16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786836 0 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=-34286&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=-34286&l=en 261111-0 C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786067 1 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=-34286&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=-34286&l=en 261111-0 C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786064 2 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=-34286&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=-34286&l=en 261111-0 C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786063 3 Cy 261111-0 I Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod.  The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786837 4 Cy 261111-0 I Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo. Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:31. The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The meeting began at 09:31. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786066 5 Cy 2026-11-11T09:31:30 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4&l=en 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Bore da. Good morning. Croeso i'r Pwyllgor Newid Hinsawdd, yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Materion Gwledig. Good morning. Welcome to the Climate Change, Environment, Sustainability and Rural Affairs Committee. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786068 6 En 2026-11-11T09:31:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=11&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=11&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I'd like to note that the public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. I'd like to note that the meeting is bilingual and simultaneous interpretation is available from Cymraeg to Saesneg. I'd now like to ask Members if there are any declarations of interest. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786069 7 En 2026-11-11T09:31:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=31&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=31&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Yes, Chair. I'm associated with the British Veterinary Association. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786070 8 En 2026-11-11T09:32:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=34&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=34&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Thank you. I declare myself as a member of the National Farmers Union Cymru. Any other Members?  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786071 9 En 2026-11-11T09:32:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=40&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=40&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 12171 12171 David Mills AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 Mills, David I'm a member of NFU as well. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786072 10 En 2026-11-11T09:32:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=41&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=41&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James David Mills is a member of the National Farmers Union. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786073 11 En 2026-11-11T09:32:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=43&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=43&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. And I'm a member of NFU. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786074 12 En 2026-11-11T09:32:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=45&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=45&l=cy 261111-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James And Andrew R.T. Davies is a member of the National Farmers Union. Thank you. Lovely. I'd just like to note that today is Remembrance Day: an occasion for all of us in this committee and across Wales and wider to remember those people whose lives were lost in conflict, and to recognise the service that they gave to our country. And to our armed forces currently serving as well, we wish them all the safety and our best wishes. I'd just like to say that at 11 o'clock we'll be holding a two-minute silence. That will be in our second session, but I know that Members of the Senedd Commission who are also members of this committee will be leaving us for a short time, while they go and mark the official silence over at the other side of the Senedd.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786076 13 En 2026-11-11T09:32:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=87&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=87&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James We'll now move on to agenda item 2, which is our wildfire resilience in Wales evidence session with farming representatives. If you'd just to like briefly introduce yourselves and who you represent, that would be great, and then we can go into our question session. I'll start with Ian. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786077 14 En 2026-11-11T09:33:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=104&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=104&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian Diolch, Gadeirydd. I'm Ian Rickman. I'm the llywydd of Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru, the president of the Farmers Union of Wales, and a Carmarthenshire beef and sheep farmer. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786078 15 En 2026-11-11T09:33:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=114&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=114&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Bore da. Hywel Morgan, chair of Nature Friendly Farming Network Cymru, and, for the record, I'm a last-minute stand-in for Rhys Evans who, unfortunately, had a traffic accident and isn't available to attend. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786080 16 En 2026-11-11T09:33:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=130&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=130&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I'm sure you'll be a fantastic substitute, Hywel. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786081 17 Cy 2026-11-11T09:33:39 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=133&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=133&l=en 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Bore da. Good morning. Paul Williams, dirprwy lywydd NFU Cymru.  Bore da. Good morning. Paul Williams, NFU Cymru deputy president. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786082 18 En 2026-11-11T09:33:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=137&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=137&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul NFU Cymru deputy president. I farm up in parc cenedlaethol Eryri, up in north Wales. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786083 19 En 2026-11-11T09:33:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=143&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=143&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much, and welcome to our meeting. We've got a number of questions on wildfires and how agriculture can play its part and what the farming representatives would like to say on it. We've got some questions now on rewetting, grazing, controlled burning and rewilding, and a Member who'd like to ask questions on that is David Mills. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786084 20 En 2026-11-11T09:34:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=162&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=162&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12171 12171 David Mills AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 Mills, David Yes, I'm very interested in your views, really, on how effective some of these have been and how you feel the different methods of land management have affected wildfires—grazing, burning, et cetera. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786085 21 En 2026-11-11T09:34:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=185&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=185&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel As the Nature Friendly Farming Network, as the name suggests, we think that nature has a big part to play, and nature-based solutions. We are currently operating within agriculture policy and rules that might be out of date. We've got reduced stock numbers in agri-environment schemes, et cetera. We've got a lot less active grazing on common land. A lot of these wildfires are on common land. Stock numbers have reduced to the point that sheep need assistance, and I think more cattle on the uplands, especially, is what's needed. And let's not forget ponies as well: ponies have a huge benefit for upland grazing. I think we need to look at, even within the sustainable farming scheme, rights holders on common land and that they will still get paid for their rights. I think that needs to be looked at: how can we manage these commons? As an active grazier, I feel like the mountain is getting wilder and wilder every year. I personally have introduced cattle there, and the benefit of those cattle is immense: you can see the work they're doing in tackling the Molinia and the bracken, et cetera. With the virtual fencing technology, I can target areas that need grazing and reduce the fire load. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786241 22 En 2026-11-11T09:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=214&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=214&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786320 23 En 2026-11-11T09:36:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=298&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=298&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Ian. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786321 24 En 2026-11-11T09:36:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=299&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=299&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian Yes, thank you. I guess it's the old cliche, it's about using all the tools in the toolbox, isn't it? So, rewetting, yes, rewetting peatland, that has a part to play, obviously, but that's a long-term solution that's going to take years to have effect. The question is: what are we going to do about it in the short term? Everything helps. Constructing firebreaks that help control burning on upland areas, where it's appropriate and well planned, has a part to play in maintaining those firebreaks and creating firebreaks. Grazing and the livestock numbers issue is a big one. Some of the work the FUW has done is that we've looked at the whole of Welsh grassland, or grazing areas available in Wales, since 1998. There were 1.21 average livestock units per hectare in 1998 on grazing land. We're down to 0.9 now today. So, it's about that appropriate level of grazing. That has a huge part to play in the reduction of fire load and maintaining these upland habitats, particularly in the upland areas. It's about a flexible approach, and it depends on every location. Every location and every farm in Wales is different. Every location in Wales is different and has different challenges. It depends on the location as well. There needs to be flexibility in there as well, I would argue, going forward. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786326 25 En 2026-11-11T09:37:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=387&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=387&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely, diolch. Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786328 26 En 2026-11-11T09:37:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=389&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=389&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Bore da. I wouldn't disagree with anything that's already been said. It's not just about commons of course. There are swathes of private land on the uplands and the hills that aren't necessarily commons, but the policies that dictate the management of those uplands and hills, by now, have really tipped over the wrong side of the scales. We in NFU Cymru want to see a thriving Welsh agricultural industry here in Wales. Our food and drink sector is the success story that we have here in Wales, and you cannot have that unless you have the ingredients to push that forward. We are actively wanting our agricultural industry to grow, and for that we need more livestock. Certainly, we need more livestock in the uplands. Unfortunately, we've had policies in the past that restricted significantly the ability to graze the uplands. These policies are probably 20 to 30 years old by now, and things have dramatically changed in that time. The pendulum has swung too much to the one side, where we now don't have enough active grazing on our uplands. We absolutely need to change that. We need Government to change policy and direction in order for us to be actively managing these uplands. I listened intently to the session that you had last week with the fire service. We're very much about mitigation. We don't really want to see our fire brigades, our fire servicemen, having to go up there and tackle these fires. We would much rather we mitigate the need for that. I think, as has already been mentioned, there's got to be a suite of things, but I think, first and foremost, we need to be able, as graziers, to actively manage these grazing areas. Some areas will need more grazing than others, but it's all about looking at individual circumstances, because a common will be different from one side of a valley to the other, as with uplands. So, it's got to be a suite of different things, but first and foremost, we need to be able to manage these uplands by grazing and by grazing actively. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786250 27 En 2026-11-11T09:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=514&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=514&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786252 28 En 2026-11-11T09:40:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=527&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=527&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Diolch. Andrew. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786253 29 En 2026-11-11T09:40:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=528&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=528&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Just on managing the commons, because obviously, most of the wildfires this summer were on common land. It's a hugely complex area in legislation, and obviously graziers' rights. John has raised the point in the Gower that the common that is near his property, most of the graziers' rights sit with people who've bought properties in the area, and wouldn't have the ability to graze the land even if they wanted to. Have you got any recommendations or suggestions how the committee could put in its report how we might be able to suggest to the Government to tackle the complexities around the law in common land, and in particular the grazing rights that sit with dormant livestock keepers now? We've only got 45 minutes. [Laughter.] 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786254 30 En 2026-11-11T09:41:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=576&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=576&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian And as you know, Andrew, and the committee knows, common lands are an extremely complex area. It's always a challenge to do anything about issues related to common land. But I think there's an opportunity here, I would suggest, definitely—appreciating it's a different territory—in the collaborative area level of the SFS for graziers and active graziers to work together in groups on common land. I think that's where the opportunity is, because once you get into who has active rights—and Hywel will be well aware of this—in CL18 on Mynydd Du, there are, I think, 500 to 600 registered graziers on one CL block, and that's a historic thing. So, the commons register, I would argue—and that's been a job of work for years—needs updating, as you say, as a lot of people who now own rights don't actually own much land at all, and it's a historic thing, but the commons register needs updating. Yes, I think the collaborative area of the SFS is where there's something that could be done. Allow those active graziers on the commons to form small groups in areas where they can manage the grazing, manage the land management on certain areas of the commons, and they can work together. I think that's where the opportunity is. Thank you. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786259 31 En 2026-11-11T09:42:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=652&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=652&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Okay, thank you. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786260 32 En 2026-11-11T09:42:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=653&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=653&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel In 2019, I think we were promised by the then rural affairs Minister that we'd digitalise the register of commons registration; it's yet to happen. Powys are probably one of the only ones that actually are doing it. Carmarthen is looking at it, but it hasn't been adopted. I understand the Welsh Government are looking at it and trying to pilot it. Once we get it digitalised, it will be easier to manage and work out, because we're looking at a document that was designed and created in 1965. It's just an old archaic book sort of thing, and it's scribbled off and lines through it. We need that digitalised. But we've had the Glastir Commons since 2012, I think it was. There were grazing diaries on each common; that needs looking at. There's a question every time we fill in that application form for the payment, now it's for Habitat Wales. There's a question: 'Is this person a member, yes or no? Do they actually graze? Are they an active grazier or non-active grazier?' There are means to check, and whether it's a commons council, we need somebody that oversees everything. The Epynt range—as you well know, James—they've got a good system. A sergeant major would say, 'Are you actively grazing it, yes or no? If you're not, you don't get paid.' Why are we paying non-active graziers a payment just because they've got historical rights? We're not taking their rights away; they are set in stone. We've got rights to graze; we haven't got rights to money on commons, we've got rights to graze. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786290 33 En 2026-11-11T09:44:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=766&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=766&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Okay, thank you. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786293 34 En 2026-11-11T09:44:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=767&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=767&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul It seems like a good idea to get a sergeant major in charge of things possibly, but I don't know. [Laughter.] You're absolutely right: common land law is very archaic. I think, as we are today, the problem we have in trying to find solutions in commons where they are undergrazed is that, if you are a common holder or rights holder, in effect you can veto the rest who are actively grazing that common. So, if a group of commoners want to come together to try and go for a pot of money or a scheme, it's quite possible that a person who has bought a property that came with common rights could actually veto the good work that the active commoners are trying to do. So, that really cannot carry on. I think that farming on a common, in its very nature, is difficult. It needs a lot of time, it needs a lot of effort. It isn't easy. They're huge pieces of land. They don't just sit there and behave—you have to actively manage these commons. So, if we're thinking, going forward, that there are ways and solutions through which we can actively help and encourage management of these commons, there has to be a way to make sure that, when active commoners are actually grazing those uplands, the people who just own the rights but do nothing with them can't veto the good work that can be done and that should be done. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786187 35 En 2026-11-11T09:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=814&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=814&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786191 36 En 2026-11-11T09:45:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=861&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=861&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786192 37 En 2026-11-11T09:45:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=862&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=862&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul Yes. So, we've had other witnesses in over the last few weeks, and one or two of them have talked about not forestry, but growing trees around grazing areas like commons, but also privately owned grazing areas, and that in some way helps to stop fires from progressing in quite the same way. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786194 38 En 2026-11-11T09:46:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=885&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=885&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul I had the pleasure of going up to the Gwastedyn site in the summer, which is just above Rhaeadr—and that is privately owned land actually, it's not common—and there was devastation up there. Now, I was there three weeks after the fire brigade had left, with the graziers up there and the landlords, and fires were still breaking out around us. And what they were telling me is that part of the biggest problem that they had during that fire was that there was a huge block of woodland trees owned by NRW, which hadn't been actively managed for years, and they could do nothing with it other than let it burn and cause even more devastation. So, I'm sure there are parts of land where maybe trees could be part of the solution, but planting trees for the sake of planting them—unless they're actively managed and there are firebreaks and there is ownership and there are ways of contacting the owner of those trees in the event of a fire—will actually make things worse. So, I have no doubt that planting trees will be part of a solution in some parts of the country, but, unless those lands are actively managed, unless there's ownership when it comes to a disaster like this, it's actually making the problem worse. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786199 39 En 2026-11-11T09:47:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=963&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=963&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul Yes, I think they were talking about actively managing them, and also they weren't talking about blocks; they were talking about having them within grazing areas. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786200 40 En 2026-11-11T09:47:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=972&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=972&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Yes, I think it comes down to the type of tree as well. For the recent fires on Rhandirmwyn, which is not far from Llandovery, near Llyn Brianne, there was an issue with woodlands there, with poorly managed woodlands—trees that hadn't been dealt with just lying around creating fuel load. Nobody knew who actually owned the woodlands. Research was done afterwards, and there were eight different landowners, nobody local, all over the UK. The fire brigade—and this isn't a criticism of the fire brigade; this is just a point of reference—were totally out of their depth. And if you think about it, the average fire engine carries 2,000L of water; a slurry tanker carries 20,000L to 25,000L of water, with a rain gun that could actually manage it. I spoke to some of those contractors and farmers who went up there, and they felt unvalued—they weren't valued, but, without them, those fires probably would have done a lot more damage. If you imagine a fire engine with six staff and 2,000L of water and one hose, compared with a slurry tanker with 20,000L to 25,000L of water, with a rain gun that can target, and that tractor and slurry tanker could get to that—. So, part of the solution, or even the prevention, is that we have a network of farmers and contractors who have the equipment that can deal with fire. A lot of these fire brigades, the personnel are fantastic—we get part-time guys, they're fantastic—but have they got the training to tackle wildfire at big scale?  If it wasn't for the 10 contractors who actually went up and put those fires out, God knows where that fire would have ended. But, as you said, woodlands were the problem there. When it came to the grassy fields, the fire was extinguished, wasn't it, because there were no fuel loads. So, we have to be careful what sort of trees: the Sitkas and the conifer trees, they went on fire; the oak trees, they still survived. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786457 41 En 2026-11-11T09:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1114&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1114&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786458 42 En 2026-11-11T09:50:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1120&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1120&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul So, I guess there's a lesson there, isn't there? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786459 43 En 2026-11-11T09:50:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1122&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1122&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Yes. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786461 44 En 2026-11-11T09:50:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1124&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1124&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Our native broadleaveds don't do so badly, do they? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786463 45 En 2026-11-11T09:50:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1126&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1126&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian Yes. Thank you. I agree with Paul. And, as we mentioned earlier, doing anything on common land is extremely complex. If you plant trees on common land, inevitably you're displacing someone's livestock—hopefully, because we're trying to encourage more livestock on the upland areas. So, you're displacing someone's livestock on the hefted area to another part, and then you have a knock-on effect. So, it's an extremely complex area. I'm not sure how feasible it is. It's probably feasible in small areas, but my concern would be that you'd be potentially increasing the fire load. What we want to achieve here now is to decrease the fire load. That would be my concern on it. But, yes, I think it has an application. I would suggest it would have more of an application in slowing water flow and encouraging rewetting in areas. But, again, every common, every upland area is different, so it would have to be horses for courses, as it were, and a flexible approach. But I think it's more challenging, I would suggest, than just saying 'We'll plant some trees on common land and it'll be fine.' 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786467 46 En 2026-11-11T09:51:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1194&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1194&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul Yes, I don't think they were suggesting that. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786470 47 En 2026-11-11T09:51:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1197&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1197&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul We have to be extremely careful here. It's not about trees or not having trees. We have to be extremely careful if we are to incentivise the planting of trees in the uplands. What we have seen in areas of Wales, and we continue to see, are large multinational companies buying up family farms and planting the trees because there is a financial incentive to do that. Now, that will add nothing to the local area. We are offloading our own land and our own credentials to a multinational company that is far, far away. So, even if we are to go down this avenue—. Yes, it will probably work in some parts of the country. It would have to be very targeted. I doubt whether you could do it on common land because there would be a whole heap of legislative problems. On uplands, possibly, but we have to be extremely careful on how we target this, because, as I say, the last thing we want, and this is what we've seen happening in parts of rural Wales already, are large companies from outside Wales, international companies, that are actually greenwashing themselves to the detriment of our communities, our language, and Wales as a whole. So, we have to be very careful how we target this. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786478 48 En 2026-11-11T09:52:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1272&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1272&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I don't want to curtail discussion, but I know there are questions on funding later, which I think—. I know, Paul, you raised before about finance initiatives in the previous session. So, I think we might come back to this again, if that's okay, because I want to touch on the next bit, which I know Vikki was going to do, about controlled burning, because I know that's something that is quite topical at the minute. So, Vikki. would you like to lead us off on this specific area, please? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786479 49 En 2026-11-11T09:52:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1293&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1293&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 5107 5107 Vikki Howells AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107 Howells, Vikki Yes. Diolch, Gadeirydd. All the evidence we've taken so far shows that there is a substantial role for controlled burning. And I just wanted to ask about, particularly, the heather and grass burning code. So, we can see that hasn't been updated since 2008, and the Welsh Government has committed to doing work on strengthening that. So, I'm really interested to gauge your views on how you would like to see that code changed and strengthened and how that might help. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786483 50 En 2026-11-11T09:53:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1323&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1323&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Yes. So, we used to do burning on the common land within our Glastir advance contract. We used to do x amount, and there was just controlled burn. And we were quite fortunate. The national park owns our common—I don't think they own much common land throughout Wales. But we had the assistance and the knowledge and the equipment from them, so it really helped. But I do think the livestock, managing livestock and using cattle, especially cattle with virtual fencing, is way better than controlled burning. Controlled burning is a tool in the box. We need all these tools in the box, but it's what's appropriate. You won't get cattle on every part of every common. Or even woodland—even cattle in woodlands can help with putting biodiversity back in there. And if you've got biodiversity, you've got a variety of grasses et cetera. And I think the worst thing for a wildfire is a monoculture of something. We need diversity. Raising organic matter in soils keeps the soil moisture as well. So, yes, controlled burning is a tool we need in the box, and it probably needs updating. I remember, I think it was in the FAW pavilion at the Royal Welsh Show, nearly five, six years ago, a Spanish firefighter gave us a talk and said that Wales and the UK will be like California and those hotter parts of Europe in 10 years. It's happened in five, six years. So, we need to learn the lessons. It's not a talking shop. We need to actually get things done. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786196 51 En 2026-11-11T09:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1414&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1414&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786247 52 En 2026-11-11T09:59:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1654&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1654&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786221 53 En 2026-11-11T09:55:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1438&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1438&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Who else wants to come in? Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786223 54 En 2026-11-11T09:55:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1441&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1441&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Yes, I would tend to say that, yes, controlled burning is very important, because there will be parts of—. And it's not just—. We have to get away from—. It's not just commons, it's not just common land, it's uplands as well. For parts of these lands where controlled burning will be required, certainly we need to relook at that, and it is part of the toolkit. But another half of me says that, if we have to control burn, we are not managing that piece of land that we have to do a controlled burn on. So, I would much rather that we use the tools available to not to have to control burn, but it is part of the solution. We have to, as well, look at what they call 'cold burns'. At the moment, we can only burn at certain times of the year, and, usually, that comes just before you turn out the stock. Now, of course, if you do a controlled burn in the spring, before you turn out the stock, you, basically, burn the forage that you would have for those livestock to go up there. If you look at the weather we have at the moment, a controlled burn at this time of the year would actually work. There's no stock up on the commons, for sure, and quite a few of the uplands stock have come down. So, you cannot just burn at a single point in time. We have to have that flexibility. But, as I say, half of me says, 'Well, if we have to control burn, we're actually not doing the job right'. I would rather use the other tools that we have in actively grazing to mitigate the fact that we have to burn at all. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786231 55 En 2026-11-11T09:57:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1537&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1537&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian Yes, absolutely, I agree with Paul there. But I think controlled burning does have a place in creating—. And perhaps we should be using more controlled burning to create fire breaks on large upland areas, whether they be privately owned or common land. So, I think—. But it needs an appropriate level of training, working together with the landowner—if it's common land, you need to work with the landowner, if it's private land, you work with the landowner—and the fire service. So, I think, yes, you're quite right, possibly the code does need looking at with a view to wildfires. That code was developed with a view to biodiversity and helping to create a mosaic of habitats in the uplands. It was one of the tools in the toolbox. So, I think we're in a different world now. We've seen that in the last summer. And all the suggestions are, the reports are, that we're going to see the same situation with the climate occurring more frequently over the summers. So, I think it does need reviewing, but I think it has a place. But we need to look at it through a wildfire lens now as well as all the other aspects of biodiversity, I would argue. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786238 56 En 2026-11-11T09:58:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1601&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1601&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Vikki.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786240 57 En 2026-11-11T09:58:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1602&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1602&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 5107 5107 Vikki Howells AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107 Howells, Vikki Just to probe a little deeper, looking at that code, it was reviewed in 2008. Prior to that, it hadn't been reviewed since the mid-1990s. So, appreciating everything you say and the key role of grazing and so on, this is a code that I would say we do need. Do you think that the Welsh Government, within this review, should set parameters for some sort of multi-annual review of the code moving forward? Because things are changing within the farming industry, with all the things you want to see, with more cattle on the land, but appreciating that that can take time. And also, with climate change as well, do you think this is a code that should be more regularly reviewed? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786245 58 En 2026-11-11T09:58:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1648&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1648&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian I think there should be flexibility built into it, shouldn't there? I think that's one of the points we've raised. Paul made the point about grazing. Ideally, you have the appropriate level of grazing on your upland or your common land area to create that mosaic of habitats. Where you haven't got that—. And that's going to take time in some areas to—. Farming is a long-term business. You can't just turn a switch and suddenly we'll all increase stock numbers. It takes time. And increase stock numbers to an appropriate level, I would add. We're not talking about just a blanket increasing of stock numbers here now; what we need to do is find the appropriate level for each area. And it will be different on different commons. But it comes back to that you need the flexibility in there, so that you can manage your upland area from a wildfire point of view, rather than just from a biodiversity point of view, which is what we have looked at in the past. Twenty years ago, that would have been the key focus; I don't remember a lot of wildfires in 2008.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786248 59 En 2026-11-11T09:59:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1711&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1711&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel It totally needs updating, I'd say, annually, because of climate change. The Met Office can predict, six or 12 months ahead, the weather. We need to look at every bit of technology we've got. We have—and I'm guilty of it as well—spoken about uplands and commons, but we can have wildfires in urban areas and on arable land, so we need to educate society. How do we stop 14-year-old kids doing TikTok wildfire videos? I spoke to a couple of guys from NRW down in Resolven. As they were putting out the fire, there were kids behind them starting other fires. How do we educate? We need to take this into schools. This is a problem. Just make them aware of fire and the dangers of it. There's something exciting about fire. I lit a bonfire for my grandkids the other night, and we were all quite excited about it. There's something powerful about a fire, but we need education around it and the dangers. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786314 60 En 2026-11-11T10:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1714&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1714&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786324 61 En 2026-11-11T10:01:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1779&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1779&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul I would say it's not just about relooking at the burning legislation. The burning needs to be part of a whole strategy. I think we need now a centralised strategy for the management of the uplands, not only to mitigate the fire load, the wildfires, but everything else that's encompassed with the management of uplands in Wales. If you encompass it in a strategy, then I think it will be looked at on an annual basis. The two examples that you've just had show you the diversity and difference between our uplands. Hywel there was talking about 14-year-olds in urban areas. Up in north Wales, we're not that urban. The problem that we have is the swathes of visitors that we get across to north Wales on holiday, and day visitors and walkers. I was listening to the evidence from the fire service last week, and they were talking about education, which absolutely, yes, needs to be part of it. But that won't actually reach out to the people in north Wales who possibly live in Cheshire, Merseyside and further afield, because they're not in the local schools, they're not in the local vicinities—they're just day visitors, and they are equally as much of a problem. So, we need an overarching strategy and burning will be part of that, of course, as will rewetting, trees possibly, but it has to be bespoke to each individual area, as was testified last week by the fire service. What works down in south Wales would probably not work in north Wales and would be different in mid Wales. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786333 62 En 2026-11-11T10:02:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1887&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1887&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. We've talked a little bit about policy changes. One thing we do have is the sustainable farming scheme, and I know there are a lot of us around this table who can remember Tir Gofal, then we went into Glastir, then, when we left the European Union, we had 'Brexit and our land', 'Sustainable Farming and our Land', and our sustainable farming scheme. It's not that many years over which we've had all those schemes either. In terms of the SFS, what parts of it do you think need to change to enable farmers to be part of the solution to addressing wildfires? Because, obviously, addressing flooding is a part of the sustainable farming scheme, it's one of the measures and one of the outcomes of it. Wildfires is not one of those metrics. You might be thinking, 'We weren't invited to the round-table by the Welsh Government, much to our displeasure.' But it's one of those things. Is that something that may be changing in the future that you know, or something that your unions are pushing on, to try and get, perhaps, resilience to fire as part of the sustainable farming scheme going forward and changing? I'll start with Paul, it that's all right. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786336 63 En 2026-11-11T10:03:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=1950&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=1950&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul The simple answer to that, Chair, is that you need to fund the SFS properly if you want to deliver on all these aspects. In every meeting I go to these days, the SFS seems to be the answer to everything. I might be missing something, but it sounds to me that this SFS is a bottomless pit of money, which we all know it isn't. We in NFU Cymru have said from the very beginning that, for it to be an encompassing policy that everybody wants agriculture to deliver in every stream, we were looking at a budget of at least £500 million, just to stand still to the levels that we were getting 15 years ago. We all know the pressures of inflation have eaten away at that. The pot of money that we have in the SFS is what it is. We all understand that it's difficult out there from a budgetary point of view. I would say that, looking after the uplands, looking after the carbon storage, mitigating fire loads, looking after the nature, looking after the water quality that these uplands bring, is a public good. If it is a public good, then there needs to be a different funding stream for the outcomes that the public are expecting us to deliver. Asking a very small pot of money that is the SFS to deliver above and beyond just will get us nowhere, and it will get us nowhere very quickly, and we will be sitting here in 10 years' time with the same problems, I'm afraid. So, the answer is simple, but the solution is very difficult. It needs to be properly funded if we are expecting the SFS to deliver anything above and beyond what it's currently delivering. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786258 64 En 2026-11-11T10:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2014&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2014&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786284 65 En 2026-11-11T10:09:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2311&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2311&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786261 66 En 2026-11-11T10:05:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2063&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2063&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel I agree with a lot of what Paul has said. To me, we've spent years designing the agriculture scheme, the SFS, but when it comes to common land, the social value payment of that common land still gets paid to the right holder. That right holder could actually live in London. Why on earth are we paying a social value payment for somebody who has one sheep—enough to trigger the payment on common land—when there is no management? If those commons, uplands or farms were overgrazed, that would be a different story. But, at the moment, we are talking about fire loads and lack of management. To me, that seriously needs looking at—the social value payment for just having rights on commons. A lot of these people are buying farms in Wales, and whether they're planting trees or rewilding them, they just tick a few boxes, enough to get that sustainable farming scheme payment, which needs addressing. The active farmer test has to be addressed, policed and tested. In the basic payment scheme, it never was. At the moment, there are some elements of it being scrutinised. But I think there's a problem on common land. If you think about it, as a common land farmer, you're seeing that mountain getting undergrazed, Molinia developing, your sheep not thriving because of ticks or various issues and the poor quality of grazing, and then somebody just down the road just gets the same payment as you, and you're doing all of the hard work. There's your quad bike, your horse, whatever you do for managing the shepherding and the hefting, et cetera, the dogs get battered, we take every disease off the common. If you join a common, you have to maintain the fences. But that person with grazing rights—. We shouldn't be paying on hectares; we should be paying on management. 'Public money for public good' is what it says. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786271 67 En 2026-11-11T10:08:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2207&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2207&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian I agree with Paul. The sustainable farming scheme has got a limited budget. The agricultural budget has been frozen since 2013, effectively—no increase for inflation. So, you're asking it to do a lot more. Wildfires are obviously a climate change issue. There's a climate change budget out there. I don't have the figures to hand, but the climate change budget is significantly larger than the rural affairs budget. So, is there an opportunity here for funnelling some of that money into some of this work? Yes. I think the sustainable farming scheme has a part to play. There are training modules in there that farmers currently have to comply with for continuing professional development. You could have a wildfire training module in there. I know it's a controversial issue and a lot of farmers aren't happy about that, the CPD aspects of it, but there are opportunities there. In terms of some of the issues that Hywel has addressed there now about active graziers, you can address that within the collaborative layer and the optional layer. Universal has got to be easily accessible to all farmers. Make it simple, make it truly universal, so that we can all access the universal layer. That's our safety net. You do this kind of work in the optional and collaborative layer, I would argue. I think there's a huge opportunity for upland areas and from a common land point of view for those active graziers to get together in the collaborative area. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786277 68 En 2026-11-11T10:09:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2289&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2289&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James John, I think you had a question on the sustainable farming scheme, didn't you? If you don't, don't worry. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786278 69 En 2026-11-11T10:09:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2294&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2294&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 4650 4650 John Davies AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 Davies, John I think most of them have already been answered on that one, but I'll keep mine for the funding, if I can. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786282 70 En 2026-11-11T10:09:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2302&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2302&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Yes, please. That's fine. Are there any other questions on the SFS? No. We'll be running out of time shortly, and I'm worried that other Members haven't come in yet. Anna, do you want to talk about other policy levers that you think could be beneficial? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786255 71 En 2026-11-11T10:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2314&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2314&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786257 72 En 2026-11-11T10:10:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2320&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2320&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna We've already touched on this, but I noticed in the FUW's evidence you were talking about the need for this joined-up policy approach, and it feels like what we've just been talking about. We've got to have solutions that work for climate resilience, biodiversity and flooding as well. We've got to have things that look across the board. Maybe the committee's got a role in looking at what is that whole system that we need to be looking at more and the different pots of money out there. Are there particular areas you think we need to be looking at—other policy levers or tools here that would be useful? We heard, in the previous session, about Ffermio Bro, peatland management and so on. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786264 73 En 2026-11-11T10:10:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2368&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2368&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I'll start with Hywel, if that's okay. If you can keep your contributions short, because we've got five minutes left and there's lots to get through. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786265 74 En 2026-11-11T10:11:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2375&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2375&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel I think what's really missing from the policy is the next generation—the young farmers. There is nothing in the SFS for young farmers in land management techniques. They're the ones that learn and change quickly and tackle these issues, but there's no support. It's even going back to education—what do we need to do in the countryside? What are the issues? What are the potential problems? Not yesterday or today, but what's going to happen in the future? We can predict lots of things, but we've got to be prepared and trained for it. I don't know whether the fire brigade needs to have better equipment to put out these wildfires.  There needs to be a collaboration: where do we go? How do you get the farmer or the contractor to bring his slurry tanker? I spoke to my local contractor and he was absolutely shattered. He'd spent four days around the clock, hired tractors and slurry tankers to tackle it. He didn't get paid. There were a lot of landowners, but nobody knew who owned what. They were putting out fires, but they didn't know whose. He's had a little bit of funding. The insurance wasn't even covering him to put his tractors at risk. There's so many factors in there. But prevention is cheaper than cure. And going back, it's about livestock, livestock, livestock—and especially cows. Lots of the world's problems can be sorted by cows. We blame cows for so many things, but for me, that water cycle, better quality air, it all revolves around the cows and grazing. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786272 75 En 2026-11-11T10:12:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2489&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2489&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Laura, do you want to come in briefly? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786273 76 En 2026-11-11T10:12:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2491&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2491&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Just really briefly. Excuse me for being late. You've talked about what's happening in the future and putting things in place to ensure things don't happen again, but one of the things that happens is that the commoners and farmers, as you've just outlined, put a lot of money and a lot of effort and resource into stopping the fires—and they would have got a lot worse if it wasn't for them—alongside the fire service, so credit to them. But, obviously, that money hasn't come back. There's been no support. That needs to be immediate, I would say, as well as looking to the future and making sure that doesn't happen again, so that they're more prepared financially. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786276 77 En 2026-11-11T10:13:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2526&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2526&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Some farmers down in the Valleys, in the Pontypool area, were saying that the sheep are struggling with their health at the moment. It's an ongoing thing. The Minister said the SFS deals with it. No, the SFS was dealing with—. 'Well, if there was no wildfire, the SFS money was sorting things out anyway.' There is no extra money. People's livelihood is at risk. A lot of farmers in our area say sheep farming on common land isn't viable, because you take all this risk and the grazing gets worse. It's a complex process, common land farming, but it has to be handed down from generation to generation. My father used to spend most of his time on a hill. As a kid, I thought, 'What's he doing there?' Once you get a bit older, you understand that this is what we need to do. It's time-consuming. It's rewarding, it's a fantastic place to be—there are no people there, which is great—but it comes at a cost. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786292 78 En 2026-11-11T10:14:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2594&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2594&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Do you have anything else to add to what Hywel has already said? The only reason is that we're running out of time. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786295 79 En 2026-11-11T10:14:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2599&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2599&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul First of all, I'd like to put on record our gratitude to the fire and rescue service for the work that they've done over the summer. But, obviously, it's our members as well. These are the people who have smoke in their lungs and who have ash in their eyes because they were seeing their livelihoods go up in smoke. They spent days. They didn't work to shifts, they spent days. So, when the fire service had to change shifts and went home, our guys and girls were up there fighting for their livelihoods. First and foremost, we have to remember that people have their livelihoods connected to these uplands and to these commons. So, those people should be first and foremost in any strategy going forward, making sure that we don't face similar to what we've faced today. We've all, I think, commonly said that we have most of the answers in the fact that we are undergrazing these uplands. So, a strategy must be a focus now. We talked about cattle. I absolutely 100 per cent agree cattle will have a huge role to play in doing this, because you can control—. We have technology now that will actually control where cattle graze. We don't need to fence, we don't need to electric-fence, we have technology. We will never get the sheep numbers back to where they were in the early to mid-1990s. You would argue, at that time, there could possibly have been overgrazing, but we will never get back to those figures, I don't think, personally. So, I just want this committee to put the pressure on the Government, informing any strategy that keeps the people who have to eke a living, and who are actively managing these uplands, to make sure that they are first and foremost in any policy direction that they take. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786166 80 En 2026-11-11T10:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2614&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2614&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786214 81 En 2026-11-11T10:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2914&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2914&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786179 82 En 2026-11-11T10:16:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2710&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2710&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. Thank you. I now Niamh hasn't come in yet, and we are eating into the break, but I'm going to let it happen, because I think the discussion's good. I know Niamh wants to talk about landscape co-ordination, if that's okay, really quickly. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786185 83 En 2026-11-11T10:16:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2724&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2724&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Yes. I'll try and keep it quite quick, because I know the time—. You spoke about the need for collaboration quite a lot throughout this session; I think it's really, really important. Did you see that landscape skill co-operation, collaboration, or lack of it, really, as a barrier during the wildfires, with land managers and NRW and the fire service and so on? Was it quite frustrating and a barrier for your members? How do you want to see that improved, I guess, next summer, if we see this happening year after year? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786184 84 En 2026-11-11T10:17:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2754&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2754&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian Yes, absolutely. I think it's about getting every—. I had a conversation—I'll be brief—in the wildfire summit, with I think it was the mid and west Wales fire chief, and he was really keen. Because, obviously, a fire breaks out in an area, the fire service, obviously—and all praise to the fantastic work they did, and that the farmers did, and the communities who supported them through all the efforts last summer—who do they contact? Who do they speak to? Who are the local farmers with the local knowledge? And then, if they need to create firebreaks, is it a sensitive habitat? Do they need to speak to NRW? So, there needs to be a one-stop shop, and we need to get everybody in the room and get some planning together. Prevention is always better than cure, I completely agree, and there's a long-term thing we need to do. But we're seven weeks away from 2027 now, action —. In the real world, we're going to struggle to get actions in place for next year. You certainly can't address the livestock numbers issue overnight, though it needs addressing. So, that's a long-term—. So, we need those conversations in place with all the different bodies, so that if, unfortunately, a fire does erupt in a certain place, the fire service know where to go. They know who to contact: 'I need to contact Mr Jones or Mr Williams in this area. Where are the resources? Where's the water? How do we control the fire?' So, yes, there's a job there for getting everybody in the room together. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786198 85 En 2026-11-11T10:18:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2843&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2843&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel There needs to be—like Ian said, whether it's 998 or whatever—a number, and of farmers, contractors who can help, who have got the equipment, in different areas, to tackle fires. I was talking to a guy from NRW, down in Resolven. There was chaos. There was panic there. They were doing their best—fire brigade, farmers, slurry tankers. They even had the landscape gardener with his mini digger coming up doing firebreaks. But then they quickly realised somebody had dug up a firebreak from peat, and that quickly burnt. A hundred years of peat just disappeared in minutes because there was no co-ordination. Nobody knew where the peat was, sort or thing. And that local knowledge is priceless. But how do you pull it all together? You need—. I don't know. With social media today, we're quite lucky, things can happen quicker. But I do feel like, years ago, even the church bell was a sign that there was something wrong, and everybody ran to find out. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786213 86 En 2026-11-11T10:19:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2912&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2912&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786453 87 En 2026-11-11T10:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=2914&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=2914&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Absolutely. As I've said previously, different areas will need a different response. I listened to last week's evidence, and the fire brigade maybe was suggesting that their kit wasn't adequate, and they were thinking about buying tractors and tankers. Well, they're the price of a house, combined. They don't need to because, possibly, they'd only use them for, hopefully, a couple of months of the year. We already have contractors within the agricultural industry. Most of us have got a slurry tanker that carries at least 2,000 gallons. But we need to make sure that the team is there in readiness—that the fire brigade, the local authority, Natural Resources Wales, the farmers and the landowners are co-ordinated. We do this with flooding. I know, in north Wales, we have agricultural contractors with significant pumps that are used normally for slurry that are on alert during a flood in the Conwy valley—a phone call or a WhatsApp message, and they're there. They will pump huge amounts of water, which no other pump that the fire brigade or any local authority would have access to could. So, again, I think the message is, it's mitigation: rather than fighting fires, let's prevent the fires from beginning. But we have the answers, we just need to be co-ordinated, and we need to have the right messaging to make sure that this is delivered. And as Ian said, we haven't got a lot of time. Wales saw the biggest by far in proportion of the wildfires last year. If you think about the Principality Stadium, 17,500 of those went on fire in Wales alone last year, just to put it into any context. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786497 88 En 2026-11-11T10:21:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3024&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3024&l=cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I think that's probably—. I'm sorry Members haven't been able to ask all the questions, but I think that's a nice way to draw this little session to a close. So, we've been beaten by time. We're going to take a very short break, for people to gather their thoughts, because you're coming back for our next session, on abattoirs. So, we'll come back at 10.25 a.m. on the dot, if that's okay. So, a very quick break. So, we'll go into private session for two seconds. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786506 89 Cy 261111-2 2. Gwydnwch yn erbyn tanau gwyllt yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 2. Wildfire resilience in Wales - evidence session with farming representatives I Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:22 a 10:25. The meeting adjourned between 10:22 and 10:25. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786204 90 En 2026-11-11T10:25:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3272&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3272&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Welcome back, everybody. We're now on to agenda item 3, and this is our first evidence session on the future of Welsh abattoirs, and an evidence session with farming representatives. This is a legacy issue that was raised by the previous Senedd committee, chaired by a member of our committee. So, it's very pleasing that we've got this to look at, because it's a big issue facing the sector across Wales. We've got the same witnesses in front of us. You don't need to introduce yourselves again. And we'll move on to our first question on this, which is the strategic approach to abattoir coverage across Cymru, and that is from Anna. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786209 91 En 2026-11-11T10:26:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3307&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3307&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Thank you. I think you're all calling for a more strategic approach here, and I suppose one of the things I wanted to ask about was that the new Government has now said that it's developing a new food strategy, wants to see local production, local processing and local procurement, then. So, what role do you think abattoirs, and making sure that we have this strategic network of abattoirs, have to play in achieving that strategic goal for the Government?   16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786215 92 En 2026-11-11T10:27:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3339&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3339&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Can I go first?  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786216 93 En 2026-11-11T10:27:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3340&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3340&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Yes.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786217 94 En 2026-11-11T10:27:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3341&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3341&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel I think every county should have at least one small abattoir, and Carmarthenshire hasn't got one at the moment. And as somebody that sells meat directly to consumers, I have to travel a long way. But I think—. It ties into the wildfires. I use my animals to manage the commons, and some of them, they're not just for meat production. So, if I take those animals to a market, I get hit because they're highland and they might not be what the supermarket wants. But for a consumer, they love that sort of thing—that five, six-year-old animal—so we need that facility. We need those facilities quite close to where the food is grown, so food miles et cetera. It's important for the customers. Customers find it important. A lot of my customers would be—. People have moved to the area for the lifestyle. But it's important that these abattoirs are funded adequately. Most of them have very old systems, and the biggest problem is the fridge, the capacity for throughput. We'll probably get on to the finance bit in a minute, but, yes, we need more in every county. And if we have individuals, small business, with on-farm infrastructure that can deal with it—. The rules become complex when you actually sell the product. Once you put a price on it, there's a different regulation, but a lot of farmers would love a facility. I've got pigs at the moment that need to be slaughtered. I have to take them to Maesteg, which is a three-hour round trip, and I just want to put them in my freezer. So, people will see food in a field, but how do we get that food on a plate?  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786234 95 En 2026-11-11T10:29:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3476&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3476&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Food miles is another big issue, isn't it. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786236 96 En 2026-11-11T10:29:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3477&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3477&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna That's great. And I suppose, then, on the flip side of that, if we're trying to make sure we've got local schools and hospitals and that bigger volume, I suppose, we want to be able to see those animals in the fields coming into the local— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786239 97 En 2026-11-11T10:29:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3493&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3493&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Just one other thing—I'd like to commend the Welsh Government for appointing Simon Wright to lead on food strategy. He has done a serious amount of good work over the years, and he's probably the best person the Welsh Government could appoint. I've worked with Simon on different projects and he is doing some good stuff, but he needs the backing of Government to deliver it. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786130 98 En 2026-11-11T10:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3514&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3514&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786206 99 En 2026-11-11T10:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3514&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3514&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Okay. Yes, that's good. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786207 100 En 2026-11-11T10:30:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3515&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3515&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Anybody else want to come in on that point? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786208 101 En 2026-11-11T10:30:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3516&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3516&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Yes. I think, for context, if I had been sitting here less than a year ago I'd have been telling you that we have four major abattoirs in Wales that fill the volume—so, your supermarkets. Unfortunately, we're now down to three, which isn't a good place. The large abattoirs are vitally important for Welsh livestock in Wales and, as I say, they fulfil the large-volume meat processing for your supermarkets. But we have a network of small to medium and even micro slaughterhouses that are as vital to Welsh livestock as the larger ones as well, and we have to keep that in mind. I am lucky where I live, just above Llanrwst. We have two excellent butchers that not only provide meat for the local vicinity, but they feed into a lot of the hotels in Betws-y-Coed, down the coast for Llandudno. Those establishments are big on provenance, and the beauty of that is we have a local livestock market in Llanrwst, and you literally cross the road and you are in the local Conwy Valley Meats abattoir. You cannot get a better story than that, when you're offering something on a plate to people who come on holiday who want best Welsh lamb, who want best local Welsh beef. It's literally come from not only a livestock market down the road, but has obviously come from an abattoir literally across the road. Food mileage is big when you're selling the added value. So, in the context of the whole abattoir system in Wales, they all play a vital role. There are a lot of pressures not only on the large, but even bigger pressures on our smaller abattoirs, purely because of costs and scale. We have to make sure that we do not lose any more of our capacity here in Wales, because even I have a beast who I want to put in the freezer—I've looked after it for long enough now—but I can't get that into my local small abattoir until at least February. It's not because they're so busy. These are operators who maybe operate two to three days a week. They couldn't afford to operate more than that, because they would then jump up a scale from being maybe a micro abattoir to a small or a medium, and they'd get clobbered by costs. So, you know— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786219 102 En 2026-11-11T10:32:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3675&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3675&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Regulation costs. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786220 103 En 2026-11-11T10:32:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3676&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3676&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Regulation costs, yes. So, yes, as vital as our large abattoirs are, we should never underestimate the place and the services our smaller and micro abattoirs play as well.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786222 104 En 2026-11-11T10:32:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3692&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3692&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Ian. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786224 105 En 2026-11-11T10:32:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3693&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3693&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian Yes, I've got the figures in front of me now. So, in 1990, there were 58 red meat abattoirs in Wales, from a red meat point of view. In 2026, there are now 15. So, we've dropped from 58 to 15 in 30 years, or less than 30 years, isn’t it? So, yes, absolutely, they should be critical infrastructure, but we need a strategic assessment of capacity, don't we, as well? There should be—. It's no good just saying on a blanket case, 'Oh, we should have one here and one here.' We need to assess where the livestock are, because that story that Paul's given you about Llanrwst, you can make the same—. I was thinking, as Paul was saying it, about Llandeilo, where I live. I don't like using personal examples, but I will.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786227 106 En 2026-11-11T10:33:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3740&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3740&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Other abattoirs are available. [Laughter.] 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786230 107 En 2026-11-11T10:33:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3741&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3741&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian Yes, other abattoirs are available, and other pubs are available. We have a local pub in Llandeilo and he does a lot of meals and a lot of people call in there for food. Food's a big thing, isn't it, in hospitality? And it’s a big thing with him, that he buys his lambs in the local market in Ffairfach, near Llandeilo, but where’s he going to get them slaughtered? We haven't got the process. That story that Paul's given you: we need to cut those food miles down as much as we can. His opportunities to get those animals slaughtered are limited, because some of the—. And Paul's absolutely spot on: the big abattoirs are absolutely crucial. There's another issue there, but we won't get into that debate, on critical mass in the industry, et cetera. They're absolutely crucial, but the small abattoirs are crucial as well. They all have a part to play, but we need a strategic assessment of where they should be and how we encourage them. We'll get into that later. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786235 108 En 2026-11-11T10:34:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3800&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3800&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I think critical mass is going to come up later, so we will get into that discussion. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786237 109 En 2026-11-11T10:34:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3804&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3804&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel One more point from me. Sorry, Chair. We're always talking about small abattoirs and looking after them. The butchers need looking after alongside them. You can't have one or the other. Unless that high-street butcher can have somewhere to slaughter and he can pick farmers to buy from, et cetera—that's part of the problem. The abattoir can slaughter my pigs next month, hopefully, but he can't cut, pack and store them. So, my butcher is the one that will receive those pigs, cut them up, pack them and distribute them back to me or some of my customers. It takes both. I think it's looking after the high-street butcher. Once that's gone, it's game over, I think.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786095 110 En 2026-11-11T10:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3814&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3814&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786096 111 En 2026-11-11T10:35:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3859&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3859&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna It's the whole supply chain infrastructure. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786097 112 En 2026-11-11T10:35:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3861&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3861&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. John. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786098 113 En 2026-11-11T10:35:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3864&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3864&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 4650 4650 John Davies AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 Davies, John I'm just trying to put some sort of context into all of this. From my background of dealing with the Financial Conduct Authority, who tend to put lots of rules in place, when quite often they don't fully understand what it is that they're doing, and they cover so many areas that it does make it very, very difficult for smaller businesses to survive, I'm just trying to find out, with regard to the smaller abattoirs, what sorts of costs—extra costs—come in and extra red tape? Are these really realistic? Are they needed? Are they material? And any solutions that you would have to mitigate them? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786099 114 En 2026-11-11T10:36:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3911&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3911&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786100 115 En 2026-11-11T10:36:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=3912&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=3912&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Thank you for the question. You're absolutely right. We have been involved, although not directly, but we have been assisting the meat packers industry and the meat slaughter industry in a recent legal case, actually, on Food Standards Agency charging. We've met with members of the FSA during the Royal Welsh show as well. I think it's probably down to interpretation what they think is a small or a medium-sized abattoir. Because, ultimately, if we are going to legislate and force costs onto these abattoirs, where, firstly, it might well push them out of existence, or secondly, and most definitely, any additional cost incurred by these abattoirs, be they large or small, will inevitably find its way down the supply chain to the prime producer, and that would be the livestock producer. There is still a piece of work to do, I think, to agree on what is a micro, a small, a medium and a large abattoir, certainly in Wales, to make sure that the costs that they are thinking of applying to these abattoirs are proportionate to the livestock throughput, but, most of all, don't threaten their very existence, because, ultimately, that won't help anybody.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786101 116 En 2026-11-11T10:38:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4009&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4009&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Thank you. Ian. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786102 117 En 2026-11-11T10:38:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4012&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4012&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian The FSA, the Food Standards Agency, are going through an exercise at the moment, aren't they, because there was a legal challenge to their cost system. I've sat in one or two of those meetings, and it's extremely complicated. I'm sure the processing sector will have plenty to say on that. A couple of figures that I've got here show that, for this year, for 2026-27, those costs to all abattoirs were increased. The hourly rates for official veterinarians increased by 20.8 per cent this year. That's a very large increase. Meat hygiene inspector rates increased by 12.3 per cent. Now, obviously, that affects all processors, doesn't it, because they all have to have a vet and obviously comply with all the legal and hygiene requirements, but the bigger abattoirs are more easily able to cope with that. Obviously, they can spread the cost over a larger number of throughput. It's the medium to small guys who really struggle with these increases, because that can be the straw that breaks the camel's back, whether a process is viable or not. So, at the moment, the small abattoirs do get a discount scheme from the FSA, where they're eligible for up to 90 per cent of a discount. But I think the issue with that is that it kicks in at various levels, or various sizes of throughput of the abattoir, and obviously if you're on the wrong side, you move up a little step, you try and increase your throughput, you lose your discount. So, I think the whole area needs closely looking at. But, yes, it's that issue of throughput, isn't it? And the small and medium guys need more support, because they haven't got a broad base to cover the cost, of course. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786374 118 En 2026-11-11T10:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4114&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4114&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786395 119 En 2026-11-11T10:40:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4122&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4122&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James And talking about throughput there, I know Niamh wanted to talk about livestock production, which I think would be quite useful. I know I'm jumping ahead. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786398 120 En 2026-11-11T10:40:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4131&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4131&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh I was caught off guard then, sorry. I was writing stuff down. The livestock production side I wanted to focus a bit more on is to do with the national picture. Is this something that we're seeing across the UK, or is it more unique, what we're seeing in Wales, when it comes to the decrease in our abattoirs? Then, if that is the case, are we seeing farmers having to go to England as a way of slaughtering their animals? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786401 121 En 2026-11-11T10:40:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4159&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4159&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul It is a national trend, livestock numbers nationally are going down, but it's not even just in the UK; we are seeing global livestock figures actually falling. When you have countries like America who are short on beef, that really tells you a story. But, look, we won't worry about them, we want to concentrate on Wales. It's important, I think, to reiterate that we need—. The demand for our products now is unprecedented. We are seeing unprecedented prices for our beef and our lamb. Rightly so. Don't get me wrong, we're not millionaires now, because the cost of production is so high, so we're about the same place as we were five or 10 years ago. But the good news is that we are exporting more and there might be opportunities again to open up more markets, not only in Europe, but overseas as well. But our large abattoirs are running under capacity, which is not a good place when you are running a very large business like that. So, all the indicators are there that we need more throughput through our Welsh abattoirs, because of the demand for our products here in Wales. We have PGI status. We have an excellent story. Selling Welsh meat is easy because of the landscape that we have, the story behind our systems. You can easily sell. It's not just about the production: we have culture behind our products, we have language, we have everything that comes with farming in Wales. So, we are at a point where, worldwide, there is a massive demand now for our product, but there need to be levers to make sure that the three major abattoirs, and all the other smaller micro abattoirs we have in Wales, have the throughput that the demand is driving. As I said, I can't get my animal into the abattoir for another three to four months, purely because of capacity issues. And only a small abattoir can do what I want them to do, i.e. kill an animal for me, cut it up, vacuum pack it, so I can put it in the freezer. A large abattoir doesn't do that: they're volume based, it's all for the supermarkets and outlets like that. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786407 122 En 2026-11-11T10:43:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4304&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4304&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Before you come back, Niamh, I know Andrew wanted to get in on throughput. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786410 123 En 2026-11-11T10:43:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4307&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4307&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Obviously, the opening remarks painted a picture of decline in the processing sector, and that's quite correct to say—15 plants now, there were 58 some 30 years ago—but that's against a backdrop of, as you were saying there, Paul, unprecedented demand for protein, whether that be red meat protein or white meat protein. The real issue here is that, if we don't have that processing facility, on an economic point, that's exporting the economic potential to another part of the United Kingdom, which is adding significant value to that animal. Because we've seen it in the milk industry historically, where that milk field in west Wales lost a huge amount of its processing capacity, and now you're seeing artics trucking it over to Severnside and Sedgemoor and Droitwich to be processed, because the big processors in the milk industry, 20 years ago, chose to build the processing capacity for the next 40, 50 years on those sites. The real danger here is that we will be losing the ability to add value, is it not, to the protein that we produce, which is in unprecedented demand? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786412 124 En 2026-11-11T10:44:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4375&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4375&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Before you come in, Niamh, do you want to build on that a little bit? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786414 125 En 2026-11-11T10:44:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4377&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4377&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Yes. Again, touching on what Andrew said, and you mentioned it as well, Paul, when you were saying about the waiting list, are we seeing the livestock going to England? Is the waiting list short for the abattoirs there? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786417 126 En 2026-11-11T10:44:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4388&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4388&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Yes, unfortunately. If you think about north Wales, as I said, we unfortunately lost one major abattoir in north Wales in the last year. We have a large abattoir right on the other side of the border. I'm afraid it's on the wrong side of the border for us, but inevitably those livestock now are diverted away from a Welsh abattoir and across the border into the English side of things. So, it's in the interest of everybody here in Wales who wants to see a Welsh food and drink industry grow to keep as much of our abattoirs here in Wales, purely because we have that provenance. It makes no sense that we are carting artic loads of our lamb and our beef across the border because we haven't got the capacity in Wales. We have the livestock, we have the climate, we have the systems here in Wales to produce more livestock. We're not talking about intensive farming measures here; we've said this morning that livestock will mitigate a lot of the problems, and not cause them. But we need the livestock to fill these abattoirs and make sure that these abattoirs are working at capacity. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786313 127 En 2026-11-11T10:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4414&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4414&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786315 128 En 2026-11-11T10:45:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4467&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4467&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Hywel. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786316 129 En 2026-11-11T10:45:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4468&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4468&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Going back to the Food Standards Agency, there is that discount for the smaller one. I think, as Ian said, it's the bit in between the medium size that gets complex. A lot of these small abattoirs, they're old, they probably need modernising to comply with regulation. There is no support for that infrastructure. They're run by traditionally older generation abattoir owners. In Maesteg—it will be a classic—not too far from here, it'll be in the middle of a big town, which is probably prime for development, so there's that pressure as well. Perhaps we need to build small abattoirs dotted around the country, as I said. You mentioned if it's Wales based or UK. My son deals with it weekly, and he was telling me last night it's a big problem—small abattoirs. He produces quite a few animals for Tebay services every day, every week, as the farm manager there. But I think it's how you get the farmer to supply the abattoir, to supply the butcher, and that to supply the local schools. We need to feed local schools. Personally, I think we should be targeting—Hybu Cig Cymru are more interested in the numbers game, because of they're levy. Perhaps they should be working more on a percentage rather than per-head of animal. How do we get the schools to consume and have that meat on the table, rather than processed food. But a lot of the schools have got contracts with Sodexo and people like that. That food isn't fit for purpose. What headteachers are saying is kids don't like it. The custard, for example, is called yellow gravy, sort of thing. It isn't good. Why are we so obsessed by feeding rich nations rather than feeding those young children at school? And even in hospitals, where we've got the best surgeons in the world, probably, as well-paid surgeons, then we put them back in the ward and we feed them substandard processed food. Public sector procurement could be based around a smaller abattoirs system. Going on to the large abattoirs, they are processing at small numbers at the moment just because of the profit margins. They could kill a lot more, but there'd be no profit in it. I spoke to the guy from St Merryn last week and he said they kill 1,000 lambs a day when they could do 3,500. He said they were losing money once they go over that 1,000. So, it's all about the volume and scale. I'm not criticising, as a farmer, because the livestock is paying well at the moment, but the cost of everything—producing them, energy or whatever, machinery or anything we need—has gone up. So, as Paul said, we won't be millionaires unless we cash up and sell up, and once we do that, that's game over—communities are broken. So, I think the public sector needs looking at for procurement, and Simon Wright—we need to quickly do what he says—has been ranting and raving about this for years. I think we need to just listen to him and get that system in place. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786405 130 En 2026-11-11T10:49:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4701&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4701&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Just so people are aware, our three Members who are also Members of the Senedd Commission are leaving us now to attend the official two-minute silence over in the other Senedd building. Ian, did you have anything further to add—I know Andrew is leaving—on his point? Even though he's departing the room, he will look at the Record of Proceedings after. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786244 131 En 2026-11-11T10:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4714&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4714&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786246 132 En 2026-11-11T10:50:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4718&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4718&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian Thank you, Chair. I was just going to say that, absolutely, it is a UK issue. Obviously, if you're a farmer close to the English border and it's economically viable for you to send your livestock over to England to be processed, then you'll make that choice, won't you? But I'll just make the point about the fact that farmers in west Wales probably haven't got that choice. With transport costs at the moment, fuel costs, transport, as we all know, is a massive issue. We're trying to cut down food miles. As Paul has said, we've got a fantastic product here in Wales. We should be processing that product here in Wales rather than, those jobs—. We're exporting jobs over the border if we are taking stock to England. So, I think we need to get back to having enough processing capacity in Wales to cope with the livestock we've got, rather than exporting it over the border. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786249 133 En 2026-11-11T10:50:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4766&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4766&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I've got a million-dollar question: how do you get back to that level? Everyone knows my own interest in this. Buying breeding stock is very, very expensive. If you're holding lambs, for example, which you could then sell, to keep on as breeding ewes, to increase your own throughput, that's money you're not having in your pocket to help pay for other bills that are coming in. I'm just interested, from your perspective—perhaps not a very long-winded answer—what are the very short-term measures that Government could use to help increase livestock numbers, which would, in turn—. Yes, it's going to be a 12 to 18-month process to try and get our abattoirs back up to where they need to be. We need more livestock, but the question is how do we get there. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786251 134 En 2026-11-11T10:51:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4811&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4811&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel It's all about the profit or production. Are we looking for more production or profit? As a business, we have to be focused on the profit before the production and the increase in numbers. There's a balance. With the price of lambs, they are selling pretty well, because the sheep numbers have dropped with bluetongue et cetera and various reasons. The scanning results so far coming through from these early lambers aren't fantastic. Next year's lamb crop looks to be even less than this year. And there's a danger that these bigger abattoirs might fold. ABP have just bought Randall Parker. That's a big concern, probably, for people working in Llanidloes. You've got energy costs running an abattoir. You've got staffing issues. I used to work in a dairy years ago, and this cut-throat business sort of thing—. And I think, with local butchers, the price of meat in the local butchers isn't more expensive than in a supermarket. I was on about my son working for Tebay services. The price of their meat is the same as in the supermarket, but it's from a known source, there's a story behind it, they are native breeds and they like to think that it's a better product. And I think it's about education—to get schools, catering in schools, cooking, et cetera, more home economics. We need to start a food revolution somehow, but it starts, basically, from farmer, abattoir, butcher, to schools, hospitals locally to consume what's produced locally.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786262 135 En 2026-11-11T10:53:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4928&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4928&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786256 136 En 2026-11-11T10:53:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=4930&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=4930&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul It's all about critical mass. We have to make sure that the critical mass of our agricultural output here in Wales is, at the very least, maintained, if not enhanced, given what we've just heard about the demand for good-quality protein not only here in Wales, not only here in the UK, but worldwide. But in order to maintain or enhance that critical mass, and especially if you think about our next generation, they need the levers, they need the messaging to be clear from not only Government, but industry, the public, everywhere else, that this is an industry going forward, and it's a brilliant industry to work in. There's a lot of technology in this industry, but, most importantly, 'What you produce and how you produce it is actually now in demand. We value you.' But, unfortunately, past and previous policies have tended to push back on that. We have a huge legislational burden on our industry, be it water regulations, tuberculosis, and there's a lot of paperwork involved. Everything seems to put pressure against any youngster who wants to become part of this brilliant industry. Why would they invest the rest of their lives in an industry that has been, time after time after time, pushed back? The messaging hasn't been good. That needs to change. That narrative has to change, and it has to change now. I, basically, work to make sure that my farm is there for the next generation, should they wish or choose to take over. It's about making sure that there is an industry that they want to be a part of. And everybody has to play a part in making sure that the messaging, going forward, for these people, our next generation of farmers, is that it's a vibrant and valued industry, going forward. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786503 137 En 2026-11-11T10:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5014&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5014&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786512 138 En 2026-11-11T10:55:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5057&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5057&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I'll bring Ian in, then Paul, then Anna.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786528 139 En 2026-11-11T10:55:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5060&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5060&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian I'll try to be brief, Chair.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786529 140 En 2026-11-11T10:55:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5062&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5062&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Diolch. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786530 141 En 2026-11-11T10:55:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5063&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5063&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian One of the things we could do in the short term, one of the levers we could pull is the stocking rate limitations. We discussed in the earlier discussion looking at the fire burning code and whether that should be updated, well, we're working to stocking rate limitations on habitat, stocking rate recommendations, that go back 30, 40 years. So, are they at the appropriate level? Are we assessing that they're being applied appropriately? I think that's one thing to look at. I know that HCC are doing some work looking into the figures, and I referred to them in the earlier discussion, about the reduction in livestock numbers in the UK. So, where is that livestock? Where is that number of livestock being reduced? Is it more in the uplands, more in the lowlands? Which sector is more affected? So, we look forward to getting that information back from them. The only other thing I was going to say, as another immediate thing, and I know it has been mooted, is the issue around headage payment. So, for instance, with the decline in the suckler herd, and I know we've all heard about the importance of cattle in upland grazing in increasing biodiversity, et cetera, and all of the benefits they can give, is there a case here now that we should be looking at headage payments? It needs looking at very carefully, because how do you structure it? I know that Scotland have got ways of doing that. But I think some form of headage payment would be worth looking at. It's one lever we could pull in the short term, isn't it? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786538 142 En 2026-11-11T10:57:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5153&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5153&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I think that if we start to talk about headage payments, we could be here until this time tomorrow. Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786539 143 En 2026-11-11T10:57:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5159&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5159&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul So, I think that what I'm hearing is that the small abattoirs can't grow their businesses because there are some banding thresholds that make it difficult for them to grow their businesses. But, Hywel, I think I heard from you a vision that there would be at least one small abattoir in every county, so the animals don't have to travel so far and you can do that food miles thing very effectively. And that sounds to me like what you're talking about as well, Paul. But the big abattoirs are undersupplied at the moment, and that's what's making them—and it typically sounds like multinationals that own them—inclined to pull out of Wales. My gut feeling is that, if we could solve the problem for small abattoirs and allow them to grow, that would be better than trying to prop up the bigger ones. But that's just my gut feeling. Am I wrong?  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786540 144 En 2026-11-11T10:58:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5218&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5218&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul I would never say that you were wrong. [Laughter.] No, absolutely not. I'm not qualified for that. But it's not either/or; it's everything. So, the large abattoirs have a vital part to play in volume, and you've got to understand that most of the livestock produced in Wales is volume based, and that includes exports. We want to grow our export base for livestock in Wales. It's hugely important. The issue with smaller and medium-sized abattoirs is, as you said, if they're not careful, they will be penalised heavily for growing the business. They are trapped in a place where now, maybe, they only operate a couple of days a week, and if they went to full-time, which they could easily do because of the demand from people like me, they would be so heavily penalised on costs that it wouldn't be worth them doing that or, indeed, it would actually drive them out of business. So, that we need to relook at to make sure that there's an amicable way forward in charging for small to medium-sized businesses. But, as I said, it's not big versus small, it's everything, because they all play a very vital part in Welsh livestock, in the red meat industry in Wales. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786544 145 En 2026-11-11T10:59:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5297&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5297&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Just being conscious of time, I think the bell is due to ring for the two-minute silence, which, on my clock, says in 10 seconds, and on that one up there it also now says 10 seconds. So, when the bell rings, we'll have a two-minute silence. I will stand, and if Members feel they'd like to stand, they can as well, and also witnesses. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786266 146 En 2026-11-11T11:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5314&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5314&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786269 147 Cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives I Cynhaliwyd dau funud o dawelwch. A two minutes' silence was held. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786270 148 En 2026-11-11T11:02:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5439&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5439&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Members. I think you were about to kick off, Hywel. Thank you.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786274 149 En 2026-11-11T11:02:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5444&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5444&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel Just on that point, it's quite ironic that, with the small abattoirs, the critical mass isn't a problem for them, because they are flat out, they are busy, they are at that capacity. And like Paul says, we need both; it isn't one or the other. But I would like to see that small abattoir infrastructure getting more and getting busier—like I said, so that the local schools and the local hospitals, et cetera, have a system that deals with that. Castell Howell might be in a good place to deal with a lot of this, because Castell Howell feeds a lot of people, and they have a processing place as well. I'd like to see small abattoirs getting funded. For a lot of them, it might be just for fridge space, if they need them. If they put in a bigger fridge, they have to restrict their slaughtering capacity. So, they need funding. I don't think they've had much funding from Government for a long, long time. And if you think about the cyber attacks around the world, with fridges, et cetera, I don't think a local butcher or a small abattoir is really worried about AI taking over. I think there's a place for everyone. But I think having more abattoirs—. My home town, Llandovery, way before my time, used to have two small abattoirs and three butchers. There was probably a similar amount of people living there, or probably more; I don't know the stats on that. But we do need infrastructure and support for them, because, with a lot of what we're doing, conservation grazing, which has a big purpose in the countryside, if you take those to the local abattoir, we'll get penalised. They'll be overaged and you get penalised straight away, so we need the facilities. And with highlands, a lot of the abattoirs won't take a long-horned cow, so there are restrictions there as well. So, it's not one or the other. We know it's support for both.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786294 150 En 2026-11-11T11:04:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5583&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5583&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James We're running out of time again; it's the joys of a Wednesday meeting. Paul, one very quick one, then Anna.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786296 151 En 2026-11-11T11:04:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5588&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5588&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul I was just coming back to that. With the larger abattoirs that you talked about, am I right in understanding that they're not owned within Wales, whereas the small ones particularly are? And is that ownership, and the fact that, probably, the owners of those don't, in the grand scheme of things, give two hoots about Wales—? Is that an issue? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786300 152 En 2026-11-11T11:04:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5613&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5613&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Maybe that's slightly unfair. You're absolutely right, the large abattoirs that we have are multinationals. It has been said this morning that we've just had an acquisition of one of our major abattoirs last week. I cautiously welcome that, because that is an existing abattoir and a good abattoir, which I had the pleasure of actually visiting weeks ago. But even they were telling us at the time that that abattoir needs significant investment if it's to carry on for the future and be futureproofed. As Hywel said, we have a choice here. We either support our abattoirs, be they large or small, in Wales, and that might well be an element of Government funding in investing for the future, or we decide not to and, inevitably, those abattoirs will close. It'll shift to the larger ones, closer to the conurbations, closer to the road networks across the border. But that will, inevitably, mean that our livestock here in Wales will travel for longer, and we lose that added value in Wales that we are not actually slaughtering them and adding value to those carcasses here in Wales. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786377 153 En 2026-11-11T11:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5614&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5614&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786434 154 En 2026-11-11T11:08:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5851&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5851&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786406 155 En 2026-11-11T11:06:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5696&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5696&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Diolch, Paul. Sorry, I want to run to 10:10. We are running very behind now. Anna. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786408 156 En 2026-11-11T11:06:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5703&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5703&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna I know we're behind. There's lots I'm grappling with in my head about this, and I suppose it's partly about how do we make this financially viable. It's clear that abattoirs have got a key role in our food system here, but there's something where—. You're saying places can't take more than 1,000 lambs a day, so in some places it's not about not having enough to go through, it's that it's not financially viable to do that. So, that's on one hand. And then there is this big opportunity of demand. So, would we need—? Why isn't it financially viable for farmers to meet that demand without extra payments and stuff? But probably this is just me— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786411 157 En 2026-11-11T11:07:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5748&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5748&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 10768 Hywel Morgan Morgan, Hywel It's so complex. If you look at Castell Howell, when the national insurance rate went up, I can't remember the sheer scale of the financial—. I think it was £2 million in extra costs. Those wages stayed the same. They couldn't pay less for the product. They couldn't sell it for more, and they couldn't buy it for less, so the workers had to take a hit. Even the energy costs—it's all these little factors that contribute to the profit of any business, not just this one. I think Andrew pointed to the fact about those dairies closing years ago. I used to work at one; I was a victim of a closure and redundancy. Nearly 300 people worked in our factory. All of a sudden, this gets traipsed all over Wales, the UK, to major big factories. That's not the solution. We're just exporting. It's a complex one. If you talk to small abattoir owners, they're not asking for much. Some of them are asking for about £30,000 for a new fridge. The local butcher just wants some support from the food hygiene inspector. He does his best, but he's got to comply with a big regulation structure, and because he's operating out of an old butcher's shop, it's difficult to make things work. I think small abattoirs and butchers must be looked after. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786437 158 En 2026-11-11T11:08:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5853&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5853&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12563 Ian Rickman Rickman, Ian There's already a recognition that small and medium-sized abattoirs face a bigger burden of the regulatory costs, by the up to 90 per cent discount that they receive on their FSA charges, so there's already a recognition there that that's a huge issue. So, that is a big issue for them, there's no getting away from that. Some of these small and medium-sized abattoirs would benefit from capital expenditure as well, some capital grants, to help them with it, be it fridges or whatever they need. As Hywel said, in many cases, it's not a massive investment, it wouldn't be the scale of investment that you get from your Dunbia plant in Llanybydder or Merthyr for that matter. So, it's a relatively small investment. But we're never going to solve—. And I'm sure Simon Wright is going to get into this; we're going back to Simon again. You're never going to get a good food strategy for Wales, with a fantastic local product, produced locally, processed locally, and into our local schools and hospitals, from a red meat point of view, unless we address the issue around processing and abattoir capacity. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786376 159 En 2026-11-11T11:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5914&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5914&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786385 160 En 2026-11-11T11:10:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5926&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5926&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. Another nice way to round off the session. I think that's about right. Thank you very much for your evidence today. It was quite a lively evidence session. I like lively evidence sessions, with people giving plenty of opinions and views on things. It's always very well appreciated. I'll never forget an ex Senedd Member here telling me, 'If you want an easy ride at a meeting with farmers, just ask them their opinion, and sit back and enjoy the rest of the meeting.' [Laughter.] 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786388 161 En 2026-11-11T11:10:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5954&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5954&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 12564 Paul Williams Williams, Paul Happy to oblige, Cadeirydd.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786389 162 En 2026-11-11T11:10:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=5955&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=5955&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much. Just to let you know, for both sessions, you'll be sent a transcript of everything that has been said, to check for accuracy. If you could check that and then come back to us, that would be fantastic. But diolch yn fawr—thank you very much for your time. I wish you pleasant travels to wherever you're heading next. Diolch. Thank you. We're just going to pop into a short break now, and then we'll return. Thank you very much. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786393 163 Cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives I Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:11 ac 11:20. The meeting adjourned between 11:11 and 11:20. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786337 164 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=-34286&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=-34286&l=en 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786340 165 En 2026-11-11T11:20:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6546&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6546&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786425 166 En 2026-11-11T11:22:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6648&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6648&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786427 167 En 2026-11-11T11:22:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6649&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6649&l=cy 261111-3 3. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr ffermio 3. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with farming representatives C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786344 168 En 2026-11-11T11:20:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6547&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6547&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Welcome back, everybody to item 4 on the agenda, which is the future of Welsh abattoirs inquiry, and this is an evidence session with the British Veterinary Association. I'd like to welcome Phoebe McCarter, the Welsh president of the British Veterinary Association. Welcome to our committee this morning. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786351 169 En 2026-11-11T11:20:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6565&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6565&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Thank you very much. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786354 170 En 2026-11-11T11:20:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6566&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6566&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I think it would be quite useful for Members before we start—I know we've got, I think, about an hour with you—maybe if you could give a five-minute or 10-minute introduction to perhaps the work that vets do with regard to the abattoir system in Wales and the red meat sector. I think that would be quite useful. And then Members' questions will probably flow out from that. Would that be okay, if we can open with that, please? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786363 171 En 2026-11-11T11:21:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6590&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6590&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes, absolutely. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786366 172 En 2026-11-11T11:21:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6591&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6591&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Diolch. Thank you. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786368 173 En 2026-11-11T11:21:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6592&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6592&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe So, the British Veterinary Association represents about 19,000 veterinary professionals across the UK. About a thousand of those are in Wales, and we represent vets from across all sectors. And our primary interest within the red meat sector and abattoirs is, obviously, animal health and welfare and public health and the veterinary workforce, I suppose. So, official veterinarians—OVs—are an integral part of the slaughter process and the slaughter sector and they provide a really, really important connection between what happens on-farm, what happens, obviously, during transport to the abattoir and the slaughter process itself. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786419 174 En 2026-11-11T11:22:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6645&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6645&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786420 175 En 2026-11-11T11:22:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6646&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6646&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Is that enough information? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786423 176 En 2026-11-11T11:22:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6647&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6647&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James That's that, in a nutshell. That's enough. If that's what you want to provide, that's absolutely fine. So, we've got some questions, I know, from Members, and I know Anna wanted to lead us off with questioning in this session. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786432 177 En 2026-11-11T11:22:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6658&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6658&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Yes. Great. Thank you. So, I was wanting to ask about, I suppose, the role of official veterinarians in small abattoirs and large abattoirs, and what do you see as kind of almost your role, and the difference across that, I suppose, and what support each of them need? Perhaps that will lead us on to viability, I don't know, but, yes—. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786438 178 En 2026-11-11T11:22:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6686&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6686&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Okay. So, fundamentally, the role of the OV doesn't change. It doesn't really matter what size the plant is; the kind of official, regulatory roles that the OVs play should be the same across all sites. The differences, I think, and the challenges come with the operating environment. So, the larger plants will probably have more staff and more structured and standardised systems and things like that, and probably greater investment capacity as well. And smaller plants perhaps will have fewer staff and kind of slightly more fluid roles within the system, I suppose. But, ultimately, the OV's role is to maintain the same animal health and welfare— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786440 179 En 2026-11-11T11:23:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6750&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6750&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Across each of them. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786442 180 En 2026-11-11T11:23:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6751&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6751&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes. So, it doesn't really matter what size plant we're looking at, their roles should be the same, it's just the environment that they're working in that's slightly different. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786443 181 En 2026-11-11T11:24:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6761&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6761&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Do you see—? I mean, I don't quite know where I'm going with this, but do you see there being different challenges, then, I suppose? But not necessarily—. I mean, it's perfectly possible for each to kind of meet that, but it might happen in different ways, with the abattoirs, kind of like— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786447 182 En 2026-11-11T11:24:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6777&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6777&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes, I think with the larger plants, perhaps there's maybe more than one OV, for example, there are opportunities for training and audits and internal things like that, whereas the smaller plants perhaps struggle to kind of get those systems in place a bit better—perhaps they haven't got the resilience for somebody to be able to go and do a day of continuing professional development because they're needed on the front line, as it were. So, yes, they're kind of the challenges, rather than the nuts and bolts of the job itself, I think. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786439 183 En 2026-11-11T11:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6814&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6814&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786509 184 En 2026-11-11T11:25:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6817&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6817&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Okay. Great. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786507 185 En 2026-11-11T11:25:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6820&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6820&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. Have you finished, Anna? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786441 186 En 2026-11-11T11:25:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6821&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6821&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna I think I'll let it carry on. I had something on how viable the mobile abattoirs are as an option, and how that relationship would work. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786444 187 En 2026-11-11T11:25:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6838&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6838&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe So, I think—. To our knowledge, there aren't any fully mobile abattoirs in operation in the UK at the minute. In theory, I think they're worth exploring as a concept, but I think there are quite a lot of challenges regarding—. So, obviously, they'd still need to meet all the regulations in terms of lairage and having potable water, and being able to dress the carcasses and store them correctly. And what do you do with all the waste and the run-off water and things like that? And also, the potential biosecurity risks if you're not—. Potentially, if you don't fully cleanse and disinfect the mobile set-up, and then you drive it somewhere else, you're potentially taking disease from one place to another. I mean, none of those things are insurmountable, but they provide logistical challenges greater than the static set-ups. And I suppose, realistically, a mobile site probably would need a static site as well, kind of as a base. So, I don't know, in terms of the financial viability of that, whether that's actually of any greater benefit than the traditional set-up. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786471 188 En 2026-11-11T11:26:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6926&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6926&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Okay. Andrew, do you want to come in on this? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786473 189 En 2026-11-11T11:25:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6867&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6867&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Yes. I was reading a report last week in one of the papers that said that a mobile abattoir was going from the south coast of England to work up in Shetland, because their permanent abattoir had shut some years ago, and this abattoir was going up there on a trial basis. I was just wondering, would private practice veterinary surgeons have the experience and capacity to pick up work if you had a mobile abattoir, or has it got to be a dedicated meat-hygiene service vet? Because, obviously, that would increase costs, then, especially if you're looking to put a mobile abattoir in a remote location. But if the local large animal practice vets were sufficiently trained in their professional capacity to do it, that would open up a whole new level of supervision. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786480 190 En 2026-11-11T11:27:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=6975&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=6975&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe It would. I mean, certainly, meat hygiene and public health is part of the veterinary course at university. We all get trained in it to a certain extent. Obviously, then, when you go out and practice, you don't use it so often. That's not to say it couldn't be done. I think, probably, within a vet practice, having the capacity to release somebody for that sort of work might be a challenge, especially rural vet practices that struggle for staffing anyway. So, then, if there was an additional burden on their official capacity— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786484 191 En 2026-11-11T11:28:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7022&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7022&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. But professionally, there'd be no reason why a vet— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786486 192 En 2026-11-11T11:28:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7023&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7023&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Professionally, I don't see why they wouldn't. I mean, there might be a request for some continuing professional development in advance, but, yes, in theory, there wouldn't be any barriers to that. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786489 193 En 2026-11-11T11:28:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7033&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7033&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Okay, that's helpful. Thank you. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786491 194 En 2026-11-11T11:28:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7035&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7035&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Paul, do you want to come in? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786493 195 En 2026-11-11T11:28:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7037&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7037&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul Not on this. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786494 196 En 2026-11-11T11:28:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7038&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7038&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Not on this. I'm just interested in the charging regime. Obviously, that's set by for the Food Standards Agency. I'm just interested—something that the BVA come across regularly is that smaller abattoirs, even though they get discounted rates, are struggling with the costs and the regulatory burden that's put on them by the FSA, and, obviously, the OVs act on behalf of the FSA. I'm just wondering, is that something that your members pick up on the ground from the small and medium abattoirs, actually, that the regulation put on them, and the cost, even though, as I said, it's heavily discounted, can be a reason why they reduce production, as such? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786496 197 En 2026-11-11T11:29:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7073&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7073&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe I mean, like I said, I'm aware that the smaller abattoirs do get a greatly reduced charge for their OVs. But, yes, there needs to be recognition that the low throughput systems are—. The economics of them are totally different, so it's finding that balance between—. Obviously, the OV isn't just there as the regulatory person, I suppose; their role is really varied. And I think that trying to make the most of them being there, and seeing them as an asset to the business, rather than just something that you'd rather not pay for, but you have to because it's part of the regulations—I think that's probably the way to look at it, rather than just looking at just the numbers, I suppose. But, yes, it's a really tricky one. It's a circle I don't know how to square—or a square I don't know how to circle. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786557 198 En 2026-11-11T11:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7114&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7114&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786558 199 En 2026-11-11T11:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7114&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7114&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786583 200 En 2026-11-11T11:34:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7412&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7412&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786562 201 En 2026-11-11T11:30:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7144&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7144&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Because one thing that I know has come through from evidence, and what we've received—and, actually, I think we've spoken to some of the small abattoirs—is, actually, the support and advice that official vets can give. Sometimes, the ones that are just standing there aren't doing their job. It feels like, sometimes, they're just paying for someone to watch stock coming through, and that, actually, sometimes they're not providing that support and advice. Is there something you think, perhaps, they could do more of to support, in terms of the advice that they can offer to small abattoirs in terms of animal welfare, in terms of improving outputs, for example? Is that something you feel could be strengthened, perhaps? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786565 202 En 2026-11-11T11:31:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7181&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7181&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Absolutely, yes. So, like I said, the OV isn't just there in an enforcing compliance capacity at all. They have experience across health, welfare, public health et cetera, and disease surveillance. So, yes, it's making sure they have the time as well. If, in order to make ends meet, the goal is to just get through as many animals in a day as possible, then the OV doesn't have the capacity to explore those other things—perhaps the feedback that they could be providing to the farmers, to their vets, in terms of what they're finding in antemortem, postmortem inspections. Yes, there's a lot of scope, but I think there's not always a lot of time built into the system for that to be fully made the most of, I suppose. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786571 203 En 2026-11-11T11:32:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7244&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7244&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Okay. Workforce is obviously another big issue. I know some of our Members wanted to talk on this issue. I think John wanted to talk about workforce matters, if that's okay. Have I caught you on the hop, John? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786572 204 En 2026-11-11T11:32:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7263&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7263&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 4650 4650 John Davies AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 Davies, John No, only partly—only partly. The big thing, I suppose, for myself comes down to just rules, regulations, materiality and how things possibly could be run better. I know in various other industries of control—for example, I was governed by the Financial Conduct Authority—the rules tend to be very high level and quite vague in many respects, and tend to get interpreted in different ways, which is never good, but do end up taking people to the nth degree because everybody's terrified of breaking the rules. I was just wondering, the materiality of people who run their own small businesses, who have a very different and much closer control over what happens compared to large businesses, where the owners don't even exist on premises—. So, how much of a burden would you say could be taken off? And how much cost could be taken off the smaller abattoirs? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786575 205 En 2026-11-11T11:33:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7343&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7343&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Gosh, that's a big question. You're correct, I think some of the guidance perhaps is very overarching and it's difficult to—. It gets interpreted differently by different people. I think that, overall, to maintain standards across the sector, really the thing to get that to happen is to make sure that all the OVs have appropriate time for continuing professional development and things like that, so that they're all aware of new things that are coming into the system—new rules, new regulations, whatever—and how best to apply them in the situations where they're working. But, yes, like I said before, with the smaller businesses, they still have to meet these baseline standards for— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786581 206 En 2026-11-11T11:34:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7410&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7410&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 4650 4650 John Davies AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 Davies, John But— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786582 207 En 2026-11-11T11:34:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7411&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7411&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Sorry, carry on. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786263 208 En 2026-11-11T11:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7414&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7414&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 4650 4650 John Davies AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 Davies, John My point would be that, whilst you're looking for gold, you're looking for good management, you're looking for healthy working habits, good working habits, and that can be proven with smaller businesses in very different ways to the way that it can in big. It seems that, wherever I look, where there is a big national organisation making rules for businesses—that they don't always understand fully, because there's such a variety of types of business within any industry—the smaller local businesses tend to get consumed by rules that don't necessarily apply to them as much as they do to the bigger boys and big companies. You could actually look to achieve the same results with a lighter touch. Really, I suppose, I'm just hoping that you could say that, yes, that could be done.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786281 209 En 2026-11-11T11:36:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7486&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7486&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes, in theory, I don't see why we couldn't look at the overall regulations and see—. Ultimately, as long as the standards of animal welfare and disease surveillance are maintained, there are many ways you can achieve that, potentially. So, yes, I think we would be supportive of looking at different ways of working, different ways of applying the regulations, and supporting official veterinarians through that as well, so that they feel able to do their jobs and continue to— 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786291 210 En 2026-11-11T11:36:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7527&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7527&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul Are there any suggestions that you could put forward as to how that could be done, or which areas particularly would benefit from a look at that? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786299 211 En 2026-11-11T11:37:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7538&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7538&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 4650 4650 John Davies AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4650 Davies, John I confess I would probably have to take that away and speak to some of my colleagues within the Food Standards Agency, because I'm not so knowledgeable about the intricacies of the all the rules and regs. But, yes, certainly, it's something that we can come back to you with, if that would be useful.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786302 212 En 2026-11-11T11:37:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7557&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7557&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Thank you. That would be very useful. I know Niamh wanted to talk about workforce, and then I'll come to Andrew, if that's okay.   16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786303 213 En 2026-11-11T11:37:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7565&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7565&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Yes, thank you. In the evidence we've got—. Oh, sorry. Was it you first, Andrew?  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786304 214 En 2026-11-11T11:37:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7569&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7569&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James No, no. I think Andrew wanted—.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786664 215 En 2026-11-11T11:37:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7571&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7571&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Oh, go on, Andrew. Go on, take the floor. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786665 216 En 2026-11-11T11:37:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7571&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7571&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James No, you carry on. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786305 217 En 2026-11-11T11:37:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7572&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7572&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Sorry, if you're sure it's okay. Yes, sorry. I got mixed up there. In NFU's evidence, they said that further support is required to increase the local veterinary capacity. I was wondering if you agree with that. Do you think there are challenges that you're seeing when it comes to the recruitment and retaining of OVs? And yes, where is that skills gap happening? Is it more in the education sector? Is it more people who are qualified not wanting then to go into that field further on? Where are you? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786311 218 En 2026-11-11T11:38:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7604&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7604&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes, I think OV work is quite specialised. I know we just spoke, Andrew, about how any qualified vet could do it—it's true—but, at the moment, the way the system's set up, you choose your career path, and I think being an OV isn't something that everyone aspires to when they come out of university, necessarily. I think, historically, a lot of the OV roles and meat hygiene and things in public health has all been staffed on—. Or not all, but it's been quite heavily weighted to vets who've qualified overseas coming to work in this country, and, obviously, providing an absolutely amazing service. So, yes, I think there are things we can do to make it more appealing to veterinary graduates across the board, really. And in terms of, then, retention and distribution of OVs, it's about providing that supportive working environment, time for continuous professional development, career progression, potentially, if that's what people are interested in. It's similar to rural practices—attracting people to go and work in smaller rural abattoirs is quite difficult. And once you get them there, how do you keep them there? So, that's a challenge that's not just limited to the slaughter sector at all. It's across the board. And it's something that, as the BVA, we work really hard on trying to come up with solutions to the veterinary workforce problems that we have. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786418 219 En 2026-11-11T11:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7714&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7714&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786422 220 En 2026-11-11T11:40:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7715&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7715&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James David, did you want to—? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786424 221 En 2026-11-11T11:40:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7719&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7719&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12171 12171 David Mills AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 Mills, David Yes, I'm lost on this a little bit, because how often does a vet—? How often does he go to an abattoir? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786428 222 En 2026-11-11T11:40:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7729&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7729&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe There has to be an OV on site.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786430 223 En 2026-11-11T11:40:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7732&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7732&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12171 12171 David Mills AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 Mills, David On site at every time? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786433 224 En 2026-11-11T11:40:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7733&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7733&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Whenever there are animals. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786435 225 En 2026-11-11T11:40:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7735&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7735&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12171 12171 David Mills AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 Mills, David There's got to be an alternative to that. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786436 226 En 2026-11-11T11:40:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7737&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7737&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe You say this, but OVs provide such an important oversight. So, it's not just about identifying welfare non-compliances, because obviously animals arrive and they've come from all over the place—so, being able to pick up on welfare non-compliances when they arrive and when they're in the lairage—it's about the antemortem inspection, spotting signs of disease, but then it's also about the postmortem inspection, when we're looking at the carcasses, because, again, that's where you pick up, potentially, signs of disease that you haven't spotted before that point. And those are all really important, quite veterinary-specialised things that need doing. To give you an example, the first inkling that we had in 2001 of foot-and-mouth disease was reported from an abattoir. Somebody—she actually lectured me at university, she's a wonderful woman—she'd been working in that abattoir and she spotted these pigs that didn't look right.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786445 227 En 2026-11-11T11:41:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7808&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7808&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12171 12171 David Mills AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 Mills, David So every carcass is inspected? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786474 228 En 2026-11-11T11:41:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7810&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7810&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786446 229 En 2026-11-11T11:41:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7811&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7811&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12171 12171 David Mills AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12171 Mills, David Wow. I didn't realise. That's a huge cost. I've done a bit of deer stalking and shooting, and, I don't know, it just seems an incredible amount of work for something that's so fundamental and basic. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786448 230 En 2026-11-11T11:41:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7826&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7826&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe It is, but, like I said, we're protecting animal health and welfare and public health. These animals are going into the food chain, so it's a much bigger picture than just the OVs on the ground. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786449 231 En 2026-11-11T11:42:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7842&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7842&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Niamh. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786450 232 En 2026-11-11T11:42:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7843&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7843&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Yes, I just wanted to jump back quickly to the skills bit, if that's okay.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786451 233 En 2026-11-11T11:42:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7846&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7846&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Yes, that's fine.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786452 234 En 2026-11-11T11:42:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7848&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7848&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh With the skills shortage as well that you're seeing in this area—it's quite cross-portfolio, this question, I guess, but—I know that the Deputy Minister who's doing higher education is doing a big piece on a skills audit. I was wondering if you're feeding into that work that's happening there, because there seems to be quite a gap in the field that you represent. And also, with the new school of veterinary sciences at Aberystwyth as well, are you seeing that as a success? Because it's the only one in Wales, isn't it, I think. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786454 235 En 2026-11-11T11:42:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7880&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7880&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe It is.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786455 236 En 2026-11-11T11:42:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7881&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7881&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh So is that helping things? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786456 237 En 2026-11-11T11:42:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7882&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7882&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe I hope so. So, yes, the vet school in Aberystwyth is brilliant, and we're so thrilled that their first cohort of students graduated this summer just gone, and I think the majority of them have stayed in Wales. They did a quick straw poll of the graduates this year, and something like 60 per cent of them said that they had jobs lined up in Wales, which is so good for the sector in general. I don't have any greater insight into where they've gone to work or what they've gone to do, but, like I said, generally speaking, going into OV work—. So, OVs—. I should clarify actually: an official veterinarian covers a wealth of things. The TB testing that farm vets do comes under the umbrella of being an OV. But, yes, official veterinarians in abattoirs doing the meat hygiene stuff, it is quite a niche thing. And like I said, it's not something that many UK graduates tend to gravitate towards. But, yes, like I said, I think there's work to do in that space to make it seem like more of an option. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786460 238 En 2026-11-11T11:44:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7965&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7965&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12143 12143 Niamh Salkeld AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12143 Salkeld, Niamh Are you feeding into the skills audit, then? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786462 239 En 2026-11-11T11:44:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7967&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7967&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe I'm not aware that we are, but, if we're not, we should be, absolutely. I can double-check. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786464 240 En 2026-11-11T11:44:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7974&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7974&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Do you think there are enough OVs in Wales to meet the requirements that we have? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786465 241 En 2026-11-11T11:44:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=7978&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=7978&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe I think at the minute, yes, but I don't have total numbers off the top of my head. So I might be speaking out of turn. But I think, generally speaking, yes, OV capacity is all right. Like I said, it's more getting the provision and retention in the more rural areas and the smaller abattoirs and things like that—that's the challenge, rather than the actual numbers of people. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786466 242 En 2026-11-11T11:44:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8013&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8013&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Okay. I'll bring Andrew in, and then Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786103 243 En 2026-11-11T11:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8014&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8014&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786104 244 En 2026-11-11T11:45:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8015&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8015&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. I appreciate the role of the official veterinary surgeon at an abattoir and the important role that they play in animal welfare and public health, but just completely blue-sky thinking—and I don't know whether this would fly or not—in the TB schemes, obviously, you used to have to be—. A veterinary surgeon used to have to do all the testing. They then brought in the lay testers to do that. Is there an ability to bring lay inspectors in, up to a certain level of training, which, obviously, wouldn't incur the costs, but would be sufficiently trained up to do the basic type of inspection? And then, if, obviously, something was suspected, they could call in a veterinary surgeon to take it on board, then, they could. Because that would be one way of lowering the cost, if that was applicable. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786121 245 En 2026-11-11T11:45:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8068&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8068&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe I think there's potentially scope for something like that, maybe, but my concern would be—. TB testing, whilst it's very important, it isn't technically challenging particularly. I don't disagree with having approved TB testers, because it's quite a simple task—not wishing to offend anybody, because I spent many years TB testing and I actually really enjoyed it. But, yes, I think, maybe for some of the welfare things, you could have non-vets assessing the welfare of animals on arrival and things. But I genuinely think, if we're talking about disease surveillance, that's a lot of responsibility to put on somebody who doesn't have a veterinary degree, in expecting them to pick up some of these subtle clinical signs or being able to interpret what they're seeing and understand the significance of it or not. There are lots of diseases that can present in similar ways, and some of them are totally irrelevant and some of them are very, very important. I don't know if it would be fair or appropriate to put that on a non-vet. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786122 246 En 2026-11-11T11:47:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8154&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8154&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. But it would be doable, if a robust training programme and accreditation came into being. Because it's a bit like in a hospital—you have the consultant supported by the registrar, supported by the junior doctors, as they used to be called. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786123 247 En 2026-11-11T11:47:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8176&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8176&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe But they all have medical degrees, I suppose is what I'm saying. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786124 248 En 2026-11-11T11:47:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8181&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8181&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. They have a certain degree of training to a point, and then experience kicks in. As I say, I'm not sure whether it would fly or not, but it's a way of reducing the costs. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786125 249 En 2026-11-11T11:47:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8189&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8189&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe I don't think we'd be averse to exploring that a little bit and looking at the feasibility of it as a concept. But, yes, I don't know that it would necessarily solve the problem. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786738 250 En 2026-11-11T11:48:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8210&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8210&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 143 143 Andrew R.T. Davies AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=143 Davies, Andrew R.T. Okay. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786126 251 En 2026-11-11T11:48:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8211&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8211&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Paul wanted to touch on welfare, I think. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786127 252 En 2026-11-11T11:48:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8214&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8214&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul Yes. One of the reasons we're having this inquiry is because there are a reduced number of abattoirs across Wales and that means that animals have to travel further to be slaughtered. In terms of animal welfare particularly, but, in that whole process, what's your role there? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786128 253 En 2026-11-11T11:48:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8238&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8238&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe So, obviously, like I said, the OVs will assess welfare on arrival at the abattoir. I think it's really important to keep welfare from farm through transport to the abattoir to the point of killing as one unit. The animals need to be fit to be loaded. They need to be transported appropriately—whether that's the right vehicle, sufficient bedding, minimal stress loading, unloading, and things like that. The OV really is the only veterinary point of contact in that whole process to be able to identify non-compliances and flag it. I think the majority of the more serious welfare non-compliances actually stem from farming and transport. They're not really abattoir specific. But the OVs in the abattoirs are really well placed to spot them and flag them to the appropriate people for investigation. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786129 254 En 2026-11-11T11:49:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8310&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8310&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul So, as the number of abattoirs in Wales has decreased, have you been monitoring the level to which those animals are not arriving in a good condition? Is there data on that? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786525 255 En 2026-11-11T11:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8614&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8614&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786485 256 En 2026-11-11T11:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8314&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8314&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786490 257 En 2026-11-11T11:50:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8327&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8327&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe There is. The Food Standards Agency publishes quarterly animal welfare enforcement non-compliance data for England and Wales. It varies. I think the 2023-24 report reported a reduction in animal welfare non-compliances, but I haven't got any data more recently than that. I think the length of journey obviously has a role to play in animal welfare, but it's not the single thing that we worry about the most when we're talking about animal welfare as a whole. So, a longer journey, but in an appropriate vehicle with a careful driver and enough water and sufficient stops and things like that, can be better for animal welfare than a shorter journey rammed in the back of an inappropriate vehicle and hoofed out at the other end without much consideration for stress and things like that. So, yes, length of journey is important, but it's not the be-all and end-all. Actually, we need to consider the whole farm-to-abattoir process as one when we look at welfare, I think. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786498 258 En 2026-11-11T11:51:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8414&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8414&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul Sorry, can I—? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786499 259 En 2026-11-11T11:51:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8415&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8415&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Yes, carry on, Paul. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786500 260 En 2026-11-11T11:51:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8418&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8418&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul So, the animals are arriving at the abattoir, and there always has to be, as we've heard, a vet there. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786501 261 En 2026-11-11T11:51:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8427&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8427&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786502 262 En 2026-11-11T11:51:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8428&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8428&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul The very small abattoirs always have to have a vet. The very big ones, do they have more than one, or do they—? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786504 263 En 2026-11-11T11:52:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8435&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8435&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe I suppose it depends—. Yes, depending on how many wagons were arriving and how many animals were being unloaded, you might need more than one. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786508 264 En 2026-11-11T11:52:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8445&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8445&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul My gut feeling is that, in the bigger abattoirs, the vet is going to have a harder job keeping an eye on throughput than in a smaller abattoir. Is that fair? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786511 265 En 2026-11-11T11:52:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8452&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8452&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Probably, yes. I think that's probably a fair statement. Again, it comes down to training and being able to, in a group of sheep as they come off the back of a wagon, pick out the lame one, pick out the one that doesn't quite look right, the one that's hanging at the back because it actually isn't very well or whatever. They're those little things that, like I said, probably come down to veterinary judgment more than a layperson. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786514 266 En 2026-11-11T11:52:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8492&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8492&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul When you find the one that's not very well, or the one that's got a broken limb or something like that, do you issue advice, or—? How does that work? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786519 267 En 2026-11-11T11:53:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8502&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8502&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Depending on the finding, the animals are isolated from the others. They can be dispatched in the lairage, if they're not fit to go for slaughter, and killed as soon as possible on welfare grounds. Then, yes, there is a process for establishing where that welfare compromise happened. Was it in transport? Was it on the farm of origin? Has it happened in the lairage? Animals do sometimes break a leg in the lairage; it's not unheard of. So, working out where that happened, and then there are processes in place to feed that back, and it gets investigated if necessary and non-compliances are followed up quite robustly, I think. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786521 268 En 2026-11-11T11:54:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8555&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8555&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul Okay, thank you. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786522 269 En 2026-11-11T11:54:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8556&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8556&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Can I just follow up on—excuse my ignorance a little bit here—the sort of communication that happens between trading standards, the Animal and Plant Health Agency and the OVs, for example? Because if we look at collection centres, they're inspected on the way in normally by local trading standards officers, for example, who will say an animal is deemed fit to be sold at a collection centre, and that animal is then loaded onto a lorry, which is also sometimes watched by someone from trading standards or APHA. Say there's an issue in transit, who does that fall back on then, as such? I'm just interested in how far back down the chain you look? It's something I'm actually not aware of, actually where that responsibility sits. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786523 270 En 2026-11-11T11:54:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8605&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8605&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe It all comes under the Welfare of Animals (Transport) (Wales) Order—I think it's 2007. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786524 271 En 2026-11-11T11:54:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8611&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8611&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Yes, it is 2007. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786618 272 En 2026-11-11T11:59:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8913&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8913&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786560 273 En 2026-11-11T11:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8614&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8614&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe It's the farmer's responsibility to make sure the animals are fit to be transported at the point of loading, and I believe it's the haulier's responsibility to then get them there in one piece. But, yes, I would have to go and read that legislation.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786566 274 En 2026-11-11T11:55:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8633&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8633&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James I'm just interested—in terms of all the paperwork, the stress and perhaps OVs as well, if there is an issue like that, how much work is it? Do they have to track back on top of the additional work that they're doing there—I can't get my words out today; I need to put my teeth back in—the piece of work they're doing there as part of the OV rules and regulations? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786567 275 En 2026-11-11T11:55:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8654&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8654&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes. So, every consignment of animals arrives with the food chain information paperwork, or should do. So, that tells you where they've come from, how far they've travelled et cetera, how many there should be, and a declaration that they were fit at the point of loading or whatever. So, yes, in terms of being able to identify where those animals have come from and how to follow that welfare concern up, the OV obviously documents it, and then it gets sent to trading standards and to Animal and Plant Health Agency for follow-up. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786568 276 En 2026-11-11T11:56:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8694&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8694&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. Are there any further questions, or—? 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786591 277 En 2026-11-11T11:56:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8697&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8697&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12176 12176 Paul Rock AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12176 Rock, Paul No, no. That's fine.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786594 278 En 2026-11-11T11:56:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8699&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8699&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna I had one, but slightly going around things. Is it all right to—?   16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786595 279 En 2026-11-11T11:56:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8704&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8704&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James You carry on. We've got time, yes.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786597 280 En 2026-11-11T11:56:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8706&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8706&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Okay. Brilliant. The first question was—you've heard that we've been concerned about the decreasing number of abattoirs in Wales, including some of the larger ones, and the potential for increasing numbers of stock going over to England. Are there any concerns in terms of disease and diseases spreading with having more and more people going to the same place, or animals going to the same place, rather than dotted around? Is it a higher risk or not, really?  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786601 281 En 2026-11-11T11:57:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8734&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8734&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Assuming everyone follows the cleaning and disinfection protocols and the biosecurity measures that should be in place it shouldn't pose too much of a problem. That said, if we had a situation where we suspected foot and mouth disease or something like that, the amount of tracing that we would have to do—. If the animal was identified in an abattoir, the amount of kind of crossover and contacts and potential for disease spread from that one point would be much bigger. I think, probably, the greater issue with having fewer, larger abattoirs is it just reduces our opportunities for disease surveillance. Because, like we've touched on, there are much larger numbers of animals coming through, each OV probably has less time to spend looking at the animals. So then, potentially, you miss something. It's a balance, I think. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786611 282 En 2026-11-11T11:58:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8803&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8803&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna I had another final question then, which is about the support. I think the FSA is suggesting reviewing the meat charging discount regime and the support model there. So, at the moment there seem to be cut-off points where you're a small—. You've got a definition for your small abattoir, I'm just reading here, of up to 1,000 animals a year, and then, suddenly, it sounds like there's a cliff edge, where, if you go over that, you suddenly lose your 90 per cent discounting and it just becomes financially unviable. But if we want to be able to see smaller abattoirs maybe become medium-sized, be able to process the animals that we have here—. It seems like they're suggesting some tapering, and I was wondering if you had any views on that.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786613 283 En 2026-11-11T11:58:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8849&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8849&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes. Like I said before, I think taking into consideration the economics of small, medium and large enterprises, there has to be a charging model that doesn't make the smaller and medium-sized abattoirs unviable, and that's not to say that they should be subsidised and not have to maintain the same level of animal health and welfare and public health and what have you. But, yes, I think there has to be a middle ground, because, like you said, it becomes unviable if the cost of meeting all the regulation and legislative requirements just skyrockets and paying for OVs suddenly becomes very, very expensive. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786614 284 En 2026-11-11T11:59:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8904&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8904&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna Yes. We need to meet the standards, that's the kind of baseline. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786615 285 En 2026-11-11T11:59:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8907&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8907&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786616 286 En 2026-11-11T11:59:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8908&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8908&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12178 12178 Anna Nicholl AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12178 Nicholl, Anna But we need to find some way around regulations and charging that makes it financially viable for abbatoirs. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786617 287 En 2026-11-11T11:59:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8912&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8912&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe Yes.  16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786587 288 En 2026-11-11T12:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8914&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8914&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786602 289 Cy 2026-11-11T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=-34286&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=-34286&l=en 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786588 290 En 2026-11-11T12:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8914&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8914&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Lovely. Diolch. Diolch yn fawr, Members. Can I thank you very much for your evidence to us this morning, or we're now moving into the afternoon, just gone? Thank you very much. A Record of Proceedings will be sent to you, the transcript, so you can check that for accuracy. But once again, thank you, and thank you for the work that all the OVs do across Wales, because they do do a job in actually making sure that our product is world recognised as well for the high animal welfare standards it's produced to, so thank you very much. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786590 291 En 2026-11-11T12:00:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8941&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8941&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 12565 Phoebe McCarter McCarter, Phoebe They do. Lovely. Diolch yn fawr. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786782 292 En 2026-11-11T12:00:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8942&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8942&l=cy 261111-4 4. Dyfodol lladd-dai yng Nghymru - sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda'r Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain 4. The future of Welsh abattoirs - evidence session with the British Veterinary Association C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James Diolch. Thank you. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786592 293 En 2026-11-11T12:00:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8944&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8944&l=cy 261111-5 5. Papurau i'w nodi 5. Papers to note C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James We now move on, Members, to item No. 5, which is papers to note. They've been circulated. Are Members content with the papers? They are. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786605 294 Cy 261111-6 6. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 17.42 (vi) a (ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod 6. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting I Cynnig: bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) a (ix). Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix). 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786606 295 Cy 261111-6 6. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 17.42 (vi) a (ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod 6. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting I Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786607 296 En 2026-11-11T12:00:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16375?startPos=8952&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16375?startPos=8952&l=cy 261111-6 6. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 17.42 (vi) a (ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod 6. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting C 8585 8585 James Evans AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8585 Evans, James So, before we move into private session, I just need to read out a set of wording to make sure I don't get into trouble with the standards commissioner. Before we move into private, I'd like to note that, under item 8, we'll be noting the process and the timeline for the pre-appointment hearing that is scheduled to take place on 2 December 2026 with the Welsh Government's preferred candidate for the chair of the Office of Environmental Governance Wales. As I'm involved in the recruitment for that post, I'll be recusing myself from the session on 2 December, and a temporary Chair will be elected. Andrew R.T. Davies has agreed to chair that meeting. As mentioned, the purpose of today's item is to note the process and the pre-appointment hearing. I will not be making any views further than that. So, in accordance then—. If I can find the right thing, we'll move into private. Where has it gone? There's proper terminology, I've lost it. If I get it wrong, I'll be reported again. So, there we are. If Members are happy, I'd like to move us, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii)—no, that's the wrong one. Where are we going now? I apologise, Members, I should know this by now. There we are; it is at the top. I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Members are content. We'll now proceed in private. Thank you. 16375 7 2026-11-11T09:31:30 786608 297 Cy 261111-6 6. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 17.42 (vi) a (ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod 6. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting I Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 12:02. Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 12:02.