16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786472 0 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=-35182&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=-35182&l=en 261111-0 C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786551 1 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=-35182&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=-35182&l=en 261111-0 C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786555 2 En 2026-11-11T09:49:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=195&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=195&l=cy 261111-0 C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786469 3 Cy 261111-0 I Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod.  The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786838 4 Cy 261111-0 I Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd. Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:46. The committee met in the Senedd. The meeting began at 09:46. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786468 5 Cy 2026-11-11T09:46:21 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=-1&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=-1&l=en 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions, and declarations of interest C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Bore da, gyfeillion. Croeso arbennig i chi i gyfarfod o'r Pwyllgor Economi, Ynni a Chysylltedd yma yn y Senedd heddiw. Mae hwn yn gyfarfod cyhoeddus, mae'n gyfarfod dwyieithog ac mi fydd yn cael ei ddarlledu ar Senedd.tv. Mi fydd yna gofnod cyhoeddus o'r cyfarfod maes o law. Does yna ddim ymddiheuriadau heddiw, ond a gaf i groesawu yn arbennig Benjamin Hodge McKenna, fel dirprwy yn lle Gareth Thomas i'r cyfarfod? Oes yna unrhyw ddatganiadau o fuddiant? Good morning, colleagues, and a warm welcome to this meeting of the Economy, Energy and Connectivity Committee here in the Senedd today. This is a public meeting, it's a bilingual meeting, and it will be broadcast live on Senedd.tv. There will be a Record of Proceedings available soon. There are no apologies this morning, but may I welcome Benjamin Hodge McKenna as a substitute to this meeting instead of Gareth Thomas? Are there any declarations of interest? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786487 6 En 2026-11-11T09:46:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=36&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=36&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions, and declarations of interest C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav Just to say that I know Josh and John from my previous life. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786492 7 Cy 2026-11-11T09:47:03 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=41&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=41&l=en 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions, and declarations of interest C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Diolch yn fawr, thank you. Kiera. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786495 8 En 2026-11-11T09:47:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=42&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=42&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions, and declarations of interest C 12166 12166 Kiera Marshall AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 Marshall, Kiera I worked as the deputy head of policy for the Federation of Small Businesses, who are here today. Both my parents also run small businesses, and I also know Josh. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786541 9 Cy 2026-11-11T09:47:13 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=51&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=51&l=en 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions, and declarations of interest C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Ocê, da iawn, diolch yn fawr. Okay, very good, thank you very much. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786542 10 En 2026-11-11T09:47:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=54&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=54&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions, and declarations of interest C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Okay, those are noted. Diolch yn fawr. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786543 11 Cy 2026-11-11T09:47:18 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=56&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=56&l=en 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Efo hynny, felly, a gaf i estyn croeso arbennig i'r tri ohonoch chi? Hoffech chi gyflwyno eich hunan yn y lle cyntaf? With that, therefore, may I welcome all three of you? Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786545 12 En 2026-11-11T09:47:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=64&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=64&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn We'll start with Joshua, shall we? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786546 13 Cy 2026-11-11T09:47:28 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=66&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=66&l=en 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Bore da, bawb. Josh Miles ydw i. Dwi'n gweithio fel pennaeth y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach yng Nghymru. Good morning, all. I'm Josh Miles. I work as head of the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786547 14 Cy 2026-11-11T09:47:35 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=73&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=73&l=en 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Croeso. Welcome. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786548 15 En 2026-11-11T09:47:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=75&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=75&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John Hi, there. Good morning, everyone. My name is John Hurst and I run my own business, b2b IT Services, but also I am chair of FSB Wales. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786549 16 En 2026-11-11T09:47:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=86&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=86&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Jim Davison. I'm the national membership director at Make UK. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786550 17 En 2026-11-11T09:47:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=92&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=92&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Croeso, welcome. Thank you very much, diolch yn fawr.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786552 18 Cy 2026-11-11T09:47:57 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=95&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=95&l=en 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Wel, felly, mi wnawn ni gyflwyno gwahanol gwestiynau chi o hyn ymlaen i gasglu'r data. Wrth gwrs, mae'r datblygiad potensial o asiantaeth economaidd newydd yn rhywbeth cyffrous a phwysig i Gymru, ond efallai y caf i ofyn i chi, yn eich barn chi, pam bod angen asiantaeth economaidd newydd arnom ni. Well, we will therefore ask you some questions in order to collect data. Of course, the potential development of a new economic development agency is an exciting and important thing for Wales, but perhaps I could ask you, in your opinion, why a new agency is needed. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786553 19 En 2026-11-11T09:48:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=119&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=119&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Would you like me to start? Yes, it's a great question to start with, isn't it? I think the key thing is, at the moment, the landscape is quite complicated, and obviously we've got past experience of having an agency, so there's a little bit of memory around the room, particularly from the business side, of having lived and worked in an era when an agency like that existed. So, creating an agency, I think, adds a few things. First, it gives you a little bit of longevity on policy, so an organisation that can live beyond the political cycle and get things done in the longer term. The other thing it gives you is capacity building. So, we've seen this with other arm's-length bodies, and Transport for Wales is a good example of this, where having that kind of capacity allows you to build better cases for investment and for change on things. I would say those are the two main reasons for doing it. The key question for us, though, is that we can't put the cart before the horse. So, you need a clear economic strategy first, and then an agency is there to deliver on that strategy, and not the other way around. So, I think the first question we would ask is: what's the strategy? And then work on the purpose of the agency from there. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786554 20 En 2026-11-11T09:49:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=193&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=193&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Diolch yn fawr. Would any of your colleagues like to— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786556 21 En 2026-11-11T09:49:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=198&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=198&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim Yes, I think having that single front door, an easy point of access for businesses of all shapes and sizes, is really important, because often the business landscape is very fragmented, so any clarity with that is key.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786559 22 En 2026-11-11T09:49:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=215&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=215&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John I think there needs to be the question around what is the strategy, and therefore, what is the goal that the development agency is trying to achieve. And that's the one thing we would like to understand more. But I think, nonetheless, that it does present an opportunity to simplify, as a business owner myself, what is quite a complex support landscape within Wales. There are opportunities, but there are also challenges that we would push back on on the development agency itself. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786387 23 En 2026-11-11T09:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=218&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=218&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786396 24 En 2026-11-11T09:50:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=247&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=247&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Okay. Thank you very much. Janet. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786397 25 En 2026-11-11T09:50:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=248&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=248&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Thank you. Good morning and welcome. So, I liked your response about the single front door. Now, since the Welsh Development Agency was scrapped, there are several doors now that you can go through in terms of providing business support, and I think that's why the landscape is so complex. There's a lot of good work going on out there, but there's a lot of duplication. And for me, since I've been here 16 years, the one thing that's really lacking is data collection. How are our small, our medium-sized and our larger sized businesses starting up, then developing? And how are we attracting international trade and things like that? I've spoken with the Minister, and he's ever so enthusiastic about this organisation. But for me, my next question is: what will be the risks? But my worry is that it'll just become another, yet another organisation. How do we avoid that? And what do you believe are the potential opportunities, but also the risks associated with establishing a new organisation? And I take your point, Joshua, about the political cycle, but the facts are, this is the shortest Senedd term, four years, and we're already six months in. I always think, 'What's this going to look like in three and a half years' time?' 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786402 26 En 2026-11-11T09:51:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=335&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=335&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Yes, there are a lot of good questions there. I suppose the risk is, to jump to the question you haven't asked yet, that we create an organisation that just adds another layer to what is already an incredibly complex landscape: we have another cook in the kitchen, policy gets a little bit less effective, businesses have another voice to deal with, and we all get a bit lost in the middle. So, there's no real way of avoiding it. The economic geography of Wales is a mess. We've got local authorities doing stuff in this area. We've got corporate joint committees doing stuff in this area. We've got city deals that sometimes map nicely to the CJCs, but that's in a bit of a transition at the moment. We've got the UK Government through UK Trade and Investment and the things they do there. We've got Welsh Government and Business Wales on contract. It is a messy landscape. So, I really do think the expert panel, in going through its conclusions, needs to start with: what should the economic geography of Wales look like? And that's particularly relevant at the moment, I think, when we're having this big conversation about devolution and what might happen below the national level. So, we need to have an honest discussion about that, and we need to make some hard choices. Otherwise, that risk is a really big one, I think. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786409 27 En 2026-11-11T09:53:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=411&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=411&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John I think one of the big challenges for all of our members in the feedback we're getting is that they feel like they need to, not only wear so many hats—be the marketing department, be the payroll department, go out and sell, research and development—but also, to access support, they need to understand the institutional landscape of business support in Wales. And coming back to the single door entering business support, what we've always seen as really important is that there really should be one call. For a business that's trying to do something, that's trying to grow, trying to sustain jobs, they shouldn't have another task to then understand all the different landscape. And I know that prior to my involvement in FSB and running my business, I had no idea of the complexity of the landscape. What I did is I just avoided accessing business support and found my own way of doing things. But that is a story we hear time and time again from members. So, I think, coming back to what this can do, I think it presents an opportunity to simplify. And what we would encourage everyone to avoid doing is creating another layer, because that's another layer of complexity, another institution to understand. And also, looking at the branding, certain brands are really recognised. Business Wales is a great example. It is recognised amongst the business community. Removing the Business Wales brand or rebranding it—again, it's another complexity that people have to try and understand: 'Well, what does this new institution do?' 'I understood Business Wales, but what's this?' So, yes, trying to understand the institutional landscape is not what business owners should be trying to do in running their business, in our opinion.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786415 28 En 2026-11-11T09:54:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=511&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=511&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet I have to just put a caveat in: I've met the panel. I've met the chair, and I'm really impressed with the level of expertise that they're bringing in to do this. And I've had conversations and I think that they are of a like mind. It is a very complicated and fragmented landscape out there. I just want something to bring it all together, because we are losing our high streets, we're losing our businesses, and people just feel that there is no support for starting a business or running a business here in Wales. That's me for now. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786561 29 En 2026-11-11T09:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=518&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=518&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786563 30 En 2026-11-11T09:55:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=544&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=544&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Thank you. Tom, then Shav.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786564 31 En 2026-11-11T09:55:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=548&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=548&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom Thanks, Chair. I hope you'll forgive me, Chair, I'm going to jump ahead a little bit, just based on what you guys were saying about the business support landscape. I hear what you say about the current landscape being very fragmented, that businesses want a one-stop shop, which is kind of what the Government's talking about here, but I suppose I would be interested in your view on how we do that without then this agency becoming bogged down. One of the proposed advantages of this agency is that it'll be much more light-footed than the Government, but the last time we had this agency, it had more than 1,000 staff at its closure and was becoming very slow to act. So, if this agency is going to become a one-stop shop, are we seeing that amalgamating things like Business Wales, the Development Bank of Wales? And then how does it do that without then becoming the heavy-footed slow process of exactly why we don't want it being done in-house? It's that balance, isn't it, of how we create a one-stop shop without that one-stop shop becoming a government within its own right and becoming incredibly slow to react? How do you see that looking? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786569 32 En 2026-11-11T09:56:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=625&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=625&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Look, I think the first point to make is that this can't be the agency we had in 2006, when it ended, because the world has changed. Things have moved on. The global economic environment is totally different, the business environment in Wales is totally different, so this has to be different. It has to look different and it has to do different things. In terms of the question around getting bogged down, I think that that's a really good point. We need clarity, though. We need to come out of this knowing who does what, where and why. And I think that, if the decision is, 'We don't want the agency to do certain things', that's fine, as long as we know why that is and we then create a remit and an organisation, a structure and accountability that reinforces what we want it to do exactly.  From our perspective, we've said that the three things that you could move in straight away, with a budget of about £100 million to get it up and running, would be the Business Wales contract, the export support that Welsh Government gives and the inward investment support team. There are three key functions there that you can build an agency around, and you can probably get those up and running quite quickly, to your earlier question, Janet. So, that's how we would see it, if you wanted to be fleet of foot and get it moving, but I think you can't avoid the discussion on where it fits in the landscape, and we need the expert panel and the Government afterwards to have a really clear view on that.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786576 33 En 2026-11-11T09:58:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=707&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=707&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom Yes. Thanks for that, because that's the key, isn't it? It's finding that balance where you create this agency that can be much more dynamic than a Government department, but if you want it to be a one-stop shop, there's somewhere in the middle there where it needs to land, isn't there? Because, if it's a one-stop shop, it's going to end up being too big to continue to be fast-acting in the way that we want it to be. But, yes, that's really, really interesting what you were saying about— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786577 34 En 2026-11-11T09:58:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=731&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=731&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim I think it's really clear that you must have absolute clarity on what this organisation is for, and very much more importantly what it's not there to cover, and then be very, very much outcome driven. So, if success is rewarded, or if outcomes, real business outcomes, are the prize and that's recognised and rewarded, hopefully that will stop some of that mission creep that can and often does set it.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786580 35 En 2026-11-11T09:59:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=765&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=765&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John Sorry, can I just jump in there? We mentioned as well earlier that there are some really good things going on out there and there are some really good support mechanisms. But what we find in speaking to members, and in my own personal experience, is that the joined-up thinking isn't always there. So, there's a great example. I was speaking to a member recently who had accessed finance from the Development Bank of Wales. The Development Bank of Wales had done huge amounts of work on understanding their business and really getting into the nitty-gritty and lent them the money, but then didn't link them in with skills development or board creation and actually looking at, 'Okay, they've got the finance now, but what other aspects do they need?' Now, there are agencies out there who can support the business with that, but my view is that, if you've got the Development Bank of Wales lending money to an organisation, they can identify some skills gaps, link up with other agencies and then bring that support in, rather than the business then going, 'Great, I've got the money, now I need to understand who I go to to access the skills I need to use that money effectively.' There are some easy wins, and quick wins, and it's just about that joined-up thinking across the different support that's out there at the moment.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786325 36 En 2026-11-11T10:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=818&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=818&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786353 37 En 2026-11-11T10:00:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=833&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=833&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim I echo and recognise the good contributions that the export support team in Wales offer and provide, particularly to our members, our manufacturers. My members in England look very much with green envy because that is a good service in Wales, definitely. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786358 38 En 2026-11-11T10:00:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=851&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=851&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Thank you very much. It's worth noting those positives.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786360 39 En 2026-11-11T10:00:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=854&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=854&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom Can I just come back to the remit quickly here, sorry, just before Shav comes in? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786362 40 En 2026-11-11T10:00:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=856&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=856&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Yes. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786364 41 En 2026-11-11T10:00:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=859&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=859&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom Obviously, the economy of Wales, in my view, very much exists east-west, particularly in north Wales. North Wales is more economically linked to Manchester, Chester and Liverpool than it is necessarily to south Wales. Rightly or wrongly, that's just the environment that it is. So, how do you see, or how would you like to see, this agency working cross-border? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786371 42 En 2026-11-11T10:01:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=885&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=885&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I'd love to see us shift the narrative on this entirely, to be honest. Wales is a peripheral market, if we're being honest, on an island that is on the periphery of the European market, and the US market a bit further away. We should be really encouraging Welsh businesses to be internationally minded and think where they can sell their products, and, sometimes, we don't even do that with the big cities across the border in England. There are big opportunities in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol, and we don't always think about those as 'export', for want of a better word. So, yes, absolutely, I think we should have, as a starting point, a bit of aspiration around how we can take Welsh companies and sell them to England, sell them to Europe, to America, and the world. And the agency should be mindful of that. It should be looking for opportunities to support that in a constructive way. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786378 43 En 2026-11-11T10:01:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=936&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=936&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom So, you would expect cross-border links to be a key part of the remit of this agency. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786379 44 En 2026-11-11T10:02:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=941&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=941&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Absolutely, yes.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786429 45 En 2026-11-11T10:02:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=942&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=942&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom Thank you.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786380 46 En 2026-11-11T10:02:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=943&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=943&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim Businesses don't recognise those boundaries. As has already been said, they're national and international organisations. So, whatever this organisation can do to make sure that manufacturing businesses, and others in Wales, are able to accelerate and drive that agenda forward is going to be good for Wales. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786382 47 En 2026-11-11T10:02:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=965&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=965&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom Brilliant. Thanks, Chair.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786383 48 En 2026-11-11T10:02:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=966&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=966&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Shav, and then Alun. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786384 49 En 2026-11-11T10:02:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=967&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=967&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav Josh, you quite early on referred to the fact that what we need first is an industrial strategy. We need to have a vision for what kind of—. Jim, you've talked about manufacturing, and we know that there are defence potential opportunities that are on the horizon that we're kind of struggling to sign up to at the moment. What I wanted to understand is: what exactly is it that isn't happening already that you think that having a new agency is going to resolve? What is it that your members are actually telling you is missing? Is there a reason why we need this agency? My concern is that there's a lot of money, potentially, on the table, and opportunities on the table. If we spend a lot of time and energy focusing on a structure like the Welsh Development Agency, which we're still trying to figure out, and it's going to take six months before we get the terms, as I understand it, ready, and then there'll be the process to set up—and, going back to what Janet was saying, it's a four-year Senedd term—is there a possibility that some of these opportunities will kind of disappear and people will want to go elsewhere, because we're making ourselves appear to be in a position where we're unsure as to who we are anymore? John, you talked about Business Wales, and it's a recognisable brand, but, equally, Josh, you've said, 'What we would just like is the three different parts all talking to each other, and exports does a great job already'. So, is it the case that we just need, maybe, a framework where they all talk together, or do we need an actual agency, because, like you mentioned, it didn't do so brilliantly towards the end last time? And when it was originally set up, we did not have the level of devolution that we currently have. There are other types of—. We could end up in a situation where there's English devolution going forward; we don't know yet. So, what's different? How is this going to make us stand out? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786394 50 En 2026-11-11T10:04:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1093&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1093&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua So, you've got to start with what you want this body to do, and, again, I go back to it. You mentioned an industrial strategy. We perhaps wouldn't use those words; that tends to be a bit more sectorally focused, but, certainly, an economic development strategy. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786399 51 En 2026-11-11T10:04:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1104&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1104&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav An economic development strategy, an industrial strategy. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786400 52 En 2026-11-11T10:04:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1106&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1106&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua A 100 per cent. You want that set out and clear, so then you know what the institution is there to deliver. I'm not sure we're quite there yet. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786403 53 En 2026-11-11T10:04:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1115&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1115&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav Okay. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786404 54 En 2026-11-11T10:04:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1116&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1116&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua We've got ideas on what that should look like. So, we've started talking about the four Ss, so: start, sustain, scale and succeed. There we go—I nearly forgot my four Ss. But if you look at the Welsh economy, start-ups wise, we're okay, but we've got much lower density of companies per 100 people, or whatever the measure is. If you look at 'sustain', we have much less turnover per company that we have. So, we're doing less with the companies that we've got. On 'scale-up', we know there's a discussion about medium-sized companies and that we have a lack of those in Wales. And then on 'succeed', our companies tend to be less productive. There are four key things there that a strategy could purpose an agency to tackle, but, at the moment, we're not giving that steer, I don't think. We're creating an agency a little bit in a vacuum. We've got recent experience of this as well. I don't know if colleagues remember, but Medr was set up, and we had a long period of discussion leading up to that before Medr was created as an arm's-length body, with legislation in the way that this probably will be. And a big part of that discussion is, 'What are we going to get that organisation to do?' And I think it's only now you're starting to see that being clarified, through the summit and the audit, even though the organisation's been around for a few years. So, I think we should learn from that, set out clearly what we think it's there to do first, then ask what the institution should be around it. I think an agency, probably, is the right idea because, at the moment, the capacity you've got in the civil service and the lack of fleetness of foot are a challenge. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786718 55 En 2026-11-11T10:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1118&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1118&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786729 56 En 2026-11-11T10:06:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1210&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1210&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav With capacity, they're struggling. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786731 57 En 2026-11-11T10:06:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1211&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1211&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Yes, we could do something interesting in that space, but it has to be constructed correctly. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786732 58 En 2026-11-11T10:06:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1217&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1217&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim So, business is tough right now, really tough, and has been for a number of years. So, if we can take away some of the uncertainty that's facing those business leaders, to help them make the right decisions, as to, 'Where are the business opportunities? Is it defence? Is it data centres? Is it food and drink?', there are some real big prizes out there, but we've got to help some of those businesses make that transition. For some of them, the challenge is, 'We can't make enough.' Others are, 'Do you know what? We're just about clinging on, and if we can weather the next year or two, then we should be okay.' And others are in distress. So, that action piece is really critical. And, actually, there are some things that I think the Government, however that can be—. Simplicity is the key I'm trying to get to, and clarity. So, if business leaders understand what the levers are that the Government are looking to pull and how the Government can support those businesses, and make that relatively simple and easy to understand and access, that, I think, would make a big difference. Now, how you structure an organisation to deliver that is something you need to think carefully about, but simplicity and clarity of mission, I think, are critical, and then making sure that the wider business community understands what it’s there for and how it can support them, because often I hear businesses are unaware of some of the excellent support that they could receive in Wales, for example. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786746 59 En 2026-11-11T10:08:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1319&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1319&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav And do you think that businesses are quite comfortable with waiting for an agency to be set up before we have a strategy, or do we need to do both at the same time? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786748 60 En 2026-11-11T10:08:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1331&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1331&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim I think you have to do things concurrently. Nationally, we've been talking about an industrial strategy for 18 months. What's missing is that we don't need to talk about it anymore but we need to actually deliver and make some changes to take some of those pressures off businesses, in Wales, England, across the country. So, action is critical, but it's at a time when there is not much public finance there. So, clearly, Government organisations need to be very focused so they can make a real difference, in my opinion. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786753 61 En 2026-11-11T10:09:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1364&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1364&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John If you look at our quarterly index, where we survey our 7,500 members across Wales, confidence is really low. So, time isn't something that we really have the luxury of at the moment. And, in only speaking to a member yesterday on a call, they said, 'It feels like costs everywhere are squeezing us to the point of where, another rise of cost comes in, and I just spend the evening thinking, "How on earth am I going to be able to cope? Do I shut the business down now?''' This is a business with four sites across Wales, really successful, but it's just got harder and harder to run it. So, I think, on the question around, 'Is it necessary to have an economic development agency?', understanding its context within an economic development strategy is really important. But I suppose the key thing we're coming here to say is that speed is important, so that's why we're saying, 'Let's not reinvent everything', because that takes time. There are brands that people are aware of. Business Wales is a great example. They're aware, and, 'I call Business Wales.' But what we are saying is that if the intention is to simplify the business support structure within Wales and then also to measure the impact of that support, we are supportive of that, and that's what our members are looking for—an improved yet simplified service. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786520 62 En 2026-11-11T10:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1418&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1418&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786526 63 En 2026-11-11T10:10:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1446&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1446&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav You referred to almost a framework that would be useful. You gave us an example of a company that had successfully managed to draw down support funds through the Development Bank of Wales and it would have been great if they handed the business, then, over to somebody else. Could it be that we need, then, a framework rather than an agency? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786527 64 En 2026-11-11T10:10:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1465&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1465&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Well, you could do it that way, I suppose. The opportunity you'd miss then would be the longer term—what's the right word?—the longer term strategy an agency might be able to give you and deliver against outside the political cycle and the capacity an agency might build. So, that's why you might go down the agency route instead. But even if you have an agency, and let's assume the development bank stays separate, which we think it probably should, you need some sort of framework for those two organisations working together. You're probably going to need a framework for what happens with CJCs after that discussion— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786531 65 En 2026-11-11T10:11:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1503&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1503&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav That's a whole other ball game. Will they play? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786532 66 En 2026-11-11T10:11:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1505&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1505&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Exactly. So, we need to see some leadership in that space, I think. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786534 67 En 2026-11-11T10:11:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1510&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1510&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav Okay. Thank you. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786535 68 En 2026-11-11T10:11:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1511&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1511&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Can I bring Alun in, and then Janet? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786536 69 En 2026-11-11T10:11:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1513&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1513&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 4491 4491 Alun Cox AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 Cox, Alun I'm hearing different things from you, and that's not unusual in terms of evidence that we gather—so, both a call from you to simplify the landscape, but also to retain aspects of that landscape, or to retain the good bits of that landscape. Somewhere, there's a balance there, isn't there, in terms of how you do that, and I think it comes back to: is there a clear strategy? What I'd like to ask you, though, about, is the longer term. And I know Shav has asked questions about the immediate and a Senedd term, but, as representatives of business, are you looking for something longer term than that, for something where we're not looking at the next four years but looking at the next 20 years? And then you do take a bit of time to get that right, because you know that what you're setting up is something that could last a long time, and it's not working now. We know that everything we've done over the last 15 years has not succeeded, so we need to do something new. Is that where you would be? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786537 70 En 2026-11-11T10:12:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1595&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1595&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Apologies, I'm going first all the time here. Absolutely, 100 per cent. I think the longer term is absolutely what we want from this. The Business Wales example is a really good one. I'm going to be completely honest, we're a little bit terrified if that brand just disappears, because it would be another example of initiative churn. If you look at the last 20 odd years of what we've done on economic development in Wales, we have gone around the circle, reinventing things time after time after time. And from a business perspective, our members are out there thinking, 'One week there was something called Business Wales, but what's it called now?' It's really confusing. So, yes, absolutely—that balance is not asking the question about what it is branded, but asking about what it does and how we make it better. That's how we drive change, I think. So, yes, I think, the longer term, for sure. Keep what's good, but really hone in on what needs to change behind it so that we get that right and we can drive things forward. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786593 71 En 2026-11-11T10:13:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1657&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1657&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 4491 4491 Alun Cox AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 Cox, Alun Go on, yes. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786596 72 En 2026-11-11T10:14:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1659&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1659&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim So, you've got two challenges. You've got the immediate challenge today—and that may not be in the remit of what we're talking about today—but then, absolutely, with that investment vision or cycle in a business, you're talking 10 years plus. So, we're talking about strategic decisions that business leaders are looking to make. So, having that vision and sense of direction is critical and will really help them to make those decisions, employ more people, utilise the right technologies and invest in their businesses. So, I think that clarity of vision longer term is key. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786600 73 En 2026-11-11T10:14:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1701&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1701&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 4491 4491 Alun Cox AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 Cox, Alun And could you envisage that without an agency? That's the question. Does that help in terms of that longer term vision? Does it help in terms of a structure—a different structure—and does it help in terms of not just, 'Actually, for the next six months, we're going to do this and, in six months, we're going to do something entirely different?' 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786598 74 En 2026-11-11T10:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1718&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1718&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786612 75 En 2026-11-11T10:15:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1722&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1722&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I think it does help, but, again, it comes back to how you construct it. So, an agency has to be really clearly constructed in its terms of reference, probably statutory, so that it lives beyond that cycle, and, to be honest, it needs cross-party consensus around what it's for. If we don't get good agreement across all of you here that this is the right thing to do, and this is what it should be doing, there's always a risk that it changes after the next political cycle. So, for us, if we're going to do it, let's do it in a way that we think everybody's bought into. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786621 76 En 2026-11-11T10:15:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1755&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1755&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Thank you. Janet and then Ben. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786623 77 En 2026-11-11T10:15:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1757&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1757&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet I'm just a bit concerned. I know we need an economy strategy, we need an industrialisation—. We've done all these in the past. It's almost like I'd be inclined to pick one up, dust it off, and look at it—. Too often, we set up these costly, in terms of time and money, reviews or strategies, and they then take off the focus. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, this agency is going ahead. I think we've all got to get behind it. Is it not more of a mission statement we want from them, and feed into a mission statement, rather than sending everyone down a rabbit hole again, writing up a new—? Because, really, things haven't changed. They've deteriorated for our businesses. It's pretty simple. The costs of running a business now in Wales are becoming prohibitive, and yet people are saying to me—I'm a businesswoman myself, and my friends are saying to me—'We're going over to England.' I had a guy who came to see me with a multimillion-pound project, he could not get his foot in the door with the previous Welsh Government. He went off to Sweden; he's doing very nicely now in Sweden. I wanted him in my constituency. I could've had him in my—. We found the premises, but he couldn't get any help whatsoever. Even I found a blockage trying to get through to the Minister. The engagement from the Minister wasn't there. So, you can understand. We're losing money left, right and centre across Wales to other countries, just over the border to England, and it's how do we stop that. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786634 78 En 2026-11-11T10:17:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1869&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1869&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John I don't necessarily know what the answer is. Running a business myself, I think the question for me, looking at a development agency with my business hat on, is, should they be the ones writing the mission statement for the Welsh economy, or, actually, do I want to see the Government telling me what the mission statement is? That's from a business perspective. For me in my business—and, yes, it's a heck of a lot smaller than the Welsh economy—we don't take a huge amount of time in terms of devising our strategy, and we only make small adjustments over time, because there are certain constraints. However, I would come back to that there's a real risk, I suppose, in the discussion that we're having, in that people are going to have different views on what the development agency is there for. So, is it there to simplify the business support landscape? Is it there to set out the mission for business across Wales? So, getting that clarity, I think, is—. And actually, it probably points to understanding where it fits within the economic strategy, what is this development agency for within that economic strategy, so that every business, large or small, can understand why they would go to that economic development agency, and what it is there to deliver and, therefore, what it is there to be held accountable against. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786640 79 En 2026-11-11T10:15:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1775&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1775&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I feel your pain on one more strategy— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786641 80 En 2026-11-11T10:18:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1957&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1957&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet I could build a Senedd. I could build a brand-new Senedd or Tŷ Hywel with the number of strategies, just in my time here, and the Senedd's older than me being here. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786644 81 En 2026-11-11T10:19:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=1965&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=1965&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua We've got a bookshelf in the office with strategies going back years and years and years, so I absolutely take that point. I suppose the only thing I'd raise is the agency is just one part of what Government will do that relates to the economy, and what we need to see is: what does it mean for planning, what does it mean for skills as an issue, what does it mean for the tax stuff that comes out of the finance department. I think it would be helpful to have some sort of vision, some sort of statement on, 'This is what we're trying to pull towards', that the agency can fall behind. But I completely agree, we don't want to spend the next three and a half years going through strategy development and not actually delivering on something. So, yes, I think that's a good point. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786654 82 En 2026-11-11T10:19:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2008&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2008&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn I think we've all been there. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786656 83 En 2026-11-11T10:19:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2011&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2011&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim It about the implementation, isn't it? That's the critical phase. And if the answers are already there, then, yes, dust it off, change the date and crack on. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786749 84 En 2026-11-11T10:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2018&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2018&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786797 85 En 2026-11-11T10:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2318&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2318&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786781 86 En 2026-11-11T10:24:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2317&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2317&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786793 87 En 2026-11-11T10:20:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2020&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2020&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Ben. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786800 88 En 2026-11-11T10:20:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2022&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2022&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim I'm being facetious, but you understand— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786762 89 En 2026-11-11T10:20:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2023&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2023&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Well, I'm not. I'm not, because I can look— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786763 90 En 2026-11-11T10:20:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2026&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2026&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim It is the implementation plans that are critical. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786764 91 En 2026-11-11T10:20:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2027&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2027&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Even if you look at our failing health boards, I can look at health reports going back 10 years and they read almost—. It's just that different—. It's almost like what Government does, it spends a lot of money navel-gazing, and I'd be really worried about this, because I don't want to see businesses in Bangor Conwy Môn go to the wall. Because the frequent cry at the moment is that a lot of our business owners—smaller business owners I'm talking about now—are on less than minimum wage. So, where is the incentive to have that financial risk? They might as well just go on benefits like everybody else, and that is what people are saying to me now. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786768 92 En 2026-11-11T10:20:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2065&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2065&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Thank you. Ben. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786770 93 En 2026-11-11T10:20:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2066&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2066&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12142 12142 Benjamin Hodge Mckenna AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12142 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12142 Hodge Mckenna, Benjamin Just to build on what we were just talking about, one of the signals that the Minister has been giving about the WDA is that innovation could play a key role in the operation of the WDA. What are your views in having innovation as one of the objectives of the agency? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786771 94 En 2026-11-11T10:21:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2085&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2085&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Yes, I think it's good. We actually have—. If you look at the legislation underpinning Medr, innovation is actually part of the statutory process, and the focus there is largely on university research funding. I think the bit that we're missing, and this is true across the sort of productivity question, is the diffusion question. So, I think we talk a good game about where there are cutting edge things happening in Wales, but where we're really weak is saying, 'We've got AI at the moment, which everyone's talking about'—where's the conversation about how our average member is going to pick up AI and do something useful with it in their business? So, I think if we inject innovation into that discussion, for me it should be about, with an economic development hat on, what are the big strategic things, from an innovation perspective, we can focus diffusion on, so that across the Welsh economy you get companies pushing a bit further along. If it ends up just being about there's a shiny thing here coming out of a business park or university in Cardiff, or whatever, I think that'll be a missed opportunity. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786774 95 En 2026-11-11T10:22:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2153&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2153&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John I think innovation doesn't stand alone either in terms of a focus. So, a business that's innovating—. One of our members in the semiconductor sector is a great example—innovating, growing, exporting. It tried to buy the building next door to them and found they were being outbid each time they came back with a different bid. It turns out they were bidding against Welsh Government who bought the building for inward investment. So, I think when it comes to innovation, what we need to really consider is that broader view that innovation at a stand-alone is one thing, but actually making sure that the entire infrastructure is there to support that innovation and the ecosystem is there to support that innovation is really important. So, yes, very supportive of innovation being core to any strategy. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786777 96 En 2026-11-11T10:23:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2202&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2202&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim Successful businesses have to—. Be it innovation relating to products, their business processes, how they access their markets, their supply chains—yes, it's fundamental. I guess the challenge is the pace of new technology that organisations are trying to get their heads around and understand, 'How can I exploit it?' Because it's all about exploitation of innovation technologies to deliver real business benefit or economic benefit—that's the challenge. I agree with my colleagues; I think it's a fundamental part of what we're talking about. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786778 97 En 2026-11-11T10:23:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2243&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2243&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John Coming back to innovation as well, I think the skill set in terms of the support landscape is really important. So, it's making sure that, if my business is looking to innovate, develop new products, actually we can access the skills easily, or easier than we currently can, to make sure that we can bring that skill set in and innovate within the organisation. Too often what we hear is that perhaps behind that door, however simplified the structure may be, there isn't necessarily the skill set there to support the businesses that there should be. So, again that's another area to look at in terms of if the skill set is there to support businesses to innovate effectively. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786779 98 En 2026-11-11T10:24:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2280&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2280&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12142 12142 Benjamin Hodge Mckenna AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12142 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12142 Hodge Mckenna, Benjamin Yes, absolutely, and I think the point that was made earlier about how do we give access to small businesses—for example, the ability for the expertise to implement AI into their business. I think that is the sort of thing that the WDA might be able to look at. I'm also interested in your opinions on the panel that was announced; I know Janet is a big fan of some of the people on there. What are your views on the panel and particularly the representation of different sectors for business within it? Because I notice there's a couple of aviation manufacturers, tech, finance, not any food and drinks manufacturers, not any agricultural businesses, so I wonder what your views are on the panel there. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786343 99 En 2026-11-11T10:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2318&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2318&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua It probably wouldn't be the panel we would choose, in that I think there's more of an international slant, which, to me, reflects some of the thinking behind what the WDA used to do. We've had meetings with the chair and, John, I know you've presented to the panel—they're all really good people, so I'm sure they'll do an excellent job—but if it was us, we would have liked to have seen a bit more of a small and medium-sized impact in there, and perhaps more businesses with that grounded experience in Wales that know what it's like to face the barriers of growing a Welsh company and prospering. I think that would have been helpful from our perspective. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786357 100 En 2026-11-11T10:25:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2354&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2354&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Can I just come back on that one? They are very open to—. I'm lucky in that we've got people like Sean Taylor, Dylan Jones-Evans, and when I started mentioning some of the names just in north Wales, or people that I know in the commerce world, they are really keen to work with them. They just want to be sure that they're not just thrown a load of names. So, I think we all have a responsibility, where we know some of the movers and the shakers are, that we put them in touch with them. Now, I understand they're coming to north Wales as a panel, and they said to me there'll be a networking event, which is brilliant. Get up to the north, because it can't all happen down here. And so, for me, I will have those movers and shakers around that table when they come up to north Wales, and I think we should all be doing the same. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786370 101 En 2026-11-11T10:26:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2409&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2409&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua And I should say, just as an additional point, they've engaged with us a lot so far. We were in very early to shape their discussion. The civil servants supporting the panel have been engaging a lot. We've spoken to the Minister about it. So, we can't fault the engagement to date, I think. It's just really key that that keeps happening. As you say, we bring an opportunity to bring our members into that conversation as much as we can. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786372 102 En 2026-11-11T10:26:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2431&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2431&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Yes, absolutely. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786373 103 En 2026-11-11T10:26:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2433&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2433&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Well, that's positive. Sarah, can I bring you in now? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786375 104 En 2026-11-11T10:27:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2438&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2438&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12161 12161 Sarah Edwards AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 Edwards, Sarah Good morning. I just wanted your views on the Minister's expectation that the new economic development agency will be running in some form by the summer. Is this driven by the Minister or by the proposed FBC agency brief? It wants it at pace. Is this not another way of saying 'rushed'? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786381 105 En 2026-11-11T10:27:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2467&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2467&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I'm not sure how to answer that, to be honest. It's not in our gift to tell them how quickly they get up and running. I think they should try and move quickly. We've got four-year political terms; we're six months in. My big concern is—I go back to the Medr example—it took years to get that up and running. And to the point that Shav made earlier on, we spend a lot of energy discussing what an agency would do in the tertiary landscape, without then discussing what needs to be done in the tertiary landscape. So, I think, from our perspective, we're very keen to see that get up and running as quickly as possible so we can get on to discussing what needs to be done. I think if we're here two years down the line and we're still discussing what an agency might do, we would have wasted a couple of years of a really critical economic time. So, I think that would be where we're coming from with it. Having said that, it needs to be done right. It shouldn't be rushed. So, get it up and running, but give it the idea of what its long-term future might be and let's slowly move towards that, I think. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786386 106 En 2026-11-11T10:28:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2532&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2532&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John We can turn it around as well and look at it from the perspective of someone who owns a high-street shop. As mentioned already, things are really difficult at the moment. So, yes, they want things to be right, and this is not—. I'm not saying this is going to solve problems and issues, but it is one of a number of things that people are really keeping an eye on at the moment and looking towards to see some change happen there, to grow confidence, rebuild some confidence that's been lost over the years, and also to understand what is the direction that we're going in at the moment. So, yes, I totally agree. In terms of speaking to our members, they would like to see some positive change, but, equally, they want it to be right and they want it to be long term. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786390 107 En 2026-11-11T10:29:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2578&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2578&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12161 12161 Sarah Edwards AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 Edwards, Sarah Thank you.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786391 108 En 2026-11-11T10:29:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2581&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2581&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Tom, then Shav. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786392 109 En 2026-11-11T10:29:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2582&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2582&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom Thanks, Chair. I wanted to try and move on to budgets, because I know we're getting through your time here. You mentioned that your suggestion is that the agency starts with £100 million and that that budget increases year on year, increasing to match wider responsibility. I suppose my thought is, only a couple of weeks ago, the Government shelved its ideas to revalue council tax bands, because the £80 million that that was going to cost, it said was too burdensome right now, and we're seeing budgetary pressures across Government and public services. Do you see there being any opportunities for the agency to have revenue streams other than the taxpayer? Because I hear what you're saying about creating a framework that lasts beyond the four-year term, but if it doesn't have some form of sustainable finance beyond just Government putting money in, then it doesn't really matter what you say in the strategy or the terms of reference, the agency will be restricted by the amount of finance the Government is able to put into it each year. So, I wanted to know whether you thought there was any opportunity for the agency not to become entirely self-sufficient, but to be able to generate its own revenue as well. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786711 110 En 2026-11-11T10:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2618&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2618&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786728 111 En 2026-11-11T10:30:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2661&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2661&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua The budget's going to be a real pain point in this discussion, I think. If you look back at the old WDA and work out roughly where the budgets are in today's money, it's not far off £0.5 billion. We are nowhere near that these days. I've been in committees over 10, 15 years trying to argue against cuts for economic development probably every year in that period. Only a few years ago we saw the Business Wales budget go from £30 million to £22 million, and that reduced the service that that entity provides. So, budget is going to be a real pain point. If we want this to do something different, somehow we need to find the money to give it the ability to do so, I think. There's no avoiding that. The £100 million we suggested is basically those three functions, their existing budget lines, bringing them together. It's about £100 million, £120 million. That's a starting point. If we're serious about this, we must have an idea on where that grows and how. As for other sources of income, yes, I would say we want it to be entrepreneurial in that sense, but I think it would be a very big leap for it to find the kind of money that we're talking about. Even if you look at things like the development bank, where you've got evergreen funds, because of the target market they're addressing, it's quite hard for that to make a lot of money and keep things ticking over. So, yes in principle, but I think it's no substitute for a real discussion about what the budget should be. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786730 112 En 2026-11-11T10:32:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2752&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2752&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12183 12183 Tom Montgomery AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12183 Montomery, Tom That's really the crux, isn't it? Because we can talk about getting the framework right and giving it statutory powers and all this stuff to go beyond the four-year cycles, but if it can't find a way to generate income beyond what the Government is able to give it, then it's forever going to go through periods of boom and bust, where there'll be good times when we're able to spend more on the agency and then there'll be lean times when we're not able to spend as much on the agency. So, its ability will change with the financial place of the Government. So, yes, okay. That's interesting to hear. Thank you.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786733 113 En 2026-11-11T10:32:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2794&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2794&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Shav. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786734 114 En 2026-11-11T10:32:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2796&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2796&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav Business often says, ‘Government, get out the way and let us get on with it.’ 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786735 115 En 2026-11-11T10:33:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2800&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2800&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 212 212 Janet Finch-Saunders AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=212 Finch-Saunders, Janet Yes, exactly right. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786737 116 En 2026-11-11T10:33:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2802&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2802&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav So, they say that, but we are setting up a body that has got a statutory footing. I guess my question is, when it comes to those operational decisions, but also decisions as to—. Is it the agency that signs off on a project, or is it the Minister that has to sign off? Because if it is the Minister, then does it mean that we are potentially going to create a further problem for business by having an agency decision? Are we just adding on more layers of potential bureaucracy when, ultimately, it requires the Minister's decision, their signature? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786741 117 En 2026-11-11T10:33:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2842&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2842&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I think it should be arm's length, shouldn't it? The agency should be able to do stuff. Otherwise, what's the point of having an agency in the first place? We've got loads of examples, right, where members of ours have done something, they've gone through the public support route, and then afterwards they've gone, 'That was a lot of work for what it was. We should have just gone on and done it ourselves in a different way.' And I think that tells you a lot about where we are with a lot of business support at the moment. That's what we want to solve, isn't it? If you get an agency that's a bit more fleet of foot, responsive to the private sector and what it looks like, has a culture of supporting, then, hopefully, we'll get things done a bit quicker and in a better way. But the starting point has to be, 'What does the business need?', and work from there, I think. I don't know if that answers your question, Shav, to be honest, but—.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786752 118 En 2026-11-11T10:34:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2894&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2894&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim Delegated powers. The decisions have got to be made by the right people, who own whatever those outcomes are that are looking to be created. And yes, you can put the mechanisms in place to make sure that funds have been identified for a given theme, and the structures around that, but you need to delegate the powers to be able to make the decisions as quickly as you can, within a good governance structure. Don't fall into the trap of having to have multi, multi, multi sign-offs. That would be my recommendation. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786335 119 En 2026-11-11T10:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2918&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2918&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786426 120 En 2026-11-11T10:39:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3217&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3217&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786338 121 En 2026-11-11T10:35:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2934&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2934&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav Okay. I've got a question around accountability and monitoring, I guess. What sort of outcomes do you think businesses are going to be expecting to see after, say, around five years or longer, that would demonstrate that the agency has been successful? And do you think—? Would success then be measured through investment, exports, productivity, business growth, job creation or any other indicators? What does that look like? What does success look like?  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786341 122 En 2026-11-11T10:35:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2967&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2967&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua It could be any one of those, couldn't it? This is why I go back to: what are you asking the agency to do? At the moment, the most concrete measure we've got from the Government is productivity. So, if you're asking the agency to solve the productivity gap, you would want the outcomes to reflect that, I think. Five years is quite a short time frame. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786347 123 En 2026-11-11T10:36:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2988&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2988&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav Well, you know, five—. We would have had a five-year Senedd term usually, but say 10 years. Let's give it 10. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786349 124 En 2026-11-11T10:36:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=2995&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=2995&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I think the first thing most businesses will see will be a change in the feel, the vibes around it, rather than necessarily hard differences. But, certainly, if productivity is the goal, you'd want to see some movement on that. We think there could be other measures. I mentioned earlier on start-up, business density, number of medium-sized businesses. Those are all things we would put into the mix. And then we'd want an agency to be measured against those, and accountable to a committee in this place, so that we don't fall into the trap of letting it do its own thing and not holding its feet to the fire.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786355 125 En 2026-11-11T10:36:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3028&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3028&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John I think one of those key things as well, looking at the four stages that Josh has alluded to there—start up, sustain, scale, succeed—I think measures against each one of those for outcomes would be really important. Because we want to address the fact that this should be a landscape where businesses start. People want to start a business, grow a business and employ people—then 'sustain', they succeed. They start, more businesses succeed. They scale, so we start to see those medium-sized businesses. The amount of times I've heard 'the missing middle' talked about, it's quite painful.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786359 126 En 2026-11-11T10:37:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3065&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3065&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav We really struggle to scale up here, yes.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786361 127 En 2026-11-11T10:37:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3067&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3067&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John Really struggle, so I think that's something that should be looked at. But then also 'succeed'—so, when a business succeeds, does it get bought and leave the country and the jobs go, or, actually, are we now a nation that is out bringing jobs in because we're acquiring businesses and we're staying here? One of the greatest joys I've had in my business is that we bought a business over in Bristol and we brought jobs over to Wales. Actually, there's still— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786365 128 En 2026-11-11T10:37:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3094&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3094&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12175 12175 Shav Taj AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12175 Taj, Shav We want those jobs. We need job creation massively.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786367 129 En 2026-11-11T10:37:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3096&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3096&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John We need job creation. But I think those four areas—. If we're looking at metrics, I would say those four areas are the things we would love to see metrics be put against. And I think accountability is really important. I'm accountable in my business. If we don't succeed, if we don't hit financial targets, if we can't maintain jobs, people are looking at me, and I think the same thing needs to happen. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786369 130 En 2026-11-11T10:38:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3117&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3117&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Thank you. Time's flying by. We've got a few minutes. Keira and then Alun. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786413 131 En 2026-11-11T10:38:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3121&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3121&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12166 12166 Kiera Marshall AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 Marshall, Kiera The Cabinet Minister has suggested that the key performance indicator for the agency will be the national productivity mission, halving that productivity gap. Would that show whether this agency was working for your sector or for your members?  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786416 132 En 2026-11-11T10:38:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3141&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3141&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I suppose it goes back to the last question, doesn't it? Not necessarily. You speak to businesses—. We did an event with the development bank on productivity quite recently. We had an excellent panel discussion with three businesses. And the first conversation you get about productivity is, 'Well, what is it? What does it mean to our business?' So, I think, to be honest, a lot of our members, they wouldn't necessarily engage in that topic, but that doesn't mean it's not an important topic. Businesses define success in lots of different ways. This comes up a lot as well, doesn't it? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786421 133 En 2026-11-11T10:39:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3175&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3175&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John There's an education piece, I think, around productivity. When I speak to businesses—. Myself, I found out what productivity was going to an FSB event 18 months ago. And I went back to my business partner and said, 'They're talking about this word "productivity".' But, actually, when you understand what productivity is, and productivity hero is, as a business, often that is what businesses are trying to strive for. They would like to grow. They would like to grow their turnover, employ more people. But I think it's an education piece. I don't think that can stand alone as the only metric that success gets measured against. But I would say productivity is an important metric, yes. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786681 134 En 2026-11-11T10:44:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3493&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3493&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786624 135 En 2026-11-11T10:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3218&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3218&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim I agree with some of the previous comments. Productivity is a badly understood measure and often interpreted in very different ways. Because of the cost pressures on business right now, actually, they're probably looking more productive than they were two years ago, but they're still finding trading really, really difficult, so they're having to get more productive within the things they can control within their business. It's an important measure, absolutely, I totally agree, but I think there are probably some others that are important as well that can indicate are businesses growing, are they employing more people, are they investing in technology that's driving productivity forward. There's probably some supplementary information that could support if you're actually seeing good productivity gains, for want of a better expression. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786631 136 En 2026-11-11T10:41:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3279&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3279&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12166 12166 Kiera Marshall AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12166 Marshall, Kiera Thank you. I was also wondering—. I think, in the FSB evidence, you mentioned transition arrangements. So, if this was up and running, potentially, next summer, you would need businesses to be supported through that. I was wondering what that would look like, practically—what do businesses need that transition to look like? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786635 137 En 2026-11-11T10:41:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3297&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3297&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I suppose the main thing is continuity of service. If you look at the three areas we identified, you'd want those to just continue while the transition happens and the accountability shifts, and then we look at what to redevelop and change further. So, yes, what we don't want is the world to stop, and then we all wait for the agency to start and there's a big gap. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786646 138 En 2026-11-11T10:41:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3319&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3319&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Diolch yn fawr. Alun. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786647 139 En 2026-11-11T10:41:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3321&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3321&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 4491 4491 Alun Cox AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4491 Cox, Alun I'd just like to return a bit to accountability and ministerial control and accountability of the agency itself. We live in a political field, right, which is different to the commercial field. We will have people here who will argue, 'Yes, the board should make the decisions; the Minister should allow that to happen', but, as soon as there's a decision that Members here don't like, will say, 'Well, why did the Minister allow that to happen?' That's the political reality. Where would you want to see that balance between the commercial operation of the agency and ministerial control? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786657 140 En 2026-11-11T10:42:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3374&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3374&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua I think it needs to be arm's length, otherwise we're creating a body, but—going back to the discussion we had earlier—it's not going to be a body that goes out and does things and takes opportunities, it's going to be a body that waits to see what the Minister tells it to do. We need a bit of that in strategy terms, but not day to day. So, yes, I think it needs to be empowered, but the accountability point is critical. We've been through this before with the previous WDA, we all know the history there, we all know where there were missteps, and we all know where there were things that were good and went right, so we should learn from that, I think. Someone made the point earlier on that devolution has changed as well. We've got a much more assertive Parliament here now, with a lot more capacity to look into things, so that, if an arm's-length body like this exists, I would expect it to be properly scrutinised, to be transparent, so that, yes, okay, it might make decisions that the Minister might not necessarily want, but at least those can be discussed, justified and people can be held accountable for those. I would think building that accountability in early on and making sure this place has a key insight would be really important. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786658 141 En 2026-11-11T10:43:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3447&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3447&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John I concur with that last point, definitely. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786659 142 En 2026-11-11T10:43:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3452&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3452&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Okay, well, just within time, diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much. I did note in your written submission—and thank you for that also—reference to international best practice in Ireland, in the Basque Country and Finland, I think, so that's something, perhaps, for another day. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786660 143 Cy 2026-11-11T10:44:11 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3469&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3469&l=en 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r tri ohonoch chi. Thank you very much to the three of you. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786662 144 En 2026-11-11T10:44:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3471&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3471&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Thank you, the three of you, for your time today and very useful contributions. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786866 145 En 2026-11-11T10:44:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3474&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3474&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 1822 Joshua Miles Miles, Joshua Diolch yn fawr. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786867 146 En 2026-11-11T10:44:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3475&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3475&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 7546 John Hurst Hurst, John Thank you. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786868 147 En 2026-11-11T10:44:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3476&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3476&l=cy 261111-2 2. Asiantaeth datblygu economaidd newydd 2. A New Economic Development Agency C 12566 Jim Davison Davison, Jim Thanks. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786667 148 En 2026-11-11T10:44:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3479&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3479&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Therefore, Members— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786668 149 Cy 2026-11-11T10:44:23 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3481&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3481&l=en 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Mae yna bapurau i'w nodi. There are papers to note. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786670 150 En 2026-11-11T10:44:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3483&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3483&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn There are a number of papers to note, as ever. Unless—. Content, yes? Sorry. Sarah. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786673 151 En 2026-11-11T10:44:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3490&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3490&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 12161 12161 Sarah Edwards AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 Edwards, Sarah Sorry, it's on, off, on, off, isn't it? Sorry. Yes, it was the grid infrastructure, 3.4, Green GEN. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786677 152 En 2026-11-11T10:44:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3499&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3499&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Yes. Well, that will be—. We will be looking at the grid in a couple of weeks' time. That could be relevant as part of those conversations and discussions at that time. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786678 153 En 2026-11-11T10:44:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3509&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3509&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 12161 12161 Sarah Edwards AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 Edwards, Sarah Is it at this point I ask whether it's possible for people to be brought forward to answer questions on that 3.4? 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786690 154 Cy 2026-11-11T10:45:21 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3539&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3539&l=en 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786682 155 En 2026-11-11T10:45:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3521&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3521&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Perhaps what we can do is we can raise that in the later session we've got this morning. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786684 156 En 2026-11-11T10:45:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3525&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3525&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 12161 12161 Sarah Edwards AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 Edwards, Sarah Absolutely, that's fine. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786687 157 En 2026-11-11T10:45:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3526&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3526&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn I'll flag that up, as we'll be looking at the National Energy System Operator and all the other things. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786688 158 En 2026-11-11T10:45:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3529&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3529&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 12161 12161 Sarah Edwards AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12161 Edwards, Sarah Thank you. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786689 159 En 2026-11-11T10:45:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3531&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3531&l=cy 261111-3 3. Papurau i'w nodi 3. Papers to Note C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn Unless there's anything else, we'll note, therefore, those papers otherwise.  16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786692 160 Cy 261111-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod ac o Eitem 1 ddydd Mercher 18 Tachwedd 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and from Item 1 on Wednesday 18 November I Cynnig: bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod ac o eitem 1 ddydd Mercher 18 Tachwedd yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix). Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and from item 1 on Wednesday 18 November in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix). 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786693 161 Cy 261111-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod ac o Eitem 1 ddydd Mercher 18 Tachwedd 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and from Item 1 on Wednesday 18 November I Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786694 162 En 2026-11-11T10:45:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3536&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3536&l=cy 261111-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod ac o Eitem 1 ddydd Mercher 18 Tachwedd 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and from Item 1 on Wednesday 18 November C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn And on that basis, therefore, I move— 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786701 163 Cy 2026-11-11T10:45:21 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16392?startPos=3539&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16392?startPos=3539&l=en 261111-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod ac o Eitem 1 ddydd Mercher 18 Tachwedd 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and from Item 1 on Wednesday 18 November C 8371 8371 Elwyn Vaughan https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8371 Vaughan, Elwyn —cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod a hefyd o eitem 1 y cyfarfod ddydd Mercher 18 Tachwedd. Felly, os ydy pawb yn gytûn â hynny, fe awn ni i sesiwn breifat. —under Standing Order 17.42(ix), to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and also from item 1 on Wednesday 18 November. If everyone is happy with that, we will move to private. 16392 7 2026-11-11T09:46:22 786695 164 Cy 261111-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod ac o Eitem 1 ddydd Mercher 18 Tachwedd 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and from Item 1 on Wednesday 18 November I Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:45. Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 10:45.