Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales. The Cabinet Secretary isn't here. [Interruption.] The Cabinet Secretary has just arrived. [Laughter.] Therefore, the Cabinet Secretary arrived in time to answer questions posed to him this afternoon. And if I may also say—

I was also ever so slightly late, and I think the same issue has confused both you and me, in that the bells are not working, as we've come to rely on them. I think it's a permanent fault that we will have to live with until the end of the Senedd now, so note to self is to look at my watch or my phone, as it is these days, rather than depend on the bell. Anyway, we will now start.

who is here.

Our Wales transport strategy sets out a very clear plan for improving transport access to all key services, including hospitals. To deliver this, we're funding councils to deliver their regional transport plans, prioritising access to essential services.

Thank you for the response.

As you know, the University Hospital of Wales at the Heath is in my constituency. It's incredibly busy and it's often described as being impossible to park there. And there's been a hospital park and ride operating in Cardiff east, which has been very successful, but the word is now that that is going to close and there won't, any longer, be that possibility for patients and staff in order to access the Heath. So, I wondered if the Government had any plans to tackle this issue, because it will cause a major problem.

Can I thank Julie Morgan for her question and for raising this important matter? I understand that the public have responded in force over this issue, and I'm aware that Cardiff Council is in the process of considering the planning application for redevelopment of the Heath hospital site, which doesn't include a park and ride. But I understand that council officers meet regularly with the health board to discuss matters including this, and they're working with them to ensure that a park-and-ride facility is maintained at an alternative site.

I think, longer term, we must embrace the opportunities that bus franchising will present us—we'll be able to better design a network that connects communities with hospitals. In the meanwhile, we're using the TrawsCymru services right across Wales to better connect communities with our hospitals.

Cabinet Secretary, as you know, one in four people who use buses are either older or disabled and often don't have access to a private vehicle. You also know that there are over 220 fewer bus services across Wales, compared with five years ago. Now, I know that, in my constituency, there are many people who are concerned that they can't easily access a bus service to get to hospital. So, with that in mind, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that elderly and disabled patients in rural areas, who disproportionately rely on buses, are not left isolated due to the reduction in the bus networks when travelling to hospital appointments?

I think Peter Fox makes an important point that rural services have been particularly hard hit under the system that we've had in place since the 1980s, which will shortly be coming to an end as a result of the Bus Services (Wales) Act 2026.

We already operate a number of TrawsCymru services, as I've already outlined to Julie Morgan, that connect communities better with hospitals. They include the T1 bus, the T2 bus, the T3 and the T51. But moving forward with franchising will enable us to better design a network that meets the needs of the most vulnerable people. And the Member is absolutely right, there is a huge number of people that don't have access to a private car, and bus franchising will enable us to ensure that the bus network serves their needs rather than, under the current system, prioritising profit.

Cabinet Secretary, I've also raised with you the park and ride. I was very grateful for the answer I received from you. Many people are struggling to access emergency departments, and that's certainly true about people in the Vale of Glamorgan. From Sully, it can take an hour and a half to reach the University Hospital of Wales by public transport, one hour and a half also to the Princess of Wales Hospital, and over two hours to the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. Such significant challenges would be reduced if we used our minor injury units more. In Barry, which is only 4 miles from Sully, 100 per cent of patients were seen within the four-hour target. So, they're a real success, these minor injury units. Will you discuss with your Cabinet colleagues about how maybe we can better use our minor injury units, which can be accessed far easier by public transport, so people don't have this barrier to have the emergency services they need? Diolch yn fawr.

Yes, absolutely. I think the Member makes a really important point—that we shouldn't just consider our major hospitals in terms of the design of the network, we also need to factor into this minor injuries units and, indeed, general practitioner practices as well. We need to be able to take the strain off hospitals wherever we can. So, being able to put together a network that responds to patients' needs, regardless of where they're trying to get to, is going to be vitally important.

Our transport strategy sets out our ambition for a better, more—[Interruption.]—a better, more connected transport system across Wales. In Preseli Pembrokeshire, we will deliver projects through our national transport delivery plan. We support local leadership through regional transport plans, enabling communities to shape priorities that reflect their needs.

It does sound like a reversing lorry, somewhere, but I'm not too sure what it—. I'm sure it will be resolved quickly. Carry on with your supplementary.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. As you will be aware, I recently met Welsh Government officials with the Ceredigion Preseli MP, Ben Lake, and Fishguard and Goodwick Town Council, to discuss the long-standing road issues facing the community of Lower Town Fishguard. We had a very positive site meeting, and as we gathered for that meeting, a lorry actually became stuck, causing traffic to back up in both directions. So, if there ever was a real-life demonstration of the problems that the community are experiencing, then this was it. So, Cabinet Secretary, it's important now that meaningful action will be taken to address the problems facing the local community, particularly as officials have now seen these issues for themselves. Therefore, can you tell us how the Welsh Government is progressing these matters following the recent site visit, in order to support the local community?

Can I thank Paul Davies for the question, and also for working so constructively with Ben Lake? It is always helpful when you can work across political parties on issues such as this. I am aware of the incident that took place during that visit. I was pleased that officials from the transport department were able to accompany you to Lower Town, Fishguard.

Now, as you've outlined, the issues there are long standing. They're incredibly complex and are rooted in legacy infrastructure challenges that we need to overcome. There's no single immediate engineering fix without huge intervention. However, on the immediate situation, in terms of blockages, we do recognise the seriousness of this matter. Officials, having recently visited the site, are well aware of the physical constraints and the need for a measured and evidence-led approach. So, following that site visit, we've identified funding to ensure that we carry out exploratory work. We'll be monitoring the area so that we can objectively understand vehicle movements and target interventions effectively. We're going to be looking at enforcement as well, and also we'll be working on the footbridge issues that have been raised. So, a huge package of work will be taken forward as a result of the issues that have been raised across the Chamber.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson first—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government's road map to bus reform states that, on the initial phases of roll-out, there will be a series of franchise opportunities made available in each franchise zone. Could the Cabinet Secretary explain how these franchise opportunities within each zone have been designed and packaged, and what criteria were used in determining their structure?

Yes, of course. The franchise zones and the packages are being designed, in conjunction with bus operators, by, of course, Transport for Wales. They're best placed, as the experts in this field, to be able to design a system that doesn't just meet the needs of passengers, but which also provides maximum opportunity for existing operators in Wales.

Thank you very much for that explanation. I understand that the packaging process has been assessed through a number of lenses, including the integration of small and medium-sized enterprise providers and the provision of learner travel. During the passage and scrutiny of the legislation, I raised concerns about ensuring that bus reform in Wales supports the viability of those SME bus operators, particularly given the experience of franchising in Manchester. Similarly, Plaid Cymru consistently called for school transport to be incorporated within the Bill. Could the Cabinet Secretary outline how the packaging of franchise opportunities has been designed to support the viability of local SME bus providers, and how this approach is working in practice so far in south-west Wales? And in addition, how has the need for learner transport been reflected in those packages of contracts, and what contingencies are in place if existing school transport providers are unable to continue operating under the new arrangements?

Well, there are many questions in this, and they are very, very valid questions. I'll try to unpackage what the Member has outlined. First of all, the viability of SMEs is going to be based on their ability to be able to deliver a package of routes and a package of services. So, TfW are keenly looking at the existing landscape in terms of the routes that exist as the base network, and also the existence of SME operators and, of course, the larger operators, to be able to design packages that suit the needs and the opportunities of all businesses.

During the passage of the Bill, a lot was discussed and debated about home-to-school transport. The Bill, through amendments, recognises the need to ensure that the network responds to the need to be able to move people between essential care, essential healthcare, and, of course, education—not just schools, but higher education and further education as well. And it will be for TfW to ensure that the network, the base network, does exactly that, and that SMEs are enabled and empowered and supported to be able to bid for those contracts, and then to discharge their responsibilities accordingly, in a sustainable way.

Ultimately, it's going to be for the next Government to determine the level of funding that will be applied to the network across Wales. I hope whoever is elected in May will commit to substantial sums for the bus network, because, as Peter Fox has identified today, and as many have identified over the years, the most vulnerable people are the people who rely on our bus network the most. And so it requires, and deserves, in my view, substantial support. 

Thank you very much. More generally, then, has the Government—and, obviously, through TfW and your conversations with TfW, and holding TfW to account—encountered any challenges during that early phase of roll-out of bus reform in south-west Wales? And in light of that experience in south-west Wales, would you consider making any changes to those packaging or tendering processes ahead of the next phase of roll-out in north Wales? And then, specifically, have there been any aspects of the tendering process in south-west Wales that the Government has had to revise or revisit? And if so, what were they, and how have you managed to work with TfW to iron those things out?

Thank you. If you would just indulge me, can I just thank Peredur, and also Delyth, for being opposition spokespeople during my time in this job? There have been some moments of confrontation, but, on the whole, I think we've worked collaboratively, and I am incredibly grateful for the challenge that you've applied, but also the support that you've given on key areas of delivery, not least the bus Bill.

I think it's largely for TfW to be able to answer those questions concerning delivery. I would say, at this moment in time, that it's probably too early to say what lessons could be learnt from the south west of Wales, because the process is so, so early in the stages of procurement. So, we will, obviously, or the next Government, obviously, will be keeping Members updated on the process as it unfolds. But at this moment in time, I think it's too early to say.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Gareth Davies. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. The A55 corridor is the economic spine of north Wales, with the cross-border economy, stretching from Anglesey, through to Cheshire, and Manchester, supporting thousands of manufacturing and logistics jobs along that route. But the productivity in north-west England, Wrexham and Flintshire, which is above the UK average, is not carried along the A55 corridor. Economic productivity in Conwy and Denbighshire is just over 71 per cent of the UK figure, which is the fifth lowest in the UK, and it's even lower in Gwynedd, at just below 70 per cent.

Under a Labour UK Government, we've also seen a vast increase in universal credit claimants, from 6.9 million to a record high of 8 million. In September last year, the Senedd's Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee reported that, since it was launched in 2020, the north Wales growth deal, or ambition north Wales, has created only 35 jobs to date and attracted just £1.8 million in private investment. These results are shockingly poor, and to call it falling short of its ambition would be an understatement.

So, can the Cabinet Secretary explain how the Welsh Government is responding to lowering productivity and rising state dependency in north Wales, and, if he were to continue in his post after the election, how is he going to reverse that trend?

Can I start by thanking Gareth for the period that he's been shadowing me? Also, I know Sam's not here today, but also thanks to Sam, and of course Natasha as well. Equally, you've applied—. Oh, and Sam too. And yourself. Yes, all of you. [Laughter.] You've applied productive challenge at every opportunity, and I am sincerely grateful for it.

I feel left out.

And you of course, Paul. I think, Gareth, actually you raise a really important point about the link between public transport, or transport in general—transport infrastructure and transport services—and productivity and economic inactivity as well. There are far too many people—I think about 20 per cent in the area that you identified of young people—who don't have access to or can't afford public transport at present to get to job interviews. Now, that's totally unacceptable. You can't have young people's ambitions locked out because of a lack of public transport. So, improving the bus network is going to be vitally important.

Now, we have seen investment in the Wrexham and Flintshire investment zone that is unlocking a package of support for bus services, which will link those areas that have been poorly served to date by bus travel with the areas of highest employment opportunities, i.e. Wrexham industrial estate and Deeside industrial park. That will make a significant difference in north-east Wales. But, as we travel further west, it's vitally important that the A55 resilience study is completed as soon as possible for the incoming Government to be able to act against, and that we make good progress on rail as well.

In terms of rail, I'm delighted to say that the commitment that was made less than two years ago by the UK Government has been fulfilled. As a result of that, we will see 50 per cent more rail services from TfW from May. That will make a major difference. It's the biggest increase in Transport for Wales rail services in the north in recent memory, and it will give greater opportunities for people to be able to access jobs.

Of course, we've also got the AI growth zone, and we've got the free port, and we've got small modular reactors coming to Ynys Môn. So, in terms of productivity, those high-value jobs, they will be available, and, in terms of accessing them, we are making that historic change to improve public transport, whether it be by rail or by bus.

Thank you for that comprehensive response, Cabinet Secretary. One of the biggest barriers that's been faced in recent times under the new TfW bus service is the T51 service from Rhyl to Wrexham, which obviously goes through St Asaph business park, but what it does is it doesn't go through the lower end of St Asaph. It's been quite well publicised locally within that area and in wider communities how the T51 service isn't going through some of the major settlements of that route, which is obviously stifling people's ambitions, if it were to be the case that somebody would endeavour to look at that route to bridge the gap of employment opportunities, training, education et cetera. So, what discussions are you having as Cabinet Secretary with officials in TfW to make sure that we can fine-tune those services better within north Wales, that the routes can actually be reflective of people's needs, and be a very live situation, in that if there are problems then they can be remedied quite quickly?

Gareth makes a really important point, that you've got to be responsive when you're operating a bus network and you have to make changes if changes are necessary. As I've already outlined, the T51 already provides good access to secondary healthcare facilities, but, if there are issues concerning lower St Asaph, I'm happy to raise them with TfW. I'm conscious that we'll have dissolution soon, so we'll do that as a matter of urgency, and perhaps arrange a meeting with yourself to discuss whether the T51 bus could be better aligned with those communities along its route.

We do endeavour, through Transport for Wales, to serve the needs of communities through engagement with local authorities as well, and it's within councils—this is something that Carolyn Thomas has regularly raised—it's within councils that we've got the expertise, which then informs the bus networks. So, we will attempt to facilitate that meeting with Transport for Wales, and potentially with the local authority as well.

Thank you very much, again, Cabinet Secretary. The north Wales economy is fundamentally tied to the rest of the United Kingdom. A quarter of employees in the region cross the border to work and businesses rely on seamless trade and supply change—chains, I should say—with major economic centres in north-west England. Manufacturing and tourism in north Wales all depend heavily on those cross-border connections, and any barriers to trade movements or investment would create real uncertainty for businesses and workers alike and create further disincentives to invest there.

We all know that Plaid Cymru's ultimate goal is Welsh independence and that they are keen to start that 'journey', as they call it, and the economic and cultural impact of what would be devastating for our area. At a time when the Welsh economy already faces productivity and investment challenges, the last thing communities in north Wales need is the threat of separatism. With our net fiscal deficit of £21.5 billion, it would cause public sector cuts the likes of which we would never have seen before. Welsh families would be an average of £11,000 a year worse off. So, does the Cabinet Secretary share my concerns about the separatist threat to our region? And does he agree with me that the most destructive policy that could be enacted for north Wales would actually be Welsh independence?

It's a pleasure to end with opposition spokespeople in agreement. I would—[Interruption.] No, I would agree. I would agree that those cross-border movements are absolutely vital for our economy, and you're right, that proportion of the workforce does cross, every single day, that border. We cannot allow a slate curtain to be drawn across the border. We cannot allow services to be withdrawn on a cross-border basis. That's why we're pushing ahead with direct metro services between Wrexham and Liverpool. That's why we're pushing ahead with the smart electrification of the north Wales main line, we're dealing with the blockage at Chester station, and the electrification of the Marches line as well.

I know that there has been criticism in this Chamber of investment in Northern Powerhouse Rail. But the fact of the matter is that Northern Powerhouse Rail will slash the journey times between north Wales, Manchester Airport, Liverpool airport and key locations in the north-west of England that we rely on and that we work with for economic prosperity. So, Northern Powerhouse Rail, whilst it might not be in Wales, will undoubtedly benefit the people of Wales, and to complain about that, I think is to be rather churlish, and rather insular, and rather dangerous. [Interruption.] Gareth Davies does point to the cost of—and Mike Hedges has just amplified it again—the cost of independence. I would agree that the cost of independence would be prohibitive. Whether or not it's a good idea in terms of our national security, which is what I am most concerned about right now, the cost of independence would be prohibitive.

Well, we're taking significant and tangible steps to improve the transport network in south-east Wales. Six new railway stations will be built in south-east Wales, as part of an historic £14 billion funding commitment from the UK Government. And today, I announced approximately £50 million for council transport ambitions in the region.

Thanks ever so much for your response, Cabinet Secretary, and also thank you very much for your kind words. It was an absolute pleasure working with you for the short period that we worked on transport together.

This Labour Government, quite frankly, has done very little, in my opinion, to improve the transport network in my patch. In fact, it has actually made things worse, especially in Newport. We have ridiculous and unwanted plans to rip out the Old Green roundabout in the city centre and to replace it with traffic lights and a controlled junction. We have a ludicrous project in the pipeline to reduce traffic lanes on the A48 between Newport and Cardiff to make way for cycle and bus lanes. We have 20 mph speed limits in places where they really shouldn't be. Put simply, I feel that Labour politicians, with the help of their pals in Plaid Cymru, have been waging war on motorists for far too long, and now Reform have joined that attack against motorists.

Reform pledge to build an M4 relief road, but they are going to clobber drivers by stacking tolls on top, whereas, in stark contrast, the Welsh Conservatives have promised a raft of transport improvements, including an M4 relief road, and we won't be squeezing cash out of people to use it. So, Cabinet Secretary, given that Labour and Plaid can't be trusted to deliver transport improvements, and Reform clearly aren't on the side of motorists, do you agree with me that the only way to get Wales moving again is to return a Welsh Conservative Government to Cardiff in May?

Sorry, I can't agree with the Member on this occasion. But, no, I do find that interesting. The Conservatives are promising to deliver an M4 relief road, but haven't been able to cost it yet, and it would come with a huge price tag. Reform are promising to deliver an M4 relief road that will be paid for by motorists. We have secured the funding to be able to deliver a sustainable alternative, and we are powering ahead with the delivery of those new stations and those new rail services. We've got the new six stations that are going to be built in south-east Wales, alleviating congestion on the M4, but crucially as well—crucially as well—we are commencing that M4 resilience study, which will inform the next Government on what more can be done to address congestion on the M4 and to futureproof it in terms of climate change.

Cabinet Secretary, this will likely be the last question I ask you in this current Senedd, so I do want to thank you for your engagement on many issues, and particularly on the issue that I'm about to ask you about, which is transport accessibility. Public transport should be accessible to everyone, but too often a lack of adequate street lighting can put women in vulnerable positions, stopping them from using these services. Similarly, a lack of audio announcements on buses or badly designed stations can make people who are blind or partially sighted more vulnerable, and a lack of lifts can exclude people in wheelchairs from being able to access the network safely. In all of these instances, a vulnerability or an exclusion is created by how our society is designed. There is nothing inevitable about that vulnerability, that exclusion; our choices create them. And there's so much we can do to change them as well. Do you agree with me that TfW, our bus network, local authorities and the next Government must do all that they can to change this and to challenge those assumptions about who is vulnerable in our society and make changes so that public transport truly works for everyone?

I'm delighted that Delyth has tabled this question, because it gives me another opportunity to thank her for all that she's done. We've worked very well together, I think, on the 'Travel for all' agenda, and we've had numerous meetings about accessibility, and I'm pleased with the progress that we've made. But that progress must be maintained beyond May. I had a quadrilateral meeting earlier this week with other Ministers. Fiona Hyslop is the transport Minister in Scotland and is retiring at this election. I've worked closely with her in this area and, of course, with Heidi Alexander at Westminster. One of the agenda items was safety on public transport. We are all concerned, not just about safety for passengers but also safety for the workforce. I met recently with Unite the Union, who raised concerns about safety for bus drivers and, whether it's perceived or real, it's a major barrier and deterrent for women to become bus drivers. Only 7 per cent of bus drivers in one of Wales's largest bus fleets are women. The fear of going to work should not stop somebody from applying for a job, and so we committed in that quadrilateral to work together beyond elections to ensure that we prioritise safety for passengers and for the workforce.

We've got the access and inclusion panel in place at TfW, we've empowered it as well in the past 24 months, making sure that it's at the centre of all design and delivery, and we're looking at how we can improve safety at and safety to the 23,000 bus stops and bus shelters that we have across Wales. We're carrying out that audit at the moment and, as a result of some of the changes we made around regional transport grants, and specifically active travel grants, more has been done this year on the ground to make important changes, whether it be to apply more tactile paving or improve street lighting, or even some of the simpler things, like making sure that you've got seats along the route to a bus stop—it all makes a difference. Again, whether it's real or perceived, the threat of being abused or attacked is a major barrier to people accessing public transport that we must prioritise and do more on through the coming months and years.

Cabinet Secretary, I'm aware that the leader of Monmouthshire County Council wrote to you, I think at the beginning of this month, about the need for a small link road connecting the M48 with the Severn Tunnel Junction park-and-ride train station in Rogiet in my Newport East constituency. That Severn tunnel station is not fully utilised at the moment, and in fact there's quite a big, newly built car park that is largely empty. A link road would make it a much more practical and attractive option for people in south Monmouthshire, particularly, commuting to Newport, Cardiff, Bristol and Gloucester. I know that you're aware of the issues, Cabinet Secretary, and indeed you've expressed support for such a link road in the past. I just wonder what you can say about next steps that you might take in Welsh Government, working with Monmouthshire County Council, to make that link road a reality. 

I thank John Griffiths for his question. I'm very supportive of this measure and I have met with the leader of the council on a number of occasions, and the lead member for transport as well. The next stage will be to carry out detailed design before construction. Of course, it will be for the next Government to provide the support for that, but I am very supportive, and I hope that whomever is transport Minister after May will take this work forward at maximum pace, because it is an essential piece of infrastructure and an essential project, I believe, not just for the local authority, but for the wider region as well.

Firstly, Cabinet Secretary, can I say ‘thank you’ for the interest you've shown and work you've done on specific issues in my region on transport? It's been great to work with you.

But I'm also glad that you agree with me that this is back-of-the-fag-packet economic policy that we've just heard from the Tories, isn't it? Reform are a party preparing for government with a credible costed plan that is serious about delivering the long-awaited M4 relief road.

'We'll need some sort of relief road'—

words not from me, Cabinet Secretary, but from your own Labour leader of Newport City Council. Many that use the M4 don't have any other option but to use that. For freight, for tourism, for inward investment, for jobs, it is a vital road. This part of the M4 in Newport is the economic gateway, it's the main artery into Wales. We need to unclog it, we need to open it up and provide an M4 relief road that will deliver economic benefits, jobs and ease to my constituents and the people of Wales. Reform will deliver it. Your own party spent millions preparing to build it and then wasted millions of taxpayers’ money when you pulled the plug on it. Don't you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that there can be no more delay? We need an M4 relief road in Newport to ensure prosperity, and we need it now. Diolch.

Can I thank Laura Anne Jones for her question and also for the many questions and challenges that she's given me over the years, and for organising one of the most interesting site visits that I've had? It was a very, very interesting active travel project that Laura Anne Jones showed me last summer.

Look, I've had some really weird dreams in recent months, but nothing compares to what I've just been seeing between yourself and the Tories, the attack and the counter-attack. When it comes to the M4, this debate has been and gone, and we are ploughing ahead with hugely ambitious plans to improve connectivity by public transport, sustainable connectivity. The cost of building an M4 relief road right now would be enormous, and it does need to be a costed proposition, I believe, and it can't be, whether it's from yourselves or the Conservatives, a back-of-the-fag-packet proposal. And when it comes to making pledges, from Reform there have been so many pledges and then corrections made by Nigel Farage that it seems it's only Nigel Farage that really has a say over policy, and that includes policy here in Wales, I'm afraid.

We work closely with Carmarthenshire County Council to improve road safety. Through our grant funding, we are supporting road safety infrastructure schemes, education schemes, and also safer conditions for active travel. We are also progressing work on safety improvements on the trunk road network.

The A48 between Cross Hands and Carmarthen has an incredibly poor record when it comes to safety. In the 10-year period until 2018, for example, there were almost 900 road traffic collisions recorded, and I've written to the Cabinet Secretary many times on this. Statistically, things are getting worse. There's an average now of about an incident every other day. I find it incredible that it has been six years since the Welsh transport appraisal guidance stage 1 process started in relation to this road. I use these junctions. It is an absolutely frightening experience when you're on your own, and when you have kids in the car as well, it's just completely unacceptable.

The options study was published last week, and that is welcome, but given how slow the process has been to date, when can my constituents in Carmarthenshire expect those options to be acted upon, so we can improve the safety on this road?

Can I thank Adam for his question? I’d just remind him that over £900,000 has been provided to Carmarthen to deliver road safety capital schemes in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr since 2018. That includes on the A485, the B4333, and numerous other roads, and, on top of that, we've also provided revenue funding as well to Carmarthen to deliver road safety initiatives. The Member is absolutely right, it was some time ago that the WelTAG study into the safety of this section of the A48 was commissioned, but I am pleased to say that, as a result of the work that's been carried out, officials are currently appraising a series of road improvements on the A48 between Cross Hands and Carmarthen, and I hope that the next Government will deliver them at pace.

We're progressing the major asset renewal scheme at junctions 45 to 46 and undertaking a wider M4 resilience review to identify longer term improvements for reliability and congestion. These measures are supported daily by Welsh Government traffic officers, who patrol the M4 and manage incidents quickly to keep traffic flowing around Swansea.

Can I thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary, and thank those M4 traffic officers for their work? They do a fantastic job. You will know that I have asked you on a number of occasions about the proposed junction upgrades along the M4—at 45 in Ynysforgan, at 47 in Penllergaer, and at 48 near Pontarddulais—that were promised as part of the M4 relief road package, and then when the M4 relief road was cancelled by the Welsh Government, these junction upgrades in the Swansea area, and in other places along the M4, did not go ahead. I've asked you over the past couple of years, since you've been in this role, to look at that decision again, so that even if the M4 relief road project isn't revitalised by this Welsh Government, these junction upgrades can be, because many of my constituents sit in traffic, in places like Penllergaer and Ynysforgan roundabout, because of the capacity issues that currently exist at those junctions, and that is why these junction upgrades were part of the plan to upgrade the M4 before the M4 relief road project was cancelled. So, given that this is the last question session we have before the Senedd election, you've said in the past you'll look at it, what's the answer?

Well, I'm pleased to say that design and development work is continuing at junctions 45 and 46. In terms of elsewhere on the M4 around Swansea, of course, we've got the resilience study that's going to be informing the incoming Government. In addition to this, we now have a commitment to deliver the Swansea bay and west Wales metro, which will see a series of railway stations opened, and smart electrification across that region, which will help, in turn, alleviate congestion on the roads, not just the M4, but also local roads.

Motorway traffic flow is affected by junctions, hills, slow-moving lorries and the number of lanes. Where you have hills, only two lanes and junctions close together, you get slow-moving traffic. Around Swansea, there are junctions for the city centre, for Swansea bay and the enterprise zone, at Llandarcy there's the Heads of the Valleys interchange with the M4, and at Ynysforgan, the motorway interchange with the road to the Swansea valley. I have previously suggested that lorries at peak times should not be allowed to use the second lane. Something that would help improve traffic flow is the long-awaited resurfacing of Llangyfelach to Ynysforgan. Is there a date for this resurfacing to take place?

Can I thank Mike Hedges? He's absolutely right: there are a number of factors that impact on motorway traffic flow, including, as he's outlined, road condition. We, as a Government, have spent considerable sums of money in the past financial year improving the condition of the strategic road network, and indeed local roads as well. We fixed or prevented 200,000 potholes. We know, because of the peak in potholes recently, had we not carried out that work, the roads would have been in far worse condition. So, it's absolutely vital that whomever is elected post May continues that good work in improving road surfaces.

The road surface work that Mike has identified is going to be part of the major asset renewal programme and, once design work has been completed, I will provide specific dates for the resurfacing works to commence. Some sections, particularly between junctions 45 and 46, have been resurfaced recently, specifically the main line eastbound approach and the westbound departure from junction 45, but we're keen to make sure that the condition of the entire stretch is improved.

Yes, of course. We're taking forward work in conjunction with the UK Government and with Transport for Wales to deliver this and the other stations across south-east Wales as part of the Burns recommendations. I look forward to working in the future with the region, with the local authority, Transport for Wales and UK Government to see these huge aspirations realised.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. Can I start by thanking you for your decency, integrity and friendship through my time in this place? Members will be familiar with the Cardiff parkway proposals, not just from my regular questions, but of course it's a business park enabled by a new mainline-access station within the industrial strategy zone. Importantly, it's backed by the Welsh Government, UK Government and the Cardiff capital region. It's now passed through the latest stage of the business case, and I'm keen to see progress made on the wider offer, which has the compound semiconductor cluster at its heart, opportunities here in south Cardiff for science and innovation, and indeed the parkway opportunity itself. The parkway funding confirmation between the UK Government and Welsh Government is hugely important and welcome.

Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary two specific points? The relief line alignment work is a reserved matter and will require partnership with the UK Government and Network Rail to be a success. Can the Cabinet Secretary set out when he expects more detailed design and delivery work to commence on this aspect of the proposal? And what work are his officials undertaking with the Cardiff capital region and Transport for Wales on the role that TfW can play in the delivery and operation of the new station, especially given the work that the award-winning team at TfW has already delivered on the south Wales metro project? 

Well, can I thank Vaughan Gething for his question and interest and promotion of this scheme, and also thank him, as he leaves the Senedd at the next election, for his friendship and his enormous contribution over many years to Welsh democracy? The station that Vaughan has championed, Cardiff parkway, is vitally important to the economic future of the region. It will unlock huge job opportunities and provide better connectivity between key communities. I'm pleased to say that the business case is being finalised. I understand it's going to be submitted this month for final approval. Design work will happen and be completed this calendar year, and construction will take place between 2027 and 2029. Vaughan Gething is absolutely right that it will require a one-team approach. So, we've set up a single team to deliver this work, which will see Transport for Wales and Network Rail working together. Transport for Wales will take a particular leadership role in terms of station design. Network Rail, of course, with it being heavy rail, will take leadership of the actual line work, but they will be working seamlessly as one single team across the region. 

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I took the chance that you weren't going to call me on that, because we've gone past question 5. Right, I better think—

I've caught Andrew R.T. Davies out at last. [Laughter.]

Talking of business parks, transport Minister, it's good to hear that Cardiff parkway has made some progress, and not before time, but the key word that the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth used there was that the parkway was enabling the business park to come forward. In my region as a whole, there are several business parks that would benefit from improved transport links. In St Athan, I have pressed you on several occasions why the Welsh Government hasn't been more ferocious in its backing to put the station in the village of St Athan that would enable greater development of the RAF St Athan site and the old Aberthaw site. Now, sadly, the UK Labour Government has not taken any moves to progress this. Under Alun Cairns, the MP for the Vale of Glamorgan, the business case was being developed. After the general election, it was stopped. Why is Welsh Labour so against the station in St Athan?

Well, we regularly discuss this together, Jane Hutt and I, and I'm delighted to say that as a good result of the collaboration between Welsh Government and UK Government, we saw in the publication of 'Today, Tomorrow, Together' a commitment to take forward that station at St Athan. It will be incredibly valuable, again, not just for the immediate community, but for the wider region. I'm delighted that it's happening as a result of the UK Government commitment to deliver that £14 billion package of projects across Wales.

The Cardiff parkway proposals were supported by the Welsh Government on the basis that the rail elements would be fully funded by the private sector. As part of the recently announced shared vision for rail, the Cabinet Secretary announced that the Cardiff parkway will now be funded by the Welsh Government after all, alongside the UK Government and private investors.

In a written answer to me, the Cabinet Secretary said the funding contribution from the Welsh Government would be dependent on the development work. What are the assumptions of the proportion of costs that the Welsh Government has agreed to pay—I can't believe we've signed a blank cheque—and what is the rough working assumption of the amount of finance from the transport budgets that this will need?

No blank cheque has been signed. It's a shame to be raising questions of this nature, because, actually, it's the jobs that count, it's the opportunity that counts, for people. This will be a major enabler for economic prosperity in the region. The approach that's being taken is an approach that will see private sector funding, UK Government funding and Welsh Government funding deliver. But, obviously, we are keen to maximise the private sector contribution and to ensure, through development work, that we minimise the cost to the taxpayer. But by working together across Governments and with the private sector, we will be taking forward not just five stations in south-east Wales, but six stations, alleviating congestion on the M4 and ensuring that we provide high-quality jobs for people who are currently locked out of the jobs market.

Our transport strategy sets out our vision to improve transport across Wales. We will deliver this vision in west Wales through the projects set out in our national transport delivery plan. We’re also empowering local leaders through regional transport plans to shape transport priorities that reflect the needs of their communities.

Cabinet Secretary, you'll be aware that I've raised the A477 trunk road  in this Chamber and with you on a number of occasions. It's an arterial route in and out of Pembrokeshire, connecting to key routes such as the M4 and the ferry crossing to Rosslare from Pembroke Dock. One of my proudest achievements during the sixth Senedd has been improving safety at the Nash Fingerpost junction, which, as you are aware, was previously the site of a number of serious accidents and fatalities. This followed persistent nagging from me and a petition with over 10,000 signatures. The smart traffic light system and improvements have been transformational. However, safety issues remain at other key points on this route: speeding at Milton, the Cosheston turning, and whether or not the new signage at the Red Roses junction will make a difference. This is why I've called for a full safety review of the A477 from Pembroke Dock to St Clears. In one of your possibly final acts as Cabinet Secretary for transport, will you sign off that review so that travellers along the A477 have reassurance that that road is safe?

Can I thank Sam for his question? I'm delighted that this Welsh Labour Government has been investing so heavily in south-west Wales, and specifically in his constituency. Improving roads and fixing roads has been a top priority of the First Minister. As a result of that, we've not just seen new roads open; we've seen roads resurfaced, we've seen potholes fixed and prevented. I'm very pleased to hear what the Member has outlined about the benefits of the A477 Nash improvements. Obviously, a full post-construction monitoring and safety audit will be carried out, but the initial findings are very positive indeed, as the Member has outlined.

Elsewhere on the A477, at Red Roses, we've installed new safety measures at the junction, including, I believe, much improved signalling and signage. We've improved the markings and the bollards to highlight the junction. That's the first, actually, of its kind on the strategic road network in Wales, so it's going to prove to be a pathfinder for other areas. Construction of the speed enforcement lay-by to help reduce vehicle speeds on the road approaches is nearly complete and will be completed in this financial year. We'll carry out, again, a post-scheme monitoring exercise in 2026-27, in line with requirements and the road safety audit process.

Obviously, there are other areas of concern—the Member has outlined them—including the issue of speeding on the A477 at Milton. I believe that officials have confirmed already that a speed survey at that particular point has been funded, so we'll await work from that. Also, we'll be working with GoSafe to investigate whether a speed camera is required on the A477 at Milton. 

I'm pleased to say that the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip issued a statement just this morning setting out how we're using our own budgets this year to increase support to people facing financial crisis right now, including uplifting the financial assistance that can be provided for off-grid fuel while prices are currently inflated.

Diolch. Of course, we go back to your days as senior reporter on the Flintshire Evening Leader. Last week, I was contacted on behalf of pensioners and low-income families in Trelawnyd and surrounding areas in Flintshire, whose heating oil price had risen from £300 to almost £800 for 500 litres, and who are struggling to fill their tanks. In Ynys Môn, 53 per cent of households, and in Gwynedd 49 per cent of households, are not connected to mains gas, many reliant on heating oil for warmth and hot water. Citizens Advice Cymru reports that one local resident in Ynys Môn was quoted £1,000 to fill their heating oil tank, up from £370 just two months previously. This is an overnight crisis for rural families.

The Welsh Government is now set to receive £3.8 million from the UK Government's new heating oil support package, and the Scottish Government said it will more than double the £4.6 million offered to Scotland. Yet the social justice Secretary here, in the statement you referred to, has stated only that the Welsh Government will develop options for deployment of this. How, therefore, will the Welsh Government target that support to reach those most in need? In what form? And will this be limited to those already receiving benefits, which may exclude people on similarly low incomes such as ill health pensions?

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for his question? Of course, the reason that we're in this situation is because of the conflict that's taking place in the middle east. It's a conflict that I believe the Prime Minister was absolutely right not to commit British forces to. I know that the Conservatives have said that we should've been in there from the start; I believe Keir Starmer has made absolutely the right call in ensuring that British interests are served best.

In terms of the impact that it's having, there are approximately 100,000 households in Wales that rely on heating oil. Yes, many upland and rural communities, including those that Mark Isherwood has identified, are fully reliant on heating oil, including my family members in Cilcain and Pantymwyn, which I know the Member is very familiar with. The proportion across certain constituencies is pretty eye-watering: Isle of Anglesey 21.6 per cent, Gwynedd 16.9 per cent—huge numbers of houses that are dependent on heating oil.

My friend and colleague Jane Hutt will be answering questions shortly, but I can say that this was a subject of discussion at Cabinet on Monday. Jane Hutt is doing all she can to support households that rely on oil for heating and hot water, utilising the money that the UK Government has made available, but also utilising some of our existing funds, which have proven so vital over the years.

When I look to the role of the discretionary assistance fund during COVID, it was a lifesaver. That particular fund will be used, I believe, to deliver two things: the increase in financial assistance, and also they'll be looking at increasing the frequency that people are able to claim support from once to twice in a rolling 12-month period. That's going to be hugely important for households across Wales. But it's perhaps best for me to leave these detailed questions about this particular crisis and the Welsh Government's response to my friend and colleague Jane Hutt.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and the first question is from Heledd Fychan.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware of the recent joint statement by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and Cwmpas, voicing the clear warnings by Wales's voluntary and social enterprise sectors, which also echo growing evidence I'm hearing from local organisations, of a pending crisis in the availability of funding. Too many organisations who play such a vital role in providing services in our communities are warning that they may not be able to carry on, that they may have to close completely, and the impact this will have on those they support is unimaginable. So, what urgent steps are the Welsh Government taking to protect the third sector and prevent the loss of skilled staff and vital preventative services in the immediate future? 

Thank you very much for your question. 

Of course, there's no question that the third sector provides such important and valuable services to communities and people most in need of support. We're aware that the third sector is facing increased demand for services, pressures on income, as you said, rising costs and challenges. I met with the third sector partnership council very recently, which I chair, and heard views from all of the sectors represented. Of course, what has been very important is that we've initiated and issued this new updated code of practice for funding, working to ensure that the third sector particularly benefits from multi-annual funding arrangements, not just from the Welsh Government in terms of the funding that I've already announced, but also encouraging all other statutory partners who fund the sector as well. This is something where I think our community facilities programme, providing capital grants, has been crucially important.

It is a matter of working with the sector to ensure that they can access the support, like the £1.5 million Newid programme. In fact, that is a partnership with the Welsh Council for Voluntary Action, ProMo Cymru and Cwmpas to provide support, including coaching and mentoring, training and digital skills. Also, I'm very pleased that we've extended the community asset loan fund with £10.5 million of financial transactions capital. So, there are ways in which we're putting more funding into the third sector, but also stressing the need for authorities who fund the third sector to implement the code of practice.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys ab Owen. The Welsh Government delivers employability programmes for young women, such as Communities for Work Plus, Jobs Growth Wales Plus and the economic inactivity trailblazers. These programmes directly support young women by actively engaging with them and delivering tailored assistance to address barriers to employment. 

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. There's been good news, according to Welsh Government data, with regard to the number of young men not participating in the economy going down year on year since 2022, but that hasn't been the case when it comes to young women. That has risen year on year since 2022. The percentage of young women in Wales not in education, employment or training is now seemingly worse than it was during lockdown, according to Welsh Government provisional data.

We know, of course, that when women are in poverty, it doesn't just affect them—it's more likely to affect the whole family and lead to children living in poverty, something that we hear often in this place, about the number of children living in poverty in Wales. It will also, of course, follow them throughout their lives. It is estimated that, in the UK, the gender pension gap is twice as big as the gender pay gap. Does the Cabinet Secretary know the reasons for the trend in Wales for young women since 2022, and what is happening to tackle that economic inequality facing women in Wales that appears to be increasing? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr. The Welsh Government has gathered and reviewed evidence concerning the number of young women aged 19 to 24 who are NEET—not in employment, education or training—and we are considering the impact this trend has had on equality, poverty and Wales's long-term prosperity as we work on both current programmes and the new employability support programme.

I'm sure you're aware of Communities for Work Plus. The mentors that are working locally are proactively engaging with young women. They're engaging with them at leisure centres, school entrances, childcare facilities, family hubs, foodbanks and local events. That's a targeted approach to facilitate meaningful connections with women, particularly mothers and carers, who may face challenges attending scheduled appointments during standard operating hours. Of course, this is a joint effort with the UK Government in terms of the Department for Work and Pensions's responsibility for benefits, conditionality, Jobcentre Plus services, et cetera.

I think we have got some good case studies. For example, a 23-year-old long-term unemployed young woman was referred to Communities for Work Plus by the Rhondda Cynon Taf young adult carers support project. She had been a carer for her mother since the age of six and experienced low social confidence and anxiety about entering the labour market. Support was focused on helping her access voluntary opportunities to build experience, skills and confidence as a first step towards future employment.

But finally, I would say that the young person's guarantee is vital in terms of opportunities for those young people under the age of 25: flexible, tailored pathways back into education, training or work, and recognising that young parents and carers, of course, may need support in terms of access to childcare. And, of course, we have also done some gender budgeting on this with personal learning accounts.

I thank Rhys ab Owen for asking this question, because, Cabinet Secretary, this is another damning indictment of the Welsh Labour Government's 27 years of failure. Not only do we have a health system on its knees, but our education system has geared young people up for unemployment through the lack of focus on attainment, vocational support, or support for their future careers. This is no reflection at all on the hard-working teachers who, day in, day out, do their absolute best for our children and young people, yet have faced untold pressures placed upon them by your Government's policies.

On top of that, it has been shown that national insurance and minimum wage increases, introduced by your Labour colleagues in Westminster, have actually pushed young people out of employment, as employers seek to reduce their hiring costs by cutting back entry-level and part-time roles. Now youth unemployment in Wales stands at 16.3 per cent—up nearly 10 per cent from 2014.

So, Cabinet Secretary, in light of everything I have said so far, would you agree with me that both the Westminster Government and Welsh Government have hindered the outcomes of young women here in Wales? Thank you.

Well, I know that you're reading a script, which comes before every question from a Conservative, but I do wish, Natasha, that perhaps you'd listen to my answers to Rhys ab Bowen, when I am talking about the proactive ways in which we are trying to address the really important issues. I know that we both share that concern about young women—we both share that. Now, let's move proactively and positively on to what we're doing about it. I've mentioned Communities for Work Plus, I've mentioned, of course, the young person's guarantee and the fact that we are working through our new employability support programme.

I think it's really important that we just look at the young person's guarantee, because it's ensuring that young women up to the age of 25 can access co-ordinated support, and it's about reflecting their individual circumstances. And overall, the young person's guarantee has supported 64,000 young people since November 2021, including 10,000 young people progressing into employment.

So, we do want to—. I'm sure that you want to see what is working and progress that. And I think, also, it's important if I just say that the economic inactivity trailblazers—that's working with the UK Government, Neath Port Talbot, Denbighshire and Blaenau Gwent, and I know that you will be interested in that—are testing new approaches with young people. And they're looking at barriers to work, such as health conditions, and whether there are caregiving duties and health issues that can actually prevent them from going back to work. But I hope that you will see that, as a result of all these interventions, this is having a positive impact to enable young women to get into work and education.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. As this Senedd term comes to an end, one failure above all others, I believe, is a stain on its record: after more than a quarter of a century of a Welsh Labour Government, one in three of all children in Wales live in poverty. And the outlook is even more worrying. The Bevan Foundation's analysis in a report published this week shows that child poverty is projected to rise to 34.5 per cent by 2029, even after the welcome and long-overdue scrapping of the two-child cap, and notes that Welsh Government strategies have been too broad, outdated, unfocused and lack measurable targets.

The report also says that many of the most impactful actions taken by various Welsh Labour Governments have been the result of ad hoc agreements with opposition parties, often following public pressure, such as the delivery of universal free school meals for primary children with Plaid Cymru, rather than the result of a strategic approach. So, what does the Cabinet Secretary believe this Government should have done differently as regards its strategy to reduce child poverty?

Thank you for that question, and I welcome the question. I have to say that, having had many, many questions over the years, it's really important to have scrutiny based on evidence and engagement, so I welcome the question, because I have also, obviously, seen this Bevan Foundation report. I always look to the evidence that we can get for those who are at the sharp end. I really do value the Bevan Foundation, and many other organisations, but it's a particularly important social research body that we look to.

I recognise the long way that we need to go in order to address child poverty. We're determined to do all we can to prevent people from falling into poverty, particularly children and young people. But obviously, I would also say that we have worked together very, very constructively, haven't we, in order to roll out free school meals for all our primary school pupils. It's not just that particular initiative, which was part of a strategic co-operation agreement—really important in terms of what that means to tackling poverty—but also, of course, I played my part with the UK child poverty taskforce, and pressed and pressed. I was glad I had support for that, from my Welsh Labour colleagues, and, indeed, from yourselves, and that we got rid of the two-benefit cap, so that 69,000 children now benefit from that and are being brought out of poverty.

So, yes, there is more we can do, but we have invested over £7 billion between 2022 and 2026 to support households, through programmes to alleviate financial pressures. It's very clear that our child poverty strategy, and having that strategy, came through our children's rights Measure, back in 2011. It is really important that we look to that child poverty strategy and deliver on it, because the evidence for those objectives and actions came from children and young people themselves.

Diolch. I want to turn now to this Welsh Government's progress on addressing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Ask and Act is a key, mandatory training initiative under the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, training public sector staff to identify and respond to abuse, and forms a key part of the Welsh Government's VAWDASV strategy. Freedom of information requests carried out by Welsh Women's Aid have found a huge and alarming inconsistency on take-up of Ask and Act training across NHS Wales, ranging from 74 per cent in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board to 2 per cent in Cardiff and Vale Health Board. Most shockingly, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board said they were not aware of Ask and Act training being available, and therefore had 0 per cent of staff trained. Have you been monitoring take-up of this crucial and mandatory training, and how did you expect your VAWDASV strategy to succeed, given this failure to ensure that staff across health boards are trained to recognise signs of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and to make targeted inquiries to support victims?

Clearly, the training is absolutely vital, because of the statutory duties that local authorities and health boards have under the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act. I think it's very welcome, just in terms of the women's health plan and the women's health hubs that are now being set up, that, in fact, domestic violence is part of the expectations of the health hubs, to look at this from a health perspective. But I think it is important to look at the national training framework, which is part of our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy—the national training framework. We've provided £1.6 million via that framework for VAWDASV, to ensure professionals across the public and third sectors can access that relevant training. It's statutory guidance that they must address this training. Contracts have been awarded for the training for the coming year. Of course, Ask and Act is the process of a targeted inquiry across the relevant authorities that are named in the VAWDASV Act. We've done an evaluation of VAWDASV, and have also developed, as a result of that, very bespoke bystander intervention programme training as well. Of course, working very closely with our specialist sector, Welsh Women's Aid, BAWSO, who sit on our national strategy board, which I co-chair with Emma Wools, the Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales, we see where we need to ensure that we have comprehensive delivery, statutorily based, and, particularly, training is very important.

You didn't answer my question as to whether you would be monitoring whether that training had happened. Perhaps you can address that in your next reply.

One of the other main failures, I would say, of consecutive Welsh Labour Governments, which has contributed to the undermining of your social justice policies, has been the failure to devolve justice to Wales. We have often spoken, haven't we, Cabinet Secretary, in these question sessions, about the effect of the jagged edge on some of the most vulnerable Welsh citizens.

The Thomas commission on justice in Wales made 78 recommendations. Yet, as was highlighted in Dr Rob Jones's recent report, presented to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, which provided an update on the progress made against each of the commission's recommendations since 2019, only three have been fully implemented. Women in the justice system, as we know, are particularly affected. In 2024 38 per cent of women on trial in the Crown Court were remanded in custody—the highest rate since records began—while immediate custodial sentences for women rose by 13 per cent, and short sentences increased by 51 per cent. 

In his conclusion, Dr Rob Jones states, and I quote:

'it is regrettable that the Commission’s report has not acted as a stronger intellectual basis and guiding influence over the Welsh Government's work on justice during the Sixth Senedd. Although its ambition to pursue legislative devolution has ultimately been frustrated by the UK Government’s unwillingness to engage seriously on constitutional matters, the Welsh Government’s failure to implement the recommendations that fall squarely within its remit undoubtedly represents a missed opportunity'.

Why, in your view, hasn't there been progress on this during the sixth Senedd?

Well, the progress that has been made, when it is a jagged edge, and you're quite right, justice is not devolved—. Where we do have responsibilities, we developed a blueprint, with the UK Government, and Ministry of Justice, to deliver a women's justice blueprint. And as a result of that, investment and support for women, to keep them out of the justice system, has been very effective. 

But also I have to say Dr Robert Jones's last fact file showed very worrying trends in terms of women being caught in the justice system, particularly into remand and short-stay sentences, which are totally counterproductive in terms of women, their own circumstances, and particularly children. We then held a round-table, which Rob Jones—Dr Jones—spoke at, with people from the courts, from the police, from social services, from health, from the specialist sector, where we discussed how we could overcome these issues.

Of course, we are making progress with a residential women's centre in Swansea, and I hope you have seen the report that was published on Tuesday, in terms of the women's justice board, on which we had a Welsh representative, and some very important recommendations, which are very much in line with the issues that we want to address.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Altaf Hussain. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, as this is the last time I will be questioning you in this manner, I just wanted to thank you for all the briefings et cetera over the years. And while we did not always agree with each other, our dealings have been professional and courteous. 

In the closing minutes of the sixth Senedd, we should take an opportunity to look back at our achievements over the past five years. One of your priorities was making Wales safer for women and children. How do you think this has gone?

Diolch yn fawr, and thank you for your kindness and courtesy, indeed, in your shadow role in terms of social justice, which has also been very beneficial, because we can always learn from each other and progress together. 

I'm very frustrated in terms of the fact that we still live in a time when women continually—. Well, the state of violence against women is as bad as ever, if not getting worse. And I think this is a symptom of the society that we live in, and therefore—. And we've just had very relevant questions about our interventions in terms of, not only groundbreaking legislation such as the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, 10 years on, but statutory duties, monitoring, on every front, and I will say absolutely monitoring on training as well to all those who have statutory duties.

But it's actually also really important that we do see this as a priority. I think actually it is a priority that is shared across this Chamber—it has been—in terms of support for the White Ribbon campaign every year, and also recognising that this is something where we need to have local government, we need to have more powers in relation to justice, and also to the specialist sector, and of course funding to the specialist sector has increased year on year.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Sadly, the evidence shows that Wales is not safe. Across the United Kingdom last year, 90 women were murdered by their partners; 10 of those were in Wales. We have seen an uptick in sexual violence in Wales, and over 40,000 women and girls falling victim to stalking and sexual harassment. One of the root causes is the huge rise in misogyny amongst Gen Z men and boys: 16 to 24-year-old men are far more likely to believe that women should obey them than any other current generations. This is partly fuelled by social media algorithms—the likes of Meta and TikTok algorithms—for their generation. With the likes of Meta and TikTok making decisions that allow more harmful content on people's feeds, after internal research into their algorithms showed how outrage fuels engagement and therefore bolsters their balance sheets, how are you working across Government to combat this worrying trend?

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. Of course, it's quite clear that Welsh Government has always been absolutely committed to ending all violence against women and girls, and that's why we've got the programme of government commitment to strengthening the VAWDASV strategy. It actually includes a focus not just on violence against women in the home, but in the street and the workplace, to make sure that Wales is a safe place for women to live.

I think this is something where the interventions that we've been discussing are really important, like our Live Fear Free helpline, a free 24/7 service for all victims and survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence. Also, it's raising awareness of stalking, harassment, abuse and violence against women and girls in all aspects of life.

But I'm glad you've also recognised and focused on the rise of misogyny. I've said this is a societal problem. I'm also pleased that we have invested in our Sound campaign, which is directly targeting men, engaging men, and young men particularly, to try and address this toxic masculinity that leads to misogyny and abuse of women.

I think this is something where—. Only two weeks ago, we were out on the steps marking the anniversary of the horrific killing of Sarah Everard. Only this last week, we saw the horrendous headlines of the young woman who was murdered by her husband out of jealousy and buried in the garden. I mean this is horrific for the twenty-first century and where we are today. But I'm glad you've mentioned those issues, because this is about education and ensuring that our children grow up to be ethical and informed citizens who respect each other. That is absolutely the point and the objective of our curriculum, which is now rolling out across Wales for three-year-olds upwards, and is making a difference.

I'm grateful, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, the majority of levers to tackle the rise of sexual violence lie within Westminster. However, with a number of high-ranking Labour MPs currently being investigated for sexual violence or links to paedophiles, can we really trust them to address the issue head on? A whistleblower has highlighted how senior Labour figures prevented investigations into rape gangs in a number of cities across the United Kingdom. I believe the best way to protect women and girls is for an independent Wales-wide inquiry into grooming gangs. Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in supporting victims and survivors by calling on the next Welsh Government to urgently set up such an inquiry? Thank you very much.

We've just launched our 10-year strategy for preventing and responding to child sexual abuse. I hope you will have seen that. The focus remains on delivering the recommendations of the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. It is important that we let that child sexual abuse strategy now be implemented. 

Thank you very much, Mabon am Gwynfor, for your very important question. 

Over this Senedd term we've provided over £1 million in funding for specialist violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence organisations in north Wales, as well as over £2 million in capital funding for the domestic abuse safety unit. In addition, we've provided over £3.8 million in core funding to the north Wales VAWDASV region.

I've been made aware of cases in north Wales where victims, including children and young people, are having to travel out of area to Merseyside for forensic medical examinations following sexual assault due to a shortage of forensic medical examiners in north Wales. One recent victim was the subject of a drug rape on a Thursday, but couldn't attend the sexual assault referral centre until the afternoon of the Saturday, as there was no forensic medical examiner available in north Wales. This meant that she was not able to wash for 36 hours and no bloods were taken until the Saturday, which is crucial when drugs are allegedly used. Given the distress this causes and the barriers it creates to engage with the criminal justice system, what urgent action are you taking to improve access to sexual assault referral centres and, more importantly in this case, ensure sufficient FME provision in north Wales?

Well, it's very regrettable that you have to bring this horrific account that that survivor has suffered, and thank you for sharing it with us. It just shows the scale of the problem that we've got to address, and it is a serious problem where all in authority have got to take responsibility. I think, just in terms of north Wales, the Welsh Government provides revenue and funding to specialist organisations. I know you're aware of the rape and sexual abuse support centre and Stepping Stones. They offer dedicated support to survivors of sexual violence. But, again, for future funding—because funding is often also underpinning access to that support that that survivor needed—we're doing a Wales-wide review and mapping exercise of support services and access for victims of sexual assault.

Can I just draw attention briefly to the independent sexual violence advisers? They're vital in supporting victims of sexual violence through the criminal justice system. They are there with the survivor. And just to say, of course, as I've said, tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence has to be a shared responsibility. It has to have sustained commitment and investment from all partners, including policing, the courts and the justice system.

There were profound concerns around mass redundancies and closures of rape crisis centres, which were facing a funding cliff edge in March 2026. There I should make it clear—. These, I should make clear—sorry—are funded by the UK Government through the Ministry of Justice. Thanks to the work of campaigners, they were able to secure funding for a further two years, but this highlights the importance of the Welsh Government plugging gaps left by the UK Government through the sexual assault referral centres, or SARCs, funded through the NHS. Sadly, the depressing trend shows demand on sexual assault support services rising, and waiting lists for counselling can be lengthy. Third sector organisations, such as RASASC, or Stepping Stones for child victims, provide essential support and it's vital and sometimes life-saving that support is provided to victims immediately. So, how is the Welsh Government supporting the work of charities in north Wales supporting victims of rape and sexual assault and ensuring that victims are fully aware of and referred to the help that's available to them?

Thank you for that very important and relevant follow-up question, Gareth. In this financial year, we've allocated over £10 million in revenue and £3 million in capital to support violence against women and sexual violence services. We must go back to statutory duties here. It is the statutory duty of the local authorities in north Wales and the health board, Betsi Cadwaladr. They’ve got a legal duty. And this is not often recognised—30, 40 years ago we had none of these legal duties, so groups just had to campaign. We have legal duties on these bodies to assess and meet the needs of their population, and that does include the provision of sexual assault services. Now we want to strengthen and reinforce this responsibility, so we're consulting on statutory guidance, but, again, as I say, in north Wales, we do support revenue funding, as I said, to those organisations you've mentioned, RASASC and Stepping Stones.

Diolch yn fawr, Adam. The Crime and Policing Bill supports crucial commitments that would benefit Welsh citizens, including respect orders, a stand-alone offence of assaulting a retail worker, and strengthens powers to tackle anti-social behaviour, crime and terrorism. So, it was disappointing that the Senedd voted against this Bill last week, which, of course, the Welsh Government supported.

Yes, but the question is: what is going to happen now, Cabinet Secretary? Because the Bill is at Report Stage in the House of Lords. If there are going to be changes, they have to happen now, in the next few days. So, can you tell us what discussions you've had with the UK Government? What suggestions have you made as a Government following the LCM vote as to changes that you are proposing? Will you bring a statement to the Senedd next week? Because, obviously, we're facing dissolution. And based on the discussions that you've already had with the UK Government, do you expect them to respect the Sewel convention? There are discussions about putting that Sewel convention on a firmer basis. Those discussions are ongoing, but they're not currently concluded. Is it your expectation that the UK Government, in this case, will respect the Sewel convention, and what options are you putting on the table in order to reflect the vote in the Senedd?

Well, of course, that vote was incredibly disappointing—incredibly disappointing—because it is those crucial commitments that will benefit Welsh citizens. I've mentioned already that I spoke with them last week. I was very disappointed, because I offered briefings, I met with colleagues. And this is something where, of course, it's for the Senedd Commission to contact the UK Parliament to inform them of the outcome of the vote. Officials have been in touch with UK Government counterparts to inform them of the result, and points that were raised during the debate, of course, have been shared with them and they'll be discussed. The other thing is that, as I said last week, I'm really grateful to the local government and constitution committees, because we went back and forth, we had supplementary LCMs, I responded to correspondence, and I really wanted to try and get this LCM discussed so that we could have those powers in Wales. Obviously, I listened to concerns and responded to them.

So, this is a very difficult place, but I have to say the worry is that this Bill was seeking to protect children and vulnerable adults, created new offences of child criminal exploitation, cuckooing and coerced internal concealment, new offences about taking intimate images without consent, making grooming behaviour a statutory aggravating factor—why was this not recognised across this Chamber? Very disappointing. Yes, it's something where we did debate, and I heard your concerns, but this Bill was something at the end of our sixth administration, sixth Senedd, that could have given more enhanced powers and reforms to policing accountability.

I appreciate, Minister, you're disappointed by the outcome of the vote, but Adam Price asked you about the consequences of that vote, and you went on to relitigate the arguments that we had had previously. The Senedd heard those arguments and decided not to provide consent to the Crime and Policing Bill. It does seem like the UK Government isn't going to change course in any way as a result of the refusal of the legislative consent motion here in the Senedd. It doesn't seem that the Welsh Government is making the case to put the Senedd's voice forward in order to do that either. It seems really clear that when this has happened in the past, there have been Conservative Governments in Westminster and Ministers in this Chamber have gone so far as to call the overlooking of an LCM by a UK Government an assault on devolution, but that language is completely absent in your response today and the response of the wider Welsh Government. So, why is it that you are so determined to pull your punches when it comes to standing up for Wales against a UK Labour Government?

Why is it that you did not discuss with me the issues? I'm really disappointed. I had a meeting with Altaf Hussain. No mention was made to me. No mention was made to me about questions. [Interruption.] No mention was made to me about questions. I'm really interested, because I do think we need to look at this. This is the end of this administration. I have to say, as far as the Lord's debate, the UK Government Conservatives, and the issues that Altaf raised, they just noted issues that were of concern. They did not make the points that were made last week, which came to me out of the blue. I had no previous discussion on these issues, because I would have wanted us to be able to agree to get this LCM through. Yes, we're in a very difficult situation, and it is now for the Senedd Commission, as I said, to contact the UK Parliament to inform them of the outcome of the vote. And, as I said, we are talking to the UK Government, but it's very difficult to know what we can do in the last few days.

Thank you, Lesley Griffiths. I meet regularly with the UK Government justice Ministers and consistently advocate for the opening of the residential women’s centre in Swansea. Positively, the recently published national women’s justice board report recommended to the Deputy Prime Minister and Lord Chancellor that the centre is a test site for accommodation at point of remand.

I'm pleased to hear you're continuing to have those discussions, but it is incredibly disappointing that we still do not have a women's centre in Swansea. I heard you say in an answer last week, in your Trefnydd role, that the building and planning permission has been confirmed. I know this has cross-party support right across Swansea, and it is simply not good enough that we still don't have this provision in Wales. By now, I was hoping we would either have, or we would be planning, similar provision in north Wales. I know how committed you are to these services, and there is clearly something holding back progress. So, perhaps you could have a further discussion with the UK Government, in the last few days of this administration, because it is up to the UK Government to be responsible for ensuring provision extends to the whole of Wales.

Thank you for that question. Over the last few days, I have been having discussions with the UK Government. I met with Lord Timpson two weeks ago and stressed the urgency about getting progress on the residential women's centre. Yesterday, I met with Ian Barrow, the chief executive of His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service in Wales, and also, last week, I met with Lady Edwina Grosvenor and Claire Hubberstey of the Hope Street women's centre in Southampton, along with Bernie Bowen-Thomson, the chief executive of Safer Wales. 

Actually, the Hope Street model is mentioned in the women's justice board recommendations, and this is something that is in the public domain, so I hope colleagues who are interested in this will have seen it. I was pleased to see that the residential women's centre in Swansea could be a test centre for women on remand. We've just got to make that progress now, and the strength of feeling in this Senedd, I know, is helpful to put that pressure on in the last few days. 

Of course, the UK Government did announce a boost of funding to divert women from a life of crime: a £31.6 million funding boost was used to offer drug, employment and housing support. We know that there are no prisons in Wales for women and there's a lack of specialised facilities, and this hinders rehabilitation. The Welsh Government and the former UK Conservative Government had been working to introduce a centre to house women sentenced to custody, with additional funding of £2.5 million being provided in 2020—so, almost six years ago. So, can you just answer me, for two years, now, you've had your Labour Government in No.10, can you tell me why you haven't progressed this initiative much sooner? It's a long time, two years, for those women whose lives could be turned around.

Yes. I've mentioned the women's justice blueprint, and it was a blueprint where we worked with the former Conservative Government to develop both a women's blueprint and a youth justice blueprint, with five-year implementation plans. The women's justice blueprint has had some really important outcomes: diversion schemes for vulnerable women across all four police forces as a result of that investment. I've mentioned the domestic violence independent advisers. They are in the prisons outside of Wales—we don't have a women's prison and I hope that we will never have a women's prison in Wales—in HMP Eastwood Park and HMP Styal, so that women can get support. Also, in Wales, of course, we ensure that women serving custodial sentences can remain on Buvidal to treat opioid dependence. We've got an engagement programme with magistrates, sentencers and other key court professionals. And we have an all-Wales women in justice board.

I urge you to read this, Janet Finch-Saunders, because it will show you clearly the recommendations to the UK Government for action now, which I know the Deputy Prime Minister and Lord Chancellor have seen. It's an independent report, but published by the Ministry of Justice. I'm glad that the Welsh Government has funded the really pioneering Visiting Mum initiative and the family ties scheme at both HMP Eastwood Park and HMP Styal, which, of course, serves women from north Wales.

This is something where I'm frustrated that we haven't made more progress. The key thing—and I hope that everyone across this Chamber will back me on this—is that we should get some clarity about the opening of our residential women's centre in south Wales, and then we can go and make sure that that can be replicated in north Wales, as well.

Diolch yn fawr, Samuel Kurtz. The Welsh Government is here to help struggling households, and today, I issued a statement setting out how we're acting now to increase support for people in financial crisis, including temporarily uplifting the financial assistance for our off-grid fuel while prices are inflated, using our own budgets this year.

Well, Cabinet Secretary, the ongoing conflict in the middle east has once again exposed how vulnerable heating oil prices are to external shocks, but I was pleased to see that even the RenewableUK chief executive has urged Ed Miliband to increase North sea oil and gas production.

According to figures from Citizens Advice, 75 per cent of households in Ceredigion and 41 per cent in Pembrokeshire are off grid, with the vast majority relying on heating oil to heat their homes. I've been contacted by constituents regarding the actions of BoilerJuice, which has confirmed orders, taken payment, and then cancelled deliveries, citing market movements, leaving customers without fuel they believed they had secured and potentially in breach of contract. For vulnerable and rural households, this is not only distressing, but risks pushing them further into fuel poverty. So, what work are you doing to lobby the UK Government to increase, firstly, North sea production and support off-grid homes from either price gouging or poor business practices? 

Well, thank you for the welcome of the action—I presume you're welcoming the action that's been taken, the £3.8 million that's coming to help households in terms of access to their heating oil. Indeed, I met with the UK Minister for Energy Consumers today to express thanks for the funding that they're providing next year, to explain the support that is available here in Wales, and also to urge him to work with the CMA, the Competition and Markets Authority, about exactly the issues that you're raising in terms of, for example, the need for a regulator. There isn't a regulator for off-grid fuel, and I hope that you would agree with me that that's something that we should be calling for. I certainly was today.

It is important that we look at how we can reach out to those households that need support now. We can do that via our discretionary assistance fund. Just to say that I've allocated an extra £1 million to the discretionary assistance fund this year, it now totals £39.5 million, and that we will be increasing the number of payments in terms of access to the discretionary assistance fund, but also the Fuel Bank Foundation, to which we're allocating funding for their support. So, it's something where I'm sure that we can make a difference to meet the needs of those households. I, of course, totally refute your point about North sea oil. This is where we need to work on what we've got, and, indeed, our renewables are crucial.

I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer, but also the UK Government for its swift action in this space and the £3.8 million that will now be available to support those in my area who are very dependent on oil, not just to heat their homes, but to fuel them absolutely in terms of cooking and all the other things. We know that the price cap for those who are on grid is already going to come into force, so those people have already been protected, but these people aren't protected.

I've had lots of people contacting me who are really nervous, and I've heard about people whose deliveries have been stopped, but were paid for, and people who are being held to ransom virtually by a threefold price increase. So, there are many aspects to this, but the greatest help that we can give is the help that we are giving. What I would like to know, because we are offering significant help with an uplift to £750 per person now, which is available to them, is: what are we going to do to inform those people of the help that is there for the most vulnerable who should be receiving it and who should be claiming it?

Thank you very much, Joyce Watson, and thank you for that question. You raised it as a question earlier on this week, once the £3.8 million was announced. What is important is that I have issued this written statement today, and can I urge everyone to share that written statement as widely as possible, and encourage everyone who's struggling to contact Advice Link Cymru's 'Claim what's yours' helpline, checking what financial support they're entitled to? Of course, this is about not just access to the discretionary assistance fund, the Fuel Bank Foundation. On the discretionary assistance fund, we actually have 500 partners who are the partners who can refer people for application to the discretionary assistance fund, and they cover the third sector, local authorities, they include MPs and Senedd Members, organisations, welfare rights associations, and the voluntary organisations. So, this is now reaching everyone who's engaged with people who may be vulnerable, but I do ask colleagues across the Chamber to promote this written statement.

Just to again make the point that, for those who use off-grid fuel, we're temporarily uplifting the amount to £750 per award and increasing the frequency these pavements can be provided from once to twice in a rolling 12-month period, a minimum of three months apart. Also, in terms of the Fuel Bank Foundation's national heat fund scheme, that's providing fuel vouchers for deliveries of oil or gas for those not connected to the main gas network. So, that should continue to support households in Wales, particularly in the rural areas that are affected.

Diolch yn fawr, Cefin. We support families across Wales, including Mid and West Wales, targeting help to those in need. This includes investing in Flying Start, the single advice fund, the childcare offer, and the discretionary assistance fund. We’ve invested over £7 billion to ease financial pressures and boost household incomes, making a positive difference in people’s pockets.

Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to discuss fuel poverty in particular, and follow on from the numerous points already raised by colleagues. In Caerfyrddin, around 57 per cent of households are not connected to the gas grid, including—I will declare an interest—my home in the Tywi valley, compared to the 15.7 per cent average across Great Britain. This figure rises to 72 per cent in Ceredigion Preseli. Inevitably, therefore, there will be far more families in west Wales dependent on heating oil, the price of which has, in many cases, more than doubled in the past week, as you know, because of Trump's reckless, aimless and illegal war in Iran. And let's not forget how quickly the Conservatives and Reform started dancing to the Trump war drum, going as far as calling for the UK to join in offensive attacks. I've got to be honest; this energy crisis is collectively theirs to own. We've already heard about the support made available by the UK Government for the most vulnerable households for heating oil, and it's welcome—

You need to ask the question now, please.

I'm coming to the question.

Now, please.

In terms of struggling families, does the Welsh Government therefore accept that those classed as vulnerable is insufficient to address fuel insecurity in rural areas, or are you content to allow families in these communities to be pushed further into poverty?

I absolutely agree with you, Cefin, about the real risks in the communities that you represent. Just looking at the census for 2021, Ceredigion is the highest of those in terms of reliance on heating oil, at 35.30 per cent, Powys is at 27.70 per cent, Carmarthenshire 23.70 per cent, Pembrokeshire 22. West Wales is, as Joyce Watson has said, the most vulnerable in terms of those circumstances.

I can assure you that this extra money in this year and in next year, the £3.8 million, will be going to those households, who can access the support through the discretionary assistance fund and Fuel Bank Foundation. I can give you, and I will following this meeting, information about all of those who are authorised to ensure that households can contact them to get access to the discretionary assistance fund.

Finally, question 8, Paul Davies.

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. We've have provided £10.9 million to Third Sector Support Wales in 2025–26 to strengthen support for voluntary organisations across Wales. Of this, £224,000 has gone to Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services to help local groups with fundraising, governance, safeguarding and volunteering.

Cabinet Secretary, at the end of last year, I had the opportunity to visit the Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services, which, as you know, plays a crucial role in strengthening local communities in Pembrokeshire by providing advice, guidance and practical support to organisations and individuals who give their time to help others. Their work often happens behind the scenes, but its impact is felt every day in the lives of people across the county.

They are currently running a campaign to promote Village Halls Week, which, as luck would have it, is taking place this week and shines a spotlight on the contribution that village halls make to rural communities. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in thanking the Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services for the outstanding partnership work that it does across Pembrokeshire, and will you also join me in celebrating Village Halls Week by recognising the vital role that they play in our local communities? 

Thank you very much. That is an extremely positive last question. I hope it is, Deputy Llywydd, my last question this afternoon. I absolutely join you in celebrating Village Halls Week and all the village halls across Wales. Can I just make one point? I mentioned the funding that we give to our county voluntary councils; there is no such funding happening anywhere else in the UK. In Wales, through thick and thin, through your austerity, for 14 years, we have continued to fund our county voluntary councils, and we've funded them because they do such good work. And can I just say, Paul, that I know you'd welcome—? Can I just say that Eglwyswrw Village Association, which is in your patch, was funded—? This is a very positive last message. It was funded £19,500 in September 2023 to refresh the old school building with new windows and doors to improve the energy efficiency. One of the project's key partners is Eglwyswrw Heritage Society. They were struggling to keep that village hall warm. I won't go on to all of the other village halls in your constituency, but that is the result of funding from the community facilities programme. I do encourage colleagues across the Chamber to continue to access the community facilities fund, because it makes such a difference to those village halls. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Although it might have been your last OMQ, I'm sure it's not going to be your last contribution in this Senedd.

Item 3 is questions to the Senedd Commission. I call on Samuel Kurtz to ask question 1.

The Commission has undertaken procedural and practical steps to support the seventh Senedd in undertaking its business. Members will be aware of the work that the Business Committee has undertaken regarding changes to the Standing Orders and its legacy report. We hope that the report can inform the deliberations of the next Business Committee. As well, the work to complete this Chamber has been undertaken, and officials are continuing to work behind the scenes to monitor all aspects and further development of the facilities for the next Senedd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd.

Recognising the work of the Business Committee and the work on the Standing Orders, I've learnt a lot over the last five years that I've been here, and I think there's a lot that this Senedd can do a little bit better to make sure that it represents Wales a little bit more. So, maybe I could share some of the thoughts that I have in how this place can do that little bit better.

I take the visit we had to the Dáil, at Leinster House, where the time limit actually clocks down, and the Ministers are timed, as well, in their ministerial replies, which I think would be quite welcome by some Members in this place. I think, for me as well, I would like to see the end of hybrid Chamber contributions, but at a minimum, I would want to see the end of Members coming in for First Minister's questions, getting their clip for social media, then being able to nip home and vote online. I think that does a disservice to the people who elect us to this place.

And finally, the working week. We meet on Tuesdays and Wednesdays at 13:30. I think we need to extend that working week, going forward. I think we need to be meeting on a Thursday as we go forward. Other Parliaments in the United Kingdom sit for longer during those Plenary weeks. I think it's quite right that we, as a Welsh Parliament, sit longer representing the people of Wales. Just a few of my thoughts, Llywydd, for the seventh Senedd.

I look forward to seeing those thoughts clipped for social media. As you say, it's becoming a habit of many Members in this Senedd. Thank you for your thoughts. Some of those thoughts have been part of our considerations as a Business Committee. Some of them, you'll be pleased to know, have made it into the legacy report of the Business Committee. The Business Committee is, in that legacy report, recommending—because we can only recommend—to the next Senedd that it meets on a Thursday as well, in a three-week cycle of meetings that includes Thursday for committee and for constituency work as well. I hope, possibly, that we'll both be returning to that Senedd. Before then, I'll see you on the streets and in the villages and towns of Ceredigion Penfro, where we'll be campaigning to make sure that we are elected into the seventh Senedd. As you know, Samuel Kurtz, they're your thoughts for now and they have been discussions we've had in the Business Committee, but they will be, finally, matters for the seventh Senedd. I might see you there, I might not.

Thank you, Julie, for that question, and for your continued pressure on us to do something about this, and from Jenny Rathbone, too. I welcome it, because the Commission is committed to ensuring the Senedd is welcoming and inclusive, and that of course includes breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is welcome anywhere on this estate and it's promoted on our website, but we have to recognise that the signage isn't clear, and that was brought up at our Commission meeting this week. So, there is a commitment that that signage will be changed.

There was also recognition that there is a breastfeeding room available—if you can find it, that is—and it is dedicated. The trouble is it's actually shared, and the only facility as far as I can see in it is a breastfeeding chair, which is wholly inadequate. What I would like to see as the Commissioner who's been responsible for this now for 10 years is a real commitment from the Commission to upgrade those facilities, to make them clearer, to put in, as my colleague who's talking over there, Janet Finch-Saunders, suggested, some washing facilities and toilet facilities as well for parents with their children that they're trying to breastfeed.

So whilst I can't change things now, I do strongly recommend that this issue is taken seriously. It's a recommendation in the family-friendly Parliament report that I chaired. We can't call ourselves truly inclusive if what we provide to mothers who are breastfeeding is wholly inadequate, and in my view it is wholly inadequate.

I thank Joyce Watson very much for that response. I think she's made some very important points. I recently walked around the Senedd building looking out for anything that would make us think, ‘Oh, this is a breastfeeding-friendly building’. I know Joyce has already mentioned that there is a room, a quiet room with a chair in, but there is no way of anyone knowing that that chair is there, as far as I can see. There is no signage to say that if you need somewhere quiet for breastfeeding—although you are welcome to do it anywhere on the Senedd estate—there is a private place that you can go. I wondered if she had thought of signage to enable women to find the particular place. There is a sign in the Senedd cafe to say that breastfeeding is welcome, but personally I think that sign, although it is a universal sign, could be clearer. I also wonder if there is such a sign in the Members’ canteen, for example. I'm not sure there is a sign there either. I think it's absolutely right that there should be a real effort made now to ensure that everybody knows that this is a breastfeeding establishment, and that we really welcome breastfeeding, because—

Thank you, Julie.

—it's so important for our children.

I couldn't agree more, especially since there is now going to be a dedicated crèche facility onsite. It would be a good thing if we married both things up together.

I'm very glad to hear that there is now a sign in the cafe that says that breastfeeding is welcome here. Clearly, it needs to be a bit larger, because I haven't yet spotted it. I think there are two things here. It's nearly 40 years since I had my first child. I was the shop steward in the television company where I worked and I was told that I wasn't to come back to negotiate with my daughter whilst I was discreetly breastfeeding under a shawl, which is completely ridiculous. This is a normal activity that all women who are having babies need to be doing. So, I do think there's a change of culture as well as a venue that should be available to those who wish to breastfeed privately. But it should be perfectly possible for people to be able to breastfeed either in the cafe or near the Lego, which is, if you've got an older child, obviously where you need to be. There are places where people should feel that it's a perfectly normal activity. And breasts are for feeding, not for selling newspapers.

Thank you for that, but that is the case on this estate. It is perfectly acceptable for people to breastfeed anywhere in the building. What is letting it down, in my view, is the signage, which isn't prominent, and also the facilities that are provided at the moment need improving—there is no getting away from that. And as I said, whilst I can't change those things now in this role, because I'm stepping down and away from it, I am supported by other colleagues who will be staying. And also, in terms of the 'Report of the Family-Friendly and Inclusive Parliament Review'—that highlights this as well.

And question 3, Hannah Blythyn.

Welsh produce is a requirement written into our catering services contract with ESS Compass, and we monitor performance on a regular basis. At present, 76 per cent of all food and drink on the Senedd estate is of Welsh provenance. We continue to work with a contractor to sustain and, where possible, improve that level while promoting Welsh food and drink across the estate. And we're confident that we will see progress and that a percentage of 80 per cent is achievable.

Thank you for that response.

We have a growing and fantastic food and drink offer here in Wales today, from some wonderful Welsh wines to the development of distilleries and microbreweries and more. And I know you have the award-winning Gwinllan Llaethliw Vineyard in your own constituency, Llywydd. I'd like to see us try and find opportunities to do more to support and showcase this sector on the Senedd estate. For example, why not have guest or featured products in the shop, rotating through the new Senedd constituencies during the course of the seventh Senedd?

We could also play our part in promoting Welsh wine and other products in what is served at events, and also when we have visiting guests from either here at home, or from further afield. We really should be shining a spotlight on Welsh products in our Welsh Parliament, and I think there's a huge opportunity here. So, I'd be grateful, Llywydd, if you could outline how and when will the Commission make this happen. Diolch.

It seems to be a session for Members to suggest ideas for the next Senedd, and we're getting some great ideas. And, yes, as I said, we're working with the catering contractor to up the game again from 76 per cent, as I mentioned, in terms of food and drink products sourced from Wales, to beyond 80 per cent. I particularly like the idea that you've just mentioned of having guest products in a cyclical way, perhaps matched to new constituencies, and that that could be a way of highlighting new products and award-winning products, such as the Llaethliw vineyard in my constituency.

I'm perfectly happy to offer up Ceredigion Penfro as the first constituency to possibly be on that guest producers list, if I'm here, of course, to represent that constituency. But, yes, I agree that we need to be promoting food and drink from Wales more within our Senedd and more within Wales more generally and beyond.

Thank you to the Llywydd and Joyce Watson.

No topical questions were accepted today.

So, we will move on to the 90-second statements, which is item 5. There is only one statement today, and I call on Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Last Friday night, I attended an evening to celebrate 75 years of Welsh education in the Rhondda, at the Rhondda Heritage Park Hotel. It was a wonderful opportunity to celebrate all that has been achieved, including the great many pupils who have benefited over the decades.

As we were reminded by Cennard Davies, the battle to establish Welsh language education was long and bitter, with the writer Kitchener Davies, and his wife, Mair, playing a key role in getting the council to agree to open Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Ynyswen in 1950. It was only in 1988 that we got the secondary school. Thirty-eight children started on 27 June 1950; today, almost 2,000 children receive their education through the medium of Welsh. It was emotional to hear Megan Tudur, one of the original 38, and the daughter of Mair and Kitchener Davies, share her memories as part of the celebration, alongside Carys Whelan.

Despite the success of Bodringallt, Ynyswen, Bronllwyn, Llyn y Forwyn, and Llwyncelyn schools, and Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhondda, the battle goes on. Not all pupils, to this day, have the opportunity to pursue Welsh education. I would like to offer a heartfelt thanks to everyone who has fought for Welsh education over the decades, and to the teachers, pupils and parents, especially those who are non-Welsh speakers, who have ensured that their children have the opportunity to learn the language.

I will conclude with the words of Tudur Dylan Jones, from his poem to celebrate the anniversary,

This aged, slender valley’s heart / now beats as healthy as the start, / each one of us, both young and old / require youth, it has been told, / in secret echoes, you will find / both Rhondda Fawr and Fach entwined.

Thank you, Heledd.

Item 6 today is a debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee report, 'Twenty fifth report to the sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Hannah Blythyn.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion.

The committee considered the report from the commissioner for standards in relation to a complaint made against Janet Finch-Saunders MS for the misuse of Senedd resources. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment that we consider the Member to have breached the code of conduct and should be censured. The facts relating to the complaint and the committee's reason for its recommendation are set out in full in the committee's report.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all Members of the importance of making sure we are familiar with the rules governing when and where Senedd resources can be used. It is incumbent on all of us, as elected representatives, to understand the distinction between party political activity and the discharge of our duties as Members. The motion tabled invites the Senedd to endorse the committee's recommendation. Diolch.

I have no other speakers. Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the two motions under items 7 and 8 will be grouped for debate, but with votes taken separately. I see that there are no objections. Therefore, I call on the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee to move the motions—Hannah Blythyn.

Diolch, Diprwy Lywydd. In moving these motions today, I am asking the Senedd to adopt the revised code of conduct and the revised guidance on the registration and declaration of interests, which were laid in the Table Office on 11 March 2026.

A central focus of the Standards of Conduct Committee throughout the sixth Senedd has been the development of a clearer, stronger and more transparent standards framework. The code of conduct and the documents that support it form a key part of this work. We were keen to ensure that the standards framework reflects not only best practice, but also the expectations rightly placed upon us as elected Members. Our work on dignity and respect, as well as the implications of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Bill, have shaped these provisions significantly.

In updating the code, we have drawn on the committee's experience, on the standards commissioner's reports over this Senedd and on engagement with stakeholders, members of the public and Members themselves. Our aim throughout has been to remove ambiguity, strengthen accountability and directly address issues that have arisen during this term. The revised code continues to set out the overarching principles of conduct, still grounded in the Nolan principles, which guide the interpretation of the rules, and apply where conduct falls short, even if not explicitly captured by a specific rule. These non-exhaustive rules have been amended, clarified and, in some cases, expanded, with new rules introduced where necessary.

One of the most significant changes is the division of the former rule 2 into two distinct duties. Members will now have an explicit obligation not to make deliberately misleading statements, and a corresponding duty to correct factual inaccuracies at the earliest opportunity. This makes expectations around honesty more transparent and provides a clearer basis for assessing conduct where intent may be in question. We have also refined the rules on confidentiality. The updated code makes clear that confidentiality applies only while a complaint is under investigation. Once a matter has been concluded or dismissed, Members will be free to respond publicly to allegations in a proportionate and appropriate manner.

The code also reflects the realities of modern communication. Members will now be personally accountable for all content issued in their name, whether posted by themselves or by a member of staff acting on their behalf. This closes the gap identified in recent cases, and reinforces the principle that accountability cannot be delegated.

A further addition recognises the importance of Members' responsibilities as employers. A new rule requires Members to act as responsible employers, supported by guidance, and maintain staff codes of conduct, providing comprehensive staff handbooks and completing dignity and respect training. Failure to engage in this training may be taken into account in future standards cases.

We've also clarified the process for complaints relating to declarations of interest. While conduct in Plenary and committees remains a matter for the Llywydd or Chairs, complaints about declarations of interest will now be referred directly to the commissioner. 

The rule on interference with complaints has been strengthened. Members must not discourage, influence or induce any person from making a complaint, nor prevent anyone from giving evidence. The rule now also makes clear that non-disclosure agreements must not be used to prevent staff, or former staff, from raising concerns about a Member's conduct.

Finally, the code now requires Members to declare relevant or registerable interests, not only during Senedd proceedings, but also when making representations outside formal business, for example in communication with Ministers, public officials or others involved in public policy. This brings us closer to practice in other UK legislatures, and enhances transparency in Members' external engagements.

Alongside the revision of the code of conduct, the Standards of Conduct Committee has updated the guidance on the registration of declarations of interest, reflecting reports we have produced this Senedd and the Standing Orders changes agreed last week. The requirements have been revised to simplify the rules and make the requirements around Members' interests clearer and more transparent. The categories have been redesigned to ensure that the register is easier to navigate, and a voluntary category has been added to allow Members to record interests not required by the register, but relevant to their work as Members of the Senedd. 

This work has also simplified the declaration requirements under Standing Orders. Members are no longer prohibited from voting if they've declared a registerable interest under Standing Orders 2.6 and 2.7. This does not change the requirement to declare an interest, but removes a rule that has never been triggered and is inconsistent with practice in other Parliaments.

The revised guidance also clarifies the requirement on Members to declare relevant interests, and the level of detail required in such declarations, including when complying with the new Standing Order requirement to declare an interest when tabling Senedd business. Additional guidance has also been included for Members regarding the fact that this issue is considered when deciding if a declaration is required. 

I would like to thank the members of the committee for their work, and committee officials throughout this Senedd, and all those who contributed evidence during this process. If agreed, the new code and guidance will come into effect from the first day of the seventh Senedd. Diolch.

Again, I have no other speakers. So, the proposal is to agree the motion under item 7. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

The next proposal is to agree the motion under item 8. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 9 is next. The Government Minister who is responding is not present in the Chamber at the moment. So, we'll suspend for five minutes to allow the Minister to attend. Thank you. We'll suspend for five minutes.

Item 9 on our agenda this afternoon is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee Report, 'Mission Cymru: Principles for international relations'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Delyth Jewell.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's my pleasure to discuss our final report as a committee on international affairs, which is 'Mission Cymru'. I'd like to thank the committee team for their support, particularly Sara Moran for preparing the report, and also our clerking team, Richard and Haidee. Thank you very much to them, and to everyone who provided evidence.

Our international relations as a nation go back to a pre-devolution period, and before the formation of the kingdom that we are part of. We have an important role to play on the international stage, and we must take advantage of the opportunities that we have.

As I have said previously in this Chamber, international relations may not be a devolved matter, but it matters. I invite Members to welcome the Irish Government's Consul General, Denise McQuade, who is in the public gallery.

You're very welcome.

We extend our gratitude to you for your contribution to this Senedd's work, and we wish you all the very best for the future as you move on from your role later in this year. On a personal level, I would like to thank you for your dedication, your steadfastness and your friendship. You will be missed.

The Welsh Government's joint working with the Irish Government is a positive example of meaningful co-operation, which demonstrates the value of our international partnerships. We were delighted to mark St Patrick's Day yesterday by publishing our second report on the relationship. My committee has always striven to make a positive and constructive contribution to Wales's international story, one that will stand the test of time. This report is based on evidence to this inquiry and on our own experience.

Looking to the future, we set out 12 principles for future Governments here in Wales. I am grateful that the First Minister, in responding to our report, has accepted two and accepted the rest in principle. That is certainly to be welcomed.

We believe that adopting 'Mission Cymru' would guarantee that Wales delivers on its international ambition and realises its potential. Its principles cover all aspects of the Welsh Government's approach: Cabinet responsibility, strategies, reporting, delivery and resourcing. We agree with those who argue that Wales should take more confidence on the world stage. This cannot be taken for granted nor left to chance. 

So, to our findings. The Welsh Government's international strategy and five action plans were published in 2020, and its international delivery plan published in 2025. Together they set out almost 300 commitments and aims. 'Mission Cymru' calls for a more focused approach. The Welsh Government does not report on its international activity in one place. Its reporting does not reference delivery of specific commitments and aims, and that has presented challenges in ascertaining what has and has not been achieved. Witnesses to our inquiry experienced sometimes the same challenges, illustrated by gaps in reporting and sometimes in low awareness.

For over 18 months, our committee requested an update on delivery, which was provided by the First Minister in November 2025. The benefits of having had contemporaneous updates throughout the sixth Senedd would have been obvious, of course, and numerous. We agree with witnesses on the importance of explaining international work to the public, including to foster confidence, support and to prevent misunderstanding from taking hold. It, of course, has been unfortunate that our committee's scrutiny has, at times, been hampered by efforts to obtain information. It is a shame that we have been denied the opportunity to support and to celebrate international milestones secured by the Welsh Government and partners. In 'Mission Cymru', we say that future Governments must not shy away from communicating efforts to showcase Wales on the world stage. The Senedd should be seen as an important ally.

Dirprwy Lywydd, you will recall that the First Minister has always been responsible for the Welsh Government's international relations, with the exception, of course, of a dedicated Cabinet post that was held by the current First Minister from 2018 to 2020. Now, we've heard about strengths and weaknesses of both models from stakeholders, and the First Minister sets out her own view in the response. Now, my committee has scrutinised a number of First Ministers, and we have, of course, criticised them for not appearing in person to give evidence outside of one annual scrutiny session, particularly in relation to budgets. Now, that no First Minister has seized the important opportunity to advocate in person for the Government's international relations in that way has been another barrier, I'm afraid, to our understanding of the Welsh Government's international delivery. In 'Mission Cymru', we reiterate our position that, as a matter of principle, if a First Minister chooses to take on those policy responsibilities, they should make themselves available to be held accountable for them in person.

But, Dirprwy Lywydd, the First Minister's covering letter, which accompanies the response, makes important observations. I would like to address some of them. It provides useful detail, including the First Minister's view that international delivery has gone from strength to strength. It does also set out where the First Minister believes that the work of the Welsh Government has not been represented clearly by my committee. I fear the letter might further illustrate some of these issues we've faced. For example, the letter explains that, on budgets, successive First Ministers have provided written and oral evidence on 14 different occasions. Now, that does highlight two of our main areas of frustration. Firstly, that written information was frequently incomplete, not always clear, and, secondly, that annual in-person appearances took place outside of budget scrutiny cycles. Now, as we say in 'Mission Cymru', while often useful, of course, scrutiny via correspondence is no replacement for in-person exchanges.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I am sure that Members will agree that it should be a matter for the Senedd, not the Welsh Government, to determine what constitutes appropriate and effective scrutiny and how such scrutiny should be conducted. Now, that is another key conclusion. We set out that principle clearly that, in the future, whoever the responsible Minister is who is responsible for this area should be subject to scrutiny for Wales's international relations in the same way as other portfolio Ministers.

But finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, on resourcing, the Welsh Government has a relatively small budget underpinning international activity. Stakeholders spoke about delivery on limited resources, which we believe could be addressed through pooling resources. This makes the financial information provided to the Senedd all the more important. Members will be aware that we've raised several issues. Indeed, my last comments in this Chamber on the topic were during January's budget debate, when I advised that a Government response had been received only two hours before I spoke.

We are of the view that, as a committee, we have at times been denied the ability to scrutinise over £58 million of public money allocated to this area with confidence. If adopted, the 'Mission Cymru' principles would transform the budget scrutiny process for a future responsible Senedd committee. But I would like to say, in closing these opening remarks, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we know that good work is happening. We have witnessed the significant amount of goodwill, passion and expertise that advances Wales’s international relations every day. As we enter a time of yet more turbulence in the relations that knit nations together, the need for clear principles for our own international relations activity has never been greater. Geography may have placed us at the corner of a continent, but Wales’s voice must never be marginal. I look forward to hearing Members' comments during this debate. Diolch.

I'm very pleased to take part in this debate today. I well remember when devolution first came about in Wales some 27 years ago, Dirprwy Lywydd, when some feared that devolution in Wales would be inward looking and parochial, and I think that the experience has been anything but. It's actually opened up, or helped to open up, Wales to the world and the world to Wales. And that is so positive in so many ways. I was very pleased to hear the committee Chair mention the Republic of Ireland, because my mother was born in County Kerry in Ireland, and I think that that has been a long-standing, strong relationship, between Wales and Éire, and I hope that that will continue, and I'm sure it will, into the seventh Senedd, and strengthen in institutional terms, in governmental terms, in parliamentary terms, and community to community.

That sort of approach to international relations, I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, is very much there in Welsh Government's programme for Africa, which personally I'm very proud of. Quite early on in devolution, quite a courageous decision was taken, given that international development is a UK Government responsibility rather than devolved—a courageous decision, I think, was taken to establish a budget and recognise that Wales, the Senedd, Welsh Government, could add value in terms of international relations, and that, as part of the relatively prosperous, stable, peaceful world, we are so lucky, and it gives us a moral responsibility to help other nations that are less fortunate, for example in sub-Saharan Africa.

The aspect of international relations that I'm most familiar with is in Mbale in Uganda. I've been fortunate to go there twice and to see the very good work that takes place through Welsh Government: educational and health exchanges, so that there's reciprocal benefit, health professionals here and in Mbale have that enriching experience of exchange visits, friendships and ongoing communications; there are pupil exchange visits. It's grown so much into community development, agriculture and much else. And also, of course, the work of PONT in Pontypridd, Mick Antoniw's constituency, an amazing charity that has done so much. It's so heartening to visit Mbale and see that excellent work from PONT, again with health aspects, with educational aspects. They manufacture motorcycle ambulances to get up to the mountains and get people to hospitals and health clinics when it's an emergency situation, or indeed more routine. They have an eco village for tourism accommodation with animals, a zoo, there as well for educational visits and to connect local people to nature more. And that income then provides a lot of resource for the employment of local people around those projects. It's just absolutely amazing to see how that community-to-community relationship has grown over an extended period of time and is now stronger than ever.

I really do think, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the programme for Africa is one very worthwhile and good example of strong international relationships and all that can bring to Wales and the countries that we are linked with. I very much hope that, in the seventh Senedd, we see Welsh Government continuing and strengthening that programme for Africa, and in general we see the Senedd taking a leading role, helping communities in Wales to be part of those international links, because it could be, it should be, it is and it can be much stronger than institutional links, Government links, and parliamentary links. It needs to go far and wide throughout the fabric of our country here in Wales, to reach all parts of the community, and if it does that, and it has done to a considerable extent, it will be all the stronger, rather than be limited to any institution or any organisation.

I want to start by thanking everyone on the committee for their work on the 'Mission Cymru' report. As the committee has had its final session last week, it's also right that I place on record my sincere thanks to all the Members who have served on it, and in particular the Chair, Delyth Jewell, for her leadership and commitment to the committee's work.

As it states at the outset, this isn't a typical committee report. It doesn't simply offer a list of recommendations for immediate action; instead, it seeks to establish a framework and set of principles to guide how future Welsh Governments approach international relations.

We on the Conservative benches support the principle that Wales should be outward looking, provided the Welsh Government doesn't overstep its devolved responsibilities. We should be confident on the world stage, building relationships, attracting investment, promoting our culture and attracting visitors. But confidence alone is not enough; you need a plan and you need accountability. What this report makes clear is that confidence must be matched by clarity, competence and, above all, accountability.

The committee is frank in its assessment that, since 2020, we've seen an international strategy, multiple action plans, a delivery plan and hundreds of individual actions—278 in total—followed by yet another plan. This creates a muddled and confused approach, lacking a clear direction and poor delivery of results. I'm afraid it has too often been the story of Welsh Governments: action plan upon action plan, celebrated for its intention, with a total failure in delivery, which is swept under the rug. If stakeholders, the public and, indeed, Members of this Senedd cannot easily understand what the Government's priorities are, then something has gone fatally wrong. [Interruption.] Yes, Alun.

I'm grateful to you for taking a short intervention. You said there were significant failures, which were swept under the rug, I think you said. Perhaps you could list to us those failures that you consider most significant.

Which failures? [Interruption.] I will expand more as I go through my speech.

As I was saying, if Members cannot easily understand what the Government's priorities are, then it is something that's fundamentally wrong. But perhaps the most serious concerns raised in this report relate to scrutiny and transparency. The report makes clear that proper scrutiny has not been taking place. The responsible Minister should be held to account like any other Cabinet Secretary, but international relations fall within the brief of the First Minister, with no Minister assigned to international relations that can be held accountable. The British Council gave evidence to the committee, speaking of the importance of having a dedicated international relations team within Government. The committee expressed its disappointment that all three First Ministers declined to appear before the committee to give oral evidence for draft budget scrutiny, and raises the need for a Minister responsible who can be scrutinised. If international relations are an area that the Welsh Government wishes to pursue, then they must be subject to the same level of scrutiny as health, education or the economy.

The concerns on transparency are, if anything, even more troubling. The committee was unable to obtain a complete list of the Welsh Government's international agreements, despite multiple requests, which is not acceptable. They should be published to allow the Senedd to scrutinise them properly, so that Welsh people have an understanding of how they are beneficial or not beneficial to their interests.

The same applies to spending. The committee has not been able to scrutinise over £58 million-worth of expenditure on international activity during the Senedd term, and that is a significant sum of public money. We also have a network of overseas offices, staff and operational budgets, and the Welsh Conservatives have pledged to close these, but if the Welsh Government wish to make an argument for their value for money, then they need to demonstrate this with a strong evidential base.

At a time when every pound of public money matters, the lack of transparency is concerning. Wales should engage internationally, build partnerships and attract investment, but we must do so in a way that is coherent, has direction and goals, is transparent, accountable and cost-effective. That is why this report matters. The principles set out under 'Mission Cymru' point us back to the fundamentals of a clear and consistent strategy, proper and regular scrutiny, constructive co-operation with partners, including the UK Government, openness about agreements and activity, and a much stronger focus on measuring impact and value for money. These are the basics of good governance.

As we approach a new Senedd term, my hope is that this report will actively shape how international relations are conducted in the future, because this report is not about process for its own sake, but about ensuring that international engagement produces the best results for the people of Wales, and those efforts can be clearly understood and properly scrutinised. Thank you very much.

This report is one of the most important, I think, to be laid before the Senedd this year. I will confine my contribution to a few focused points. The world is changing. Geopolitical forces are fractured. Long-established concepts of the rule of law, international law, and economic and cultural relations are changing. Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the dysfunction of the United States of America's presidency, and the growth of the international far right and fascism at home and abroad is deliberately destabilising democracy. Brexit has not only had a disastrous economic and cultural impact on the United Kingdom; it has also had a disproportionate impact on Wales. We have also lost our sub-national status in the European Union, in a UK that has increasingly centralised governance.

The next Senedd will have a duty to re-establish our Welsh identity, economically, socially and culturally, internationally, as part of the UK, but with our specific Welsh interests and identity. The report is a framework for the next Senedd and the next Welsh Government, and I believe it is commonly accepted now in the majority of the population that we were misled in the Brexit referendum, and that Brexit will be seen to be an historic mistake of gross proportions.

I believe that the UK needs to rejoin the single market and commence discussions on rejoining the EU. I believe that we are moving closer and closer to taking these steps, and Wales must be prepared, therefore, to do our part. In the next enlarged Senedd and Government, we need to ensure that there is a Minister with specific responsibility for international affairs to promote Wales and to co-ordinate our international, economic, social and cultural engagement across Government. This, incidentally, is one of the recommendations of the Wales for Europe manifesto, launched today in Cardiff in conjunction with the Senedd cross-party group on Europe.

We need to raise our profile in Europe. There are so many opportunities emerging that we need a specific European strategy, and we need to seize the opportunities for research and innovation partnerships that will emerge, for the economic and technical opportunities that are emerging for the creation of an essential European defence strategy.

We are, of course, part of a broader UK engagement, but we must ensure that we are at the forefront of that engagement, so we must also have our own international and European strategy. We need to work with organisations like the British Council Wales, who have done excellent work in terms of that soft power of international engagement. I note that the committee has, of course, written twice to the Foreign Office to actually emphasise the importance of proper funding to enable them to carry on with that work.

Finally, as my last opportunity to talk about Ukraine in this Senedd, I want to thank the Senedd and Welsh Government for the important contribution we have collectively made to supporting over 8,000 Ukrainian mainly women and children who fled the Russian invasion, and also to the cross-party group, to Darren, to Rhun, to Eluned, and to all those who have collectively supported the Ukrainian efforts of the cross-party group, the delivery of over 55 vehicles, and millions of pounds of medical and strategic aid to Ukrainian trade unions and front-line defenders. And then, very finally, to the funding for the Gareth Jones memorial to be unveiled in Kyiv, in Gareth Jones Street, on the anniversary of the awful Holodomor, which will take place in November of this year. This will be a trilingual, 2m memorial in Welsh natural slate, which will be a long-lasting tribute to a Welsh hero who, through ethical, investigative journalism, exposed the horror of Stalin's famine. Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales remains the only Parliament in the UK that has declared the Holodomor to be an act of genocide. And I hope, First Minister, that you will be able to represent Wales at the unveiling of the Gareth Jones memorial in Kyiv in November, which will be a permanent tribute to the solidarity between Wales and the Ukraine. Diolch yn fawr.

As a member of the committee, I'm pleased to take part in the debate today, and I would like to start by thanking everyone who gave evidence to the committee, and also the research team and the clerks who have supported us in our scrutiny work. I would also like to thank the First Minister for responding to our report and for being here today. It's good to have the opportunity to discuss international issues on the floor of the Senedd with the Cabinet Member who has responsibility for the brief. I'm very pleased that the Chair, at the start of the debate, referred to the fact that she was also the Minister with responsibility for international relations. I wasn't a Member of this Senedd at that time, but I do remember the excitement that there was that we were going to have an international strategy, and the commitment of the First Minister, as the Minister with responsibility at the time, to ensure that we did have an international strategy.

However, Dirprwy Lywydd, I can't welcome the fact that the response to the majority of our recommendations today is 'accept in principle', nor do I welcome some of the First Minister's comments to the committee in the letter that accompanies the response. Our intention was to be constructive and to conduct our scrutiny in a thorough manner. That has been difficult without an opportunity to meet with, and scrutinise, regularly. As has already been noted, the committee is calling for more clarity, more accountability and more consistency regarding how Wales operates on the international stage. But too often, the Government's response emphasises the flexibility of the action without appreciating also the need of the Senedd to scrutinise effectively.

Dirprwy Lywydd, let me turn specifically to the issue of ministerial scrutiny. The Government accepts in principle that scrutiny arrangements for international relations should have parity with all other portfolios, but it then defends an arrangement where the responsibility lies with the First Minister, which puts a practical limit on the time available to appear before the relevant committee of the Senedd. Scrutiny via First Minister's questions once a week is not the same as purposeful, detailed and topical scrutiny. As we've already heard, the committee's position is clear, and it's disappointing that the response does not move that discussion forward in a practical sense.

Likewise, in terms of reporting and evaluation, the Government accepts that there is a need for clearer reporting arrangements in the future, but again emphasises resource limitations as a reason for not doing more now. The committee fully acknowledges that resources are scarce, but that's exactly why we need a clearer system of prioritisation with targets that are measurable and transparent, so that the Senedd and the public understand where value is created.

In terms of bilateral agreements, the Government claims that information has been published, but the committee has been clear that the information is often incomplete, difficult to find, or lacks a clear context. Accepting in principle the need to improve the availability of information without a firm commitment to a clear framework undermines the purpose of the principles themselves.

I also want to address the tone of the response in some areas. It is worrying to see that democratic scrutiny is sometimes framed as a barrier to delivery rather than as an integral part of effective governance. This committee has operated constructively throughout the term and it's important that this is not portrayed as though we're only seeking to be awkward, as the response does suggest from time to time. There is a specific comment in the letter from the First Minister to the Chair regarding partnership, and I find that very disappointing, given that what we have highlighted in the report stems from what we heard from stakeholders, from those partners themselves. Yes, as the Chair acknowledged, there are great examples of collaboration as team Wales, but what we've heard from partners is that the situation could be better still if the Government acted upon what the stakeholders told us.

Dirprwy Lywydd, 'Mission Wales' offers a real opportunity, an opportunity to lay solid foundations for Wales's international relations for future Governments, whatever their political stripe. But that opportunity cannot be fully exploited if the Government chooses to continue to accept recommendations in theory without committing clearly to their implementation. It is clear from our scrutiny that there is a need for clearer and fairer scrutiny arrangements, more transparency on agreements and funding, and a strategic approach that is truly accountable to the Senedd. Wales deserves an ambitious international policy, but also one that is transparent, democratic and subject to meaningful scrutiny. That is 'Mission Wales'.

Like others in this debate, I'd like to start my contribution by thanking Delyth for her leadership over the last five years. I think we are the only two members of the committee who've served a full sentence. It has been a real pleasure. I also thank all of the committee staff who have served the work of the committee over that time.

In many ways, this isn't simply a report, it's a challenge. It's a challenge to everybody, it's a challenge to all of us, it's certainly a challenge to Government. But it's also a challenge to all of those people who have a narrow-minded view of Wales and our place in the world. There are probably very few places where it's more appropriate to have this debate than Cardiff Bay. Cardiff was the biggest coal-exporting port in the world and created and invented globalisation before we knew what the word meant. But whilst this is a very appropriate place to celebrate and to debate this report, we could also have chosen St David's cathedral in Pembrokeshire, where St David—and we celebrated St Patrick yesterday—would have recognised the same church and would have understood the same places. For them, the sea wasn't simply a barrier, but a bridge. The work that is done today recognises that great Christian heritage that we share with other Celtic countries.

I pay tribute to the work of Darren Millar with the St David's parliamentary prayer breakfast that he undertakes, which is one of the biggest international events in the annual Senedd calendar. But we might also have chosen Merthyr Tydfil, the biggest iron town in the world at many times, and the place from which John Hughes left in order to create the iron and steel industry of Ukraine. We could also have gone home to Tredegar, where Rhys Davies left in order to create the iron and steel industry on the banks of the James river in Virginia, creating, influencing and shaping Wales's place in the world.

Throughout all of that history, for most of our history, for almost all of our history, in fact, Wales's place in the world has been defined by Wales—not by Governments, not by Ministers, but Wales as a nation, as a country, as a people, putting ourselves, inserting ourselves, into history, making sure that, wherever there was an industrial complex being begun anywhere in the world, there was somebody from Wales there with the means to help develop that. That is an important history, because it places us in a particular place. It puts us as a country that is defined by our internationalism. That's why 'Mission Cymru' is so important: a vision of Wales in the world, a positive vision, and not the insular miserableism that I hear all too often from the right wing.

I want to see the Welsh Government putting Wales back on the world stage, more profoundly sometimes. But having said that, I enjoyed and was proud to be in Qatar in the world cup, watching Wales playing football, but also watching the work of the Welsh Government there, and what they were able to achieve. And the same in Switzerland last summer, celebrating Welsh achievements in the world of sport, but across the globe.

But also, one thing I wish the Welsh Government would do better is to celebrate the work of its international network of offices, which do deliver a sense of Wales in different parts of the world. It's something that I believe we need to do more often. It is this sense of positive, optimistic internationalism that I think can help define what we do in the future. There is a world—and Mick Antoniw has talked about it already—that is defined by a narrow-minded sense of intolerance, a small-minded sense of Wales as an insular country unable to look out. I don't believe that impresses anybody, but neither does it reflect our history. [Interruption.] I give way. 

Thank you very much. You talk about narrow-minded from the right and everything else, and elements of that. And you talk about Celtic nations, but you're happy to ignore England. Would you say that that would be classed to be narrow-minded? 

Gareth, sit down, boyo bach. 

Sit down, good boy—

It was a company, our neighbours, Dorman Long, who made the steel for the Sydney Harbour Bridge. So, where does that end? If Wales is going to be on a—. If we're going to talk about—

Gareth, it's an intervention, not a speech. 

—within the context of the whole of the UK, rather than try to cherry-pick certain Celtic nations that you may be able to align more politically with personally yourself. 

The Deputy Presiding Officer will have noticed that intervention took over a minute, and we learned nothing.

In terms of where we're going forward, I hope that the Welsh Government will promote, as I've said, the success of its international network. I hope that the Welsh Government will continue to invest in an international vision, but one underpinned by a clear strategy of where we want Wales to be. At the moment, as has been said already in this debate, we need a strategy for the European Union. Myself and Adam Price were in Brussels this week representing Wales at the parliamentary partnership and at the Committee of the Regions. We need a clear strategy to ensure that the Welsh voice is heard in Brussels, that the Welsh voice is heard in the institutions of the EU, and that the Welsh voice helps shape policy in the future.

In that way, the work of the British Council that has already been referred to today is absolutely essential. I hope that the First Minister, in replying to this debate, will pay tribute to the work of the British Council in Wales and its ability to take our soft-power culture elsewhere across the world. And I hope, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, what we're able to do is not simply debate this report, but to accept its challenge.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak in this debate today on this committee report. I'm not on the committee. I have attended once or twice as a substitute, but I'm not on the committee. But I thought it'd really be a great opportunity to highlight, like John has done, some of the international work that has been done in the Wales and Africa programme.

Reading the report, I noticed it said that Claire O'Shea had submitted written evidence to the committee, but sadly died before she was able to give oral evidence. She was doing that in her role as chair of the Wales overseas agencies group, but I understand her evidence was used extensively in the report. I did mention in business questions yesterday the event organised at the Temple of Peace by Hub Cymru Africa, where there was a tremendous tribute to Claire, which showed her speaking about her work. But I thought it was worth saying that again—what a tremendous advocate she was for international development, seeing she has had a considerable influence on this report.

I think it's very important when we talk about international development that we do look—as well as at the offices, which I think are very important, and treaties—at the community-to-community work that John has already referred to. There are so many great schemes going on in Wales. I think that building of different individual small groups with other groups is a real way of making Wales's international links really meaningful.

John has mentioned the work in Uganda and the empowerment of women and girls. I'd like to mention Life for African Mothers, started off by the inspirational Angela Gorman, and where I was a trustee for many years, and PONT, which has, of course, been mentioned by John. All of these are absolutely fantastic programmes that I think are so important for Wales and so important for the world. 

I'd just like to particularly mention another project, a fantastic project taking place that's tackling antimicrobial resistance in Malawi and Wales. The Wales and Africa programme has supported this partnership between pharmacy professionals in Malawi and Wales to train together and to tackle antimicrobial resistance through education and training. The project operates in multiple hospitals across Malawi and is led by the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in Wales, with participation by the Swansea Bay University Health Board and the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board. I think that this project has enhanced Wales's role in global health engagement, and Welsh pharmacists have benefitted from professional development opportunities through this international collaboration.

I think that's such an important point: all these projects have had huge benefit for the Welsh professionals who've actually been involved in them. It's a mutual benefit, and I think it's so important that we talk about these projects, so that any public misunderstanding there is about them can be rectified, because they're of huge benefit to Wales, as well as benefit to the countries that we relate to. This particular project with pharmacists has showcased pharmacy practice in Wales, and pharmacists are being recognised as clinical leaders in this field. Those are just a few examples of some of the international work that I think is so important, and I wanted to have the opportunity to raise them today. 

But I have to say that I was very struck, in the committee report, by the quote by Jan Morris, saying that Wales has got an open border and that Wales has got an open door to the world. That's how I think we should operate: as an open door to the world. Diolch.

I call on the First Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start by thanking the committee for its final report on international relations and for its tireless efforts in scrutinising this important area of work. I'd also like to thank Delyth for her leadership of the committee. I know that that has been appreciated by Members.

In a period of uncertainty, conflict and division at a global level, Wales continues to send a clear and confident message that we are a nation that is outward-looking, is committed to international partnerships that are meaningful, and determined to ensure real benefits for our communities here at home.

Let me start by saying that we were clear in our priorities of the original international strategy—a strategy that I was very proud to lead as the first Minister for international relations, I think, ever appointed. That was something that you set out in your principle 4 of the committee's recommendations. I just want to make it clear that a lot of your recommendations were about what should happen next in the next Senedd. So, just to be clear, this is going to be something for the next Senedd, which is why many of them were in principle. I think it's really important that we're clear about that.

But let's go through those priorities: to raise the profile of Wales, to grow our economy and to establish Wales as a globally responsible nation. So, they were focused. There were three very clear things. And then what happened? We published the strategy just before the COVID pandemic hit and more or less the same time as Brexit happened. And that was way before the invasion of Ukraine, which threw everything else out as well, massive inflation, and obviously way before the current conflict in the middle east. One of the issues with international affairs is events. Things happen that are beyond your control. Whatever your intentions, they can be knocked out. And let me tell you, I remember sitting in the middle of the COVID pandemic, slashing my budget, just slashing it, because it needed to go to health, and because, frankly, you couldn't do any work internationally. So, whatever our intentions, whatever our ambitions, there were practicalities that got in the way. So, within weeks, much of our planned activity had to be paused, had to be reshaped or abandoned altogether, and the point is that the team just had to adjust and adapt to global events. And I think they've been unapologetic in jumping on opportunities that we couldn't have foreseen. So, things like the Welsh women's football team qualifying for the Euros—you can't plan for that, we didn't know that that was going to happen when we first published this report, but you've got to be ready to jump on it. The same thing with the men's football team qualifying for the world cup—that raised our profile much higher than anything we could've put in the strategy to begin with. So, I get what you're saying in terms of, 'Right, set out what you want to achieve', but, actually, sometimes you've just got to jump on it and take advantage.

Will you take an intervention?

Sure.

I completely accept what you say, First Minister, we can't predict these, but one of the things that has come through in our scrutiny sessions has been officials telling us that they haven't been planning in case these happen, or having the plans ready to go, and actually admitting to us that they planned legacy post events. So, would you accept that there is some work for us to do and be confident that Wales will qualify, so that we're in a better position to be able to get the ball rolling, as it were, when we do qualify and be able to really take advantage of those opportunities?

Look, there are a million things I'd have loved to have done in the international strategy. There are so many opportunities for us to raise our profile internationally. We are talking about a tiny budget and a small number of people doing it. Now, we could prepare for loads of eventualities—every time you're doing that, you're not getting on with what you've got in front of you. So, you're right, we can prepare, but it would take you away from doing other work when your resources are really, really small. So, look, these are all choices, and you're right to scrutinise us on those choices, but given my time again, I would say, 'Do you know what? You don't know, so in the meantime, crack on with your day job, and if they win, move fast', which is what they did. That's exactly what they did—they moved fast and we were all over the Euros; we were everywhere in Switzerland.

Now, I think responding to those unplanned opportunities can create that perception of reduced transparency or an inability to stick to the strategy—I get that, I get what it looks like. But we were thrown out right from the beginning; we had almost two years of not being able to do very much at all. And actually, the switch that we made, on our international exports—we had a whole load of export missions planned; they were switched off overnight, you couldn't go anywhere. But what did we do? We did loads of them virtually, we found a whole new way of doing things. So, that flexibility, I think, is something that is important.

Now, when it comes to growing our economy, I think the record speaks for itself. In the past year alone, Wales has secured over £16 billion in inward investment, and we successfully hosted the first Wales investment summit. Now, again, this wasn't originally in the strategy, but the fact is that the summit proved a major success and it came on top of a 30 per cent increase in the number of jobs created through inward investment, even prior to the summit, far surpassing performance elsewhere in the UK.

Now, since 2020, Wales has attracted 280 investment projects from companies that are foreign owned, creating and safeguarding more than 24,000 jobs. Today, 176,000 people are employed by more than 1,500 companies that are foreign owned across Wales, and I want to see more of that happening.

What this demonstrates is sustained long-term success in attracting and retaining high-value investment, and I can give you a whole load of examples. We've got Siemens in Llanberis, we've got Shotton in north Wales, we've got KLA. And just this morning, I've been to see hundreds of millions of pounds being invested by Tata Steel in the electric arc furnace in Port Talbot. Now, these investments aren't accidental, they are generally the result of a team Wales approach—our overseas network, our invest teams, our Ministers and our partners that we work strategically, confidently and collaboratively with. And if you look at things like Vishay—a £200 million investment following co-ordinated work.

And if you look at exports, we've generated £112 million in new orders, already surpassing last year—that's this year, with a quarter of a year still to go. So, I think successes matter. I think it also demonstrates that international engagement is not optional, and let's be clear here, there are people in this Chamber today and people who want to be in the Chamber tomorrow who would switch all this stuff off. It's really important to remember that, actually, a £112 million injection into our economy as a result of exports is important. So, these successes matter.

When it comes to Wales being recognised as a globally responsible nation, our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 continues to inspire Governments around the world, and it's now informing the EU's work on intergenerational fairness. We've got the Taith programme, which is transforming lives, and has been recognised by the European Parliament as a model, in particular for reaching disadvantaged learners.

Our overseas network is central to Wales's growing international impact. So, just to give you an example of the kinds of things they pick up on, in the North American office, they heard about Martha Hughes Cannon, jumped on her and have created these big links now with, also, a statue, I think, in Llandudno. The Paris office has jumped on the opportunities in relation to UNESCO. And then sometimes we just come across crises. It's great to see Denise here and her team, and I wish all the best and thank her for everything she's done for Wales-Irish relations. Happy St Patrick's Day for yesterday. But that's an example of where there was a real crisis with the ports, it was a real problem. But we were on it straight away, and, as a result of that, we've created a whole new infrastructure to make sure that that doesn't happen. But, again, you can't put that in an international strategy. We didn't know there were going to be failings at the port, but what we did have was a structure to meet it when it came.

Our international success is never achieved alone. Our stakeholders, our strategic partners are a critical part of team Wales, so I thought it was a little bit disappointing that the collaborative work of our strategic partners wasn't explicitly recognised or reflected in the committee's report, because team Wales is the way we do it. It's been showcased at the World Congress on Sports Diplomacy in the Basque Country, and our broader approach to international relations was profiled at a symposium in Washington D.C. There's a whole load of partnerships we work with, Hijinx Theatre, the Urdd—

First Minister, I have been generous.

Fine. I've got so much more to say—

And you haven't got the time.

Let me just finish with this, then. Actually, the amount we spend on this is really small. It's about £8 million a year. It's not a huge amount, and for that we had 300 actions that we were trying to undertake. I think the team has done a remarkable job of raising our profile internationally. I hear you when you say you want to scrutinise. I understand that. It is important to scrutinise. We are talking about a budget of 0.03 per cent of the entire Welsh Government budget. It's absolutely right that you scrutinise it. It's absolutely right that you appreciate the importance of that internationally.

But I just want to reiterate there are people who want to come in here who want to switch all this work off, and I think we've got to fight for this. We've got to fight for our voice to be heard internationally and to make sure that people appreciate that what happens abroad will have an impact here. If you didn't believe that before now, you should have believed it since the turmoil in the middle east. It is having a direct impact on us. We need to know what's going on, and we need to play our role internationally. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. What an important and timely debate.

We heard a celebration of the successes of international relations work, but that's what we've been wanting to see.

That is precisely what we've been wishing to do and to arm ourselves with the knowledge in order to do that. 

I thank John for your comments.

Thanks for mentioning some of your own family's international relationships, and those relationships enrich so many of our lives. As with individuals, so too with Governments, of course, so too with Seneddau. Thank you for mentioning the work of the Welsh Government in Africa. I too regret deeply that these vitally important, life‑saving, life‑changing projects have been weaponised by too many in political debate, as though helping people in other parts of our fragile world impoverishes us, whereas, actually, it enriches and protects us all in this world that is more fragile than we realise.

Diolch, Gareth, for setting out your stance on this and how confidence should be matched by clarity, and you talked about how the lack of a clear direction has at times hampered our work and indeed the importance of effective scrutiny. And thank you for quoting the British Council, who are so key in all of this, of course. And as Gareth said, this is not about process for process's sake, but ensuring that we see the results where they are.

So, thank you very much, Gareth, and for your kind words.

Mick set out why the international context makes this report so urgent and so timely again. Our voice must never be silenced, our identity must not be lost. I say again, we may be located on the corner of a continent, but our voice must never be marginal. 'Mission Cymru' and its principles should indeed be a blueprint, and Mick's view, of course, that the next Government should consider having a stand-alone international relations Minister—the future Government should consider this, although we haven't come to a view conclusively as a committee on this, of course. But diolch, Mick and Alun, for your leadership on behalf of the Senedd on efforts to support Ukraine. The memorial will be a tribute not just to Gareth Jones, but to your work too, and the solidarity that you have helped bring and foster.

Thank you, both.

Heledd talked about the frustration with some elements of the responses that we had. Of course, we've always tried to be constructive, and we need purposeful scrutiny of these issues, which is perhaps a reason for looking at this and not just assessing this each Senedd, but we have to ensure, because of the successes that we hear about and the importance of this, what is at stake. And, yes, we do recognise, of course, that resources are scarce, and that's why we need to understand more clearly where the gains have been. Thank you once again for that, Heledd.

Alun said that, of course, yes, we are the only two Members who have served the full term on the committee. I could make a joke about good behaviour; I'll let everyone else fill in the gaps—[Laughter.]—but, truly, it has been a pleasure. We have one more committee debate to go, so this is not the final committee debate. That is next week, so I'll have to say it all again. Alun cast a long glance back to the time of the saints, where the sea was not a barrier but a bridge, as Alun said. It put me in mind of that wonderful image from the Mabinogi—Bendigeidfran creating a bridge out of his body to connect the islands. In the story, it was in a time of war, but we won't let that metaphor be ruined by that little inconvenient fact; it is an image that has stood the test of time. And, yes, Alun, Wales's place in the world has indeed been defined by our people inserting ourselves into history, making that history, sometimes physically. And indeed, we are defined in Wales by our internationalism and our vision of Wales in the world. Amen to that.

Now, Julie has been an honorary member. We have a few honorary members of the committee who have served at certain parts of time or certain sessions, so thank you so much for speaking and for highlighting the successes of Wales and Africa again. Many of these projects have saved lives, they have improved people's lives, they matter. And thank you for mentioning Claire O'Shea, whose words really enriched our work. Claire passed away before she was able to give oral evidence to us, but what she sent us was invaluable. Long may her legacy continue. And thank you for mentioning those wonderful words of Jan Morris—some of my favourites as well.

I thank the First Minister for her response, of course, and her kind words. We are a small country that continues to look outwards. 

And thank you for clarifying how some of the recommendations, of course, were accepted in principle only. To reword Harold—was it Harold Macmillan—'Events, dear Senedd, events.' Of course, there has to be flexibility because of those events. Any ship that is seaworthy has to be able to take in storms, and that is why the anchor and the sails are so important—an anchor to keep things steadfast in times of trouble, sails to help it soar.

So, thank you very much.

I would associate myself entirely with the words you said at the end about where we stand at this fragile moment in time.

In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, there may, of course, be areas here where we disagree, but I'm heartened that that is only because we all want the same outcome here: for Wales to excel on the world stage. That is why we have reiterated our conclusion that the Welsh Government sometimes has done itself a disservice by not always capturing its work to us as clearly as it might. We all know how vital it is, Wales having the best approach—how important that is, that we get it right. We believe that adopting 'Mission Cymru' would be the best way to position future Governments for Wales's next international chapter. And the First Minister's words, that it helps provide helpful guidance for future Governments—those, too, are important. The First Minister's response will also help guide them. As we look to that future, it will be incumbent on our successors to consider if the principles are met, and I hope that a future committee continues our work and continues to rely on that rich body of evidence we have gathered, and, to return to Bendigeidfran, 'A fo ben bid bont.'

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 10 this afternoon is the debate on the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee report, 'Consideration of the UK COVID-19 Inquiry Module 1 Report'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The COVID-19 pandemic was one of the most consequential and devastating events in living memory. It touched every community across Wales, claimed lives, disrupted businesses and placed an unprecedented strain on our health, care and education systems, as well as our economy and public finances. For many, its consequences continue to be felt, and will be for decades to come. As a Senedd, we owe it to those affected to examine the decisions that shaped Wales's experience of the pandemic, and ensure that those decisions are subject to robust and transparent scrutiny.

The Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee's inquiry is our contribution to this vital task. This builds on the findings of both the UK COVID-19 inquiry module 1 report and the gaps in the preparedness and response of the Welsh Government identified by the Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee. In undertaking our work, we focused on the extent to which the Welsh Government has responded to the findings and recommendations of module 1, the adequacy of the changes made to its approach to civil contingencies planning, and its preparedness for future emergencies. Members will be aware that the First Minister made a statement yesterday on the Welsh Government's response to the UK COVID-19 inquiry module 1 report. As our committee's report only focused on the Welsh Government's response to module 1, I will only focus on those issues during our debate today. Consideration and scrutiny of the remaining nine modules of the UK COVID-19 inquiry will be a matter for the next Senedd. Given the significance of this work, and the importance of ensuring that the lessons from the pandemic are learnt and embedded, the committee believes it is essential that this programme of scrutiny continues.

So, I will start by reiterating my thanks to all those who gave evidence, particularly the individuals and families who shared deeply personal experiences, and to Dr Simon Williams, the committee's independent expert adviser, for his invaluable insights. I also acknowledge calls from the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru campaign group, and many others, for the establishment of a dedicated public inquiry into the handling of the COVID-19 pandemic in Wales. It is important to emphasise from the outset that our work is not a substitute for a Wales-specific COVID inquiry. The decision on whether or not to commission a Welsh statutory public inquiry is also ultimately one for the Welsh Government, and not the Senedd. With that said, we endeavoured to use the limited time available to highlight areas for improvement to ensure that Wales is more resilient and better prepared to respond to future emergencies.

Through our inquiry, we heard about the reforms the Welsh Government has introduced since the pandemic, including the development of the Wales resilience framework, the reconstitution of the Wales resilience forum, and the steps it has taken to strengthen governance and risk management. Yet while significant progress has been made, we heard that concerns remain about the absence of independent scrutiny to assess Wales's revised resilience and preparedness arrangements. Stakeholders felt that much of the Welsh Government's reporting on progress is too reliant on self-assessment. We heard that, while structures may have been streamlined on paper, there is insufficient publicly available evidence to demonstrate how effectively these revised systems are working in practice, or whether they would withstand the pressures of another major emergency.

The people of Wales should feel confident that our systems will hold up under pressure, and subjecting emergency plans to external scrutiny is essential to building true resilience. The system for evaluating the effectiveness of civil contingencies arrangements in Wales remains insufficiently robust. We've found that it relies heavily on qualitative judgments, such as unpublished feedback from responders or the absence of noticeable disruption during recent incidents, rather than measurable, independently substantiated evidence. We've therefore recommended that clear, measurable performance indicators be introduced, modelled on international best practice, to conclusively show whether we're seeing measurable improvements in the way we respond to emergencies. We also call for regular independent reviews of Wales's civil contingency arrangements, and for the findings of these reviews to be made available to the public to enhance transparency and enable effective scrutiny. This would provide the people of Wales with genuine assurance that our emergency response systems are continually improving, learning from experience, and working as well as they can be.

We also heard that, despite significant revisions since the pandemic, Wales's civil contingency system remains complex, with significant pressures placed on national responders, who are expected to service multiple local response structures simultaneously. We've therefore made recommendations aimed at improving co-ordination of those involved in emergency response at the local and national level. This includes detailed mapping of civil contingency structures to set out in straightforward terms how they should operate during and after an emergency situation. This would provide responders with clear, accessible information on roles and responsibilities, escalation protocols, decision-making hierarchies, lines of accountability and communication flows—all matters raised with us.

Turning to other areas of our report, we heard how regular preparedness exercises are vital to ensure that our response systems are stress-tested and ready to respond to a vast variety of potential emergency scenarios. Yet we remain concerned about the resourcing challenges facing emergency responders, who need to balance maintaining front-line services with preparing for future emergencies. To address this, we've recommended that the Welsh Government establishes a national multi-agency training and exercising unit, similar to that in Scotland. Responders told us that this national-level support is vital not only to ease the resourcing pressures they face, but also to preserve institutional memory and ensure that learning is consistently captured and shared across partner agencies.

Our work highlighted the indispensable role that Wales's voluntary organisations play in strengthening Wales's national resilience. Yet it is equally clear that the potential of this sector to support our response and recovery efforts is not being fully realised, with voluntary organisations too often remaining on the periphery of decision making, emergency planning structures and resourcing. We also heard repeated concerns that barriers to data sharing impede their ability to respond swiftly and effectively. One example of this was provided by the British Red Cross, who said they were unable to support the victims of last year's Monmouthshire floods, despite being ready and able to do so, because statutory agencies were not willing to share relevant data with them.

But these issues are not insurmountable. We heard examples of initiatives established during the pandemic, such as prescription deliveries for clinically vulnerable people who were shielding, which demonstrated that these data-sharing challenges can be overcome where the will exists. Our committee believes these examples should be the rule rather than the exception. We make a number of recommendations aimed at driving a more systematic integration of the voluntary sector into Wales’s civil contingencies arrangements. These include improved mechanisms for lawful and timely data sharing, and a sustainable funding model that ensures that the sector is adequately resourced and able to direct funds to where they're needed most.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the pandemic exposed deep-rooted inequalities across our society. Age, ethnicity, disability and socioeconomic status were key factors that determined a person's likelihood of serious illness or death from COVID-19. We also heard evidence about the disproportionate impact of the pandemic on different protected characteristics groups. A recurring theme was the failure of official guidance and communications to account for the specific needs and experience of these groups.

As Members, we reflected on our own experiences during the pandemic and the representations we received from a wide range of organisations on this issue. For example, Government guidance and communication often failed to meet the communication needs of disabled people. Blind and partially-sighted people were sent vital information, such as shielding and vaccination appointment letters, in standard print formats that they were unable to read independently. Absence of consistent British Sign Language provision, on both broadcast and social media channels, was consistently highlighted as a barrier to accessing essential information by deaf people throughout the pandemic. More must therefore be done to ensure that organisations with relevant expertise are able to bring their valuable insights to bear to enhance our resilience. That is why we've made a number of recommendations aimed at facilitating consistent engagement and co-production with groups identified as being more vulnerable to specific emergencies so that our resilience systems are better prepared in future. Wales cannot afford for the impact of future emergencies to be felt most keenly by specific communities or those most at risk.

To conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, as a committee, we approached this work with a clear intention—to ensure that the difficult lessons of the pandemic lead to real and lasting improvements for the people of Wales. Our objective has been to not only scrutinise but also to contribute constructively to the development of a civil contingencies system that is robust, stress tested, independently scrutinised and capable of protecting our communities. Our report sets out lessons that should be learnt from the pandemic to ensure that Wales is more resilient and able to effectively respond to the challenges that we will inevitably face in the future. The people of Wales deserve no less. Diolch.

First of all, I would like to express my sincerest condolences to all those who lost loved ones during the pandemic and also to those who continue to live with its outcomes, including the thousands that are suffering from long COVID.

I also want to thank the committee for its work, though, of course, this is a report that should never have needed to be written, because the fact that this responsibility has fallen to the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee is deeply troubling. It reflects not only the failure of the special purpose committee to fulfil its remit, but also a wider and more worrying pattern—a Government too reluctant to embrace accountability, and too unwilling to confront honestly the legacy of the pandemic.

Let me be clear. The Welsh Government was right to use its devolved powers to pursue a tailored response. In some instances, that approach did protect Wales from the worst excesses of the reckless decision making we saw under Boris Johnson. But we can't ignore the other side of that ledger. Serious mistakes were made, avoidable mistakes, and we discussed those plainly yesterday. That is why it's simply not credible to claim on the one hand the right to do things differently, while on the other insisting that a UK-wide inquiry, one whose chair has already acknowledged cannot fully examine the Welsh experience, is sufficient.

The committee's findings show clearly that this has real-world consequences. As the chair states in the foreword:

'Wales's system for evaluating the effectiveness of its civil contingencies arrangements remains insufficiently robust, with an over-reliance on self-reporting'.

The report goes on to conclude that there is insufficient publicly available evidence to demonstrate whether these systems are truly effective,

'or whether they would withstand the pressures of another major emergency.'

So, here we are, almost four years on from the lifting of the final restrictions, and we are still not where we need to be. We can't say with confidence that we are fully prepared. We can't say with certainty that the lessons of the pandemic have been embedded. Instead, we're being asked to take the Government at its word. But their word alone isn't enough, because time and again we've seen a gap between what is said and what is delivered. So, does the Cabinet Secretary agree with the committee that the Government should publish clear, quantitative performance indicators on civil contingencies, so that the public can see in measurable terms how prepared we really are, and if so, will that be done before this election? And alongside that, will the Government commit to publishing a public-facing Welsh risk register, setting out not only the risks we face, but the actions it would take in response? If not, what's stopping the Government from doing this?

Ultimately, this comes down to a political choice. The Government has chosen not to subject its pandemic record to full, Wales-specific scrutiny, unlike the approach taken in Scotland. If we are given the opportunity to lead the next Welsh Government, we'll take a different path. We'll implement the central recommendation of this report by ensuring that the Senedd examines each remaining inquiry module through a Welsh lens. And more than that, we'll establish a dedicated Wales-specific review of the pandemic response to fill the gaps left by the UK inquiry, including critical issues such as care home testing. We'll also act on the report's warning about the over-complexity of the current system, by delivering a one-Wales public service approach, bringing greater clarity, co-ordination and accountability to how we plan for and respond to emergencies.

This isn't about apportioning blame. It's not about relitigating every decision. It's about something far more important than that. It's about honesty. It's about accountability. And above all, it's about ensuring that the suffering endured by so many families across Wales was not in vain, but instead leads to a system that's stronger, more transparent and better prepared for whatever comes next.

The Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee investigation was short, being constrained, at least in part, by the date of the Senedd's dissolution. I intend to highlight some points in the report before putting COVID-19 into context.

Stakeholders that gave evidence to the committee highlighted the disproportionate impact of the pandemic on black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, multi-occupancy households, and low-paid or visa-dependent workers. Is that a surprise to anybody? Voluntary organisations stressed that resilience looks different for different communities, and I agree with the British Red Cross, who called for 'intelligent mapping' of these needs and mechanisms to provide tailored assistance.

The committee heard many examples of how the pandemic affected communities differently. The Co-Production Network for Wales told the committee that diverse lived experiences were not adequately considered in the initial response and recommended embedding co-production practices into future planning. Race Council Wales echoed this, stressing the importance of involving communities from the outset.

The UK COVID-19 inquiry module 1 report emphasises that effective emergency preparation depends on access to reliable, high-quality and up-to-date data. The report emphasises that, from the earliest stages of a pandemic or other major civil emergency, decision makers require reliable information on system capabilities, potential impacts on vulnerable groups, emerging and concurrent risks, and the nature of the threat itself. The inquiry highlighted the need for strong data-gathering systems, which can provide administrative data on things like the number of available hospital beds, and scientific research, such as the effectiveness of countermeasures, to be in place before a crisis begins. Without access to such data, those managing an emergency face significant uncertainty. It recommended the establishment of mechanisms for the timely collection, analysis, secure sharing and use of reliable data for informing emergency responses, in advance of future pandemics. The inquiry also called for improved co-operation between the UK and devolved Governments, particularly in relation to data sharing.

COVID came as a shock. There had been several potential pandemics, but all since Spanish flu had not seriously affected Britain. Remember when the Government spent millions of pounds buying Tamiflu, which was going to be the latest threat, and then it wasn't? The last time we had a major flu outbreak was in 1957, and that caused a million deaths worldwide. After 1 April 2025, the confirmed global death toll attributed to COVID-19 stands at over 7 million, to put it in some sort of context.

We have been told that,

'from the beginning, it was clear that the coronavirus was aerosol transmitted, and yet everybody denied that it was aerosol.'

I don't think anybody denied that.

'They insisted it was droplets, so had us all washing our hands and mopping down our shopping. That does not protect you from COVID. It is the biggest public health disaster ever, and they had the wrong mode of transmission.' 

That is not just wrong, it is dangerous. Droplets from the mouth and nose can contaminate hands, cups, toys, food items or any other items that people touch. And if they touch them and then touch their nose or mouth, these can penetrate deep into the lungs. Examples of infections that are spread in this way are the common cold, COVID-19 and influenza. That is why hand washing and cleaning shopping was important.

Can I just say, hand washing is always important? And that's something the Welsh Government has never quite got across and Public Health Wales has not got across, the importance of hand washing, regular hand washing, and hand sanitising. It is a really important thing for people to do and too few people do it. This is also why wearing a mask is important. I live in the university city of Swansea and it's common to see people from south-east Asia wearing a mask. To them, it's a natural thing to do. If they're walking down the road, they have a mask on.

Three pieces of advice: calling the virus 'COVID', 'COVID-19', 'coronavirus' and 'SARS' not only confused people, it left people saying, 'They don't know what it is.' There's a need for the same name to be used by everyone, so that we have some understanding amongst the public of exactly what's happening.

Something we need to do in general is distinguish between a cold and the flu. We have known people who say they have a touch of flu, but if you had flu, you could not function. I had flu when I was in my early 30s and it wiped me out for over a week. Some people may remember—including you, Presiding Officer—a few weeks ago, I had a cough and a cold, which didn't help proceedings. That was not flu. If it was flu, I would not have been able to drive out of my street, never mind drive to Cardiff.

Finally, no area is immune to a flu-type virus. Lock down early to prevent the transmission if an area has not had it, and then it would almost certainly not be down to local immunity, it would be due to it not having reached there yet. We really do need to get into the habit of looking after our health. And until we start doing that, we'll always be at risk of a flu-type virus.

The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice will now contribute. Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Llywydd. And can I just start by thanking Mark Isherwood, the Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, and the committee and all members, for their work examining the Welsh Government's response to the UK COVID-19 inquiry's report, and their recommendations about preparedness? These are important findings that will help to further strengthen Wales's ability to prepare for and respond to future pandemics and emergencies. As the committee acknowledges, it will be for the next Government to respond formally to its recommendations. However, this afternoon is an opportunity for me to set out the action we've already taken and the work that is in train to address the areas of improvement that the committee has identified in the course of its inquiry.

Work to strengthen Wales's preparedness started before the UK COVID-19 inquiry published its module 1 report and recommendations in 2024. We started work in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic, but that work was intensified and has been reinforced by the inquiry process and recommendations.

Wales has strengthened how emergency services, public bodies and Government itself prepare for and respond to major incidents. Guided by the Wales resilience framework, which was announced by the First Minister in May 2025, we've built a more robust national approach to risk management, preparedness and response. This includes a shared risk picture, clearer response protocols, strengthened leadership and oversight arrangements, regular joint exercises and independent scrutiny of our work.

The framework enshrines a set of core principles for resilience activity in Wales, including a once-for-Wales approach, which means all partners are committed to taking a unified, consistent, whole-system method to address risks and strengthen preparedness, ensuring actions are done once, well-applied everywhere, for maximum impact. This approach has been thoroughly tested in response to a series of real-world emergencies and in last autumn's four-nation pandemic Exercise Pegasus. The evidence, including from the emergency services, shows these reforms have enabled better preparedness and more rapid multi-agency mobilisation and co-ordination during flooding and major water outages, severe storms, transport infrastructure disruption, cyber attacks, and emerging public and animal health threats.

Llywydd, we've launched a substantial reform programme, guided by the lessons learned in the pandemic, other recent emergencies, and from the module 1 recommendations. I also thank all those who gave evidence to the committee and to the UK inquiry.

In 2023, we completed an independent review of Wales's civil contingency arrangements and, in 2024, we set up the risk and preparedness committee. This cross-government group meets quarterly and can transition rapidly from risk oversight to crisis response. We've also launched a significant resilience capabilities programme, in partnership with the UK Resilience Academy, to deliver structured capability uplift across Wales, including preparedness, exercising lessons management, and crisis and risk management functions. We set up the programme to provide a coherent platform for professionalising resilience work in Wales.

We're determined at the ministerial level to ensure that—. Well, not only as the First Minister chairs this, but the Cabinet is committed to annual Cabinet sessions dedicated to emergency preparedness. So, now, the First Minister makes an annual statement to the Senedd about resilience, and there is a report every Senedd term on the state of Wales's resilience.

Wales had its first bespoke classified risk register in 2024, produced jointly with the four local resilience forum risk groups and reflecting Welsh-specific characteristics. It draws on the UK national security risk assessment, but adapts for devolved responsibilities and local context. The risk register has been independently reviewed to provide a robust, classified, Wales-specific assessment, to provide an in-depth analysis of risks and their implications, and to enable detailed responder and Government planning against the risks we face over the next five years.

But it is important that we are committed to transparency, and it's important, as well, to say that terms of reference and summary notes for both the Wales resilience forum and partnership are publicly available on the Welsh Government website. As I said, the First Minister will provide annual statements and periodic state-of-resilience reports to the Senedd.

We engage with all parts of the responder community, including the voluntary sector, and in 2025, the Wales resilience forum was reformed to unite leaders from category 1 and category 2 emergency responder organisations and the third sector. The voluntary and third sector plays a key role in strengthening Wales's resilience, particularly reflecting the needs of some of the most vulnerable people in Wales, and those with protected characteristics. They're represented on local resilience forums, Wales resilience partnership, but we want to go further, and I really welcome this as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, responsible for the third sector.

We will deepen our partnership with the sector, and this includes improving access to platforms such as ResilienceDirect, and increase opportunities to contribute to the Wales risk register, enhancing data-sharing arrangements and contributing their expertise in exercising preparedness. We're also exploring how emergency funding mechanisms can be made more timely. The sector's contribution during Exercise Pegasus and real-world incidents has been invaluable, and we're committed to strengthening this relationship further.

Llywydd, civil contingencies is inherently complex, and more than 100 risks are captured in the Wales risk register, involving more than 50 statutory responders in a wide range of disciplines. Effective oversight relies on multiple expert groups and professional capabilities, and we note the reflection to the committee that there's more to do in this area to reduce the complexity for those engaging with the structures.

We completed Wales's first bespoke civil contingencies risk register in late 2024. This has been independently reviewed to provide a robust, classified Wales-specific assessment, to provide an in-depth analysis of risks and their implications, and to enable detailed responder and Government planning against the risks we face over the next five years.

Six-monthly resilience outlook reports ensure that assessments are current and focused, and we collaborate with UK and devolved Governments on improving risk methodologies. This year, we're developing new advice and guidance for the public, so they are fully informed of the risks we face and how they can best prepare for emergencies.

We're strengthening how equality is embedded in our emergency response. Equality impact assessments are now incorporated into situation updates for high-risk incidents, and our revised concept of operations includes an equalities and equity cell. During Exercise Pegasus, we piloted an enduring taskforce model that included an equalities team to ensure the needs of vulnerable and at-risk groups were actively considered.

We are improving data sharing through digital tools, strengthening health and social care data interoperability through the Welsh emergency care dataset, and enhancing data sharing protocols. We have a dedicated equality impact improvement plan team now leading organisation-wide impact assessment.

Finally, Llywydd, I assure our colleagues and the committee that robust governance is in place for the digital health protection programme led by Public Health Wales, supported by £2.29 million in funding, and the first build of the new Tarian 2 system, designed to support outbreak management, mass testing and contact tracing, is scheduled for completion in autumn 2026.

Llywydd, this week we have formally responded to the UK COVID-19 inquiry's module 2 report and recommendations about Government decision making. Today, we received and debated this valuable report from our own Senedd committee with further reflections about how we can strengthen preparedness and resilience. Tomorrow, we expect the next report and set of recommendations from the UK COVID-19 inquiry about the impact of the pandemic on our healthcare system.

Each of these is an opportunity to reflect, to learn, to make changes so we can face the future stronger. But we do so with compassion for all those who have been and continue to be affected by the pandemic. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Thanks to all the contributors. Mabon ap Gwynfor quite rightly expressed condolences to all who lost loved ones and our collective thoughts across the Chamber for those who are suffering long COVID. As he said, this report should never have been needed to be written. It exposed, he said, a wider denial of full scrutiny and accountability by the Welsh Government. Serious avoidable mistakes were made, and it's not credible to both proclaim a right to do things differently and then rely on a UK-wide inquiry.

He referred to the gap between what is said and what is delivered, and the need for performance indicators and Welsh risk indicators. He referred to critical issues, such as care home testing. Of course, that will be subject to a further module. This specific issue wasn't part of the preparedness, although it was reflected in some of our findings. We need robust apportioning of blame, I think he said, if I've got this correctly, and it's about honest accountability and ensuring that suffering by the families was not in vain.

Thank you to Mike Hedges, not only for his speech today, but for his contribution to the inquiry, which was valued. He referred to several different bodies, including the Co-production Network for Wales, and that diverse experience was not sufficiently embedded. He referred to the need for access to high-quality, up-to-date data. He rightly emphasised that transmission of the virus was through aerosol and surfaces; it wasn't an either/or. I would say that COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice have since confirmed that that is their understanding.

The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, thank you for your response and for acknowledging—[Interruption.] Carolyn Thomas, yes. 

I was listening to the debate and it reminded me of a petition that we had regarding long COVID. I was astounded by the amount of people who do have long COVID now who would like to perhaps enter into the workforce but with flexibility. These are people who have worked for the health service, teachers and would like to work because they need to earn an income as well, but they need that flexibility. And I was just wondering if that is something that was touched on by your inquiry. Thank you for letting me intervene.

Thank you. It was referenced, but it was more captured by the wider attention, which I referred to, for disabled people, people with protected characteristics. I know that, increasingly, people suffering long COVID are working with the ME community, for example, and there are many areas of hidden disabilities and conditions that we need to better support if we're going to remove the barriers that prevent them contributing as they wish to. 

As the Cabinet Secretary said, however, these are important findings helping preparations for future pandemics and emergencies by the next Welsh Government. She outlined the actions to date taken by the current Welsh Government, and, of course, my speech acknowledged some of those, particularly the reforms that the Welsh Government introduced, including the development of the Wales resilience framework, reconstitution of the Wales resilience forum and steps taken to strengthen governance and risk management. Of course, the Cabinet Secretary outlined and developed on those beyond that also.

She said, however, that other evidence and recommendations related to the situation now, after many of these—. That's my note to myself—I apologise, Cabinet Secretary. Our recommendations, of course, related to the situation now, after many of these actions had been taken. The evidence we received from a number of bodies, including responders, the third sector and others, was in the context of where we are after those actions, including the welcome actions you describe in 2024 and so on. As you rightly said, the voluntary sector plays a key role in contributing to Wales's resilience. I therefore hope that you will pick up on and agree with our findings in relation to the voluntary sector and the changes that we need to make to ensure that they're embedded in true co-production, designing and delivering on a systematic basis and involving them in monitoring and stress testing, alongside responders and others, in the future.

As I said, we remain concerned about resourcing challenges facing emergency responders and some of the other matters they highlighted. I again said it's equally clear that the potential of the voluntary sector's support or response and recovery efforts is not being fully realised. I mentioned the absence of independent scrutiny to assess Wales's revised resilience and preparedness arrangements. And there were recommendations aimed at facilitating consistent engagement and co-production with groups identified as being more vulnerable to specific emergencies. As I said, we approach this to ensure that the difficult lessons of the pandemic lead to real and lasting improvements for the people of Wales. It's not our role to lay blame, but rather to learn and hopefully see the learnings from this taken forward in the future, not only scrutinising but contributing constructively to the development of a civil contingencies system that is robust, stress-tested, independently scrutinised and capable of protecting our communities.

I'll finally refer to the reference I made, and Mabon ap Gwynfor made, in relation to a COVID inquiry. Again, it wasn't for us to recommend a COVID inquiry, but rather to recognise the strongly expressed views by a number of witnesses, including the families, that we still do need a Wales-specific COVID inquiry. Acknowledging the decision on whether to commission this will ultimately be for the next Welsh Government, and if I take my hat off as Chair for a moment and speak independently, I hope it's going to happen. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. That is therefore agreed. 

The Plaid Cymru debate is next, on the UK Government's spending in Wales. Heledd Fychan will move the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. Today's debate is our opportunity as a Senedd to unite and stand up not for ourselves but for this democratic institution. It's an opportunity to send a clear message to the UK Government that they should not make spending decisions in Wales when those decisions are opposed by the Welsh Government of the day. We hoped that, by proposing this as our final opposition debate prior to the election, we could speak with one voice as a Senedd on something that should be a matter of principle, irrespective of party. And I can't help but be disappointed by the amendment put forward by the very Government we are standing up for. And to be clear, we cannot support such a diluted and weak position. Wales deserves better from the UK Government and this Senedd deserves better from its own Government.

How many times have we heard Labour Members here describe their party as the party of devolution? How hollow those claims seem now, especially in light of the memo that came to light last week. Those who know their history, however, will not be surprised by the UK Labour Party's position. Entrenched scepticism and even outright hostility to the notion of Welsh self-government, embodied by grandees like Neil Kinnock, has been ever-present in the Labour Party for decades. But under Keir Starmer's leadership, we have seen the further marginalisation of pro-devolution voices within the Labour Party, and the rise of a form of anti-devolution muscular unionism, which not only seems willing to but seems to take delight in undermining the authority of the Senedd.

The warning signs were evident even before the general election. The compelling case for devolving justice and policing was dismissed, despite strong evidence that doing so would lead to better outcomes for communities across Wales. The party retreated from established commitments to reform the restrictive fiscal framework that continues to disadvantage Wales compared to other legislatures. Candidates with little understanding of devolution were parachuted into Welsh constituencies—something later reflected in their confused comments on devolved areas, such as health and council tax. And since the election, these concerns have only intensified, because not only has the current UK Government made no effort to undo the damaging tendencies of its predecessors to ride roughshod over the devolution settlement, including by upholding the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, they've actively and brazenly sought to extend Westminster's mission creep in ways that would've been unimaginable only a few years ago.

We've seen every single Welsh Labour MP vote in unison to deny Wales the ability readily granted to Scotland to profit from its own natural resources through the devolution of the Crown Estate, contrary to the views of every single Welsh local authority. We've heard the Home Secretary's breathtakingly contemptuous response to the suggestion that the White Paper on police reform could be an opportunity to re-engage with the case for transferring powers over policing to Wales, thereby apparently prejudging the outcome of what is supposed to be an independent consultation. We've seen the roll-out of the Pride in Place programme that is not only an even poorer imitation of a poor imitation of EU structural funding, but also a direct challenge to devolved competencies, which was rightly called out by 11 Labour MSs. We've had the appointment of the most anti-devolution Welsh Secretary in over half a century, cut from the very same cloth as Neil Kinnock—not my words, but those of the Member for Llanelli.

And now, most damningly of all, the leaking of a memorandum that instructs UK Government Ministers and officials to actively interfere in devolved areas of responsibility, even when this may conflict with Welsh Government policy. It is the arrogance of the 'Westminster knows best' attitude writ large and plain for all to see. What makes this especially galling is the stark contrast with the UK Government's approach to devolution in England. The likes of Cumbria, Cheshire, Essex, Hampshire, East Anglia and Sussex have all been placed on a fast track for devolution without hesitation, while, in Wales, our devolution journey is being put firmly in reverse. Regrettably, rather than showing the strong leadership Wales needs, the First Minister's response has shown that the red Welsh way is nothing more than a slogan, in the same way that the so-called partnership in power is nothing more than empty words.

What has been the response? Denying, defending and deflecting on behalf of Labour HQ, rather than denouncing the memo with the ferocity it deserved. Indeed, the First Minister went further than the official response of her Westminster bosses in trying to excuse the contents of the memorandum, by claiming that it referred to reserved matters only, despite the text making no such qualification.

As we saw with the First Minister's narrative on the Government's surgical hubs programme, the First Minister's loose grasp of details, even on issues of fundamental importance such as this, is alarming. Moreover, as we've already seen with the implementation of the Pride in Place programme, the First Minister's interpretation is utterly contradicted by the actual evidence. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this UK Labour Government is determined to hold on to the levers of power at the expense of the devolved administrations. It's actually one of the few things on which it's shown any measure of consistency throughout its time in office.

If, as all the polling suggests, we are nearing the end of Labour's century-long reign in Wales, this memorandum will not have been its only cause. The trajectory of their decline and fall was set some time before. But, in years to come, it will stand testament to the complacency of a Labour Party that assumed it could take Wales and its voters for granted, and the moment when the illusion of Labour's apparent affinity for devolution was shattered for good.

And as is demonstrated by the number of ex-Labour voters who are coming over to Plaid Cymru, there is a clear yearning amongst the electorate for change from the status quo, a status quo that implies that accepting Westminster's supremacy is somehow normal. For us, standing up for Wales isn't an empty slogan to be discarded or downplayed when politically inconvenient. It is our purpose. We remain unwavering in our belief that power should be rooted in our communities and that meaningful devolution is essential to delivering real change for the people of Wales. We remain unwavering in our belief that our democracy here in Wales and the integrity of this Senedd must be safeguarded. I urge all Senedd Members to support the motion as presented and reject today's amendment.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Deputy First Minister to move the amendment formally.

Formally.

Yes, that's moved. Paul Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. It shouldn't come as a shock that the Welsh Conservative group will be opposing this motion this afternoon. Now, whether the nationalists like it or not, it is a fact that the people of Wales are served by two Governments. Whilst Plaid Cymru argue that Wales should effectively have a veto over decisions taken by the UK Government, it's a fact that Members of the UK Parliament are also democratically elected by the people of Wales. The truth is that Wales is stronger because it has two Governments working on behalf of its people—the Welsh Government in Cardiff Bay and the UK Government in Westminster.

Devolution was never designed to create two competing states within the United Kingdom. It was designed to bring decision making closer to the people, while retaining the strength of the UK as a whole, and I believe that that balance matters. This collaborative model promotes stability and shared responsibility. Whilst the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru together have a disastrous record of delivering improvements to public services here in Wales, the reality is that the alternative is independence, which would be catastrophic for the people of Wales.

Now, as we know, the Welsh Government has responsibility for a number of extremely important policy areas, like health, education and housing, but a significant amount of funding for those services comes from the UK Government through the block grant, and so, in essence, the resources of the whole of the United Kingdom support public services here in Wales. This is important because Wales consistently receives more public spending per person than the UK average. Indeed, as Members know, for every £1 spent in England, the Welsh Government receives £1.20 to spend on Welsh public services. Now, whether some accept this or not, the reality is that the difference between what we spend and what we raise in Wales is covered through our connection to the wider UK economy, and I believe that this is one of the great strengths of the United Kingdom because it means that Welsh public services benefit from the collective economic strength of the entire UK. Because what's the alternative? If Plaid Cymru had their way, that partnership would be destroyed, because their aim is to destroy the United Kingdom. I give way to the Member for Blaenau Gwent.

I'm grateful to you for giving way. You were making the argument that there's a choice of either the model we have today or independence. Would you not agree with me that there is actually a third way of a federal solution that guarantees delineated powers both for this place and for Westminster?

Look, it's no secret I believe in devolution; that's why I'm in this place. But independence would be absolutely catastrophic for us and for Wales as a whole. And let me tell the nationalists that if every UK decision affecting Wales required the Welsh Government's consent, we would be replacing co-operation with constitutional conflict. But, of course, that's what they want. More importantly, insisting on a veto would not deliver better outcomes for the people of Wales. What matters to families in Cardiff, farmers in Ceredigion and businesses in Colwyn Bay is not constitutional wrangling, it's where the Governments deliver, and the reality is that many of the investments that support our people and our businesses come directly from the UK Government. Whether it's funding for major infrastructure, support for industry like the free-ports programme, or UK-wide programmes that benefit Welsh communities, the people of Wales gain from being part of the UK's economy.

There are also many policy areas where responsibilities are shared or interconnected. Energy projects in fields like offshore wind and economic development often require co-ordination across the whole of the UK. In my view, dividing these issues rigidly along constitutional lines would only slow down decisions and hold Wales back. I give way to the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd.

So, I assume that the British nationalists over there are saying that if you formed Government here, you'd be happy and content with a Labour Government in Westminster running roughshod over your wishes and funding things in Wales against your will. I therefore assume that you accept that you're never going to form Government here.

Well, it's a bit rich that Plaid Cymru has tabled a motion on constitutional finance, given that their plans for independence would be a financial disaster for the people of Wales. It's fantasy economics. What Wales needs is not endless constitutional arguments, it needs delivery. Two Governments should not mean two Governments fighting each other; in fact, it should mean two Governments working together, serving the people—even though it's not working at the moment, but that's down to the Labour Party, isn't it? The Welsh Government should focus on delivering improvements in areas it controls, fixing our NHS, bringing down waiting lists, improving educational standards and strengthening local communities.

At the same time, I believe the UK Government should continue investing in Wales, strengthening our economy and ensuring that Wales benefits from the opportunities of the entire United Kingdom. That partnership, not separation, is what works, because the truth is simple: Wales does not suffer from having two Governments; it benefits from being part of a United Kingdom that pools resources, shares risks and invests across all its nations. So, instead of building constitutional barriers between Cardiff Bay and Westminster, we should be building co-operation, two Governments, one United Kingdom, working together for the people of Wales.

I'm trying to make sense of that contribution. You hit the importance of partnership. Look, I agree with you—in the current state of affairs, partnership has to be the priority. That's not what the motion is setting out, though. I think, actually, if you look at the memo that we've seen from the UK Government, that proves, actually, that partnership isn't happening at all. It's one of the many lessons that we can take away from that memo. And the other lesson we can take away from that memo, of course, is that the load of conventions that we have that are supposedly there to allow that partnership to happen mean absolutely nothing—absolutely nothing. They haven't protected and safeguarded devolution. They haven't respected Welsh democracy. So, yes, let's have partnership, but let's have it, actually, on the equal terms that it's supposed to happen. Successive UK Governments, both red and blue, have shown little hesitation in interfering in devolved areas. Lines that we thought existed clearly mean absolutely nothing. They're now being crossed with increasingly casual regularity, while the use of unilateral Henry VIII powers have become completely normalised.

And let's not forget, as well—I think this is something that all Members are forgetting in this Chamber right now—there's a very real prospect that, coming down the line after the next general election, we'll have an even more anti-devolution party taking the reins in number 10. So, this is something we need to take seriously. That is why we need to look at this situation and take what is said in this memo with the utmost seriousness. We owe it to the people of Wales, who brought this place into being through two referenda, to make a decisive stand right now before it's too late.

After the next election, this Senedd will finally come of age, as the foundations of our democracy are upgraded to reflect the needs of a modern and mature democracy, and, with this change, the case for placing our constitutional relationship on a clearly defined statutory footing becomes increasingly compelling, as was set out by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. It's a view that I know that the Member for Pontypridd shares, and I'm sure the other 10 Labour MSs who rightly called out the shameful undermining of devolution by their Westminster colleagues would also, hopefully, reach a similar conclusion to him. At the end of 2024, that's what motivated Plaid Cymru when we called for the UK Government to introduce a new Wales Bill. This would have not only addressed the asymmetry of devolution across these isles by providing the Senedd with parity of powers with Scotland, it would have also established robust legal safeguards against Westminster overreach.

Now, unfortunately, in a sign of things to come—we didn't quite realise it at the time—Labour Members neglected that opportunity to support that call, voting en masse for an amendment more palatable to their London bosses. But, with a direct threat to this place posed by this UK Labour Government now spelled out in black and white, it couldn't be clearer. I sincerely hope they now realise the error of their ways and recognise the need to substitute deference for defiance. Otherwise, the implication of the memo will provide and prove to be just the tip of the iceberg.

And for the Welsh Government, and for the First Minister in particular, that memo should act as a timely wake-up call for them to re-evaluate their attitudes towards their so-called partners in power. And I'll do the job of the Tories for them. Every one of us here knows exactly what the reaction would have been had this been a Tory Prime Minister issuing that memo. We would have had outrage from the Labour benches. We would have had press releases written. We'd have had strong words in the Chamber, letters penned, and denouncements from each and every Cabinet Secretary and Minister in Government. But what have we actually had from the Government? We've had silence and we've had excuses. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim to be a champion of devolution and still profess unquestioned loyalty to Keir Starmer as some kind of friend of Wales, and the sooner you realise that, the better.

I'll be supporting amendment 1 because that is about the world as it is, rather than the world as some Members would like it to be. We live in a ridiculously over-centralised state where wealth and opportunity is far too closely concentrated in the south of England, mainly the south-east of England, or the Oxford and Cambridge growth corridor, or other versions of it, particularly where decisions are dominated by the Treasury, which determines where investment is best made in areas that deliver the best return on investment. We have to get beyond that and start to look at how we distribute wealth across our country.

Yesterday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a speech at a London university, and one newspaper reported she'd said that England's mayors would get a share of national tax revenues, and another that English cities would get more power over their own finances. So, I rushed to look at what she actually said and whether it included a better share of the jagged edge of economic development for Wales. She didn't make any mention at all about devolving money or powers to English mayors in her actual speech. That must have been in the Q&A that took place afterwards. But she is quoted as saying in the Financial Times, and therefore I think it's accurate,

'Reforms will be fiscally neutral, focused on sharing and retaining a portion of existing revenues, with the proceeds of growth benefiting the places that generated that growth'.

I dwell on the word 'portion', but also it tells us that them that have will get more, and them that don't have won't get anything. So, where does that leave our communities, and others, that are still blighted by the ravages of Thatcherism or deindustrialisation without building the conditions for prosperity for all? So, a serious regional strategy cannot be about redistribution alone. It also has to be about capacity building, as a recent article in a think tank—I think it's called 'spatial economic opportunity'—has these maps that clearly show that all the wealth is concentrated in the south of England, a little bit more over the west side of England, but, basically, Wales and the north-east of England get very little at all. And these are the areas that, obviously, have been devastated by all this deindustrialisation. So, what they talk about is the need for capacity building, which means that the money also enables people to generate the local innovation that they want. They talk about Britain not just facing a choice between excellence and equity, but between continuing to subsidise concentration of resources, whether it's in Cardiff or whether it's in the south-east of England. But we have to make innovation policy genuinely national. And so the question we have to ask ourselves is: who is going to pay for the self-inflicted chaos created by Netanyahu and Trump, which is plunging the world into a global economic crisis, which is only just beginning? Unfortunately, the next Welsh Government is going to have to face an incredibly challenging situation.

So, I turn now to Fiona Hill, who was the former Russia adviser to Trump, who originally came from the former coal community of Bishop Auckland, whose book, There is Nothing for You Here, encapsulates the advice given to her by her father once the coal fields closed. She talks about the austerity of opportunity and how Governments across the world have to invest in the infrastructure of opportunity to stop people who manage to do well, educationally, simply leaving their communities and not enabling those communities to thrive. This is something that Jeremy Seabrook, when I was at university, talked a lot about. He's sadly no longer with us. But she also, importantly, says we have to redefine post-industrial communities across the world and also kill the fascism in its tracks by stopping the hopelessness that fuels it. So, we need national programmes and Government action and accountability to move down from the top—

You need to conclude now, please, Jenny.

—to the ground into small towns and neighbourhoods, so that people need to see reflections of their ambitions reflected in the people at the top. And we have to, therefore, invest in people where they live, whether it's in Blaenau Gwent or in Adamsdown or anywhere where people are struggling the most. And at the moment—

Conclude now, please.

—that is not what we have.

What is the purpose of this place, this Senedd? This debate may have been prompted by a leaked memo from the current Prime Minister's desk, but this is just the latest spark from a fire that has been smouldering for long years past. Since its very inception, this Senedd has had to grapple with gripes about its own legitimacy. Like our language, the battle for our democracy has been hard fought.

Despite the words of Gerallt, the noise led to a Senedd. And as Waldo said, there was jubilation after silence. But what was gained then is now at stake. For some, the battle is not fully won.

We know voices exist in our politics that seek to denigrate and belittle this Senedd. But who knew the Prime Minister was one of them? It's now many months since nearly every Welsh Labour backbencher in this place lent their names to a letter to Keir Starmer, the UK leader of their party, demanding that he respect the confines of our devolution settlement, that he recognise the functions of this Senedd and the reality of devolved governance in these islands. No formal answer ever came, as though that letter fell into a void, until this memo was leaked, making clear Keir Starmer's stance that devolution was a hindrance to be dodged when necessary, and the elected representatives of Wales's people voices that could be silenced. For Keir Starmer, the Welsh, like the Scots, are outside his vision. What this Senedd says, he can ignore. That clearly is his viewpoint. The leaked memo has made that clear. Like Boris Johnson before him, Keir Starmer's sense of democracy comes with caveats: 'The Welsh don't carry the same clout. Ignore them, if need be.' That's what he's told Cabinet colleagues: 'Let the Senedd fall as silent. The Welsh should know their place.'

Thus Wales's story has ever been to Westminster—the people on the periphery. Our story, that has led us through trial and Tryweryn, through times of picket lines and poisoned lungs, starved miners and slag heaps. Oh, the people of this nation know how Westminster has failed them, all right. Our communities still bear the scars, and this insult is but the latest chapter. What comes next is up to us. Will we allow Westminster to so discount our democracy, to carve up our powers and overrule the choices we might make, or do we want a Senedd that will stand up for the powers we hold?

This Senedd was not a gift given to us by the goodness of Westminster. It is the property of our people, their voice. Hard won after all the silenced centuries—a voice we must use, else it be lost. One Member has said that we have to accept the world as it is, but what about the Wales we wish to be? Today's vote in the dying days of this Senedd gives us a chance to send a united message to London that our voices will be heard. My fellow Members, I ask you, will you stand with Wales and protest this power grab, grubby and brazen? I ask on behalf of a nation.

I would like to say it has been a huge relief to have funding back into public services over the last 20 months under the UK Labour Government. Ninety per cent of Welsh Government spend is on public services, and there has been an increase to borrowing under the new UK Labour Government. Money has gone to the NHS to build and invest in new medical facilities, to reduce waiting lists, to fund highway infrastructure that has been neglected for far too long.

Another difference is that the funding announced for people using oil to heat their homes is coming to Wales via population of need, not the Barnett formula. Consequential funding for public pay sector rises for additional learning needs is given under the new UK Labour Government. I remember in the past that, often, funding was found down the back of the sofas and within departments, so we didn't get any consequentials. There has been change.

I must say, I will fight with you as well for funding, but we don't always get what we want, whether it's a child asking a parent, or an employee asking their employer for a pay rise or for more flexibility. As a backbencher to a Government, even though I'm in the same group, we all lobby. We have to make the case, but it's better to be lobbying from inside that camp than outside, with open dialogue.

Network north Wales is now being delivered cross-Government using funding from the spending review, from grants, working together with the rail board that's been set up, cross-Government, drawing down expertise using the pipeline set in Transport for Wales's 'Today, Tomorrow, Together' plan. It's so much better now than when we used to get the levelling-up funding bids rejected and then projects pulled out of thin air.

Welsh Governments have lobbied regarding fairer funding and the removal of the two-child benefit cap. Having a UK Government that cares about welfare and public funding is making a huge difference, and that would not have happened before.

Wales is receiving more than £0.5 billion of post-EU structural funding in the local growth fund. It's a major investment in the communities, and, again, it's coming back through Welsh Government so that some national and regional schemes can be funded again. And that will be worked through with local government, public services, businesses, charities, further and higher education—they will be at the heart of shaping this programme. The £5 billion—[Interruption.] Yes, Mabon.

So, while you're listing some of the funding that we're receiving in Wales, do you accept the funding we're receiving now from the UK Government is less than what we received under Sunak and under Europe, so it's declining funding that we're receiving? We're receiving less capital funds from the UK Government and now we're being told that the UK Government is willing to run roughshod over decisions made here. Is that acceptable?

I won't accept that. It's money that's been pushed for. It's not coming through the Barnett formula either, it's coming through a different formula, where Wales actually receives more than Scotland under this new formula. And that's been fought for by our First Minister, working with the UK Government.

There's also the Pride in Place funding, albeit that it's carried on through the MPs, as was set up under the Conservatives. But I know that in my area of Denbighshire, it's going to what the community want—it's going to keep public toilets open, which is really important. Although we want change, and we fight for it, and I signed that letter, what matters at the end of the day, which I'm really pleased about, is that public services and the toilets are being kept open—that's what matters to the residents that we serve.

It would be great, as Jenny—. I want to reflect on what Jenny just said about funding back into our communities. I'd like to say, during the Attlee Government, we had massive council house building programmes—230,000 council houses were built. The NHS was set up, and national parks—getting people out there walking and healthy. It would be great to see that real investment back into public services again.

As someone who's been in local government, it's been a difficult 14 years, and I've mentioned austerity every week here, but there has been a difference now. I can see the difference that the UK Labour Government has made, working with the Welsh Government, getting that investment back into public services. Thank you.

The memo leaked last week makes clear that Keir Starmer has briefed his Ministers on, and expects his Ministers to use, powers conferred on them by the UK internal market Act. This is a piece of legislation that rolls back devolution, was opposed by all devolved Governments, and was passed without this place's consent. On top of that, the Prime Minister expects his Ministers to ignore devolved Governments when they take issue with this.

Now, I think the Prif Weinidog has been rather generous in her interpretation of the memo. The Prif Weinidog has insisted that Keir Starmer was only talking about, and I quote,

'issues reserved to the responsibilities of the UK Government.'

Going on to say:

'Pensions, benefits, home affairs, immigration, foreign affairs, those kinds of areas'.

I say 'rather generous', because that is not what Keir Starmer has said in response to the leak, and that is certainly not my interpretation of the memo. Let me quote the memo.

'Guidance has been shared with officials across Government on UK-wide policy making, and on using the Financial Assistance Power'.

Now, what is the financial assistance power? Well, it's part of the UK internal market Act. And this is what it says: UK Government Ministers may provide for economic development, infrastructure, culture and education anywhere in the UK. The Act makes clear that infrastructure includes transport, health, education, cultural and sporting facilities, and housing. These are areas that go totally to the heart of the devolution settlement. And that is the power that the UK Government Ministers have been briefed on using. The majority of what the financial assistance power covers is already devolved to Wales. And the rest? Well, the UK Government has power over it already. So, why brief on using it? Why warn devolved Governments may oppose it? It makes no logical sense at all if it really was the intention of Keir Starmer for it to do with pensions, benefits, home affairs, immigration, foreign affairs—those kinds of areas. That is just not the correct interpretation.

The official position of this Welsh Government, as well as the Scottish Government, is that the UK internal market Act should be repealed. The memo makes clear that the unofficial position of the UK Government is that they should use the powers of the internal market Act. And don't worry if devolved Governments don't like what you're doing—just ignore them. Quite different from what we were promised before the general election about two Labour Governments working together in partnership. The Plaid proposal asks for our leaders to be listened to when they stand up for Wales. Paul Davies gave a very impressive party political broadcast for the Labour Party in Westminster by saying how brilliant the Labour Party in Westminster was. Well done. Well done, Paul.

The Welsh Government amendment, on the other hand, concedes almost all of the ground whilst ignoring—and most of the contributions today have ignored—the larger issues at play. It only suggests UK Government should respect the devolution settlement and the laws pertaining to reserved and devolved powers. Apart from this, the fact is that it ignores issues where the Welsh Government has insights that should be listened to on reserved matters affecting Wales, and the suggestion is largely irrelevant when the UK Government drafts a law, and, in the case of the UK internal market Act powers, changes the laws affecting the devolution settlement without the consent of devolved Governments. The law can change and has changed. Will the Welsh Labour position always be, 'Well, we'll obey the law and the devolution settlement, whatever it may be, however the UK Government may forcibly change it'? [Interruption.] I would be—. If you want to intervene, Mike, please intervene. I would be interested to hear a direct statement from the Welsh Government over whether they oppose the UK Government Ministers' use of the financial assistance powers, given that they want the legislation that it forms part of to be repealed.

In response to the leaked memo, John Swinney, the First Minister of Scotland, said, 'Labour is a threat to devolution'. Well, I disagree with John Swinney. That is not true of most Labour Members of this place. That was shown in the letter to Keir Starmer last year. But it is true about Labour in Westminster, from the parliamentary Labour Party upwards—certainly for the vast majority of them. I am sure that the Prif Weinidog does not hold back in her conversations with Keir Starmer. It is time for us to hear more of that, rather than a weak defence that does not stand up to objective consideration. Diolch yn fawr.

At its heart—[Interruption.]

We won't have conversations across the Chamber. There is a Member about to start his contribution.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. At its heart, this motion is simple. It does not ask for special treatment, it does not ask for privilege; it asks for respect—respect for this Senedd, respect for the people of Wales, and respect for the principle that decisions about Wales should not be imposed on Wales against our will.

Because what we are debating today is principle, a principle that goes to the very foundation of devolution, that, when powers are devolved, they are not conditional, they are not optional and they are not there to be overridden when it suits a Government in Westminster. And yet that is exactly what is happening. For example, the UK Government's Pride in Place programme is presented as empowerment, but, in reality, it's an assertion of control. It is a mechanism by which decisions in fully devolved areas, like town regeneration, are taken out of Welsh hands and placed back into Whitehall—not with consent, not with agreement, but in direct opposition to the Welsh Government.

Now, let us pause there, because, if that becomes the norm, if the UK Government can simply decide to spend money in devolved areas against the clear expressed will of an elected Government of Wales, then what exactly is the value of devolution? What is the purpose of this Senedd? And what message does that send to the people who sent us here? Because this is not theoretical. We see the consequences already: funding models that leave Wales worse off; broken promises of not a penny worse off after Brexit, yet £4 billion lost to our economy—£3,000 per household. We see programmes replacing EU funding that fall short by over £1 billion. And now we see further cuts, a 13 per cent reduction to funds that our communities rely on, in part to bankroll a scheme that bypasses this Senedd entirely. And so, we must call this what it is—not partnership but overreach, not co-operation but contradiction, because you cannot claim to respect devolution while actively working around it. You cannot speak of partnership when ignoring the elected voice of Wales. You cannot claim to empower communities while denying their national parliament a say in how their future is shaped.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this motion speaks to a basic democratic standard: that when the Welsh Government, accountable to this Senedd, opposes a course of action that position must carry weight. It must mean something, because otherwise devolution becomes decorative, a layer of constitution without consequence. And let us be clear: this is not how devolution operates elsewhere. In Northern Ireland, the Executive is trusted with full discretion over how funding is spent—full control, full respect. So, again, the question arises: why not in Wales? Because what we are seeing is a pattern, a pattern where Wales is too often an exception, but never in our favour, where decisions are centralised, where powers are bypassed, where our institutions are sidestepped, and where the response from those who should defend Wales has too often been muted. 

This motion draws a line. It says if a policy is opposed by the Welsh Government, if it cuts across devolved responsibilities, if it undermines the authority of this Senedd, then it should not proceed—not here, not in Wales. Because devolution was not granted to be managed from afar. It was not created to be overridden when inconvenient. It was established that the people of Wales could shape their own future through this institution, through their elected representatives and through decisions made in Wales.

So, today, this is about whether we defend the integrity of the Senedd, whether we uphold the principle of democratic consent, and whether we are prepared to say, clearly and confidently, that Wales will not accept decisions imposed upon it in defiance of its own Government. I urge Members across this Chamber to stand up for devolution, stand up for democratic accountability and stand up for Wales: support the motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Do you know, I think the last thing that the people we all try to represent require at the moment is a tiresome and tedious, and ultimately sterile, debate between muscular unionism and independence? I suspect they want us to do a little bit better than that.

I want to address, right at the beginning of my remarks this evening, a point made by Paul Davies in his contribution. Paul decried what he called constitutional wrangling. Let me say this to Paul: I think the politics of power are fundamental to why any one of us should be sitting in this place. The first chapter that Aneurin Bevan wrote in In Place of Fear was about his search for the root of political power. For any of us who seek to change the societies in which we live, the ability to find and to use political power is fundamental. And I don't think, on whatever side of the debate we sit upon, we should ever decry or dismiss the politics of political power, because it is fundamental to whatever sort of society we wish to create.

But it's clear to me that the current UK financial framework is no longer fit for purpose. We've heard, and all of us—I think almost all of us, certainly in the Chamber here—have spoken about HS2, and the real scandal that Wales has not received the consequentials of that. But, of course, it was equally true during the London Olympics, when a similar decision was taken, and Wales didn't receive consequentials for that. The reason for that is because, at the end of the day, the Treasury is able to take these decisions without reference either to this place—without reference to the House of Commons either, mind you—or any other of our democratic institutions. So, we do need a very different structure, with democratic accountability for the sorts of decisions that are taken in and across the United Kingdom.

For me, the starting point is very simple. I think this country should be treated as an equal part of the United Kingdom, an equal nation within Britain, with the same rights, responsibilities, powers and resources and funds as other parts of the United Kingdom—as England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. And yet we know that is not true today. When the Northern Irish negotiated for a needs-based formula, the UK Government provided a needs-based formula. When Welsh Ministers say, 'We need a needs-based formula', they are ignored, and they're ignored whatever party is in control in Westminster. And that we need to say—and particularly people who sit in Unionist parties have to say—is unacceptable. It is unacceptable that my constituents within the United Kingdom are treated differently to constituents elsewhere simply because of where they live, and it is unacceptable that the powers available to this Government to invest either in our public services or our infrastructure do not have the same either flexibility or the same funding as other parts of the United Kingdom. And whilst I support and I welcome the decisions announced by the First Minister on rail in recent weeks and months, Wales remains the only nation in the United Kingdom without the powers to create its own integrated transport system. Surely that is unacceptable. Surely that is unacceptable. These are powers that are held by most cities on the European mainland, and we need to be able to say that. 

We also need to say very, very clearly, and I pay tribute to the former Counsel General, the Member for Neath, who was very, very clear—that woke him up—that UKIMA was unacceptable. But what I have to say to the Deputy First Minister, who's replying to this debate, I understand, is that, if that piece of legislation was unacceptable when it was enacted by the Conservatives, it's equally unacceptable when it is used by a Labour Government. We have to say that and we have to be clear, because, for me, standing up for the people of Wales and standing up for the people of Blaenau Gwent, and, hopefully, Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni in the next Senedd, is why I'm here. We have to say that and we have to be clear.

Let me conclude by saying this: I well remember that the First Minister invited Elystan Morgan to speak at a Labour Party conference in Llandudno some years ago—just before we lost him, in fact. He spoke, and the First Minister will remember his speeches; they were really, really powerful speeches. And I remember one thing he said, that perhaps the time of devolution was passing, that perhaps the time of devolved Government, power devolved, power retained, is passing, and perhaps what we need now is to look for a new settlement. The First Minister will remember that he suggested dominion status for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. But, of course, dominion status was granted by the Statute of Westminster in 1931, and it might well be that what we need is a new constitutional settlement—my friend the Member for Pontypridd has already said this. Perhaps we do need today a new statute of Westminster that guarantees and underpins equality for everybody in the United Kingdom— 

And on that point, Alun, you're going to conclude.

—and all the nations of the United Kingdom, Deputy First Minister.

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I start my response to today's debate by stating clearly that decisions about how to spend money in devolved areas of responsibility should be made in Wales by the Welsh Government and this Parliament.

Let me just be clear, in responding to this debate: defiance or deference are not the only options. Co-operation, respect and collaboration for real improvements to people's lives in Wales is a far better alternative. And let me be crystal clear: we have always been clear and adamant that the UK internal market Act's financial assistance powers—a consequence, by the way, of Brexit, enacted by the previous Conservative regime, which allows the UK Government to spend directly in devolved areas of responsibility—are not needed and should be abolished. What is not clear about that? It's crystal clear—crystal clear. They are wholly unnecessary for the operation of the internal market. It is for Welsh Ministers and the Senedd to make decisions about devolved responsibilities that reflect the priorities, the needs and the circumstances of our nation here in Wales.

Now, there has, historically, been consensus across the Senedd on this fundamental point. And, by the way, I'm responding to the debate today because the finance Secretary, my colleague, is in Belfast at a meeting of the UK finance Ministers, where they will be discussing, amongst other things, the use of these powers. He and the other devolved Governments will continue to argue these points with the UK Government. 

Now, if the UK Government insists that it must retain the UK internal market Act's financial assistance powers, then they must only—and we have been clear on this—only ever be used in exceptional circumstances and only with the Welsh Government's consent. We believe that arrangements for the use of these powers should be set out in an inter-governmental agreement, if we're not willing to get rid of them, which reflects our constitutional arrangements, and ensures that the devolution settlement and the role of this Senedd are recognised and respected.

This agreement should be aligned with the inter-governmental relations principle of mutual respect. This would provide the framework to ensure that the use of these powers is transparent and subject to consent mechanisms and meaningful engagement. This is something that we and the other devolved Governments agree on, and we are clear that devolution must be respected. And I have to say that this would be in line with other well-established collaborative mechanisms, which the UK Government can use to support investment in Wales, and by the way, which respect devolution and maximise the outcomes for the people in Wales. This includes, for example, city and growth deals; free ports, shaped, by the way, by my colleagues within Welsh Government, as they're brought forward; investment zones and, indeed, our economic inactivity trailblazer programme.

So, the Welsh Government has worked and will continue to work successfully and collaboratively with the UK Government through these arrangements to enable funding to flow into Wales for specific purposes and with the joint consent of the UK and Welsh Governments. I will give way.

Thanks, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog. You talk about respect from the UK Government, but the memo says, if I can find it:

'However, an overly deferential or laissez-faire approach to devolved government engagement almost inevitably creates political challenges or misses positive opportunities. We should be confident in our ability to deliver directly in those nations, including through direct spending, even when devolved governments may oppose this.'

Does that sound like respect?

I'll come to the memo in a moment, directly. But let me just say that one of the things we've not heard from Plaid Cymru today is where the collaboration and consensus really work, where we have proven examples of where these work. For example, when we had the investment in the Holyhead breakwater, that was an agreement with Welsh and UK Governments; where we've had the economic inactivity trailblazers, working in collaboration between devolved and reserved functions; where we have had, only this week, the announcement by UK Government of fuel support funding—they could have chosen to bypass us entirely, they did not; they chose to actually passport that money to us, so that we could make it work in Wales in the best way in Wales.

The Welsh Government will continue to work with the UK Government to make this work, but let's be clear, we are crystal clear that Whitehall departments should not be unilaterally setting objectives for the delivery of programmes in Wales, or directing funding to organisations within Wales in any area of devolved responsibility, because doing so, Dirprwy Lywydd, creates a confusing landscape for organisations, and it can risk duplicating or putting funding in direct conflict with devolved investment. It simply does not represent good value for the public purse.

Let me turn to the memo, because we've heard much today about the infamous memo. The First Minister, I suspect, is the only one who's spoken directly to the Prime Minister about this, and the Prime Minister has clarified that this is about spending in reserved areas, not devolved areas. The UK Government has made clear that it wants a respectful working relationship with Wales. It wants to maximise spending in Wales in reserved areas. Do you know, we welcome that? We can have no quarrel with that. We want the investment in those areas. It's actually, Dirprwy Lywydd, the mirror image of the position that we take on spending in devolved areas. Just as we must retain responsibility for decisions on matters that are devolved to the Senedd, so the UK Government retains responsibilities for decisions on reserved matters, and I'll come to some of those in a moment. Where those responsibilities touch on one another, we should always seek to proceed on the basis of agreement, but there will be rare occasions. On those rare occasions where agreement cannot be reached, then we believe the devolved decisions must be made in Wales and reserved responsibilities must be retained by the UK Government, and Plaid Cymru's motion seems to miss the fundamental constitutional and democratic point. That's how the constitution and devolution and government work, and for very good reason. But we are, of course, doing all we can with the levers and the funding available to us.

But Wales needs and Wales darn well deserves the extra spending power that the UK Government can bring. Now, at long last, we have a Government ready and willing to invest in jobs and prosperity in Wales in areas of reserved responsibility that have been overlooked for far too long. We have increased financial stability for the UK and Wales after 14 years—and we cannot get away from it—of austerity from the last Government, which played fast and loose with the public finances. Since the election of the UK Labour Government, we've secured significant additional funding for Wales. Our settlement here in Wales now over the next three years is nearly £6 billion higher than it would have been under the spending plans set out by the previous UK Government in March 2024.

The UK Government has developed now a progressive package of measures supporting those who need it most. People listening to this debate will want to understand how that money is going to improve their lives, putting money in people's pockets, benefiting people across Wales. So, we have seen increases in the minimum wage and the national living wage, increases in the state pension, support with energy bills that we are able to shape here in Wales, scrapping the two-child limit, lifting thousands of children out of poverty. And there's more: the two AI growth zones, the £14 billion rail investment in infrastructure, a £50 million defence growth deal, new nuclear investment at Wylfa. Are we going to throw those back in the face of the UK Government? I think not.

This is the result of two Governments working together to build a strong and secure economy, making a real and tangible difference to the lives of people and families. And this is a welcome change—. Dirprwy Lywydd, my apologies, I know I took an intervention.

And I've given you the time for that, so it's time to conclude.

It is such a welcome change from the previous Government, who short-changed Wales on post-European funding following Brexit to the tune of £1 billion, despite telling the people of Wales they would not be a penny worse off. So, we are working with the UK Government to put this right—

You need to conclude now.

I am drawing my remarks to a close, Dirprwy Lywydd, by repeating that the fundamental principle of devolution is that decisions should be made as close as possible to the people impacted by those decisions, and that this Senedd has a constitutional role in scrutinising those decisions. We must respect our devolution settlement. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on Adam Price to reply to the debate.

I want to begin by thanking every Member who has spoken. I'd like to start by responding directly to the Deputy First Minister, if I may, because he has inspired me to respond in these terms. How many times have people in this Chamber made the case for Wales to get its fair share of UK Government spending? Because serially, in many of the areas that we've heard referred to, from rail to research and development, innovation, the key drivers of economic success, we have never had our fair share under Labour Governments or Conservative Governments. It's no surprise then that Wales is where we are in the economic league table.

So, let's be clear about what we're talking about. We want the UK Government in the areas that it is responsible for to do what no UK Government has ever done and spend at the level that our need requires. What we don't want to see is an intervention in our democratic system that undermines our own ability in the areas that we are responsible for to deliver.

I listened carefully to Paul Davies. I was going to hope—. Maybe it was too close to an election, but I was hoping there was going to be more common ground around the Chamber, but, sadly, that did not transpire. Of course, I realise that Conservatives will speak from an unionist standpoint. Two Governments working together can be a strength, absolutely, but only if both Governments are treated as Governments, not one as the senior partner and the other as a consultee or even a child to be ignored and neglected. What Paul Davies described as collaboration too often means that Wales is expected to nod along while Westminster defines the mission, controls the money and claims the credit. That's not a partnership of equals; it's hierarchy dressed up as harmony, and if Welsh Conservatives cannot tell the difference, it's because, when the choice is between Wales having a voice and Westminster having the final say, it seems as if you will choose Westminster every time.

I have to say to Jenny Rathbone that I understand that you were making the case that the amendment reflects the constitutional world as it is. I think that it doesn't reflect the lived reality at the moment in Wales, and that's why the amendment is not enough for a very specific reason, because the amendment assumes that constitutional overreach arrives neatly labelled, with a rosette almost, 'This is devolved, hands off.' That's not how it's working now. As Rhys ab Owen pointed out, with the instrument of section 50 of the internal market Act, Welsh democracy in 2026 is now facing a situation where the threat doesn't come through the front door with a name badge on, it comes through overlap, through ambiguity, through missions and mandates drawn so broadly that they reach into every corner of Welsh public life, even when they claim not to touch them. And that's the pattern that we're seeing, isn't it? Mission creep, effectively, in constitutional terms, and that's the problem that the amendment doesn't solve and the original motion does.

What we are arguing for, I think, is something pretty fundamental to the future health of our democracy, that the UK Government must not use its spending power to bypass Welsh democratic choice in areas that are devolved legislatively, functionally, inseparable from devolved responsibilities, because this is the constitutional asymmetry that runs through this entire debate, really. When we ask for power from Westminster, every caution, every reason to refuse is found; every caution is discovered; every boundary becomes rigid; every argument for restraint is deployed. But when Westminster decides it wants to intervene, the language changes entirely, doesn't it? Then it's growth, it's infrastructure, it's national mission. 'How could you possibly disagree with that?' The scope broadens, the limits blur, and the result is always the same: power is treated as narrow when we seek it, and wide when Westminster wants to wield it. And that's not partnership; that's a ratchet, and it only moves one way, and that's exactly what the leaked memorandum confirmed in black and white, just like section 50 of the internal market Act. 

It's not an aberration; it's a doctrine. It's a world view that unfortunately puts us at the bottom of the pile. And when Ministers are told to be confident in delivering directly in Wales, even where devolved Governments oppose it, we're no longer in the territory of co-operation; we're in the territory of diktat, of permissionless intervention. And devolution cannot mean that Wales is consulted, surely, after decisions are taken; it cannot mean that Welsh Ministers may protest, but Whitehall may proceed. It cannot mean that this Senedd exists to ratify what has already been settled elsewhere. Otherwise, how can we actually achieve our principal purpose? If that's all it amounts to, then what we have is not self-government, it's administration on sufferance. The amendment recognises the rule as it is and the constitutional map as Westminster would like to imagine it. Our motion addresses the reality and the political imperative, which is that the rule as was is being stretched; it's being blurred; it's being worked around, and not in our favour.

So, the question before us tonight, we think, is not complicated. Do we affirm, as a Senedd, that Wales has the right to set its own priorities through its own democratic institutions, not only in theory, but in the world as it actually is? Or do we settle for the amendment where devolution is honoured, maybe, in the letter—though not in that particular letter—but hollowed out in practice? For us in Plaid Cymru, this isn't an abstract question: when Welsh priorities are displaced by Westminster priorities, it's the people who lose, not Governments. They are communities. This damage is not symbolic; it's felt in how places are regenerated or not, how money is directed, how their voice counts. Standing up for Wales is not a slogan for us; it's the reason we're here. We urge Members to support the original motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting.

This evening we will only be voting on item 11, the Plaid Cymru debate, UK Government spending in Wales. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If the motion is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 36 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, and 24 against, and therefore amendment 1 is not agreed. 

As the Senedd has not agreed the motion without amendment, and has not agreed the amendment tabled to the motion, the motion is not agreed. Thank you.

We will now move to the short debate, and I call on Hannah Blythyn.

It’s a privilege to serve the community that shaped me here in the Senedd. I sometimes find it hard to believe that I first stood to be elected a decade ago. At that point, I could actually be classed as being young, and I now know that I was actually lucky enough to look younger than I was. But with that came the need to challenge people's perceptions. Firstly, that I did have the experience to do what I was asking people to elect me to do, but, more than that, on their view of who and what a politician was like. I remember conversation after conversation where people said I wasn't what they were expecting in a politician, and when I asked in return how they expected a politician to be or behave, the response was sadly largely negative.

These early experiences have always stayed with me, and that desire for a different kind of politics has always driven me. 'They’re all the same' is one of the most common complaints about politicians, with the implication that we’re just in it for ourselves and don't care or are out of touch with ordinary people. In this context, 'same' is taken to mean 'equally bad', not 'good', it breeds a cynicism in politics, is bad for democracy, it creates distrust in politicians and the ability of politics to make a difference, and it allows divisive actors to thrive in our communities and in our country. Extremism flourishes where faith in democracy is diminished.

So how do we counter this? To be clear, Dirprwy Lywydd, I am by no means suggesting that I have all the answers to what is, to some extent, an existential problem, but I do believe each and every one of us has an individual duty and collective responsibility to play our part in shifting this perception. Central to this is trust and transparency at both an individual and institutional level, coupled with wider cultural change. As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I’ve been part of work intended to do just that, including on recall, the strengthening of our existing code of conduct, and the committee's latest report making recommendations on the need for greater independence and support in tackling bullying and harassment.

Everyone has the right to feel safe and secure at work. That absolutely should be the case for our devolved democracy and all who come into contact with those who have been elected to serve here. In any institution or walk of life, it's not easy to come forward to raise concerns about bullying and harassment. But power imbalances are amplified in a political setting. There should be, and can be, zero tolerance to sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour. That means having both support and sanctions in place, the introduction of a semi-independent guardian-type role, a helpline, the use of independent expertise in cases of sexual harassment and bullying, introducing trauma-informed support, a risk-based exclusion policy, ongoing training and more.

Personally, I believe more needs to be done in terms of appropriate pastoral support. At the moment, it is usual for the role of pastoral care to fall to chief whips, yet they are also responsible for party discipline. There is, at best, an inherent contradiction in this. In cases of complaints about or on the conduct of Members, I'm not sure this works well or is in the interests of any individual involved. There should instead be dedicated pastoral support distinct from the role of chief whip.

I believe we also need to take a clearer position on how the political parties' disciplinary and complaints processes work alongside the Senedd system. If a complaint relates to a Member, should the Senedd process take precedence? I tend to think that concurrent processes allow for a greater risk of a case becoming politicised, not only undermining the outcome, but confidence in the process as a whole.

In all of this work, I have tried to see it from someone else's perspective, to put myself in the shoes of, say, a young staffer in the Senedd today. I'm lucky enough to have a degree of power and privilege now, and it is my duty to use my platform for a purpose. But I was once a young staffer, over 20 years ago, in Westminster, and looking back, I realise that I experienced what would have been inappropriate behaviour within a workplace repeatedly.

So, I asked myself, if I was still that young woman, what would make me feel more comfortable and confident in coming forward? A system where I was taken seriously, concerns handled sensitively, and where I could voice initial concerns in confidence. To be able to be supported and speak to someone who has an understanding, the appropriate expertise, and could even put themselves in my shoes when I was sharing something that could be deeply distressing. That's what I hope our committee has gone some way to be doing in its recent recommendations, but it should not stop there. I very much implore the seventh Senedd to not take its foot off the gas on this and to continue to give it the priority I believe it warrants.

What does not show any sign of slowing down is the influence of social media platforms, online abuse, and the impact of AI, with all the implications that brings for politics and politicians. Members should rightly be held to a higher standard when it comes to our conduct online, as we should be offline. We are responsible and accountable for anything posted or shared in our name. But the online abuse, particularly of women politicians, is endemic and widespread.

I will just offer a little snapshot, looking back on some of my posts and some comments on there. I dared to post about LGBT History Month last month, and was told in response that homosexuality is the work of Satan. I'm not going to repeat some of the things on there, but there was something else like, 'a whole lot of rug munching' going on as well. And on an innocuous post about delivering a newsletter, somebody told me to go and make my husband a cup of tea.

But disagreeing with someone politically can be done without being horrible and hurling abuse. The pilot currently being undertaken by the Senedd to monitor and identify threatening and abusive language is welcome, but action is needed outside this place to make it harder to spout hate in the first place. It is far too easy to hate and hide online. People and platforms need to be held more to account. Let's be clear, this is not about the so-called cancel culture. It's about basic standards of human decency and our behaviour towards one another.

We can ensure standards and sanctions are in place in terms of Members and misinformation. In fact, just this week we have made changes to the code of conduct and agreed new legislation on this. Further action could also be taken at a domestic level to control political advertising online. There are currently strict rules in the run-up to an election in regard to traditional campaigning and our leaflets, but a vacuum when it comes to the online space. Political campaigning has changed, therefore the rules around how it is governed need to change too. But more widely, misinformation and deepfakes are a growing global problem that needs collective and bold action, legislation, regulation and consequence.

AI has the potential to augment our Parliament, but we need clear guardrails and guidelines when it comes to its use in the Senedd and by Senedd Members, and we should be upfront and open about its application. Should we have to make clear when AI is used in a public-facing manner and our interactions with the public? Where do we draw the line—MS chatbots to cover advice surgeries, or contribute in committee? The latter points might sound somewhat extreme, but we are only just updating our code of conduct to explicitly reference social media. It would be foolhardy and risk further eroding trust if we were to sleepwalk into the advance of technology.

Dirprwy Lywydd, if you take a tour of this building, you will likely learn that the widespread use of glass on the building itself is symbolic to represent a transparent parliament. But are we transparent enough? What else is within our own gift to improve upon? I suggest a couple of things as a starting point. A cap and greater guidance on the amount and the nature of individual donations, action to address the fact that we are currently a legislative outlier in not having a lobbying register or some form of regulation, and continue to find innovative ways to involve and engage more people with what we do here.

Transparency and trust in our processes, our politicians and our politics go hand in hand. We all have our own part to play in rewriting that negative narrative, in our own conduct and the choices we make. To not deliberately do down this place and politics as a whole. But I would caution that we can't ever let concern of criticism lend itself to us not being able to learn lessons when and where needed. There should be neither fear nor favour in this respect. This institution should never avoid constructive challenge, change and transparency out of concern of negative press. That does not protect the reputation of the Senedd, it does the opposite. It does not serve to defend our democracy, it does a disservice to it.

I'll finish where I began. Growing up, I never thought I would be a politician. A politician didn't seem to me to be someone like me. They didn't look like me, talk like me or come from the same place as me. There was a stereotype of the image of a politician, as there is with politics itself. Visibility is important, alongside the responsibility to challenge and change. A political approach based on graft, not built on grandstanding. Because, like devolution itself, strengthening our Senedd is a process, not an event, and one we should not and cannot shy away from. Diolch.

Thank you, Hannah, for bringing forward this debate today. It's a very timely debate, because, as we head to the next Senedd election, we, as politicians, actually have a unique ability to be able to do something that lots of other jobs and lots of other professions are unable to do, which is to materially change people's lives in a way that they can feel and that they can see.

But we know, going into an election, that when we make promises, when we say what we stand for to electors, there is a deep degree of cynicism when we say those things. It's how can we recapture that sense, how can we make people see the power of politics that we all know exists as well. There are just two ideas I wanted to throw out.

First of all, I think we are too defined in our politics—particularly in a post-Brexit, post-Trump, social media age—about the things that we disagree with, the people that we disagree with, rather than the things that we agree with. We're stood in a Parliament, the marketplace of ideas, and the exchange of those ideas needs to be paramount, not just the things that we are against.

Secondly, I think we have lost, in many instances, the ability to disagree agreeably. We will disagree on those ideas sometimes and we will say to each other that we disagree, but we need to do that in a kind and respectful way. Because we all want to reach the same place, which is a better future for our constituents and for the people of Wales. The thing that we disagree on sometimes is the means to go about it. I think that if we can tackle those two things, we will counter that cynicism that you talked about in Welsh politics.

We've all heard it, as Hannah said, 'You're all the same.' And if we're honest, the cynicism doesn't come from nowhere, it comes from repeated moments where politicians and politics have fallen short of the standards people expect. But here in Wales, we can have something different and something better to build upon. The work that the three of us have done on the standards committee, and others, has shown that trust isn't rebuilt with just slogans, it's built with systems and processes, stronger codes of conduct, clear declarations of interest, less influence from lobbyists and more independent oversight of complaints and behaviour, holding us all to a higher standard. Not lowering expectations, but raising accountability. And that matters deeply. Because our politics have always been rooted in our communities, in integrity and in the belief that power should be exercised with people, not done to them. This Chamber is built for consensus. It's built in a circle. There's a reason for that; it's how our politics should be conducted. So, when people say, 'They're all the same', our answer needs to be, 'Not here, not in Wales', not if we have the courage to keep raising standards, opening up our institutions and proving, through our actions, through our language and through our behaviour, that politics can be a force for good. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thanks to Hannah Blythyn for raising this really important topic, and to Tom and Peredur for contributing to this debate this evening.

As we approach the election in May, I know Members across the Siambr will be hoping for improved voter turnout. We all want Wales to have its voice heard by coming out on 7 May and casting their ballots. However, as in many elections, we know that some people will feel like there's no point, that no matter who they elect, we're all the same. And it is really incumbent on all of us, and all those candidates standing at this election, to change people's minds, to engage with them on the issues that matter, and to build trust and relationships with the people of Wales. Now, we all know it's harder to overcome cynicism than encourage it. It takes work to encourage people to put their trust in us and this place to improve their lives. It is the recognition that drives much of our work to promote democratic engagement. This work is essential for supporting communities across Wales, some of whom face multiple barriers to participation.

Our democratic engagement grant funds organisations that work with young people in our schools, connecting them to elected representatives, to build trust and encourage dialogue, and I've shared with Members all the work that's going on in this area. I recently met students at Cowbridge School. These intelligent, curious young people asked me about my background, interested to understand how I got into politics. They also asked me a lot of really challenging questions in that time. They were surprised that I come from a working-class background and was the first in my family to go to university. Some had assumed that all politicians were privately educated Oxbridge graduates. And my point is not my success, it's the assumptions that we attract. Conversations and personal connections will help younger generations approach democracy with fewer assumptions and, hopefully, less cynicism.

We also recognise that, to some people, we might all look the same. We're predominantly white and we're predominantly older—and I'm not looking at anyone in particular here—and disabilities—I'll keep looking down—are pretty much invisible. We know institutions are strongest when they reflect the people that they serve. We hear from partners that apathetic voters often point to candidates not feeling relatable to their community. When people seek candidates who look like them and have shared their experiences, it challenges the belief that politics is only for a select few. And that is what lies behind the diversity and inclusion guidance for political parties that we published in March 2025. Encouraging political parties to develop and publish diversity and inclusion strategies isn't box ticking, it's helping them increase the elected representation of under-represented groups. It also is what lies behind our pilot candidate diversity grant. We're not just fulfilling the duty under the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024, we're working with organisations with the experience and networks to engage with people in innovative ways, and remove barriers from groups currently under-represented in our democratic institutions.

The funded organisations are available to support candidates at the 2026 Senedd election and the 2027 local government elections, ensuring that no-one feels that standing for elected office is out of reach. Through the pilot candidate diversity grant, we are funding Shout Out UK to co-ordinate and design a candidate resilience guide to address abuse and intimidation online, which we know impacts many candidates. We all know that standing for office has a financial impact, all the more so for disabled candidates. Our access to elected office fund, delivered through Disability Wales, helps remove financial barriers for disabled candidates. I know people wanting to stand for the Senedd have less than a month before nominations close on 9 April, but there's over a year to encourage people to stand at the council elections. I hope everyone watching or in the Siambr will think about how they can ask people to stand who could provide service to their community. The Innovating Democracy Advisory Group's report, published yesterday, reinforces the point even more strongly. It underlines the importance of strengthening the structures and practices that support participation—that when institutions open up space to enable meaningful involvement, confidence in politics grows.

I share Members' concerns about the increase in AI and the influence of misinformation on social media. We are under no illusion of the threat it poses to democracy here in Wales. Whilst media regulation is not devolved to Wales, we continue to work together with partners across Governments, the Electoral Commission, the police and civil society to safeguard our democracy both at a national and international level. With the rise of deepfakes and misinformation on social media, there is work we and partners are carrying out to strengthen the skills of our electorate in identifying these types of posts, as well as knowing where to access legitimate information.

The recently published report from the family-friendly and inclusive Parliament review is further evidence that we cannot have true equality of opportunity in public life without standing up to intimidation. Of all the barriers deterring under-represented groups from participating in public life, there is none so egregious as that which puts both candidates and elected representatives in fear of their safety. I want to thank Joyce Watson and her colleagues for their work on this important review.

Reforms to our democratic system should also build trust. Increasing the number of Senedd Members will provide more capacity for scrutiny, enabling better oversight of Government decisions and holding Ministers accountable for those decisions. The Senedd took a significant step forward yesterday by passing the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Bill. That legislation will make important reforms to the standards process for the Senedd, including introducing a recall system that gives the electorate the final say on whether or not to remove a Member whose conduct has been found to be in serious breach of the standards expected. And strengthening accountability measures will give voters more confidence that those elected to represent them must meet clear expectations of behaviour, transparency and integrity.

The Bill also makes other reforms to strengthen the standards process by placing the Standards of Conduct Committee on a statutory footing, requiring the Senedd to appoint lay members to the committee, providing an element of independence and specialist expertise, and providing the commissioner for standards with the ability to undertake investigations on their own initiative.

I'd like to thank Hannah in her role as Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, and other committee members, on their excellent work on individual member accountability, and the committee's recent inquiry into dignity and respect, which has resulted in important recommendations for the next Senedd to consider. The recommendations aim to enhance the Senedd standards process, ensuring greater trust and transparency and improved support for those who raise complaints. I hope the recommendations are given significant consideration by the seventh Senedd.

While much work is being done, more remains ahead. We must continue supporting under-represented communities, improving working practices for elected officials, and removing barriers that make political participation difficult. We must continue to strengthen safeguards, promote civility, build trust and champion diversity. And, ultimately, building trust requires showing that democracy belongs to everyone. It requires demonstrating that integrity and openness underpin public life in Wales, and that the people who step forward to serve do so with a sense of responsibility and respect.

Whatever happens in the forthcoming election—and I mean in terms of participation as well as the results—it's important that we learn the lessons. That's why I've tasked officials with preparing a report, including learning the lessons from initiatives elsewhere to promote participation, for the relevant Minister of an incoming government and to inform a review by the relevant committee.

By working together as Government, communities, institutions and individuals, we can show that politics can be a space where people are heard, valued and represented, and the steps being taken will help shape a more confident, more inclusive democracy for the future, and the work will continue as long as trust remains worth building. Diolch.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you. 

Have a safe weekend. 

Diolch.