16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783862 0 Cy 2026-11-05T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=-35124&l=en 261105-0 C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783986 1 En 2026-11-05T09:46:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=85&l=en 261105-0 C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783983 2 En 2026-11-05T09:46:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=70&l=en 261105-0 C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784411 3 Cy 261105-0 I The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783863 4 Cy 261105-0 I The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The meeting began at 09:45. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783860 5 En 2026-11-05T09:45:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3&l=en 261105-1 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Good morning, all. I'd like to welcome Members and the public to the meeting of the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee. The public items of the meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published. We have received apologies this morning from Francesca O'Brien MS and also Anthony Slaughter MS. The meeting is bilingual. Simultaneous interpretation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from anyone? None. Marvellous. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783868 6 En 2026-11-05T09:46:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=37&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo The purpose of the item in the first part of today's meeting is to hold a scrutiny session with the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning as part of our follow-up inquiry into empty properties. Welcome, Cabinet Minister. Just for the record, would you like to introduce your team? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783869 7 Cy 2026-11-05T09:46:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=55&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. I'll start with Richard. Richard, you can introduce yourself. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783982 8 En 2026-11-05T09:46:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=60&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4285 Richard Baker Baker, Richard Bore da. Good morning. Richard Baker, deputy director of the place division. In the context of this session, I have responsibility for town-centre regeneration. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783984 9 En 2026-11-05T09:46:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=71&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 9389 Stuart Fitzgerald Fitzgerald, Stuart Good morning, all. Bore da. I'm Stuart Fitzgerald. I'm the deputy director for the more homes division, so I oversee a number of schemes delivering more homes. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783985 10 En 2026-11-05T09:46:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=86&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you very much. Without further ado, I will invite Members to question the witnesses. So, who have we got? On the Welsh Government's strategic approach, Marc. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783987 11 Cy 2026-11-05T09:47:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=99&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc A simple question to start with. There is great mention made about the need for a national scheme or plan to sort this out. It's been a problem for far too long. Will there be a national plan or scheme? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783991 12 Cy 2026-11-05T09:47:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=113&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you for the question and thank you for the opportunity to come before the committee this morning. I'm here to be scrutinised, of course, but I also hope we will be able to share something of the same vision and that some of the recommendations that this committee will make will assist my work in moving this specific agenda about empty homes and vacant properties forward. Therefore, I'd like to thank you for undertaking this inquiry, which is very important. I do look forward to seeing the fruits of your work. You asked about a strategy or a plan. We are working on a general strategy on housing and property. Beneath that, there will be many work streams, and one of them, obviously, will be empty homes. There will be areas that are encompassing social housing supply, homelessness and other issues, of course, which will lie within that strategy. There will be room for empty properties and tackling the problems arising from those. The idea is that we're not starting from nowhere, of course; the work is happening. But we need a clear focus in the general housing strategy—a very clear focus—and I think that that may be the difference, perhaps: that this strategy will show a difference in that we have a clear focus on increasing the stock of public housing in Wales and that that will be our main way of tackling the housing crisis. Therefore, we need to bring everything together, but, beneath that, as I say, vacant property will have its place. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783995 13 Cy 2026-11-05T09:49:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=240&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc Thank you. May I ask a further question? You have referred to that objective of reaching 20,000 additional social homes. How many of those do you foresee will be empty properties turned into social homes? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783996 14 Cy 2026-11-05T09:49:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=260&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian That's an extremely important question. I can't give you a figure in terms of percentages at present, but certainly I wish to see more vacant properties contributing towards that figure of 20,000 social homes. There are many challenges involved, as you will know, but there is a real opportunity as well. If we can do things slightly differently, perhaps, there will be a greater opportunity to bring empty properties into that target of 20,000. That target includes homes in the area of care as well. But the target is entirely clear. We want to see public homes that stay as public homes for the future, as part of the 20,000 target. I don't know if Stuart wants to come in and say more on the empty properties side of things and the percentage we hope to move towards there.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784220 15 Cy 2026-11-05T09:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=276&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784233 16 En 2026-11-05T09:50:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=330&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 9389 Stuart Fitzgerald Fitzgerald, Stuart So, definitely, a percentage is difficult, as you mentioned, but the TACP capital programme has been quite successful in bringing existing dwellings back into use. So, we're doing more through that and as much as we can through that. That's a registered social landlord route to do that. But as you'll see in the evidence paper, we're looking at how we might be able to enable smaller small and medium-sized enterprises to develop properties—empty properties, derelict properties—and bring those back into use into the social sector, alongside the schemes we have to bring them back into the market sector as well. So, we do hope to increase that percentage, and I do see this avenue being able to add more to the 20,000 target than we once had. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784232 17 Cy 2026-11-05T09:51:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=382&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I'm sure that we will come on to the TACP, which is quite a new fund, which enables landlords to be a little more flexible and also enables them, therefore, to go after the empty homes sector a little more. Perhaps we'll return to that.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784236 18 En 2026-11-05T09:52:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=404&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian What's the jargon? TACP is trans— 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784237 19 En 2026-11-05T09:52:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=409&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 9389 Stuart Fitzgerald Fitzgerald, Stuart Transitional accommodation capital programme.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784238 20 Cy 2026-11-05T09:52:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=411&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Transitional accommodation capital—to help with the homelessness situation, in order to get capital for part of the sector, which is very important before building on the social housing side that will be permanent, in a way. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784239 21 En 2026-11-05T09:52:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=434&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4285 Richard Baker Baker, Richard Can I give just one example of the cross-cutting nature and how we contribute to the empty properties? Obviously, a town-centre taskforce is being convened. One of the areas is looking at empty properties, but also linking that to increased living in town centres. So, we'll be pulling those strands together over the various thematic workshops and also we'll be producing various recommendations in the spring around that. So, this area will be captured in terms of empty properties and then also contributing to obviously mixed tenure in town centres, but obviously there'll be an affordable social housing provision included within that as well. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784244 22 En 2026-11-05T09:53:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=467&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Rebeca.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784243 23 Cy 2026-11-05T09:53:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=469&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Thank you very much for joining us, Minister. During our inquiry, a number of stakeholders said that the current Welsh housing quality standard, the WHQS, was a barrier for purchasing additional empty properties to turn into social homes. A review is currently under way. Do you have a timetable for completing that review? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784246 24 Cy 2026-11-05T09:53:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=497&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you for raising this. The review has begun of the WHQS for social housing, in order to ensure that it's still fit for purpose. The review is looking at what is important to tenants, but also, obviously, we need to retain a level of standard so that we can maintain the Government's wider ambitions when it comes to decarbonisation and so on. The work is progressing quickly. The social landlords are a part of that, and they have been calling for us to look at this specific standard. The tenants association is also contributing to the work and has been calling for something similar. And as we were saying about the TACP, there is an approach within that that talks about a required standard to provide accommodation quickly, and this enables a slight diversion in that fund or programme away from the WHQS to meet urgent needs. So, there is some scope for us to do that within that specific programme. What I am currently doing is looking more broadly at the WHQS to see if there's anything we can do to accelerate the process without compromising on the energy efficiency side. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784162 25 Cy 2026-11-05T09:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=576&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784174 26 Cy 2026-11-05T09:55:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=600&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784173 27 En 2026-11-05T09:55:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=601&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Funding—Mike. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784203 28 En 2026-11-05T09:55:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=606&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike The first question on funding: the empty homes grant is due to end in March 2027. Will you continue it? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784205 29 Cy 2026-11-05T09:55:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=614&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian This Government has inherited a number of programmes, a number of grants, a number of funds that have been developed over the years, and you would expect me to be looking at all of these in detail to see whether they are still working in the way that we would all want to see. So, we are looking at that specific fund to ensure that it does meet the need, and we will certainly welcome your inquiry in contributing towards that work in terms of that specific grant. There has been some change recently, hasn't there, in terms of the contribution of local authorities—Stuart will mention more on that as well. The contribution of local authorities has been withdrawn from it now. So, we will see how that works—is that helping to get more people to use this specific grant fund? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784217 30 En 2026-11-05T09:56:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=695&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Stuart, do you want to talk about what we've done recently? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784216 31 En 2026-11-05T09:57:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=698&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 9389 Stuart Fitzgerald Fitzgerald, Stuart Yes. The evaluation report, which I think was in the evidence paper, has been really helpful and suggested a number of areas that we can look at around the level of grant, the processes, the way it's run, all those kinds of things that we are looking at and we'll be advising the Minister on. The 10 per cent contribution has helped, so now we've got all local authorities signed up to the grant. This is the first year where we've had all local authorities, so we're looking forward to seeing the impact of all of that, but it's really positive. I look forward to giving advice to the Minister on how that scheme might be refined and move forward on what the options are. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784223 32 Cy 2026-11-05T09:57:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=742&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian And one option that we are looking at is what you mentioned there at the beginning about the Development Bank for Wales looking at the potential of the scheme to target small businesses, small construction firms, to provide funding for them to buy and to revamp empty properties to bring them back into use and ultimately bringing them back as social homes, public homes. So, that's a new thing in terms of the use of that specific grant. Officials are working with the development bank to see what we can do in that regard. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784251 33 En 2026-11-05T09:58:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=784&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike I was disappointed with that answer, because you've had six months to look at it and it's a scheme that has worked reasonably well. I'm going to ask you about another scheme that has worked exceptionally well, and that's the Leasing Scheme Wales, which is supported by the private sector, which has allowed houses to become available for social rent—those that are owned by private landlords. Will you be continuing that? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784253 34 Cy 2026-11-05T09:58:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=810&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian At present, a decision is being made not to continue with that scheme, a five-year scheme that was established under the previous Government. The idea behind that was to work with landlords in the private sector to help to tackle the pressures around housing. It has played an important part in those five years to bring empty properties back into use, and it has brought some important issues and lessons to our attention. I'm still reviewing the evidence, but there is no funding likely to be in next year's budget. Unfortunately, this is one of those schemes that are being affected by the financial situation, the financial climate. As you can imagine, there is huge pressure on the budget in Wales, and next year, there will be no funding in the budget, but there was no intention that there would be funding in the budget, because this was a five-year scheme—that's what it was meant to be. And during those five years, of course, homes have been developed under that scheme. Local authorities have the right to extend the current lease after those five years; it doesn't mean that these homes will disappear. It means that local authorities have the right to make the most of the investment that has taken place under this scheme. We are eager to give an entirely clear focus on developing the supply of public housing that will be public housing for future generations. This scheme does not quite do that. It's a temporary solution in response to a particular situation, and where resources are scarce, we have to decide where we're going to place our focus, and this Government's focus is on developing social housing supply. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784289 35 Cy 2026-11-05T10:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=876&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784305 36 En 2026-11-05T10:01:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=960&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Any other questions on funding? David, or Peter. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784307 37 En 2026-11-05T10:01:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=974&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Minister, we just wondered if you think it's justifiable that some local authorities are charging that empty homes premium but not funding empty homes officers to support that purpose, really. And I just wondered if you were thinking of introducing a statutory duty on local authorities to take action on empty homes, and if you might consider ring-fencing empty home premiums to housing. So, there are three questions in one there. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784308 38 Cy 2026-11-05T10:02:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1009&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. I'm very pleased to see councils across Wales using this right to ring-fence premiums for empty homes and for second homes as well. It's a very good way, I believe, of helping us with bringing more of the housing stock back into active use as homes for the people in these communities. So, that's why these premiums were introduced. I was pleased to be part of the process of introducing these during the previous Senedd. Pembrokeshire County Council has asked the Welsh Government for direction with regard to the use of the council tax premium, the empty homes premium and second home premium, for their housing revenue account to provide additional affordable housing and social housing, and I think that's an idea that should be supported by us as a Government. But as you know, it's a matter for individual local authorities to decide on their empty homes strategies, and we are very content to support the development of those strategies, and we wouldn't want to be setting out clear conditions—it's up to local authorities. You will appreciate that yourself, that element of enabling communities and councils to pursue their own paths. But the message from me is that we would support that kind of movement, and certainly we would support the idea of there being empty homes officers in place in local authorities. And it's up to them how they spend their money, isn't it? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784316 39 En 2026-11-05T10:04:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1130&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Okay, thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784317 40 En 2026-11-05T10:04:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1132&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you, Peter. Local authority resource—David, you've got a question. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784318 41 En 2026-11-05T10:04:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1138&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12159 12159 David Hughes https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12159 Hughes, David Yes. Minister, do you feel that best practice is being shared amongst local authorities? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784319 42 Cy 2026-11-05T10:04:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1150&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian That's a very good question, because I believe that there are very good examples of good practice throughout Wales, where we do see progress in bringing empty homes back into use. It isn't consistent, you're right. But as I said, those strategies are designed at a local level, aren't they? We can offer guidance, of course. And in our new strategy on housing and regeneration, in general, I'd like to put greater emphasis on this aspect of the work. But it's important to share good practice and the expertise available among local authorities, and perhaps we don't do enough of that. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784160 43 Cy 2026-11-05T10:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1176&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784163 44 En 2026-11-05T10:05:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1207&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Legislation, Elyn. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784164 45 Cy 2026-11-05T10:05:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1214&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12164 12164 Elyn Stephens https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12164 Stephens, Elyn Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister. I want to turn to the topic of long-term empty properties. We heard evidence from representatives of local authorities about the use of a compulsory purchase order in Bridgend, but on hearing evidence from other authorities, I got the impression that some of them are hesitant to use these powers, partly because of a lack of capacity and a lack of legal expertise. Firstly, what will you do to address this? And secondly, is there an opportunity for local authorities to share resources and legal expertise to enable the more effective use of compulsory purchase orders? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784185 46 Cy 2026-11-05T10:06:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1258&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Yes, thank you very much. These compulsory purchase orders are a complex process, as I understand it—extremely difficult and intricate, requiring quite a lot of expertise before a council ventures into that space. But it is one of a range of powers available to local authorities, and it is available if they feel that it's appropriate to use it. And it can play an important role where discussions and support have not managed to persuade owners to allow their properties to be brought back into use. So, we have been supporting local authorities who want to take these kinds of steps and there is an enforcement fund available in the area of empty properties. There is financial support available via that fund. And also, the previous Government developed a handbook on empty properties and I believe that—. Certainly, the previous administration should be praised for bringing practical guidance forward in that empty properties handbook. We may want to keep that under continuous review. But it's the complexity here that is a large part of the problem, and in terms of having some sort of centralised pool of expertise to assist with that, I think that that would take us in the right direction, and Unnos could be a part of that. Now, you will know that I have a vision about increasing the social housing supply, and for me to have that entirely clear focus, we need a body that's at arm's length from Government that can drive that agenda forward. Indeed, this committee in the previous Senedd supported that idea and Unnos is a part of the Welsh Government's programme now. And one of the powers, or measures, or one of the things that Unnos could do would be to create a pool of national expertise that would then assist local authorities and so on to use the powers that are already available in a more appropriate manner. I don't know if Richard, who is leading on the Unnos programme, wants to talk a little more about that. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784219 47 En 2026-11-05T10:09:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1439&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4285 Richard Baker Baker, Richard Yes, thank you, Minister. When I started my professional career, CPOs, you were doing them every week, and there was expertise there across the piece. CPOs have dwindled in their use; the expertise has gone, basically. They've left the profession, retired, whatever, and it hasn't been a core part of people coming in. So, that's the reality. So, we do need to make better use, then, of the expertise that's available, and if you can get better value out of that—. So, I think having it in a central resource that can support nationally is definitely a way forward, I think, and we can also bring other people through into the profession, then, to support that. So, it's definitely the way forward. I think you mentioned compulsory sales orders. I think that the Scottish consultation has understood that that's not easy, because it goes back to the same point that you're still relying on local authorities and their having the ability and the capacity to drive that forward. And there have been particular things around interfering in individual owners' property rights, et cetera. So, it's quite complex. But there is work going on to try and streamline and simplify the CPO process. There is a Law Commission report, a Law Commission of England and Wales report, due to be published in early 2027, which will bring out some recommendations on how to simplify the CPO process. For me, personally, a CPO process linked to one house is a bit of a hammer to crack a nut, to be honest with you. I think we need to look at other ways, one, to identify who the owners are. That's the key piece of work, I think. In terms of empty homes and such, the big problem a lot of the time is that you don't know who the owner is due to history and going through probate. I think if we're able to do something around that, identifying the owners and then to engage with the owners, we'll make some progress. You will always have to have CPOs, particularly in terms of strategic developments and commercial, and we are supporting local authorities on CPOs and trying to drive forward on the strategic perspective. For local authorities, it's a difficult ask when you're just looking at it for an individual property, and the costs and the resources you need to commit to that piece of work. I do think pooling the resource is the way forward. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784267 48 En 2026-11-05T10:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1476&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784269 49 Cy 2026-11-05T10:11:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1579&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian And we can do that before establishing Unnos, of course. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784270 50 Cy 2026-11-05T10:11:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1582&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12164 12164 Elyn Stephens https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12164 Stephens, Elyn Yes, of course. I was going to ask, as a supplementary to that point that you made there, some people from the local authorities said that they have been using genealogists. Do you see that being a part of the future in terms of finding who the owners of these empty properties are? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784272 51 En 2026-11-05T10:12:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1602&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4285 Richard Baker Baker, Richard Yes, and we have discussed that with them before. It's a case of trying to identify—. Again, I don't think every local authority needs to. I think that, if we can possibly work regionally, or whatever, with local authorities working together, and obviously engaging with us in terms of how we can engage those specialist services to get into the heir hunters, or whatever, that sphere, to identify the ownership.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784278 52 En 2026-11-05T10:12:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1632&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. David, do you have a question?  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784280 53 En 2026-11-05T10:12:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1636&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12159 12159 David Hughes https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12159 Hughes, David No, no. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784282 54 En 2026-11-05T10:12:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1637&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo No. Okay. Rebeca, on data. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784283 55 Cy 2026-11-05T10:12:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1641&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Thank you, Chair. The problem of the quality of data was raised during our inquiry. Does the Government have any plans around the intention to improve the data on empty homes? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784271 56 Cy 2026-11-05T10:12:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1655&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I see that this is a problem and a challenge. I've asked officials to consider what we can do, and I've also asked them to discuss with Data Cymru, which is now part of the Welsh Local Government Association, to improve the way that data is gathered on empty residential properties in the first instance. It is important, isn't it, not to depend fully on the council tax valuation list and that there is a consistent definition of 'empty residential property'. What exactly is that definition? Perhaps we think that it's easy, but I'm sure that when you start thinking about it in detail, it raises all kinds of considerations. But, certainly, we do want better data, and that would help the work of providing consistency and reorganising plans too. And perhaps we need to look at how to measure the success of efforts to reuse properties. It's one thing to identify the empty property, do we also need data to show what success there has been with the current schemes to reuse properties, and in my case specifically, as public property? I think that perhaps we need to do both of those things and to get that specific information. I know that we need to be sensitive with sharing some specific kinds of data, but I hope that this work with Data Cymru will bear fruit and will bring forward specific options for us. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784292 57 Cy 2026-11-05T10:14:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1766&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784294 58 En 2026-11-05T10:14:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1768&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Okay? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784295 59 En 2026-11-05T10:14:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1769&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Fine, yes. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784297 60 En 2026-11-05T10:14:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1770&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Marc. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784298 61 Cy 2026-11-05T10:14:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1772&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc I have a question about social housing. What role do you anticipate there being for social housing initiatives and co-operative initiatives to develop empty properties to bring them back into use? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784059 62 Cy 2026-11-05T10:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1776&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784057 63 Cy 2026-11-05T10:15:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1791&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Community-led housing—. That's the term that we use now, in a way, community-led housing. That's a priority for me, and in the new general strategy, you will see that the emphasis on supporting communities to take ownership of homes in their communities is a very important element, particularly in rural communities, and communities where the Welsh language is under threat in those rural areas. I think that community-led housing is a very good solution in enabling communities to create two, three, four properties—very small-scale developments that might not be viable for anyone else, but the community can find sources of funding to enable them in the first instance to develop those, and then to let them according to their own rules, and then rent comes back in. And then you can go forth and find more. It's not a new idea. I remember Cymdeithas Tai Gwynedd, Gwynedd housing association, being established when I was at college. That was quite a long time ago, and I remember buying a share then in that housing association in Gwynedd. And they're still going, and they own around 100 homes in the Nantlle valley at the moment. That has included identifying empty properties and bringing those properties back into use. So, there is certainly a role within this theme of community-led housing for them, too, to be doing more in terms of bringing houses back into use. The community right to buy Bill will—. There is an emphasis in that on assets, not necessarily homes or housing, but on community assets that a community perhaps would want to see being brought back into community use, but that could be empty property as well. It could be an empty pub or an empty shop. I will be making a statement on this new community right to buy Bill next week. That would support that kind of thing. And, of course, the community, in taking ownership of a shop, could decide that perhaps, above the shop, they wanted to rent out that property to a member of the community. There are very good examples of that happening in the Ogwen valley. Partneriaeth Ogwen has successfully done that. I very much hope that this new Bill will enable far more communities and empower communities to do more of this, particularly in those rural areas. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784065 64 Cy 2026-11-05T10:18:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=1991&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc If I may just come back on that, the problem, always, with community enterprises is capital, or lack of capital, because these are mainly poor areas, disadvantaged areas, without capital; they have a great deal of wealth when it comes to people but not in terms of money. You need money to buy and to renovate properties. Is there something—? I don't expect to get an exclusive preview here, but it would be good to know that there will be capital available to help communities to do this work, not just warm words. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784067 65 Cy 2026-11-05T10:19:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2032&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Well, this Bill won't—. It isn't likely to be establishing a capital fund. The financial situation that we face is so, so challenging that we can't currently go along that route, but we will have an ambition to see that kind of fund being developed. And certainly, community groups can access funding from the National Lottery. For example, there is Ty'n Llan in Llandwrog. That initiative, a community-led initiative to transform a pub into a community pub, has received significant funding from the National Lottery, but with community leaders being able to do that. What I want to see is communities that perhaps lack those leaders at present being supported increasingly by the local government and us to be able to gather the funds needed. I don't know whether officials want to come in. They're desperate to come in. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783789 66 Cy 2026-11-05T10:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2076&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783793 67 En 2026-11-05T10:20:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2104&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4285 Richard Baker Baker, Richard I completely agree. The consultation is not going to shy away from that issue. It isn't just about the Bill; it's about how do you implement the Bill, how do you support communities to take advantage of the Bill. We had a community assets piece of work published back at the end of the year, I think, by the previous Government. Again, it flagged that, yes, we need the legislation, but we also need, to support that, resource. As the Minister mentioned, communities, particularly those deprived communities, need the professional support to drive those forward, because those assets are probably more important in those communities than anywhere else, and they're the ones who lack the support and the wherewithal, possibly, to take that forward. So, clearly, there will be work done on that, and I'm sure it will come back in the consultation. The one other thing I would flag on your original question around what we're doing is that placemaking plans are really important. Obviously, the Welsh Government has been funding placemaking plans for towns across Wales, engaging with communities. Again, that's about identifying those assets. It's an opportunity to identify those assets that are of particular community value and how they can then be taken forward and redeveloped in a sustainable way. I think what we want to ensure is that whatever we're doing is sustainable for the long term, supporting the communities. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783806 68 En 2026-11-05T10:21:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2185&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 9389 Stuart Fitzgerald Fitzgerald, Stuart For me, if I may, Cabinet Minister, it's quite important that our current grants and loan funding, our capital funds, don't preclude community groups from accessing them. For the social housing grant, for example, a community group can apply to that. So, looking at our strategy, making sure that we don't inadvertently preclude a community group from accessing a particular fund, is important. We'll have another look at that. I think you talked about making sure that the skills and the capacity around that community group are available and they're supported to discharge that funding, if you like, and capital in the right way. For example, on the social housing grant, there's a requirement for a community group to partner with RSLs, for example, to access that. So, there are those kinds of things in place just to make sure that those skills and the capacity is there. But rather than more funds, I think it's about making sure that our significant amount of funds and loans don't preclude community groups from applying and using them. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783809 69 Cy 2026-11-05T10:22:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2253&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc Okay. Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783812 70 En 2026-11-05T10:22:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2254&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. David, we'll take one last question, and then we'll move on to everybody's favourite, which is planning. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783814 71 En 2026-11-05T10:23:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2260&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12159 12159 David Hughes https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12159 Hughes, David On development, is there any way that we're going to develop age-friendly, safer communities? Because back home in Merthyr, a lot of older people are saying that they don't see any age-friendly places being built that are safe for older people to live in a community together. They're put into flats that are used by all types of people and they find it very difficult. So, is the Government going to look at age-friendly developments? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783817 72 Cy 2026-11-05T10:23:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2302&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Within our strategy, there will be a section about the exact issue that you've raised, namely the need to identify specific groups of people and to meet their specific needs. There is a fund called housing with care; that fund means that there is support available within a development. But the way that councils develop their schemes relies on their local housing needs assessments. Within those, there's an opportunity for local authorities to identify the type of mix of homes that will be needed in their communities for the future. That type of thing does come out clearly as a call—for there to be housing developments for people over a certain age, and many of those are available. We're eager to see local authorities and housing groups taking that route, and also working with health as well, in order to bring the health side into things. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784265 73 Cy 2026-11-05T10:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2376&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784268 74 En 2026-11-05T10:25:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2395&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784281 75 En 2026-11-05T10:25:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2428&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784285 76 En 2026-11-05T10:26:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2448&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784286 77 Cy 2026-11-05T10:26:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2449&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784266 78 En 2026-11-05T10:25:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2397&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 9389 Stuart Fitzgerald Fitzgerald, Stuart The housing with care fund definitely is a fund that tackles this particular area, but the Welsh development quality standard includes the lifetime homes element of that to ensure that anything we build—any new-build houses—are appropriate for that kind of whole lifetime, including over-55s, as you pointed out. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784273 79 En 2026-11-05T10:25:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2421&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12159 12159 David Hughes https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12159 Hughes, David For my age. [Laughter.] Thank you.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784279 80 En 2026-11-05T10:25:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2426&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you, David. I'd like to thank the Cabinet Minister and her officials for their evidence on empty properties and advise that they will receive a transcript of the meeting to check for its factual accuracy. We'll now move on to the general scrutiny session with the Cabinet Minister. There will be a quick change of personnel.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784284 81 En 2026-11-05T10:26:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2446&l=en 261105-2 2. Follow-up inquiry into Empty Properties: Scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784288 82 En 2026-11-05T10:27:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2499&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo We're now going to move on to a general scrutiny session. Could I just ask that the personnel who have just come in introduce themselves for the purposes of the record? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784290 83 En 2026-11-05T10:27:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2508&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3636 Tracey Breheny Breheny, Tracey Bore da, bawb. Tracey Breheny, director of local government and planning, on a job share. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784291 84 En 2026-11-05T10:27:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2515&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 1101 Reg Kilpatrick Kilpatrick, Reg Bore da, bawb. Reg Kilpatrick, director of local government and planning, on a job share. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784293 85 En 2026-11-05T10:27:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2520&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3111 Neil Hemington Hemington, Neil Bore da, bawb. Neil Hemington, chief planner. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784296 86 En 2026-11-05T10:27:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2524&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 2345 Alyson Francis Francis, Alyson Bore da. Alyson Francis, director of housing and regeneration. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784299 87 En 2026-11-05T10:27:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2529&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you so much. Just so everybody's aware, we will call a 10-minute break once we get through the first section, but for now, if we could just open the floor up to questions on housing. We've got Mike on delivering social and affordable housing. Have you got a question? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784300 88 En 2026-11-05T10:27:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2546&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike I've got two questions, actually, but they're both very quick. One of the easiest ways of increasing the amount of social housing is buying back ex-council houses. Some local authorities are doing it, some are not. Are you going to promote that as a way of getting social housing available? And the second question I was going to ask is this: we're losing housing to Airbnb, which is the one thing that is causing absolute chaos in both the economy and in housing, so are you intending to legislate regarding Airbnb? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784304 89 Cy 2026-11-05T10:28:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2584&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for that question. As you'll see, I have officials from local government, planning and housing with me to discuss this portfolio in its entirety. Alyson is here in terms of housing. Your first point with regard to increasing the supply of social housing is exactly right. I agree with you entirely. The clear focus of this Government is on increasing the supply of social housing. As you know, Mike, half of that supply of social housing was lost during the 1980s and we've never returned to that critical level. That is, to a great extent, due to the policy at that time with regard to the right for people to buy their council house. So, we've lost a great deal of that council housing and we haven't been able to resupply that housing. When there are council homes that come up for sale, in an estate in particular, then it is something that social landlords look at immediately, to see whether it is possible for them to be moving forward to acquire that home and to bring it back into use. It isn't quite as easy as that, of course, because very often there is a need for significant upgrading work to be done on some of those homes. You will see, sometimes, when you go around, housing estates where you see where the work has been done on social homes that are still in public ownership, but the same investment hasn't been made in the privately owned homes. So, this is a genuine opportunity, when they do come up for sale, for the council or the landlord to do that work. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783981 90 Cy 2026-11-05T10:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2676&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783988 91 En 2026-11-05T10:31:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2740&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784000 92 En 2026-11-05T10:32:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2855&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783989 93 En 2026-11-05T10:31:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2742&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian What was the second question, sorry? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783990 94 En 2026-11-05T10:31:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2744&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike Airbnb, which is taking houses out of privately rented. I was asking are you going to bring any legislation to control it, as you control HMOs. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783992 95 Cy 2026-11-05T10:31:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2755&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian In the co-operation agreement during the previous Government, where I was the designated Member working with Labour Ministers, we did bring forward legislation to enable county councils to ask for planning permission for properties that would shift away from being permanent homes or dwellings and turned into Airbnbs. Eryri national park has used that legislation. There is a need for anyone who wants to sell or change the use of a home—. They can do that. I would want to see more authorities using these powers. So, the legislation is there, Mike, and I agree with you entirely that we are losing too much of the current housing stock for that kind of use. So, my message is use the powers that are there already. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783993 96 En 2026-11-05T10:32:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2836&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Marc. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783994 97 Cy 2026-11-05T10:32:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2839&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc Are we moving on to pollution? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783997 98 En 2026-11-05T10:32:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2843&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo No. I've got you down for social and affordable housing. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783998 99 En 2026-11-05T10:32:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2846&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc Have you? Okay. I need to do my homework. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783999 100 En 2026-11-05T10:32:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2849&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo I can move on. I've got two others. Rebeca.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784001 101 Cy 2026-11-05T10:33:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2856&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc My question has been asked. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784002 102 En 2026-11-05T10:33:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2860&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Obviously, we've heard about Unnos already, and I think that vision is something that's really exciting, has the potential to really change our communities and act as an enabler in terms of housing needs. I'm just wondering if we have any information at the moment regarding how you see the relationship working between Unnos and local authorities, and also whether there's a chance, when developing supply chains around Unnos, to support local construction businesses. Can we have those assurances that local companies will be used, and whether there's potential to use the schemes for apprenticeships for local people as well, and whether that's been a consideration? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784003 103 Cy 2026-11-05T10:33:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2907&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for that question on Unnos. I will be making an oral statement in the Senedd on 17 November, which is the week after next. I will be setting out more information about the direction that we're taking when it comes to Unnos. I will be talking about what Unnos will do, and other issues around how we will set it up and so on. The big vision is to drive that clear focus on increasing the social housing supply. Within that, it's important for us to have the right skills in place, and there are great problems, as you will know, within the construction sector at present. So, before establishing Unnos, that discussion is taking place between me and Cefin Campbell, the Deputy Minister who has responsibility for skills. He's undertaking a skills audit, and work is under way, and I as housing Minister will put a great emphasis on developing skills within the construction sector, not just for the work of building new homes, but for the work of retrofitting and the work of bringing empty properties back into use as well. So, that will certainly be a part of what we're looking at. Now, in terms of small construction companies, the SMEs in the area of building, I think there's greater scope for us to support them, which is why we have asked the development bank to bring options forward that will support the SMEs in the building sector to take greater advantage of the grants for vacant properties, for instance, because they're so very important, particularly in rural areas. These small local companies are able to contribute a great deal not just to creating more homes, but in order to bring those skills forward via apprenticeships and so forth, and also, of course, to support the local economy with plumbers and carpenters, and so on, being pulled in. So, I do want to see that happening. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784159 104 Cy 2026-11-05T10:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=2976&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784240 105 En 2026-11-05T10:39:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3257&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784229 106 En 2026-11-05T10:37:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3097&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Elyn next, and then we'll go to Peter. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784230 107 Cy 2026-11-05T10:37:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3099&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12164 12164 Elyn Stephens https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12164 Stephens, Elyn Thank you, Chair. Minister, you touched on this in the previous response, but I'm excited about the ambition to retrofit and to renovate the older housing stock that we have in Wales, and the potential there for so many people to benefit from new green technologies. But, to realise that ambition, we need the workforce and the skills. Are you confident that we have the skills and the capacity in Wales to achieve this on the scale that we need? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784235 108 Cy 2026-11-05T10:37:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3128&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for that question, and I do think that the area of retrofitting and making our homes more energy efficient is so very important, and it is a priority for this Government. The emphasis is shifting for us as a Government. We're eager to move to an approach that encompasses areas rather than the type of housing or the type of tenure. So, we're moving towards the area-based approach, and we have a pilot scheme happening around that now. As part of that pilot, the skills side is going to be given specific attention because we now need, on the economic side, to be aware of the opportunities that are arising with the whole retrofit agenda. As well as contributing to decarbonisation, retrofit brings the bills down, and at a time that is extremely challenging when it comes to the cost of living, anything that this Government can do to help people to bring their bills down is absolutely essential. So, that is part of the reason why we have this great push. But it's true to say that the fact that the UK Government scheme—ECO4 I believe it was—came to an end very quickly had an impact on the workforce. That was extremely unfortunate and it is going to take us some time to return to the level that we need to be at, of course, but it is a priority. Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784241 109 En 2026-11-05T10:39:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3260&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Peter.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784242 110 En 2026-11-05T10:39:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3261&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Cabinet Minister, we talked in the earlier session a bit around delivery of the 20,000 additional social homes. Now, it’s a commendable figure, and we all want to see it. We need to see those houses. We all have youngsters queuing up for places. But I've met with developers on a couple of occasions and asked them collectively what the industry believes they can deliver. They're talking more in the single figures of thousands. I wondered what your expectation was for the delivery of new affordable housing via the development process through LDPs. Are you confident that they're going to get where you expect them to? Some of the things that were constraining them is access to land, slowness of local development plans—all of those things—so, how do all their constraints fit with your expectations? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784036 111 En 2026-11-05T10:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3276&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784037 112 Cy 2026-11-05T10:40:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3326&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. The previous Government made a start on this, with the target. They had a target of 20,000 over a five-year period. There are statistics that have been published recently to show that, well, perhaps they haven't reached that exactly, but there has been significant progress made in the supply of social housing. I'll ask Alyson to give the exact statistics in a moment or two. We are, therefore, building on—pardon the pun—a trajectory that already exists and a pipeline that already exists. We're not just starting from scratch; this has been developing. The delivery trajectory for the sector does demonstrate that there will be, next year, over 4,000 homes added to the supply, which is a record number. I think that it is very important for us to maintain that momentum. There are plans in the pipeline that make me optimistic. Although we have set a very ambitious target, we have to be ambitious. There are barriers, yes, and perhaps we will discuss some of those, but there is a focus on unlocking and overcoming those barriers. That's what Unnos will help us to do, but, even before Unnos, we are now working on some of those barriers that have been identified in a number of different areas, and perhaps we can discuss some of those.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784178 113 En 2026-11-05T10:42:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3445&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784179 114 En 2026-11-05T10:42:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3444&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Alyson, can you just fill us in on some of the data, in case I get it wrong? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784181 115 En 2026-11-05T10:42:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3447&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 2345 Alyson Francis Francis, Alyson The latest stats were published last week and they included housing delivery, in the official stats, for the previous year, and, as the Minister rightly said, a record number. So, they are continuing to increase year by year. What we've also published alongside that is our management information, and those figures from April to September this year were 1,600 units. So, a good start for this year. As the Minister has talked about in the session, there are a number of different organisations that are contributing to delivering the target. So, rightly, private developers are one of them, registered social landlords are another. You said the target was ambitious. It is ambitious, but I think what we've got is a really ambitious sector as well, which is why we are continuing to see the delivery that we've seen, and engagement—really strong engagement—from all different parts of the sector as well. They are really good foundations that we are continuing to deliver against. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784184 116 En 2026-11-05T10:44:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3520&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784186 117 En 2026-11-05T10:44:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3521&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian We can provide a note, if you like, on the actual stats, because there's more that we've analysed. We can do that. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784189 118 En 2026-11-05T10:44:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3529&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 2345 Alyson Francis Francis, Alyson Yes, published last week. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784191 119 En 2026-11-05T10:44:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3531&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian They're out there. Yes, last week. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784192 120 En 2026-11-05T10:44:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3533&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12159 12159 David Hughes https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12159 Hughes, David Can I ask, does that count the student buildings, like the new flats that are bought? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784196 121 En 2026-11-05T10:44:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3541&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian No. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784197 122 En 2026-11-05T10:44:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3542&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12159 12159 David Hughes https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12159 Hughes, David They're not there. So, it's housing, is it? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784198 123 En 2026-11-05T10:44:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3545&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian This is social housing. It's housing for tenants who pay that social rent to RSLs. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784405 124 En 2026-11-05T10:44:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3554&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 2345 Alyson Francis Francis, Alyson In perpetuity, yes. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784406 125 En 2026-11-05T10:44:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3547&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian And forever— 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784200 126 Cy 2026-11-05T10:44:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3560&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I'll just explain that I've changed the nature of the target as compared with the one that the previous Government had. That 20,000 target only includes homes that will be there in perpetuity for use by social housing tenants. It doesn't include plans that came under the previous target, which did include a few things that had to do with affordable housing, but affordable housing that wouldn't continue to be available for people in their communities as council house tenants. So, the fact that we've tightened the target makes it slightly more challenging again. But, for me, there's no point in developing this huge new supply of social housing unless we can retain it as social housing for the future, as this committee has talked about. And this committee has talked about setting a target of 20 per cent of the housing sector in Wales becoming social housing in due course. So, the 20,000 target that we as a Government have set contributes to that, but it's not the end of the story either. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 783782 127 Cy 2026-11-05T10:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3576&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784301 128 En 2026-11-05T10:46:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3650&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Are you okay? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784336 129 En 2026-11-05T10:46:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3651&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12159 12159 David Hughes https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12159 Hughes, David Yes. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784337 130 En 2026-11-05T10:46:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3653&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Marc, do you want to go on to pollution advice? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784302 131 En 2026-11-05T10:46:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3655&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc This is the one I thought I was going to be asking. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784303 132 Cy 2026-11-05T10:46:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3659&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc Phosphates have been a major topic of conversation in many areas, including my area in Fflint Wrecsam, where the Dee valley has found them an issue. Samples taken by Natural Resources Wales have accounted for the problem in a way. They see them as a problem. But, perhaps in contrast with other areas, the Environment Agency samples in the same river, and their samples are significantly lower in the Dee. There's a suggestion by Wrexham council that they're going to be using those samples to be able to unblock the logjam that there has been in terms of planning in the Wrexham area. So, the question I have is whether it's a problem for NRW that we have here in dealing with this, rather than a phosphates problem. Perhaps it doesn't touch on your portfolio responsibilities, but it does have a major impact. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784320 133 Cy 2026-11-05T10:47:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3727&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Yes, it does. I don't know a great deal about the specific Fflint Wrecsam case you're talking about, but I'll have a look at it. But, in terms of the impact of nutrients and the assessments, that is something that does have an impact in several parts of Wales on the delivery of housing and social housing. We have to find solutions, don't we, and those solutions will also have to be taking the pollution into account and the environmental side in addition.  I have had several discussions with Llyr Gruffydd, who is the Minister for rural resilience and sustainability, and we have created a nutrients efficiency and resilience group, which brings people from NRW and the relevant agencies together around a table, including people from the housing sector as well. They are currently working on guidance, but also looking at the nutrients calculator, which is something new. So, they are looking at that, which is relevant to your question, but they're also looking at mitigation within the catchment area, and so forth. So, there is work taking place on that, because I'm very aware that this is holding things up.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784322 134 En 2026-11-05T10:49:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3839&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I don't know if Neil wants to add to that. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784329 135 En 2026-11-05T10:49:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3842&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3111 Neil Hemington Hemington, Neil Yes, certainly, I can add to that. There are a number of pieces of work that are ongoing to try and address the issue. I suppose one of the most interesting and most important ones, which is going to be published shortly, is that NRW are producing what they're calling catchment nutrient reduction plans. They will be publishing those shortly for the Cleddau and the Loughor as the first two, and it's going to be an iterative process. From that, we'll be able to start to look at not just, if you like, nutrients arising from development, but nutrients more generally and what needs to be done to get that river back into a favourable conservation status. Once you start on that sort of route, potentially the requirement for nutrient neutrality that is placed on developers becomes a lesser burden, because they just have to demonstrate that they're not going to, if you like, cause a deviation from the trajectory for improvement. There are a number of things that we are doing across the sector. Ministers are working together on this, officials are working together on this, we're working together with the sector. We're also exploring things like a de minimis approach, certainly for social housing. In many cases, you'll know that the occupants of social housing are already in the catchment, so if there are nutrients coming from that population, it's already accounted for. So, are there things we can do to give local authorities the confidence to release those applications? So, there is ongoing work, but it is challenging in terms of delivery of housing and delivering the 20,000 target. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784321 136 En 2026-11-05T10:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3876&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784339 137 En 2026-11-05T10:50:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3935&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Yes, it's one of the barriers. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784338 138 Cy 2026-11-05T10:51:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3938&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784342 139 En 2026-11-05T10:51:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=3939&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo I'm just going to follow up on that. I'm going to declare that I've raised this in the Chamber in my capacity as an MS in Carmarthenshire. It sounds like we're moving in the right area. I think the concern that I have is are we moving with pace. If I look at Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire, we've got quite a lot of builders looking to build. Order books are full for socially affordable housing, and the concern that they have, as do I, is if they can't actually get on with this work, not only will we not hit the targets that we've set ourselves, but then we're going to have a massive hit to the economy as well. Because these business are already discussing laying off ground workers, block workers, bricklayers, first-fix carpenters. I just want understand what the pace is behind it. I spoke to somebody who was discussing a project in Herefordshire where they build lagoons, if you like, around these estates, that actually capture the leakage and deal with the nutrient neutrality in a way that is beneficial for the environment, the building, the construction company, but also satisfies all the regulations. I think there needs to be a bit more clarity and transparency. Until I came here today, I didn't realise that there was effectively a task group consisting of NRW and builders. I'd like to see a bit more transparency around that, but also a bit more clarity around the pace at which we're moving. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784341 140 En 2026-11-05T10:52:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4032&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3111 Neil Hemington Hemington, Neil Just in terms of pace and impact, NRW and ourselves selected the Cleddau and the Loughor for a reason, because of the impacts in those areas. There are other areas in Wales that are impacted, but they have other choices around development because they have parts of the area that aren't necessarily impacted. The other interesting sort of development in this space is some of the work that Pembrokeshire have been doing themselves. Pembrokeshire County Council has a county farm estate. It's looking to create a mitigation scheme through that landholding that it has, which will allow development to take place. It's about introducing things like riparian buffers, taking a contribution from the developer to pay for that sort of work. Some of the councils are getting on with the issue and addressing that issue as a matter of pace, particularly where they are impacting in the way you describe. In Carmarthenshire, their local development plan is going through the process and is nearly at the end stage. We've managed to work with NRW and the council to ensure that that plan can progress, which will then start to release sites when they have local solutions available. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784347 141 En 2026-11-05T10:53:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4097&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Just as a follow-up to that—I think Marc mentioned it, and also Elyn at some point—are we taking that best practice from those specific councils and using that as a template to drive forward what's quite clearly a major issue? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784348 142 Cy 2026-11-05T10:53:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4112&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian That's the purpose—. I was clear that this group had to be drawing on real-life examples on the ground to identify what needs to be done in different situations and to learn those lessons so that they become part of the national package of work that needs to be done, and there are several different methods of undertaking the mitigation work. But there is progress being made, I hope. Because this is such a barrier to the construction of new homes, it has to be a clear focus, and it is a clear focus for us, because that target of 20,000 depends on unlocking the situations that you've mentioned.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784349 143 En 2026-11-05T10:54:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4171&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Great. Marc. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784358 144 Cy 2026-11-05T10:54:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4172&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc In terms of this example from Pembrokeshire, could I ask you to share that with us as a committee? Because that sounds like it would be something that would be very useful for us in Fflint Wrecsam, for instance.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784340 145 Cy 2026-11-05T10:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4176&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784364 146 Cy 2026-11-05T10:59:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4461&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784344 147 Cy 2026-11-05T10:55:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4183&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Yes, and there will be further information about the catchment nutrient reduction plans in due course as well.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784345 148 En 2026-11-05T10:55:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4197&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Elyn, do you have a question on legislation? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784346 149 En 2026-11-05T10:55:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4201&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12164 12164 Elyn Stephens https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12164 Stephens, Elyn I don't think I do. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784350 150 En 2026-11-05T10:55:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4204&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Okay. Does anyone have a question on legislation they'd like to ask? No. Can I ask a question on building safety and remediation, if that's okay? I guess the question is what progress on remediation do you expect from private developers. We're obviously hearing and seeing cases where bodies and organisations and groups of individuals are coming to us saying that they're banging their heads against the wall. We just want to know, as a department, what are you doing. When do you think that you will get on top of all of these? And then, part of that is around the building safety Act and how that plays into it. Drawing on my previous experience as head of compliance for purpose-built student accommodation, I just sometimes get worried when I see—. We keep hearing the same stories all the time about private stakeholders and developers not getting on with the job they're meant to be doing. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784351 151 Cy 2026-11-05T10:56:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4279&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I'm equally frustrated about the remediation work as a result of the Grenfell tragedy. It's years since that major tragedy and we're still waiting to see this work being completed. I have been very clear with the developers. I have met with the 11 who are part of the contract with the Welsh Government. I've met every one of them on screen. I have given them an entirely clear message, namely that I expect them to have begun the work on at least one of their buildings in every development in Wales by the end of the month. My officials are monitoring this with a great deal of care, and I'm glad to say that the majority of developers seem to have been making good progress towards ensuring that this work begins. I can't go into details, obviously, but I do know that my officials are looking at this forensically and that they are meeting regularly with the developers, and I will be making a statement in the Senedd in the new year. I've made it totally clear that if developers do not meet the deadline I have set for them for the end of this year, then I will need to know exactly why and what has stood in their way. I've also made it totally clear that in the new year, I will be naming the companies or developers who have not been able to meet the requirements placed upon them within the contract. Therefore, it is extremely frustrating. I hope you can see that this Government is very robust in terms of the messaging that we have been giving to developers, and continue to give developers, and that we are doing absolutely everything within our ability to progress things as quickly as we can. It's just very disappointing that we're still in this situation today. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784363 152 En 2026-11-05T10:59:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=4437&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. I think that's the reassurance that I need. As I said, as someone who's worked in the industry, it is quite frustrating that we still see these instances occurring, but thank you for that response, Cabinet Minister. Are there any other questions from any other Members on anything? No. Okay. Can we call a break for 10 minutes? I think everybody could do with a comfort break. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784365 153 Cy 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning I The meeting adjourned between 10:59 and 11:13. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784306 154 Cy 2026-11-05T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=-35124&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784311 155 En 2026-11-05T11:13:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5299&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo We're going to move on to planning now. Rebeca, you have the first question. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784313 156 Cy 2026-11-05T11:13:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5307&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Thank you very much. In terms of prioritising applications for affordable housing, do you believe that there needs to be a consistent method across Wales for this process? And how do you feel that the capacity in terms of local authority planning departments affects these applications? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784314 157 Cy 2026-11-05T11:14:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5330&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for that question. That's extremely important, that we send out the message that we want to see plans including a strong element of social housing as we move on. I think I'll ask Neil to share a little of the work that has been happening recently around this.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784315 158 En 2026-11-05T11:14:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5364&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3111 Neil Hemington Hemington, Neil Affordable housing is obviously one of our priorities in terms of policy as well. We work very closely across local government housing and planning, both within Welsh Government and at the local authority level, and a key part of that is the evidence base that local authorities have in terms of the local housing market assessment. So, each local housing authority produces its own local housing market assessment, based on a common methodology, so we can actually start to identify how much affordable housing and how much market housing is needed in a particular area. That's then followed through into the local development plan process, where we set targets for affordable housing and targets for market housing and that's locally generated and they will seek contributions from market schemes towards affordable housing. What we've identified is that, actually, if you're purely reliant on the market housing to generate your social or affordable housing, you won't get to 20,000. So, there's an awful lot more, if you like, support going into the sector for social housing-led schemes, and similarly we've been encouraging local authorities to have what we're calling affordable housing-led allocations in their LDP. So, the first authority to try that, and they're in examination at the moment, is Monmouthshire County Council, where all of their housing sites have at least 50 per cent affordable housing associated with them. So, we're seeing that as a way to progress the amount of affordable housing. We also have policies that allow exception sites for affordable housing with no limits. So, there's another way to bring land towards delivering social homes. So, there's a lot going on. I would say, generally, in my experience, most local planning authorities and local authorities are very supportive of affordable housing schemes and will work to get those applications through the system as quickly as possible, regardless of the resourcing constraints that some of them face. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784095 159 En 2026-11-05T11:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5376&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784309 160 En 2026-11-05T11:16:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5489&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. I guess just a follow-up question to that, really: are we taking forward the recommendations made by the Royal Town Planning Institute Cymru in its report on public sector planning resources in Wales, and, if so, how and when? I guess that's the question. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784310 161 Cy 2026-11-05T11:17:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5506&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you. This is an important report that was commissioned by the previous Government, by the Minister. I believe it was Jayne Bryant who commissioned this work, if I remember correctly. It is a very important report regarding the pressures on the planning system in Wales in terms of a lack of resources, in terms of problems recruiting and retaining planners in the planning services in public authorities. As it happens, I met the RTPI, the Royal Town Planning Institute Cymru, this week to discuss the contents of the report and how we can turn the recommendations into action. It will have to happen across Government, working with universities and so on, but, certainly, this is a challenge that we have to tackle. What has happened often, of course, is that planning units within local authorities, within county councils, have become ever smaller as financial pressures have led to cuts, and instead of cutting social services or education, for example, sometimes the pressure is absorbed by the planning units. As well as looking at the recommendations of the report, we have moved swiftly on this, and in July I announced that this Government had earmarked funding to train 19 additional planning officers, so a bursary scheme. And Ceredigion council has been running a bursary scheme to support 12 other such officials, because the problem is even worse in our rural areas in terms of lack of capacity in planning units. Also, there is a need for future planning officers to be entirely aware of the needs of Welsh-speaking communities. Linguistic communities and linguistic planning are important elements for them to be aware of. So, we are working with Cardiff University on strengthening that element as well. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784009 162 Cy 2026-11-05T11:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5676&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784010 163 En 2026-11-05T11:20:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5684&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Peter.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784011 164 En 2026-11-05T11:20:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5687&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Yes, thanks, Chair. I just wanted to come back to the point that Neil was talking about in Monmouthshire and the 50 per cent targets for affordables or tenures. That's commendable. As a past leader of Monmouthshire, I know that, when we put large figures in, the aspiration and the reality are two different things. Because, often, let's face it, how many developers are going to find 50 per cent of their—? It's difficult. Unless you're doing it with an RSL—[Interruption.] Oh, gosh, we're collapsing.  One of the issues, Cabinet Minister, for instance—we had a large site in our area, it was going to be 25 per cent affordables—was viability. It always comes up as a negotiating point by developers, and it traps land for years. So, how much faith can you actually have when local authorities come forward with these aspirations, which are great, but are they deliverable? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784044 165 Cy 2026-11-05T11:21:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5750&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Well, I think that the clear focus of this Government on delivering this work will send that message out clearly. Now, that message might not have been sufficiently clear in the past, but, believe me, that is the message that this Government is sending out. That 20,000 target includes all types of mixed developments as well. But there are challenges, of course. And part of the purpose of establishing Unnos—to return to that—was in order to unlock some of these problems, problems around funding. There are problems with funding. There are problems with land, in terms of land being held back, as you know, and it's about getting more land into the system, and it's about de-risking sites. But because the focus is there, I believe that that will assist us to shift this whole agenda forward. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784047 166 En 2026-11-05T11:22:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5815&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I don't know, Alyson, if you want to come in on this.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784048 167 En 2026-11-05T11:22:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5817&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 2345 Alyson Francis Francis, Alyson Yes, you're right, viability is a common issue that's raised, and something that Unnos will be—. Well, Stuart and Richard, who were here earlier, they're already starting to look at this, and particularly look at how we can group together different developments to make them more attractive, particularly for private finance, in order to address some of those viability issues. And, alongside—. Richard talked about the placemaking plans. So, it's how programmes there, as well, are brought together under a package, which can be financed, and looks more commercially attractive, really.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784049 168 En 2026-11-05T11:23:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5860&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter If I may, one of the other things that I think people are concerned about, and local authorities are concerned about, is the lack of infrastructure we currently have, and we carry on bolting on extra development on existing infrastructure. And when we've tried in local authorities to create new communities, new villages, if you like, that's been resisted in the past, and we've done that in Monmouthshire in the past. Is your Government going to take a different stance on that, recognising that, sometimes, you've just outgrown your infrastructure and you need to think about new communities? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784050 169 Cy 2026-11-05T11:23:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5907&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Well, it's a part of the discussion, certainly. And I think that we return to this idea of placemaking, which is central to the work that we as a Government are undertaking, thanks to the previous Government. I agree with the direction that has already been set there, of looking holistically at the planning system, and at the infrastructure that is required to support housing developments, and so forth. And this concept of entirely new communities is one that can be exciting. Now, it won't work in every part of Wales, of course, but it is exciting for some parts, and so long as developments include services for the community—education services and so forth, and health too. But this is an approach that we could certainly be developing. I don't know if Neil—.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784058 170 En 2026-11-05T11:24:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5975&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3111 Neil Hemington Hemington, Neil So, just something else to add to that. I think there's a lot more we can do within existing settlements as well. So, actually, in some ways, identifying large sites on the edge of a settlement is a comparatively easy thing to do; there's a candidate site process where landowners will come forward. There's a lot more work required to actually look holistically at a settlement and find small sites that come forward that may be attractive to smaller builders or may be attractive to registered social landlords and others to diversify that supply. Of course, it can make better use of existing infrastructure in that way. There's some work that one of the bodies we sponsor, the design commission, have done, looking at specific settlements and how you can identify the land supply within the settlement before you get to urban extensions or new settlements. So, there are things that can be done. There are things that you can use. You can actually engage communities in that process as well to actually make that change. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784020 171 En 2026-11-05T11:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=5976&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784034 172 Cy 2026-11-05T11:29:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6275&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784021 173 En 2026-11-05T11:26:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6038&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Mike, a question on data centres. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784022 174 En 2026-11-05T11:26:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6041&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike Data centres, they're very important. So, please take my belief in that alongside everything I'm going to say. They use a substantial amount of water. They use a substantial amount of electricity. There are sites that are suitable for them, which are mainly coastal, where we have a substantial amount of electricity already being produced. Why does the Welsh Government not identify suitable sites? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784023 175 Cy 2026-11-05T11:26:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6070&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. An important question regarding data centres. Officials are working closely with officials in the economy department and specific officials are looking at digital economy policy to develop a strategic policy framework around data centres. That framework is being developed at the moment, so I can't give you further details on that at the moment, but there are discussions under way. We will be looking at how other nations are looking at data centres, and we'll be learning lessons from those. The National Infrastructure Commission for Wales will be undertaking external work as well, speaking to experts to feed into the framework, and I'll be bringing forward an update to the Senedd before the end of the year. It is an important area for us to be giving significant attention to, and that's being done. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784024 176 En 2026-11-05T11:27:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6149&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike Just to take everything you've just said, you're not going to be identifying sites. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784026 177 En 2026-11-05T11:28:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6157&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Well, there's the process with the national development framework, okay. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784027 178 Cy 2026-11-05T11:28:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6161&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian So, as well as all of that, we have a consultation currently under way about creating a new national development framework for Wales—a framework that will draw together in a spatial way the way that we would like to see Wales developing into the future. That's what that means, simply put. So, it's very important, and I would encourage everybody to participate in that live consultation. That will enable us to start to think strategically in a spatial manner about the energy strategy, the renewable energy strategy, but also matters such as data centres to see—. We do have to look at Wales as a spatial unit, and to think, 'Well, do we have too much of something?', 'Do we have an insufficient amount of something?' That's the kind of discussion, the conversation, that we need to have, and data centres fit into that, I believe. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784029 179 En 2026-11-05T11:29:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6237&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike Okay. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784030 180 En 2026-11-05T11:29:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6237&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Marc, you've got a question on community-led planning. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784032 181 Cy 2026-11-05T11:29:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6241&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc Yes. Community-led planning schemes sound like a good thing, and something that everyone would welcome, but how will this Government ensure that that really happens, and that it's not just a slogan? Because I am concerned that communities feel that planning is something that is forced on them rather than being something that they're a part of. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784392 182 Cy 2026-11-05T11:31:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6356&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784393 183 Cy 2026-11-05T11:31:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6357&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784394 184 Cy 2026-11-05T11:31:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6376&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784395 185 Cy 2026-11-05T11:31:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6377&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784327 186 Cy 2026-11-05T11:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6276&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I agree with you on that final comment, and that's why we as a Government are placing an emphasis on moving towards hearing the voice of communities increasingly within the planning system, but also more generally. That's the idea behind some of the placemaking schemes that we've mentioned. Those can lead towards community representatives playing more of a role in thinking about the future of their communities and the future of their towns. But in terms of the planning itself, I think that, within the statutory process that currently exists, there is a place for the communities to be playing a greater role. So, perhaps we don't need to change the legislation, but we need to change the emphasis and enable local authorities to lead on that community engagement that can happen before developing LDPs, for example, which would then help to foster that better engagement when one perhaps wants to construct homes, because the community has identified a need for homes. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784371 187 Cy 2026-11-05T11:31:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6354&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 350 350 Marc Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=350 Jones, Marc If I may be cynical, the whole framework is already in place, but people don't feel that their voice is being heard, so they don't participate until it's too late. They'll see, 'Oh, there's a planning application to develop hundreds of homes alongside my community.' This is about changing perception, to a large extent. How do we change that? Because I simply don't see planning working at present. It's something that's being done to communities, and we have to change that. I want to know how this Government is going to change that perception, because it's not working at present. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784376 188 Cy 2026-11-05T11:32:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6401&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I agree. That's why we are placing this clear focus on trying to see how we can amplify the voice of the community. There are opportunities, as I said, in the current system, but perhaps the emphasis isn't being placed on completing that small part of the jigsaw and doing it in the right way. We now are thinking about how we move towards that kind of situation where the community does feel that they are part of this right from the outset in looking at the future of their communities. There is good practice out there. Through Felinheli Community Council years ago, we did work with community councillors in pulling together the community, looking at the map of the village, and undertaking a survey of future housing needs in that area and what they were likely to be, and we fed that into the spatial conversation. We had lots of buy-in into that idea, but it did mean that the community council led that process. So, what we want to do as a Government is to encourage more of that kind of activity on a local level. There are things such as citizens' assemblies, perhaps, that we could be thinking about and making it more than just that planning aspect, but around that idea of placemaking and expanding it a little bit to make it more of an exercise that brings communities closer to the decisions that impact the future of their communities. I don't know whether Neil wants to say more about that. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784328 189 En 2026-11-05T11:33:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6513&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3111 Neil Hemington Hemington, Neil There's a lot we can do. We've got a framework when it comes to the primary legislation; we can change the guidance, we can change the regulations, we can take some of the detail out of the process at the moment. If you look at a local development plan, it's generally at least 2 or 3 inches thick and it's full of policies; the bit that people really want to get to is, 'How my area is going to change.' So, can we find a way of looking at the national development framework to create some national policies that apply to things like town centres and then leave a space for the local planning authority and the officers in the local authority who actually work with the communities about where that change is going to happen and how much change they want to see? So, are there things we can strip out and do elsewhere? They're the sorts of conversations we're having at the moment. How do we work where there aren't town and community councils? Because there are large parts of Wales where they don't exist. So, is there another route that we need to get into there? There's lots we can do without going to the primary legislation, and that's what we've been tasked with—identifying those areas and working with people. At the moment we're collecting ideas, so if people have got ideas in terms of how we could do that, we're very open to receiving those. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784004 190 En 2026-11-05T11:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6576&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784005 191 En 2026-11-05T11:35:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6588&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784019 192 En 2026-11-05T11:39:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6863&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784006 193 En 2026-11-05T11:35:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6590&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Peter. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784007 194 En 2026-11-05T11:35:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6591&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Thanks, Chair. One quick question, and it's around extending rural permitted development rights. I just wondered what your view is, or what your Government's intention might be, around extending those development rights around farm buildings and things. Would you see that as a way to go some way towards, perhaps, unlocking affordable opportunities in rural communities? Have you had conversations with the likes of Llyr Gruffydd to think about how it can also help with succession planning and enable old farmers to move out, if you like, and let children move ahead? Have you got a position on that now? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784008 195 Cy 2026-11-05T11:36:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6638&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. This is something that I have been discussing with Llyr Gruffydd. Extending permitted development rights for farm buildings was a part of Plaid Cymru's manifesto. It's there in the programme for government, and therefore we are proceeding with the work. We've asked officials to look in detail at various options, including reviewing the permitted development rights, precisely to do what you're setting out there, in order to support succession within farming families. A research project is being commissioned at present that will bring these options forward. We also have planning officials supporting the red tape review that Llyr Gruffydd is leading on, and also there's a rural development strategy that is being worked on, and we're a central part of that work as well, working across the Government. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784012 196 En 2026-11-05T11:37:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6713&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Good. Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784013 197 En 2026-11-05T11:37:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6716&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Local government, Mike—funding formula review. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784014 198 En 2026-11-05T11:37:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6719&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike The aggregate external finance is calculated by taking into account the ability of councils to raise money, and it's the responsibility of the Government to work out what the need is. That is based upon standard spending assessments. With the standard spending assessment, we always get the aggregate values; we never get the calculations behind them. I've asked for 15 years for those calculations to be made available. I expect your civil servants to tell you it's either not possible or you don't want to do it. But you actually have to have those calculations in order to calculate the standard spending assessment in the first place. Will you provide that information, and make it available on a council basis, so each council can see what the standard spending assessment for each area is and how you got to it? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784015 199 En 2026-11-05T11:38:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6772&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian That's a really good question, and I will turn to my officials, if you don't mind. Go on, Reg. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784016 200 En 2026-11-05T11:38:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6780&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 1101 Reg Kilpatrick Kilpatrick, Reg We publish extensive and detailed information on how we calculate the standard spending assessments. That's all publicly available on the Welsh Government website, and it's called the Green Book. There are a number of spreadsheets that detail by service level, by indicator-based assessment level, including the weightings that apply to each service, including the data that feature in and drive those formulas. So, I would say we do publish a huge amount of information. That comes out every year alongside the settlement, so that those people who are interested—. We can provide a copy to this committee of last year's Green Book, and the other associated data, if that would be of interest. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784017 201 En 2026-11-05T11:39:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6830&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike I'm not asking for the Green Book. I've read through the Green Book. You do these calculations in order to work out standard spending assessments. I don't want the answers that you come out with after you've done those calculations. I know what the formula is. I want to see the numbers you put into that calculation for each service area. That's what I'm asking for, and I keep on asking for it. I'm sure you'll give me another good reason why you can't provide it, but you have it yourself, because you're using it in order to calculate the standard spending assessment in the first place. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784018 202 En 2026-11-05T11:39:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6862&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 1101 Reg Kilpatrick Kilpatrick, Reg I think the information that we do publish will enable people to replicate those calculations. As I say, we publish the weightings, we publish the data that drive the formula, and we publish a detailed document on the methodology as well. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784352 203 En 2026-11-05T11:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6876&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784353 204 En 2026-11-05T11:40:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6878&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian As the Minister, I will look into this. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784354 205 En 2026-11-05T11:40:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6881&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike Thank you. I've had 15 years of asking for this, so I don't expect any great success at this stage. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784355 206 En 2026-11-05T11:40:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6887&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian No, but I need to understand much more about this particular element than I do at the moment. Thank you for raising the profile of that. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784356 207 En 2026-11-05T11:40:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6896&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo I think, as the Chair—and I take Mike's point—and being new to this position, I'd like to know, if that exists, why we can't see it. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784357 208 En 2026-11-05T11:40:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6907&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I will pursue that and maybe even have a briefing. We can prepare a briefing around the way that we calculate the assessments, even, if you wanted to go into that detail. Tracey.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784359 209 En 2026-11-05T11:40:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6924&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3636 Tracey Breheny Breheny, Tracey I was just going to come in on the briefing point, because, Minister, we've made an offer to the committee to undertake a technical briefing, which I think is being picked up by the clerk, so hopefully that will be helpful too.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784360 210 En 2026-11-05T11:41:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6936&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian We'll make sure that that point is covered in that technical briefing.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784361 211 En 2026-11-05T11:41:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=6942&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Thank you, and thank you for taking on the commitment to do that independent review—something that Reg knows I've asked for for many years, and there have been lots of reasons why I've been told it's not worth doing. Perhaps that might prove the case in the end, we don't know, but it's good that it's going to happen. I think a briefing will be really valuable to understand the scope of what the review might look like. Reg, you mentioned indicator-based assessments and things, notional spends—actually, what do they mean? Because actually you don't have to spend to your IBA; it's purely an indicator to help create the picture for each authority. Will the assessment of the formula broaden out a bit wider to assess all of the components that arrive at local authorities' assessments? So, I think that opportunity to meet and have a briefing to help us scope it out will be really useful. I had a couple of questions. I suppose, as a former local government leader, I'm quite anxious about the future of some authorities, because, as I said before, we all know we would like a bigger quantum. We know that's not likely to come, but it's how the cake is carved up, which I'm pleased that we're going to have. But within that cake, we've seen such a variety. I just went through every statement of accounts for every authority, and there are two or three still not published yet. I'm not sure why they haven't published for 2025-26. But you still see these great variations in usable reserves. We know there are purposes for those, and this, that and the other, and lots. But what it demonstrates at a higher level is the unsustainability of some against others, and that's what I'm hoping your review might come to understand: how we can actually make sure that we do have sustainable councils for the future. I wondered if there's been any assessment undertaken of the cumulative impact of Welsh Government policy requirements on councils, because we do expect a lot on councils. They're autonomous. They do their own things. But what assessment have we done? And if that assessment isn't ongoing or isn't complete, how can the Government be confident it is not overburdening councils? Where's the nuance around all of that? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784362 212 Cy 2026-11-05T11:43:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7100&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I'll mention briefly the review of the funding formula, the one that you've welcomed. That work is under way and is being undertaken independently of Government. It's important that that work is done independently of Government. I had a meeting this week with the finance sub-group to discuss the scope for that review. It's a very wide-ranging scope to look at how other countries distribute and allocate funding to councils, and it will look at the different elements. So, that work is being done. It isn't going to change things for the next financial year. It's going to take more time than that. It's a very complex area, as we all know. But in terms of how we ensure that we don't place too much additional pressure on local government, the strategic partnership agreement is a key part of this. Again, thanks to the previous administration, there is now a partnership agreement in existence between local government and central Government, and we have signed that, we have renewed that now in a meeting with the WLGA. The First Minister was there. We have committed to adhering to the contents of that agreement, which makes it entirely clear that it's co-production that needs to happen when we talk about delivery within local government of new policies and so on; it's a policy of working together on the outputs that we all want to see within our communities. We'll be working on the second part of that agreement over the coming weeks and months as well. So, I think that that agreement and that element of discussion, right from the very outset with local government, when we introduce new things, are critical and are at the heart of how I see that relationship working. In terms of the sustainability of local government, you are right to be voicing concerns about that. As the financial situation becomes increasingly challenging for the next year, matters around long-term sustainability arise in all of our minds. The Welsh Centre for Public Policy has done a very important piece of work recently on this whole matter of local government sustainability. That's been co-produced with local government, once again pursuing that approach of working together, and that's how I want to see all of this developing as we try to put local government on a more sustainable footing, we need to be doing it together. It isn't an easy matter to tackle. There are many elements to this, but there is a challenging period ahead and we do have to look at that sustainability in the long term, and Reg will say more, I'm sure. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784343 213 Cy 2026-11-05T11:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7176&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784366 214 En 2026-11-05T11:47:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7310&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 1101 Reg Kilpatrick Kilpatrick, Reg Thank you, Minister. Can I just add something on the pressures on local government and what we do to try and identify those and fund them? Legislation is a particular issue; it was identified by the Audit Wales report, actually. Part of any new piece of legislation is developing the regulatory impact assessment. This is about identifying the cost pressures that will come to local government as a result of implementing that new legislation. That work features in the strategic partnership agreement, as the Minister says, and is an activity and a shared endeavour. We, in my directorate, but certainly in directorates across the Welsh Government, try and work very closely with local government, because coming up with a set of accurate and robust costings for new legislation and, indeed, other activities where that applies is very important. That work is ongoing all of the time for new legislation. Quite often, there are post-implementation reviews of legislation, just to make sure that the costings originally developed were accurate, and if they weren't, there is then an opportunity for further discussion about how those costs are refined or funded as we go forward. So, I hope that helps. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784367 215 En 2026-11-05T11:48:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7397&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Yes, thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784368 216 En 2026-11-05T11:48:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7399&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Diolch, I forgot about the RIAs. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784370 217 En 2026-11-05T11:48:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7401&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Mike, a question on council tax reform. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784369 218 En 2026-11-05T11:48:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7404&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike I think we're running very close to time— 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784373 219 En 2026-11-05T11:48:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7407&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo We are, yes. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784372 220 En 2026-11-05T11:48:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7408&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike —so I'll pass at this stage. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784374 221 En 2026-11-05T11:48:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7411&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo You're going to pass, okay. Peter, one on regional partnerships or corporate joint committees. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784375 222 En 2026-11-05T11:49:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7416&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Corporate joint committees. I know that, Cabinet Minister, you may have had certain reservations, so I'm sure you'll be scrutinising CJCs thoroughly going forward, but they are an entity that are in place. Are they a really important strategic tool to deal with some of the things we talked about earlier, about place-led issues like data centres? Can't we be using CJCs more, whilst they're there, as an entity to facilitate proper strategic planning and to bring about some of the answers that can transcend just local government or local council issues? I was part of, certainly, setting up city deals and I still have some serious empathy for what they're going to do, but I can see the opportunities that they could be used for more, if they're developed in the right way, and I just wondered what your position might be with CJCs at the moment. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784388 223 En 2026-11-05T11:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7476&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784389 224 Cy 2026-11-05T11:50:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7491&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much for that question, which is an important question, and perhaps the committee could look at some of this work as well; that would be very useful. I think that it's a very live conversation. It has come alive, in part, as a result of what the UK Government has been saying recently about devolution, and devolution within regions. They're talking about it at a UK level. It's extremely important to emphasise all the time that any changes that take place in Wales need to take place in Wales and in discussion within Wales with local authorities and regional partners. That's an important point to make, and I believe, from the messages I've been getting back from the First Minister from the discussions that he's been having with the Prime Minister, that Andy Burnham accepts that we would be the ones making any types of changes. The First Minister recently made a speech where he was talking about all these things, and the need for us to look at the regional level, and to look carefully at that regional level. We all know that there's a perception, at least, that there is repetition, that there is duplication within that level. CJCs are a part of that level and looking at that in its entirety is something that we're currently doing. I have to do this jointly with the economy Minister and the Minister for Government effectiveness. That whole issue is at the forefront of our minds, but we won't move quickly and we won't—unless everyone wishes to see us moving quickly. But these reforms will take some time to work through. What we have said is that we will not be reorganising local government—that would take far too much of our energy away from other issues—unless, of course, a great desire comes through that there's a wish for us to do that, but it's not a priority for this Government. However, it is important to create an effective layer around the regional work, particularly around looking at how some of the economic initiatives coming from the UK Government interweave with the structures that we have in Wales, which are very different structures to those found in England. Tracey. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784391 225 En 2026-11-05T11:53:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7679&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 3636 Tracey Breheny Breheny, Tracey Thank you, diolch, Minister. I was just going to make two points in terms of the CJCs, if that's all right. One is that there's a very useful—which we could circulate to the committee—OECD report, which really provides the evidence for having effective and strong regional arrangements, if you like, in Wales, so it might be useful for the committee to see that. And the other is that Local Partnerships have recently done a review of all of the CJCs, because they're still relatively young in their development, and a set of recommendations has come out from that, which obviously the Minister will want to be considering, and the Ministers for economy and Government effectiveness, in terms of what improvements could be made in the here and now, whilst there is the conversation that the Minister referenced with local government and others about the medium term. Thank you, diolch. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784396 226 En 2026-11-05T11:54:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7734&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. David, if it's very quick, because I've got a question for the Minister myself. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784397 227 En 2026-11-05T11:54:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7739&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12159 12159 David Hughes https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12159 Hughes, David Yes. Well, I think Siân answered the question. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784398 228 En 2026-11-05T11:54:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7742&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Okay. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784399 229 En 2026-11-05T11:54:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7744&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Obviously, Minister, before we conclude the session, I'd just like to ask whether you're able to confirm the Welsh Government's position on granting consent in relation to the UK Government's Representation of the People Bill. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784400 230 En 2026-11-05T11:54:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7760&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian I can't remember where we're at with that now. Are we expecting a legislative consent memorandum? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784401 231 En 2026-11-05T11:54:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7764&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 1101 Reg Kilpatrick Kilpatrick, Reg I think we may be. Could we check? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784402 232 En 2026-11-05T11:54:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7767&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian We can check and come back to you on that particular point. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784403 233 En 2026-11-05T11:54:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7772&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Thank you. Well, I think that concludes the session, you'll be glad to know, so I'd like to thank you for your evidence and your attendance here today. And obviously you will receive a transcript of the meeting to check for its factual accuracy. But, again, thank you very much.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784377 234 En 2026-11-05T11:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7776&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784382 235 En 2026-11-05T11:55:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7819&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784385 236 Cy 2026-11-05T11:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7776&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784378 237 Cy 2026-11-05T11:55:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7786&l=en 261105-3 3. General scrutiny of the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning C 4981 4981 Sian Gwenllian https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981 Gwenllian, Sian Thank you very much. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784380 238 En 2026-11-05T11:55:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7807&l=en 261105-4 4. Papers to note C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Okay, so we're on to item 4, papers to note. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784408 239 En 2026-11-05T11:55:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7812&l=en 261105-4 4. Papers to note C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike Can I move that we note them? 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784409 240 En 2026-11-05T11:55:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7814&l=en 261105-4 4. Papers to note C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo Yes, okay.  16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784383 241 Cy 261105-5 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public I Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) and from the whole of the meeting on 12 November. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784384 242 Cy 261105-5 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public I Motion moved. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784387 243 En 2026-11-05T11:55:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16412?startPos=7818&l=en 261105-5 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public C 12152 12152 Carmelo Colasanto https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12152 Colasanto, Carmelo And then we go to a motion under item 5, under Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, but also for the whole of the meeting on 12 November. Thank you. 16412 7 2026-11-05T09:45:27 784386 244 Cy 261105-5 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public I Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 11:55.