16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785552 0 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-0 C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785680 1 En 2026-11-11T13:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=302&l=en 261111-0 C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 787218 2 Cy 261111-0 I In the bilingual version, the left-hand column includes the language used during the meeting. The right-hand column includes a translation of those speeches. [R] indicates that the Member has declared an interest when tabling the business. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785553 3 Cy 261111-0 I The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Huw Irranca-Davies) in the Chair. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785555 4 Cy 2026-11-11T13:30:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Okay, let us begin. Good afternoon, all. We will move immeidately to item 1, questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care. Question 1, Gareth Beer. He is not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785617 5 En 2026-11-11T13:30:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=21&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785743 6 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care I Question 1 not asked [OQ64881]. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785621 7 Cy 2026-11-11T13:30:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=23&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 2, James Evans—not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785623 8 En 2026-11-11T13:30:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=28&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785745 9 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care I Question 2 [OQ64851] not asked. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785741 10 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care B Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785624 11 Cy 2026-11-11T13:30:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=29&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We will therefore move to questions from party spokespeople. I call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. First of all, the Reform UK spokesperson, Catherine Cullen—not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785627 12 En 2026-11-11T13:30:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=44&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785628 13 Cy 2026-11-11T13:30:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=45&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw So, we will move immediately, therefore, to the Welsh Labour spokesperson, Ken Skates. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785629 14 En 2026-11-11T13:30:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=52&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 267 267 Ken Skates https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=267 Leader of Welsh Labour Skates, Ken Diolch, Lywydd. Yesterday, I called for decency and respect to be reinstalled, and today we've got it. Minister, where can I access an assessment on the detrimental health impact that would be inflicted on children if 80,000 young people are deprived of free milk in schools? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785634 15 Cy 2026-11-11T13:31:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=76&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 Cabinet Minister for Health and Care ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you very much to the Member for the question. May I start by expressing my disappointment that the Members of the main opposition party are not present? Questions had been tabled by them on GP services in Carmarthenshire, on rural health care—and other Members had also prepared for those questions—and there is no opportunity to scrutinise and ask those questions, which lets many people in Wales down. And I think there's huge disappointment that the people of Wales aren't being served as they should be by their politicians. In terms of the question posed by the leader of the Labour Party, no decision has been made on this. You will know that consultation is ongoing at the moment, but, of course, we do understand the value of healthy, nutritious food for people and children in Wales, and we will always support and encourage anything that means that people can access healthy food for the benefit of their mental and physical well-being.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785644 16 En 2026-11-11T13:32:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=136&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 267 267 Ken Skates https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=267 Skates, Ken Minister, from what you've outlined, I take it that there has been no impact assessment of the consequences of removing free milk from 80,000 children in schools. That is a very, very disappointing situation to be in. Before any consultation takes place about whether to remove something of that nature, surely an impact assessment into the damage that could be caused should be undertaken. Minister, I join you entirely in criticising those who have failed to attend this afternoon, who have put performative and petulant politics ahead of representing the people that they were elected to serve. Now, under Welsh Labour, waiting lists had been falling for 10 consecutive months as a result of sustained investment and a relentless focus on recovery. And I recall that Plaid Cymru was often quick to dismiss that progress, but now those waiting lists are rising again. Other than the election, what specifically has changed that has caused progress to stall? And when can patients expect to see waiting times moving in the right direction again? Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785663 17 Cy 2026-11-11T13:33:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=205&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you. That is an important question from the Member, because the people of Wales, as are we in this Government, are expecting to see waiting lists come down. I don't believe that the Member is entirely right in saying that the Labour Government was totally successful when it came to waiting lists, because they were still exceptionally high when we came into office. And the pattern that we saw under the previous Government was waiting lists falling only to go back up again, and then fall and go back up, and that was a consistent pattern. What we have done, as I have mentioned many times now, is establish a new system that is more sustainable. Rather than funding being thrown at buying external services in in order to bring only those longest waiting lists down, we are investing in a whole-system approach that works from that time when someone goes to see their GP, and then the diagnosis and that diagnostic process, and then the treatment itself, and then the aftercare. That's where our investment is being made in order to ensure that not only do the waiting lists come down, but that they stay down. And I am confident that we will see that investment and that new plan that we have put in place, which we have worked with clinicians to develop, bearing fruit when the next figures are published this month. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785678 18 Cy 2026-11-11T13:34:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=298&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Peter Fox. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785606 19 En 2026-11-11T13:35:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=303&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Minister, general practice is often described as the front door of the NHS, yet GP practices across Wales continue to face growing pressures on their ability to deliver care. The 'Future of general practice in Wales' report found that, despite handling around 90 per cent of the NHS contacts, the share of NHS spending allocated to general practice has continued to fall, and concluded that delivering care closer to home would require a genuine shift of resources into primary care and a serious sustained financial commitment. Cabinet Minister, you were a member of the committee, with me, that reached conclusions that action was now needed to increase the proportion of NHS funding allocated to general practice, and to ensure that GP practices have the resources needed to meet growing patient demand. Can you share your progress in trying to alter that funding regime to enable GP practices to do what we want them to do? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785609 20 Cy 2026-11-11T13:36:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=373&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon The Member is entirely right to say that GPs have been, and are, under quite some pressure. We know that most first contacts are made in GP surgeries when it comes to patients requiring diagnosis or support, and this Government does appreciate all of the work done by GPs in Wales in looking after the people of Wales.  I, like the Member, was involved in drawing up the previous health committee report, which demonstrated those weaknesses and the need to shift resources, not only to shift resources to GPs, but also, to shift resources to the community. And that's why we, as part of our initial 100-day plan in Government, had asked health boards to provide plans on shifting 0.5 per cent of their financial resources into the community. I have now received those reports back—or the recommendations—from the health boards, and I am now going through the process of studying their findings and recommendations to see what they have done to shift those resources before approving or asking them to refine them further. So, we have started that process of getting the health boards to shift resources closer to home and closer to our communities. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785622 21 En 2026-11-11T13:37:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=462&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Thank you for that response, Cabinet Minister. I know you will agree with me, and I'm sure you will be working towards encouraging health boards to give a greater percentage than that, because we know that that won't cut it from a GP practice perspective.  Moving on, the Save our Surgeries campaign by the British Medical Association has called for long-term investment in recruiting, retaining and training more GPs. I know you brought a statement last week on the general workforce plan, but we can focus on a workforce plan around general practice, after hearing evidence of workforce shortages, growing pressures on GP services, and the concerning situation whereby newly qualified GPs were struggling to find work while practices reported they could not afford to recruit them. Again, given that you and I were on the committee that made recommendations, what progress has the Welsh Government made towards increasing GP numbers, improving retention and delivering the workforce plan that you were a key part in calling for? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785635 22 Cy 2026-11-11T13:38:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=538&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Once again, that's a very important question, because it sets out, or suggests at least, some of the steps that need to be taken in order to ensure that we have a sustainable GP service in our communities. And some areas, particularly rural areas, find it very difficult at the moment to retain GPs. We acknowledge and recognise that. That's why we have committed to recruiting up to 100 GPs by the end of this Senedd term, and those 100 GPs will be allocated to those areas where the demand is greatest. We are also now looking to start to pilot a service or a system of GP federation, so that GPs can work closer together while also removing some of those back-office costs that they have, in order to release some of that funding and to make it easier for them to operate, and also in terms of trying to build on the multidisciplinary teams that we have, because what GPs provide is more than just the doctor him or herself. We need to see more community nurses and we need to see more physiotherapists working from GP surgeries in order to provide broader and more holistic care services to patients, where many of those specialists can take the pressure off the GP and release the GP's time to focus on the most urgent issues. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785607 23 Cy 2026-11-11T13:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=602&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785730 24 En 2026-11-11T13:40:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=647&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785610 25 Cy 2026-11-11T13:40:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=638&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 3, John Clark—not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785611 26 En 2026-11-11T13:40:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=639&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785879 27 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care I Question 3 [OQ64869] not asked. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785719 28 Cy 2026-11-11T13:40:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=643&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 4, Sara Crowley. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785612 29 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care B National Cancer Strategy 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785613 30 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care O 12150 12150 Sara Crowley https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara 4. How will the new national cancer strategy support children diagnosed with cancer? OQ64904 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785614 31 Cy 2026-11-11T13:40:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=654&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you to the Member for the question. Our 10-year national cancer strategy for Wales aims to transform how the health service prevents, diagnoses and treats cancer. It has been designed with consideration given to all ages and cancer types, including childhood cancers. The aim is to do this while ensuring that people receive appropriate care and support, and giving the NHS the clarity needed to deliver better services and outcomes. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785625 32 En 2026-11-11T13:41:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=686&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Diolch, Weinidog. In September, I had the privilege of sponsoring the Kids Get Cancer Too event here in the Senedd. It was a deeply moving evening. We heard heartbreaking testimony from families whose lives had been turned upside down by childhood cancer diagnoses. But we also heard from the remarkable young people, like Kathryn and Mia, who spoke with extraordinary courage about their experiences. Honestly, they could do well in this place. One message came through loud and clear: children and young people cannot simply be treated as a smaller part of the adult cancer system, nor separately. Their cancers are different, they materialise differently, their treatment pathways are different, and their long-term physical, emotional and social support needs are very different too. What consideration is the Welsh Government giving with the strategy to childhood, teenage and young adult cancers, such as improved specialised care, mental health support and transition pathways from paediatric to young adult services? Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785641 33 En 2026-11-11T13:42:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=743&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon I'd like to thank the Member for that question. The Member is absolutely right that cancers in children and young people are completely different from cancers elsewhere and in other members of our society, because, to begin with, children are completely not in control of those cancers. Those cancers appear through no fault of their own in any way at all. So, we need to look at how we develop a cancer strategy for children slightly differently. That's why the strategy that we will be publishing in February, all being well, is a strategy that will include a specific focus on children and young people diagnosed with cancer, through a dedicated section in each chapter. But the approach to that will remain under review. The strategy aims to improve the experience and outcomes of children and young people, address inequity in access, and recognise the holistic needs of children and young people and their families. Finally, the strategy aims to ensure that children and young people can access appropriate specialist pathways, treatment, care and support when needed on their journey. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785645 34 En 2026-11-11T13:43:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=815&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12175 12175 Shav Taj https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav My constituent Molly Fenton has been a powerful advocate for young people living with serious and life-limiting illnesses. Around 180 children and young people are diagnosed with cancer in Wales every year, and, for some, that reality of living with incurable or terminal cancer rather than being cured. Minister, you've just mentioned that there will be a cancer plan that will be specifically focusing on young people and children. I guess, in England, one of the things that they're doing a little bit differently is that it's being supported by a dedicated taskforce. So, I was wondering what is it that the Welsh Government will be doing to ensure that young people living with terminal cancer receive most definitely the psychological but also the educational and practical support that they need, not only to survive but to live well and to pursue their ambitions and their pursuit of the next big thing. There are so many people who want to work, for example, whose everyday experience of being in work—. Reasonable adjustments, I accept, can be a bit more difficult for employers, but, nonetheless, it is about making sure that we support them to be able to live their lives fully, for the time that is available to them. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785654 35 En 2026-11-11T13:44:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=889&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you to the Member for those comments. She started by mentioning a fantastic and inspiring young individual, Molly Fenton. I've had the pleasure of meeting Molly several times. She genuinely is inspiring and I'd like to put on record my thanks to Molly for her work and her assistance over the years in developing cancer policy. We had a public call for evidence, and that call for evidence gathered insights across the third sector, across families and others, specialists in the field, which closed at the end of last month. We received hundreds of pieces of evidence, and many of those will have referenced exactly what the Member spoke about there, about the need to ensure that there is support for children and young people during their education journeys as well, ensuring that they don't lose out, and that will be a part of the consideration as we formulate the cancer strategy and then publish it in the new year. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785608 36 En 2026-11-11T13:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=902&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785616 37 Cy 2026-11-11T13:45:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=950&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 5, to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Social Care, Mental Health and Women's Health. Question 5—Elfed Williams. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785618 38 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care B Social Care 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785619 39 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care O 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed 5. How will the Welsh Government strengthen social care during this Senedd? OQ64892 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785620 40 Cy 2026-11-11T13:46:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=967&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Deputy Minister for Social Care, Mental Health and Women’s Health Jewell, Delyth We have published our national care service programme, setting out practical action for this Senedd. We are developing a social care academy, progressing the fair pay agenda, strengthening commissioning and safeguarding arrangements, supporting unpaid carers, and joining up services around people’s needs. Our aim is to ensure that individuals have a greater voice and greater access to the right support. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785626 41 Cy 2026-11-11T13:46:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=995&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed Thank you. I was pleased to chair my first meeting of the cross-party group on social work, social care and advocacy yesterday. We discussed a number of issues, including advocacy, a sector that is very important to me. With advocacy week in mid November, I'm concerned that a lack of awareness about the work of advocates and patients' rights is creating big challenges. Also, according to the recent Age Cymru report, 'Advocacy Counts', over 18,000 people were supported last year, an increase of 50 per cent, by 347 advocates, a decrease of 8 per cent. I am eager to work with the Government over the parliamentary term, and to meet with the Deputy Minister soon to discuss decisions in the social care sector, including advocacy. Does the Deputy Minister agree that more needs to be done to promote the role of advocates if we want to tackle the challenges facing the care sector and ensure that patients and families get the support they need? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785656 42 Cy 2026-11-11T13:47:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1066&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Thank you very much for that question, and for your work in this area. Yes, I do agree with you. Advocacy can make a huge difference, as you've said, to the lives of people by ensuring that people understand their rights, do have a voice, and can take a meaningful part in decisions made about their care. That's why we have established social care champions within Llais, in order to ensure that there is a stronger and clearer voice for the people who access care services. We also recognise the broader importance of advocacy for children and families. In Wales, a proactive offer of independent professional advocacy is available for children who are entitled to that support, in order to ensure, Llywydd, that their voices can be heard in the decisions taken relating to their lives. We also recognise the important contribution advocacy makes for parents, helping them to understand the decisions affecting their families. So, as the Member has mentioned, it's not just providing the advocacy services themselves that's a challenge here; the real challenge is to ensure that people understand their rights, know that this support is available, and know how to access that support. Through our national care service programme, we are working to create a stronger social care service that is more sustainable, with the voice, rights and experiences of people at the heart of all of that. I'd be more than happy to meet with the Member, because he does have an important voice in this discussion. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785669 43 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care B Capital Funding 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785670 44 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care O 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. 6. What Welsh Government capital funding is available to health boards? OQ64899 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785671 45 En 2026-11-11T13:49:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1170&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you for the question. The overall health, care and prevention capital budget for 2026-27 is £626 million. More than £112 million of this has been provided directly to NHS Wales organisations as discretionary capital. The remaining funding supports ministerially approved capital schemes, with significant investment directed towards supporting health board priorities. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785674 46 En 2026-11-11T13:49:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1196&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Thank you, Minister, for that answer. You'll be aware that the proposals around the university hospital in Cardiff are for a total new rebuild. That will come with a hefty price tag, I would suggest to you, Minister, and the numbers you just talked of most probably wouldn't come close to covering the capital costs of such a rebuild. So, how is the Government engaging with the local health board to make the rebuild happen? Because anyone visiting the site can appreciate the difficulty that site faces in being able to accommodate patients in a safe environment and to allow clinicians to do the job that they're trained to do in a safe environment. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785633 47 En 2026-11-11T13:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1202&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785657 48 Cy 2026-11-11T13:52:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1322&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785637 49 En 2026-11-11T13:50:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1227&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you for the question, and you make a very good point about the difficult environment in parts of University Hospital of Wales Cardiff. I visited myself a couple of weeks ago and saw the estate and how parts of it weren't where they should be. But I also appreciate the work done by the clinicians and all the members of staff at University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. So, the health board did put a bid forward during the last term for improvements, or for a new build, but the previous Government rejected that bid and didn't support it. We are still awaiting something from Cardiff and Vale University Health Board regarding the redevelopment of University Hospital of Wales. As and when that comes to my desk, then I will have to judge and decide the best way forward, based on the application that they put forward. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785646 50 Cy 2026-11-11T13:51:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1281&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 7 from Jane Dodds, and to be answered by the Deputy Minister. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785650 51 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care B Mental Health Services 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785651 52 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care O 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane 7. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure mental health services are being provided as close to people’s homes as possible? OQ64887 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785652 53 En 2026-11-11T13:51:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1294&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Diolch, Jane. We want to ensure that, wherever people live in Wales, they have access to the mental health services that they need. The mental health quality statement sets out our expectation for services to ensure consistent, equitable, person-centred support across Wales. Our aim is to strengthen community mental health support through the transformation to same-day, open access mental health services, and this work is already under way. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785661 54 En 2026-11-11T13:52:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1322&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Weinidog. I'm keen to hear your views of mental health services being close to home and in the community. We hear so often from people how important it is that it's local to them, that they know it because it's in their community and therefore they are able to really connect with it. There is a real challenge for us in Powys—just to bring up once again the Powys Teaching Health Board proposals, they actually take away mental health services from the communities across Powys and actually centralise them in one place, which is in Bronllys. Now, for me, actually, this smacks of us going back 30 or 40 years, when people with mental health difficulties were placed away in a rural area, in one institution, because that's what it's going to represent. So, I just wonder—. I think I can anticipate your answer, but I just really want to make you aware that this is a really worrying proposal on two levels: removing the mental health services from the communities, but also, fundamentally, ghettoising people with mental health problems in one place away—miles away—from their homes. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785673 55 En 2026-11-11T13:53:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1394&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5207 5207 Delyth Jewell https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5207 Jewell, Delyth Diolch, Jane. Look, I appreciate why you're asking the question. I know how passionate an advocate you are, and continue to be, for local health services, and, truly, that is commendable. I agree with you in terms of what you've said, that, mental health, it is so important that these services work around the reality of people's lives, and that people can get the support they need when they need it, and that is crucially important. Again, with what is happening—. I mean, the Member, obviously, Jane, is going to be aware, and Members more broadly are going to be aware, that Powys Teaching Health Board is currently consulting on proposals as part of its clinical services plan. My understanding is that what is being proposed would certainly not be aimed at overly centralising services, because I understand the health board has certainly reduced the number of out-of-area placements. I hope that, on that, we could both agree that that is a positive proposal. I think that all of the options within the consultation include significant investment in community mental health support, crisis response, open access models, '111 press 2', virtual services as well, alternatives to admission like sanctuary services. So, the proposals as a whole, not just in-patient services, I think, do need to be looked at here. But what is also really important is that what is happening in Powys at the moment is not closed off, that this is an ongoing dialogue. People living locally have an opportunity to ensure that their opinions can be heard, and I'm sure that the Member will be calling once again for that to happen, because it's so important that these services are designed with local people in mind. But, of course—and I know you'll appreciate this—because the consultation is under way, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment further, because I want it to be centred around what local people are calling for. But, in terms of the principle that you were talking about about mental health services—and this being true for people regardless of where in Wales they live—that they should be built around the reality of people's lives, that is exactly what our transformation is going to be building towards. But, diolch, Jane, for the question. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785615 56 En 2026-11-11T13:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1502&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785708 57 Cy 2026-11-11T13:59:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1742&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785710 58 En 2026-11-11T13:59:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1796&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785636 59 Cy 2026-11-11T13:55:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1524&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 8—Lis McLean.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785642 60 Cy 2026-11-11T13:55:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1530&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you, Lywydd. We all know, each one of us who's sitting here today, even those who haven't turned up, what visits to A&E are like these days. [Interruption.] Sorry, I thought you were saying something. So, there is an accident and emergency services department in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, and it's clear that conditions aren't as they should be—[Interruption.] 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785649 61 En 2026-11-11T13:56:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1563&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Oh, I'm sorry. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785653 62 Cy 2026-11-11T13:56:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1564&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis I understand. I'm so sorry.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785655 63 Cy 2026-11-11T13:56:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1565&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon It's okay.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785660 64 En 2026-11-11T13:56:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1566&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Oh, my gosh. Right, okay.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785662 65 En 2026-11-11T13:56:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1570&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Sorry, if you could ask the tabled question first.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785664 66 En 2026-11-11T13:56:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1572&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Yes.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785717 67 En 2026-11-11T13:56:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1573&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Thank you.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785720 68 En 2026-11-11T13:56:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1574&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Second take. [Laughter.] 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785630 69 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care B Accident and Emergency Services 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785631 70 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care O 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis 8. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve accident and emergency services in Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr? OQ64897 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785632 71 Cy 2026-11-11T13:56:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1586&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 Cabinet Minister for Health and Care ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you for the question. Far too many people are waiting for far too long at our A&E departments. We are supporting the health board and holding them to account for improvements at Prince Charles and Royal Glamorgan hospitals in order for them to improve on those targets and their outcomes. The board remains at escalation level 4 for urgent and emergency care. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785659 72 Cy 2026-11-11T13:56:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1617&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis I have received a number of cases regarding the condition of the accident and emergency departments in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, and it's clear that conditions aren't as good as they should be. I realise that Welsh Government is working hard with partners to deliver improvements that will take away a lot of pressure on current hospitals. However, there's a need to take action now. Improvements such as improving access to food and drink, providing more comfortable chairs, and also maintaining toilets more often would improve patients' experiences significantly, and decrease the risk of further harm to people who are ill. Can the Minister outline what plans are afoot to improve conditions in accident and emergency departments for people in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg area, and across Wales? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785687 73 Cy 2026-11-11T13:57:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1677&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you very much for that supplementary question. As it happens, I was in a meeting with the BEDS campaign group before this meeting. The group is looking mainly at what happens in north Wales, and they were saying exactly the same thing. I'm sure that it's no coincidence that the people I was speaking to around an hour ago were saying that there were problems, as far as they were concerned, in north Wales hospitals when it comes to people's comfort in A&E departments, the cleanliness of toilets, or access to food and drink, or the provision of food and drink. So, it appears here that we have a more structural national problem that needs to be looked at. My expectation is that health boards who are responsible for this provision should ensure that people, as they go into A&E departments, do get the care that is expected from them, that they find somewhere that is comfortable for their needs, that they have access to hot drinks and food when required, and as a minimum that the toilets should be clean. That is the expectation, and I would hope that they would live up to that expectation, and I'm happy, therefore, to contact the health boards to remind them of those expectations. But, at a broader level, you will be pleased to hear that I will be making an announcement in this Chamber next week on how we expect to see the patient flow improve in accident and emergency departments across Wales, and I will be making that announcement in this Chamber next week, as I said. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785700 74 Cy 2026-11-11T13:59:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1777&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 9, Tom Montgomery—not present.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785894 75 En 2026-11-11T13:59:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1780&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785898 76 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care I Question 9 [OQ64874] not asked. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785895 77 Cy 2026-11-11T13:59:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1781&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 10, Art Wright—not present.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785903 78 En 2026-11-11T13:59:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1785&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785908 79 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care I Question 10 [OQ64859] not asked. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785896 80 Cy 2026-11-11T13:59:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1786&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 11, Sam Rowlands.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785706 81 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care B Wrexham Maelor Hospital 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785707 82 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care O 8734 8734 Sam Rowlands https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8734 Rowlands, Sam 11. What assessment has the Cabinet Minister made of the performance of the accident and emergency service at Wrexham Maelor Hospital? OQ64901 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785638 83 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785639 84 Cy 2026-11-11T14:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1802&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785640 85 Cy 2026-11-11T14:00:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1804&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you very much to the Member for that question. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785643 86 En 2026-11-11T14:00:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1808&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Performance at Wrexham Maelor’s emergency department isn't acceptable. Too many patients face prolonged waits. I expect the health board, supported by NHS Wales Performance and Improvement, to reduce long waits and ambulance handover delays, improve discharge, and demonstrate sustained improvements in safe, timely care.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785648 87 En 2026-11-11T14:00:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1825&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 8734 8734 Sam Rowlands https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8734 Rowlands, Sam Thank you for your response, Cabinet Minister. Thank you for recognising the issues that my constituents in Fflint Wrecsam are experiencing at Wrexham Maelor Hospital far too often. I was able to visit the emergency department recently with my colleague Ken Skates, as Labour leader, to understand some of the issues that are being faced by the department. At the moment, two things struck me in particular. The first was the dedication and the honesty of the staff on the ground. There are doctors and nurses who are turning up shift in, shift out, to do the work that they're presented to do and support those patients in very, very difficult circumstances. And particular thanks to the matron, Claire, who took us around that department to show us the issues that they are facing. But the second thing that struck me, Cabinet Minister, was the awful conditions those very same people are having to work in, day in and day out. And they showed us that it’s near impossible to do their job in the facilities that they are having to work in at the moment. So, Cabinet Minister, will you work with the health board to create a solution to improve our emergency department in Wrexham, so my constituents can access the care that they need in the timely fashion that they need it as well?  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785672 88 En 2026-11-11T14:01:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1894&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Yes, thank you very much for that question. Can I just note again the absence of questions from the official opposition here? I'm sure they said previously that walkouts were childish, and that we shouldn't see walkouts, but there we go; they must have changed their minds. But this is an important question. This is why we've got these scrutiny sessions. You raise an important issue for the people of north Wales, and parts of mid Wales, who depend on the services at Wrexham Maelor ED. I've been there a number of times myself in a personal capacity and seen and experienced the fantastic work done by many of the clinicians there in very difficult circumstances. But, as I mentioned in the previous response, I will be publishing a new framework next week, which is looking exactly at the issues that you raised on how to improve the flow of patients from ambulance handover through to discharge, making sure that they get the best experience possible, don't stay in the ED longer than required, and certainly don't stay in the hospital beds and deteriorate longer than required. So, maybe we'll have an opportunity to scrutinise that framework and you might want to challenge me next week, when I publish it. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785676 89 En 2026-11-11T14:02:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=1972&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 278 278 Carrie Harper https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board has been in special measures for over a decade, and there are still serious questions remaining in terms of leadership, in terms of organisational structure as well. Like other Members, I also visited the accident and emergency department last week, and we can all see that they're struggling under enormous pressure. We've got long-standing parking problems at the Maelor as well. The hospital has been without a front door for the last three years because it was damaged by a car. So, on the face of it, different issues, but they point to a general lack of action, an organisation that's dysfunctional and struggling with the basics. I acknowledge that the Cabinet Minister has inherited these long-standing issues, but people across Wrexham and north Wales are incredibly frustrated with the health board. We've had a gutsful, to be blunt. What would constitute failure in the eyes of the Welsh Government, and at what point does the Cabinet Minister conclude that the current leadership arrangements are just not working? Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785685 90 En 2026-11-11T14:03:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2035&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon I'd like to thank the Member for the questions that she raised and the points that she made. I sympathise with a lot of what she said, that people in north Wales are frustrated, to put it mildly, with how the health board has delivered services in the north. Just to assure people that, clinically, the services in many parts, and across the north, are exceptional. We have a problem with governance and with leadership and culture. That's why I commissioned the well-led review, and I'm expecting that well-led review to be published imminently. I will be making a statement in the Chamber on 24 November, based on that well-led review, and we will make decisions on the next steps for Betsi Cadwaladr following that. But I've also made my expectations very, very clear when it comes to them delivering on some of the fundamentals, such as reaching their cancer targets, reaching their ambulance handover delays, ED times and finances. I expect those to see improvements not just in the statistics, but a sustained improvement over a four-month period, and that will allow us to then decide what steps we need to take with Betsi Cadwaladr moving to the future. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785658 91 En 2026-11-11T14:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2102&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785683 92 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785757 93 En 2026-11-11T14:05:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2122&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785665 94 Cy 2026-11-11T14:05:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2118&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 12, Joe Martin—not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785668 95 En 2026-11-11T14:05:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2121&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785758 96 Cy 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care I Question 12 [OQ64883] not asked. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785675 97 Cy 2026-11-11T14:05:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2122&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Thank you very much, Deputy Minister and Minister. We will move now immediately to item 2— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785677 98 En 2026-11-11T14:05:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2129&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 278 278 Carrie Harper https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Can I raise a point of order? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785679 99 En 2026-11-11T14:05:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2131&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Have we had notice of the point of order? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785681 100 En 2026-11-11T14:05:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2133&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 278 278 Carrie Harper https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie I have sent it through.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785682 101 En 2026-11-11T14:05:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2135&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I'm not sure we've received it. If we could have a look at it. We'll take the point of order, but we haven't had time to see it yet. So, go ahead, please. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785684 102 En 2026-11-11T14:05:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2143&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 278 278 Carrie Harper https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Diolch, Lywydd. Every Member has a right to express robust views, but we also have a responsibility to do so within the rules and with respect for the dignity of this Senedd. Now, given that Reform Members have chosen not to attend today in response to your ruling against the use of discriminatory language, can you confirm that your ruling does not prevent legitimate debate on immigration or any other matter, but simply requires Members to abide by the standards of this Siambr? On Remembrance Day, when we remember those who sacrificed so much in defence of our democracy and our freedoms, is it not particularly important that all of us respect our democratic institutions by turning up, by scrutinising the important issues before us on health, on local government, and representing the people who have sent us here? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785686 103 En 2026-11-11T14:06:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2197&l=en 261111-1 1. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I thank the Member for that point of order. I can confirm that my ruling stands. We are not standing in the way of robust debate or in terms of different political opinions being expressed in this Chamber, but it's within the conduct that we expect of Members and within the Standing Orders as well. I've made my ruling very clear indeed. Thank you for raising that point. We'll now proceed. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785688 104 Cy 2026-11-11T14:06:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2220&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We'll move now to item 2, questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning, Siân Gwenllian. Question 1, Janet Finch-Saunders. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785693 105 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Menai Strait Data Centre 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785695 106 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet 1. What is the Welsh Government's position on the proposed planning application for a data centre on the Menai Strait, near Caernarfon? OQ64857 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785696 107 Cy 2026-11-11T14:07:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2241&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for the question, Janet. As with all planning applications, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on this specific project, Llywydd, as that could prejudice the role of Welsh Ministers in the future should the planning application come before them for determination. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785698 108 En 2026-11-11T14:07:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2263&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Diolch. Cabinet Minister, it's never stopped me in the past. I am a conduit for the electors in Bangor Conwy Môn and I feel it's important to put it on the record here the problems this data centre— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785801 109 En 2026-11-11T14:07:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2279&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian You can ask. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785802 110 En 2026-11-11T14:07:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2280&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Yes. I am doing. [Laughter.] The warning signs could not be clearer. This development would cover almost 41 hectares beside the environmentally sensitive and beautiful Menai strait. It would demand an enormous 450 MW electricity connection and it would require almost 12 million litres of water every single day. Even Dŵr Cymru itself has questioned whether the sewerage infrastructure has the capacity to cope. We the Welsh Conservatives support enterprise, investment and skilled employment, but a responsible Government must not sacrifice our communities, our natural environment or any of our resources at any price. Our residents and businesses deserve better. Let me be absolutely clear: we do not want this data centre. It is in the wrong place; it must not be allowed to proceed. I know you've mentioned your position, and I respect your position, but my question would be whether you could exercise some power to call in this application and refuse permission for the development that is simply unsuitable for the Menai strait. Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785704 111 Cy 2026-11-11T14:09:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2358&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much, and thank you for respecting the fact that I am unable to comment on specific projects because of my role as Minister. I can tell you that this Government's Cabinet will be discussing the initial report on proposed action for a cross-governmental holistic policy on data centres, and we will be discussing that initial report later this month. So, clearly it would be premature for me to say anything about the approach there. My officials are working closely with officials responsible for the Government's digital economic policy in order to develop a strategic policy framework in relation to data centres. We will be considering international approaches as part of that work, the approaches taken across the globe in terms of data centres, and we will learn lessons from what works best. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785647 112 Cy 2026-11-11T14:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2402&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785667 113 Cy 2026-11-11T14:10:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2432&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12186 12186 Beca Brown https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12186 Brown, Beca The history of Wales is full of examples of communities having to bear the burden of unsuitable developments while someone else, somewhere else, enjoys the benefits of those unsuitable developments. That is what's being proposed by the Menai data centre, a development that is completely unsuitable for the location, a message that was clearly heard by the hundreds of people who gathered on the maes in Caernarfon recently to protest against it. Given that the economy of this area on the banks of the Menai strait is based to a large extent on the landscape, the coast, the wildlife and the sense of place, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the long-term economic benefits of the Menai data centre, including the number of permanent jobs expected, so that the local community can weigh up what could be gained against what could be lost? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785666 114 Cy 2026-11-11T14:11:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2489&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. Once again, I do have to say that my role as planning Minister, and indeed the role of other Ministers too, does mean that we cannot express a view on any specific planning application in case it reaches our desks in the future. But I do think that the fact that the Cabinet will be discussing that initial paper on the approach to policy and also moving ahead with developing a strategic policy framework in relation to data centres does demonstrate that we do recognise that this Government needs to address the need for a framework. I had a joint meeting yesterday with the Minister for economy to progress this work in terms of creating that comprehensive policy framework, which would cover the whole of the Government. We will be discussing the high-level issues soon, but there will be more work to be done on that, and there will also be an opportunity to listen to public opinion as part of this process, and also to take into account the views of stakeholders and everyone else who is interested in the issue. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785705 115 Cy 2026-11-11T14:12:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2575&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 2, David Hughes—not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785715 116 En 2026-11-11T14:12:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2578&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785711 117 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning I Question 2 [OQ64878] not asked. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785712 118 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785713 119 Cy 2026-11-11T14:12:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2580&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We'll move now to spokespeople's questions. I call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. First of all, Reform UK spokesperson Francesca O'Brient. Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785716 120 En 2026-11-11T14:13:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2593&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785721 121 Cy 2026-11-11T14:13:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2594&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Welsh Labour spokesperson, Jayne Bryant. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785723 122 En 2026-11-11T14:13:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2597&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch, Lywydd. The previous Welsh Labour Government invested record levels of funding, which delivered a record number of social homes and has left a strong pipeline in Wales. Even if this Government's target of 20,000 social homes in four years is met, which we all hope it will be, Minister, the projections suggest that we'll still have a housing shortage unless a further 20,000 homes are built in that period. Mixed-tenure developments that deliver high-quality homes to rent and buy, alongside social homes, are absolutely crucial, Minister. What action is the Welsh Government taking to boost the wider landscape of house building across Wales? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785727 123 Cy 2026-11-11T14:13:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2640&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for that question. I have to say that I was very disappointed, having walked in here this afternoon, to see empty seats where Reform usually sit. Opposition Members have a duty to hold me and other Ministers to account and to scrutinise our work on behalf of the people of Wales. So, I welcome the questions from the Labour spokesperson and I look forward to the questions from the Conservative spokesperson this afternoon. In terms of your points regarding the ambition for 20,000 social homes and the part of the whole industry in realising that ambition, it is an ambitious target. We are building on work that was done by the previous Government, and the forecasts look as if there'll be another important year in terms of moving this agenda forward, with over 400 homes in the pipeline for that. I have placed a clear focus on developing social housing, but I also recognise that the contribution of the whole housing sector, the commercial side, is crucial for us to drive that agenda forward. We have held a meeting recently with the association representing house builders, recognising their important contribution to building more homes in Wales. But I have to say that my focus is completely clear. We have the powers, we have more levers than ever in terms of the social housing sector, and for me, developing that supply of social housing is the way to respond to the housing crisis and eradicate homelessness. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785691 124 Cy 2026-11-11T14:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2702&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785714 125 En 2026-11-11T14:16:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2783&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch, Minister. It is really important that we do have that focus on social homes, but also that mixed tenure is so important, and to make sure that narrative is getting out to others as well. You talked about homelessness in your answer there, Minister, but the housing support sector has raised serious concerns that 68 per cent of organisations offering housing and homelessness support have seen an increase in demand for services. Because of this, the sector is calling for a 16 per cent increase in funding. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the increased resources required for vital support services and to end homelessness in Wales? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785718 126 Cy 2026-11-11T14:17:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2829&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. I share the vision of bringing an end to homelessness in Wales. I welcome what the UK Prime Minister and the Chancellor said, this vision that we eradicate homelessness and that there is a national mission for that. Of course, the contribution of charities in this area is crucial to us as we progress. In addition, the preventative work that will be going on through implementing that Act that both of us have worked on is also crucial, and implementing the Act means that we'll be able to put the emphasis on the multi-agency work to ensure that we identify problems, that the different agencies work together when problems are facing families and individuals who are facing homelessness, and that the work moves in that direction, so that we genuinely can deliver this great vision that both of us share. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785735 127 Cy 2026-11-11T14:18:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2916&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Peter Fox. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785742 128 En 2026-11-11T14:18:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2919&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Minister, when new housing developments are built, local authorities almost always require a proportion of homes to be delivered as affordable housing. However, for people living with conditions such as motor neurone disease, the challenge is often lengthy waits for adaptations to existing homes or for suitably adapted properties to become available. While building regulations and planning guidance encourage greater accessibility, there is no consistent requirement for a proportion of new homes to be built to a higher accessibility and adaptability standard. Cabinet Minister, given the growing demand for housing across Wales, will the Welsh Government consider requiring a portion of new affordable or social homes to be designed to meet the needs of people with severe disabilities and life-limiting conditions? If not, what further action will it take to increase the supply of suitable adapted homes? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785744 129 Cy 2026-11-11T14:19:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=2980&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. This too is part of the preventative agenda. If we have people who can live in homes that have been properly adapted, which stop them from having falls and can meet other needs in terms of ensuring that the doors are wide enough for wheelchairs and so on, that is all part of enabling people to live independently in their own homes for as long as possible, and that is part of this Government's vision.  The way that local government assessments of housing need are made has changed recently. Those assessments do allow local authorities to identify particular needs in their own areas and then to work that in to their development plans. I very much hope that we will see more emphasis on the exact needs that exist in different areas. We also have a housing with care fund, which is a particular fund available in order to develop homes with support for different groups within our society. But I agree with you, we could go further.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785694 130 Cy 2026-11-11T14:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3002&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785728 131 En 2026-11-11T14:20:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3003&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785736 132 Cy 2026-11-11T14:24:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3242&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785709 133 En 2026-11-11T14:21:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3074&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Thank you, Cabinet Minister. We know there is some good work being carried out by registered social landlords in making provision, but sadly nowhere near enough for the growing demand of people who need it. So, we hope to see some progress in that regard. Moving on to town regeneration, Cabinet Minister, the Welsh Government has announced funding with the aim of increasing footfall in our town centres, but despite this, we continue to receive reports of struggling businesses and declining shoppers. While funding announcements are always welcome, local communities need to see evidence that regeneration schemes are delivering lasting improvements rather than short-term headlines. Cabinet Minister, given the continued challenges facing many high streets across Wales, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of whether its town centre regeneration programmes are delivering value for money and whether further targeted support, such as additional business rates relief, is required to properly support our town centres? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785722 134 Cy 2026-11-11T14:22:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3136&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for that important question on regenerating our town centres. You will know that this is one of this Government's priorities. We have established a taskforce that looks specifically at some of the challenges facing our town centres. That taskforce will bring forward its recommendations very soon. They will look at issues such as business rates, whether we need to take further steps in that direction. They will look at planning issues in order to ensure that it could be easier to change the use of vacant spaces on our high streets so that they can become homes for our people. There are examples where there is a step change happening. You are right in saying that we need to keep an eye on these programmes on all occasions, and we need to ensure that they do deliver value for money. But I was in Wrexham recently, for example, and I saw how town centre regeneration plans in Wrexham are making a difference. One could see the activity there. Tŷ Pawb is one wonderful example where small businesses, microbusinesses indeed, have an opportunity to develop, and then there are examples of them moving out to take up space on the high street—space that may have been vacant for some time. There is now further investment happening in Wrexham in light of the town centre programme. So, there are good examples out there, and I think we need to learn from those and look positively to the future of our town centres and to think how we can make the most of the funds available, whilst also developing what the next steps need to be. I look forward to seeing the taskforce's work when it is brought forward. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785724 135 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Social Housing 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785725 136 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed 3. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to provide more social housing in Bangor Conwy Môn by the end of this Senedd? OQ64893 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785739 137 Cy 2026-11-11T14:24:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3277&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed If I can say, Llywydd, it's a pity that the Reform leader, who is a Member for that constituency, isn't here to listen to the question and to be part of the discussion.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785726 138 Cy 2026-11-11T14:24:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3288&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Local authorities across the Bangor Conwy Môn constituency have been allocated over £70 million in this financial year, via our main social housing capital programmes. Taken together, this will contribute to the delivery of over 1,100 social homes across this Senedd term. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785690 139 Cy 2026-11-11T14:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3302&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785692 140 Cy 2026-11-11T14:25:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3314&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed I thank the Minister for her response. I welcome the Government's ambition to provide more social housing that is fit for purpose over the next four years. In seeking to realise this pledge, it's important to recognise that different communities have different needs and capacities. For example, some rural communities in Bangor Conwy Môn have faced significant challenges when trying to cope with the number of new homes being built locally, whether that be in terms of school places, local job opportunities, or the availability of public services. I would therefore appreciate if the Minister could outline the processes that the Welsh Government will follow to strike the right balance in terms of building more social housing without compromising the character and capacity of rural communities, while bearing in mind also that the need for housing in some smaller villages is significantly lower than in larger villages and towns. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785697 141 Cy 2026-11-11T14:26:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3381&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. You're absolutely right. The needs of towns and cities can be very different to the needs of smaller rural communities, communities where the Welsh language prospers. We need to be very careful that that is all taken into account with the development of any new proposals. But just to put a little more meat on the bone in terms of what we are spending on at the moment through our capital grants, the ClwydAlyn housing association is working on a site in Holyhead, a development known as Cae Bothan. There are 54 new homes, including bungalows and flats, that are being developed there. There is construction work progressing on an Adra development, Incline Fields in Bangor. I know exactly where that is. That is developing very quickly with 48 new homes. Those are just two examples of urban developments. In terms of developments in rural areas, I think what's extremely important is that we bear in mind the local housing market assessment. Through that assessment, one can identify exactly what the differing needs are in different places. We know that rural areas face particular challenges, and the rural housing facilitators are a valuable resource for us to identify what the real needs are. It is possible for the social housing capital grant to be used by community-led housing groups, and I would like to see more of that kind of provision made. It can be very valuable for communities to come together to identify the needs, and to work together, with the support of the housing enablers, to develop in that way, which is in keeping with needs, but also in keeping with the character of that community. So, I hope that you can see that we really do take these issues seriously. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785699 142 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Planning Rules and Regulations 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785701 143 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 8734 8734 Sam Rowlands https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8734 Rowlands, Sam 4. What action has the Cabinet Minister taken to ensure that planning rules and regulations are applied consistently across Wales? OQ64902 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785702 144 Cy 2026-11-11T14:29:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3601&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I am taking significant steps to support consistent application of planning legislation through the implementation of the Planning (Wales) Act 2026. When the Act comes into force, the new framework will make planning law clearer and easier for all stakeholders to understand and apply consistently across Wales. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785703 145 En 2026-11-11T14:29:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3565&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 8734 8734 Sam Rowlands https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8734 Rowlands, Sam Thank you for your response, Cabinet Minister. I'd like to give you an example of an issue in my own constituency where there seems to be a real lack of adherence to regulations, and that's in particular in Penley, which is a small village in Fflint Wrecsam, which has been beset by two separate developments, which are not being resolved. The first is a development by a firm called Morris Homes, who have failed to complete the road network around the estate to an adoptable standard. They've failed to complete an access road for emergency vehicles, and they've failed to deal with the drainage and street lighting systems across the estate. There may be a level of forgiveness if this were a recent development, but this development took place 20 years ago, Cabinet Minister, and they're now refusing to come to the table to discuss how this would be resolved in a timely manner. Secondly, in the same village, in Brookfield Close, developed by Primesave Properties, residents have concerns about the maintenance of their access roads, and residents have not received necessary essential documentation to manage the estate. And here's a theme taking place. We all want good developments to take place. We all want good new houses to be built, but we also need to ensure that developers are following the existing planning rules, regulations, and obligations placed on them. So, Cabinet Minister, what assurances can you give to the people of Penley that the Welsh Government will ensure developers are held to account and will fulfil their obligations to residents? And what powers can be used or could be developed to ensure those obligations are being met? Thank you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785740 146 En 2026-11-11T14:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3602&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785752 147 Cy 2026-11-11T14:30:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3656&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much, and thank you for bringing the concerns of local residents to our attention this afternoon. I do expect every planning authority in Wales to apply planning law and national planning policy in a fair manner, robustly and consistently, while also acknowledging, of course, that individual planning decisions have to reflect the individual circumstances of each case. Planning authorities have a responsibility for monitoring development and deciding on whether enforcement action is appropriate where the development has not been made in accordance with planning permission. When specific requirements, secured through planning conditions or planning obligations, are not being delivered, planning authorities have various powers available to them to address any non-adherence, where appropriate. I was talking there about the planning system. The other issues that you've mentioned, such as adopting roads or drainage issues, are issues for a different statutory regime, so it is important for us to differentiate between these different elements where there are concerns on this specific estate. And it's a matter for the local authority to consider the legal arrangements that are relevant to the specific case you mentioned. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785787 148 Cy 2026-11-11T14:34:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3887&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785790 149 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785791 150 Cy 2026-11-11T14:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3602&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785792 151 Cy 2026-11-11T14:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3602&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785797 152 En 2026-11-11T14:34:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3888&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785766 153 En 2026-11-11T14:32:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3756&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12166 12166 Kiera Marshall https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 Marshall, Kiera Consistency must also mean that people living in different parts of Wales receive the same level of protection. I want to thank you, Minister, for the work you've done already on building safety, and I want to highlight growing concerns around PAS 9980 and the idea of tolerable risk assessments to sign off buildings without removing underlying fire safety defects. I'm wondering what assurances you could give so that Welsh planning and building safety requirements will not allow developers to escape responsibility for original construction failures, because Taylor Wimpey has recently told a constituent of mine that they will fund fire safety remediation works necessary to bring their buildings to a tolerable standard in accordance with PAS 9980. Could you rule out allowing a building to be considered safely remediated simply because a fire risk assessment deems its remaining defects tolerable? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785769 154 Cy 2026-11-11T14:33:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3802&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for that question. I'm not entirely familiar with that exact issue that you raised, that particular rule, I have to admit. You will be aware, and you will have heard me say numerous times in this Chamber, and I said it in committee last week, that I expect developers to deliver what they have promised by signing the developers' contract with the Welsh Government. I will ask officials for a progress report on this. They are monitoring the situation and are having discussions with developers on a very regular basis, and the progress is too slow. And I have said, if progress is not adequate by the end of this year, then next year, early in the next Senedd term, I will bring to the attention of the Senedd, as I am duty-bound to do, the names of those developers that haven't reached the targets that we as a Government have set for them, namely that work should commence on every building and development by the end of this year. If they don't get to that point, then I have no option but to come here on behalf of constituents and start to name those developers. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785798 155 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B No-fault Evictions 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785799 156 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 12184 12184 Becca Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 Martin, Becca 5. Will the Cabinet Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s plans to end no-fault evictions? OQ64888 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785800 157 Cy 2026-11-11T14:30:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3658&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you. Giving renters greater confidence, security and comfort in their homes is a priority for this Government. We will deliver lasting change through a programme of legislative reform, which starts by tackling poor landlords, and protecting tenants, before looking to limit no-fault eviction and make the cost of renting more affordable. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785729 158 En 2026-11-11T14:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3902&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785731 159 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785732 160 Cy 2026-11-11T14:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3902&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785733 161 Cy 2026-11-11T14:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3902&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785746 162 En 2026-11-11T14:36:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3974&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785734 163 En 2026-11-11T14:35:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3928&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12184 12184 Becca Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 Martin, Becca Diolch. No-fault evictions can and do have devastating impacts on families, leaving parents facing the fear of losing their home and the distress of potentially being uprooted from their communities and schools.  I've spoken with households who've been advised by local councils to remain in their homes until bailiffs arrive, or face losing their housing duty. Too often, this is with very little communication or reassurance about what happens next. In one case specifically, a family was not offered temporary accommodation until the very day of eviction. As a mother myself, I cannot begin to imagine the fear and anxiety this must cause.  Could the Minister assess and explore what additional support could be introduced to protect families facing the threat of losing their homes? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785738 164 Cy 2026-11-11T14:36:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=3974&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. Situations like this are more common because of the cost-of-living crisis, and it's a huge concern of mine that families are facing that kind of scenario. That is why the First Minister's legislative statement on 14 July set out our ambition as a Government to tackle and to protect renters, in order to ensure that families are treated more fairly. So, there will be a series of Bills. The first renters Bill will tackle poor landlords, will strengthen protection for tenants, and make it a requirement to share data related to renting. This will then lay firm foundations for a second renters Bill later on in this Government's term, and that will seek to deal with cases of no-fault evictions, in order to limit them. And the second Bill will then be fed by the evidence that will have come through in the first Bill.  We will need the support of other parties in this Senedd in order to proceed in that direction, but I very much hope that we will reach that point in the coming years.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785747 165 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Housing Provision in Town Centres 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785748 166 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 12151 12151 Matthew Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew 6. What steps is the Government taking to increase housing provision in town centres? OQ64886 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785749 167 Cy 2026-11-11T14:37:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4078&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. I want more people living in our town centres and calling those spaces home. That's the ambition with regeneration and housing funding—to deliver new homes and bring empty properties back into use across Wales, including in our town centres. But I want to go further, and our town-centre taskforce is exploring opportunities to create more homes in town centres, and ways to overcome the barriers. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785755 168 En 2026-11-11T14:38:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4112&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew Diolch, Weinidog. Vacancy rates are a big issue across Wales, not just on the Reform seats here, who have not bothered to turn up, but especially in our town centres, where people have Reform Members representing them, but not here in the Senedd today. It's clear to see this in the towns across Sir Fynwy Torfaen. We all want to see our high streets thrive again, and housing, including social housing, has a big part to play here, because housing more people in town centres will bring them closer to the shops, they will build communities, and will help to bring down anti-social behaviour.  This is much needed in my home town of Pontypool. A Pontypool landlord recently told me that vandalism and planning red tape are two of the main reasons he was struggling to develop housing above shops. And bringing down vacancy rates will, in turn, help to curb that vandalism. So, how will you work with the town-centre taskforce, and with landlords, to assess the barriers to progress on housing in our town centres? Diolch yn fawr.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785768 169 Cy 2026-11-11T14:39:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4185&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. And I do agree that social housing has the ability to play an important role in regenerating town centres, not just social housing, but all kinds of housing. They can help to bring empty properties and spaces above shops back into use, and to develop the homes that are much needed. So, they do two or three things at once. They can support local businesses and help to make our high streets more prosperous. I am, therefore, pleased that the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee is undertaking an inquiry on empty properties, and I'm looking forward to seeing their recommendations, to see what more the Government can do, what other powers are needed, or what is within our capability at present to push this agenda forward, so that we can see more of this happening. Vandalism is a part of why someone would want to move in this direction. Empty properties tend to attract vandalism, and it is something that's very untidy on our high streets as well, isn't it? The taskforce will be taking specific evidence on that specific issue, and the police will also be providing some input into the work of that taskforce. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785737 170 Cy 2026-11-11T14:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4202&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785750 171 En 2026-11-11T14:41:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4273&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12164 12164 Elyn Stephens https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12164 Stephens, Elyn Gweinidog, last week I had the pleasure of meeting with Beacon Cymru. They showed me around one of their flagship projects of regeneration in Tonypandy. It was the Somerfield store when I was a child, and I'm pleased to say that they've kept the iconic ramp as an homage to its former life. This was a real shining example of what can be done with town-centre regeneration. We happened to be there when a class had just left, where 4D Academy were training young pupils about basic construction skills and measuring. We could see their work on the boards there. What more can we do to make sure that this best practice is being shared across Cymru, because I think this is a real shining example? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785754 172 Cy 2026-11-11T14:41:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4321&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for talking about that excellent example and about the way in which local people can improve their skills—their construction skills, and other skills, I'm sure—because of a project like this. I'm aware that we do need to develop workforce skills much more than we are at present. We need to get more workers into the construction industry. Several actions are being taken by the Government at present, including new level 2 apprenticeships in trade skills, a micro-qualifications pilot, a Medr apprenticeship, and new vocational CSEs as well that are being introduced next year. So, there is work going on to try to increase the size of the workforce, but, certainly, there is a lot more that we could be doing, and projects like the one that you've made reference to—. Again, the town-centre regeneration work can do a lot more than a person might think initially. There are so many advantages in the way that this Government can be allowed to develop our vision for the regeneration of town centres. So, thank you for that example. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785770 173 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Local Housing Allowance 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785771 174 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah 7. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government on the local housing allowance freeze? OQ64905 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785772 175 Cy 2026-11-11T14:43:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4428&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian The ongoing freeze of local housing allowance rates is a cruel blow to low-income renters in Wales. We have repeatedly called as a Government—the Cabinet Minister for Finance, the Deputy First Minister and myself—on the UK Government to increase the local housing allowance so that it reflects the true cost of renting. The inaction from the UK Government means that low-income renters will face significant financial hardship and housing insecurity. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785784 176 En 2026-11-11T14:44:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4474&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah I agree. When housing benefits don't automatically rise in line with private rentals, a freeze can mean that the maximum amount of support a household can claim stays the same year on year. Today, only 0.7 per cent of homes in Wales would be affordable for people to move into if they were reliant on housing benefits. This growing gap between private rental costs and housing benefits caused by the UK Government deciding to continue freezing local housing allowance is leaving low-income households, many of whom are single parents, at greater risk of housing security. This is why it's so important that the Government makes decisions with vulnerable households in mind. Single-parent households can only claim a 25 per cent discount to their council tax, even though their overall household's income will be likely 50 per cent less. That decision to pause the council tax re-evaluation until 2032 potentially leaves these vulnerable households at greater risk of financial hardship. I'd like to ask what continued cross-portfolio discussions the Cabinet Minister has had with the Cabinet Minister for Finance and the Cabinet Minister for social justice to support vulnerable households to prevent them from being pushed into poverty. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785751 177 En 2026-11-11T14:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4502&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785759 178 Cy 2026-11-11T14:45:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4545&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. You will be aware that the Deputy First Minister did make a statement yesterday on plans to provide support to people because of the cost-of-living crisis. But I am extremely disappointed that we are unable to take advantage of changes to the local housing allowance, which could have prevented a number of families from falling into poverty in the first instance and from facing homelessness. The UK Government has only increased the housing allowance twice, placing increased pressures on households in the private rental sector. Restoring the allowance to pay for the lowest 30 per cent of market rents would reduce the pressure immediately in the short term. We want to see them go further, but that would be a start. We have regularly called for a long-term pledge to restore the allowance to pay up to the fiftieth percentile, ensuring that support does reflect the real cost of housing more accurately and protects families more effectively. The private rental sector has an important role to play here in Wales, including for families who can't access social housing or buy their own home. Therefore, the allowance is important in order to make homes affordable. The allowance is causing hardship for families. Llywydd, if you will allow me to be a little political at this point, I do think that the fact that the UK Prime Minister and Chancellor, during the budget speeches, talked about a moral mission to reduce homelessness—. Well, that's wonderful, I agree entirely with that, but this is one of the ways open to them that would make a huge difference to so many families who are trapped in poverty and are facing homelessness because their rental costs have increased so much. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785788 179 Cy 2026-11-11T14:48:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4689&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Good afternoon, Minister. You've answered what I was about to ask, but just one more point, if I may. Thanks for the response, and I thank Sarah for raising this issue. I do support entirely your work and your vision as well. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785796 180 En 2026-11-11T14:48:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4706&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane The data is there, isn't it, and so solid. As Sarah says, 0.7 per cent of advertised rentals in Wales are within the reach of people who are on housing benefit. Social lettings are down by around a quarter. We know that there are 10,000 people in temporary accommodation right now, at a cost that Audit Wales puts at £172 million a year, which we are spending heavily on. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785803 181 Cy 2026-11-11T14:48:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4735&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane I agree entirely with what you said about the Government in London and the fact that they want to tackle homelessness. But what can we do here in Wales? That's what I wanted to ask. Is there anything else that we could do? Thank you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785807 182 Cy 2026-11-11T14:49:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4756&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much, and thank you for reminding us with those statistics. It is important that we do focus on this situation. There was an opportunity in the recent UK budget to actually put that right, or to start to do so, but unfortunately they haven't chosen to go down that particular path. In terms of what we can do, specifically in terms of rents in the private sector, it would be to introduce legislation. That is why I answered a question earlier about our intention to bring a renters Bill forward—the first—but then to build on that, gathering the data that would feed into the issues around the local housing allowance, but also doing other things too. So, that first Bill would allow us to deal with some of those issues, and then we could proceed to a second Bill that could begin to lead to fair rents in the private sector. Now, I hope to have your support when we come to that stage, and I hope to have the support of everyone who wants to see us as a Government moving in the right direction in those terms, because I do think that, at the end of the day, we all know that rents have gone through the roof far too often. People's income isn't catching up with them, and this situation creates a real crisis for so many families. So, there are things that we as a Government can do. We are working on those, but you all need to get behind the ideas that are currently being developed. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785753 183 Cy 2026-11-11T14:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4802&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785825 184 Cy 2026-11-11T14:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4802&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785930 185 En 2026-11-11T14:51:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4872&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785776 186 Cy 2026-11-11T14:51:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4868&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 8, Jason O'Connell—not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785786 187 En 2026-11-11T14:51:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4871&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Not present. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785931 188 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning I Question 8 [OQ64876] not asked. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785789 189 Cy 2026-11-11T14:51:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4872&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Question 9, Gwyn Williams. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785793 190 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Housing and Social Infrastructure 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785794 191 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 5083 5083 Gwyn Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5083 Williams, Gwyn 9. What is the Cabinet Minister doing to integrate housing developments and wider social infrastructure? OQ64894 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785795 192 Cy 2026-11-11T14:51:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4886&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian National planning policies, set out in 'Planning Policy Wales', are based on a placemaking approach. Adequate and efficient infrastructure, including services such as education and health, is crucial for economic, social and environmental sustainability, and planning authorities should, in conjunction with all the key providers, take a strategic and long-term approach towards the provision of infrastructure as part of plan making. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785805 193 Cy 2026-11-11T14:51:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4920&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5083 5083 Gwyn Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5083 Williams, Gwyn Thank you. Recently, I and my team locally have held street meetings in Cwmrhydyceirw, Pontarddulais and Gorseinon. Concerns have been raised by a large number of local residents about an increase in housing without a corresponding increase in the capacity of hospitals, GP practices, schools, libraries or access roads. The population of the local area is increasing, but residents in my constituency are only highlighting the fact that the services and support structures necessary for an increase in housing are not yet there. Certainly, we must ensure that communities throughout Wales have adequate infrastructure and services before increasing the number of houses and residents in an area. Would the Minister agree with me that housing is a key priority, but that we must also increase the capacity of infrastructure and services to ensure that there are no gaps in demand, so that I can respond to concerned residents in Gŵyr Abertawe? Thank you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785814 194 Cy 2026-11-11T14:53:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=4985&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Yes, I agree, and the planning policy does set out that local planning authorities should plan and support the kind of infrastructure that is needed to respond to the needs of the communities that they serve and when new housing developments are under consideration. That's what the national planning policy sets out. It is clear that a development needs to be located in such a place where it is possible for it to make use of existing infrastructure or where additional infrastructure is planned for it. And when we're talking about infrastructure, what we mean is schools, roads, public transport. It's all those things that people need apart from just a house. So, it is quite clear, because inappropriate or ineffective infrastructure is not going to respond to the needs of our residents and neither will it lead to economic, social and environmental sustainability either. So, I would remind planning authorities, working with key providers to take a strategic, long-term approach in drawing up their plans, and to always bear that in mind. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785823 195 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Home Energy Efficiency 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785824 196 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh 10. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve home energy efficiency across Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni? OQ64891 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785756 197 En 2026-11-11T14:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5102&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785760 198 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785761 199 Cy 2026-11-11T14:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5102&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785762 200 En 2026-11-11T14:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5102&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785763 201 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785764 202 Cy 2026-11-11T14:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5102&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785765 203 Cy 2026-11-11T14:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5102&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian This year, we have invested a total of £150 million in energy efficiency upgrades across Wales—£107 million to improve social housing through the optimised retrofit programme, over £37 million to support low-income households through the Nest scheme, and over £5 million in interest-free loans through the Green Homes Wales scheme. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785767 204 En 2026-11-11T14:55:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5136&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Diolch, Weinidog Cabinet. Energy costs remain unaffordable for many households across Wales, and we know that they're going to be increasing as well even more come January. In my constituency of Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni, I'm really concerned about the poorest households, who are taking on significant debt, deep debt, to heat their homes and cover just essential costs. I really welcome the £130 million in extra support that was announced yesterday by Plaid Cymru, including on energy bills, which will really help households across Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni, but, of course, alongside this immediate support, we also need to make sure our homes are cheaper to heat and also bring energy bills down for good. So, Cabinet Minister, following the Warm Homes review, how will you scale up this Welsh Government programme to reach more of our poorest households and deliver a lasting reduction in their bills? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785785 205 Cy 2026-11-11T14:56:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5190&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I share your concerns about the high cost of energy, and support with bills is vital. We have tried to do some of that with the statement this week about cost-of-living support, but I do agree with you also, in that we have to think in the long term and bring in some preventative steps. Our programme for government does put improving energy efficiency at home at the heart of the work that we want to do. Following the review of the Warm Homes programme, I announced £17 million in additional funding for upgrading home energy efficiency during this financial year, and £5 million in additional funding for Nest, £8 million for the optimised retrofit programme, which supports social housing, to bring those social homes up to standard, but also, importantly, to help bills to come down. We have also invested £4 million in new area-based approaches, and I hope to announce further investments in due course. In terms of the review of Nest, it drew attention to the fact that Nest was a great help to many families—that's why I want to invest more in it—saving £590 per year on average, and, of course, improving health and well-being, and I do want to see that scheme continuing. The work that the pilot scheme is doing looks at expanding to a whole-area approach. At present, social housing can use a pot of money and can be upgraded, but perhaps, around that housing, there are homes that have not received investment, and we need to move away from that. I want to see entire areas, with all of the homes in them, being improved so that the quality of the lives of the people living in them is improved and helps with the cost-of-living crisis by bringing bills down, whilst also reducing carbon emissions as people move away from gas, and, in rural areas, away from diesel and oil, so that we electrify our system, which will lead to a reduction in bills. There are so many benefits to undertaking this work and, in terms of the cost of living, this is a priority. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785809 206 Cy 2026-11-11T14:59:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5376&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Finally, Cabinet Minister, question 11. Andrew R.T. Davies. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785811 207 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning B Rural Planning 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785812 208 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning O 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. 11. Will the Cabinet Minister provide an update on her recent meeting on rural planning with the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability? OQ64898 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785813 209 Cy 2026-11-11T14:59:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5391&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you for continuing to pursue this issue. I had a productive meeting with the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability on 30 September. We discussed a range of issues where our portfolios interact and where we can support each other. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785774 210 Cy 2026-11-11T15:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5402&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785778 211 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785779 212 Cy 2026-11-11T15:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5402&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785780 213 En 2026-11-11T15:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5402&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785781 214 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785782 215 Cy 2026-11-11T15:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5402&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785783 216 En 2026-11-11T15:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5402&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785922 217 Cy 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning I The Deputy Presiding Officer (Kerry Ferguson) took the Chair. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785775 218 En 2026-11-11T15:00:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5412&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for that answer, and I refer Members to my declaration of interests in the Members' register. I asked you this question some weeks ago, at your last ministerial question session, and you said you had a meeting imminently with the rural Minister to discuss this very issue, which I raised with him in committee. I'm just wondering: are you in a position to update the Chamber as to the thinking now that the Government is putting into this particular measure about adopting greater flexibility in permitted development rights for rural properties so that this policy can be taken forward positively? It doesn't cost the Government any money, it would unleash new housing opportunities in the countryside for redundant buildings and it has proven to be successful in other parts of the United Kingdom—I really can't see what's not to like about it. So, are you in a position to update us on whether the Government is taking this forward? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785806 219 Cy 2026-11-11T15:01:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5465&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. I have commissioned a review of rural housing and agricultural needs, focusing on how the planning system can support these areas—which is over and above what you're asking about—to see what else the planning system can contribute to rural sustainability. But this review will look at what permitted development rights should or could be appropriate for Wales. Clearly, we want to ensure that there are no problems arising through adopting this approach. You will be very familiar with the fact that we will have to gather the evidence first. Our planning policy recognises that rural diversification and on-farm diversification can provide new employment opportunities, increase prosperity and reduce the need to travel, and planning authorities have to adopt a constructive approach in terms of proposals related to agriculture, particularly for those that are needed to follow changing farming practices or to comply with legislation, but there is room for us to perhaps go further. So, there is a review in the pipeline and I'm sure you will ask me again quite soon for an update on progress on that review. Thank you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785815 220 Cy 2026-11-11T15:02:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5551&l=en 261111-2 2. Questions to the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry Thank you very much, Cabinet Minister. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785818 221 Cy 2026-11-11T15:02:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5554&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry We move on to item 3, the topical questions. Alun Cox. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785819 222 Cy 261111-3 3. Topical Questions B Health Visitors at Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785820 223 Cy 261111-3 3. Topical Questions O 4491 4491 Alun Cox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 Cox, Alun 1. Will the Cabinet Minister make a statement regarding the return to work of health visitors at Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board? TQ1514 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785821 224 En 2026-11-11T15:02:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5569&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 Cabinet Minister for Health and Care ap Gwynfor, Mabon We welcome health visitors returning to work. The priority now is restoring services for families affected by this dispute. I also want to recognise and thank those health visitors who continued to work throughout, helping to maintain essential services and support for children and families during a very difficult period. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785822 225 En 2026-11-11T15:03:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5588&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 4491 4491 Alun Cox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 Cox, Alun Diolch, Weinidog. I think we can all agree that the news that health visitors will be back in work soon makes this a good day. And without going full Ron Davies, it is a very good day. Firstly, and most importantly, it's a good day for residents and families in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg area to have their health visitors back doing their crucial work and back in place. We sometimes only get to assess the value of a service by its absence. The families and children supported no doubt will be relieved that the dispute is coming to a close. It is, of course, a great day for the health visitors themselves. Their perseverance and determination has been a hallmark of a dispute that was years in the making and resulted in months of strikes. Their call for recognition, their exasperation with the board, which started a process and then ended that process, and their belief that, for future generations of health visitors, this recognition is needed, has to be commended. That sustained them through the long months of this dispute. I congratulate Unite and the way in which their representatives have made clear to me their demands and their understanding of the situation. The lesson for workers everywhere is, of course, that collective action through recognised trade unions can and does pay dividends. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785826 226 Cy 2026-11-11T15:04:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5679&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 4491 4491 Alun Cox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 Cox, Alun May I also thank and congratulate my fellow Members on these benches? We have been robust in our commitment to the health visitors before and after the election. It is possible that some of us, in our naivety, had thought that this could be sorted out in a week, maybe a fortnight, but time did not diminish our support. We were determined to carry on. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785773 227 Cy 2026-11-11T15:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5702&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785777 228 En 2026-11-11T15:05:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5710&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 4491 4491 Alun Cox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 Cox, Alun Can I also recognise the quiet work of the Minister and his team? Whilst he has been clear that the decision is for the board, he made it abundantly clear regarding his expectation of the board. And I know he used all his convening powers to get us to where we are today. I am sure he will be relieved that this dispute is coming to an end, not only because of the impacts this dispute has had on the service, but also it will now minimise the number of times per week I and others tackle the Minister, bring him to the side, and ask him whether there is anything else he can do. Diolch yn fawr. It would be churlish of me not to recognise the movement from the board. I have been a fierce critic of the board on this issue, and still feel that this was a dispute that never needed to have begun. I am hopeful that they will learn from this dispute and similar mistakes will not be made. Gweinidog Cabinet, as this dispute comes to a close, we now need to focus on what comes next: a remediation plan by the board to deal with the backlog, a clear plan to reintegrate the workforce back into the service and, potentially, a lessons-learned activity at the board level to ensure we do not repeat this. What assurances has the Minister had, or requested, that some of these activities will be undertaken? I'll finish with the health visitors themselves. To my friends, whose dedication to their service is remarkable, they have shown that they would not be browbeaten, even when, in their heart of hearts, all they wanted to do was return to a job they love. I have learned quite a bit from those health visitors, not least that public service is alive and well in many parts of our system. They will now receive the recognition that they so deeply deserve. Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785804 229 Cy 2026-11-11T15:07:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5824&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon I thank the Member very much for those comments and the points that have been made. I do agree entirely with the Member that this is a good day, not only for the health workforce, but, more importantly, for the vulnerable children and families in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg area who have needed this service, who do need the service moving to the future, and those children and families who have not been able to access these services during the strike period, but now will be able to access that service. But let's be clear and recognise here once again the crucial role played by the health visitor workforce. We time and time again discuss the importance of early intervention and ensuring that services are available in the community, and this is exactly the provision that the health visitor workforce provides. They identify problems before those problems escalate and cause problems for families, for society, and, of course, put financial pressures on our health service. So, I recognise that role and I'm grateful that we have reached this point where we will see the health workforce—the health visitors, rather—returning to work on the sixteenth. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785827 230 En 2026-11-11T15:08:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=5913&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon From the outset, I placed a clear expectation on the health board and Unite to get around the table and reach an agreement. The health board, Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, and Unite announced that, under the agreement that they have come to, the striking health visitors will return to work on 16 November. The immediate priority now is the restoration of health visiting services for children and families, recognising the vital role that the health visitors play, including in safeguarding. The agreement does not provide for the automatic rebanding of existing band 6 health visitors to band 7. And just to be clear, the agreement provides a route for eligible health visitors to move into a new and distinct band 7 specialist health visitor role, which is an evolution on the position that we had, and a welcome one. With regard to the specific questions that the Member raised, I will now be seeking a meeting with both Cwm Taf health board and Unite in order for me and for everybody involved to learn the lessons from this experience, ensuring that we learn the best practice as well, and that we have a system in place whereby Cwm Taf can ensure that those health visitors coming back to work are now fully embedded, and that they can continue with the work that they have so long wanted to do over the last months.   16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785810 231 En 2026-11-11T15:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6002&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785816 232 En 2026-11-11T15:10:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6011&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 5107 5107 Vikki Howells https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107 Howells, Vikki Well, Minister, I'm pleased that Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board has finally seen sense and awarded health visitors the grading that their skills and experience truly deserve. I'd like to add my thanks, and those of my Welsh Labour colleagues, to those already expressed in support of our health visitors, their representatives in Unite the Union, and every single person who showed their support in this just cause. Well done to all involved. Thankfully, they could deliver the outcome that you, health Minister, couldn't, with your refusal to get involved, so that health visitors can get back to doing the job they love, giving children the best start in life and supporting their families. And we know that there was a precedent set by your predecessors in Welsh Labour for how you could have got involved and intervened directly. But my question today, though, is that, although the heroic stand taken by Cwm Taf Morgannwg health visitors has rightly drawn our attention, there are health visitors in other health boards across Wales who are still employed at a grade lower than band 7. So, as I've said in this Chamber before, I really do believe that we need a national approach to this issue, so that health visitors across Wales are adequately recognised. Will you make this a priority? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785828 233 En 2026-11-11T15:11:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6090&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon Thank you for those comments, Vikki. Just to clarify and correct a number of things, you might want to reflect on the contribution that you made when you said that I had refused to get involved, and that there was precedent set by previous Ministers. Both of those statements are not correct. It's not the fact that I refused to get involved; I couldn't get involved. I'd expect you, as a Minister in the former Government, to know that. It's unfortunate that you don't. You say that there was a precedent set by the previous Ministers. If you compare apples and pears, that might be the case, but you can't compare apples and pears. There are completely different circumstances. Again, I would expect a former Minister to know that. It's disappointing that you don't know it. So, either you don't know it because of ignorance, or you choose to say things that are not correct in this context. However, the Member is absolutely right in saying that health visitors across Wales are employed in different ways, because health visitors in Cwm Taf Morgannwg provide a different service from health visitors in, say, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, from health visitors in Aneurin Bevan University Health Board. Again, you're not comparing the same jobs. But, absolutely, it is my wish to see a national approach to this. That's why I've commissioned a piece of work on developing a national approach to health visiting, which is carried out by the chief nursing officer, and I expect to see a report back on that in the new year. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785833 234 Cy 2026-11-11T15:13:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6186&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry Thank you. Finally, Sera Evans.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785834 235 En 2026-11-11T15:13:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6189&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 330 330 Sera Evans https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=330 Evans, Sera Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I would very much like to echo the sentiments of my Plaid Cymru colleagues in welcoming the resolution of this dispute, and the return of health visitors to their vital work. It is a positive outcome for the workforce, for families and communities across the Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board area, and I want to pay tribute to the health visitors who have been nothing short of formidable during this dispute. However, as Alun Cox suggested, the end of the dispute is only the beginning of the next phase. There's an important responsibility now on the health board to ensure that the service is restored fully, that the workforce feels valued and supported, and that the experiences of families who have gone without provision are properly addressed. Gweinidog, yesterday we heard from the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health about the many areas of support that our health visitors provide, not least in terms of vaccination rates, and that is a worry for me in Afan Ogwr Rhondda specifically. So, what further role does the Cabinet Minister see for the Welsh Government in monitoring this progress towards the preventative health agenda, in particular around vaccinations, and ensuring that the health board is accountable for delivering on any commitments? And also to add, Gweinidog, you were absolutely clear from the outset of this dispute that you were unable to get involved, but we know full well, as Alun Cox also outlined, that you were working really hard behind the scenes with the health board and Unite to bring this dispute to an end, and I'm very glad that it has reached that conclusion. Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785838 236 Cy 2026-11-11T15:14:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6279&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon I thank the Member for those comments.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785839 237 En 2026-11-11T15:14:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6281&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon And the Member is absolutely right that the health visitors in question were absolutely formidable. I managed to meet up with a number of those health visitors on a number of occasions. I brought them into the office here to hold discussions with them. They door-stopped me on a few occasions. They met up with me at the conference. They made it clear that they wanted to be back out there working, and I got the message loud and clear, and I said that I would do whatever I could, within the limited powers that I had, to make sure that there was a resolution to this issue. Again, let's be clear that health visitors in this instance, or anybody taking industrial action, they don't do it for fun. It's not fun. They are giving up a lot in order to try and achieve what they think is the right thing for them and the sector and the people that they work with, and I absolutely respect that. And let's be clear: in the previous administration, Unite and Cwm Taf weren't talking to each other. They had not had discussions since April. Relationships had broken down utterly, completely, between both parties. I am glad that they got back around the table, and that's what happens when you bring people together. When you get them talking and sharing information and looking at each other's eyes then you will find a resolution, and that's what happened in this instance. They got back around the table and they found a way forward in very difficult circumstances. They were poles apart initially, but they got back around the table and found this resolution, and I am happy for the health visitors and indeed the people that they represent. During this process, we made sure that we held Cwm Taf health board to account on the monitoring of the actions that they were taking in respect of ensuring the well-being of the children and vulnerable families that those health visitors wanted to be out looking after. During the summer holidays, I was concerned specifically about that period of time for children who, if they were otherwise in school, would have had some monitoring. They didn't when they were back home, so we held the health board to account. We made sure that they reviewed each and every one of the cases of the thousands of children that needed looking after in Cwm Taf health board area. So, we held them to account. We held their feet to the fire. We made sure that there were mitigating actions in place for the well-being of those children as the strike was continuing. And I will be continuing with monitoring progress, making sure that those children and families, vulnerable families, are looked after during this process of transition as they are getting back into their work, so that nobody is lost in the system during that period. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785832 238 En 2026-11-11T15:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6302&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785846 239 Cy 2026-11-11T15:17:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6466&l=en 261111-3 3. Topical Questions C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry Thank you, Cabinet Minister.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785852 240 Cy 2026-11-11T15:17:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6469&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry We move on now to the 90-second statements. Nick Carter. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785853 241 En 2026-11-11T15:17:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6473&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Today, I'd like to pay tribute to Rubicon Dance, the oldest community dance organisation in Wales, on their fiftieth anniversary. Rubicon sees thousands of people of all ages every week, from its studios in Adamsdown in my constituency of Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf, and in day centres, schools and hospitals across Cardiff, south Wales and beyond with its online courses. It offers so many different sessions, from creative dance for small children, which my own children attended, to engaging with dementia patients as part of its dance and health programme with the NHS. Last Friday, I attended their celebration in Cardiff and heard from Alan, a stroke survivor who spent four months in hospital and was discharged home in a wheelchair. Alan shared his moving experience of how the movement to music sessions offered by Rubicon had been fundamental to his recovery, and in fact equally as important as his medication. Like so many arts organisations across Wales, Rubicon faces funding challenges, and I hope the whole Senedd can get behind me in recognising the importance of community dance organisations like Rubicon, and wish them a happy fiftieth anniversary. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785880 242 En 2026-11-11T15:18:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6540&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Firstly, I'd like to declare an interest: I am a lifelong superfan. Dirprwy Lywydd, this week we celebrate the extraordinary career of one of Wales's greatest sporting icons, Jess Fishlock. She retires as Wales's most capped football player and our all-time leading international goal scorer, achievements that place her among the very greatest athletes of our nation. But Jess Fishlock's legacy is about far more than records and trophies, and I was reminded of just how much Jess has transcended the game when I overheard a group of my local under-nines debating their top-10 footballers of all time. Those names were, as you would expect, Messi, Ronaldo, all the global superstars, but amongst those names was Jess Fishlock. To those young boys, there was no distinction between men's football and women's football. They simply recognised one of the greatest footballers that Wales has ever produced, and that perhaps tells us more about her impact than any statistic every could. But perhaps her greatest legacy will not be found in the record books, it will be found on the football pitches across Wales, in the thousands of girls who've seen our girl reach the highest level of the game and realise that they can do the same. Throughout her success, she has helped grow the football game, build confidence and ambition in our girls and young women, and create opportunities that will benefit not only those girls themselves, but our nation and the future of Welsh sport. So, on behalf of the people of Wales, I want to say, 'diolch, Jess'. Thank you for the memories, for the barriers that you have broken and for the generations that you have inspired. You leave the game as a legend, as my shero, but your impact on Wales will endure for a generation to come.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785829 243 En 2026-11-11T15:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6602&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785849 244 Cy 2026-11-11T15:23:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6825&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785860 245 Cy 2026-11-11T15:24:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6851&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785871 246 Cy 2026-11-11T15:24:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6873&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785836 247 En 2026-11-11T15:20:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6658&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 12164 12164 Elyn Stephens https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12164 Stephens, Elyn Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to pay tribute to Michael 'Pancho' Locke, who sadly passed away last week at just 47 years old. Growing up in the early 2000s, seeing someone from our part of Cymru on MTV was incredibly cool. Dirty Sanchez was outrageous, chaotic and hilarious, but for a young teenager like me, there was something special about seeing people with our accents and our sense of humour making their mark on the world. Years later, I met Pancho a few times at San Portablo in Port Talbot, which he co-owned, where I experienced first-hand the patience and kindness that so many have spoken about in their tributes. Behind the outrageous stunts and larger-than-life television personality was a man known for his warmth, his generosity and loyalty. He was immensely proud of Port Talbot, championed local talent and encouraged others to pursue their ambitions. The tributes from lifelong friends, fellow performers and people across the community speak volumes about the difference he made to those around him. My thoughts are with his family, his friends, Nigel and everyone at San Portablo. Pancho brought laughter to millions, but perhaps his greatest legacy is his love and affection with which so many people will remember him.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785840 248 Cy 2026-11-11T15:22:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6735&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry At finally, Safa Elhassan. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785841 249 En 2026-11-11T15:22:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6737&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa Diolch. They give their time, they share their skills and they carry responsibilities. This Trustees' Week, I pay tribute to tens of thousands of trustees supporting charities across Wales.  I declare an interest as a trustee of Race Council Cymru, where I see the commitment that goes into serving our communities. Behind our community centres, foodbanks, school governing bodies, youth clubs and charities are trustees, safeguarding donations, supporting staff and making difficult decisions, often after their own working day ends. Their work happens outside the spotlight and their impact reaches into homes across our nations. I particularly recognise trustees of colour and those from global majority backgrounds, bringing professional expertise, lived experience and community understanding to decisions that shape lives. Their contributions deserve recognition across the whole of the charitable sector. From Gŵyr Abertawe to communities throughout Wales, trustees turn generosity into practical support and good intentions into lasting change. To every trustee balancing the responsibility with work, family and caring commitments, thank you. You give more than your time; you help protect the trust that holds our communities together, and this week we celebrate your service. Every week, Wales benefits from it. Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 787220 250 Cy 2026-11-11T15:23:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6825&l=en 261111-4 4. 90-second Statements C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry We will move now to motions to elect Members to committees. If there are no objections, I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and for voting, in accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40. Does any Member object? No. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785845 251 Cy 2026-11-11T15:24:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6851&l=en 261111-5 Motions to elect Members to committees C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry I therefore call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally—Huw Irranca-Davies. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785861 252 Cy 261111-5 Motions to elect Members to committees I Motion NNDM9346 Huw Irranca-Davies To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Gareth Thomas (Reform UK) in place of Benjamin Hodge McKenna (Reform UK) as a member of the Health and Social Care Committee. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785862 253 Cy 261111-5 Motions to elect Members to committees I Motion NNDM9347 Huw Irranca-Davies To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Benjamin Hodge Mckenna (Reform UK) in place of Gareth Thomas (Reform UK) as a member of the Economy, Energy and Connectivity Committee. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785863 254 Cy 261111-5 Motions to elect Members to committees I Motion NNDM9353 Huw Irranca-Davies To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Vikki Howells (Welsh Labour) in place of Lynne Neagle (Welsh Labour) as an alternate member of the Standards of Conduct Committee. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785864 255 Cy 261111-5 Motions to elect Members to committees I Motions moved. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785843 256 Cy 2026-11-11T15:24:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6856&l=en 261111-5 Motions to elect Members to committees C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Formally. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785866 257 Cy 2026-11-11T15:24:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6857&l=en 261111-5 Motions to elect Members to committees C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. There are no objections. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. Thank you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785867 258 Cy 261111-5 Motions to elect Members to committees I Motions agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785870 259 Cy 2026-11-11T15:24:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6872&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry I'll move now to a motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026. I call on the Llywydd to move the motion. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785872 260 Cy 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 I Motion NDM9336 Huw Irranca-Davies To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026: 1. Agrees that the Standards of Conduct Committee carry out an inquiry into whether and, if so, how, a code of conduct for Members of the Senedd should apply to the conduct of a Member of the Senedd in relation to a period when the member was a candidate at a Senedd election (whether or not the member was holding office as a Member of the Senedd at the time). 2. Agrees that the Standards of Conduct Committee must complete a report of the inquiry and lay the report before the Senedd. 3. Notes that, in accordance with section 19(5) of the same Act, after the Committee has laid its report, the Welsh Ministers must lay before the Senedd a statement that sets out the Welsh Ministers’ response to the report. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785873 261 Cy 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 I Motion moved. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785875 262 En 2026-11-11T15:24:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6886&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion. Section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026, which was passed by the previous Senedd, required me to table a motion proposing that either an existing or a new committee of the Senedd carry out an inquiry into, in quotes, 'whether and, if so, how a code of conduct for Members of the Senedd should apply to the conduct of a Member of the Senedd in relation to a period when the member was a candidate at a Senedd election (whether or not the member was holding office as a Member of the Senedd at the time).' In taking forward my responsibilities under the Act, I have consulted with the Business Committee and also with the Standards of Conduct Committee, given the critical role that the committee has in the application and the ownership of this code of conduct for Members of the Senedd. Following that consultation, I and the Business Committee have determined that if such an inquiry is to be carried out, it should be undertaken by the Standards of Conduct Committee. Now, the Act does not specify a time frame within which such an inquiry must be conducted, and I am conscious that the committee already has a significant work programme. However, should the Senedd agree this motion to remit the inquiry to the Standards of Conduct Committee, I understand that the committee Chair anticipates that such an inquiry could begin in the spring of next year. So, in tabling the motion, I have completed my responsibilities under the Act. It is now for the Senedd to determine whether or not to pass the motion. Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785856 263 En 2026-11-11T15:26:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6996&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785857 264 En 2026-11-11T15:26:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6996&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785858 265 En 2026-11-11T15:26:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6996&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785831 266 En 2026-11-11T15:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6902&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785842 267 En 2026-11-11T15:26:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=6995&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 12156 12156 Huw Thomas https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156 Thomas, Huw Diolch, Lywydd. Welsh Labour will support this motion. I think it's increasingly clear from events this week that standards will be a recurring theme for this Senedd, and I think this is an important issue for us to consider. The motion before us does not seek to change the Members' code of conduct today, nor does it prejudge the outcome of any future debates. Rather, it asks the Standards of Conduct Committee to undertake a thorough inquiry into whether and, if so, how the code should apply to conduct that occurs during a period when an individual is standing as a candidate in a Senedd election. That's an important question for a modern Parliament to consider. Public confidence in democratic institutions depends not only on the conduct of elected representatives once they've taken office, but also on confidence in the integrity of the electoral process itself. At the same time, any proposal in this area must be carefully developed, evidence based and compatible with the principles of fairness and natural justice. For that reason, we believe it's right that the matter should be examined in detail by the committee before any conclusions are reached. If the motion is agreed and the Standards of Conduct Committee does indeed conduct an inquiry to extend the code of conduct, I very much hope it will examine comparable arrangements in Westminster and other legislatures. Recent elections in the UK and elsewhere have highlighted public concerns about standards, transparency and campaign conduct. While different jurisdictions have adopted different approaches, I think there's value in considering whether there are lessons that can be learned from those experiences when determining whether there is a case for change needed in Wales. It will also be important for the committee to closely examine where responsibilities should sit between electoral law and the Members' code of conduct, and how any overlap or duplication can be avoided. So, I'm happy to put my party's position on record. We look forward, I hope, to the committee's work, to the recommendations it makes in due course, and to the subsequent response from Welsh Government. Diolch yn fawr. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785859 268 En 2026-11-11T15:28:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7126&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 518 518 Lindsay Whittle https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=518 Whittle, Lindsay The inquiry proposed under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 will consider whether and, if so, how the code of conduct for Members of the Senedd should apply to Members' conduct during periods when they are candidates at a Senedd election. As the Llywydd has alluded, the committee already has a substantial work programme, much of which is associated with the Act. We are currently gathering evidence in order to draft recall guidance and are considering models for appointing lay members to the committee, which must be done by November 2027. We are also eager to progress our inquiry into lobbying, which has cross-party support in this Chamber from those of us present today. However, having considered the matter at our meeting on 12 October, the committee unanimously agreed with Llywydd's view that the committee, which has oversight of the code of conduct, is best placed to undertake this inquiry. I can confirm, subject to the Senedd agreeing this motion today, that the committee intends to begin work on this matter late in the spring term of 2027. Diolch yn fawr. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785868 269 En 2026-11-11T15:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7202&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785885 270 Cy 2026-11-11T15:30:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7223&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785876 271 Cy 2026-11-11T15:30:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7208&l=en 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785882 272 Cy 261111-6 5. Motion under section 19 of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Act 2026 I Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785883 273 Cy 2026-11-11T15:30:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7222&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry We will move now to item 6, Members legislative debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), planning framework for quarrying developments. I call on Kiera Marshall to move the motion. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785886 274 Cy 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments I Motion NDM9314 Kiera Marshall Supported by Alun Cox, Anthony Slaughter, Beca Brown, Becca Martin, Carrie Harper, Donna Cushing, Elwyn Vaughan, Elyn Stephens, Gwyn Williams, Huw Thomas, Jason O'Connell, Joe Martin, John Davies, Leticia Gonzalez, Lindsay Whittle, Lis McLean, Lyn Ackerman, Mair Rowlands, Marc Jones, Matthew Jones, Mike Hedges, Niamh Salkeld, Nick Carter, Paul Rock, Safa Elhassan, Sara Crowley, Sarah Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah Rees, Sera Evans, Vikki Howells, Zaynub Akbar To propose that the Senedd: 1. Notes a proposal for a Bill to require the Welsh Ministers to review and strengthen as necessary the planning framework relating to quarrying developments in Wales. 2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to: a) require a review of the Minerals Technical Advice Note 1: Aggregates (MTAN 1) published in 2004, and its effectiveness in protecting communities in close proximity to quarries; b) require the review to assess the adequacy of existing safeguards, including in relation to the environmental, biodiversity and public health impacts associated with quarrying and related activities in close proximity to settlements, having regard to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015; c) require specific consideration of increasing the buffer zone between settlements and all new and existing quarries; and d) require the Welsh Ministers to publish the conclusions of the review and proposals for strengthening planning protections. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785887 275 Cy 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments I Motion moved. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785888 276 En 2026-11-11T15:30:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7240&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12166 12166 Kiera Marshall https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 Marshall, Kiera As drought was announced across Wales this summer, residents in my constituency were facing a very different crisis. Following a planned blast at Taff's Well quarry, a wave of mud, water and debris cascaded down onto the village of Gwaelod-y-garth and 13 homes had to be evacuated. Families were displaced and homes were flooded with up to 5 ft of muddy water. I immediately travelled to the village with our local Plaid Cymru councillors to offer practical support and advice, and the devastation that I witnessed that evening, just three months after I was elected, will stay with me forever. In the village hall, I met a family who had just moved to Gwaelod-y-garth two weeks earlier. They were all in tears, visibly in shock, and they had no home insurance. They had just lost everything. On Heol Berry, the street that was worst affected, I spoke to a woman who had spent years raising concerns about the quarry. I'll never forget her sadness and her rage as she stood in her living room in front of me, surrounded by her ruined belongings. I won't forget the older couple that I met at 10 p.m. that evening, who were sat in their living room in ankle-deep water, in the cold, in candlelight with no electricity. In the aftermath of the flood, the field behind Heol Berry was littered with mud, debris and large rocks. I remember one resident turning to me and asking, 'What if children had been playing on that field?' The flood was devastating, but it could have been deadly. For residents in Gwaelod-y-garth, the nightmare has dragged on. A month after the blast, I requested a meeting with the quarry to get answers and a resident joined me. At that meeting, we learned that blasting was about to restart imminently, before the health and safety investigation had even been completed. The situation at Taff's Well quarry is unique and the fact that blasting was ever allowed there demonstrates to me that these quarry regulations are out of date. I'll ask you to take a moment to think about this setting, because Gwaelod-y-garth sits at the bottom of a mountain, and within that mountain is this big old iron mine and these massive underground lakes. Above that iron mine is a quarry that uses explosives. Residents in Gwaelod-y-Garth are now living in fear because they live below this huge body of water above their village, which is now a known risk. They're worried about what will happen when the blasting restarts, and they have no power to stop it. Since then, residents, the quarry, public bodies and elected representatives have been involved in discussions to delay blasting and improve communication. I want to pay tribute to the residents who led these calls through the group Stronger Together Lesser Garth. You have shown extraordinary organisation, determination and resilience in ensuring you get the answers you deserve. It's been an honour to work alongside you all. Some of the members are here today watching in the gallery. I also want to recognise all the residents of Heol Berry and the wider village of Gwaelod-y-garth, the emergency services, the council staff, councillors, external organisations, and everyone who supported the village in their time of need. It's now on us, as Members of the Senedd, to ensure this doesn't happen again anywhere. What happened in Gwaelod-y-garth raises serious questions about whether our planning framework is fit for purpose. I believe that quarry blasting rules must now be urgently reviewed to protect communities across Wales, which is why I've brought this debate forward today. It calls on the Welsh Government to review and strengthen the planning framework relating to quarrying in Wales, including the effectiveness of minerals technical advice note 1 in protecting communities living close to quarries. MTAN 1 hasn't been updated since 2004. I would have been six years old in 2004. It is completely out of date and it's time for a review. There are three things I'd ask this review to address. First, the buffer zone between homes and quarry blasting. The current 200m distance for blasting is very close. To put that into perspective, it's roughly the distance to walk from the Senedd to the Wales Millennium Centre. Well before this flood even happened, constituents of mine in Gwaelod-y-garth and in Creigiau had been dealing with the impacts of living close to quarries. We have to ask ourselves if that 200m is enough to protect them. Second, planning decisions should take into account the geography and geology of each place, the topography, the elevation, and the history. Because a village underneath a mountain containing old iron mines and underground lakes cannot be treated as though it were any other location. The review should establish what safeguards can ensure that those factors are properly considered in our planning framework.  Third, the review should consider the environmental and public health impacts of quarrying. Here I'd like to acknowledge the hard work of my fellow colleague and Senedd Member Heledd Fychan, who campaigned tirelessly for her constituents on this issue in the previous Senedd.  I'd also like to recognise the impact and role that quarries do play across Wales, providing thousands of jobs, supporting the construction industry, and supporting our economy. This debate isn't about opposing quarrying; it's about ensuring that industry operates safely alongside the communities that have to live with it. What happened in my constituency this summer has exposed serious flaws in our planning system, which we must learn from and ensure that communities are better protected. Diolch.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785808 277 En 2026-11-11T15:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7502&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785878 278 En 2026-11-11T15:35:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7550&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 5107 5107 Vikki Howells https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107 Howells, Vikki My sincere thanks to Kiera for bringing this important proposal forward today. I'm speaking on behalf of the Welsh Labour group as their spokesperson on planning, and we are very supportive of the motion before us. But I also want to speak based on the 10 years plus that I have spent representing the people of Glyncoch in this Siambr. That's my personal reason for having signed up to be a supporter of the motion before us today. For Members who may be unaware, the village of Glyncoch is adjacent to the Craig-yr-Hesg quarry, which has been producing sandstone for infrastructural use since the 1880s. This has impacted significantly on the lives of people living in Glyncoch. Although planning regulations identify that buffer of 200m as being a suitable minimum distance between quarries and residential areas, that particular quarry has crept closer and closer to people's homes. The latest expansion granted in 2022 brought the working area within 142m of many houses, and just 109m from the nearest property. There was even a primary school, at that point, just 164m away.  Members may have seen the recent BBC news item where Glyncoch residents spoke of their homes shaking when blasting takes place, with pictures falling off walls and children being frightened. Dust is also a major issue, particularly for people with chronic lung conditions, and a real fear of small particulate matter. It's no wonder that residents are having problems there retaining the value of their homes and selling their homes.  When the last proposal to expand the quarry came forward, I joined residents, our local councillor Doug Williams, Rhondda Cynon Taf's planning committee, and others, to oppose it. The decision to proceed with such a seemingly ineffective buffer zone staggered us all. In opposing that expansion, I was also pleased to work with our current Trefnydd, and I think that the campaign is a good example of cross-party working, which I hope that we can maintain.  Turning to the proposal before us today, I would welcome the Bill proposed to safeguard our communities, and I welcome the Member's approach to MTAN 1 and to any buffer zone. We need a system that is both robust and, as Kiera has argued, flexible enough to deliver the outcomes that we need and ensure that each individual community is at the heart of that decision-making process.  To refer again to Craig-yr-Hesg, even though the planning regulations recommend a 200m buffer zone in principle, if this is not adhered to in practice, it is of little benefit to anyone. Even if the Welsh Government can't or won't progress a Bill—and I really hope they do—I hope that reviewing MTAN 1 is something that this Welsh Government can take up.  We all accept that any legislation or guidance needs periodic review to ensure that it is truly fit for purpose. That's especially the case here when the wider framework has evolved considerably. I think that the Member's particular reference to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is key. Any review should also include a focus on environmental and biodiversity impacts. Diolch.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785897 279 En 2026-11-11T15:39:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7754&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet I bring a slightly different angle to this. It is important, when considering any legislative frameworks, that we recognise both our responsibility to protect communities living near quarry sites—those sites have been there for many, many years, and, in fact, much of the housing around was created for workers to attend those quarries—and the significant economic, environmental and social contribution that the quarrying industry makes to Wales. We must not overlook the positive impact that quarrying has on both our local and national economies.  I understand the issues that have been raised here today. It's fair to say that, during the summer, we had some concerns about dust, because it was such a hot, dry summer, and so people felt there was more dust on their cars, and so on. But these very houses were built for the quarry industry that exists in Penmaenmawr. The sector overall contributes £700 million to the Welsh economy, and it employs 3,800 people—people travelling in, often, from rural areas. Aggregates are a vital raw material used in construction, with Welsh quarried materials helping to build homes, schools and hospitals across the country. We need to support this industry. As I've mentioned, I'm really proud of Penmaenmawr quarry, but I get it when the residents are feeling unhappy. They have a community liaison group, and I went forward this year, in the summer, and met with them at the quarry. I said, 'When's your next meeting? You really need to—.' And that's all been solved now. What had happened there was they were starting to use more trains, to move their product out by train, which is what we want to encourage as well. They've had a new part put in now; they were using a temporary bit. But the point is the quarry worked with the community. They experienced the day-to-day impacts of quarry operations, and the residents expect some noise, some dust and some vehicle movement. We've got to strike the right balance, haven't we? The buffer zone that currently stands is 200m, and, understandably, anything that would bring that closer would worry me. However, it's also important to recognise that quarry operators are aware of these concerns and have responsibilities to monitor and manage dust emissions. Companies such as Heidelberg Materials, who operate Penmaenmawr quarry, do actively monitor dust levels. They take measures regularly to minimise the amount of dust generated. They've spent money recently on a water bowser to spray water across the site. They don't want to annoy those residents. Will the Cabinet Minister commit to working with our quarry industry and operators? Maybe there's a way around this, where there might have to be some regulations brought in, but certainly nothing that would impinge and cause these quarries to close. We don't want to be in a situation where we're importing these kinds of materials. Penmaenmawr quarry has one of the seams in Wales that's the hardest rock in the world. Thank you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785889 280 En 2026-11-11T15:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7802&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785917 281 Cy 2026-11-11T15:42:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7981&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Thank you to Kiera for bringing forward such an important debate. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785919 282 En 2026-11-11T15:43:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=7986&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Many Members will remember the long-running campaign—and thank you to Vikki for mentioning it—regarding the Craig-yr-Hesg quarry in Glyncoch, led by local residents and community campaigners and championed by my colleague Heledd Fychan during the last Senedd term. Craig-yr-Hesg is a powerful example of why MTAN 1 is no longer fit for purpose. It is a case that shows just how harsh the consequences of the current guidance can be for local communities. For the people of Glyncoch, those consequences are felt every day in their homes, on their streets and in their quality of life. When planning permission was originally granted, local people were told that extraction of mineral operations at the site would end on 31 December 2022, followed by restoration and aftercare work. That was the promise that was made to the community, but it was a promise that was broken. Instead, applications were submitted to extend both the area being quarried and the life of the quarry itself. More than 400 objections were logged by local residents, Pontypridd Town Council and elected representatives. The arguments were so compelling that Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council planning committee rejected both applications because of concerns about the impact of the blasting on people's health and well-being. For a while, it looked as though the people of Glyncoch had done everything that had been asked of them: they'd organised, campaigned, attended meetings, submitted objections, and they made their case. But then came the appeal, and, ultimately, the decision to allow the quarry to continue. Local people were left asking why their concerns and lived experience were ignored. They brought photographs showing cracks appearing in walls. They spoke about the shock of blasting rattling their homes. They described dust settling on cars, windows and garden furniture. They spoke about the constant movement of heavy vehicles through the village and the loss of green space that had been part of this community life for years. They were not speaking as experts, they were speaking as people who lived there. Yet, again and again, they found themselves up against reports, consultants and legal arguments that cost more than most families could ever afford to spend. This is what troubles me most about the current system: when the ability to be heard depends on who can afford the most expensive legal team, communities start the process at a disadvantage, before a single argument has ever been made. People should not have to commission their own experts to prove what they experience every day in the place they call home. I spoke to somebody this morning who said there was even dust on someone's mantelpiece. For too long, our natural resources have been exploited while communities have been expected to bear the consequences. For too long, people have felt ignored. Enough is enough. Too many communities have felt voiceless and powerless for so long. We owe it to them to have a planning system that works with them and not against them. And I'd like to put on record, actually, that today we've only got four of us out of six, and we should have six debating such important things in our own communities. And we also lost a question for Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr earlier as well about skilled workers. So, I would like that on the record, that that is absolutely not good enough for my constituents, whoever they voted for in May. That's not good enough. That is why I'm going to support this motion. Diolch yn fawr. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785890 283 En 2026-11-11T15:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8102&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785901 284 En 2026-11-11T15:46:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8180&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12156 12156 Huw Thomas https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156 Thomas, Huw I thank Kiera Marshall for bringing forward this proposal. I was pleased to add my name to it as a supporter. On 30 July, as we've heard, an ordinary afternoon in Gwaelod-y-garth changed within moments. That blast at Taff's Well quarry displaced a substantial volume of water from the historic mine workings. A torrent of water, mud and debris surged into the village. Residents watched it force its way into their homes. Neighbours and emergency services helped people to safety, while families were forced to leave homes around which they had built their lives. And months later, residents are still living with the consequences. Floors, walls and possessions can eventually be replaced, but restoring a sense of safety is much harder. Residents have told us about the anxiety caused by heavy rainfall, including what we saw a few weeks ago, the prospect of further blasting, and the continuing wait for answers. A home should be the place where people feel safest. For many in Gwaelod-y-garth, that security was taken from them on 30 July. We recognise their trauma. I'd like to pay tribute to those residents, and it's great to see so many familiar faces in the public gallery. I'd like to credit them for their resilience, their dignity and the courage they've shown, on the day itself and in the weeks and months afterwards. It's been a pleasure to get to know you, even in these difficult circumstances. Recovery cannot be measured only by the mud cleared and the buildings repaired, it must also mean practical support, clear answers, open communication and confidence that every lesson will be learnt. Our support for the community must continue for as long as it's needed. Since the incident, I've met: affected residents; the Stronger Together Lesser Garth group; Breedon, the quarry owner; the Health and Safety Executive; and Natural Resources Wales. It's been great to work closely with Kiera and her office and also work closely with Alex Barros-Curtis MP, across party lines. This proposal is a proportionate and even-handed one. It requires Welsh Government to examine the evidence, consider whether existing protections remain adequate, and publish its findings. But it also does not assume that a framework written more than two decades ago remains sufficient. MTAN 1 was published in 2004—I won't tell you how old I was—before the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 came into effect. So, it's reasonable, I think, to assess it against current evidence and our present understanding on environmental risk, public health and community well-being. The review, yes, should consider buffer zones, but must also look beyond distance, at environmental and biodiversity impacts, older permissions and successive variations, and how information is communicated to neighbouring communities. The quarrying industry will rightly contribute evidence about local conditions and the supply of essential materials. That evidence, of course, should be carefully considered. I acknowledge the point made by Janet Finch-Saunders. I'm the grandson of a slate quarryman, my father grew up in a house that was literally the distance across this Chamber from a quarry boundary. But the central test now must surely be whether the planning framework provides communities living alongside these sites with adequate protection. Alex Barros-Curtis in Westminster has proposed considering a transparent risk-rating framework for quarries near legacy mine infrastructure. The coal tip system cannot just be copied, but I think its principles of transparency, accountability and accessible public information should inform this work. Residents are asking for evidence, openness and confidence that lessons will be learnt. The health and safety investigation must establish what happened on 30 July. This motion addresses our next responsibility, ensuring that the planning framework offers communities the strongest protection justified by the evidence. I'm pleased to support it. Diolch yn fawr. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785918 285 En 2026-11-11T15:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8402&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785921 286 Cy 2026-11-11T15:50:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8433&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry Finally, Lis McLean. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785923 287 Cy 2026-11-11T15:50:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8436&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you, Llywydd. We need to review MTAN 1 as a matter of urgency. The current planning framework doesn't safeguard people's homes from the impacts of quarrying and blasting. Before the election, I went out with Heledd Fychan to look at Craig-yr-Hesg, and I was shocked to see how close that quarry was to the homes; it really struck me. And I really felt at that time—how can people live with this within their community? It was that striking. In canvassing on the estate, Heledd was invited into people's homes to see the latest damage that had occurred to their homes, because they do suffer so much damage, and people were also talking about their health as we spoke to them. It really was striking, and I felt, what's right about expecting communities to live under these conditions? Why can quarries operate so close to people's homes, and why should residents have to suffer the risks to their health and safety? That's how I felt at the time. So, MTAN 1—. This should be a minimum distance, this 200m buffer zone. It is certainly less than that. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785925 288 En 2026-11-11T15:52:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8522&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis I can tell you that—I was there. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785927 289 Cy 2026-11-11T15:52:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8524&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis I know. In considering an extension to Craig-yr-Hesg quarry, Rhondda Cynon Taf council raised questions about the operations within 200m of sensitive development, the need for the proposed number of rocks and whether it could be delivered from elsewhere. Despite these concerns, consent was given for the extension of the quarry. Residents have described their homes shaking, cracks appearing and concerns about the foundations. But it's difficult to prove that a particular blast caused particular damage. At the moment, the burden is on home owners to prove that the damage was caused by the blasting after it's happened, when it's too late. The planning system should establish the evidence beforehand. Therefore, a revised MTAN 1 should make it a requirement to hold independent structural reviews; to ensure independent monitoring of tremors, with results published transparently and trigger levels for investigating; to ensure that residents get professional free assessments and remedial work or the prevention of work when unexpected cracks are discovered; and to designate buffer zones on the basis of risk, taking into account geology, blasting and topography. The Welsh Government has focused on planning conditions, monitoring and enforcement, but that poses the question whether the conditions were breached once the damage had been done. Communities are asking a more important question: were the safeguarding measures adequate in the first instance? If the current rules don't work for our communities, then we need to listen to those communities and change the system. We are here to serve the people, not for them to serve us. Everyone has a right to feel safe in their home. We must prioritise health, safety and the well-being of our communities over commercial profits, and that is why I'm supporting this motion. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785936 290 Cy 2026-11-11T15:54:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8660&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning, Siân Gwenllian. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785937 291 Cy 2026-11-11T15:54:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8666&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd, and thank you to Kiera Marshall for introducing this legislative proposal, and to the other Members who have spoken so passionately today. First of all, I'd like to express my sympathy with the residents who were affected by the flooding incident this summer at Taff's Well quarry. Thank you for coming to the Senedd today to listen to this debate. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has supported and is supporting the community in Gwaelod-y-garth—Kiera, certainly, but also other local Members, councillors, the local authority, the agencies and the other services as well. And I understand that investigations are ongoing, and we must let them run their course.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785906 292 Cy 2026-11-11T15:55:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=8726&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I must also remind Members that I cannot talk about specific sites, as doing so could prejudice the role of Welsh Ministers should a case come before them later, for example in the form of an appeal. But I can address the policy principles and our aspirations as a Government to promote sustainable development. I do intend to support this motion, but I wish to make it clear that there is no need for a Bill to review MTAN 1 or, indeed, to review policy more widely. Planning policy is based on evidence and is regularly reviewed, and the emphasis is more local than legislation could be. Local policy can be more relevant to the area and sensitive, reflecting local circumstances. It can be reactive to change and new evidence in a way that legislation is not.  'Planning Policy Wales' and MTAN 1 are the main sources of national planning policy, and they provide comprehensive and robust guidance on managing the impacts of quarrying. It's important to recognise that a new policy cannot be applied retrospectively to developments that are already operational and permitted. However, it may apply to proposals for new quarries or extensions to quarries. We will all appreciate that minerals are essential for our continued economic development. Quarries play a vital role in supporting the construction sector in Wales, and unlike other sectors, it's only where relevant minerals are to be found in the earth that mineral development can occur. That is stating the obvious, perhaps, but, of course, this can create tension, sometimes in terms of location and the use of nearby land. Our role as a Government is to protect communities while enabling the extraction of the raw materials that Wales needs for our homes, our schools and our infrastructure. The sustainable supply of minerals and aggregates is essential to support economic development in Wales. The role of the planning system is to balance society's need for minerals with the protection of community amenity and well-being. I appreciate that these issues are often very controversial, but they're also very local. That is why they can be best dealt with locally through appropriate policies in local development plans, which can take local circumstances into account. And as we move forward, as I've committed to do today, in reviewing our policy on quarries, we must be aware of the Welsh Government's commitment to provide 20,000 new social homes. We must ensure that changes to buffer zones don't create unintended consequences where new social homes are desperately needed. That will mean gathering evidence and studying potential impacts carefully. However, this challenge doesn't mean that we can't move forward. Therefore, I commit today to explore the issues raised in the legislative proposal and the issues raised today by Members. I will be asking my officials to undertake a call for evidence to examine this matter in more detail, to identify whether there are changes that should be made to MTAN 1, and therefore I encourage you all in the Chamber today to contribute to this call, although I recognise, of course, that one party hasn't bothered to come to listen to this important debate today. That exercise, the call for evidence, could inform changes to quarrying policy without the need for primary legislation, recognising the objectives of this Government and myself as Cabinet Minister with responsibility for planning, namely to protect communities but to enable sustainable development. I thank Kiera once more for bringing forward this motion and raising the issues in the Chamber today, and thank you all for your time. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785904 293 Cy 2026-11-11T16:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9002&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785905 294 Cy 2026-11-11T16:00:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9014&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry Thank you, Cabinet Minister. I call on Kiera Marshall to reply to the debate. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785940 295 Cy 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments I The Llywydd (Huw Irranca-Davies) took the Chair. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785907 296 En 2026-11-11T16:00:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9022&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 12166 12166 Kiera Marshall https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 Marshall, Kiera Diolch. I'd like to thank the Minister first for supporting the review and allowing us to have this opportunity to learn from the tragic events that did happen in Gwaelod-y-garth this summer and so we can ensure that no community in Wales is subject to devastation like that again, and I'm glad this doesn't need legislation to take place as well, and hopefully that allows us to look at it quicker. I'd also like to thank all the Members today for their contributions. Vikki, thank you for your support and for raising Glyncoch, which shows that this isn't just an isolated issue in any one constituency. Janet, as well, I'd like to echo the things you said about the positive contributions that quarries can play and making sure we get that balance right between the realities of living by a quarry, but also the threats to public safety that we've seen this summer. Sara, thank you again for detailing how this review could support your constituents and empower our communities, and Lis as well for bringing up public health issues and how that burden of evidence doesn't sit fairly on communities currently. And Huw as well—thank you for all of your work in the constituency, and, as you said, the work we've done across party as well. The impact of this flood is not over. Residents who were evacuated are still waiting to move into their homes—people sitting in the gallery today. When I visited last week, those homes were still empty and work hadn't even begun yet. I'd make a plea now on the record to all the insurance companies involved to please do your job, move things forward and help people get back into their homes as soon as possible. What has happened to the community of Gwaelod-y-garth has been devastating, and I really hope through this review we can ensure that this is never allowed to happen again. And I'd like to finish with the words of three residents, to remind us why action is so urgent. Debi Bode: 'If the quarry starts blasting again, I will be terrified. I want the village to be safe. I want our houses to be safe.' Kevin Duncan: 'Until I have clear answers from the quarry, I will not sleep at night, and the stress and anxiety I feel will get worse and worse.' And Keith Beynon: 'Home is what you make it, and after 40 years it was gone within an hour.' Behind this motion are people who have lost their homes, their sense of security and their peace of mind. They deserve answers, they deserve to feel safe in their own village, and we must do everything we can to ensure this never happens again. So, I would urge all Members to be supporting this motion today. Diolch yn fawr. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785909 297 Cy 2026-11-11T16:02:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9157&l=en 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785910 298 Cy 261111-7 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Planning framework for quarrying developments I Voting deferred until voting time. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785912 299 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lynne Neagle, and amendment 2 in the name of Heledd Fychan. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785913 300 Cy 2026-11-11T16:02:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9172&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We will now move to item 7, the Welsh Conservatives debate on a Wales COVID-19 inquiry. I call on Darren Millar to move the motion. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785914 301 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I Motion NDM9345 Paul Davies To propose that the Senedd: 1. Believes that the people of Wales deserve a full, independent, and transparent investigation into the decision made during the Covid-19 pandemic. 2. Notes that the independent, judge-led Scottish COVID-19 Inquiry was formally established in February 2022. 3. Calls on the Welsh Government to: a) establish a statutory judge-led public inquiry, with powers to compel witnesses, into the handling of the Covid-19 pandemic in Wales; and b) publish all findings and recommendations in full. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785915 302 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I Motion moved. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785916 303 En 2026-11-11T16:03:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9188&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 171 171 Darren Millar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Leader of the Welsh Conservatives Millar, Darren Diolch, Lywydd. I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies. I want to begin by expressing my disappointment that this debate is being answered by the Welsh Government's Cabinet Minister for government effectiveness rather than the Cabinet Minister for health. After all, this is a debate about the handling of the greatest health crisis in living memory. But of course we shouldn't be surprised, should we? Because, Llywydd, I recently came across a very powerful speech. In fact, I recall listening to it in this very Senedd Chamber. It was a speech that made the case, very powerfully if I may say so, for a full and independent Wales-specific COVID inquiry. Speaking of the UK COVID-19 inquiry, the person making the speech said, and I quote, 'it has been apparent for some time that the scope of the UK inquiry is simply insufficient to cover every element of how the pandemic was handled in Wales'. And the speaker continued: 'Only a full inquiry for Wales can achieve this, and it is both a democratic and a moral imperative'— let me repeat that— 'it is both a democratic and a moral imperative', said the speaker, 'that the Welsh Government heeds the call in today's motion.' Strong words, Llywydd, and I agree with every single one of them. And I was struck by another passage in which the speaker referred to the then Welsh Government's position. It is 'completely hypocritical', said the speaker, 'to insist on diverging from UK policy to strike a tailored approach to Wales on the one hand'— this of course was in regard to COVID restrictions and other decisions— 'while ducking tailored scrutiny for the consequences of those actions on the other.' I have to say, Llywydd, I couldn't have put it better myself. So, who was this passionate advocate for a full Welsh COVID inquiry? Well, of course, it was none other than Mabon ap Gwynfor, the Welsh Government's current Cabinet Minister for health, the very person who, today, is seeking to dodge scrutiny by not participating himself in answering and responding to this debate on behalf of the Government. I'm sure, however—. I'm happy to take an intervention if you want to intervene. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785920 304 En 2026-11-11T16:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9302&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785928 305 En 2026-11-11T16:05:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9339&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 269 269 Mabon ap Gwynfor https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=269 ap Gwynfor, Mabon I didn't offer. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785929 306 En 2026-11-11T16:05:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9340&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 171 171 Darren Millar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Millar, Darren No, I just saw you shaking your head. I'm sure, then, you won't mind me quoting a little bit more of your speeches, because it's important that we get these on the record. One of the other things you said in the past, Mabon, is that: 'The Scottish Government...recognised the potential for the UK inquiry to overlook devolved matters early on, and therefore put the interests of the public firmly before their own by establishing the Scottish COVID-19 inquiry.' And you described that as this. You said: 'This is what proper accountability and responsible governance looks like.' I agree with you, because this debate should not be about politics. It's about people. And I want to acknowledge the members of the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group, many of whom are sat in our gallery here today. Others are watching proceedings from elsewhere. These are the families who lost loved ones. They have campaigned tirelessly for answers, and they deserve our utmost respect and our support. And the promises made to them, the very promises that you, Mabon ap Gwynfor, and others on the front bench of the Government made, must be fulfilled by those who are now in a position to deliver them. Two years and eight months ago, Mabon ap Gwynfor spoke directly about them. He said, and I quote: 'At this point I'd like to pay tribute to the tireless campaigning of the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group.' He went on: 'they have been clear it'— the UK inquiry— 'cannot give them the answers nor the closure that they have been seeking for several years. The time to correct this injustice is long overdue.' Llywydd, those were the words of the now Cabinet Minister for health. They were not my words. They were not the words of anybody on the Conservative benches. They were the words of the man who is now responsible for health and care in Wales. And yet today, instead of that full independent inquiry that he advocated for, along with his colleagues who are now filling the Government benches, instead of the inquiry that he and they demanded from others, that he promised to the grieving families, all his Government has actually offered is a review—a review without the statutory powers to compel witnesses to give evidence, a review that is focused on whether Wales is better prepared for the next pandemic, rather than fully investigating the decisions made during the last one. So, what has changed? Well, the suffering of the bereaved families hasn't changed. It continues. Their unanswered questions haven't changed. They continue. The need for accountability hasn't changed. It continues. The only thing that has changed is that Plaid Cymru is now in Government. And in February 2024, Mabon ap Gwynfor was sitting on the opposition benches demanding an inquiry, but, in May of this year, when Plaid Cymru won the votes that they needed to be in a position to form a Government—. You've secured those votes and taken office, and that full inquiry has now been replaced by a review. I don't know how any of you on those benches can look bereaved families in the eye and explain yourselves. You can't, can you? How can you reconcile the passionate speeches that some of you delivered in this Chamber when in opposition with what you're doing now in Government? You can't. And why should families accept less accountability simply because you've changed your position and sides in this Chamber, going from opposition into Government? They shouldn't have to accept that. And that's why we believe there still needs to be a COVID-19 inquiry in Wales. And let me turn to the Labour Party's amendment. I have to say, I fully agree with what it says when it says that Ministers should be referred to the independent adviser on ministerial standards to determine whether they're in breach of the ministerial code, because, of course, we know that the things that they're doing now are completely at odds with the commitments that they made before the election. But I cannot vote for your amendment in good conscience, because voting for it would delete the whole of the purpose of this debate, which is to demand the inquiry that this party promised before it got into Government. Voting for a 'delete all' amendment will absolve Plaid Cymru and the Government of the need to establish the inquiry that they promised. And that's why I urge you to consider your position as Labour Party Members today. Support our motion. We know and understand and respect that you have a different position than my party on whether there needs to be an inquiry, but none of us want to see the Government dodging its responsibility to do what it promised people before the election. And that's what this debate is absolutely all about. And Llywydd, if I may, I want to finish where I began, with the words of the Welsh Government's health Minister, because he concluded his speech on this very subject in the past by saying this, and I quote: 'We owe it to the people of Wales, and especially those who lost loved ones, to reflect on the legacy of the pandemic openly and honestly through a full independent inquiry in Wales. That is why I urge Members to support this motion.' Well, Llywydd, they were his words. He's now the health Minister; he has the opportunity to deliver what he demanded of others when he was in opposition, and today I call on him and all of the people on the Government benches to honour their words, honour their promises to bereaved families, and establish the full and independent Welsh COVID inquiry that he himself said was a 'democratic and a moral imperative'. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785924 307 En 2026-11-11T16:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9602&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785932 308 Cy 2026-11-11T16:12:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9745&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I now call on Ken Skates to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785933 309 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I Amendment 1—Lynne Neagle Delete all and replace with: To propose that the Senedd: 1. Notes that Welsh Government Ministers, in their previous capacity as opposition spokespeople, consistently promised Covid bereaved families a full Covid-19 inquiry for Wales that would require witnesses to attend, including comments made in the Senedd on 16 July 2025 by the current Cabinet Minister for Health and Care calling for a Wales-specific public inquiry, modelled on Scotland’s judge-led inquiry. 2. Notes that on 3 November 2026 those Ministers instead announced a review, without the power to compel witnesses to attend, rather than a statutory public inquiry. 3. Calls on the First Minister to refer to the Independent Adviser on Ministerial Standards the question of whether Ministers have breached the Ministerial Code by misrepresenting commitments made prior to the election to Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785934 310 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I Amendment 1 moved. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785935 311 En 2026-11-11T16:12:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9759&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 267 267 Ken Skates https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=267 Skates, Ken Diolch, Llywydd, and I move the amendment tabled in the name of my colleague, Lynne Neagle. Bereaved families deserve answers. There are many who have suffered terrible trauma, and I can assure them that I know their pain. They deserve clarity about how lessons are being learnt for the future. And they deserve the assurance that those engaging with them do so openly, honestly and in good faith. It's clear from the response of the bereaved families for justice that many do not believe they received that from Plaid Cymru. And that is why today's debate matters. Llywydd, for years, Plaid Cymru politicians, now Ministers, argued for a Wales-specific statutory inquiry. They repeatedly called for one publicly. They assured bereaved families that they had their full support for such an inquiry. Our amendment reflects that reality. The current Cabinet Minister for Health and Care himself, as we have heard, called for a Wales-specific public inquiry, modelled on Scotland's judge-led inquiry, in July last year. And on the same day, the current Trefnydd, Chief Whip and Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport tweeted that she was proud to sign a pledge supporting a Wales-specific statutory inquiry. Yet now, in Government, they have announced not a statutory inquiry, but a review. The bereaved families themselves say that they were repeatedly reassured that Plaid Cymru remained committed to delivering what they had campaigned for. We've all seen the private messages and the tweets from senior figures now in Government. The bereaved families for justice regret that it's not merely a matter of semantics. They say they were given assurances that there would be no retreat from previous commitments. If Plaid Cymru had changed their minds, they should have said so. If Plaid politicians had reached a different conclusion in Government, they should have explained why, earlier, especially to bereaved families. What has caused such anger is not simply the policy outcome, but the belief among many families that they were not given the respect they deserved. That's why this issue goes beyond the question of whether there should be an inquiry or a review. It's about trust, it's about honesty in public life and it's about whether people who suffered unimaginable loss were treated with the openness, respect and integrity they deserved. Why were families left with the impression that they would still receive the inquiry they had spent years campaigning for? Were bereaved families given an accurate explanation of what Ministers actually intended to deliver? Llywydd, we on this side of the Chamber believe that these questions deserve to be independently investigated. That's why we're calling on the First Minister to refer the matter to the Independent Adviser on Ministerial Standards (Wales), so that an independent judgment can be reached on whether commitments made to bereaved families were represented appropriately. I'd just like to say this about a previous public inquiry that heard horrific accounts of crimes against children. It was the north Wales child abuse scandal. As a journalist at the time that this inquiry took place, I recall going to see my editor-in-chief, the late Reg Herbert, and speaking with him about the need to ensure that we could not stop seeking answers and justice, and that if further work was required at the end of the inquiry, then that further work should be undertaken. What if powerful people back then had promised the victims of child abuse an inquiry and then only delivered a review? This is a question that I keep asking myself. It would have been wholly unjust. We do need to await the completion of the full UK inquiry. And, importantly, we do need to await all Government responses to all module recommendations. Because that, in turn, would determine the scope of an inquiry. An inquiry should not just be about what happened, when and to whom; it should also be about how Governments in the future are planning to learn the lessons and implement them, and, crucially, why any recommendations might be rejected. We in Welsh Labour want to see work done thoroughly, completely and in the correct order, and we will support a further inquiry; one that represents what I have outlined. Not just evidence taken in regard to gaps, but also the need to make sure that Government responses are reflected. As for the Conservatives, I would urge you to vote for our amendment today. As I have said, in the right circumstances, we will support a further COVID inquiry, but it must be based on the outcome of the UK COVID inquiry. Families' voices must be heard, their experiences must be respected and their concerns must be taken seriously. Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785926 312 En 2026-11-11T16:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=9902&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785939 313 En 2026-11-11T16:18:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10106&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah I just want to provide a trigger warning that my contribution does reference baby loss. I chose to speak in this debate because I too am someone who experienced a bereavement during COVID, so I want to take this chance to say a few words about my grandfather. He was a true cockney, from an immigrant family who moved to London and were connected to the pearlies—a movement of working-class people connected to community pride, generosity and charitable giving. He taught me not only a love for Doris Day films, but that, in life, even if we do have little, we share it with those in need. And, like my bampy, every person who died during COVID are more than statistics, they are our loved ones. He wanted a full cockney funeral, but that was not possible. His funeral consisted of me, my parents and my siblings. None of the aunts and uncles who knew him best, none of his church family, nor my own family. I left my husband and children at home, unable to say goodbye to him because we followed the rules. He died in May 2020. At that exact time, Conservative Prime Minister Boris Johnson was quaffing cheese and wine in his garden, acting as if he was above the rest of us. Those who have been bereaved want answers, but more than that, we need accountability. My grandfather was suffering from dementia and he was being cared for in a nursing home. When I wasn't able to hold his hand, his care workers did. I rue the day that I attempted to teach him to use a mobile phone. I wasn't successful, but his carers did succeed. They helped him to FaceTime us, so that in those lockdown days, we got to see his face and hear his voice before he died. Those essential workers took care of our most vulnerable people, our most precious family members. As social care is a devolved responsibility, we in Wales must gain a true understanding of the impact of COVID on those workers too. I've also been reminded, thinking for this debate, of the Thursday evenings when people took to their doorsteps to bang their pots and pans and make noise for essential workers. For me, that banging called the start of my volunteer shift on a legal phone line for pregnant women whose employers were not supporting them to stay safe at work. I spoke to far too many women working in care, women who'd contracted COVID whilst undertaking their job, when they should have been protected in law. No worker, no expectant family should have faced that. One particular person I want to pay tribute to is Mary Agyeiwaa Agyapong, a pregnant nurse, originally from Ghana, who felt pressured to work, despite being concerned for her health. Mary died shortly after the delivery of her baby. She had tested positive for COVID-19 at 35 weeks pregnant. Our NHS and social care workers who made the UK their home, just like Mary, we wouldn't have got through COVID without them. And even now, this is a system that would collapse without migrant workers. Another group that I worked with in lockdown was the But Not Maternity campaigners, and I will always remember one woman who contacted me during that campaign. It was early in the morning and my daughter had asked if we could get up and watch a sunrise, so I couldn't say 'no'. But I had picked up this message at 5 a.m. and this woman had told me how she had experienced a neonatal death. She was awake, she couldn't sleep because she was lying alone in hospital awaiting surgery. Her husband couldn't be with her because the rules had blocked them from being together. He was breaking his heart at home when all they wanted was to be together. At that time, the rules were changing. Small groups could gather in pubs, so that they could share a pint and keep our economy going. But the true work of our economy, when life is being brought into the world to drive our future forward, that was being experienced alone. And it wasn't just at birth. I worked with dads and non-birthing parents who were alone too. They weren't able to see the birth of their own children. So many of them got in touch saying that they missed those important moments. And the mental health strain that was placed on those families hasn't gone away. I want to thank the now First Minister, who was shadow health Minister at the time, who supported me in that work with dads, to talk about their mental health. Because then, as now, Rhun was listening and acting. It feels today that this Siambr has become a glasshouse. Ken Skates didn't appear at the UK inquiry, despite having been called to give evidence. Other Welsh Labour Ministers didn't give credence to that UK inquiry. And that's what our review will do. We want to hear from these people. Paul Davies resigned as leader of the Welsh Conservative group after drinking in a group environment in this Senedd. Whilst he didn't break any rules, I'm sure— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785938 314 En 2026-11-11T16:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10202&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785963 315 Cy 2026-11-11T16:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10502&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785949 316 En 2026-11-11T16:23:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10441&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Could I ask the Member, please, to stick to the terms of the debate? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785950 317 En 2026-11-11T16:24:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10446&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thank you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785986 318 En 2026-11-11T16:24:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10446&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 171 171 Darren Millar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Millar, Darren Can I clarify the ruling on that—[Inaudible.] 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785951 319 En 2026-11-11T16:24:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10449&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Irranca-Davies, Huw Yes. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785953 320 En 2026-11-11T16:24:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10451&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah But what I would like to say is I'm sure he broke his commitment to uphold the Nolan principles of public life: honesty, integrity and leadership. I also have three other points to remind the Conservatives: Barnard castle—[Interruption.] 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785956 321 En 2026-11-11T16:24:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10463&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet No, we do not want—. The group do not want this political football. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785958 322 En 2026-11-11T16:24:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10466&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw With apologies to the Member, we are well over time and we've got lots of speakers, as well, who want to contribute to the debate. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785960 323 En 2026-11-11T16:24:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10471&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Okay. Thank you. So, I'll remind you of the point I made earlier of those parties, because your party failed Wales, and we must hold you to account. Reform are currently boycotting the Senedd whilst claiming to stand up for their constituents. They have demonised our health and social care workforce, and I want to remind everyone that that is a group of people that we couldn't have got through COVID without. [Interruption.] 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785941 324 Cy 2026-11-11T16:25:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10503&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I now call on the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution to formally move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785942 325 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I Amendment 2—Heledd Fychan Delete all and replace with: To propose that the Senedd: Notes the Welsh Government's decision to establish an Independent Wales Review of Covid-19, which will ensure that the lessons from Covid are learned and that Wales is better prepared for the next pandemic. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785943 326 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I Amendment 2 moved. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785944 327 Cy 2026-11-11T16:25:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10514&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution Trystan Davies, Dafydd Formally, Llywydd.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785945 328 En 2026-11-11T16:25:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10520&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul Before I make my contribution, I also want to pay tribute to COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru for their bravery in sharing their experiences and for everything they have done to fight for answers.  The COVID-19 pandemic was, without a shadow of a doubt, the greatest public health emergency of our lifetime. It fundamentally changed the way that we lived, and there's no denying that Governments across the world were under immense pressure to take decisions quickly. And I don't believe there is anybody in this Chamber that disputes the scale of the challenge that Government Ministers faced during that time, but lessons have to be learnt, and the people of Wales deserve some accountability from the Ministers who made decisions during that period. Wales needs its own Wales-wide COVID inquiry to examine the decisions taken by the Welsh Government, and the impact those decisions had on our communities. Families across Wales who lost loved ones deserve answers. Front-line workers who made huge sacrifices deserve answers. And the people of Wales deserve the assurances that lessons have been learnt. As has already been said, the Welsh Conservatives believe that this must be a statutory inquiry, led by an independent judge, with full powers to compel witnesses to give evidence and disclose documents. The idea that this inquiry could be watered down to a review could, in my view, compromise the independence, transparency and authority necessary to command public confidence in this inquiry. And quite frankly, I don't believe a Government review would have the capacity to properly investigate everything that needs to be examined. As Members know, there are serious questions over the availability and effectiveness of testing during different stages of the pandemic. There were also many concerns over the roll-out of vaccines, in relation to its planning, communication and delivery, all of which needs to be assessed objectively. The inquiry must examine the tragic issue of hospital-acquired COVID infections, and determine whether more could have been done to protect vulnerable patients. At the same time, the inquiry must consider the discharge of patients into care homes during the pandemic, which continues to be a source of deep concern for many families who lost relatives and believe critical mistakes were made. And the inquiry shouldn't stop there. The impact on our education system can't be ignored. Thousands of students across Wales experienced prolonged disruption to their education, with many of those learners still feeling the effects years later. In my view, the inquiry should investigate the decisions taken around school closures, remote learning, examinations and the support provided to children and young people during that period. We must understand what worked, what failed and how Wales can better prepare our education system should we ever face a pandemic like this in the future. We know that decisions made by Welsh Government Ministers were often different to other parts of the UK, which is why a Wales-specific inquiry is absolutely necessary. Of course, the UK COVID inquiry has an important role in considering some of these issues, but it cannot adequately provide the detailed examination of Welsh decision making that our own people deserve. And let's be absolutely clear: Plaid Cymru spent years campaigning for a Wales-specific COVID inquiry, arguing that Wales's unique experience warranted dedicated scrutiny, and yet now they appear willing to block the very process they once championed. So often we hear Plaid Cymru arguing for more powers and accountability here in Wales, and yet here they are denying the people of Wales a statutory, judge-led public inquiry into how the Welsh Government responded to the COVID pandemic. Llywydd, this debate is ultimately about the people of Wales and the families whose lives were forever changed by the pandemic. They deserve answers about the decisions that were made, transparency from those in positions of responsibility, and assurances that lessons will be learned to better protect future generations. As the now health Minister has said himself, and I quote, 'Without accurate factual evidence, then it is impossible to learn the right lessons, and more importantly, there is a risk of learning the wrong lessons and putting the lives of future generations at risk. We must therefore get to the truth. That is why I am so firm in insisting that witnesses must swear an oath, in order to ensure that we stick to our moral agreement with the people of Wales and find the truth in order to protect the welfare of those who come after us.' That is what he said, and he was absolutely right to say it. And it is absolutely right that there should be a statutory, judge-led inquiry, and so I urge Members to support this motion. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785954 329 En 2026-11-11T16:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10802&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785962 330 En 2026-11-11T16:30:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=10837&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 174 174 Lynne Neagle https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=174 Neagle, Lynne I hadn't planned to speak, but now that I'm on my feet I will say a few words. I was a backbencher during the pandemic and I was chair of the children's committee, and I have to say that I found the experience quite overwhelming, that of supporting my constituents. People were so incredibly frightened all the time. There were people who couldn't get access to food, and those people who were shielding were a particular concern. As someone who was only on the back benches then, I found this to be a genuinely overwhelming and quite frightening experience. I did just want to say how incredibly difficult this was for those people who were Ministers at the time. That may not be something everybody wants to hear. I'm grateful that Darren acknowledged this. What I saw—the whole time I was a backbencher—of the Ministers in the Government were people who were all doing their absolute best to look after people. I really regret the comments of Sarah Rees today. I think it is inappropriate to name another Member without giving them notice of that. Nobody knows the circumstances under which people were called or not called to give evidence to that COVID inquiry. I know that this is an extremely uncomfortable issue for all of Plaid Cymru. I can see it on all of your faces. But the way to deal with that is not to attack other people, in my view, without knowing the facts. That is deeply regrettable, and I think you should reflect on that, Sarah. I thought better of you. Turning to what we're discussing today, Ken has already set out our current position on the COVID inquiry. I do want to pay tribute to the families who have campaigned so vociferously on this for many years, and recognise that their struggle is one that is born out of terrible grief. I think we all have to remember that, how difficult that is for them. We are abstaining on the Conservative motion today because we felt that we needed to be consistent with our position. We felt that it would look opportunistic to do anything else and we feel that is the right thing to do. But we tabled our amendment because I have to say that I have been appalled by the behaviour of some in Plaid Cymru on this. If you had come into Government and realised that you had made a mistake about this—. Things are different when you're in Government. Government is really, really tough. I'll say that to all of you. If you'd come in and thought, ‘Well, this was a mistake, what we promised’, and had come to the Chamber and said, ‘We made a mistake, we are sorry that we made a mistake, and we are sorry to those families who believed that we were going to have a COVID inquiry’, it would be a different position to the one we are in today. We took no pleasure in tabling that amendment, but we do feel that Plaid Cymru have to be called to account for the way that they have made the COVID bereaved families feel. I believe that they have been misrepresenting their discussions with the COVID families and I believe that is a matter that should be looked at under the ministerial code. It is not too late to say sorry and to recognise the damage this issue has done, and I would ask you to reflect on that. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785968 331 En 2026-11-11T16:34:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11091&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. We used to sit over where Reform sit, and Plaid used to sit where we currently sit. The amount of times I sat and looked across that Chamber at the Plaid speakers who, spokesperson after spokesperson, supported an independent inquiry—. But the brutal truth is—. The people I feel so sorry for in all this are the families who lost loved ones. Because, as we've seen in the messages that have been publicly made available, senior Members of this Government, former spokespeople in opposition, gave them commitments, pledged to them that they would, in Government, deliver an independent inquiry that would compel witnesses to come before it and give evidence. If I'm wrong, let someone on that frontbench stand up and correct me. Did you give those pledges, or am I lying to this Chamber? Not one of you will stand up, will you, and correct me, because you know that I am correct. And that's the issue here. I listened to my colleague Sarah Rees talk about other Governments in other places and what they did. We admit that that was wrong, and they have been held to account at the UK inquiry. This isn't about what other Governments have done. This is about the pledges that this Government gave to bereaved families. It's a tragedy that they have not lived up to those pledges. You look at the motion here today, and it's quite a straightforward motion, really. It says: 'Believes that the people of Wales deserve a full, independent, and transparent investigation into the decision made during the Covid-19 pandemic.' Well, surely we agree with that. There's nothing to dispute there, surely. And then it goes on to say: 'Calls on the Welsh Government to establish a statutory judge-led public inquiry'. This is what you agreed to. In the election campaign, you agreed to that. So, surely you would want to see that come to fruition. And then it says: 'publish all findings and recommendations in full.'  Well, surely you'd want to see that as well. So, what's not to agree in this motion? Why are you objecting to this motion? There are families up there who saw loved ones die because their lungs were filling up with fluid, and they were drowning in their own fluid, and they couldn't be there to help and support them. Yet last week, a Member of your group said, 'Have you got £10 million to waste?' That is the standard of bile that has been thrown at people who lost loved ones through this campaign by people on the Government benches. Instead of looking in the mirror, looking at yourselves and wondering where you've gone wrong, you've tried to blame the COVID bereaved families. I think that's despicable—utterly despicable. What you need to do is face up and admit that you've got this wrong. The Minister should stand on his feet and correct the position that he's put the Government in by saying, 'We're going to have a review', and get on with an inquiry that lives up to the pledges that senior spokespeople, now Ministers, gave to the COVID bereaved families. And for the First Minister to say that he changed his mind when the UK COVID inquiry was formed is a blatant untruth, because the evidence shows that he was, up until last year, saying that there should be a judge-led COVID inquiry to deliver the results and the answers that we require here in Wales. Why try and politicise this so badly that you have turned against a group that only wants to see justice for people who lost loved ones and get answers for the rest of the families that have lived through hell in the last couple of years? Many on your benches, if not all of you, are decent people. You have beliefs and you have conviction. Exercise those beliefs. Exercise that conviction. Look at the evidence, correct the position and bring forward that inquiry that you promised and pledged. Because if you don't, this will hang round your necks like a millstone, because it is a blatant lie that you sold at the election, given the evidence that we have seen. And I have to say— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785946 332 En 2026-11-11T16:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11102&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785964 333 En 2026-11-11T16:39:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11400&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Sorry, could I just ask the Member to reflect on that statement, please? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785948 334 En 2026-11-11T16:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11402&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785952 335 En 2026-11-11T16:40:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11407&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785955 336 En 2026-11-11T16:40:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11408&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785980 337 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785981 338 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=-48598&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785982 339 En 2026-11-11T16:40:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11446&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785947 340 En 2026-11-11T16:40:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11406&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. I will not reflect on it, Presiding Officer, because the evidence that the COVID bereaved families have put before us clearly shows that the health Minister and the leader of the house said to them in messages, and I've asked them to say if I'm not telling the truth, that there would be a COVID inquiry or review—call it what you will—that would have a statutory power to compel witnesses to give evidence. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785957 341 En 2026-11-11T16:40:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11432&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I ask the Member again to reflect on the fact that he's accused another Member in this Chamber of lying. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785959 342 En 2026-11-11T16:40:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11439&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. I believe that they have. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785961 343 En 2026-11-11T16:40:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11444&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We will move on, please.  Before we move on to the next speaker, can I just raise a point here? A Member previously directly spoke to two Members within this Chamber and made allegations, one of which I made clear was not within the context of this debate. In respect of the Member Paul Davies, I just want to make it clear that, in terms of the investigation that was carried out, the commissioner concluded that no rules were broken. I just want to put that on record. There was also mention made of another Member. I want to make it clear that that isn't appropriate. We need to stick, for the benefit of the COVID families who are listening, to the substance of the debate. I believe the Member wants to say something. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785984 344 En 2026-11-11T16:41:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11502&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Diolch, Lywydd. I apologise, Paul, because I wasn't able to hear that comment. I was having a problem with being able to hear it. What I wanted to say at that point was that I apologise to you. I understand that you were cleared of those allegations. That wasn't the point I was wanting to make. Ken Skates, I would like to deeply apologise for what I said, deeply apologise. I understand it's very upsetting. The purpose of this debate is COVID bereaved families, and I hope that you will sincerely accept my apology. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785987 345 En 2026-11-11T16:42:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11533&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I thank the Member for that. Let us continue with the debate. Jane Dodds. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785988 346 En 2026-11-11T16:42:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11542&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Diolch, Lywydd. This is very sad, and I can see there's a lot of emotion in the Siambr this afternoon. But this is nothing compared to the sadness felt by the COVID bereaved families. Some I know are here, many of us have spoken to them, and I know many are watching online. Lots has been said to the frontbench of Plaid Cymru, but it is really difficult to understand why you said what you said and have now gone back on it. My party, more than any other party in this Siambr, knows and has experienced what it's like to pledge something and then not carry it out. But in this situation, we're talking about people whose relatives have died. They have had the real sadness and blow of losing somebody loved by them in awful circumstances, hanging on to the fact that they were going to have this inquiry, and then another blow that they are now not going to have this inquiry. So, it is a double blow for these families. The first was, as we know, the loss itself. The loved ones who died separated from them and the goodbyes said through windows. We can all remember that time, I'm sure, and we've heard today references to how sad that is. But Plaid Cymru have always told us that they want lived experiences in any of their processes, and yet we've heard that the COVID bereaved families are not going to participate in this inquiry, this review, and therefore it's going to be compromised. I do spare a thought for Professor Daniel Wincott, who has been asked to chair it. I wouldn't wish his position on anyone, because his review straight away has been compromised. We heard from Plaid Cymru for years—we've been over that ground, and I wouldn't want to bear down even further. But we heard time and time again, and I was in the Siambr when that happened, from the Ministers who are sitting here. And it's important that you are here. You said on numerous occasions that you wanted an inquiry, and now you've just let that go. I don't understand the reasons why you've done that, I really don't. I don't know that it's money; if it is, let's hear it. I don't know if it's about powers; if it is, let's hear it. I don't think it's good enough to say, 'We're waiting for the UK', because that was never told to us when we heard it in the Siambr. But the integrity of this Welsh Government has really been tarnished through this. And I don't want to end on despair, I really don't, because this has been a terrible afternoon, let's be honest. But I do want to comment on this debate right now. We know this is a non-binding debate, whatever the result is, whoever's come here to vote. We know that whether we win or lose it, it's absolutely non-binding. We know that there's going to be a prepared statement delivered to us. To be fair to Labour, at least they're honest; they didn't agree with it in the first place, and they don't agree with it now, which is different to what Plaid Cymru's position is. The cynic in me feels that this decision is being made right at the very beginning of this Government, because you feel that when it gets to the end, we might have forgotten about it. And that's a terrible position to be in. I want to finish by really reflecting on the families and their feelings. I can't imagine what it must be like. They were let down by your response, and I do appeal to Plaid Cymru Members: please, please—many of you were not here in the last Senedd, but please take this back to your group. There is time to change your mind, there really is. There is time to see that the door is open, and I implore you to step through it and have a proper inquiry. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785975 347 En 2026-11-11T16:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11702&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785977 348 En 2026-11-11T16:46:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11819&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew It's almost seven years since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, and many of us in this Chamber and around Wales will remember the fear of those early days. There are many of us that are still feeling the profound loss of loved ones, many in very sudden traumatic circumstances. At the heart of this debate today, there are still people who want answers for their families and for their loved ones, and the Welsh Government needs answers too, and to learn for the future. I sincerely hope that the review will do that. It's important to acknowledge that the COVID-bereaved families group are not happy with the Government's approach here. We must also acknowledge the work that the group have achieved and their continuing profound grief. No process can promise to answer every question we might have about the events of the past, but we owe it to those who suffered, to those we lost and to future generations to try. Again, I sincerely hope that the review will do that. To meet that responsibility, the review that has been announced must be able to access all of the information that it needs, and the Government has confirmed that the review will collect new information to fill gaps that are identified. This is very important, and I welcome that commitment. But two questions remain, and I'd like to pose these to the Gweinidog, and I appreciate this is a debate, this is something to reflect on today or again. We need to know how will the Government work with the UK COVID inquiry to guarantee its collaboration with the review, and specifically how it will transfer the confidential information not publicly available. And how will the review learn from the work that the COVID-bereaved families have already done, and how will they be invited to share their expertise and evidence to its fullest effect? We have to work together on this; there are lots of bridges to be rebuilt. That's all I have to say. Diolch yn fawr. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785983 349 En 2026-11-11T16:49:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=11976&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet The COVID-19 pandemic was an unprecedented event unlike anything most of us have experienced in our lifetime. It brought challenges and uncertainty on a scale few could have imagined. And I want to start off by thanking the group, the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru, because they have had to live their lives since this terrible pandemic with that knowledge and having lost their loved ones. And all they have asked for is justice, for lessons to be learned and for a statutory public inquiry. And that is what has been reiterated here. It's what you, Cabinet Secretary for health, promised at the time, as other members of your now Cabinet did. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785976 350 En 2026-11-11T16:50:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12032&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Tragically, 12,944 people in Wales lost their lives with COVID between 3 January 2020 and 27 September 2024. Betsi Cadwaladr, my own health board, recorded 2,536 COVID-19-related deaths, the highest number of any Welsh health board, while 1,097 patients entered Welsh care homes untested in March and April 2020. Now, I carried the portfolio and was shadow Minister for social care. So, it was a position where people were coming to me from across Wales, but no more so than in Aberconwy at the time. Behind every statistic was a person and a family grieving someone they loved. Those families deserve transparency, accountability and an honest account of the decisions taken in Wales. And that is why I and my colleagues on these Welsh Conservative benches continue and will keep continuing to call for a full Wales-wide judge-led statutory inquiry. Now, the treatment of those running our care homes and our very vulnerable patients remains one of the most serious unanswered questions from this pandemic. On 27 March 2020, I wrote to the then health Minister calling for urgent action to supply social care staff with personal protective equipment, because at that point in time it was only going into the healthcare system. I asked the Welsh Government to contact every social care provider, assess its own needs and clarify how emergency support could be obtained. On 29 April 2020, I challenged the then health Minister in the Senedd and called for the immediate testing of asymptomatic care home residents. Without wider testing, we just didn't know, and the Government didn't know, the true spread of infection or know how to properly protect residents and indeed staff working in these environments. On 22 June 2020, I called for an urgent inquiry into whether untested hospital discharges had increased infection rates and put vulnerable residents at risk. Care professionals had told me they were being placed under unacceptable pressures to accept patients from hospitals that were untested or some actually confirmed to have COVID-19. I also wrote to the Older People's Commissioner for Wales begging them to help seeking independent scrutiny. On 8 July 2020, I again questioned the health Minister in this Senedd, asking whether the Welsh Government would compare discharge records with COVID-19 cases in care homes. And I highlighted that 188 north Wales homes had received discharged patients in the nine weeks from 16 March. Families here, families out there deserve to know what impact those decisions had on their loved ones. They deserve to know whether their loved ones were among those admitted without a test and whether more could have been done to protect them. At that time, my colleague Darren Miller MS also raised concerns about a possible link between care home infection rates and hospital discharges. He, too, called for an urgent investigation. Now, before the election, as has been said—. It's rather ironic that you're the party—Plaid Cymru are the party—that wanted to introduce this. You could lose your seat if you lied during the election time or lie during your time as a Senedd Member. You promised the COVID-bereaved families answers and proper closure and justice. In June 2020, they said the discharge of more than 1,000 untested patients into care should be a central question for a full public inquiry. Yet, you have just done a u-turn. You have betrayed the very people you have been elected to serve.  COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru, who have worked with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, were promised this statutory inquiry. Now, that distinction matters from a review. The Welsh Conservatives have consistently called for a Wales-specific statutory inquiry. Our representative on the committee resigned from the Senedd Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee after Welsh Labour blocked our attempt to secure the safeguard of Ministers and officials giving evidence under oath. It is never too late to go back, Plaid Cymru Welsh Government Cabinet. It's never wrong to say, 'I'm sorry'. We get it. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785965 351 En 2026-11-11T16:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12302&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 787222 352 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I The Deputy Presiding Officer (Kerry Ferguson) took the Chair. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786012 353 En 2026-11-11T16:55:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12350&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry Sorry, Janet, can I ask you to conclude? Thank you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786016 354 En 2026-11-11T16:55:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12352&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet I will finish now. Please—. Rhun, as the First Minister, you've just entered the Chamber now; you've missed a lot of very good contributions. This is not a political football for any of us to play. This is probably one of the most serious matters that will come up in this Senedd. I implore you to do what is just, to do what is right, to do what is moral and allow a public inquiry, judge led, to go ahead. Nothing less. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785966 355 Cy 2026-11-11T16:56:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12386&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12177 12177 Kerry Ferguson https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12177 Deputy Presiding Officer Ferguson, Kerry Thank you. I call on the the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution, Dafydd Trystan Davies. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785967 356 Cy 2026-11-11T16:56:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12394&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution Trystan Davies, Dafydd Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. When we discuss people's experiences of the COVID-19 pandemic in this place, it's very important that we bear in mind the completely destructive impact and those who continue to be affected today, including those whom we know and love. Our consideration of these important issues and our response to them continue. But let us remember that the grief and anxiety of those affected also continue. That's why we as a Government must take the most appropriate steps to ensure that we are better prepared for future pandemics. That is why we have established a COVID review, to scrutinise, to hold people to account, to secure a better response in the future, and why this Government cannot support the motion before us today. Not because— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786086 357 En 2026-11-11T16:57:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12460&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Shame on you. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786087 358 Cy 2026-11-11T16:57:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12463&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd Not because an inquiry shouldn't be held into the decisions taken during the pandemic, but because many of those inquiries are already progressing. As part of the UK COVID inquiry, a large number of issues were looked at across a very broad remit, and many of those reports have been published since the election, and there are more modules to come. That work has been done independent of any Government, and is thorough and transparent. They are more than halfway through their programme. And— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785969 359 En 2026-11-11T16:58:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12499&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Would you take an intervention—a short one? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785970 360 En 2026-11-11T16:58:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12503&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd I do, Janet, want to make some progress. Members have made a number of points, and I've been asked to explain very clearly why we have reached the position we have. I intend to do so, so I will make progress with— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785971 361 En 2026-11-11T16:58:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12516&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Just tell me why the COVID-19 bereaved families can't be part of that evidence giving? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785972 362 En 2026-11-11T16:58:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12521&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd I would be delighted, and I shall repeat what I have said in this Chamber before—. I know the grave disappointment they feel as to the position we are in. I would be delighted if the COVID bereaved families were to engage with our review, and I am keen to see whatever way possible we can as a Government to facilitate that participation in the review. I make that commitment absolutely and categorically to this Chamber. Diolch, Janet. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785973 363 Cy 2026-11-11T16:59:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12548&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd So, the UK inquiry has looked in detail at a number of issues. It is worth looking at some of those reports. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785974 364 En 2026-11-11T16:59:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12557&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd I was reading the module 6 report again over the weekend. I'm quoting: 'Updated guidance on hospital discharge requirements was published by the Welsh Government on 29 April 2020.... This took too long.' Had the Welsh Government 'recognised the importance of adequate IPC training in the adult social care sector from late January 2020 and acted with sufficient urgency to ensure that additional training was provided, greater protection could have been provided for both staff and users of adult social care.' There was a 'lack of advance planning' by the Welsh Government about the financial support for care homes that was needed 'to remain sustainable and to meet increasing costs caused by a pandemic.' And we as a Government are already responding to the recommendations that the UK inquiry has made. Since taking office, we've published responses to recommendations made in respect of healthcare and vaccine modules, and we'll publish an update on progress in relation to recommendations on resilience and preparedness and Government decision making by the end of this month. I am determined that we will learn the lessons from the pandemic, and I'm focused on ensuring that the recommendations from the inquiry are implemented. But there is more to do. And where evidence is insufficient or gaps remain, just as my colleague the Member for Sir Fynwy Torfaen was illustrating, where evidence is insufficient or gaps remain, our review panel will be able to examine the issues in greater depth and identify where more needs to be done in the Welsh context. Now, I know there's been much political debate today, but I do want to focus our minds—focus our minds as parliamentarians who owe to our electors our good judgment on the facts of the matter and the framework of public inquiries. The motion set out by the Welsh Conservatives highlights the example of the Scottish COVID inquiry. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785978 365 En 2026-11-11T17:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12602&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785989 366 En 2026-11-11T17:01:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12680&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 171 171 Darren Millar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Millar, Darren Which you used to highlight. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785990 367 En 2026-11-11T17:01:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12682&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd Indeed. Members may not be aware of the costs of the Scottish COVID inquiry that have already been incurred—£58 million. And yes, you did hear that correctly—£58 million. Members may also not be familiar, and, responsibly—[Interruption.]—I've been looking at the details. I will make progress now, Member. Members may also not be familiar with how the inquiry has progressed. Colleagues will be familiar with the legal advocate Aamer Anwar, who acts on behalf of the Scottish COVID Bereaved group: 'Why will this inquiry report some eight years after COVID-19 began, and what has £60 million been spent on thus far?' Those are the challenges that there are with the Scottish COVID inquiry, and that is part of the motion before us today. But Members may rightly say, 'Well, that is only one example. It may have been a particularly injudicious choice on behalf of our Conservative colleagues in terms of the relevant public inquiry.' But, no, that would not be accurate. The challenges of the Scottish inquiry are not bugs in the system, but features of public inquiries. Members, I'm sure, are aware that public inquiries are established by Ministers under the Inquiries Act 2005, and they have been subject to considerable discussion and debate in recent years, and criticised on three counts: costs, timeliness and the failure to follow through on recommendations. I suspect Members, given the tenor of the debate, may not be minded to take my word for it. I'll take an intervention— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786019 368 En 2026-11-11T17:03:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12797&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. I'm really grateful to you, Cabinet Minister. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786023 369 En 2026-11-11T17:03:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12799&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd —and I will, hopefully, explain in full. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786024 370 En 2026-11-11T17:03:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12802&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. The health Minister agreed with the COVID bereaved families—we've seen the correspondence—on a limited public inquiry, focusing on health and social care, at a cost of £10 million, advised by the legal representative to the infected blood scandal. So, there's a model there that you as a party agreed to, via your health Minister, the then health spokesperson. So, stop misleading this Chamber, throwing in the £58 million. You had a deal, and you've reneged on it. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786033 371 En 2026-11-11T17:03:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12833&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd Dirprwy Lywydd, our manifesto was clear, and we have studied the costs of public inquiries right across the UK. The Member mentions the infected blood inquiry. Would the Member like to intervene and tell us how much that has cost? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786036 372 En 2026-11-11T17:04:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12850&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. I will repeat again: your health spokesperson had an agreement with the COVID bereaved families for an 18-month public inquiry costing £10 million. Did he not? Did he not? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786037 373 En 2026-11-11T17:04:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12862&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd I can help him out—it has cost over £100 million. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786039 374 En 2026-11-11T17:04:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12864&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Did he not? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786040 375 En 2026-11-11T17:04:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12865&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd I shall now make progress. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives may now— 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786041 376 En 2026-11-11T17:04:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12868&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 171 171 Darren Millar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Millar, Darren The average cost of a public inquiry is £11.6 million, according to the House of Commons research team. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786042 377 En 2026-11-11T17:04:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12875&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd Let us now make progress. Members should not take my word for it—and I apologise, Dirprwy Lywydd, I have been indulging Members, because I think this is an important debate—. Members should not take my word for it, but turn to respected independent commentary. The Institute for Government has said: 'Public inquiries are taking longer, costing more, and too often failing to deliver meaningful change.' The House of Lords, esteemed Lord Norton of Louth, looked at these matters: 'too often inquiries are failing, chiefly because when they report there is no obligation on government to act.... And if it says it accepts them, there is no systematic means of monitoring implementation. Inquiries cannot themselves pursue government because the moment they report, they cease to exist.' The legislative framework for public inquiries, as established by independent experts, is challenging. That is the position I was faced with, conscientiously, carefully, as a Government Minister, considering what we should do. We must think very carefully before rushing to conduct inquiries before that overdue reform of the system takes place. And as the Scottish COVID inquiry example demonstrates in very clear terms, and the independent evidence shows, public inquiries today in the UK face serious challenges around cost, around timeliness and ability to deliver recommendations. And that is why I took the decision I did, and that is why I have reported it to the Senedd. I shall make one comment on my colleague Jane Dodds's point about the timing of that. I would expect Members of the Senedd to hold me and my colleagues to account for the progress of that review over the next three years. I am determined that we do better in the future. We owe it to all of those who lost their lives to do so, and I would urge Members to think, when we come to vote as parliamentarians, to recognise the very real effects that COVID has seen right across the country, that people still feel, and to learn those lessons effectively, and to hold this Government to account for doing so. Please support the Government amendment. Diolch yn fawr. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785979 378 En 2026-11-11T17:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=12902&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 787223 379 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I The Llywydd (Huw Irranca-Davies) took the Chair. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785997 380 Cy 2026-11-11T17:07:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13031&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I call on Sam Rowlands to reply to the debate. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785998 381 En 2026-11-11T17:07:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13034&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 8734 8734 Sam Rowlands https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8734 Rowlands, Sam Diolch, Lywydd. I'd like to begin by thanking everyone who has taken part in this debate today, especially those showing support for our motion here this afternoon. Members across the Chamber have been right to thank, especially, the COVID bereaved families for justice group, families who have been fighting tirelessly for six years for truth, transparency and justice for their loved ones. Llywydd, every single person in this Chamber and every person across Wales has carried a personal experience of COVID-19. We all remember being locked down, being separated from our elderly parents, missing the births of children, the funerals of friends, or catching the virus ourselves and facing that profound collective uncertainty. We've heard today moving testimonies from Members across this Chamber detailing their own experiences and the devastating impact on their families. It's because we placed our lives, our health and our communities into the hands of Government during those dark days that politics revealed itself for what it truly is—a profound public trust. At the heart of democratic governance lies an absolute moral obligation: the pursuit of truth, the preservation of absolute integrity. When a society faces a crisis of that magnitude, that obligation becomes entirely sacred. Yet, under the foundational principles of the social contract, authority is never absolute, it's borrowed from the people. Because power without accountability is merely a shadow on democracy. Rigorous scrutiny is not a bureaucratic hurdle or procedural annoyance, it's the very oxygen of a free society. It's the moral duty of the state. And this Welsh Government—any Welsh Government—cannot expect to hold devolved powers while evading the unvarnished responsibility for how those powers were used. A genuine inquiry is the essential instrument through which a community honours its grief, learns from its mistakes and tests its own conscience. It must be judge-led, politically impartial and completely fearless, compelling all voices to be heard so that no stone is left unturned. A mere review lacking teeth and statutory power is a quiet compromise from the truth. It's a compromise that those we lost and the families they left behind simply do not deserve. Cabinet Minister, we are confronted today with a profound question of principle and moral consistency. True political integrity requires that our words when we are in opposition must match our actions when we hold power. It requires that our moral commitments remain steadfast regardless of shifting political convenience. When principles are discarded for the sake of expediency, public trust is fractured and the bond between the citizen and its Government is damaged. We've watched a deeply troubling departure from commitments previously made here today—commitments shared proudly alongside the bereaved families themselves. We've witnessed a shift from the absolute demand for a full statutory inquiry to settling for lesser, muted measures that lack the statutory power to compel truth or demand accountability. And this debate today has been much more than a routine policy disagreement. It's a fundamental test of whether our democratic institutions honour their word and treat citizens with the dignity that they are owed. Plaid Cymru must realign its actions with its foundational principles, keep its solemn promises to the bereaved families, and commission a real statutory inquiry into the Welsh Government's handling of the pandemic. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785985 382 En 2026-11-11T17:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13202&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786056 383 En 2026-11-11T17:13:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13430&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786061 384 En 2026-11-11T17:11:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13301&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12156 12156 Huw Thomas https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156 Thomas, Huw Will you take an intervention? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786062 385 En 2026-11-11T17:11:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13303&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 8734 8734 Sam Rowlands https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8734 Rowlands, Sam Certainly. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785993 386 En 2026-11-11T17:11:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13304&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 12156 12156 Huw Thomas https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156 Thomas, Huw Thank you. You are right to say that integrity is at the heart of the debate today. We've heard from the Minister, and I think it's been quite unfair to put the Minister in this position; he wasn't in the Senedd before May. Do you agree with me, Sam, that we could have better been served by hearing today from the health Minister, the Trefnydd and the First Minister, for them to explain why they made the promises they did and then haven't delivered on them? 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785992 387 En 2026-11-11T17:12:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13329&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 8734 8734 Sam Rowlands https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8734 Rowlands, Sam I think you're absolutely right to point that out. In a certain way, I feel sorry for the Cabinet Minister here today, having to face up to what his colleagues have promised in the past. And, of course, he himself stood on that manifesto and this whole Cabinet stood on that manifesto, promising those bereaved families that this inquiry would take place. To close, Llywydd, true integrity requires us to face the light, accept thorough and unflinching scrutiny and honour the truth no matter how difficult or uncomfortable the path may be toward it. I urge all Members to support our motion. Diolch. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785999 388 Cy 2026-11-11T17:12:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13372&l=en 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786034 389 Cy 261111-8 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 Inquiry I Voting deferred until voting time. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786015 390 Cy 2026-11-11T17:13:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13402&l=en 261111-9 8. Reform UK Debate: Support for the Armed Forces and Veterans C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We'll move now to item 8. This item has been withdrawn. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786030 391 Cy 2026-11-11T17:13:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13410&l=en 261111-9 8. Reform UK Debate: Support for the Armed Forces and Veterans C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We will now move to item 9, voting time. Unless five Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting time.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786018 392 Cy 2026-11-11T17:13:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13429&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw So, we will move to a vote on item 6. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Kiera Marshall. Open the vote. Close the vote. The result of the vote is as follows: in favour 55, 19 abstentions and 13 against. The motion is therefore agreed. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786049 393 Cy 261111-10 9. Voting Time V Item 6. Members Legislative Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) - Planning framework for quarrying developments. : For: 55, Against: 13, Abstain: 19Motion has been agreed<div class="voteResultLinkContainer"><a href="record.senedd.wales/VoteOutcome/16423/?#V7503">Click to see vote results</a></div> 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786050 394 Cy 2026-11-11T17:14:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13494&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We will now move to a vote on item 7. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. If the proposal in not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. The result of the vote is as follows: in favour 38, eight abstentions, 41 against. The motion is therefore not agreed. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785996 395 Cy 2026-11-11T17:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13502&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786001 396 Cy 261111-10 9. Voting Time V Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Wales Covid-19 Inquiry. Motion without amendment: For: 38, Against: 41, Abstain: 8 Motion has been rejected<div class="voteResultLinkContainer"><a href="record.senedd.wales/VoteOutcome/16423/?#V7504">Click to see vote results</a></div> 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786002 397 Cy 2026-11-11T17:15:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13557&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle. Open the vote. Close the vote. The result of the vote is as follows: in favour 39, no abstentions, 48 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786006 398 Cy 2026-11-11T17:16:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13600&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd That was amendment 1, Llywydd. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786008 399 Cy 2026-11-11T17:16:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13603&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Amendment 1. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786045 400 Cy 2026-11-11T17:16:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13603&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 12140 12140 Dafydd Trystan Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12140 Trystan Davies, Dafydd Yes. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786047 401 Cy 2026-11-11T17:16:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13604&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I do apologise. Thank you. Amendment 1 is therefore not agreed. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786011 402 Cy 261111-10 9. Voting Time V Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Wales Covid-19 Inquiry. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle: For: 39, Against: 48, Abstain: 0 Amendment has been rejected<div class="voteResultLinkContainer"><a href="record.senedd.wales/VoteOutcome/16423/?#V7505">Click to see vote results</a></div> 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786014 403 Cy 2026-11-11T17:16:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13616&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. The result of the vote is as follows: in favour 41, no abstentions, 46 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786020 404 Cy 261111-10 9. Voting Time V Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Wales Covid-19 Inquiry. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 41, Against: 46, Abstain: 0 Amendment has been rejected<div class="voteResultLinkContainer"><a href="record.senedd.wales/VoteOutcome/16423/?#V7506">Click to see vote results</a></div> 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786022 405 Cy 2026-11-11T17:17:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13657&l=en 261111-10 9. Voting Time C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw As the Senedd has not agreed the motion without amendment and has not agreed the amendments tabled to the motion, the motion is therefore not agreed. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786026 406 En 2026-11-11T17:17:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13674&l=en 261111-11 10. Short Debate: The deposit-return scheme—We need a pause now C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We now move—. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786029 407 Cy 2026-11-11T17:17:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13679&l=en 261111-11 10. Short Debate: The deposit-return scheme—We need a pause now C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw We will now move to the short debate, but the Member is not in attendance. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786031 408 En 2026-11-11T17:18:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13689&l=en 261111-11 10. Short Debate: The deposit-return scheme—We need a pause now C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw The Member is not here to introduce the debate, so the debate cannot proceed. Simply to make a point: out of respect to the Siambr and also to Members, we would expect to be informed if the debate is not to proceed or has been withdrawn.  16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786035 409 Cy 2026-11-11T17:18:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13708&l=en 261111-11 10. Short Debate: The deposit-return scheme—We need a pause now C 5053 5053 Huw Irranca-Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5053 Llywydd Irranca-Davies, Huw Therefore, that brings today's proceedings to a close. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 786038 410 Cy 261111-11 10. Short Debate: The deposit-return scheme—We need a pause now I The meeting ended at 17:18. 16423 7 2026-11-11T13:30:02 785994 411 En 2026-11-11T17:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16423?startPos=13802&l=en 261111-11 10. Short Debate: The deposit-return scheme—We need a pause now C