16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772644 0 En 2026-09-28T13:33:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=197&l=en 260928-0 C 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772642 1 En 2026-09-28T13:33:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=197&l=en 260928-0 C 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772588 2 Cy 260928-0 I The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.  16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772589 3 Cy 260928-0 I The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The meeting began at 13:30. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772591 4 En 2026-09-28T13:30:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=4&l=en 260928-1 1. Motion to elect a temporary Chair under Standing Order 17.22 for this meeting C 126 Sarah Sargent Sargent, Sarah Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to today's meeting of the Legislation Committee. Under Standing Order 17.2P(v), the position of Chair of a committee becomes vacant when the Member concerned joins or leaves a political group. With Sarah Cooper-Lesadd MS having left the Reform UK group and joining the Plaid Cymru group, the position of Chair of the Legislation Committee is now vacant. The first item of today's agenda is therefore the election of a temporary Chair for today's meeting. Under Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772611 5 En 2026-09-28T13:30:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=36&l=en 260928-1 1. Motion to elect a temporary Chair under Standing Order 17.22 for this meeting C 4787 4787 Peter Fox https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787 Fox, Peter Can I nominate Peredur Owen Griffiths, please? 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772614 6 En 2026-09-28T13:30:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=40&l=en 260928-1 1. Motion to elect a temporary Chair under Standing Order 17.22 for this meeting C 126 Sarah Sargent Sargent, Sarah Thank you, Peter. Are there any other nominations? I see that there are none. I therefore propose that Peredur Owen Griffiths is appointed temporary Chair of the committee for today's meeting. Are there any objections? I see that there are none. I therefore invite Peredur to take the chair. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772785 7 Cy 260928-1 1. Motion to elect a temporary Chair under Standing Order 17.22 for this meeting I Peredur Owen Griffiths was appointed temporary Chair. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772617 8 Cy 2026-09-28T13:31:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=71&l=en 260928-1 1. Motion to elect a temporary Chair under Standing Order 17.22 for this meeting C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen Thank you very much. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772620 9 Cy 2026-09-28T13:31:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=73&l=en 260928-2 2. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen Welcome to this meeting of the committee.  16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772622 10 En 2026-09-28T13:31:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=78&l=en 260928-2 2. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen It's good to be with you, and I'm joined by everybody online, so it's good to see you all. We have had apologies from Huw Thomas, he's not able to join us today, but we'll note that for the record and ask for any declarations of any interests that we need to record. I don't see any, so that's great. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772625 11 Cy 2026-09-28T13:31:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=104&l=en 260928-2 2. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen Of course, this meeting is broadcast live on Senedd.tv and will be available in both English and Welsh. So, there is simultaneous translation available from Welsh to English if that's needed. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772628 12 En 2026-09-28T13:32:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=119&l=en 260928-3 3. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen That takes us on to item 3. Item 3 is a standing agenda item, but there are no instruments to consider under this item today. So, that's just for us to move on, therefore, to item 4. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772636 13 En 2026-09-28T13:32:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=139&l=en 260928-4 4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen Item 4 is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 and 21.3. The first one today is item 4.1, SL(7)010, the Child Minding and Day Care Exceptions (Revocation and Transitional Provision) (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2026. That's a mouthful. So, this Order revokes and replaces the Child Minding and Day Care Exceptions (Wales) Order 2010, sets out expectations for what constitutes child minding and day care for children and comes into force on 1 April 2027. The Order is subject to the Senedd approval procedure, and Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. So, I can ask Kate to take us through that. Diolch, Kate. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772639 14 En 2026-09-28T13:33:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=196&l=en 260928-4 4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 C 9662 Kate Rabaiotti Rabaiotti, Kate The technical reporting point is reported under Standing Order 21.2(v) as a matter that requires further explanation from the Welsh Government. It notes an inconsistency between the preamble to the Order and the explanatory memorandum in relation to the powers relied on to make the Order. We've therefore asked Welsh Government to clarify precisely which powers are being relied on by the Welsh Ministers. We're just waiting for their response. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772643 15 En 2026-09-28T13:33:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=219&l=en 260928-4 4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen Okay, thank you. Any comments from anybody or are we happy to note that report—so, happy to agree that report and move on? I don't see any hands up. Great. Thank you. So, the next item is 4.2. This is the Local Authorities (Annual Sufficiency Plans) (Wales) Regulations 2026, another draft report available for us. These regulations are laid under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 as amended by the Health and Social Care (Wales) Act 2025. Under the amended 2014 Act, local authorities must take all reasonable steps to provide looked-after children with accommodation that meets certain criteria. Local authorities must prepare and publish annual sufficiency plans, setting out steps they will take to do so. The regulations prescribe the form of and additional information to be included in these annual sufficiency plans. The regulations are subject to the Senedd annulment procedure. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point, and I'll hand over to Kate to take us through that. Diolch.  16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772707 16 En 2026-09-28T13:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=293&l=en 260928-4 4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 C 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772710 17 En 2026-09-28T13:35:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=300&l=en 260928-4 4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 C 9662 Kate Rabaiotti Rabaiotti, Kate The technical reporting point, again, is raised under Standing Order 21.2(v) as a matter that requires further explanation. It asks Welsh Government to explain an apparent inconsistency in cross-referencing in the definition of 'annual sufficiency plan' in regulation 2(1), and, again, we're waiting for them to respond to that point. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772713 18 En 2026-09-28T13:35:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=319&l=en 260928-4 4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen Okay, thank you. So, we'll wait for that response to come in. Any comments from anybody on that? I don't see any. So, thank you very much, Kate.  16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772716 19 En 2026-09-28T13:35:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=331&l=en 260928-5 5. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen So, we'll therefore move on to item 5, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.34 previously considered. So, we've seen these before, but we've had updates to them.  So, item 5.1 is the School Funding, Budget Statements and Outturn Statements (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2026. We have a report and a Welsh Government response. We considered these regulations in our meeting on 14 September, and now we've received the Welsh Government response. As a reminder, these regulations make provision for the funding of maintained schools in Wales, and establish the financial framework for local authorities and schools.  Kate, would you like to take us through the Welsh Government response, please? 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772719 20 En 2026-09-28T13:36:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=383&l=en 260928-5 5. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered C 9662 Kate Rabaiotti Rabaiotti, Kate Diolch. We requested a response for 12 technical reporting points. In relation to the eight points that identified apparent inconsistencies between the Welsh and English language texts, two of these will be addressed via a correction slip, and the other six will be corrected when the regulations are next amended. The other four technical points sought further explanation from the Government in relation to various matters. One of these issues requires correction, which will be addressed when the regulations are next amended, and, for the other three, the Welsh Government has provided its response. Some of the responses include a statement that the approach taken reflects established drafting. While this is obviously a relevant consideration for the Government, Members may just want to note, as a point of principle, that established drafting approaches may still be capable of being improved upon, particularly where the committee has identified an apparent lack of clarity in the drafting. However, in this case, Senedd Legal Services has no further comments on the Welsh Government's response. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772721 21 En 2026-09-28T13:37:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=441&l=en 260928-5 5. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen Okay. Thank you very much. Any comments from Members? No, nothing. So, are we happy to—? We'll note the Government's response to that and move forward to item 5.2. Item 5.2 is the Building etc. (Amendment) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These start on our pack page 14. We considered these regulations, again, on 14 September, and we've now received a response to these as well from the Welsh Government. These regulations make corrections in response to reports about building safety regulations made by our predecessor committee in the sixth Senedd. Kate, would you take us through the Government response, please? 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772723 22 En 2026-09-28T13:38:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=490&l=en 260928-5 5. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered C 9662 Kate Rabaiotti Rabaiotti, Kate The Welsh Government's response provides further explanation, as requested, in relation to seven of the nine technical reporting points. And in response to the two reporting points noting apparent differences in meaning between the Welsh and English texts, Welsh Government confirms that, in both cases, the English text is correct. Both of these errors will be corrected via a correction slip.  Two of the merits reporting points also requested a response. To address the inconsistency in the explanatory memorandum, Welsh Government has withdrawn and replaced it. The other merits point asked about reporting points raised by the sixth Senedd's Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee that were not being addressed by this instrument. In response, Welsh Government confirms that it did not consider that the other matters raised required correction via amendments. While that's a matter for the Welsh Government, it might still be helpful if any explanatory memorandum to an instrument addressing committee reporting points would make it very clear which points are being addressed and which are not, because this would obviously increase transparency and accessibility around the correction of subordinate legislation. As this is obviously a broader issue than just in relation to these regulations, Members may wish to pursue this in future correspondence with the Counsel General. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772727 23 En 2026-09-28T13:39:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=559&l=en 260928-5 5. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen I think we'll keep track of that point in particular as we go forward with this committee's work, but any other comments from any Members? No. That's fine. So, we'll note the Government's response to that item.  16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772731 24 En 2026-09-28T13:39:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=579&l=en 260928-6 6. Papers to note C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen That brings us, then, on to papers to note. That's item 6. So, we have letters here to go—outgoing correspondence—6.1, 6.2, 6.3, 6.3a, 6.4 and 6.4a. These items are the outgoing letters that the committee signed off last week, so they have gone. Are we happy to note those? Yes, happy to note. I'm seeing nods, so that's great. Then papers received, which are items 6.5, 6.5a, 6.6 and 6.6a. These are papers that we've received since the last committee meeting. Does anybody have any comments to make on those? I don't see any comments, so we'll note those papers. Great, thank you very much. We have had one other item arrive late today that will be reflected in papers next week to do with the legislative consent motion on— 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772508 25 En 2026-09-28T13:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=593&l=en 260928-6 6. Papers to note C 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772509 26 En 2026-09-28T13:41:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=654&l=en 260928-6 6. Papers to note C 126 Sarah Sargent Sargent, Sarah Cyber security. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772510 27 En 2026-09-28T13:41:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=655&l=en 260928-6 6. Papers to note C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen —cyber security. So, we'll, obviously, note that next week, but we'll look at that when we come to items later to look at that. So, that's good to know. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772512 28 Cy 260928-7 7. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix). 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772513 29 Cy 260928-7 7. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion moved. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772514 30 En 2026-09-28T13:41:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16255?startPos=667&l=en 260928-7 7. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen So, we'll now move to item 7, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix). I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the rest of today's meeting. Do Members all agree? I see that everybody agrees. Thank you very much. So, we will now go into private. 16255 7 2026-09-28T13:30:11 772515 31 Cy 260928-7 7. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 13:41.