16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785127 0 Cy 261109-0 I The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784950 1 Cy 261109-0 I The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The meeting began at 13:30. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784870 2 Cy 2026-11-09T13:30:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=54&l=en 261109-1 1. Introductions, apologies and substitutions C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Welcome to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Cymraeg and Sport Committee. The position of Chair of this committee is shared between me and Mair Rowlands. We have received apologies from Mair Rowlands MS today, so I will be chairing this meeting. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and a record of the proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation is available from Welsh to English. We have received apologies today from Louise Emery MS and Mair Rowlands MS as well, of course. Are there any declarations of interests from the Members? No. Okay. Great. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784954 3 Cy 2026-11-09T13:31:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=114&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis So, I would like to welcome our witness today, Christopher, to the meeting, and to thank you for providing us with written evidence as well. And invite him to—. Could I invite you to introduce yourself, please? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784931 4 En 2026-11-09T13:32:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=133&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes, of course. Christopher Catling. I'm the chief executive of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784933 5 Cy 2026-11-09T13:32:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=142&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much. I'll start now with an opening question, and then we'll go around the other Members to ask their questions as well. Beca, Mike Hedges and Gareth Beer are also present, but they're online. So, the first question I'm going to ask is: the Minister has described the Welsh Government's ambition to see culture, heritage and sport at the heart of our nation and at the heart of this Government's work—what would this look like from the royal commission's perspective? And how could this achievement be measured? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784936 6 En 2026-11-09T13:33:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=192&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Let me begin by saying that we are a very small organisation. We're 25 staff. I think I've given you, in the written evidence, a breakdown of what those staff do. So, we have very limited capacity to do anything other than what we were set up to do in the first place. Having said that, we are absolutely thrilled by the support that the Minister has given and the boost that she's given to culture, heritage and sport in Wales, and want to support it in every way we can. So, I continually say to my staff, 'We have to think about real world problems. What is it that culture can do to help to resolve some of the real world problems that we face?' Problems like the appalling figures for mental health in young people, in particular, the numbers of young people out of work or education, and the reduction in the degree to which people take part in sport any more—what can we do to help with all of those things? The answer is, in a limited way, we want to engage more people in our work, which we do. We've been quite successful at getting heritage lottery funding for community engagement projects, archaeology, studying the local history of the area, particularly around Aberystwyth, because that reduces our costs. We're based there, so we don't have all the expenses of travel. We contribute quite a bit to educational—. We provide educational materials to the Hwb and we work with teachers. We bring them to our premises, we show them the resources that we've got to help them understand their local history and deliver the cynefin element in the curriculum. We do a lot of guided walks—for people with special needs and for people with disabilities and so on as well. So, we're doing everything we can to contribute to that. I can hear critics saying in my head, 'But that's treating heritage in an instrumental way for values other than what you were set up to do.' But, personally, I feel very strongly that we have to address real-world problems as well as enhance the archive by recording the buildings and the archaeology that we do. How measured? Again, it's—. You can make interventions in people's lives on a very small scale. What's really needed is big—big interventions, big numbers. And people's lives—. I mean, the big statistics are going to be how many people you help into apprenticeships or training schemes or jobs. That's the sort of real measure of your success, but quite elusive as an ambition. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784857 7 En 2026-11-09T13:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=300&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784914 8 Cy 2026-11-09T13:36:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=388&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much. Do you feel as if you have truly made a difference through your work? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784916 9 En 2026-11-09T13:36:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=399&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Oh, yes. Absolutely, and more and more so. In the last decade I think we've come to raise our horizon from the core business of recording buildings that we're going to lose because of their demolition or their change of use or whatever, into being an organisation that works with many, many community groups around Wales. And there is a strong sense—. I think we're valued, as an organisation, much more now. I think one measure of that, you know, in terms of how we measure these things, is we've recently advertised for a chair and three new commissioners, and we had a record—. The public appointments unit told us that a record number of people had applied for those posts, in terms of what they normally get applying for public positions. So, to me, that's a measure—. So, in actual numbers: 25 people applying for a commissioner role, seven applying for a chair's role. So, that's 32 in total. And I think that's a big change from previously, where we would perhaps have struggled and I would have had to encourage people I knew who would be potential commissioners to apply. I think that's a measure of how Wales now perceives us as an organisation. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784923 10 Cy 2026-11-09T13:38:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=480&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much. I'm going to go to Niamh now to ask the next questions. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784925 11 Cy 2026-11-09T13:38:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=485&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Thank you, Chair. My questions are related to staff more specifically. So, the first question will relate to whether—. Can you give us an idea of what the situation looks like now in terms of staffing levels and how that's changed over the past few years for you? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784932 12 En 2026-11-09T13:38:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=504&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher We've literally reduced, in the last 10 years, from 54 staff down to 25 because our budgets have remained flat. So, the only way we've been able to stay within budget is by freezing posts when people retire and move on to other jobs. We've been able to supplement that core staff with staff on contract by being quite successful at winning funding from the National Lottery or from research councils. So, when we are able to obtain a grant, we hire a separate group of people to deliver it. We're not using Welsh Government funds to deliver that project, it's a 'supplement to' and it enhances what we're able to do. So, for example, we've been studying nonconformist places of worship for 10 years now, but the recent grant from the National Lottery Heritage Fund for our Capeli Cymru project has meant that we've been able to step it up—a big scale uplift. We've reached a point where, now, the loss of any staff is—. We're vulnerable to the loss of any member of staff because many of them are performing unique functions and if we can't replace them, then that function ceases. And to give you a specific example of that: we used to provide a huge amount of help and advice to local authority conservation officers. We provided a service whereby, for listed building consent applications, they wanted our advice—. They value our advice because we have a pan-Wales understanding of the resource, and we can say to them 'yes' or 'no', 'This is or is not something that you should approve', but more importantly than that, we can give them pre-planning advice, so actually meeting the owners of properties and explaining to them what's special about their property, and how to protect and enhance it. We've had to freeze that post, but I am working hard with Cadw, and with our sponsored division in Welsh Government, to try and get a little bit of extra funding to restore it. Because conservation officers valued it so much and are now asking, 'What's happening?' So, that's the situation at the moment. If we lose a member of staff, the function goes. In terms of our budget, about 80 per cent is staff costs, another 12 per cent or so are fixed costs, like computer cyber security and software licences and data preservation, those sorts of things. So, you can see there's very little wriggle— 'headroom', is that the correct term? There's not a lot of headroom left for other things. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784781 13 En 2026-11-09T13:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=600&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784841 14 En 2026-11-09T13:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=900&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784798 15 En 2026-11-09T13:41:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=668&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Diolch. And what is the morale like with staff at the moment as well, because that drop you mentioned in 10 years—? I think you said as well you're a small but highly productive team, and that's obviously shown in the work you do. So, when you lose one member of staff, as you say, it can be quite significant, but the amount you've lost in the last 10 years—how does that impact the morale and also the work that you want to do? How much staff would you need, do you think, to achieve what you want to achieve? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784804 16 En 2026-11-09T13:41:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=696&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Well, working in heritage is more of a vocation, it's a passion, and my colleagues are just wonderful at picking up. So, we have a member of staff at the moment who's been diagnosed with a very serious illness and is likely to be out of office for the next six months, and people have readily stepped in to take up the work, which is quite vital, because it's community engagement. They've been wonderful. But staff surveys have shown that it is placing a strain on staff. How many people would make a difference? Well, I set out a business case, which I sent to the Minister, and she's acknowledged and thanked me for setting out the case for 10 additional staff. So, that would take us to 35. But I've prioritised them, and the top priorities would be—. The local conservation officer advisory function would be No. 1, then cyber security, which is an increasing problem for us—I mean, literally, daily, there are messages from Welsh Government cyber security, asking us to check various things, vulnerabilities that they've discovered—and then the third one would be the library and enquiries service, which is our public service, where people come in and look at the archives. We've got three members of staff, which sounds a lot, but, in fact, if somebody's on holiday, if somebody goes to the loo, if somebody's having a lunch break or whatever—there has to be one person all the time in the search room, and another person going and fetching stuff. So, as you can see, with three people, managing that is quite difficult. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784817 17 En 2026-11-09T13:43:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=798&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Diolch. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784818 18 En 2026-11-09T13:43:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=800&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Diolch yn fawr. You raised something there about conservation officers in councils. What happens if there isn't a conservation officer in a council, because I'm aware that that is the case, or has been the case, in my constituency? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784820 19 En 2026-11-09T13:43:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=818&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher I agree, this is very problematic. What tends to happen is that the planning department will pick up the conservation aspects of the work, but without necessarily having the specialist expertise to judge the list of building consent applications. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784823 20 En 2026-11-09T13:43:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=839&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Right, okay. That's something that— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784824 21 En 2026-11-09T13:44:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=841&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher It is a problem. There is a high turnover of conservation officers in local authorities, which, again, shows that our help and support and upskilling of those conservation officers is a vital service. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784828 22 En 2026-11-09T13:44:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=856&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Does Cadw provide any of that type of thing? Can you work with them to be able to— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784833 23 En 2026-11-09T13:44:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=861&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher We do work very, very well with Cadw, and we have a built environment forum that meets regularly, which brings conservation officers together from all over Wales, and keeps us up to date with the latest policy guidance and case studies of good examples, of good reuse, for example, of listed buildings. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784837 24 En 2026-11-09T13:44:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=886&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Is there a statutory requirement for councils to have conservation officers? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784838 25 En 2026-11-09T13:44:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=890&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Not that I'm aware of. And, in fact, many local authorities across the UK have reduced their conservation officer cover because they are struggling financially. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785024 26 En 2026-11-09T13:49:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1198&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784986 27 En 2026-11-09T13:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=900&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786279 28 En 2026-11-09T13:45:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=901&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Right, okay. Thank you very much for that. I'm going to go to Beca next, who's online. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784987 29 Cy 2026-11-09T13:45:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=912&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon. How does the commission engage with the process of developing the Welsh Government's culture and sport strategy? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784988 30 En 2026-11-09T13:45:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=926&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Right. Later this week, I'm helping Welsh Government organise a series of workshops at the national library, at the Minister's request. She's particularly interested in talking to people who would not normally be consulted, so I've taken on responsibility for trying to bring together community, heritage, culture and sport groups to come and give their feedback to the Minister. I've been thinking hard about—. It's such a big topic, how do you get people to give valuable feedback? In addition, we need to think very hard about what we can do at little cost. It's not—. Financial constraints mean that we can't say, 'We can do this provided you give us several million pounds.' I think, thinking about it, the big issue that is beginning to form in my mind is the need to recruit people from the community who volunteer to be the cultural hub in whatever it is they choose to do, so the person who runs the football or hockey club, the person who helps to fundraise for the local church and so on. So, I think my thinking is revolving at the moment around how do we encourage a spirit, an ethos of volunteering in this sector, and how do we skill people to do that work. I'm also very keen to hear from the community groups who take part in the workshops this week how they encourage young people to get involved in heritage, culture and sport. What is it that—? Are there any ideas that we can copy? Are people even aware of the challenges? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785004 31 Cy 2026-11-09T13:47:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1035&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much. We're going to move forward to questions on funding now. Paul, can you—? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785005 32 En 2026-11-09T13:47:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1044&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul Diolch, Gadeirydd. I know that you touched on funding a little bit earlier. Given the Welsh Government's commitment to increase funding year on year for the sector, and I note you mentioned earlier that you've already sent a business case to the Minister, what further discussions are you actually having with the Government about your future financial arrangements? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785006 33 En 2026-11-09T13:47:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1068&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher We have regular meetings with our sponsors in Welsh Government, in the directorate of culture, sport and tourism. I've literally come from one of those meetings just now, making the case to them for some extra expenditure. They won't know until next week what the allocation from Welsh Government is to the division, the culture, sport and tourism division, but I'm hoping that, when they know that figure, we'll be looked upon favourably for a small increase. I'm not greedy, I'm not looking for big amounts of money, but a small amount—£70,000—would make a difference. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785014 34 En 2026-11-09T13:48:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1114&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul And the Government has made that quite clear to you today, then? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785015 35 En 2026-11-09T13:48:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1117&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher No, they haven't made it clear to me. They've said, 'We don't know until we hear the outline of the budget next week.' 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785018 36 En 2026-11-09T13:48:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1123&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul Okay. Are there any areas of your statutory or core responsibilities that you believe are actually being under-resourced at the moment? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785019 37 En 2026-11-09T13:48:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1132&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Well, I would say the entire enterprise is under-resourced. But in thinking about that, I'm a realist, and I know what the demands are upon Welsh Government's funding, and I know that there are really pressing priorities. So, what I tend to think about now—raising a new topic here—is how we can achieve the kind of capacity that we need in order to do our job properly, the stewardship of the historic environment in Wales. I'm beginning to think that, if you add together ourselves, Cadw and Heneb, you've got a historic environment service of some scale and capacity. So, you probably are aware that we've had discussions with Cadw over 18 months about the possibility of integrating the two organisations. I'm sure that's going to come back on the agenda once the cultural strategy has been agreed. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784930 38 En 2026-11-09T13:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1200&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul In your evidence to us, you've highlighted compliance that you have to report on on a very regular basis, for example, on cyber security, access, diversity, and other things as well. What discussions have you had with the Welsh Government about compliance in a perfect world? And what additional investment do you believe you need to enable you to fully deliver on that compliance? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784939 39 En 2026-11-09T13:50:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1231&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher I'm just trying to remember the three pieces of compliance that have come in this week. We have been asked to complete a questionnaire about our contribution to biodiversity, to the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and to children and young people. The problem with a lot of these questionnaires is that they're scattergun. Everybody gets asked exactly the same questions, regardless of whether you've got any leverage, whether you've got any influence on any of those policies. The impact upon us is that we now have to have somebody whose full-time job—well, she's actually three days a week—but it is a fairly hefty job, simply complying with all of these demands. Sometimes, I wish I could send out a questionnaire of my own, saying, 'Have you all complied with your duties of stewardship towards the historic environment, please? Answer the following 10 questions.' Yes, it's a burden. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784945 40 En 2026-11-09T13:51:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1298&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul And you mentioned earlier on, in response to Niamh's question, that you've seen quite a significant reduction in your staffing numbers over the last few years. Are there any particular skills gaps or succession planning concerns that you'd like the Welsh Government to address in those circumstances? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784947 41 En 2026-11-09T13:51:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1319&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher It's exactly that: it's succession planning. The skills that my colleagues have are not ones that you learn by going to college and reading books. They're skills that are learned by working alongside people who've got the knowledge and experience and can pass it on, and that's how I learned. So, the fact that we have a large number of singleton posts—we employ the only person in Wales who's responsible for maritime heritage; we employ the only person in Wales who undertakes aerial reconnaissance during the summer months; we employ the only expert in geomatics in Wales, and so on—the loss of that post, without having passed on what is—. These are not transferable skills. They're not the sort of thing you can go out into the open market and say, 'I want so-and-so.' What you'd actually be doing would be poaching from archaeological and architectural consultancies, or from heritage agencies in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, or possibly even here. So, yes, singleton posts is one of the big issues on our risk register. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784953 42 En 2026-11-09T13:53:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1392&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul Okay. Diolch, Gadeirydd. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784955 43 En 2026-11-09T13:53:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1395&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Diolch yn fawr. Nick.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784957 44 En 2026-11-09T13:53:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1397&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Thank you. Hi. I think Niamh and all have answered some of my questions, actually. It sounds to me that you've got this capacity deficit, and even if you had the 10 extra positions, would that get you to a place where you were able to get the succession in place, where you would be able to deal with compliance? Really, that's almost taking you to your baseline— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784960 45 En 2026-11-09T13:53:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1421&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher It is.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784962 46 En 2026-11-09T13:53:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1422&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick —and without that, it's a real struggle. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784963 47 En 2026-11-09T13:53:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1424&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher It would give us the foundation to build on and respond, for example, to the Minister's call for all of us as public sector bodies to contribute to the preventative health agenda, for example.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784964 48 En 2026-11-09T13:54:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1442&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick But does that also lead into—you talked about it earlier—the potential to collaborate, to merge with the other organisation? Is that because it's the best thing to do for your organisation, or are you being left with no alternative option because, the way things are going, you simply can't comply with your statutory requirements, or the statutory things you're supposed to be doing? And therefore, it's out of reluctance, perhaps, or is it out of best practice—? Is it going to be a better organisation, or is it simply something you have to consider? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784969 49 En 2026-11-09T13:54:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1475&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher It began, as you say, out of necessity: could this make a difference? But the more I think about it and the more I've had discussions with others in the sector, the more I think that it offers a creative opportunity to think through what Wales needs in terms of a national institution responsible for the stewardship of the historic environment. So, I see it as a very creative opportunity, as long as we don't just carry on doing what we've always done. It would need fresh thinking. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784906 50 En 2026-11-09T13:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1500&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785023 51 En 2026-11-09T13:59:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1799&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784935 52 En 2026-11-09T13:55:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1508&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick So, it's something that you would consider potentially positively. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784938 53 En 2026-11-09T13:55:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1510&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes. Oh, absolutely, yes. I want to be as positive as possible. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784940 54 En 2026-11-09T13:55:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1514&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick I have got some more questions on that, but that's a different question that someone else might pick up, so I can elaborate on that afterwards, if you like. Thank you.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784941 55 En 2026-11-09T13:55:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1521&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Yes, okay. We will be moving on now to ask about your relationship with Cadw, your organisation's relationship. So, Niamh, would you like to start with that?  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784944 56 En 2026-11-09T13:55:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1535&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Diolch. Yes, I know that this has been going on for a couple of years now, the 'will they, won't they?' with the merger, and there have been pieces of work and different opinions from different people in charge in Government. You kind of touched upon it, in response to Nick, that you see it as quite a potentially positive area. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784997 57 En 2026-11-09T13:55:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1552&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784998 58 En 2026-11-09T13:55:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1554&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh I wanted to know what key considerations would need to be had if that merger were to happen, from your perspective, and if you've had these discussions as well with the new Welsh Government. Because where we last left off with the previous one was that it was still unknown what the next steps are, after that report was brought out about it. So, yes, it was just getting your thoughts, and if you could give us an update on where we're at now with it.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785001 59 En 2026-11-09T13:56:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1581&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes, absolutely. Where we were until the election in May was that we had identified the integration of Cadw and the royal commission as delivering quite a number of benefits, but with some issues that remain to be resolved. One was the cost of integration. Another was the future of the national monuments record of Wales, because if we had merged with Cadw, we'd have been in the very unusual position of having a Government Minister responsible for a public archive. And there were real concerns at the time because various manifestos were talking about 'the correct version of history', for example, or 'an official version of history'. We didn't want to see ministerial interference in what should be collected by an archive, what should be made available, what should be disposed of. So, that remained an area of concern. Where we are in the discussion with Welsh Government, I don't have any official sanction to say this, but I do think that what's going to happen is that we're going to consider the culture strategy and priorities first, and then consider what institutions Wales needs to deliver the strategy. And it's in Plaid Cymru's manifesto that they want to look at the effectiveness of the four organisations, Visit Wales, Cadw, Creative Wales and the Arts Council of Wales. And I think when they say 'look into the effectiveness', the effectiveness to do what? Well, to deliver the agreed strategy once we've defined it. So, I think there's a timescale there and a series of things that will happen. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785007 60 En 2026-11-09T13:58:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1700&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Okay. And going back as well to a paper that the previous Welsh Government gave to the predecessor committee, it also noted at the end that legislation was identified as the preferred approach to achieve this protection. Of course, we'll talk about more long term again after the culture strategy, as you mentioned. Is it your opinion as well that legislation is the way forward when it comes to the merger? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785010 61 En 2026-11-09T13:58:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1723&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher It would be the optimum solution, similar to the way that Welsh Government has a statutory responsibility to maintain historic environment records, something they delegate to Heneb. And they also have a statutory duty to maintain a list of historic place names in Wales that can be used as a resource, and they've delegated that to us. So, if we made it a statutory duty of Welsh Government to maintain a national monument record for Wales, that would be essentially what we would be asking for. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785016 62 En 2026-11-09T13:59:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1757&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Diolch. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785017 63 En 2026-11-09T13:59:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1761&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Nick. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785020 64 En 2026-11-09T13:59:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1761&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick [Inaudible.]—about the independence. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785021 65 En 2026-11-09T13:59:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1768&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher On the ministerial interference? Yes, yes it would. There are a couple of other models. The TNA, the National Archives in Kew, is a non-ministerial Government department, which means that it's accountable to Westminster, but the Minister delegates his or her powers to the chief executive of TNA. So, that's another model. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785022 66 En 2026-11-09T13:59:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1797&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Thank you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784650 67 En 2026-11-09T14:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1800&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Steven. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784651 68 En 2026-11-09T14:00:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1801&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven I think you've actually touched on quite a few of the bits I wanted to talk about. I want to bottom out this relationship between you and Cadw. It sounds like, from what you're saying, especially with the conservation office, you're already working together or trying to get a degree of integration.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784652 69 En 2026-11-09T14:00:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1819&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher We're very complementary. There might be a perception that we duplicate. We don't. We're complementary in our work. We are, if you like, the research arm of the historic environment sector. We make recommendations to Cadw for what should be listed or scheduled and protected, and they then take it on from there. They devise policy. That's their job, advising the Minister, whereas our job is recording heritage that's being lost, heritage at risk, and providing a service to people who need that information for planning purposes, master planning, education, research, whatever. We work very closely with Cadw. We consult each other. We have regular meetings. When we went to the Eisteddfod in August, we offered them the use of our stand because they didn't have their own, so we presented a joint front there. I think there's a very strong desire for us to work even more closely together. We are about to do a project with them to celebrate the centenary of the opening to the public of Bryn Celli Ddu on Ynys Môn, the Neolithic chambered tomb. We will produce an exhibition for Oriel Môn and a booklet about it to support what Cadw is doing. If we've got skills or capacity that they might not have, we provide it. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784653 70 En 2026-11-09T14:02:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1921&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Again, I think you touched on safeguarding and versions of history as well. I know, within Cadw, there is a decolonisation agenda. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784654 71 En 2026-11-09T14:02:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1933&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784655 72 En 2026-11-09T14:02:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1934&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven I don't know if there's one within—  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784656 73 En 2026-11-09T14:02:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1937&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher We've been very much part of that. They drew on our databases in order to identify potentially controversial—  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784657 74 En 2026-11-09T14:02:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1944&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven How do you safeguard that you're actually, I suppose, telling—? You're not just telling another version of history. Here, you've maybe got a more traditional version, and then you're just telling another version, and you're kind of maybe obscuring— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784658 75 En 2026-11-09T14:02:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1957&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Absolutely. No, no, there's no intention on anybody's part, either ours, the Minister's or Cadw's part, to censor anything. It's just a question of consciousness raising, making people aware of the histories of these monuments, buildings and people in the way that the National Trust has done and other organisations. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784659 76 En 2026-11-09T14:02:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1974&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Is there a price tag on that?  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784660 77 En 2026-11-09T14:02:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=1976&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Okay, to put it in figures, I think we found about 32 examples of contested heritage. So, it's not big scale. The opposite side of identifying contested heritage is what's been happening in Wales, which is celebrating people for other achievements. We've seen a lot of monuments being created and opened to people who've contributed to Welsh identity, through education, poets, novelists, musicians and so on. So, there's a positive side to that as well. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784661 78 En 2026-11-09T14:03:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2012&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven I won't ask you now what those 32 examples are, but— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784662 79 En 2026-11-09T14:03:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2015&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Well, they're quite well known. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784663 80 En 2026-11-09T14:03:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2017&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven —if I could understand what those 32 examples are in the future.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784664 81 En 2026-11-09T14:03:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2021&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes. We've also worked with People's Collection Wales to create what we call a decolonisation kit, which is to identify inappropriate terminology that's been used in the past. And again, not to overwrite it, not to censor it, but to flag it and explain context and alternatives. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784665 82 En 2026-11-09T14:04:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2044&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Okay. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784666 83 En 2026-11-09T14:04:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2046&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Alternative terminology. More acceptable terminology. This is a very, very tiny example, but we used to talk about emigration and immigration. And these days we just talk about migration, because emi/immi implies—it's discriminatory. It implies that you're a foreigner. And migration has been a fact of life throughout history, throughout human history. That's just a tiny little example. I could give you many more. I can see you're sceptical. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784667 84 En 2026-11-09T14:04:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2076&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven No, it's just interesting because, again, all these words are very politicised. It depends, I suppose, whoever's visiting the monuments, what political viewpoint they take on these aspects. So, again, I think it's challenging in order to do this in a balanced way. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784668 85 En 2026-11-09T14:04:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2096&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher It is.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784669 86 En 2026-11-09T14:04:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2097&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven And I think it's challenging, especially where there's labelling something, how it's labelled, and to do it in a balanced way, which is going to take in the majority of your visitors to the— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784934 87 En 2026-11-09T14:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2100&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784959 88 Cy 2026-11-09T14:06:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2193&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784981 89 En 2026-11-09T14:09:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2393&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784982 90 En 2026-11-09T14:09:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2394&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784937 91 En 2026-11-09T14:05:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2109&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher I completely agree, and we welcome feedback, very much so. If we get it wrong, we get it wrong; we'll put it right.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784942 92 En 2026-11-09T14:05:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2116&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven So, sorry, how do you then go out for feedback on these various issues?  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784943 93 En 2026-11-09T14:05:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2125&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher People give us feedback whether we want it or not. We don't have to invite it. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784946 94 En 2026-11-09T14:05:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2128&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Right, so there's not a formal process to go, for example, 'We're going to label it, we know it might be controversial, so with this QR code, we'd like your feedback on how'— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784952 95 En 2026-11-09T14:05:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2141&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes, indeed. And also, we do it through our social media posts. We always invite feedback. There is a marvellous tool on the internet that will scrutinise the feedback that you get and tell you, on a scale of 1 to 10, how positive or negative it is. We've done pretty well up until now. Most of our complaints come about the software being down, Coflein. You're probably all aware there's been this major problem with internet PHP language vulnerabilities. For a while, people had to take their websites down to fix them. Immediately, we got a flood of complaints about, 'Why isn't Coflein available?', which is very positive because it means people are using it and they miss it. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784958 96 En 2026-11-09T14:06:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2190&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Thank you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784961 97 En 2026-11-09T14:06:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2195&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis When I had a look at your annual report, I was really surprised at how much engagement you have with communities, but also how much they engage with your websites. That was really quite impressive. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784965 98 En 2026-11-09T14:06:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2212&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher I'm very sorry that we haven't been able to provide the latest annual report to you, it's just that protocol demands the Minister approves it first, but it's with the Minister now and I will let you have it as soon as it's passed. I think it shows another record year of engagement and actually making a difference to our knowledge and our understanding and the lives of people in Wales. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784966 99 En 2026-11-09T14:07:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2236&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis I must say, having worked in the heritage and culture sector before coming here, I do really understand the value of heritage and culture and how it can, at the end of the day, help our communities understand themselves through looking at— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784967 100 En 2026-11-09T14:07:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2257&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Cadw has recently published a report attempting to put a monetary value on heritage. It's challenging. It's difficult. It probably underestimates it. It's the background to everybody's lives. It's difficult to put an economic value on general well-being and living well because your environment is well maintained. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784970 101 En 2026-11-09T14:08:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2285&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis But also, in terms of networks that are established through doing that work and the friends that you make and the— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784971 102 En 2026-11-09T14:08:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2296&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Two comments on that. First of all, yes, we've got a formal network of friends, there are now 1,700 of them, to whom we regularly send out newsletters. But engagement with heritage does have a very real impact on people's health, particularly mental health. We had a National Lottery Heritage Fund project looking at the archaeology of the Iron Age hill fort Pen Dinas above Aberystwyth and Penparcau. We worked with people who'd been recommended to us by Mind, the mental health charity, to take part. We did a pre- and post-participation survey and saw that, for people who were suffering from grief, loneliness, anxiety and so on, their mental health improved. The most fundamental reason they gave was because they felt that they were making a worthwhile contribution to the project. I think that says it all. People need to feel valued. It has a marvellous effect upon their mental health if you can give them something that will enable that. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784974 103 En 2026-11-09T14:09:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2361&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Niamh, would you like to—? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784975 104 En 2026-11-09T14:09:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2362&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Yes. This touches on something that's come up a couple of times. It's off track a little bit, sorry. It's to do with the cyber security side. You mentioned the work you're doing on the website as well. When the national library came here, they gave quite a scary overview of the struggles they're facing with cyber security at the moment, and also the AI side. I think they said there were bots coming in and trying to take information that the library provided. I was just wondering if you're in a similar situation as well. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784983 105 En 2026-11-09T14:09:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2394&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Absolutely, we are. We are very fortunately kept well aware of threats by the Welsh Government's own cyber security team, who are in turn informed by Government Communications Headquarters. They send out an immediate notice to us of things that we have to check. We have two members of staff who look after our IT. One of them is now virtually full time on cyber security, it's become that big, and it reflects all the tensions and problems that there are around the world at the moment of hostility from some nations. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784797 106 En 2026-11-09T14:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2400&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784869 107 En 2026-11-09T14:10:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2429&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Are you getting the AI side as well, with people—? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784871 108 En 2026-11-09T14:10:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2434&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Nothing specifically AI driven. We find AI itself can be a very useful tool, particularly for analysing our own data. There are large language models, and then there are closed language models. We're using AI to look at our data, where we feed the data that we want the AI to work on, and it's not accessible to anybody else. Whereas with an open language model, anybody can get access to it. But, yes, the royal commission is seen as a potential gateway to the Welsh Government's computer networks, so they're constantly probing us to try and find weaknesses. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784875 109 En 2026-11-09T14:11:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2477&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Thank you. That's interesting. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784881 110 En 2026-11-09T14:11:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2481&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Can you tell me a bit about your Capeli Cymru project, where you are with that? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784884 111 En 2026-11-09T14:11:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2488&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher That's a wonderful project. National Lottery Heritage Fund very imaginatively realised that Anglican culture gets all the publicity, the money, and Wales has got a proud tradition of nonconformist religious buildings and religious heritage. They were very keen to understand this better, to guide their own funding decisions. We are approaching the end of the first phase. It's a five-year project, the first 18 months is data gathering and developing a plan of activities for the remainder of the three and a half years. We're working on that report now. As part of the first 18 months, we've conducted an audit of nonconformist places of worship in Wales. There are about 1,700 still in use of the 10,000 or so that were originally built. We're conducting an audit. We've created questionnaires that we have disseminated, first of all through the major denominations. So, they've helped us—the Baptists, the Methodists, Undeb yr Annibynwyr Cymraeg, the Quakers, the Presbyterians, the independents, various others. They've asked their members to report back to us. But also we've crowdsourced information. We set up a website and said to people, 'Would you like to go and visit the chapel in your village or hamlet and tell us what condition it's in, whether it's still used?' We've managed to get data on about a third of all the existing chapels in Wales. That is information also about the future and what's likely to happen over the next 10 years and also what your needs are to maintain these buildings as places of worship. We're digesting that data now, ready to feed it into our recommendations for stage 2. Some of the clear steers that we've been given by congregations are that, back to what I was saying about volunteers earlier, buildings need people who are willing to step up, fundraise and look after them. They'd like to see us set up a network whereby people who've been successful at fundraising can advise others. It's about communication, more and more information, information about good examples of chapel reuse where the significant heritage of the building is retained in whatever the new use should be, rather than chucking it all in a skip or putting it on a bonfire. And advice on how to manage the archives, because many of these congregations have cupboards full of records going back to the early nineteenth century. Working with architects as well will be part of the second phase, discussing the potential for the reuse of these buildings, because some of them will inevitably have to close, and explaining to people what the closure process is and what the opportunities are for the community to intervene—if a community wants a building to be declared a community asset, how do you go about doing it. So, it's a whole programme of activity there that we're really looking forward to delivering and that will give us a strategic view of what's happening. I have a personal ambition. I've not discussed this widely with anybody yet, but I'd love to see a world heritage site. There are these transnational serial world heritage sites. This year, for example, it's the UNESCO-designated porcelain manufacturing centres in China. They're dispersed all over China. Could we put together fine examples of non-conformist architecture in Patagonia, the United States, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, everywhere where Welsh people have gone and settled and set up historic chapels? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784745 112 En 2026-11-09T14:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2700&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784819 113 En 2026-11-09T14:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2700&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784835 114 En 2026-11-09T14:15:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2759&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven While you were talking, I was just thinking about a question, because I know there's a Swansea in Massachusetts, and I was wondering if there are any linkages in your work with the Welsh tourist board and that sort of side, to try and get— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784844 115 En 2026-11-09T14:16:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2767&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784849 116 En 2026-11-09T14:16:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2768&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784853 117 En 2026-11-09T14:16:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2770&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Not with the Welsh tourist board. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784855 118 En 2026-11-09T14:16:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2772&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Or with the city itself, I suppose, to try and—. You know, this is the foundation where congregations basically moved en masse and founded towns in the US and others. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784858 119 En 2026-11-09T14:16:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2783&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher There is a very lively Welsh language publication in the United States that circulates amongst the Welsh communities in the United States, and they often report on our work. They're very interested in it, so we can build on that. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784890 120 En 2026-11-09T14:16:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2801&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Was the aim of Capeli Cymru to support people in finding new uses for chapels? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784892 121 En 2026-11-09T14:16:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2817&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes, that will be one of the outputs from the operational phase. We want to hold up good examples of how to repurpose these buildings in ways that are useful to society but also protect the heritage significance. Some really don't have a huge amount of heritage potential and could very easily be turned into low-cost accommodation and homes. Some that are much more significant in terms of what they can offer can be turned into artist studios or a mortuary—there's an example on Ynys Môn where it's become a mortuary, so it's kind of continued its original function. There are other examples. We want to be creative about thinking what is an appropriate and benign use for these buildings, and then to publicise these examples so that communities who are thinking about closing their chapel can actually have a checklist of things that they might think about. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784895 122 En 2026-11-09T14:18:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2886&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis One thing that's sticking in my mind is this: if the relationship between your organisation and Cadw were to become closer and you merged, what would we lose? What would be lost? What do you do that couldn't be otherwise done? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 784897 123 En 2026-11-09T14:18:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=2914&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher That's an interesting question. It did come up in our discussions with Cadw. We felt uncomfortable about being part of an organisation within Government, because the ethos is of—. What is the word? It's the BBC's principle. Impartial. That's the word. Within Government, in the civil service, you have to be impartial. We are proud advocates for the historic environment and for heritage and culture in Wales and we want to continue being advocates. Many of us are trustees—or chairs, even—of heritage organisations around Wales and we feared having to give up some of that work. I think that was the biggest sense of loss if we remained within Government. Coming out of Government, if Cadw—. Back in 2014, I think it was, when a merger was last considered, the proposal was to bring Cadw outside of Government and create a new organisation in Wales analogous to the national library and the national museum, with a constitution and trustees. I think that is a model that we might revisit. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785486 124 En 2026-11-09T14:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3000&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785488 125 En 2026-11-09T14:20:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3001&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Right. Thank you very much. Mike, you'd like to ask a question. Oh, you're on mute, I'm afraid. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785491 126 En 2026-11-09T14:20:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3020&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike I'll start off by declaring an interest as a Welsh Baptist. What's happening with chapels, they have ageing and declining congregations. They don't decide just to close. They close when you end up with very few people there. Some get down to three or four, and the three or four are probably in their 80s or 90s. So, I think that there is a need for some sort of strategy as to what to do with these brilliant older buildings. I have suggested that Tabernacl in Morriston be turned into a museum of Welsh religion. I didn't get very far with the previous Government and I'm fairly certain I won't get very far with the current Government on that. But what's your view on creating a museum of Welsh religion? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785494 127 En 2026-11-09T14:21:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3077&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher I'd welcome it, but we all know that there's a cost involved. When buildings close, there are furnishings and stained glass and textiles and all sorts of objects that have real cultural significance and value, and there is no home, there's no repository at the moment for that sort of material. But, having said all that, we've all got to be wary of the cost. But I completely am with you on the nature of the problem. It is declining congregations, it's elderly people, and, very often, four or five congregations merge into one. They sell four of the five chapels, and they raise money from the sale for good social purposes. So, nobody's objecting to that, and if the chapel is itself not a particularly special building—. So, really, it's a question of identifying those that are the most important ones in Wales that one should close only as a very, very last resort, if we possibly can. I think that's where we're heading. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785497 128 En 2026-11-09T14:22:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3150&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Diolch yn fawr. Mike. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785498 129 En 2026-11-09T14:22:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3155&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike We know which are the big chapels, don't we? I mean, some of them are—. Things happened, like in Loughor, at the start of the revival. We've got the grade I listed chapels. We've got one in Morriston, we've got one in Bethesda. Surely, there should be a view that those grade I listed buildings are saved no matter what. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785500 130 En 2026-11-09T14:23:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3182&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes, I completely agree, but not just the magnificent ones. There are some rather humble ones as well that represent the origins of nonconformity in Wales that we must also protect. So, it's not just the big and the beautiful, but, yes, I completely agree.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785501 131 En 2026-11-09T14:23:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3200&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis I'm just referring back to you talking about recording heritage at risk. In my home town of Merthyr Tydfil, there are several really significant buildings that are at risk. Two of them at the moment are going through a very difficult time and will be regenerated. And there are concerns about what's going to happen to the fascias of these buildings, basically. One of them is the Merthyr general hospital and the other is the Hoover site. Of course, there's also the synagogue, which is having a lot of work done on it. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785507 132 En 2026-11-09T14:24:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3258&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher That's a good news story. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785508 133 En 2026-11-09T14:23:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3199&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Yes.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785511 134 En 2026-11-09T14:24:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3261&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher The repurposing of that synagogue as a centre for study and understanding and appreciation of the contribution of the Jewish community to Wales is an outstanding project. We've helped with that one by understanding the building and advising what's original and how it would have looked originally when it was built as a synagogue. It is a huge perennial problem, and you might have seen in the newspapers in the last couple of weeks that the Westminster Government in England has decided to set aside a fund of money to help local authorities take control of buildings that are persistently neglected. It's not a big sum of money, and I question whether it's going to have the desired effect because, as soon as an owner is challenged over repair notices or compulsory purchases, they will go straight to court. Courts are expensive and local authorities typically don't want to have to spend money on legal fights. So, I'm not sure. But they're talking about confiscating buildings and auctioning the leases to local community groups and local businesses. Again, I've no idea how realistic that is as an idea, but it suffers from the fact that about 25 per cent to 30 per cent of all the neglected buildings in Wales are actually owned and managed by local authorities. And some of these big complexes—you mentioned a hospital and the Hoover site—are on such a large scale that it requires something pretty creative to rescue them. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785549 135 En 2026-11-09T14:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3300&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785557 136 Cy 2026-11-09T14:26:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3384&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh May I come in on that? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785558 137 Cy 2026-11-09T14:26:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3385&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Yes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785550 138 En 2026-11-09T14:26:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3386&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh I just have a question—[Inaudible.] So, obviously, you record the heritage that's at risk. Do you have a figure or an overview of what the scale is looking like of our heritage in Wales? Are there certain areas in the heritage sector where you're seeing that risk being even more significant compared to other bits? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785551 139 En 2026-11-09T14:26:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3408&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Cadw keeps a heritage at risk register and all local authorities also have heritage at risk registers. There's an interesting difference between Wales and England on this side because England published its heritage at risk register literally last week and it showed the number of properties that had been saved and rescued and the number that had been added to the list. I'm trying to think of some headline figures. One of them was in Stratford-upon-Avon. It was Anne Hathaway's—. No, it wasn't Anne Hathaway's cottage; it's Shakespeare's daughter's house in Stratford-upon-Avon that is on the register. In Wales, the tendency is not to provoke owners by shaming them, but rather to try to work with them. So, I don't actually have the figures to hand. I could probably get them from Cadw. We, ourselves, have had to focus on heritage at risk in our work because, with limited capacity, you have to focus on something. And we focused on schools recently because the twenty-first century schools programme meant that a lot of historic schools were made redundant and new, more sustainable buildings were put up in their place. So, we've done a big study of schools and I'd very much like to encourage schools to look at the history of their buildings as part of the cynefin element in the curriculum. And on 1970s civic centres, we've done a lot of recording of those that are going to be demolished because of local authority reorganisation or because those buildings have become unsustainable. So, those and places of worship are the three main strands, and then, on the maritime side, coastal erosion and sea-level rises mean that we're doing quite a bit of recording of coastal heritage sites—lime kilns, for example. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785566 140 En 2026-11-09T14:29:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3541&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Interesting. Diolch yn fawr. Mike—online—you had a question about historic place names. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785567 141 En 2026-11-09T14:29:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3550&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Oh, yes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785569 142 En 2026-11-09T14:29:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3558&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike Yes. I think that we have places that have been known by certain names, some in Welsh, some in English, some in Latin and some in Norman French. Should we be trying to protect what they're known as locally and the names that are used for them, rather than trying to translate everything into Welsh? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785570 143 En 2026-11-09T14:29:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3587&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Our role in this is to compile a register, a list of historic place names in Wales and then encourage local authority naming officers and developers, entrepreneurs, to use that list as the basis for naming their new developments. We don't have the power to force anybody to change the name of their house, street, business, industrial estate, shopping centre, or whatever, but we do strongly encourage it. There's a value in itself to collecting these historic names and understanding the way that they've changed and developed over time. They are dynamic. James January-McCann, who runs the list, is doing a huge amount. He's out, maybe, 10 days in every month, working with local community groups to collect names. A lot of them are oral—they're passed on by farmers and their families, and it's interesting, when you talk to them, and they'll say, 'Well, my grandfather called the field this, and we call it that', and they do change. We've applied for UNESCO intangible heritage status for historic place names in Wales and we've got through every stage so far. So, there is a recognition that place names are an important part of the heritage. And next year will be the tenth anniversary of the Senedd passing the requirement for the list to be set up, and we're going to mount an exhibition., I'd hoped it was going to be in the Senedd Oriel, but I think that's probably fully booked, so it might be at the Pierhead building. And we're going to produce a 98-page booklet that we're going to send to every school in Wales, explaining why place names are important and explaining their history and development. But we don't make a judgment. We're not there to tell people. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785559 144 En 2026-11-09T14:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3600&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785560 145 En 2026-11-09T14:32:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3724&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Can I ask what you think the role of place names has in terms of the regeneration of the Welsh language in Wales? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785561 146 En 2026-11-09T14:32:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3731&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Oh, it's absolutely vital. Speaking as somebody who's come to Wales, it's my way into the Welsh language. I've learned so much Welsh vocabulary through place names, and I make it my business as I drive around Wales to try and understand the place names, topographical names, names that tell you about the landscape, about the history, the people, the saints, the early Celtic church, the Latin origins of some place names. And I personally promote place names as an aid into the Welsh language. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785563 147 Cy 2026-11-09T14:32:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3772&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Nick, did you want to ask anything? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785565 148 En 2026-11-09T14:32:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3773&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Yes, I was just going to ask whether you felt anything else stronger than persuasion was needed. There has been some talk about legislation, hasn't there, enforcing people to keep names. I don't know what your thoughts about that are.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785568 149 En 2026-11-09T14:33:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3783&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher I remember the debate at the time, and, from memory, it failed the human rights scrutiny, that people have a right at the end of the day to call their house what they want to call it. You can't twist their arms and enforce them to change it. There was a piece of research undertaken, I think with Cadw funding, that showed that the main problem was businesses giving themselves English names, like The Happy Donkey Sanctuary—I think that was one that was quoted widely at the time—and holiday let companies who seemed to think that an English name, 'Bide-a-Wee', was going to be more acceptable to their customers than Tŷ Gwyn, or whatever. So, it was human rights. But local authorities can be—and I include in that the national parks—very persuasive, working with owners to persuade them to stick with a Welsh name, or revert to a Welsh name, or use a Welsh name, particularly when it comes to new housing estates, new roads, new industrial estates, new retail parks, or whatever. That's where our maximum leverage comes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785571 150 Cy 2026-11-09T14:34:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3876&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Are there any other questions from Members? Niamh, yes. Thank you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785572 151 En 2026-11-09T14:34:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3883&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Yes, it's following on from what Nick said. So, the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language said that the Welsh Government has actually started considering legislation to protect place names. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785573 152 En 2026-11-09T14:34:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3893&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Okay. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785574 153 En 2026-11-09T14:34:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3894&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh I was wondering if you've been a part of that. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785575 154 En 2026-11-09T14:34:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3897&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher No, but that's a very interesting development, yes.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785576 155 En 2026-11-09T14:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3900&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785577 156 En 2026-11-09T14:35:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3901&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh So, something you're not involved in yet. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785578 157 En 2026-11-09T14:35:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3904&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Not yet, but I'm sure we will be. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785579 158 En 2026-11-09T14:35:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3906&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh With all the data. That's fine. Diolch. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785580 159 En 2026-11-09T14:35:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3909&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick I have one last question, but I'm not quite sure whether it's your remit or not. Blue plaques—there's no blue plaque strategy in Wales, there's no one authority, is there, who is responsible for these? And I just wonder what your thoughts are. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785583 160 En 2026-11-09T14:35:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3924&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher That's a lovely idea. I'm going to take that up with Cadw.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785585 161 En 2026-11-09T14:35:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3930&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick At the moment, I think you've got to go through the local authority. Is that right? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785586 162 En 2026-11-09T14:35:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3933&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher I've no idea.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785587 163 En 2026-11-09T14:35:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3934&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick There we are. That's no good to me. [Laughter.] Thank you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785588 164 En 2026-11-09T14:35:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3939&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher But I like it as an idea. It's wonderful. It's very popular and, as you know, it's grown in England from being a London-focused initiative into being nationwide now, and people are invited to nominate rather than a committee of the great and good deciding who should be commemorated. It's the community that makes recommendations. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785589 165 En 2026-11-09T14:35:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3959&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick When constituents ask us about— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785590 166 En 2026-11-09T14:36:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3961&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Yes. That would be particularly valuable for many chapels, because there are people associated with those chapels, and that's their major significance. It's the value of the association of a hymn writer or a sermonist, or somebody who took a community to America in the early days.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785591 167 En 2026-11-09T14:36:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3982&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Interesting. Thanks. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785592 168 Cy 2026-11-09T14:36:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=3985&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much for your evidence. A transcript of the meeting will be sent to you for you to check that it’s an accurate representation of what you’ve said. So, thank you very much. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785594 169 En 2026-11-09T14:36:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=4006&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 4123 Christopher Catling Catling, Christopher Thank you. I've enjoyed answering your questions. I hope it's come across as very positive at the end of the day, despite all the problems. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785595 170 Cy 2026-11-09T14:36:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=4018&l=en 261109-2 2. Annual scrutiny of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785598 171 Cy 261109-3 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public I Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from items 4 and 7 of this meeting, and from the meeting of 16 November, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix). 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785599 172 Cy 261109-3 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public I Motion moved. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785600 173 Cy 2026-11-09T14:37:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=4020&l=en 261109-3 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis We'll move straight on now to item 3. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), the committee is invited to resolve to exclude the public from items 4 and 7 of this week's meeting and from the meeting of 16 November. Are Members content? Yes. Thank you very much. We will now proceed in private to consider the evidence and the papers that we’ve received, prepare to take more evidence today, and to receive briefings in preparation for future work. We will return to the public session at 15:00. We will wait to hear that we are in private session. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785601 174 Cy 261109-3 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public I Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 14:38. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786268 175 Cy 2026-11-09T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=-48600&l=en 261109-3 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786308 176 Cy 2026-11-09T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=-48600&l=en 261109-3 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786310 177 Cy 261109-3 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public I The committee reconvened in public at 15:02. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786267 178 Cy 2026-11-09T15:02:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5538&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Welcome back to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Cymraeg and Sport Committee. We will now move on to our evidence session with the Arts Council of Wales. I'd like to welcome the witnesses to this meeting. Could I ask you, please, to introduce yourselves? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786280 179 En 2026-11-09T15:02:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5560&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna Hello. I'm Lorna Virgo and I'm the director of finance and business services at the Arts Council of Wales. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786285 180 Cy 2026-11-09T15:02:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5566&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786286 181 En 2026-11-09T15:02:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5567&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie Hello. I'm Maggie Russell and I'm the chair of the Arts Council of Wales. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786312 182 Cy 2026-11-09T15:02:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5570&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786287 183 Cy 2026-11-09T15:02:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5570&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Good afternoon. I'm Dafydd Rhys, chief executive of the arts council. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786288 184 En 2026-11-09T15:02:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5573&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I'm the chief executive of the arts council. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786289 185 Cy 2026-11-09T15:02:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5575&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much, and welcome once again. I'll start with an opening question and then I'll invite other Members to ask their own questions. The Minister has described the Welsh government's ambition to see culture, heritage and sport at the heart of our nation and at the heart of this Government's work. What would this look like from the arts council's perspective, and how could this achievement be measured? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786297 186 Cy 2026-11-09T15:03:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5612&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Well, first of all, thank you for the invitation to join you today. As a council, we welcome the fact that, for the first time for several years now, there is a Minister with full responsibility for culture and sport. That hasn't been the case for some time. So, we welcome that and the sector welcomes that, truth be told. As well as that, we know that there is a strong voice, therefore, around the Cabinet table, making the case on our behalf as a sector. One of the things over recent years that has been an element of frustration for us—we are here to develop the arts, but we also contribute to education, health, and particularly so in terms of health recently—is that it's difficult, sometimes, to go through the Government to gain a full understanding from the different departments. And one of the things that we hope, with this statement by the current Government, is that that will become easier in the sense that culture isn't seen as something that happens in one department or silo, but that there are considerations of culture across discussions with other departments, such as health, education or the Welsh language and so on. So, we welcome that in terms of a new way of working, a new way of considering how to fund and to fund sectors such as ours fully. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786131 187 Cy 2026-11-09T15:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5700&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786132 188 Cy 2026-11-09T15:05:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5706&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Could I just ask you one question following on from that? How does the arts council perceive the difference or the similarities between the creative industries and the arts sector? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786133 189 En 2026-11-09T15:05:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5726&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Did you want to go first? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786138 190 En 2026-11-09T15:05:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5728&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie I'm very happy to answer that. I declare an interest: I've spent most of my life working either in the arts or the creative industries, so I've had experience in both those areas. I think one of the things, when you're working in the field, is those areas are intrinsically linked. So, perhaps we might notice it most around the things we see above the line—that actors move between productions in the theatre, productions on television, productions on film. But that movement and intersectionality happens at all levels, whether it's prop makers, electricians, all the craft skills. I'm very aware that I can trace individual examples of talent who started off as a script editor over there and is now writing a play for the Welsh National Theatre and has also worked on various other projects. So, I think, in terms of both talent development and workforce development, they're interlinked. I don't know if that answers your question. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786167 191 Cy 2026-11-09T15:06:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5798&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I would just add to that, if I may, that it's true across a very wide range of skills—in terms of marketing, production, carpenters, designing and building sets. One of the things that's interesting for me, too—I spent quite a lot of my career in the broadcasting sector, if you like—. One thing that strikes me as well—. A great deal of mention has been made recently about the film Effi o Blaenau. Well, Effi o Blaenau started as a stage production in the Sherman in Cardiff. There is a link there: if there isn't investment on the theatre level and the writers level—before they reach the creative industries—we won't see such films, or a sufficient number of them, being produced in future. So, there is that link there. I do remember—I think it was last year, or a few years ago—that the Government wanted to keep both separate. Our view as an arts council is that both, in terms of the creative arts sector and the cultural sector, need to be aligned in terms of any considerations. We do welcome the fact that they are now together in the consultation on a new cultural strategy. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786225 192 Cy 2026-11-09T15:07:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5874&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you for your response. But I would say, as someone who has worked in the arts over the years, in the community, that the sectors—. There are many similarities there, but there are also many differences, in particular in terms of—I just wanted to note—the way the sectors are run or operated. I don't know much about the creative industries sector, although I do have a certain amount of knowledge, because, just to declare, my own daughter is a freelancer herself, so I do see her working in the theatre, in film and so on. But something that always comes to my mind is the fact that there are so many differences between both. For me, the creative industries are run in a way where they operate in order to create content and to create a product perhaps, whereas the arts sector is a sector where it is more a creative process, which is very different—there is no end product, but it's the process of creating that. I feel that both sectors can be quite different in that way. So, do you have a response to that? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786232 193 Cy 2026-11-09T15:09:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=5987&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Well, I would consider that both sectors are more similar than they are different. I accept what you say about elements of the process being more important, but there's also an element in the arts sector where the product is also important in terms of audiences, and developing audiences. You have to have the right product to do that and to develop that. One of our guiding principles is public benefit, and it's important that there is public benefit in what we fund, but I accept your point. But I do think that there are more similarities, perhaps, than what divides us. I don't know whether colleagues would agree. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786003 194 Cy 2026-11-09T15:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6000&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786032 195 En 2026-11-09T15:10:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6029&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie I suppose I would like to think of it as a virtuous circle, so that there are individuals, projects, ideas that begin a life over here and then some of them transition, whether they begin in a subsidised arts world and then transition into a more commercial film or television world. Some don't. Some composers work across both sectors and are enabled by the higher wages they receive in one area to help get them through a much tougher time when wages in live events are generally not at the same high level. So, I suppose I would like to see in Wales a thriving interconnection between those sectors, whilst also recognising that we don't want to judge the live arts sector—let's call it that—by the matrix that we would apply to the cultural industries always, because I think that there is value in things that don't always have a product. I was at Rubicon Dance the other night, a community dance project. Well, that looks very different in the way that it works with its audience and participants. There's not going to be an end product for that, but the value is in that shared experience. But I would hope that in Wales we could be blessed to have an ecology between both those sectors that would benefit all of our artists, really.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786043 196 En 2026-11-09T15:12:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6136&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis As you say 'ecology', I think one of the things that we really need to do within the arts and creative industries is to map the ecology, because it is quite difficult. I've had experience of going into work in the arts and wondering, 'Where do I fit? How can I get in?', and all the rest of it. So, for transparency's sake and things, I think that mapping is important. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786044 197 En 2026-11-09T15:12:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6167&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie Interesting, yes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786046 198 En 2026-11-09T15:12:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6170&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Right, I'm going to move on now.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786048 199 Cy 2026-11-09T15:12:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6173&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis We're going to talk about funding. I would like to go to Paul, first of all.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786051 200 En 2026-11-09T15:13:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6181&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul Diolch, Gadeirydd. Your annual report shows participation across multi-year funded organisations falling from 695,080 participants in 2024-25 to 588,477 in 2025-26, despite actual significant levels of public investment. What in your view explains this decline, and what corrective action is being taken to improve this public engagement? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786052 201 En 2026-11-09T15:13:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6211&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Do you want me to go first?  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786053 202 En 2026-11-09T15:13:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6213&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna Yes, you go first. I'll follow on.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786054 203 En 2026-11-09T15:13:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6214&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I think there are a couple of things happening there, to be perfectly honest with you. I think that we're seeing audiences increasing. What's happening in Wales, we are something like 25 per cent above where we were pre-pandemic. The picture in the rest of the UK would suggest that it's something like 6 per cent. However, what is happening as well is that there's been a drop in the number of events. And that's to do with—. It's to do, partly, with the funding that we transfer to our multi-year funded organisations, in the sense that there is less funding to support the number of events. We are aware, in participation, I think it's down by 26 per cent, isn't it? I think those are the figures you referenced there. It's particularly down in young people and children. It's down in young people and children by 30 per cent, and that's a concern. And we're looking deeply into that. But one of the things that has been happening, due to the financial situation that the sector finds itself in, is that many organisations or venues that would host a lot of the participatory activity cannot afford to stay open for six out of seven days a week, which they used to do. I think they used to close simply on a Sunday. What we're finding is that with the strains of keeping a building open because of the increasing costs, some organisations might not open until the Wednesday, and they'll stay open Wednesday until Saturday. Well, that takes at least two days out of the week when that participation activity used to take place. So, it's a matter of concern. I'm really glad you've raised it, as we've been looking at this. But that is one, unfortunately, of the side effects of the fact that the financial difficulties that the sector is facing mean that some organisations or some venues simply can't stay open, and therefore be open to have those participatory activities happening as they used to.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786105 204 En 2026-11-09T15:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6300&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786106 205 En 2026-11-09T15:15:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6336&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul And given we've seen that decline, you're still confident that your funding model is fit for purpose.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786107 206 En 2026-11-09T15:15:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6345&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna Yes, I think we are. I think there are some aspects of what's in the accounts where there potentially isn't all of the information that has been received back by us from the organisations that we support, but absolutely the trend there is still that there is a slight reduction. I think that what's really important is how we look to support those organisations, both across revenue funding, but also capital. So, as Dafydd referenced, it's an increased challenge to keep those buildings open. Now, part of that is because of the operating cost, but also the cost of repairs and maintenance. So, we really welcome the additional funding we've had this year and last year to support that, but there's still an increased need, demonstrated by our own internal research, over the next four to five years, around £182 million. So, we recognise the challenge, we recognise that there is significant work to do, and that's why we would always advocate or speak about the need for longer term funding horizons, so that we can try and tackle some of those fundamental challenges within the sector. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786108 207 En 2026-11-09T15:16:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6410&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul You mentioned capital funding there. I know that, as an organisation, you've distributed more than £12 million through the Welsh Government capital programme, including major awards of £1 million to Elysium Gallery, £1 million to Venue Cymru and £1.875 million towards Theatr Clwyd. Can you tell us what assessment has been undertaken to determine whether these projects will actually deliver increased audiences, financial sustainability and economic benefits, and how will success be measured over the next five years when it comes to some of these projects?  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786109 208 En 2026-11-09T15:17:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6445&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I can begin if you like, and I can answer in English as the conversation is in English at this point in time. One of the fundamental considerations we have in assessment is that organisations have to prove that it enhances the sustainability of that business. That is key. And that by making those capital changes, whatever they may be in those organisations, they won't increase costs and come back to the public purse for additional funding. I think that's one of the fundamental points that we make. We assess that then in terms of, if that is not clear in applications, then we certainly wouldn't be funding them, in that sense. So, that's one of the key things. Other elements in there would be sustainability in terms of efficient energy, what are the savings that come with that, to make the running costs cheaper. I'm thinking of some of the other elements. Do you want to come in on that, Lorna? But I just wanted to come in on that fundamental point first. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786110 209 En 2026-11-09T15:18:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6506&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna Yes, I think I was going to follow on from what you were saying, Dafydd, in terms of how important it has been to recognise that the capital programme that we've had via the funding from Welsh Government is evolving, and that we are working within a relatively tight time frame to be able to deliver that funding, which does impact the type of capital projects that we can award. So, that has been another factor in terms of our assessment, but fundamentally it's about helping to support the sustainability of the sector. That may be financially, it might be environmentally. They work, obviously, quite closely in tandem. And I think what we've seen is that those applications that we're able to support have really been able to demonstrate that within their applications in terms of the impact. So, for example, the Minister attended an organisation where revised seating was put in place, and actually that application was really able to show us the financial impact of that new seating—all of the seats would be available. So, those types of things are really important to the assessment, and then the ongoing—. The way that we finance this capital fund, we need to make sure that that money is, obviously, spent by the end of the financial year. And so there's a huge amount of monitoring and assessment that's done in that period, to make sure that that is delivering exactly what it was supposed to. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786113 210 En 2026-11-09T15:19:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6591&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul And how do you ensure that capital funding is distributed fairly across Wales, particularly between urban and rural areas? How do you go about that? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785991 211 En 2026-11-09T15:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6600&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785995 212 En 2026-11-09T15:20:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6601&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna It's a key part of the assessment criteria. So, whilst we haven't segregated any of our funding to say it's for specific areas within Wales, we do make sure, as part of our balancing factors, that we are assessing those applications, and also, not just the applications that we've had in, but for future rounds, whether there are areas that we need to target in terms of more communication and more interaction with specific geographies, to make sure they're aware of the funding that's available. So, absolutely, as part of the assessment, it's really robust. It goes through a number of levels of assessment. The capital team, first, will assess those applications, and they don't come in without having some conversation with those organisations first, so that they really understand the guidance. What we then do is assess that internally. It comes up through the executive leadership team, and, at that point, we will look at those balancing factors—Welsh language provision, geography—to make sure that there is a balance there. And if there are areas where their success rate looks lower than others, we wouldn't necessarily change in this round, but we try to understand why and then look at how we can then help target awareness for those areas. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786000 213 Cy 2026-11-09T15:21:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6679&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd But we are also very aware that we serve the whole of Wales, and that is a very, very important factor that comes into our considerations on this. Recently, we have been seeing—. If we identify trends, if you like, where we think, 'Oh, there are not so many coming from the north-west for some reason', well, we then have to look into that to ensure that we communicate clearly with people in the sector in those parts of Wales. We're very aware of that. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786004 214 Cy 2026-11-09T15:21:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6708&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul And you assess that constantly, do you, as an organisation? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786319 215 Cy 2026-11-09T15:21:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6710&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Yes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786005 216 En 2026-11-09T15:21:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6712&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna Absolutely. We were really pleased in the last years, and also in the rounds that we've awarded so far this year, that there's been a relatively even split between mid, north and south Wales in terms of the success rates, as we would call them, in terms of the number of applications approved and delivered on. So, that is something that we're really happy about. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786007 217 En 2026-11-09T15:22:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6734&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 145 145 Paul Davies https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145 Davies, Paul Don't forget west Wales. [Laughter.] 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786322 218 En 2026-11-09T15:22:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6736&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna Sorry. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786009 219 Cy 2026-11-09T15:22:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6739&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Niamh, did you want to come in there? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786010 220 En 2026-11-09T15:22:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6742&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Yes, there's stuff I had further down the line, but I think it fits a bit better following on from what Paul said. There are two questions I had. Looking at the multi-year funded organisations map that was provided, I recognise where the funding's happening, but there is a big gap, I feel, in the Valleys area. If I look at Blaenau Gwent, for example, I think there might be one there in Blaenau Gwent on the map—I think. Merthyr Tydfil, not really much going there. And then you've got the poor middle of Wales, which is a bit of a ghost land when it comes to these things. Of course, it was nice to see the funding that goes to the schools, and that kind of covered a lot of areas that I represent, and others represent. But if we don't have those organisations, when those children and young people have that peak interest on an educational level in the arts, there's nowhere then in their own home, their own constituency or their own valley where they can stay to develop themselves. So, it was just something I wanted to know: what is your vision for that? Because these are more deprived areas as well. And then, the second question I had was with the multi-year funding. I think I'm right that you're supposed to be reviewing the organisations this year for the multi-year funding, but I don't think that's happened, has it? I was just wondering if you could elaborate on why that hasn't happened as well this year. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786021 221 En 2026-11-09T15:23:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6825&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie Let's take the first question first, if that's okay. It's been fascinating. When I came in three and a half years ago to be chair, I was really aware—. Dafydd had just been in post for a few months before I arrived. We looked at these cold spots, and it was very noticeable. There was a real cold spot with Blaenau Gwent; there was a cold spot in Anglesey. We've done quite a lot of work on that—and Dafydd can talk more about how we've developed that with the local authorities in those areas—because we were noticing, long before we arrived, that there had been a trend for many years of not receiving applications from those areas. So, there's something then about how we can work with local authorities. There aren't huge Theatr Clwyd or Wales Millennium Centre-style buildings across the whole of Wales, so you're not going to get that kind of level of activity. But what are the ways that we can work with development officers and we can work with local authorities? Dafydd can talk more about that, and perhaps we'll come on to your second question then. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786027 222 En 2026-11-09T15:24:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6895&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Dafydd. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786028 223 Cy 2026-11-09T15:24:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6895&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Thank you for the question. This is something that we've been aware of for quite some time. Elements of that relate to where we get those bids for funding from. We also assess our data on a regular basis. One thing that we did in the area of health, if you like—. I'll respond to the question, but in the area of health, one of the things that happened several years ago, before my time and Maggie's time, was we were co-funding arts officers in the health trusts in order to develop that. That pattern is a very interesting pattern. We then came to the conclusion that perhaps that pattern of joint funding with local authorities could provide us with an opportunity to trigger more arts activity in these areas that you refer to. There are three this year—and perhaps we're halfway through now. There are three counties that have been identified as areas that need particular support: one is Torfaen, one is Neath Port Talbot, and then Anglesey. There is a great importance for us to ensure that we serve those areas that have a particular level of poverty, and the arts can make quite a difference there. But what we hope to do is to use this model of joint funding over a period of three perhaps to five years, depending on funding. That will then help us to catalyse, so that we get more bids from those areas, and that those bids are of a higher quality as well, and also that activity happens there. It's very early days at the moment. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786152 224 Cy 2026-11-09T15:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6900&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786177 225 En 2026-11-09T15:29:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7144&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786160 226 Cy 2026-11-09T15:26:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=6999&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh What about areas like Blaenau Gwent and Merthyr? You've listed those three areas, but they weren't part of that list. I know that applications don't come from those areas. If you look at the map, there's just one in Blaenau Gwent and I think there might be one in Merthyr. Those two are also areas that are disadvantaged. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786165 227 Cy 2026-11-09T15:26:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7019&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Certainly, and we did consider that. That doesn't mean we are not taking action in those areas, but in this first year of the pilot scheme those are the three local authorities that we identified with the greatest level of need. Certainly, I would agree—. Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen work a lot together, as it happens. Our intervention in Torfaen doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen in Blaenau Gwent as well. I think that there is more joint working between those two local authorities at the moment. But I do accept the point that that there's a lot of work for us to do on that. We are trying, with this pilot scheme now, to see whether that can work as the model that we have previously tried in the area of health. The one thing that I would say in terms of opportunities for young people as well is that—we announced this last week or the week before—we have more money to support schools to go to see arts events, and that clearly targets those local authority areas. We announced that by saying that we have a great interest in getting applications from these particular authorities, and it's possible as well, within that fund, for us to increase. One of the things that schools told us quite often was, 'This is great, but the costs have gone up so much we can't afford the bus to get there. Even with the money that you are providing us, we can't afford the bus.' We can increase that a little bit. That is happening. Another thing that's happening, I would say, in the areas that you refer to, is there are things like Night Out, which is the community work. It's not multi-year, but they are project grants that happen consistently on a community level. That is on an upward trend, as it happens, in terms of the audiences engaging with that. So there are many ways of looking at it, but we do accept the fundamental point that we have more work to do in some of those areas. What was the second question? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786176 228 En 2026-11-09T15:29:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7141&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh The multi-year funding was the second. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786178 229 En 2026-11-09T15:29:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7150&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna When we set out the investment review and awarded the 81 organisations multi-year funding, we had communicated that, in the future, we would be opening up to new organisations. The process that we've undertaken is to review those current 80 organisations that are multi-year funded. We have undertaken that process, and there are now three outcomes for those organisations: either they're in a development year, they're in enhanced monitoring, or they've been offered a new three-year contract that will start in April 2027. But what we haven't had is the funding to open up to new organisations at the moment. That's one of the items that we put in when the Minister asked us for what would our ask be for additionality in funding. Some of that was around how we can support ourselves to open up for new organisations. But with funding as it has been over the last few years, that has not been possible, because there hasn't been an opportunity for significant changes within that set of organisations. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785830 230 En 2026-11-09T15:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7200&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785847 231 En 2026-11-09T15:32:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7324&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785848 232 En 2026-11-09T15:32:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7325&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785900 233 En 2026-11-09T15:34:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7496&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785902 234 En 2026-11-09T15:34:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7498&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785835 235 En 2026-11-09T15:30:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7214&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Following on from that, how does the funding of the new national theatre of Wales fit into the model? Is it one of the multi-year funded organisations? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785837 236 En 2026-11-09T15:30:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7232&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie The new national theatre of Wales—I won't go through the whole history of it—was born out of the funding that was given to wind up the old national theatre of Wales. The board asked us to pass some of the funding that had been assigned to them into this new organisation. That new organisation hasn't—. We haven't opened a new multi-year funding round, for the reasons that Lorna has discussed, but they are eligible to come to us for project funding. When we did the investment review, we undertook a number of strategic reviews, and we did one on theatre, and one of the things in consultation with the sector and from what we had learned from the investment review process was that there was a gap for funding of large-scale productions in Wales. So, we committed to have a large-scale production fund that all organisations could apply for. The current production of Owain & Henry applied for that fund and was granted just under £300,000. It's a project grant, so that is how Owain & Henry is funded. So, we don't have any ongoing funding relationship with the Welsh National Theatre. Does that answer your question? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785844 237 En 2026-11-09T15:32:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7322&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Yes. So, that's just one-off project grant funding. Okay. Because I was surprised when they were funded, because they hadn't been established for very long, and normally you can't go in for that type of funding until you've been established for more than two years. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785851 238 En 2026-11-09T15:32:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7336&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie They met the criteria to come in for it and they were awarded it, as was theatr genedlaethol and— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785855 239 Cy 2026-11-09T15:32:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7343&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Theatr genedlaethol and—. Was it Hijinx? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785865 240 En 2026-11-09T15:32:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7344&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie We can get the information. I can't remember the third one, but there were three. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785874 241 En 2026-11-09T15:32:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7352&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd They were definitely within the guidelines. I don't know whether two years is relevant to that fund. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785877 242 En 2026-11-09T15:32:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7358&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Right, okay. That was something that I was aware of before coming here. That was my personal thought on it. Steven, you wanted to ask a question about funding. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785881 243 En 2026-11-09T15:32:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7374&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Obviously, there have been financial difficulties, there's been restructuring. Dafydd, I know you get paid very well, which gets signed off. What I don't quite understand is how we judge what the key performance indicators are, how we judge if you're doing a good job, if the money's being spent well, or whether it's not going so well and we need to have a look at this. And that's what I'm not really understanding, so if you could kind of explain that, that would be great. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785891 244 En 2026-11-09T15:33:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7412&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd The KPIs of the organisation or the KPIs of me personally? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785892 245 En 2026-11-09T15:33:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7416&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Probably a bit of both, actually. The board, yourselves, how that all operates so that, you know—.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785893 246 En 2026-11-09T15:33:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7421&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie As chair, I am charged with the appraisal of the chief executive. I was not part of the appointment of the chief executive; I came in after. I go through a rigorous appraisal process. As part of that, it doesn't just rely upon my opinion; I canvas opinion and feedback from the sector and from the chairs of all of our sub-committees. We have a number of sub-committees—I think we've given you our organogram chart, so I won't rehearse that. I get their feedback. And obviously, there are a number of statutory responsibilities around the role of accounting officer and those kinds of things. Also, I meet with relevant civil servants to get feedback, and there are quarterly business meetings that the executive have with the civil service. All that information is taken into account when making appraisals and assessments of the chief executive, and those are shared with the relevant civil servants. I don't know if that answers your question around KPIs for the chief executive. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 785899 247 En 2026-11-09T15:34:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7495&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd We also have biannuals with the Minister as part of the governance structure, and quarterly monitoring meetings with officers. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786142 248 En 2026-11-09T15:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7500&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786161 249 En 2026-11-09T15:39:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7743&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786162 250 En 2026-11-09T15:39:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7745&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786145 251 En 2026-11-09T15:35:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7505&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven I think that answers what the process was on that. I'm not sure if it really answers my—. How do we then judge your biannuals and meetings? What's the, I suppose, grid we then judge on and go, 'Okay, we should be reaching this', whether it's people interacting with the various projects or whatever it might be. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786150 252 En 2026-11-09T15:35:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7526&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie The formal structure for that is, I guess, our remit letter from the Government, and also our framework agreement. I'm going to pass to Lorna to talk a bit more in detail about the framework agreement and the remit letter. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786151 253 En 2026-11-09T15:35:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7540&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna We have a remit letter that takes us across the term of Government, which sets out the requirements on us, and we then get annual funding letters, which are in more detail. That is something that we have to make sure is reflected in our planning, in the work that we're doing, in relation to the money that we receive from the Government. The other key document is our annual plan. That is something that's a very in-depth document, and it talks through all of the key activities that we're going to deliver, not just for Welsh Government funding, but also for the lottery funding we have. That is then shared with the Welsh Government and gets approval, and we then report on that on a quarterly basis. That's probably the key mechanism in terms of key performance indicators. Our framework agreement is that fundamental document that sets out the relationship between the two parties and how we work together. At the moment, our framework agreement is from 2012, and we're in the process of looking at getting a new drafted framework agreement with our colleagues in the Welsh Government. When that's in place, that will set out the new way forward. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786155 254 En 2026-11-09T15:36:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7613&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie The annual plan that's referred to is a very detailed document. It has a green, amber, red kind of assessment. Council meets about eight times a year for a full day, where we go through the scrutiny of the executive, in addition to committee meetings. We also now have additional capital meetings outside of those meetings. We scrutinise, as council, that document and those KPIs. So, we can say, 'Well, you said, as part of your annual plan, you'd deliver a strategic intervention in Torfaen. Have you delivered it? When did you deliver it? What is the outcome?' That's part of that scrutiny of council, and obviously the minutes of council. I don't know if that helps answer your question, but I guess the key working document is that annual plan, in the context of the framework and the remit letter. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786156 255 En 2026-11-09T15:37:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7674&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I was just going to add about the annual plan. I think what's key for me is to make sure that, when I report to council, we are delivering on the annual plan—what we said we would be delivering on. I think the other KPI as accounting officer is in terms of the responsible approach that we've taken to spending public money. I would suggest that is another KPI. That is in my personal job description as well. That is a particular responsibility. So, it's the annual plan, I think, that might make clearer what you're referring to in terms of annual KPIs and how we judge those and how they're measured and whatever.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786157 256 En 2026-11-09T15:38:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7718&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven Is that you setting it to give to the Government for them to approve it, or is it the Government setting it to send to you for you to go, 'Is that reasonable?'? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786158 257 En 2026-11-09T15:38:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7727&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna We set it, but it's in light of the priorities of Government in our remit letter. We have to make sure that there's consistency there, where that is relevant and important. I'd say it's a collaborative process in that perspective. We need to remember that we are an arm's-length organisation. As a charity, we have to make sure that we're adhering to those rules and regulations. But it's definitely something that is in line—. We make sure that we're following and we're dealing with any priorities for the Welsh Government, for future generations and a number of other things. We try and bring it all together in our annual plan. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786163 258 En 2026-11-09T15:39:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7765&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12191 12191 Steven Rodaway https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12191 Rodaway, Steven What happens if—sorry, Lis—there's a disagreement on the KPIs? I've not worked in your specific world, but I have been set KPIs in past roles. But what if you have a disagreement and go, 'Actually, that's not going far enough' or, 'That's not reasonable in the time frame you're giving us'? How does that process work with the feedback back and forth with Government? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786164 259 En 2026-11-09T15:39:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7792&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie I guess that's part of the biannual relationship that we have with the Minister. It's also part of the QMMs. There are some really important things, aren't there, because, if the funding envelope changes, we then have to look at what we are able to deliver as part of those KPIs. And that is never more true than when we are dealing with the fluctuation in lottery income, which is something you will be aware of, I'm sure, from our other colleagues like Sport Wales. So, I would hope that there would always be a conversation, but we are, inevitably, tasked with constantly making decisions because we can't do everything.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786088 260 En 2026-11-09T15:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7800&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786089 261 En 2026-11-09T15:40:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7841&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Can I ask people to make—? We're flying through the time, so if people can make their questions and answers a little bit more succinct, please. Right, I want to go to somebody on the screen now.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786090 262 En 2026-11-09T15:41:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7860&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Sorry, Chair. I have—[Inaudible.]  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786091 263 En 2026-11-09T15:41:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7863&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Rebeca. Beca, it's your turn now.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786092 264 Cy 2026-11-09T15:41:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7868&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Thank you very much, Chair. Just to go back to the pilot scheme that you noted earlier, of course it's great to see that Neath Port Talbot is part of that pilot scheme. I just wanted to ask how you measure success for this project. Thank you.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786093 265 Cy 2026-11-09T15:41:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7887&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Well, the success of that particular scheme will be measured in several ways, truth be told. It will be measured—. In the long term, the idea will be that we won't need any further money from the arts council to develop that scheme; it will be an integral part of the local authorities' work, and they'll see the value of that work and it will pay for itself. That would be the measure in the long term, in that sense. Our intention is that we trigger the start. It will also be measured in terms of how we develop the relationship in terms of whether further applications come in to us, what the quality of those applications is, how successful, or otherwise, they will be. So, there will be several ways of measuring that.  One thing that I would say is that the targets would increase year on year in the sense of this is what we hope to see in the first year—perhaps be two or three projects seeing a certain amount of support to start with—but then, in the second year, perhaps we would want to see more. Perhaps we would start to talk about developing a youth theatre company, for example, or something like that. So, there are a lot of factors, but that's how we will measure that, on how arts activity in those areas increases over a period of three or four years. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786586 266 Cy 2026-11-09T15:42:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7970&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca [Inaudible.] 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786094 267 En 2026-11-09T15:42:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7971&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Diolch yn fawr. Beca, rwyt ti ar mute. Wyt ti eisiau dweud unrhyw beth arall? Sori, roeddet ti ar mute ar ddechrau'r peth. Wyt ti'n gallu dweud hwnna eto, plis? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786339 268 Cy 2026-11-09T15:43:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7992&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca Yes, just checking that that is a step-by-step process, an iterative process. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786345 269 Cy 2026-11-09T15:43:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=7997&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd In what sense step by step or iterative—what do you mean? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786346 270 Cy 2026-11-09T15:43:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8002&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12172 12172 Rebeca Phillips https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12172 Phillips, Rebaca In terms of measuring success—you don't just award funding and then withdraw it, as has happened with other projects. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786348 271 Cy 2026-11-09T15:43:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8010&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd No, it would be step by step. The only thing that I would say is that if we were to receive a significant cut to our funding, then it is inevitable that some projects would have to suddenly come to an end. I very much hope that that wouldn't happen with this. The intention is—. There is a three-year contract signed, and our intention is to honour that. And there will be yearly targets in that sense too. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786350 272 Cy 2026-11-09T15:43:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8035&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much. We'll move on to Nick. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786352 273 En 2026-11-09T15:43:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8039&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Just very quickly, Maggie, you mentioned the National Lottery. In the last annual report, you mentioned that you were hoping for some significant growth from the National Lottery. I just wondered what has transpired or is transpiring.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786356 274 En 2026-11-09T15:44:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8051&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie Thank you very much. I'm going to turn to Lorna to talk about the National Lottery. Briefly, the news has not been great, but I will pass to Lorna. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786431 275 En 2026-11-09T15:44:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8063&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna So, we were hoping for increases, and, as you'll be aware—it's in the public domain—part of the licence that was given to Allwyn was that they made some commitments around increasing money to good causes over the 10 years of the licence. And what we're seeing for this financial year is a reduction in what the income is compared to our budget expectations. So, we assumed a flat line, so we took what we thought was a prudent approach within the accounts in the budget for this year and expected income to be broadly consistent with last year. And that, at the moment, up to the six months that we've got financial information for, has not happened. So, as part of our mid-year review process, we've had to reduce our expectations on lottery income for the remainder of the year. And the key assumption for that has been to assume the same level of underperformance that we saw in the first six months. So, that has meant an approximate 18 per cent decrease for this financial year that we're currently in, which, in pound terms, is a £3.4 million reduction for this year. That has gone through council and we've made the relevant adjustments to our budgets and utilised lottery reserve to help support that. It's really important that we don't make knee-jerk reactions, because there is still the opportunity for that to change. Lottery is very difficult to predict in terms of the impact of a roll series, which is when the jackpot for, let's say, Euromillions, doesn't go and it builds up. That can make over £300,000 a week difference to the income that we receive. So, it can change quite quickly. However, we feel that it was a prudent approach to take for the rest of this financial year. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786079 276 En 2026-11-09T15:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8100&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786134 277 En 2026-11-09T15:46:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8169&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick So you get no real notice then? You don't get any certainty at all, from one— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786135 278 En 2026-11-09T15:46:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8174&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna No. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786136 279 En 2026-11-09T15:46:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8175&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick From what period to the next? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786137 280 En 2026-11-09T15:46:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8177&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna We receive weekly reports in terms of the actuals in the sales—in the ticket sales—and we do receive forecasts, but they are forecasts. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786139 281 En 2026-11-09T15:46:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8189&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick And the fluctuation, you're saying, is an 18 per cent difference to what you were expecting.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786140 282 En 2026-11-09T15:46:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8192&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna From our budget to what actually— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786141 283 En 2026-11-09T15:46:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8194&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Is that different to what it's been in the past with the previous operator? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786143 284 En 2026-11-09T15:46:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8200&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna Yes. I think— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786144 285 En 2026-11-09T15:46:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8202&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick There hasn't been that sort of fluctuation in the past.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786146 286 En 2026-11-09T15:46:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8203&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna No, not in the history that I'm aware of.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786147 287 En 2026-11-09T15:46:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8205&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie In my time as Chair, this is the first time that we have had such a substantial fluctuation.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786148 288 En 2026-11-09T15:46:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8211&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick So, going back to something more specific, you mentioned the multi-year funding and your existing organisations that are in receipt of it already and opening up to new ones. Someone like, for example, NoFit State Circus, who you gave some bridging funding to, are they one of these organisations that are going to get funding from next March, or are they facing a cliff edge? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786149 289 En 2026-11-09T15:47:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8231&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie So, they're a grant-in-aid funded organisation, but also they have some lottery as part of their mix, and they're co-funded by the Arts Council for England as well. I think one of the important questions that raises is that, last year, we were able to have a reserve fund for organisations that were really suffering under the ongoing cuts and the cost-of-living pressure. So, when organisations hit a really difficult moment, we were able to have a fund—a resilience fund—that we could help them with over a kind of key moment, and we did that in the case of NoFit State Circus last year. In our last council meeting, 10 days ago, when we had to find around £3 million in in-year cuts, we had, in the original budget, had a resilience fund for this year, but we were no longer able to hold on to that. So, there are real impacts for organisations, but, at the moment, the predominance of the funding that goes to multi-year funded organisations is grant in aid.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786153 290 En 2026-11-09T15:48:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8307&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Okay.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786154 291 En 2026-11-09T15:48:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8307&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd The only thing I would add, if I may, Chair, is that the situation with the lottery, and the delivery of lottery at the moment, does create serious considerations for us in terms of what projects—strategic projects—we can sustain for the next year, because it will set the base for our next year's funding. And we'll also have to have a view on where we set our assumptions in terms of lottery.  This year has been strange, in one sense, but with the lottery environment, there's far more competition out there now in terms of lottery sales, and different lotteries that don't contribute to the good causes, as ours does. So, the one thing that we are now working on this side of Christmas, and post-Christmas, is: 'Okay, what does this mean for our funding next year?' We will know, of course, what funding we can expect from Welsh Government this side of Christmas, and that will play into our plans obviously. But that's the one big concern we have at the moment, in terms of, because the lottery is delivering so disappointingly against the forecasts, we really have to consider what projects we can actually keep going and sustain. And some of them need decisions sooner rather than later. You have to decide in one financial year about some things that are happening in the next financial year. So, that's a piece of work that we're looking at at this point in time.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786169 292 En 2026-11-09T15:49:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8395&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Diolch.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786171 293 Cy 2026-11-09T15:49:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8396&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much. We would like to move on to support for the sector. Niamh, did you want to ask something about that? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786168 294 Cy 2026-11-09T15:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8400&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786170 295 Cy 2026-11-09T15:50:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8405&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh I've got on question on the health of the sector, first of all, if that's okay. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786173 296 Cy 2026-11-09T15:50:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8408&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis The health of the sector, yes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786175 297 Cy 2026-11-09T15:50:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8410&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Yes. My question relates to the workforce specifically. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786190 298 En 2026-11-09T15:50:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8414&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh So, we know that we've seen a decrease in the arts workforce. When you were last in front of the committee, Dafydd, I think you mentioned that there was a piece of work that might be happening on workforce development to look at the workforce in the arts sector. Has that piece of work been done? And if it has, what conclusions has it come to? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786195 299 En 2026-11-09T15:50:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8436&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I think I was referencing there a piece of work that Welsh Government were commissioning directly on the skills, and that one was on the arts sector alone. That's the old Government. I've not received an update on that in the last few months. I think what we're seeing, in terms of the health of the sector—there's at least 20 per cent less working in our sector now than was before the pandemic. What's quite interesting is that, permanent roles, there's been a cut there of about 12 per cent, but the major hit has gone on casual and freelance staff—something in the region of 30 per cent to 31 per cent. The casual element is worrying, particularly worrying in the sense that that's the traditional route and entry point into the sector—that's where young people would gain their first step on the ladder. So, we are concerned on that. Then it's got a disproportionate effect on women, in the sense that 56 per cent, or somewhere in that region, of the workforce are female. So, we're seeing that reduction. That actually comes back to one of the original questions, or one of the earlier questions, in terms of why participation was low. We're seeing a reduction in the workforce as venues actually contract and actually do slightly less, and therefore get savings by not employing as many people. It's quite a vicious circle in that sense. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786205 300 En 2026-11-09T15:52:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8522&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Are you seeing artificial intelligence also having—? It might be more in the creative sector, but I was wondering, for you as well—. Especially when it comes to the literature world, for example, I've heard concerns that people are having with AI and that. I was wondering: when it comes to the workforce, if you're seeing some of that trend starting, or concerns from the arts workforce? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786218 301 En 2026-11-09T15:52:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8543&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie I'm aware of it more. I gave a keynote the other day at the Iris Festival, and I was really aware of a lot of the questions about AI in film, particularly background artists. So, there's a wonderful thing that you can create a castle now and it doesn't cost you as much money, but that means you're not employing craftspeople, you're not employing actors as supporting artists. It was really fascinating, because I think there was a real split in the audience of some, particularly younger, people being, 'No, I don't want AI to—. I don't want AI to tell my story—I want to tell my story.' And then there were also some other professionals going, 'Oh, but it's fantastic; I can now make a film on my phone that looks incredible with very little budget.' So, I think the jury's still out amongst the creative sector. I know in the literature sector, and particularly in the music sector, there's a lot of concern around this. And, in other sectors, people are embracing it. So, I think it's still quite a mixed picture. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786226 302 En 2026-11-09T15:53:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8610&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd What we are finding, though, is that people are using AI in terms of application, definitely. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786228 303 En 2026-11-09T15:53:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8614&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie Yes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786229 304 En 2026-11-09T15:53:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8615&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd And there have been conversations in the past about—. I was in a conference, not so long ago, and there was a different view across different countries in Europe, actually. Many saying, though, that it made it more equitable, that those larger organisations that can employ staff to write applications used to have an advantage, but AI actually makes a more level playing field; it also helps some neurodivergent artists or smaller organisations that are interested. The one thing that we do say, though, is that you can identify an AI application and, unless the voice of the artist is in there, or unless the actual genuine heart of the project is there, it can not be an advantage. But it is quite a fascinating subject, where, on the one hand, AI can make it more equitable, but, on the other hand, there are concerns about whether AI actually reflects the true nature of the project that comes in for funding. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786233 305 En 2026-11-09T15:54:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8678&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Diolch. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786242 306 En 2026-11-09T15:54:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8679&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis On workforce development, pa waith, what work is being done on workforce development? Is there anything being done at the moment? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786243 307 Cy 2026-11-09T15:54:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8691&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Do you speak with the Government about how to increase the work that's available, and so on? Do you speak with them about that? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786172 308 Cy 2026-11-09T15:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8700&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786174 309 Cy 2026-11-09T15:55:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8702&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Well, I very much hope that part of that will emanate from the new culture strategy, certainly. One of the things that we've been doing as part of the internal reorganisation that we've undertaken is that we've established a small but important department looking at business, because one of the weaknesses that we've seen in the arts sector is that companies need more support and help in terms of the business side of things, how to run businesses, governance, how governance is meant to work, what the responsibilities are for members of boards and officers. So, that's an important thing that we do in terms of developing skills in the sector. But we also work with Creative Wales, and we have Creu Cymru as well. You'll be familiar with that, which also has a role in terms of working with the sector. So, things are happening on different levels, but I think, in terms of developing skills beyond those that I referred to with regard to business and governance, we will await what emanates from the culture strategy. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786180 310 En 2026-11-09T15:56:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8777&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I don't know if you want to add something there, Lorna.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786181 311 En 2026-11-09T15:56:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8779&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna I would just say that we're also a part of a cross-sector working group or committee that's looking at fair pay, fair work. That's a really important part of the overall look at workforce development as well. That's a really important factor that can't be forgotten. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786182 312 En 2026-11-09T15:56:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8795&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis And what about the universal basic income model? Is that something that's still under consideration? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786183 313 En 2026-11-09T15:56:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8803&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie I think we look with delight and probably some envy to our colleagues in Ireland on both the delivery, given their financial support for the arts, and also the outcome of the research on that delivery that shows that actually it's had a net economic gain. So, I think it's something we are looking at and considering. It hasn't been at the forefront of the first few years when we came in and had to do an investment review, then look at how we accommodated a 10.5 per cent cut and where we are now with the cost-of-living pressures. But I think there is much to learn from our colleagues in Ireland about how that has been developed and delivered. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786186 314 Cy 2026-11-09T15:57:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8854&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd The research is hugely interesting in terms of what's happening there, and the argument from Ireland is that it pays dividends and that the economic impact—. There's an impact in terms of well-being—excuse the English there—that's a clear impact, but there's also significant economic impact, that the artists who receive this are receiving additional grants, they employ more people as a result of gaining those grants and so put more money into the local economy. The arguments are very interesting, and it's something that we as a council will have to consider if we include it as part of the new culture consultation. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786189 315 Cy 2026-11-09T15:58:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8899&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Good. It is, of course, now having an impact on the creativity in Wales, isn't it? So, that is so important. Okay, so are we going to move forward to support for the sector now? We are flying through our questions. We're enjoying this session; time is moving very quickly. On support for the sector, Nick, do you want to ask questions on that? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786197 316 En 2026-11-09T15:58:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8930&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12173 12173 Nick Carter https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12173 Carter, Nick Yes, a couple of things. I know that a lot of the organisations you speak to are on their knees, whether they're traditional music, dance—things are difficult—but, at the same time, theatre and opera, obviously, were the big losers in the last investment review. Obviously, speaking to people like the Welsh National Opera, who had their chorus reduced, the orchestra reduced, struggling with cuts from you and the English arts council, I just wonder if there's any prospect of improved funding for someone like the WNO, bearing in mind their national significance. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786201 317 En 2026-11-09T15:59:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=8974&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10271 Maggie Russell Russell, Maggie I think the first thing I'd like to say about WNO is to pay tribute to the two relatively recent general directors and the launch of their new season in, I think, September. There feels like there's a real energy and appetite to create a new kind of European opera company of the highest quality, building on that 80 years of WNO excellence. I would love to have more funding that we could share amongst all our multi-year-funded organisations, but, as I have said on several occasions, when I looked at this role, I didn't see 'Rumpelstiltskin' in the job description and I have yet to learn how to take straw and spin it into gold, and I really wish I could. Because what I see—and I have the huge privilege of attending many things right across Wales—is no lack of creativity, ambition, skill, passion and work of the highest quality going on. And everyone, whether they are WNO—who, on paper, get a huge amount of money, but also carry a huge amount of wages and fixed costs—or right through to a smaller organisation like Grand Ambition in Swansea, who are just starting out, as they've been going for five years—. How do we support this sector that is so crucial to the life of Wales? For me, the challenge is how do we stabilise and support the multi-year funded organisations we have and how do we do that alongside the way of responding to initiatives that are cold spots or new talents and new things that we don't even know, as well as doing our work in schools and our arts and health work. And I think we're really hitting a tension moment, as evidenced by the response to the lottery question. So, I really hope we will be in a position to further support those organisations. We are doing some work at an arts council level on developing some new models for philanthropy, which, hopefully, we can bring forward to a future committee, but I'm not naive and I want us to celebrate our crown jewels and celebrate our community work and do everything in between, really. I don't know if that answers your question. But I think it's a real tension for us. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786159 318 En 2026-11-09T16:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9000&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786188 319 En 2026-11-09T16:02:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9144&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna I'd just like to add, if I may, that that was a key part of the information that we provided through to the Minister as to what the additional ask would be from us. So, for example, the multi-year-funded organisations, when that investment review happened in 2023, the total budget ask for those organisations was just over £40 million and we were able to deliver £28 million. So, there was a significant change there in terms of what we were able to deliver. And if that had kept pace with inflation, then there would be a requirement of around about an additional £14.5 million to get back to that original ask. So, again, that's some of the information that we've provided, because we recognise the challenge. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786193 320 En 2026-11-09T16:03:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9187&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis You have a very, very difficult task, don't you? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786203 321 Cy 2026-11-09T16:03:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9190&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I think it's worth reminding ourselves—certainly this committee—that the arts and culture have been underfunded for decades. In 2010, we got £31 million from the Welsh Government and we're on £33 million now, in 2026. And if someone had just done an assessment in terms of cost of living and so on since 2010, then, based on that, we should be on something like £55 million. So, we're approaching not the conclusion, but there are a lot of things happening at the same time and it all relates to the fact that there has been underinvestment for decades, to be honest. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786210 322 Cy 2026-11-09T16:03:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9232&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Yes. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786211 323 En 2026-11-09T16:03:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9233&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna And I would add to that, as I think it's a really important point, that this idea of sort of real-term cuts isn't a new thing, unfortunately, as Dafydd's just indicated, and I think that that means that the sector is quite resilient in the fact that it's used to navigating this underfunding. And what we've seen is that there's a sector there that's really reliant on the passion and the dedication of its workforce and of the freelancers that support it, but that isn't a sustainable model. Wales absolutely punches above its weight in terms of what it delivers from a cultural perspective, but it just can't continue to do so, in our opinion, without investment in that core infrastructure and funding. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786212 324 En 2026-11-09T16:04:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9278&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Yes. I can't disagree with you on any of that. I do feel that this is the problem that we're in, isn't it, the world we're in today? Everybody is operating in a very difficult environment now and we have to make the best of what we have and do the best we can, because money is short. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786323 325 En 2026-11-09T16:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9300&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786327 326 Cy 2026-11-09T16:05:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9305&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Right. Who have I not called upon to speak yet? We wanted to look at support for the sector. Has that been covered? Yes, it has. Okay. Mike—I haven't turned to Mike yet. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786329 327 En 2026-11-09T16:05:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9322&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis So, Mike, would you like to make a contribution, please? 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786330 328 En 2026-11-09T16:05:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9330&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike I think I'm down for arts and health. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786331 329 En 2026-11-09T16:05:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9333&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis You are. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786332 330 En 2026-11-09T16:05:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9333&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 332 332 Mike Hedges https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=332 Hedges, Mike I want to talk about dementia, and I know how important Musical Memories are for people with dementia. There are people who haven't spoken for months or years who, when they go to a Musical Memories event, or when Musical Memories come to the home they're in, they start singing along to songs they know. I was a bit disappointed that Abba were in the Musical Memories, but perhaps I need to realise I am getting older myself. But I think they do a tremendous job. What support are you, either directly or via health boards, doing, to bring in Musical Memories, which have a huge effect on people who have got dementia? There's a major beneficial effect, and people who look down, out and disinterested come out happy, smiling. It really is important. So, I'm just asking what support you give. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786334 331 En 2026-11-09T16:06:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9398&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Well, support for arts and health, I mean, this is a field—and I inherited this; I'm not taking the praise for this—where Wales is leading not only on a European level, but on a world level. There was an article in The Lancet—was it two years ago—that compared what is happening in Wales in terms of arts and health as one of the most significant developments on a world level. We invest £1.6 million in arts and health. It's all lottery funding. We do not get any financial support from the Government to do this work, other than some of the grant in aid would support some roles, but all the project work comes from our lottery. We actually published—and I'm sure, as members of the committee, you will have copies; if not, we can get you the copies—a report about six months ago on the economic benefits of arts and health that also included the well-being benefits. This is a field where we want to see marked improvements in terms of funding from the Government, with the next budget. The savings that the use of the arts and arts practitioners can make for the national health is incredible. We have a dance and health and balance group, for example, across Wales—the falls prevention agenda. Now, if you're over 65, you have 35 per cent more of a chance of falling. If you're over 80, it's 50 per cent, but dance for health programmes reduces a risk of falling by up to 60 per cent, because it improves your core strength, it improves your balance, et cetera, et cetera. Now, if we were to reach 5 per cent of over-65s, we'd save £5 million annually to the NHS. There is an exercise referral scheme, but we would argue we need one also for the arts. I think the other place where the arts prove significant is in mental health. Forty per cent of the visits to GPs across Wales are for mental health-related issues. Now, if 5 per cent of those were avoided by early referral to arts and arts practitioners, we would save £17 million a year to the NHS. So, we have to change the way we think about health. Currently, we think more about treatment, not enough about keeping people healthier, so that they don't actually block up the systems in terms of hospitalisation. Incidentally, back to the arts and health, and the dance one, one fall costs the NHS in the region of £40,000 to £45,000 per visit. But, actually, running a dance class for a year would cost in the region of £20,000 to £30,000. So, it's an actual no-brainer in terms of the fiscal argument. The other thing is that we do have a partnership with the Baring Foundation as well, and we've got a project called Arts and Minds. Again, that's to do with the mental health issues in Wales. So, another stat—and I'll stop in a second on the stats—but of the young people on NHS mental health pathways, if we were to reach just 5 per cent of them, it would, again, generate £9.5 million of savings to the NHS. So, I think we've got to start thinking about health in a different way and consider how the arts sector can contribute significantly, not just in terms of well-being, but also in terms of the economic impact of it, in terms of savings for other services. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786283 332 En 2026-11-09T16:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9600&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786298 333 En 2026-11-09T16:10:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9623&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 11892 Lorna Virgo Virgo, Lorna I would say that we absolutely recognise the benefits that music and arts can have, specifically around dementia. That, again, was one of the key asks that we put in the information to the Minister, around an additional request of £2.9 million to fund four strategic programmes within arts and health, one of those being arts and dementia. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786301 334 En 2026-11-09T16:10:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9644&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Well, I couldn't agree more with you on that, to be honest with you. I've seen it for myself, in my work and in my family. I have to say as well, there's a lot of—. All of these elements have to happen and work together. In terms of community arts, it's so important to have that facility where people can get together, and isolation doesn't become such a problem, and health improves, well-being improves. But also, you also need to really, really think about the well-being and health of the people who are the practitioners, who actually provide those opportunities, and the artists that are in our communities. That's something that—. Sometimes, I think there's too much emphasis—. Even though my own experience was running a venue, I think, sometimes, there's too much emphasis on venue funding rather than artist funding, and finding a way of both working together can really enhance things. Also, I think that high-level arts—. I went to a performance recently in memory of Aberfan, and it was incredible. Sitting there watching children from my community performing with professional musicians and singers was an absolute delight. To give those children that opportunity, to give people those opportunities—. So, there are health benefits from the higher levels. We have to have those higher levels of arts, for people to aspire to and to give people that, not just inspiration, but uchelgais—ambition. Right then, we need to—. We are coming very close to the end of the session. Is there anything that anybody now wants to ask before we close? I was looking over there as I was saying it— 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786306 335 En 2026-11-09T16:13:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9780&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh She's looking at me. [Laughter.] 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786307 336 En 2026-11-09T16:13:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9781&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis —because I knew that Niamh would say that. Niamh. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786309 337 En 2026-11-09T16:13:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9784&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh It's very, very quick. I just wanted to touch on the one thing, which was the review that was done on traditional music. I was wondering what your response was to that. I think that quote by Angharad Wynne was really quite telling of the situation of the sector. Are you doing work outside of the funding as well, because there was a lot of recommendations outside of just needing more money? Diolch. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786317 338 En 2026-11-09T16:13:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9807&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Well, there are a couple of things—. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786318 339 Cy 2026-11-09T16:13:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9808&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd I'll answer in Welsh. There is more than one thing that we've done in the area of traditional arts. We have more than doubled the amount of funding that we provide to that area; people could argue that we didn't fund it sufficiently in the past. We use Tŷ Cerdd in particular. We jointly fund a role within Tŷ Cerdd, a development officer role, in particular for traditional music. We also have a fund within Tŷ Cerdd of £200,000 a year for community projects that develop the traditional music work on the ground, at grass-roots level. One thing that came out very strongly in that particular review was the need in this area for us to support more community-level work, with professional musicians, but also with non-professionals or with people who want to develop their skills. That happens through Tŷ Cerdd. So, there's that Tŷ Cerdd post and there's also the fund of £200,000. Already, I think there are 17 projects that have been funded—that number might be higher now. There is a strong geographical balance there, including the west, I'm pleased to be able to tell you. So, there is a strong geographical balance there, I think. We also—. There is the CoDI scheme in Tŷ Cerdd, which is a specific scheme to develop musicians and to pair them together. So, that's something that's going on as well.  We've also, of course, changed the way that we operate, and there was that emphasis on genre expertise. We also, of course, have a head of music and a team looking specifically at this now, and this is one of the areas that's important for that area.   16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786055 340 Cy 2026-11-09T16:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9900&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786057 341 Cy 2026-11-09T16:15:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9926&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Right. May I ask about the national contemporary art gallery? Where are we with that CELF project and funding for the project in future?   16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786058 342 Cy 2026-11-09T16:15:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=9940&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Well, I can start us off with that response, if you'd like. It's quite interesting. I was looking the other day at performance in terms of the audience of the national contemporary art gallery, the pattern that has been shared around Wales, and it appears that the numbers of those who visit have increased significantly. We see the figures in somewhere like Ruthin, for example—I think it's something like a 68 per cent increase there in the numbers visiting. Now, whether that relates to the fact that there is a national art gallery there, as well as everything else that they're doing—that's interesting. I was looking at Plas Glyn y Weddw on the Llŷn peninsula as well. Their figures have increased by something like 38 per cent. So, it appears as if there is a desire, certainly, from people to have those opportunities in their local area to go and see this work from the national collection. We provide a certain amount of money on an annual basis to support posts, but also work in relation to young people and developing new audiences. It's not a very high figure in the big scheme of things, but that is also something where we have to think: will we be able to continue to afford that if we have any additional major cuts? I do think there is a further public discussion to be had on whether we need to expand that. Certainly, we referred to the Valleys earlier in this session today. There is no national art gallery in the Valleys. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786059 343 Cy 2026-11-09T16:17:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10037&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Well, we need one. [Laughter.] Sorry.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786060 344 Cy 2026-11-09T16:17:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10039&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd There has also been a discussion on whether there is a need for what they call an anchor site, as they call it in English. That is a question to consider. You could say, well, if you started today from scratch, perhaps you would decide on that in the first instance before deciding on where the dispersed galleries are around Wales. But we are where we are, and the cost, I think, is the biggest factor, and that's something that the Government needs to consider. One of the things, as partners, the museum, us and the national library have noted more than once, to this committee as it happens, is that there is no sustainable model for the pattern of the national contemporary art gallery without the Government continuing to put funding into the project. There are some three independent reports that have looked at the commercial implications, and every one of those has come to the conclusion, 'Do you know what? You're going to have to put a certain amount of additional funding into this every year.' So, that's where we are at the moment. By now, of course, it is run primarily by Amgueddfa Cymru. That is the model to distribute it. There are also responsibilities for us as a council to receive a report once, if not twice a year, and we have a presence on the advisory board as well. But that's where we are at the moment. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786111 345 En 2026-11-09T16:18:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10122&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Have I left anything out there?  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786112 346 Cy 2026-11-09T16:18:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10128&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis Thank you very much for that. From my experience too—sorry for bringing my own experience in all the time, but there we go—I do feel that, for me, the difference between the—I  can never say it—creative industries and the arts sector that stands out is that there is a need for more public investment in the arts sector, because art or culture doesn't make money, but the process and the livelihoods of those working in the sector surrounding the arts are so very important in terms of who we are in Wales. We do need to ensure that that is safeguarded for the future. That's why keeping both separate, or at least ensuring that there is investment in the arts, is important—to me, anyway. I just wanted to note that. Right, anything else? No. Okay. So, we will bring the session to a close. Thank you very much. There is something that I need to read out here. There will be a transcript. Thank you very much to you for your evidence. It has been really wonderful to meet you today. Thank you for your work. A transcript of the meeting will be sent to you to check that it is an accurate representation of what you have said. Okay? And we will follow up with a letter as well after this session. So, thank you very much to the three of you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786114 347 Cy 2026-11-09T16:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10200&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786116 348 En 2026-11-09T16:20:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10239&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786117 349 En 2026-11-09T16:20:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10238&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786115 350 Cy 2026-11-09T16:20:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10238&l=en 261109-4 5. Annual scrutiny of the Arts Council of Wales C 10027 Dafydd Rhys Rhys, Dafydd Thank you. 16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786118 351 Cy 2026-11-09T16:20:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16383?startPos=10247&l=en 261109-5 6. Papers to note C 12149 12149 Lis McLean https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12149 McLean, Lis We move on now to item 6, papers to note. Do Members have any comments on any of the papers to note? No. Right, okay.  As we agreed earlier, we will now proceed in private for the remainder of the meeting. We'll wait to hear that we're in private. Thank you. Are you content to note the papers? Yes, I see that Members are content. Thank you very much.  16383 7 2026-11-09T13:30:00 786120 352 Cy 261109-5 6. Papers to note I The public part of the meeting ended at 16:21.