16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771138 0 En 2026-09-23T09:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=50&l=en 260923-0 C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771125 1 Cy 260923-0 I The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771126 2 Cy 260923-0 I The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The meeting began at 09:29. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771128 3 Cy 2026-09-23T09:29:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6&l=en 260923-1 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Good morning, everyone. Welcome. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771130 4 En 2026-09-23T09:29:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=8&l=en 260923-1 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Good morning and welcome to the Equality, Human Rights and Social Justice Committee. The public items for this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv. The meeting is bilingual, with simultaneous translation available from Welsh to English. Just before we begin, just to let everyone know that Anthony Slaughter has sent his apologies as he can't make it today. Other than that, there have been no substitutions. Before we begin, are there any declarations of interest from Members at all? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771132 5 En 2026-09-23T09:29:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=41&l=en 260923-1 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed I used to work in the third sector. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771133 6 En 2026-09-23T09:29:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=43&l=en 260923-1 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Yes, thank you. That's been noted. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771134 7 En 2026-09-23T09:29:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=46&l=en 260923-1 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Yes, the same for me. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771137 8 En 2026-09-23T09:29:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=47&l=en 260923-1 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. Anything else? No. Okay. Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771218 9 En 2026-09-23T09:30:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=52&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub I'm pleased to welcome the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice, Sioned Williams, and her supporting officials. Today's session marks the committee's first general scrutiny session with the Minister and provides an opportunity for Members to discuss the Welsh Government's priorities, challenges and objectives within the portfolio. We're very grateful for the information provided in advance, but before we get into the questions, would you mind introducing yourselves for the committee? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771140 10 En 2026-09-23T09:30:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=82&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality Williams, Sioned Well, you've already introduced me— 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771139 11 Cy 2026-09-23T09:30:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=84&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned —but I'll ask my officials to introduce themselves, starting over here, please. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771142 12 En 2026-09-23T09:30:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=89&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12475 Mike Conolly Conolly, Mike Mike Connolly, deputy director of the community safety division. Good morning. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771143 13 En 2026-09-23T09:30:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=93&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 2280 Andrew Charles Charles, Andrew Andrew Charles, deputy director of the cohesive communities division. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771144 14 En 2026-09-23T09:30:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=97&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 1076 Amelia John John, Amelia Amelia John. Bore da. I am director of communities and social justice. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771145 15 En 2026-09-23T09:30:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=102&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 3863 Claire Germain Germain, Claire Bore da. Claire Germain, deputy director of tackling poverty. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771146 16 En 2026-09-23T09:30:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=108&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 10538 Lorna Hall Hall, Lorna Lorna Hall, deputy director of equalities. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771147 17 En 2026-09-23T09:31:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=111&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you, that's great. So, there are several topics that we'll be covering today. We'll start with child poverty first. For the first question, I wondered if you could give some insight into the progress when it comes to the new child poverty strategy and the key ways in which the Deputy First Minister envisaged how it will be different from previous Welsh Government strategies as well. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771148 18 Cy 2026-09-23T09:31:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=137&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much, and I welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee this morning. I think there is very important work to be done within this portfolio. So, to speak specifically about child poverty, as somebody who used to be a member of this committee, I know that some Members will remember our scrutiny of the draft child poverty strategy of the previous Government, and then also our analysis and scrutiny of the current strategy. I'm very clear that that strategy isn't fit for purpose, if we truly are to see change, the change that we need to see in terms of poverty rates amongst children, and more importantly, perhaps, the impact of that poverty on our youngest generations and on the future of our nation, ultimately. So, I am already working on the new strategy. I am drawing upon the evidence that was gathered to draw up the previous strategy, and a lot of the evidence that this committee's predecessor committee heard in that area. So, evidence from families, evidence from organisations, from stakeholders and others, and from families over the past four years as the previous strategy was formulated, to ensure that the new strategy focuses very closely on what is important to them, and the kind of support that could assist them as they feel the impacts of poverty, but also to see how we can support them to be lifted out of poverty. So, with regard to the work that I've done, I've met with the external tackling poverty group, which includes organisations such as Children in Wales, Save the Children Wales, the Child Poverty Action Group, Citizens Advice, and so on. And the experts, the policy experts, are working to help us to ensure that the new strategy and the targets—I feel very strongly that we need targets and milestones along the journey—to ensure that they are fit for purpose. So, that work is being done. I hope to consult, then, on the new strategy and the targets early in the new year. We've been very clear, as a Government, in terms of what our priorities are in order to target our efforts at those policies that will have the greatest impact on people in Wales, and children living in poverty in particular. So, of course, that strategy will help us to focus our work in that regard. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771165 19 En 2026-09-23T09:34:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=324&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Diolch. Jane Dodds. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771168 20 Cy 2026-09-23T09:34:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=326&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Thank you very much. Good morning, Minister. It's good to see you. I want to ask, if that's all right, you've talked about targets and I also asked the First Minister yesterday about targets. So, can I just understand precisely what steps you will have to take? You're on the other side now, so you understand more about it. To my mind, I think that the child poverty level in Wales is 30 per cent, so is it a case of simply saying that we want to reduce it to 25 per cent or whatever? I just want to understand what the steps are exactly. Because we were looking at the Government in Scotland, and they just took 10 months to develop their targets. So, I just want to understand the exact steps and the timeline, if you have any idea about that, and then we will come back to that. Thank you very much. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771129 21 Cy 2026-09-23T09:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=350&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771131 22 Cy 2026-09-23T09:35:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=382&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much for the question and I know of your interest, Jane Dodds, in this matter and I agree with the need for targets, and you know that. So, we are currently developing these targets. There are a number of dimensions to poverty, and poverty is felt in different ways, so we want to ensure that we consider that as we develop the targets. As I said, the experts are engaging with us on that, in terms of what they think the most meaningful targets would be. Because, yes, you could take one poverty measure and decrease it by 5 per cent, say, and then you would expect that that would have an impact, but if that isn't felt, perhaps, by the families in terms of the impact in their daily lives, is that what we want to focus on? So, we are discussing all of these things at the moment. We have also been having a conversation across Cabinet on this. So, we've established a cross-Cabinet taskforce—the first to be established is the one on child poverty—and I chaired that on Monday. That was part of our discussions: what kind of targets would be most effective? Because I think it's important for the committee to understand and to acknowledge, perhaps, that there are different ways of measuring poverty. You can think about relative income poverty. That is something that is used very broadly, and of course it's important, but that's not the only measure. We also consider measures that evaluate hardship, things such as material deprivation. That's something that the UK Government has been looking at as they develop their child poverty strategy. And then, of course, there is deep material poverty, rather—. I'm also in favour of thinking about wider evidence, that is, as I was saying, how things are felt. I remember reading reports, for example, by organisations such as the Bevan Foundation, that talked about the fact that there isn't enough money in children's pockets, for example, to be able to go to the theatre or that they can't go to a friend's birthday party because they don't have the money to buy a birthday present. So, there are qualitative ways as well, I think, of measuring poverty. So, I think we have to recognise that there isn't one individual measure that's going to capture in its entirety families' and children's experiences of poverty. But, of course, I would say and acknowledge as well that we do need to set ambitious targets and, very importantly, those milestones along the way, to maintain that focus on our actions to ensure that they—. And, as I said, that's across Government, to ensure that we focus our policies and that we know what works and what doesn't work. And, of course, we are bringing forward some new measures, such as expanding the provision of free school meals, such as ensuring that we improve the way that Welsh benefits reach families, such as the Cynnal pilot, for example. So, we want to ensure that we can measure the impacts of those initiatives as well. So, as I said, we are doing this work. I would like to hear the view of the committee on that, if that's something that you would want to look at in terms of what targets you believe would be most effective and appropriate. But, as I said, I do expect to consult on the new strategy and on the targets, of course, early on next year. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771149 23 Cy 2026-09-23T09:39:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=633&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Thank you very much. I just have one other brief question, if that's okay. You talked about the steps and the milestones, in your mind, do you have an idea of when we'll be in a situation when we will know what those look like? And I hope I know the answer to this: are you in touch with other Governments, such as the Scottish Government—and we have also heard from Finland and other places—and are you looking at what they've done and how to keep an eye on countries such as ours, which are small, for example? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771141 24 Cy 2026-09-23T09:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=650&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771173 25 Cy 2026-09-23T09:40:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=672&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Yes, certainly. Obviously, as we've discussed in this committee in the past, there are differences in terms of powers. We know, for example, that one of the most powerful levers that would be able to lift families out of poverty is the welfare system. We know that the welfare system as it currently stands isn't fit for purpose, but we don't have those powers. But, we do think that, within the powers that we currently have, there are things that we can do. So, there are levers that are within our powers. We are certainly going to look at the international picture to see what works. Cynnal is a perfect example, where, of course, we've seen how that has made a difference in Scotland. We don't have the power to roll that out in the same way as has been done in Scotland, but we hope that, through the pilot that we'll be holding and then by ensuring that we evaluate the impact that that has made, that that will be able to show the way forward for us in terms of how we can tackle poverty and how the targets could reflect the kinds of actions that we can take. But, certainly, officials are engaging with other nations and regions. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771191 26 Cy 2026-09-23T09:41:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=744&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Thank you. I have one other question. When will you be able to return to the committee or when will we be able to see when exactly next year you will be putting forward the strategy and targets? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771201 27 Cy 2026-09-23T09:41:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=758&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned As I said, because of the engagement work that's currently under way and the refining process for the strategy, we will be able to bring forward the new strategy and circulate that for consultation early on next year, in 2027. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771207 28 Cy 2026-09-23T09:42:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=776&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Thank you, Chair.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771205 29 En 2026-09-23T09:42:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=777&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Diolch. I've got Sarah and then Laura.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771206 30 En 2026-09-23T09:42:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=780&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thank you, Minister. Two questions. Firstly, I wanted to ask not only how the targets are measurable—I think you've given us a lot on that—but what consideration have you given as to how these targets will tackle the underlying causes of poverty and are not just what we've heard previously of sticking plasters for short-term results? I'd also like to ask, on the Cynnal payments specifically, could you tell us a bit more about how the UK Government are co-operating on the roll-out of that Cynnal pilot? Diolch. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771212 31 Cy 2026-09-23T09:42:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=809&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you. They're really important points, because I think—. This Government is determined that we aren't going to pursue a course of providing solutions that are just going to tackle the fact that a third of our children are in poverty. We have to ensure that we create resilience, and of course, again, this is a cross-Government issue, as it's related to the economy, it's related to health, it's related to education, it's related to the skills agenda. So, it is something—and more. It's across the food strategy as well in terms of nutritious food. It's a cross-Government issue, and that's why I've convened and I chair the Cabinet group, the cross-Cabinet group, on tackling child poverty in particular, and it's one of the Government's main priorities. So, we will be looking at measures that we can take to not just respond to the need, and of course we need to respond to the need for support in the short term, but also looking at the long-term picture. So, that strategy will take that longer term view on these issues. In terms of Cynnal, as you will know, we don't have the powers to be able to do the same as has been done in Scotland with direct payments to children, because of our devolution settlement. But I have convened an expert group. We've met four times already, and it's something that we ensured that we worked on as a matter of urgency. And what they do is provide advice on the design and how we implement the pilot. They're looking at a number of issues related to the pilot, including things such as who would be eligible, how we're going to get that money out to families, how we're going to raise awareness of it, what the mechanisms will be in terms of getting the payment out. And, of course, what's most important is evaluating the process because, clearly, you would think that giving this payment would make a difference, but we need to be clear about how it's making a difference. So, we're evaluating as part of the work—not just how we're going to do it, but how we're going to evaluate the way that we do it and what evidence that provides to us.  In terms of my engagement with the Government, that has happened on an official level, because it is very important that we do have the tax and benefits disregard. We don't want children and families to be worse off, and that is a risk if we don't have that co-operation from the UK Treasury on this. So, we are entirely clear that that is crucially important to have in place. So, we do very much hope—. I would be very disappointed if they weren't able to provide that to us, that is that they help us to use the powers that we have for the best benefit.  I don't know, Claire, whether you want to speak specifically about the detailed engagement that has taken place, if you'd like to have those details.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771163 32 Cy 2026-09-23T09:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=950&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771177 33 Cy 2026-09-23T09:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=950&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771194 34 En 2026-09-23T09:46:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1027&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 3863 Claire Germain Germain, Claire Diolch. We've been engaging for a little while now at official level on this. The Deputy First Minister met with Baroness Sherlock, who is a Minister in the Lords, recently, to start that political engagement. We're making the case around Cynnal being disregarded. It's a clear part of us sharing the ambition around tackling poverty. We believe it's the right way forward, so we are doing that at pace with them and they recognise our desire to do that at pace.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771202 35 En 2026-09-23T09:46:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1051&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. Laura, and then we'll move on to the next area.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771203 36 En 2026-09-23T09:46:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1054&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne It's following on from Sarah's question, actually. The root causes are really important. As well as throwing money at a problem, it's very important that we look at those, and it's very important that we do provide those jobs and opportunities in Wales, on people's doorsteps. I was just wondering how you're working across parties to achieve those goals. But also, as well as directly and indirectly looking at this, have you looked at examples of best practices across the United Kingdom, in all parts, about what has worked in the past? And are you using that? Because I know it's a tradition, it seems, in Wales that we sort of reject what they're doing over the border, rather than just using that and Welshifying it and adapting it to what's happening here. So, I hope that that's the case.  Have we looked even further afield to that as well? Have you looked at other countries similar to ours, with a similar make-up, and seen what's working there? I'd be interested to know how you've come to the conclusion about what you think is best in your new strategy, and how you've developed it. Thank you.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771213 37 Cy 2026-09-23T09:47:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1121&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned To be clear, we haven't developed—. We're in the process of developing the new strategy. I do think that there are some things in the new strategy that are valuable, but what I want to do is to refine it and to focus on the things that will truly make a difference—so that it's not a list of the things that the Government is doing, but how they're making a difference. I think that's the main difference in terms of my vision. We are engaging, as I mentioned at the outset, with those groups and organisations that are experts, who have undertaken research into this, who have drawn from those international examples.  I would reject the suggestion, certainly about this Government—. This Government is entirely open to the best ideas, from wherever they may come. And in my meetings with the UK Government, I have proposed, for instance, in terms of the Welsh voice, that we convene the group of quadrilaterals in the UK to look at this problem holistically, to share the good practice, and discuss what could be of benefit to us, and how that interaction works in terms of our powers, but also in terms of practice and how that can be fed into what we do in the most efficient way.  Obviously, we do need to consider, when we look into those international examples, what is similar. You could look at what some nations do, but perhaps they have powers and a higher level of taxation, and more resources than we have. So, it has to be suitable for our powers, and for the budget that we have and the type of systems that we have in place here in Wales. But I am entirely clear that we will be drawing on good practice from wherever it may come.  In terms of the Cynnal payment, Scotland was the only nation in the United Kingdom, according to the recent reports that we've seen, where it looked like the child poverty rates were going down. They were going to increase in every other part of the UK. That is why we have adopted that, because we could see that it worked. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771156 38 Cy 2026-09-23T09:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1250&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771159 39 En 2026-09-23T09:50:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1269&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771160 40 En 2026-09-23T09:50:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1273&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771231 41 En 2026-09-23T09:53:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1473&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771232 42 En 2026-09-23T09:53:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1474&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771157 43 En 2026-09-23T09:50:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1265&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. We'll move on to poverty more widely and the cost of living. Steve Bayliss. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771161 44 En 2026-09-23T09:50:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1270&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8696 8696 Steve Bayliss https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8696 Bayliss, Steve Could I just add further on that? The Government paper says work has begun on child poverty targets and that it has refreshed the child poverty strategy. It also says Cynnal is being developed to provide a weekly payment for up to 15,000 children in universal credit households, with an expert group advising on delivery. What the paper does not provide is a baseline, target level, timetable, and a success criteria for Cynnal. You say work has begun on the child poverty targets. When will those targets be published? What baseline will they use? And by what date should the committee expect to see measurable reductions rather than simply evidence the programmes have been delivered? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771204 45 Cy 2026-09-23T09:51:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1328&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned I think I responded to that question earlier, in response to Jane Dodds. Early next year is when we’ll be taking the strategy out for consultation.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771224 46 En 2026-09-23T09:51:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1342&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. I wanted to ask whether the Welsh Government plans to retain the existing tackling fuel poverty action plan and the 2035 targets. And if that is the case, do you plan on bringing any targets in the interim to check that progress is happening? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771225 47 Cy 2026-09-23T09:51:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1362&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much for the question. We know that the signs are not positive for this winter. So fuel poverty is something that we are entirely alive to. It's something that's complicated. It's something that's deep-rooted. There are several factors involved here. There are factors that are related to household income, low incomes, but also high energy costs. And we know that they are increasing once again. And in Wales we have that poor efficiency in our housing stock, generally speaking. The landscape has changed fundamentally, I would say, since that scheme was developed and launched back in 2021. As I said, there have been great changes in terms of the cost-of-living crisis, there have been changes in terms of the broader economic pressures and, of course, this great increase and the volatility we've seen in the energy markets. So, I do think that the challenges that face households now are somewhat different to the ones that existed back when the original plan was launched back in 2021. So my officials are currently assessing what that means in terms of the plan, in terms of the targets within it, and in terms of those interim targets. So, that's our position at present with that scheme. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771227 48 En 2026-09-23T09:53:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1470&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Jayne Bryant. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771230 49 En 2026-09-23T09:53:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1471&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch. Bore da, Minister. Last week, the Welsh Government announced some extra funding for emergency food aid for people in crisis and support to prevent poverty across Wales, which is obviously very welcome. You'll know that, from the index of multiple deprivation, relative deprivation in Wales is heavily concentrated in urban communities, major cities, the south Wales Valleys and specific coastal areas. In that announcement you also added extra to rural areas. Can you just explain why that was done, based on the fact that there's more poverty in urban areas? Out of income-deprived individuals in Wales, 77 per cent live in urban areas compared to 13 per cent in larger rural areas and 10 per cent in smaller rural areas. I know there is rural poverty as well, but I'm just looking at this particular point. Was that money that you've announced extra, or was it top-sliced off the way that you usually distribute funding across to local authorities in Wales? Is this something we can expect from future announcements as well? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771135 50 En 2026-09-23T09:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1550&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771136 51 Cy 2026-09-23T09:55:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1553&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you for the question. Yes, that package—the cost-of-living support package for local authorities—is something that provides support to all kinds of interventions that can help to tackle the support that is needed. It was related to support involving food in particular. So, we're talking here about foodbanks, community cafes, cookery skills, projects that provide healthy, nutritious food to families on low incomes. And by the same token, we've also ensured with that package that it takes a preventative approach. Advisory services, services with community organisations that would be able to provide support and signposting for people that they seek to support, were an important part of that to try to prevent crisis rather than meeting demand, because there's always a balance to be struck there. We have to respond to crisis, but we also need to look at the longer term picture, that we don't just pour money into the support side, although that's very important, but we also try to prevent families from going into crisis in the first instance. In terms of the point on the fact that we reflected in the way that the funding was allocated via local authorities, that was something that was factored in from the very outset. So, it wasn't true to say that we were taking money away from any one place, it's something that we incorporated into the way that we were going to allocate the funding from the outset. But, yes, poverty exists, as this committee will hopefully know full well, in every ward almost in Wales. It's something that impacts everyone, but it impacts communities in different ways. And rural poverty, for example, is related to the fact that it costs more sometimes for people to be able to access advice services, or it costs more for organisations to get those crisis food packages out to communities. So, that hasn't always been reflected in the past and we wanted to reflect it this time because we, as a Government, recognise that we have to serve every part of Wales. That isn't to say that we don't serve some areas that aren't rural areas, but we are looking at that bigger picture of poverty across Wales and ensuring that the support that we provide reflects the differences between the different local authorities. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771150 52 En 2026-09-23T09:57:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1728&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Sarah Rees. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771152 53 En 2026-09-23T09:58:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1730&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah I think one of the things, when it comes to poverty, that is often invisible is time poverty. I know that people who are working multiple jobs just to pay their bills don't have time, for example, to find or cook healthy food just on the fly. So, whilst you've said a lot about reducing food poverty and the food strategy, I'd be really interested to look at how we improve the availability and affordability of healthy food for families in poverty. Diolch. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771154 54 Cy 2026-09-23T09:58:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1761&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you for the question. I think that's a really important point. So, once again, we are working across the Government on a food strategy and part of that is taking a strategic approach of looking at reducing food poverty. So, it's not just those emergency support packages, which, unfortunately, are necessary until people are paid well enough and there's a benefit system there in place for them, which is going to be crucial, but to ensure that we improve that access to food that is healthy and affordable and food that's nutritious, too. That's something that's central to the strategy and our ambitions as a Government. So, of course, we have our food partnerships in place. I think we did look at this thoroughly in this committee and that report was extremely helpful. I think it was the last report of the previous committee in the previous Senedd. And that report was entirely clear that tackling food poverty and ensuring that we improve health outputs for people in poverty go hand in hand. Therefore, I think that that funding that I released last week was a part of that. Of course, it was intentional, as we're facing the winter and thinking about what's to come, and the pressures we will face in winter. But there was a long-term element involved in that as well. So, working through our local food partnerships, and the co-ordinators we have who are funded from my portfolio, is something that will help with that. I will have input into that food strategy in order to ensure that we do meet that demand and respond to that issue, which, frankly, of course, is at the root of health issues. We saw, last week, I think, didn't we, obesity, for instance, within children who are in poverty exists in particular—the health outcomes. I remember reading a report from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health that showed that the majority of young people who are getting planned or urgent treatment are children living in poverty. So, this isn't just something that's about being merciful and something that's good to do, but it will ultimately save us money as a Government, not to mention, of course, the human cost. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771153 55 Cy 2026-09-23T10:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1850&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771158 56 En 2026-09-23T10:01:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1932&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Diolch yn fawr. We'll move on now to social security and the Welsh benefits system. Joe Martin. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771164 57 En 2026-09-23T10:01:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1941&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12146 12146 Joe Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12146 Martin, Joe I was reading about the upcoming Cynnal payment scheme, so £10 for families on universal credit, per child, per week. I was interested to know, because, obviously, Reform had their conference earlier this month, and a big thing that Reform are passionate about is benefits going to British people as opposed to foreign nationals—. Obviously, Plaid Cymru are a nationalist party; they make a big deal about putting the people of Wales first. So, could we expect something like that from Plaid Cymru, where, if this Cynnal payment scheme's going to be trialled, it could go to just Welsh people or just British citizens and not foreign nationals? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771167 58 Cy 2026-09-23T10:02:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=1978&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Well, we are discussing eligibility, of course, at the moment with the expert group, and at present we are looking at the fact that it is families that are in receipt of universal credit that will be eligible. Of course, that means that there is eligibility in terms of citizenship and in terms of how eligible you are for those welfare payments in that regard. So, it's likely you will have to be eligible for universal credit in order to be eligible for Cynnal. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771172 59 En 2026-09-23T10:02:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2016&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12146 12146 Joe Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12146 Martin, Joe So, the UK currently spends—[Interruption.] Oh, sorry. Am I all right to come back? I do apologise. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771175 60 En 2026-09-23T10:02:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2021&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Sorry, Jane wanted to come in, but we can come back. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771228 61 En 2026-09-23T10:02:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2022&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12146 12146 Joe Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12146 Martin, Joe Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771176 62 En 2026-09-23T10:02:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2023&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane I've got a point to make about what you've just said, which is that we're not supposed to be here as Members of parties, we're supposed to be here to scrutinise the Minister. So, I'd respectfully just ask you to think about that and not refer to your political party or conferences. Thank you.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771178 63 En 2026-09-23T10:03:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2038&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12146 12146 Joe Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12146 Martin, Joe Okay. I do apologise. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771180 64 En 2026-09-23T10:03:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2039&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you, Jane. Do you have another one you wanted to rephrase, or—? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771182 65 En 2026-09-23T10:03:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2042&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12146 12146 Joe Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12146 Martin, Joe Yes, just on that. So, we currently spend £12 billion per year on benefits for foreign nationals who are in receipt of universal credit. So, being in receipt of universal credit wouldn't preclude foreign nationals from receiving this particular benefit payment. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771185 66 Cy 2026-09-23T10:03:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2060&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Well, the eligibility for universal credit is something that is decided by the UK Government. As you know, welfare benefits are not devolved, so we would look at that eligibility. If you're eligible for payments from the British state, then we would consider that those people, those children and families who need our support and are in hardship, are eligible for support from the Welsh Government.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771188 67 En 2026-09-23T10:04:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2094&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12146 12146 Joe Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12146 Martin, Joe Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771189 68 En 2026-09-23T10:04:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2095&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. I wondered if you could talk a bit about the devolution of the Welsh benefits system, and where we are with that and what you see this Government hoping to do over the next four years as well. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771192 69 Cy 2026-09-23T10:04:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2105&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much. This Government, as you know, has ambitions in terms of  the devolution of a number of powers over welfare. So, I have already, through correspondence and also through meetings, had several meetings with Ministers in the UK Government, namely the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and also the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Minister for Transformation). So, I've set out, in those meetings, our ambitions in terms of receiving additional powers over devolution, so that we can create a system that is more fit for purpose in terms of the kind of support that we want to provide for our families and communities here. So, of course, ensuring that we can be enabled to pilot Cynnal is part of those discussions. That is part of our powers under the Government of Wales Act 2006, but, of course, as I mentioned earlier, we do need support to do that in terms of the Treasury, to ensure that no family or child that receives those payments is worse off as a result. So, I do think that there is more that could be done with regard to the welfare system. I have thought, for example, in the short term that there is more that could be done in that regard, in terms of ensuring that we can share data better, given that the DWP isn't always able to share the data, or isn't willing to share the data, that we need in order to use those data to ensure that what we provide under our powers does reach the pockets of people as quickly and as easily as possible—those people who are eligible for that support. So, I have emphasised that Wales needs to have a voice in these decisions, and that Wales's priorities need to be reflected in full when the decisions are made. I've made that clear, for example, with Sir Stephen Timms, who, of course, as the committee is probably aware, is undertaking a review at present of the personal independence payments. We know that any change in that regard is going to have a disproportionate impact on Wales because of the number of people in Wales who receive those PIP payments, and disabled people. So, I have said clearly to that Minister that we need to ensure that the voice of Wales and the voice of disabled people in Wales who will be impacted by these reforms are heard more clearly. There has been a great deal of discontent expressed in that regard, and I support that discontent, and have expressed that. So, I do look forward to having that positive and productive dialogue with the UK Government on this, because it is a crucially important agenda. It's something that has so much influence on the lives and the quality of life of people in Wales. So, I do think that we need to ensure that our stance is clear, that our voice is heard and that we work together, whilst urging the devolution of these powers, and that we ensure that we can do everything we can, such as being able to share data with the DWP, to ensure that what we provide can reach those families as easily and as quickly as possible. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771151 70 Cy 2026-09-23T10:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2150&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771166 71 En 2026-09-23T10:08:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2347&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. Sarah Rees. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771187 72 En 2026-09-23T10:08:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2348&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thanks. I wanted to come to what's known as the Welsh benefits system, but I would like to say on record that, in my previous role at Oxfam Cymru, we were part of funding the Bevan Foundation with that research. And really, there has to be mention of the progress that was made by the previous Government on streamlining and simplifying that Welsh benefits system, but a lot more work needs to be done. So, I'd really like to know what actions you're taking to bring forward that streamlined and simplified Welsh benefits system, because that's truly what will ease the impact of poverty on Welsh families. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771197 73 Cy 2026-09-23T10:08:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2386&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned You're entirely right. The charter, as it currently stands, is something that all local authorities have agreed that they support. That is, that charter is to do with trying to ensure that Welsh benefits, as we call them—the things that the Welsh Government does in order to try to support families in Wales—reach people in a simpler way. It can be very different across local authorities. We know that many people who are eligible for these payments don't claim them—perhaps because of a lack of awareness, perhaps because it's difficult and complex. So, that work has been going forth. I've been clear that we need for that also to be a focus for this Government. We need to—. In our first 100 days, we commissioned independent academics from Cardiff University to look at our Welsh system in its entirety—to review that. That evidence will now look across 15 programmes that offer types of support, in order to assess how effective they are, and also how they're delivered, what the eligibility is—all those complexities, I believe, that will be crucial if we want to see more streamlining in regard to that system. So, we expect the report on that to come out by the end of the year, and that will assist us, then. We have a network that is looking at this, which includes people who are experts in this field, but also local authorities, to ensure that we can get to it on this work. I do think that it's absolutely essential that we make sure, in these times, that the support that is available reaches the people who need it. I don't know, Claire, if you want to speak a little about the work of the group on this. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771155 74 Cy 2026-09-23T10:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2450&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771169 75 En 2026-09-23T10:11:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2523&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 3863 Claire Germain Germain, Claire Absolutely, yes. So, we've got a steering group in place, independently chaired by Fran Targett, who is previously of—you probably know Fran well—Citizens Advice, which is looking for that collective shared ownership of this work and driving it forward. The first phase, putting in place the foundations, did a lot of work in the last couple of years on that, but we think it was very clear, specifically to that group, that the push now is for pace, to move from discussion to delivery and seeing that turning into quite a practical route-map. They're currently working on their next phase route-map, hoping to look at that in October and share that with the First Minister to see what the next set of very practical steps are that show a move now to practical outcomes, and seeing a change in people's experiences of benefits. So, that's the next focus for the group: to translate the foundational work into practical action. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771186 76 Cy 2026-09-23T10:11:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2564&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned And I think that this is part of that preventative agenda that we're constantly talking about. If we can ensure that people get access that's easy and timely to the available support, then we won't have to spend so much on the acute support, which isn't good for anyone. And we know, as we said earlier, about all the outputs and all the things that could emanate from that. I have made it clear that there are no options that are off the table here. The charter at present is voluntary. If we do not see progress, then I may consider statutory measures to ensure that this happens. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771209 77 En 2026-09-23T10:12:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2611&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub I'd like to move on to the human rights Bill now. I wondered what the expected timeline for the Bill is, and how Welsh Government intends to keep the Senedd committee and civil society up to date on the progress. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771214 78 Cy 2026-09-23T10:12:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2624&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you. So, Hawliau i Gymru is our programme for developing and testing options for strengthening human rights in Wales. It brings together an expert group, therefore a group of people who are legal experts, academics, practitioners. We also have a wider network of stakeholders who have an interest in strengthening human rights in Wales. The work of this group is also to look at lessons from other jurisdictions, to see how other places in the world have approached this. But what I am interested in doing is developing a Welsh model that is ambitious, but that is also practicable. So, that work is starting this week, because tomorrow, as it happens, I will be chairing a round-table discussion related to—. The people in that meeting will be officials from other Governments, and also academics from across the United Kingdom and also the Channel Islands, where they've started thinking about legislation in this policy area. So, what I hear from that meeting will then feed into the first meeting of the panel that I will be co-chairing next week. So, I am going to be announcing the membership of that panel. Once we have made—. We are currently in the process of appointing the panel, so I'm sure you'll appreciate that there are processes that have to be followed in terms of those appointments, but the process has long since started. But as I was saying, the membership of that group has been designed around what we want this work, this Bill, to deliver, thinking about human rights, thinking about devolution, thinking about the Welsh legislative landscape, thinking about the relative experience, thinking about the perspective of public services and how we can deliver change. So, this is a complex job of work. It is going to take some time to do, but the programme for government has committed to bringing forward a proposal for what this Bill, possibly, what this legislation, will look like before the end of the term, clearly. But it won't be in the first tranche of legislation that we as a Government would want to pass, because we do want to ensure that this is done right, and we want to ensure that it is all something that is fit for purpose and within our competence as a Government. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771181 79 Cy 2026-09-23T10:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2750&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771211 80 En 2026-09-23T10:16:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2820&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Diolch yn fawr. Sarah Rees. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771215 81 En 2026-09-23T10:16:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2822&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thanks. I used to sit on the human rights advisory group with Welsh Government, so I wanted to ask whether that group was going to be reinstated or whether there would be any sort of different group, to ensure that there are relevant organisations able to inform the work—for example, Amnesty International, who obviously have a lot of expertise in this area. I'm very aware, from all the work that Welsh Government did on that previous group, that the incorporation, and the progress of that incorporation, was slow because of funding constraints, time constraints. This is obviously really complex and detailed work, and I think it's important to flag and find out how complexity will be avoided whilst ensuring that we don't lose the nuance of specific conventions because, from my limited legal experience, the change of a word can have a huge impact. And I'd like to ask whether the Welsh Government has ruled out direct treaty incorporation. Thank you. Sorry, there's a lot in there. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771226 82 Cy 2026-09-23T10:17:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=2882&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much. Yes, I think that we saw from the legislative options working group's report, which is the group that came out of HRAG in the last term—. They provided a great deal of guidance and leadership for us in terms of the type of incorporation that could work for Wales. The work of the new hawliau i Gymru group—so, the hawliau i Gymru group is looking at the how, not the why—is what we'll have this term. And as I said, I can't reveal what the membership of that group is now, but there are legal experts who will be looking at how the legislation could look as a part of that. So, there are issues to do with direct incorporation or not, which is of course something that the LOWG was discussing in terms of the two treaties that they were specifically looking at. That's going to help, obviously, with our work from now on. But I want to be entirely clear: this Government believes that legislation is what is required. So, there are still legislative options around that, but that specific group, hawliau i Gymru, is going to be looking at the how. Obviously, as part of that, as was the case with the human rights advisory group, we will have that broader group of stakeholders, so people such as Amnesty and so on, everyone who, as I mentioned previously, has an interest in this work. We will be keeping in close touch with them and we'll be feeding what emanates from the discussions of the hawliau i Gymru group into the discussions with the broader stakeholder group. So, that's how I anticipate that working, in truth. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771238 83 En 2026-09-23T10:19:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3009&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah How can the Welsh Government ensure that this isn't a Bill for a Bill's sake, and it will actually make a tangible difference to people's lives—rather than being top-down, more bottom-up? What types of differences do you think it will make to people's day-to-day lives? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771240 84 Cy 2026-09-23T10:19:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3025&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Well, I was chair of the cross-party group on human rights in the previous Senedd, and we held an inquiry and published a report on how, currently, people aren't either aware of their rights or aren't able to see those rights being deployed in their daily lives. So, we heard evidence from disabled people, we heard evidence from people and organisations looking at women's rights; we looked at people from minority ethnic backgrounds. There were a number of stakeholders who participated, and they were able to provide specific examples of where things weren't operating as they should. We heard very powerful evidence about the Stolen Lives campaign, for example. This was an example where there were people who had learning disabilities being kept, in contravention of their human rights, in hospitals that weren't appropriate for them. Because there wasn't provision for them to live independently, they were being placed, and locked, indeed, in institutions that didn't respect their human rights. So, what I want this Bill to be is a kind of framework to help organisations in Wales to make the right decisions, to understand what those rights mean for people's lives on a daily basis, to help to raise awareness amongst people about how they can receive remedy and redress when things go wrong. Because, we say that Wales has been in the vanguard when it comes to human rights in terms of how we pay attention to children's rights, for example, but we often see decisions being made by public bodies and by Government that contravene those rights. So, I do think it's about making it clear to people what they can expect, and thinking about that framework of the UN treaties is a way that we can ensure that there is awareness and that there is action. But I am very clear that I want to make it easier. I want to stop these problems from arising in the first instance. So, I hope that it will provide leadership and support to public organisations to ensure that they don't contravene people's human rights, with all of the implications that has for people in their daily lives.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771162 85 Cy 2026-09-23T10:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3050&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771170 86 En 2026-09-23T10:22:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3196&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Diolch. Laura Anne Jones. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771171 87 En 2026-09-23T10:22:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3198&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Thank you very much. You talk about human rights, and you actually mentioned women's rights just then. I just want to ask you, in light of the Supreme Court ruling, which was back in April 2025 now, quite a significant amount of time ago—. It clearly defined the definition of sex in law and stated that a woman is a biological woman. Regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, that is the letter of the law. So, I was just wondering when this Welsh Government will enable women to have rights in Wales, to ensure that all policy areas, all action plans, will adhere to the law and uphold those women's rights, who have the right to single-sex wards, single-sex spaces and their own sports. Diolch. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771174 88 En 2026-09-23T10:23:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3248&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Diolch. Well, as you'll know, the EHRC code of practice for services, public functions and associations came into force on 5 August. We are complying with our legal duties in respect of the Equality Act 2010, and all bodies and service providers must ensure themselves that they are complying with the law. We're absolutely clear on that. And so consistent application then requires consideration—careful consideration—of the guidance in each situation as regards those services that are being provided. And as you will know, the guidance provides examples—helpful examples—to bodies to help them apply the law in their particular circumstances. So, it's simple: the Welsh Government expects all organisations to comply with the law, and we've clearly stated that, but it is for the EHRC as the regulator to be able to monitor that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771179 89 En 2026-09-23T10:24:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3309&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Absolutely, so—. Sorry, Chair. So, this Government now has issued that guidance to all your relevant bodies, and your Ministers are adapting policies and the LGBTQ+ action plan, for example, to adhere to that, or is there more of a timeline, that we're still reviewing? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771183 90 En 2026-09-23T10:24:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3315&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Well, just to be clear, it's not the Welsh Government's responsibility to issue the guidance. It's the responsibility of the EHRC to issue the guidance. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771184 91 En 2026-09-23T10:24:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3332&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Yes, but it was held up last time, wasn't it, Minister, because the Welsh Government wanted to input into it and ensure that it had a Welsh angle to it? That was the hold up, I was told by the previous Government, if you remember, because you were in the Chamber with me. I'm just wondering—. So, there is no hold up now. That is what you expect as a Government, and you will be adapting your policies accordingly on what you do have responsibility for in line with the law. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771190 92 En 2026-09-23T10:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3350&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771193 93 En 2026-09-23T10:25:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3357&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned The Welsh Government will be held to account by the regulator in the same way as the bodies that are in Wales are held to account by the EHRC. It is not for the Welsh Government to issue that guidance. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771195 94 En 2026-09-23T10:25:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3372&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Yes, I know.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771196 95 En 2026-09-23T10:25:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3373&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned But, obviously, the Welsh guidance will be lawful, in that it will also adhere to that guidance.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771198 96 En 2026-09-23T10:25:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3379&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Okay, excellent, that's good. So, when are we going to see those new action plans in place, just so everyone's human rights are upheld?  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771199 97 En 2026-09-23T10:25:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3387&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned I don't know if—. Amelia, do you want to take that question as regards the work on that? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771200 98 En 2026-09-23T10:25:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3391&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 1076 Amelia John John, Amelia Yes, absolutely. In terms of the LGBTQ+ action plan, that came to an end at the end of the last Government term, so we're carrying out an evaluation of that to see what works, the barriers that exist et cetera. We'll be advising the Minister, then, next year on how to go forward in terms of actions around LGBTQ+ equality. The gender equality action plan actually lasted for longer than that and went over into this term as well. Again, we're reviewing what's working, what's not, the barriers facing women, so that we can again advise the Minister, who's been very, very clear that what she wants us to focus on is tangible impacts for people in Wales. So, it's about that, what are the greatest levers for driving gender equality. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771208 99 En 2026-09-23T10:26:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3435&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Okay. A last quick question on that. So, as the equality Minister, you are going to take responsibility to ensure that all Ministers across all portfolios are adhering to that law and adapting, for example, NHS policy in Wales accordingly. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771210 100 En 2026-09-23T10:26:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3449&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Well, as I said before, it is for the EHRC to monitor that. Obviously, for those things that are—. For instance, health—the responsibility for that then lies with the governance structure of the health boards, the people who deliver health services. The Government doesn't deliver health services. The boards that do the services and the public services that do provide those services, they are the ones who are responsible for making sure that they are compliant with the law, and the EHRC will give them guidance and monitor them on that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771217 101 En 2026-09-23T10:27:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3487&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. Sarah Rees. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771216 102 En 2026-09-23T10:27:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3489&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Just a follow-up question on that. One of the roles of the EHRC is to help organisations to understand their legal rights when it comes to some of these processes. This is something that is so complex that one of the advice points from the EHRC is, if you don't understand it, to get legal advice, which seems to be counter to why they're there in the first place. Is that something that you're questioning them on, or is that something that this committee could question? Is there any consideration being made to—we've got a number of protected groups in law—how we ensure that they have access to services, given the complexity of this and how people are then having to go and get their own legal advice to make sure that they're doing the right thing? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771220 103 En 2026-09-23T10:28:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3540&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Again, as I said, it is the EHRC's responsibility. The committee could have a view on how helpful or not that guidance is. I would suggest that that is something that the committee could explore, because I know there are concerns, but that isn't a role for Government. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771221 104 En 2026-09-23T10:28:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3564&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771222 105 En 2026-09-23T10:28:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=3566&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. We're about halfway through, so I was going to suggest a couple of minutes' break, if that's okay—happy, everyone? Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771223 106 Cy 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice I The meeting adjourned between 10:28 and 10:38. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771234 107 Cy 2026-09-23T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=-34150&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771236 108 Cy 2026-09-23T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=-34150&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771229 109 En 2026-09-23T10:38:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4177&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Okay, we'll move on to the next topic on the agenda. So, we'll start with equality and social justice. Joe Martin. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771233 110 En 2026-09-23T10:38:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4189&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12146 12146 Joe Martin https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12146 Martin, Joe I brought something up at First Minister's questions, but I didn't receive an answer that I was satisfied with, so I just wanted to raise it with you again as it falls under your purview. There's a scheme called the ethnic minority initial teacher education scheme, and that pays £5,000 to ethnic minority students who want to become teachers. Now, that money isn't available to them if they have the wrong skin colour. So, if they're white, then they can't have that money. Now, that plainly, obviously, discriminates according to skin colour. It's by definition, therefore, racist. Now, I understand that you want a level playing field for people regardless of their skin colour, but that's being achieved—if it is being achieved—with racial discrimination. So, I don't know why this Government thinks it's okay to discriminate in accordance to skin colour. And would you be able to shed some light as to why you think that's okay? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771239 111 Cy 2026-09-23T10:39:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4242&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Well, I reject the suggestion that this Government discriminates according to someone's ethnic background. What we are doing, and what the equality action plans that fall within my portfolio and responsibility as a Minister, which then run across the Government, for instance into education, do is to ensure that those who are facing the greatest obstacles in their lives are supported so that we do ensure that the disadvantage that people experience—and we have a great deal of evidence of that, which I can provide to the committee if some Members are not aware of that evidence—that we ensure that those people receive the support that they need in order to make things equal for them. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771269 112 En 2026-09-23T10:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4250&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771293 113 En 2026-09-23T10:40:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4308&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. Sarah Rees. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771294 114 En 2026-09-23T10:40:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4309&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thank you. I think that what Joe was maybe clunkily referring to is positive action that's being taken to tackle barriers to equality. So, I'd be really keen to hear what actions the Welsh Government is taking to tackle gender inequality and whether you have—I'm not sure whether it comes into your portfolio—had any evaluation of—it was quite delayed—the previous work that the Welsh Government did on gender budgeting pilots and to see if that will be taken forward at all. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771297 115 En 2026-09-23T10:41:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4341&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Sorry, I missed the last part of your question. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771299 116 En 2026-09-23T10:41:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4342&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah The last part was as to whether you've taken any consideration of the delayed evaluation of the gender budgeting pilots that were done in the previous Government. I'm not sure whether that part comes under your portfolio, but if it does, then maybe you could come to that. That would be fantastic. Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771300 117 Cy 2026-09-23T10:41:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4357&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you. Just to say in general that our programme for government, which was announced yesterday, reflects our determination, our objective as a Government to work with people, particularly those people who have lived experience, in terms of ensuring equality. And our focus, as we've already mentioned, is on delivering outputs that are real, tangible, that people can feel in their daily lives, and strengthening, then, the delivery of the programmes that we have to ensure that that happens. So, for example, in terms of gender equality, we do this across a number of our schemes with regard to equality, but gender equality is, of course, vital in this work. And ensuring that— . We know, for example, about the gender pay gap, don't we? That's something where it is clearly obvious that there is further work to be done when it comes to ensuring gender equality. And in my portfolio, we have the childcare offer, which I hope will make a difference and will ensure that more women can enter the world of work or increase their working hours, or can undertake training and education opportunities and so on that will enable them to overcome the barriers that do exist for mothers in particular. And then, of course, in terms of the economy and skills more generally, skills are something that other Ministers in the education department and in the economy department are looking at in terms of our objective to ensure that there is greater equality within the work and employability and apprenticeship programmes that we already have. And we heard about that from the First Minister yesterday, didn't we, so I won't rehearse those comments. In terms of gender budgeting specifically, perhaps I'll pass you over to Amelia on that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771309 118 En 2026-09-23T10:44:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4495&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 1076 Amelia John John, Amelia Thank you. That does fall within the remit of the Cabinet Minister for Finance, and there was, indeed, as you'll know, a group that advised the previous administration around gender budgeting. I know that they had some really excellent pilots and reports from that, there was lots of learning from that. I'd be very happy, if the Minister's happy for us to do so, to get an update from our Treasury colleagues on this and write to the committee around those gender budgeting pilots and the advice that's now going forward to the Cabinet Minister for Finance. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771315 119 En 2026-09-23T10:44:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4525&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thank you very much. Just following up from that, whilst it does seem a long time ago to many, the closure of Chwarae Teg—. I was someone who benefited from support from Chwarae Teg when I was setting up a social enterprise. I know that, at some point, we'll be coming to the impact of funding for the third sector. Since Chwarae Teg has disappeared, we've got fewer women's equality organisations in Wales, and less—. The impact—there was so much that Chwarae Teg did to address income for women in Wales. I think it was over £1 million that they brought to women's incomes in Wales. So, it would be interesting to learn what could be done across portfolio to support women in the economy. Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771244 120 En 2026-09-23T10:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4550&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771274 121 Cy 2026-09-23T10:45:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4573&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you. Yes, I take the point. As I was mentioning, there are ways of ensuring that we engage, not just across the Cabinet, but also with the UK Government, where several of the economic powers and legislation relating to the workplace, for instance, lie in their hands. But, what we are seeking to do, through the schemes that we have—and they are, mainly, as I said, part of the skills agenda, but also the agenda around economic growth, and the productivity mission that the Government has—is that we look at this specifically. And I will be keeping a close eye on that and ensuring that there is a gender element or lens that is applied to those schemes.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771280 122 En 2026-09-23T10:46:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4632&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah One of the things that I know that Steve is passionate about is support for fathers as well, and there was an action during the end of the summer with a parent protest that was really calling on the UK Government to support shared parental leave and better leave for fathers and non-birthing parents. I wondered if there's any conversation that you're having with the UK Government on some of those policies that sit at that UK level that can really improve gender inequality. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771286 123 Cy 2026-09-23T10:46:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4660&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Well, I'm open to doing that. They aren't things, as you've mentioned, that are within our powers as a Government. But we do seek to encourage employers in Wales to be progressive in terms of their policies. We seek to influence. We have the social partnership board, and these are the kinds of things that we could be discussing in that forum. And fair work—that, of course, relates to fairness for the workforce, in the sense that they feel, because they are parents, for example, that they don't receive the fair play that they need at present.  So, I'm open to this. This is something that sits more within the economy portfolio, but I'm very open to ensuring—and I support those calls—that we receive fairness for parents, mothers and fathers, and for other carers.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771288 124 En 2026-09-23T10:47:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4719&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. Laura Anne Jones.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771289 125 En 2026-09-23T10:47:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4721&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Diolch, Chair. Minister, just firstly, I'd like to ask—. You obviously inherited a lot of action plans—equality action plans—from the last Government. I was just wondering which ones you were going to adopt. Secondly, I think we took big strides in terms of equality in the last Senedd. And I don't know about you, Minister, and Jayne, but I was very proud to be a part of that. And that was, of course, the British Sign Language (Wales) Act 2026. I thought that was a wonderful thing that we managed to achieve in the last Senedd—I'm sorry, and Jane over there as well. I'm just wondering where you are with the implementation of that. Diolch.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771291 126 Cy 2026-09-23T10:48:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4758&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Okay. So, I'll take the first part of the qusetion first of all. So, you're right, there are several equality action plans within this portfolio. As I mentioned, some of them have come to an end, for instance, the LGBTQ+, but others have extended beyond the age of the previous Government, for instance the disabled people's rights plan. So, major work went into that scheme, where there were a great deal of people with lived experience who had fed into that. I am very clear that i don't want all that energy and all that commitment to be wasted, because I do think that there are extremely valuable things in that plan, and, frankly, the announcement was quite late in the time of the previous Government. So, I think that we have an opportunity now just to act rather than create a plan. So, I don't want to take the whole of this Government to create more plans in terms of equality. I think we have a great many things that we can build on; the disabled people's plan is one of them.  But what I've asked my officials to do, and the stakeholders who are advising us on these plans to do, is to look at what the focus should be now as we progress, to prioritise what actions would have the greatest impact on people's lives. The same is true of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. That is currently being evaluated. So, that work is going to—. And I'm very clear that I want to look at what will make a difference to people's lives in relation to that. Why do some inequalities still remain in place? What would make the biggest difference there? So, there's a report on that, an interim report on that evaluation work, which we expect to see next spring. So, I also think, of course, you will know—. We have created a dashboard that was published over the summer, and there will be more data coming through on that as more data becomes available. So, I am very clear that I do not want to start something new just for the sake of starting something new. I think, certainly in terms of some of these plans, there are certainly things we can build on. What I am clear about is that I want to see a difference being made in people's lives. Plans should not just be a list of the actions that we take, which are praiseworthy and good, but things that lead to a change in people's lives. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771287 127 Cy 2026-09-23T10:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4850&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771304 128 En 2026-09-23T10:51:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4949&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne And if you could just comment on my second question. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771306 129 En 2026-09-23T10:51:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4953&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Oh, yes, on British Sign Language. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771307 130 Cy 2026-09-23T10:51:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=4958&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned That was a very important milestone, wasn't it? I think that not only will this legislation improve respect and support for BSL users, but also it's something that has really raised awareness. I remember, once again, being a member of the committee that was scrutinising that legislation, and the guidance that we received from Mark Isherwood. That was something that will stay with me for life. I think that Jane, perhaps, as a fellow former member of that committee, will agree. It was just about us appreciating, as hearing people, as people who do not use BSL, what the obstacles are and what the frustrations are as well for people who use BSL. So, on that and on the progress we have made, of course, it came into force just before the end of the previous Senedd, at the end of April, and since then, since it's come into force and gone onto the statute book, officials have started work on the national strategy on BSL and, of course, the statutory guidance that were a part of what the Act was calling for, and those two things have to be published within 18 months of the passing of the Bill. So, the work has truly started on that. We've had a session with the BSL stakeholder group to get their initial views on what that strategy should look like, what the guidance should look like, and we are also now recruiting the BSL adviser. You'll recall that that was a very important part of the legislation, and we were very clear that we needed to get that adviser in place as soon as possible so that they could lead the work, then, of ensuring that we facilitate and support the use of BSL in Wales. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771318 131 En 2026-09-23T10:53:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5078&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Brilliant, thanks. Diolch. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771319 132 En 2026-09-23T10:53:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5080&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Okay. If there are no more questions on equality and social justice, I'm happy to move on. So, the next topic we're covering is violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Sarah Rees. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771320 133 En 2026-09-23T10:54:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5091&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thank you. Minister, I'd like to ask how the findings of the completed violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy review will shape the new strategy that's due by summer 2027, and how we address implementation gaps that have been identified by the national adviser and specialist stakeholders. And would you be sharing the review of findings and recommendations with the committee? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771321 134 Cy 2026-09-23T10:54:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5117&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much. This was one of the areas of work within my portfolio that we started work on very swiftly within the first 100 days. You'll know, of course, that it's a statutory requirement for a new Government to review the strategy after being elected, and we decided that this was going to be one of the first things that we would do. You'll perhaps remember that I was chair of the cross-party group in the previous Senedd on violence against women and children, so this is something that I felt very passionately about and I knew that we needed to look at the gaps that continue to exist in terms of the strategy. So, we undertook a very swift statutory review within the first 100 days. That review included survivors, people who provide expert services, partners, of course, who deliver elements of the strategy on our behalf, and, of course, the national adviser, Jo Robinson. So, the findings of that review will now feed into the new national strategy. So, on Monday, as it happens, I discussed this in the Cabinet. I presented a paper to the Cabinet about the strategy and what the timescale will be in terms of the new strategy, and I emphasised there the importance of this being seen and understood across every portfolio in order to bring VAWDASV to an end. So, they share the ambition, the entire Government shares the ambition, that this has to be a whole-system and cross-governmental approach. And I have had two very positive and beneficial meetings since entering this role with the national adviser, Jo Robinson, and we have been discussing what needs to be done. So, in terms of what we've already seen being done—and as I said, we're still consulting on this and thinking about how this will take shape in the next strategy—I think that one of the gaps that we need to consider in terms of the new strategy is online harm. This is something that is becoming increasingly prominent and is something that, perhaps—. It's not new, but it is something that continues to develop with artificial intelligence and so on. [Inaudible.] Yes. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771235 135 Cy 2026-09-23T10:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5150&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771253 136 En 2026-09-23T10:57:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5275&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah One thing I was going to mention on that specifically was social media and the increase in misogyny and whether that's being considered. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771262 137 Cy 2026-09-23T10:57:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5283&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned So, that—. Yes, abuse via tech, through social media, through behaviour—coercive and controlling behaviour. We know that this is something that perhaps hasn't received the attention or the recognition that it warrants, that it's a very serious kind of domestic abuse. There's stalking, post-separation abuse—that is something that can happen—and, of course, sexual violence. So, the other main thing that's come through very strongly in this is the need for better accountability for those bodies that are meant, under the legislation, to deliver on their duties with regard to VAWDASV. So, the national adviser is very clear, and I agree with her, that there is more that needs to be done in terms of ensuring that the statutory duties under the Act are more prominent, and that there is a stronger leadership role within those bodies, particularly, perhaps, in terms of local authorities and health boards. And we know that health plays a very important role in that battle to bring violence against women and domestic abuse to an end. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771273 138 En 2026-09-23T10:58:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5372&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah And I think this is maybe where we see the connection with a human rights Bill for Wales, particularly when we consider children. Is there any consideration of that cross-over? I'd like to ask whether you will respond to the review's findings on children's needs and recognising children as victims in their own right when it comes to domestic abuse and violence against women. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771276 139 Cy 2026-09-23T10:59:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5395&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned I think that that needs to be a central consideration in the new strategy. There is work that is currently taking place through the children and young people blueprint work stream, which includes engaging with children and young people throughout Wales—mapping out the specialist services that are available for them and strengthening those pathways, then, for their welfare and in terms of the support available to them. But I fully agree that we have to ensure that the new strategy is shaped by their experiences and that we ensure that that support, which has to be age appropriate, of course, will put their voice and their needs and the outputs and results for them at the root of that. Because children aren't just witnesses to abuse, and we know there's a great deal of evidence out there about what the results of that can be. But they're also victims and survivors in their own right. So, I do commit to ensuring that the new strategy will put those voices at the heart of it. Andrew, I don't know if you want to add anything. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771237 140 Cy 2026-09-23T11:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5450&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771242 141 En 2026-09-23T11:00:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5487&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 2280 Andrew Charles Charles, Andrew Yes, just to add that we're doing some work at the moment with Swansea University and Media Academy Cymru to look at how do we engage children and young people in the conversation about the strategy. Because a really important thing that's come through the review is how do we engage the voices in that strategy. So, that work is just about to start. As we now have concluded the review, we're now on to the policy development phase, to develop the options and the actions that will come up in the new strategy next year.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771245 142 En 2026-09-23T11:01:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5511&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Thank you. And just finally on that from me, I've spent a lot of time in my constituency with Vale Domestic Abuse Services, and one thing that comes from them, and people across the sector, is that these are charities that are trapped in funding cycles, and we should not ever be turning any woman away from a service. So, what consideration is being given to the impact of funding cycles and funding cliffs for these essential services? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771246 143 Cy 2026-09-23T11:01:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5541&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned That is something that we have heard, and we've heard it for several years. Our manifesto commits, and this Government commits, to ensuring that we protect the funding for those crucial specialist services. So, we are, as part of this work, going to be looking at the way that that funding is allocated. That is at the heart of this work, because these are the people who do this vital work. So, funding is a major part of the discussions on this. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771256 144 En 2026-09-23T11:02:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5587&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Jane Dodds. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771255 145 Cy 2026-09-23T11:02:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5588&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane There's so much that you could put into this strategy—it's so important. But I just want some kind of assurance from you, if that's all right, that the strategy will include people who are refugees, women who have disabilities, people who are seeking asylum, for instance—that's one thing. Women who go into prison—we do know that, usually, they have had experiences of violence, unfortunately. And finally, I just wanted to follow up as well—. We do know, don't we, how important it is to prevent this, and that is working with boys and young men. Could you give us some assurance about the first two things, and then talk a little about the work that is going on, or is being provided, for boys and young men via education? Thank you very much. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771275 146 Cy 2026-09-23T11:03:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5654&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much. You are entirely right. We know that we have to take an intersectional approach in this regard. We know that we need to understand and keep at the forefront of our minds, with the development of this new strategy, how other characteristics such as poverty, such as race and ethnic background, such as age, such as disability and so on, how they—. People don't experience abuse in the same way, and we need to reflect that in our strategy, and ensure that the appropriate kinds of help and support are available to those different people. So, I recognise that entirely. Survivors aren't a single group, are they? Their experiences are very diverse, their situations are very diverse. So, as I said, we are committed to listening to those lived experiences, to learn from those people who aren't just one homogenous kind of group, in order to ensure that our policies and our services reflect that diversity and difference. In terms of prevention, of course, prevention is one of those guiding principles for all of our work across Government, and I agree entirely with you, again, about the importance of this work. I'm sure you'll be aware of the programmes that we have—the Sound campaign—where we use male role models, and that has proved to be very successful, so I have continued with that. As I've said already, although we are a new Government, I want to continue with those things that are working, and that's proven to be effective, and we'd like to build on that, to gather further ideas of that kind of activity. We know that the perpetrator programmes are also very important in this regard. So, I can certainly give you an assurance that that element is going to be a core part of the new strategy. I don't know, Andrew, if you want to provide further details on the preventative programmes—the education ones. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771277 147 Cy 2026-09-23T11:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5750&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771292 148 En 2026-09-23T11:05:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5797&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 2280 Andrew Charles Charles, Andrew Yes. I think there's a lot, because, under the legislation, prevention is one of the key requirements for setting a new strategy. So, a lot of the conversations we're having now—. The importance of prevention came up quite strongly in the review conversations back in July, so that's going to be feeding into the new strategy. But a lot of the conversations we're having now are across Government. We're starting to talk to colleagues around what they can do to tackle this agenda and what role they can play. But prevention is a really key part both of the commitment in the programme for government and also a key part in the legislation. As the Deputy First Minister said, that strong theme around supporting men and boys, and the Sound campaign, is a really important part of that approach. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771295 149 En 2026-09-23T11:05:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5782&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 1076 Amelia John John, Amelia Only to say, obviously, it doesn't fall within your portfolio, Gweinidog, but I know, in education, a lot of work is going on around respectful relationships in schools, et cetera. I'm sure education colleagues will be able to provide more information about that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771296 150 Cy 2026-09-23T11:06:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5856&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned And this was something that came through very strongly in the Cabinet when we were discussing this. Of course, my role is to ensure that that awareness, understanding and responsibility are shared. So, that, for instance, those opportunities through relationships and sexuality education, was essentially important and core to that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771301 151 Cy 2026-09-23T11:07:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5878&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771302 152 En 2026-09-23T11:07:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5880&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. We'll move on now to community cohesion and safety. Jayne Bryant. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771303 153 En 2026-09-23T11:07:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5884&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch, Gadeirydd. Community cohesion is something that's all our responsibility, but, obviously, Government has to take a lead as well. The previous Government did seek to strengthen community cohesion through its community cohesion programme. I know that you, in your priority statement, have committed to progressing the recent community cohesion expert group's recommendations. So, I'm just wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about that work, how it's likely to be measured, and how, as a committee, we can keep up to date with the work of the recommendations group. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771305 154 Cy 2026-09-23T11:07:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=5927&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you, Jayne. Yes, I agree, we have very firm foundations to build upon in terms of this work with regard to community cohesion. Again, I was very pleased to be part of the previous committee, which affirmed that, truth be told. We know that the number of reports, for example, about hate crimes are increasing, and have been increasing over the past few years, and that polarisation within our society is intensifying. I think that a number of the recommendations of the expert group drew attention very firmly to those developments. So, we have a number of initiatives in train at the moment to help to foster positive connections, to prevent hate and to provide support to those people who experience those kinds of hate crimes. They include the community cohesion programme, Hate hurts Wales—that campaign—and, of course, the Wales Hate Support Centre, and wider initiatives that try to foster resilience in face of some of these damaging and harmful narratives. I spoke earlier about social media. Of course, those aren't powers that we have to regulate at the moment, but we are looking at ways of identifying false and fake narratives that are damaging and harmful, and then working with partners to stand against those narratives. We also have to think about those broader matters within the portfolio. Spaces—I believe that we need to have spaces where people can come together, where people can see each other as human beings and not place them in silos or boxes where people feel that they can't identify with each other's experiences. It's very important that we do identify with each other's experiences. So, I think that the voluntary sector has a major role to play in this—bringing communities together, strengthening those connections between people from different backgrounds and different experiences to foster that sense of cohesion, of belonging and of empathy. I think that that will help, perhaps, to decrease some of those divisions, to decrease those feelings of disconnection from each other, which I think is very harmful to our society. Andrew, I don't know if you wanted to come in briefly on that policy. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771241 155 Cy 2026-09-23T11:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6050&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771248 156 En 2026-09-23T11:10:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6093&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 2280 Andrew Charles Charles, Andrew Just in terms of an update on the work, the expert group reported in March, published its recommendations, so we're currently considering those recommendations as part of the ongoing work with the Deputy First Minister, and we'll be making, I'm sure, a response to that report in due course. But, over the course of that expert group, we also worked with the expert group to define and set out a set of cohesion principles, which are on the website, and that describes what cohesion looks like in Wales and how these principles would help organisations and Government understand what it looks like. So, that work is in train. There are a number of recommendations that have already been delivered, but there's work to be done on what the full response is. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771260 157 En 2026-09-23T11:11:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6134&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne We're always keen to get dates in due course. It sounds like way down the line, but, yes, it'd be good for us as a committee to maybe follow the work that you're doing on that point as well. So, I'd be very grateful if we can follow that. It's really important work. You mentioned tackling misinformation and I think that's absolutely crucial. We've touched on social media, haven't we? But there's so much around trying to get in quite early around that misinformation that can easily get around and really cause some community cohesion issues. I know that, on a different scale, the UK Government announced today a new agency that's going to be established. And I'm just wondering, this isn't just—. Obviously, this will be a cross-Government responsibility about how we tackle misinformation. I'm just wondering what more we can do, what you're doing in that space as well, and how you can bring people together to make sure we're tackling misinformation at source as effectively as possible. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771263 158 Cy 2026-09-23T11:12:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6197&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Yeah, I take that point and I agree with it. As I was saying earlier, many of the powers that we could use to regulate how this misinformation is spread are not available to us. But, as I said, I do think that there are things that we can do to make communities more resilient to be able to withstand that misinformation. Obviously, we work very closely with partners who see the impact of this through the third sector and the voluntary sector, who could share with us their ideas and ensure that we are able to support them in the work that they're doing in terms of trying to tackle this. In terms of the new agency, I would certainly be interested to engage with that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771278 159 En 2026-09-23T11:13:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6252&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch. And I just wanted to ask about the national crime prevention agency for Wales. Obviously, crime prevention is something that our communities care very deeply about. We need to make sure that we are finding some practical outcomes for communities with this. And I just wonder if you could perhaps talk a little bit about that agency and what it's expected to deliver. Again, we're keen on timelines, as I know you were on this committee, Minister. So, we're keen to have more of an idea about that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771282 160 Cy 2026-09-23T11:13:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6284&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Yes, of course. The idea behind this is thinking about a new way of looking at crime prevention. We know that crime in a number of different ways—. Although we don't have powers over criminal justice and policing, people in Wales do feel the impact, clearly, of offending and crime. So, what we want to do by working in partnership is look at how Wales can prevent that harm that is experienced by communities, by bringing together evidence and expertise from a number of public sectors. The focus of this new agency is to ensure that we tackle the causes of crime in the first instance—looking at early intervention, looking at working in stronger, more effective partnership, having that more co-ordinated approach across those services and agencies. Some of those have been devolved and some are agencies that are reserved, such as the police and so on. So, what we are trying to look at in terms of the outputs of this work is better co-ordination and cohesion through our communities and these public services in Wales, using data and evidence more effectively to identify the risks more swiftly and to ensure that we target interventions more effectively and earlier. We know that there is excellent practice in some areas. Some of you will have heard about the Cardiff model, for example, where they looked at where there was crime of a particular kind happening in specific areas, and then they asked, 'Well, why is that happening? Why are there thefts from this shop on this street and not from that shop on that street? What are the factors?' Well, it could be, for example, things related to street lighting. It could be to do with CCTV being present, or where that street leads and whether it is somewhere the police patrol often. There are many different factors at play. By the same token, women's safety. There are some areas where there are attacks that can happen specifically on women, and we need to look at the community infrastructure, and not just the geography and street lighting and so on, but also whether we provide safe access to bus and train stations, for example. So, it's thinking about those questions to make those interventions and make decisions that would ultimately be able to prevent crime in the first instance. That's a practical response. That's the aim of the project. So, in terms of your question in terms of how this work is progressing, we are working with partners. We've already had a meeting with certain kinds of people—academics, representatives of the local authorities, representatives of the health service, representatives of the police forces in Wales—to have conversations about this. There is very wide-ranging support for this initiative. So, that's where we are at the moment. I can't give specific dates yet because what we are doing at the moment is deciding what the remit and structure of the agency will be. Before we decide that—and we are discussing that at the moment—that is the work that is being done and we haven't yet reached a conclusion on that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771285 161 Cy 2026-09-23T11:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6350&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771310 162 En 2026-09-23T11:18:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6544&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch. I'm sure we'll want to keep up to date on that as well. Diolch, Gadeirydd.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771311 163 En 2026-09-23T11:18:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6549&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you, Jayne. Laura Anne Jones. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771312 164 En 2026-09-23T11:18:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6550&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4562 4562 Laura Anne Jones https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4562 Jones, Laura Anne Diolch, Chair. In regard to community cohesion, I was just wondering about—. I'm interested in the cost of those programmes and how you're measuring success. But also, I think that—and I've banged on an awful lot since being a politician—sport is often very underestimated in terms of, as well as the physical, the mental health benefits of it. It's an enormous leveller and enabler in terms of ensuring community cohesion, actually, and it's something that we don't perhaps use enough. So, how are you working—my question is to you—cross-Government to ensure that you re-emphasise the importance of community cohesion and use what we've already got in place to help with that? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771317 165 En 2026-09-23T11:19:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6597&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Absolutely agree with you. Absolutely agree with you as regards sport. I think it's something we probably all have seen in our own lives. I know, for instance, my son, when he was playing football and now rugby, would meet people not only from different schools, so he's extending the people and the families he's coming into contact with, but also the types of families he's coming into contact with. I absolutely agree with you that sport plays a crucial point here. One of the things that this Government really wants to do is work cross-portfolio. I see many, many opportunities within culture and sport to support the social justice agenda, specifically, as you mentioned, on cohesion, but in many other ways, too. I see it, again, as essential—being able to provide children who grow up in poverty with access to those opportunities. We know, very often, when you haven't got a lift to get to that away game, then that can cause you problems, and if you can't afford the kit, et cetera. My Cabinet colleague Heledd Fychan and I are having those conversations, and I would very much want to make sure that sport is something that we address within cohesion. One of the things that we do within cohesion—I was talking about volunteering in the third sector—is the community facilities programme, and that's really important in this. We provide capital grants to community organisations, to enhance their facilities, of all types, which includes sporting organisations, because we recognise, although sport isn't—. When I was first looking at it, I was thinking, 'Oh, why am I giving money to sports clubs?' I completely understand why I'm giving money to sports clubs, because they are absolutely essential to this agenda. I don't know if, Andrew, you just want to give a little bit of detail around the community facilities programme, because it does come to that broader point on cohesion as well. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771243 166 En 2026-09-23T11:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6650&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771283 167 En 2026-09-23T11:24:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6899&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771247 168 En 2026-09-23T11:21:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6713&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 2280 Andrew Charles Charles, Andrew Yes. So, the community facilities programme is a rolling capital programme that we've had for a number of years, and it provides capital grants to community groups to bring back buildings into use, improve facilities, but also to extend their use. And a lot of this actually is to do with some of the challenges that community groups face in terms of income generation, because some of these facilities can allow them to generate more income. There's quite a widespread criteria that we have for those facilities programmes, but they are delivered across the whole of Wales in communities. And the one thing that's really obvious from the programmes that we're seeing is that they are able to get match funding from other organisations, including generating their own funds, which shows you the kind of level of commitment that communities have in that programme. We currently have a £10 million programme. It's a rolling programme for facilities, and we publish all the relevant projects on the Government website, as and when they are agreed. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771249 169 Cy 2026-09-23T11:21:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6767&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Just to say on that, with the supplementary budget, we did put greater funding into this programme in that supplementary budget, because we recognise the value of that programme in terms of all the things it can reach across that portfolio. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771250 170 En 2026-09-23T11:22:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6787&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. The final topic we'll be going on to is the voluntary sector. Just to check now, would you be able to stay just a couple more minutes? 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771251 171 En 2026-09-23T11:22:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6795&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned I do have a really important meeting at 12:00— 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771252 172 En 2026-09-23T11:22:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6799&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub We'll be done in time— 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771254 173 En 2026-09-23T11:22:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6799&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned —but this is very important too. So, just a couple of minutes, perhaps another five minutes, if that's okay.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771257 174 En 2026-09-23T11:22:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6806&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub That's fine. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771258 175 En 2026-09-23T11:22:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6808&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Because I need to prepare for that one. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771259 176 En 2026-09-23T11:22:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6809&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub That's okay. Before we go on to the voluntary sector, Jane Dodds.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771261 177 Cy 2026-09-23T11:22:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6813&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Thank you very much. This touches on the next topic as well, to be honest. Unfortunately, during the sixth Senedd, we heard about the experiences of organisations that support refugees, for example. I just wanted to check and to hear from you how you have reached out to those organisations, for example, the council working here in Wales with refugees—just to hear a little bit about that, that's all. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771264 178 Cy 2026-09-23T11:23:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6844&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned We, of course, are continually—officials are continually—in touch with those organisations, of all types, who deliver on our work programmes. I have, since coming into post, attended the forum where the Welsh Refugee Council is a member, so I have heard directly from them about their experiences in that regard. But, of course, as a Government and as officials, we are ensuring that we hear from them about anything that interferes with their ability to deliver with what they're seeking to do to support our communities.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771267 179 Cy 2026-09-23T11:24:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6891&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 4983 4983 Jane Dodds https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4983 Dodds, Jane Thank you, Chair. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771268 180 En 2026-09-23T11:24:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6892&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Diolch. Elfed Williams. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771270 181 Cy 2026-09-23T11:24:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6896&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed Thank you. Cabinet Minister, I have three questions, but I want to make a few comments before coming to my questions. I'm sure that you would agree that the third sector is a very important one, a professional sector that is important to the preventative agenda. I have over 20 years of experience of working in this sector. I would like to draw attention to a piece in the evidence pack, page 17, on the voluntary sector—unfortunately, it's the English copy that I brought down with me. I'll just read out the first paragraph. This sector is 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771281 182 En 2026-09-23T11:24:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6936&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed 'facing pressures from rising cost, demand for services, recruitment and retention of staff and volunteers and uncertainty over funding.'  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771284 183 Cy 2026-09-23T11:24:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6946&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed That is entirely correct. As I said, I have 20 years of experience of working in this sector. Depending on short-term grants is a very serious problem. I want to focus more today on the matter of tendering in this sector. I was looking last night at the code of practice. I will read out a few clips from the code of practice on the 'Appropriate funding mechanism'. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771265 184 Cy 2026-09-23T11:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6950&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771271 185 En 2026-09-23T11:25:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6979&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed 'Ensure funders consider all options and choose the appropriate mechanism(s) that will effectively deliver agreed outcomes throughout the funding period.' 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771272 186 Cy 2026-09-23T11:25:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=6990&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed I would say that the funding system isn't fit for purpose as it currently stands. I will give examples of experiences that I've had in this area. I was running an advocacy service for over 12 years. In that period, I went through three tender processes. There was no increase in any one of those tender processes in terms of the funding that we received. We always had to try—in order to increase salaries and so on, one had to seek cuts to other costs. In the end, it got to the point where it was very hard to find those further cuts. The sector is facing that situation more broadly now, after 15, 20 years of a lack of funding into the sector. It gives the power, truth be told, to the organisation running the tender to save money. They don't have to increase—. The code of practice says that that shouldn't be happening, but on the ground it is happening.  The questions that I have are: would you as a Cabinet Minister possibly agree to look at alternative models for how we're going to fund this sector? More permanent contracts. The tender system is fine for ordering toilet roll or for road improvements and so on, but I don't think that it's fit for purpose for this particular sector. Will you look at how the sector, when there are contracts, if that is the ongoing situation, how an uplift can be made on an annual basis? I know of organisations that haven't had an uplift in 10, 15 years. And, to provide greater clarity, the advocacy sector that I worked within have tried to contact a Minister for that Minister to come in and discuss how the situation is impacting them. Would you commit to meeting with them? That would give clarity not only on this sector, but also how it's affecting the sector more broadly. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771279 187 Cy 2026-09-23T11:28:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7140&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much. The third sector is an absolutely essential part of supporting all the work that we've discussed this morning. I will be talking to my colleagues in the Cabinet about this. In a few weeks' time, I will be taking a paper to the Cabinet that deals with this specifically, because we have to consider the future relationship between the Government and the third sector, and also how we think about volunteering and so on. Of course, this is something that is underlined by our responsibilities under the Government of Wales Act 2006. So, I just want to state clearly for the record that I acknowledge how absolutely essential and important that relationship is, and that sector is, to the work of the Government. I do recognise, and I'm sure that all of us around this table could give examples of where things are tough for the sector. One of the challenges is the funding challenge, and that challenge of having to go through the process of seeking grants or funding, which can be an obstacle to the ability of that organisation to be successful and effective. So, I just want to assure you that I do acknowledge that and understand that. I do think that we have to get rid of those obstacles, as that would enable this sector to be prosperous and successful, and some important things are already happening in terms of this. In 2026-27, the current financial year, as part of a three-year agreement—which, as you say, is not always something that the sector sees—we are giving over £9 million to Third Sector Support Wales to help local groups, so that they are able to deal with fundraising and so on, and governance and so on, and the things that they need to do in order to be successful. And also, in order to enable people in this sector and these organisations to better cope with the requirements, perhaps in terms of governance or tendering, and so on, which they face, we have a programme called Newid, which is a £1.5 million programme that is a partnership between the WCVA, Cwmpas and ProMo Cymru, which seeks to offer support in terms of training, mentoring and—what's the word I'm reaching for here—digital ability, to assist them in the digital sphere to try to improve the skills that they need for the world that we're living in. But I fully accept your point, as I say, in terms of thinking about what we can do. The code of practice for funding that you referred to is an example of that desire that we have to be able to ensure that we spend money more effectively, more meaningfully and that it's easier to access. So, I do commit—. We know that there is a need and we will engage with the sector to hear from them and to learn from them about the barriers and challenges they currently face, as you've described, in order to ensure that, as we design and roll out our policies, and any funding or money that's backing those policies and projects, that we use the right financial methods for those organisations that we expect to deliver on those programmes. So, that point is absolutely vital and I do thank you for raising it. And if the committee more broadly has any views or evidence that they would like to share with us on that, as we develop this new relationship, which as I mentioned, which is cross-Government with the third sector, we would be grateful to receive that also. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771266 188 Cy 2026-09-23T11:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7250&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771290 189 Cy 2026-09-23T11:32:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7416&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12165 12165 Elfed Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12165 Williams, Elfed May I come back to the third question? This sector has been trying to contact the Government for over two years now and hasn't received any attention. They ask whether it would be possible for them to meet with the Minister, just to put forward the way that they work and what they see are the difficulties in the sector. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771298 190 Cy 2026-09-23T11:33:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7439&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Obviously, as I was saying, I will be taking— . The Cabinet will soon be committing, as a Government—. We'll be discussing this over the next few weeks for that exact reason. We, as a Government, need to define our relationship with the third sector. Of course, I do engage every day with members of the third sector, and with organisations such as the WCVA and so on. So, as a Minister, I am fully aware and have stated on the record that I acknowledge the importance of this sector, and so I would hope to make sure that that relationship is an effective one. I don't know if there's anything else specific that needs to be added on engagement with the third sector. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771308 191 En 2026-09-23T11:33:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7488&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 2280 Andrew Charles Charles, Andrew Can I just to add to that? We've currently got the third sector partnership council, which has been established for many years, and that's the main partnership kind of relationship that Government has with the sector, and the sector then feeds into those discussions. That includes concerns about the application of the code, but also wider concerns that the third sector may have. So, that's the infrastructure that we've got in place for those kinds of strategic issues to be raised, and that involves a conversation with the Deputy First Minister, but also conversations with Ministers on portfolio matters. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771313 192 En 2026-09-23T11:34:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7519&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Thank you. Just a really quick final question before we finish. Sarah Rees. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771314 193 En 2026-09-23T11:34:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7523&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah Quickly on that, I'd just like to know if there's any consideration of the attendance of Ministers and the effectiveness of TSPCs. And maybe it's something you want to come back to in future, Minister, but I'd like to ask whether there's been any assessment of the previous Welsh Government strategy on volunteering, and whether you've considered any link between the increased pressures in terms of the cost of living and the decrease in volunteering. Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771316 194 Cy 2026-09-23T11:34:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7545&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned These are very live issues. I hear that a number of the programmes that I have in my portfolio—. As I mentioned, we are entirely dependent on the third sector, and on volunteering as well, and I have recognised—. I spoke in the Gofod3 conference earlier this year and shared my appreciation and understanding and my desire to collaborate effectively with the third sector and volunteering in particular. Things have changed, haven't they? We have seen fewer people for all kinds of reasons, and I think it's accelerated since COVID, although we saw a great deal of volunteering during COVID, with many people around this table, I'm sure, running groups of volunteers. But the world changed very swiftly again, and there are pressures on people in terms of their time, and the cost of living again has an influence in this regard, I think. So, we will, as I said, be defining our relationship. In terms of the TSPs, we will be discussing our relationship, and volunteering will be part of that. Andrew, I don't know if you wanted to add to that. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771746 195 Cy 2026-09-23T11:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7550&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771771 196 En 2026-09-23T11:38:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7740&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771752 197 En 2026-09-23T11:36:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7628&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 2280 Andrew Charles Charles, Andrew Yes, just to update. The volunteering policy existed in 2015. In the last couple of years, there was a voluntary sector cross-sector leadership group that looked at that volunteering policy. It concluded that it needed to be updated, and so, last year, 'A new approach to volunteering' was published. The conversation we're having now is around what does that look like over this Senedd term, given the Ministers' and the Government's commitments. And as the Deputy First Minister has said, that conversation is happening with Cabinet shortly and with officials. But I just want to put on the record the recognition of that work. I think you're right; volunteering has changed significantly over those 10 years—very different pressures on volunteers—and therefore the response from Government and the sector needs to change. And that has been a really important part of this work, working with the county voluntary councils, which are actually a really important part of the third sector and volunteering infrastructure in Wales. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771760 198 En 2026-09-23T11:37:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7676&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Diolch. Okay. That brings this scrutiny session to a close, then. Diolch yn fawr, Deputy First Minister, for your evidence this morning. A transcript of proceedings will be shared with you to check for accuracy. Thank you once again for attending, and for your time. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771761 199 Cy 2026-09-23T11:37:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7688&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 8670 8670 Sioned Williams https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8670 Williams, Sioned Thank you very much. And I do look forward to hearing from you and sharing in the work of the committee as we proceed. So, I'll be very interested to see your work programme and the inquiries you'll be undertaking, and I look forward to responding to them. Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771764 200 En 2026-09-23T11:37:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7704&l=en 260923-2 2. General scrutiny session: Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.  16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771769 201 En 2026-09-23T11:37:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7722&l=en 260923-3 3. Papers to note C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Okay. So, we will move on, then, to item 3 on the agenda, which is papers to note. So, hopefully, you will have seen that there are seven papers before the committee today. Are Members content to note the papers? Yes, happy. Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771773 202 Cy 260923-4 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix). 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771774 203 Cy 260923-4 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion moved. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771775 204 En 2026-09-23T11:38:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16247?startPos=7740&l=en 260923-4 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting C 12141 12141 Zaynub Akbar https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12141 Akbar, Zaynub Moving on to item 4, which is a motion to go into private for the remainder of today's session, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content to do that? Yes. Thank you. 16247 7 2026-09-23T09:29:16 771776 205 Cy 260923-4 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 11:38.