Y Cyfarfod Llawn - Y Bumed Senedd

Plenary - Fifth Senedd


Cyfarfu'r Cynulliad am 13:30 gyda'r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair. 

The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Cwestiynau i Weinidog yr Amgylchedd, Ynni a Materion Gwledig
1. Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

Yr eitem gyntaf ar ein hagenda ni y prynhawn yma yw'r cwestiynau i Weinidog yr Amgylchedd, Ynni a Materion Gwledig. Ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Mark Isherwood. 

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs. And the first question is from Mark Isherwood.

Tlodi Tanwydd
Fuel Poverty

1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am strategaeth tlodi tanwydd Llywodraeth Cymru? OAQ54981

1. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's fuel poverty strategy? OAQ54981

I expect the new plan for tackling fuel poverty in Wales to be published for consultation in February. It will be informed by the landscape review on fuel poverty published by the Wales Audit Office on 3 October.

Rwy'n disgwyl i'r cynllun newydd ar gyfer trechu tlodi tanwydd yng Nghymru gael ei gyhoeddi ar gyfer ymgynghori ym mis Chwefror. Bydd yn cael ei lywio gan yr adolygiad tirwedd ar dlodi tanwydd a gyhoeddwyd gan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru ar 3 Hydref.

Thank you. As you know, we were looking forward to the fuel poverty strategy consultation hopefully being published this month, and the final plan next month. Last week, the Residential Landlords Association gave evidence to the Assembly's Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee inquiry into fuel poverty, and called, quote, 'for a more holistic approach', saying that properties tackled by the current strategy have so far only been in some of the most deprived areas, and there will be many fuel-poor occupiers in homes in more affluent areas as well. And, amongst other calls, they called for the least fuel efficient homes to be targeted first, such as those properties with a low energy efficiency rating, including those in the private rented sector, and support for tenants. 

Last October, the Bevan Foundation report in this area found that the richest households benefited most from current fuel poverty or previous fuel poverty strategies, where the number of wealthier households in fuel poverty had fallen by 75 per cent, but, in the poorest households, only 25 per cent, and they said that provided an indication as to why the Welsh Government had failed in its target to eradicate fuel poverty. 

Notwithstanding the overall reduction in the number of properties in fuel poverty, this identifies perhaps a need for a particular new focus. How will your new strategy address these concerns, and when do you expect the plan now to be published?

Diolch. Fel y gwyddoch, roeddem yn edrych ymlaen at gyhoeddi ymgynghoriad y strategaeth tlodi tanwydd y mis hwn, a'r cynllun terfynol y mis nesaf. Yr wythnos diwethaf, rhoddodd y Gymdeithas Landlordiaid Preswyl dystiolaeth i ymchwiliad Pwyllgor Newid Hinsawdd, Amgylchedd a Materion Gwledig y Cynulliad i dlodi tanwydd, gan alw, dyfynnaf, 'am ddull mwy cyfannol', gan ddweud mai eiddo yn rhai o'r ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig yn unig y mae’r strategaeth gyfredol wedi mynd i'r afael â hwy hyd yn hyn, a bod llawer o feddianwyr sy'n dlawd o ran tanwydd yn byw mewn cartrefi mewn ardaloedd mwy cyfoethog hefyd. Ac ymhlith galwadau eraill, fe wnaethant alw am dargedu’r cartrefi lleiaf effeithlon o ran tanwydd yn gyntaf, megis eiddo â sgôr effeithlonrwydd ynni isel, gan gynnwys y rheini yn y sector rhentu preifat, a chymorth i denantiaid.

Fis Hydref y llynedd, canfu adroddiad Sefydliad Bevan yn y maes hwn mai'r aelwydydd cyfoethocaf sy’n elwa fwyaf o'r strategaeth tlodi tanwydd gyfredol neu strategaethau tlodi tanwydd blaenorol, lle roedd nifer yr aelwydydd cyfoethocach mewn tlodi tanwydd wedi gostwng 75 y cant, ond 25 y cant yn unig ymhlith yr aelwydydd tlotaf, ac roeddent yn dweud bod hynny'n arwydd pam fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi methu cyrraedd ei tharged i drechu tlodi tanwydd.

Er y gostyngiad cyffredinol yn nifer yr eiddo mewn tlodi tanwydd, mae hyn yn dangos efallai fod angen ffocws newydd penodol. Sut y bydd eich strategaeth newydd yn mynd i'r afael â'r pryderon hyn, a phryd y disgwyliwch i'r cynllun gael ei gyhoeddi?

So, I think you're right: we do need to make sure that we are tackling the most deprived households first, in my view, and, certainly, if we had more funding, then we would be able to spread it much more widely. We have made some real progress over the past 10, 11 years, and we've improved the energy efficiency of more than 55,000 homes, and we've also been able to support over 129,000 people, but there are still far too many people living in fuel poverty in Wales.

Obviously, as part of the new strategy, we can look at having that new focus, and I'd be very happy to get any evidence that's been given, and I'm very aware of the climate change committee's report into fuel poverty, and they're currently taking oral evidence. And, whilst their report will probably be published too late to have an impact on the strategy that we'll be publishing next month, I'm sure it will help us as we take the policy forward. 

Credaf eich bod yn llygad eich lle: mae angen i ni sicrhau ein bod yn mynd i'r afael â'r cartrefi mwyaf difreintiedig yn gyntaf, yn fy marn i, ac yn sicr, pe bai gennym fwy o arian, gallem ei ledaenu'n llawer ehangach. Rydym wedi gwneud cynnydd gwirioneddol dros y 10, 11 mlynedd diwethaf, ac rydym wedi gwella effeithlonrwydd ynni mewn mwy na 50,000 o gartrefi, ac rydym hefyd wedi gallu cefnogi dros 129,000 o bobl, ond mae gormod o lawer o bobl yn dal i fyw mewn tlodi tanwydd yng Nghymru.

Yn amlwg, fel rhan o'r strategaeth newydd, gallwn edrych ar gael y ffocws newydd hwnnw, a buaswn yn falch iawn o gael unrhyw dystiolaeth a roddwyd, ac rwy'n ymwybodol iawn o adroddiad y pwyllgor newid hinsawdd ar dlodi tanwydd, ac maent yn casglu tystiolaeth lafar ar hyn o bryd. Ac er y bydd eu hadroddiad yn cael ei gyhoeddi'n rhy hwyr yn ôl pob tebyg i gael effaith ar y strategaeth y byddwn yn ei chyhoeddi fis nesaf, rwy'n siŵr y bydd yn ein helpu wrth i ni fwrw ymlaen â'r polisi.

I'm sure, Minister, that you'd agree with me that one key component to tackling fuel poverty is ensuring that people are able to get the right advice to, potentially, switch users—something that, particularly, a lot of older people find difficult—and also to see what grant schemes, what support, might be available. You'll be aware that the Welsh Government, from the new financial year, is making some quite big changes to the advice services, the structures of the advice services, that they fund, and I wonder if you'd be good enough to talk with the relevant Ministers about those proposed changes to ensure that people, especially those in our poorest communities, and, particularly, elderly citizens, can get access to timely advice, and advice in their own communities, and, of course, where appropriate, through the medium of Welsh.

Rwy'n siŵr, Weinidog, y byddech yn cytuno â mi mai un elfen allweddol o drechu tlodi tanwydd yw sicrhau bod pobl yn gallu cael y cyngor cywir i newid defnyddwyr, o bosibl—rhywbeth y mae pobl hŷn, yn enwedig, yn ei chael hi'n anodd ei wneud—a hefyd i weld pa gynlluniau grant, pa gymorth a allai fod ar gael. Fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru, yn y flwyddyn ariannol newydd, yn gwneud newidiadau eithaf sylweddol i'r gwasanaethau cynghori, strwythurau'r gwasanaethau cynghori y maent yn eu hariannu, a tybed a fyddech cystal â siarad â’r Gweinidogion perthnasol ynglŷn â’r newidiadau arfaethedig hynny er mwyn sicrhau bod pobl, yn enwedig y rheini yn ein cymunedau tlotaf, ac yn enwedig dinasyddion oedrannus, yn gallu cael mynediad at gyngor amserol, a chyngor yn eu cymunedau eu hunain, ac wrth gwrs, lle bo hynny'n briodol, drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

Absolutely, and I'm very happy to have those discussions with my relevant colleagues. I think it's also something that we need to look at within our energy service, because I think people don't tend to switch users. If I look at myself, I probably should do it; we should do it regularly, I think, and certainly look at the savings that could be made. But many of us don't have time to do that; some people don't know how to access that. You've referred to elderly people; I think they wouldn't know where to go for that advice. So, I think it's really important that we look at what advice services are doing in this area. So, yes, very happy to have those discussions. 

Yn sicr, ac rwy'n fwy na pharod i gael y trafodaethau hynny gyda fy nghyd-Aelodau perthnasol. Credaf ei fod hefyd yn rhywbeth y mae angen i ni edrych arno yn ein gwasanaeth ynni, gan na chredaf fod pobl yn tueddu i newid defnyddwyr. Os meddyliaf am fy hun, mae'n debyg y dylwn wneud hynny; dylem wneud hynny’n rheolaidd yn fy marn i, ac yn sicr, dylem edrych ar yr arbedion y gellid eu gwneud. Ond nid oes gan lawer ohonom amser i wneud hynny; nid yw rhai pobl yn gwybod sut i wneud hynny. Rydych wedi cyfeirio at bobl oedrannus; ni chredaf y byddent yn gwybod i ble y dylent fynd am y cyngor hwnnw. Felly, credaf ei bod yn bwysig iawn ein bod yn edrych ar yr hyn y mae gwasanaethau cynghori’n ei wneud yn y maes hwn. Felly, ydw, rwy’n fwy na pharod i gael y trafodaethau hynny.

Minister, those figures you quoted earlier—129,000 people being helped, 50,000 homes—is good news across Wales. But, of course, those programmes were underpinned very often by a guarantee offered from the Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency. Now, when those developers have gone wrong—either we've had a rogue developer, or we've had faulty materials, and, as a consequence, the homes have become damp and problematic—it is important, therefore, they're able to rely upon that guarantee to ensure those errors are rectified. I still have constituents who are raising concerns that they are having difficulty in getting those guarantees assured and delivered. Will you once again look at this programme to ensure that the guarantees are there for people, so that, when things do go wrong, they're able to have that and not have to spend thousands of pounds in rectifying errors, which they shouldn't have had to do?

Weinidog, y ffigurau a ddyfynnwyd gennych yn gynharach—129,000 o bobl yn cael cymorth, 50,000 o gartrefi—yn newyddion da ledled Cymru. Ond wrth gwrs, roedd y rhaglenni hynny'n seiliedig yn aml iawn ar warant a gynigiwyd gan yr Asiantaeth Gwarantau Inswleiddio Waliau Dwbl. Nawr, pan fo rhywbeth wedi mynd o’i le gyda’r datblygwyr hynny—naill ai rydym wedi cael datblygwr amheus, neu rydym wedi cael deunyddiau diffygiol, ac o ganlyniad, mae'r cartrefi wedi cael trafferth â lleithder ac yn broblemus—mae'n bwysig, felly, y gallant ddibynnu ar y warant honno i sicrhau bod y camgymeriadau hynny'n cael eu cywiro. Mae gennyf etholwyr o hyd sy'n lleisio pryderon eu bod yn ei chael hi’n anodd cael y gwarantau wedi'u sicrhau a'u cyflawni. A wnewch chi edrych eto ar y rhaglen hon er mwyn sicrhau bod y gwarantau yno i bobl, fel y gallant ddibynnu arnynt pan fydd pethau'n mynd o chwith a pheidio â gorfod gwario miloedd o bunnoedd i gywiro camgymeriadau, na ddylent orfod ei wneud?


Yes, the Member raises a very important point, and there are clearly some examples where people who've benefited from both UK and Welsh Government schemes designed to improve energy efficiency in their home—they've experienced problems, particularly with damp, and other associated problems. I know it is a matter of concern for a lot of Members, right across the Chamber—just yesterday, I met with our colleague Dawn Bowden, who's got concerns in her constituency. We know that, when it's installed and maintained correctly, it can significantly improve people's qualities of life and alleviate poverty in the way we've discussed. So, I am continuing to work with contractors; my officials are continuing to work with relevant bodies too, and I'd be very happy to update Members when I have more information.

Mae'r Aelod yn codi pwynt pwysig iawn, ac mae'n amlwg fod rhai enghreifftiau lle mae pobl sydd wedi elwa o gynlluniau Llywodraeth y DU a Llywodraeth Cymru a gynlluniwyd i wella effeithlonrwydd ynni yn eu cartref—maent wedi cael problemau, yn enwedig gyda lleithder, a phroblemau eraill cysylltiedig. Gwn ei fod yn achos pryder i lawer o Aelodau, ar draws y Siambr—ddoe ddiwethaf, cyfarfûm â'n cyd-Aelod, Dawn Bowden, sydd â phryderon yn ei hetholaeth. Pan fydd y pethau hyn yn cael eu gosod a'u cynnal yn gywir, gwyddom y gallant wella ansawdd bywyd pobl yn sylweddol a lleddfu tlodi yn y ffordd y trafodwyd gennym. Felly rwy'n parhau i weithio gyda chontractwyr; mae fy swyddogion yn parhau i weithio gyda chyrff perthnasol hefyd, ac rwy’n fwy na pharod i roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Aelodau pan fydd gennyf ragor i'w rhoi.

Rheoli Adnoddau Naturiol mewn Trefi a Dinasoedd
Managing Natural Resources in Towns and Cities

2. Pa gamau pellach y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i ddatblygu ei pholisi ar gyfer rheoli adnoddau naturiol mewn trefi a dinasoedd? OAQ54997

2. What further steps will the Welsh Government take to develop its policy for managing natural resources in towns and cities? OAQ54997

Thank you. The Welsh Government's 'Implementing the Natural Resources Policy: a snapshot report' is due to be published next month. Natural Resources Wales's area statements will play a key role in taking forward place-based approaches to help implement the priorities and opportunities in the natural resources policy.

Diolch. Disgwylir i 'Gweithredu'r Polisi Adnoddau Naturiol: ciplun' gael ei gyhoeddi gan Lywodraeth Cymru y mis nesaf. Bydd datganiadau ardal Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru yn chwarae rhan allweddol yn datblygu dulliau sy’n seiliedig ar le i helpu i weithredu'r blaenoriaethau a'r cyfleoedd yn y polisi adnoddau naturiol.

Thank you for that, Minister. Most people in Wales live in urban areas, and, in our inner urban areas, there are many issues around air quality and general lack of green space. So, I think improving those inner urban environments would connect people to the natural world more strongly, and I would hope would lead to better environmental behaviours—whether it's taking part in recycling schemes more effectively, or just generally supporting the great outdoors that we have in Wales. So, I'm interested, Minister, in schemes like Cynefin, which Welsh Government ran, I think, which was quite effective in my area of Newport East, for example. And in the Maindee area now, we have a group at the Maindee library—a group of volunteers, community groups—who have ideas to green the natural environment around the area, and are very interested in Welsh Government support and assistance for that sort of work. So, I'd be interested in what further steps Welsh Government might take to support such groups and to make sure that we do get that quality environment in our inner urban areas.

Diolch, Weinidog. Mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yng Nghymru yn byw mewn ardaloedd trefol, ac yn ein hardaloedd trefol mewnol, ceir llawer o broblemau sy’n ymwneud ag ansawdd aer a diffyg mannau gwyrdd yn gyffredinol. Felly, credaf y byddai gwella'r amgylcheddau trefol mewnol hynny yn cysylltu pobl yn gryfach â'r byd naturiol, a buaswn yn gobeithio y byddai hynny’n arwain at well ymddygiad amgylcheddol—boed hynny drwy gymryd rhan fwy effeithiol mewn cynlluniau ailgylchu, neu’n gyffredinol drwy gefnogi'r awyr agored gwych sydd gennym yng Nghymru. Felly mae gennyf ddiddordeb, Weinidog, mewn cynlluniau fel Cynefin, a gyflawnwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac a fu’n effeithiol iawn yn fy ardal i yn Nwyrain Casnewydd, er enghraifft. Ac yn ardal Maendy ar hyn o bryd, mae gennym grŵp yn llyfrgell Maendy—grŵp o wirfoddolwyr, grwpiau cymunedol—a chanddynt syniadau i wyrddu'r amgylchedd naturiol yn yr ardal, ac mae ganddynt gryn ddiddordeb yng nghefnogaeth a chymorth Llywodraeth Cymru i'r math hwnnw o waith. Felly byddai gennyf ddiddordeb mewn clywed pa gamau pellach y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru eu cymryd i gefnogi grwpiau o'r fath ac i sicrhau ein bod yn cael amgylchedd o safon yn ein hardaloedd trefol mewnol.

I very much agree with you in your appraisal of Cynefin. I think it was a scheme that operated—. The principles have been place-centred policies and priorities, and I think it facilitated very much in that partnership working to which you just referred. Since we had Cynefin, we've also introduced the enabling natural resources and well-being grant, the landfill disposals tax community scheme, and, just yesterday, you will have heard my colleague Hannah Blythyn launch the town-centre green infrastructure and biodiversity programme. That programme will very much support the implementation of environment schemes, and reflects the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 through the sustainable introduction of green infrastructure into town centres, so that it's not just environmental benefits, there are also social and economic benefits for local communities. Local authorities will have the funding for that, so, if anybody's interested listening today, they're able to find out how they can get involved by contacting their local authority.

Cytunaf yn llwyr â chi yn eich arfarniad o Cynefin. Credaf ei fod yn gynllun a fu'n gweithredu—. Yr egwyddorion oedd polisïau a blaenoriaethau a oedd yn canolbwyntio ar le, a chredaf ei fod wedi hwyluso llawer iawn o’r gwaith partneriaeth hwnnw y cyfeirioch chi ato. Ers i ni gael Cynefin, rydym hefyd wedi cyflwyno'r grant galluogi adnoddau naturiol a lles, cynllun cymunedau y dreth gwarediadau tirlenwi, a ddoe ddiwethaf, byddwch wedi clywed fy nghyd-Aelod, Hannah Blythyn, yn lansio'r rhaglen seilwaith gwyrdd a bioamrywiaeth ar gyfer canol trefi. Bydd y rhaglen honno’n cefnogi’r broses o roi cynlluniau amgylchedd ar waith, ac mae’n adlewyrchu Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau’r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015, drwy gyflwyno seilwaith gwyrdd yn gynaliadwy i ganol trefi, fel nad manteision amgylcheddol yn unig a geir, ond manteision cymdeithasol ac economaidd i gymunedau lleol hefyd. Bydd gan awdurdodau lleol gyllid ar gyfer hynny, felly, os oes diddordeb gan unrhyw un sy’n gwrando heddiw, gallant ddarganfod sut y gallant gymryd rhan drwy gysylltu â'u hawdurdod lleol.

Minister, in our urban renewal strategy, 'Liveable Cities', we in the Welsh Conservatives pledged to ensure that there was a minimum of 20 per cent urban tree canopy covering Wales by 2030. You will see the green town and city movement is now taking off all around the world, and we could really also be part of that, and leading it. I want to see the day when some of the current major arterial ways through our cities are greened for cyclists and pedestrians. And at the minute we desperately need to get to that place where we think differently.

Weinidog, yn ein strategaeth adnewyddu trefol, 'Dinasoedd Byw', gwnaeth y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig addewid i sicrhau bod o leiaf 20 y cant o frigdwf trefol yng Nghymru erbyn 2030. Fe welwch fod y mudiad trefi a dinasoedd gwyrdd bellach yn mynd o nerth i nerth ledled y byd, a gallem fod yn rhan o hynny hefyd mewn gwirionedd, ac yn ei arwain. Rwyf am weld y dydd pan fydd rhai o'r priffyrdd mwyaf drwy ein dinasoedd ar hyn o bryd yn cael eu gwyrddu ar gyfer beicwyr a cherddwyr. Ac ar hyn o bryd, mae taer angen inni ddechrau meddwl mewn ffordd wahanol.

I've been having discussions with both Hannah Blythyn and Ken Skates around this issue. I think you're right; we can really lead the way here. I'm about to launch—probably in April—the environmental growth plan, which was one of the First Minister's manifesto commitments. And we'll certainly be identifying funding for just those sorts of policies, where people can get involved looking at it from your doorstep. So, this will certainly, I think, help us move in the right direction.

Rwyf wedi bod yn cael trafodaethau gyda Hannah Blythyn a Ken Skates ynghylch y mater hwn. Credaf eich bod yn llygad eich lle; gallwn arwain yn hyn o beth. Rwyf ar fin lansio—ym mis Ebrill mae'n debyg—y cynllun twf amgylcheddol, a oedd yn un o ymrwymiadau maniffesto'r Prif Weinidog. Ac yn sicr, byddwn yn nodi cyllid ar gyfer yr union fathau hynny o bolisïau, lle gall pobl gymryd rhan wrth edrych arno o garreg eu drws. Felly yn sicr, credaf y bydd hyn yn ein helpu i symud i'r cyfeiriad cywir.

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Lefarwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Andrew R.T. Davies.  

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, there has been much conversation between you and me in this Chamber around nitrate vulnerable zones and, obviously, the environmental regulations you're looking to bring forward to control agricultural pollution, as you see it. Are you able to update us on what you told us in December, where you were having a pause in the process and you were rethinking and re-engaging with the sector to see what the regulations might finally look like? 

Diolch, Lywydd. Weinidog, rydych chi a minnau wedi cael llawer o drafodaethau yn y Siambr hon ynglŷn â pharthau perygl nitradau, ac yn amlwg, y rheoliadau amgylcheddol rydych yn awyddus i'w cyflwyno i reoli llygredd amaethyddol, fel rydych chi'n ei weld. A allwch roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ni am yr hyn a ddywedoch chi wrthym ym mis Rhagfyr, pan gawsoch saib yn y broses ac fe fuoch yn ailfeddwl ac yn ail-ymgysylltu â'r sector i weld sut olwg fyddai ar y rheoliadau yn y pen draw?

So, I think the last time we discussed this in the Chamber—. Well, there are two things to say: it's not perceived agricultural pollution—I think we know the number of incidents that we have of that—and I said to you that I would be receiving advice before the end of January. I received that advice on Monday. As you can imagine, it's a very large ministerial advice folder, which I am now reading, and I will be making an announcement, I would certainly hope, at the beginning of next month into the middle of next month. 

Y tro diwethaf i ni drafod hyn yn y Siambr—. Wel, mae dau beth i'w dweud: nid llygredd amaethyddol ymddangosiadol mohono—credaf ein bod yn ymwybodol o'r nifer o achosion o hynny sydd gennym—a dywedais wrthych y buaswn yn cael cyngor cyn diwedd mis Ionawr. Cefais y cyngor hwnnw ddydd Llun. Fel y gallwch ddychmygu, mae'n ffolder fawr iawn o gyngor gweinidogol, ac rwyf wrthi'n ei darllen, a byddaf yn gwneud cyhoeddiad, buaswn yn sicr yn gobeithio, rhwng dechrau'r mis nesaf a chanol y mis nesaf.

So, we can look forward to an announcement some time in February, I think, from that answer—

O'r ateb hwnnw, credaf y gallwn edrych ymlaen at gyhoeddiad ryw bryd ym mis Chwefror—

—that you just gave me. Will you be making available, prior to that announcement, the regulatory impact assessment, because it is vital that we understand exactly the costings of this, the implications to the industry, especially for some of the livestock sectors, the beef and sheep sector in particular? And why, as I understand it, when pollution incidents actually declined in 2019, and between 2001 and 2018, there's no discernible difference between the years on agricultural pollution, you believe it necessary to bring such draconian measures forward, when obviously the working group—[Interruption.]—the working group that the Welsh Government set up itself talked and looked at bringing forward a voluntary proposal that the regulator and the sector agreed would be of benefit to reducing pollution in the agricultural sector? 

—felly. A fyddwch yn sicrhau, cyn y cyhoeddiad hwnnw, fod yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol ar gael, gan ei bod hanfodol ein bod yn deall union gostau hyn, y goblygiadau i'r diwydiant, yn enwedig i rai o'r sectorau da byw, y sector cig eidion a defaid yn benodol? Ac yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, er bod nifer yr achosion o lygredd wedi gostwng mewn gwirionedd yn 2019, a rhwng 2001 a 2018, ac nad oes gwahaniaeth amlwg rhwng y blynyddoedd o ran llygredd amaethyddol, pam eich bod yn credu ei bod yn angenrheidiol cyflwyno mesurau mor llym, pan fo'r gweithgor, yn amlwg—[Torri ar draws.]—y gweithgor a sefydlwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru wedi trafod ac edrych ar gyflwyno cynnig gwirfoddol y cytunodd y rheoleiddiwr a'r sector y byddai o fudd i leihau llygredd yn y sector amaethyddol?

Well, I certainly don't think they're draconian. If you look at measures in other parts of the UK, I would say we're certainly not bringing forward draconian measures, if you compare them to other parts of the UK. But that's not an issue for me. And I'll just give you some figures so that you can understand that what you've said—I think I heard you rightly—is not correct.

So, the number of agricultural pollution incidents in 2019, at the current time, stands at 157. That's unsubstantiated, because we haven't got all the figures finalised for 2019. That figure of 157 already exceeds the average of the last 10 years, which is 151. It's higher than in 2015, it's higher than in 2016, and it's higher than in 2017. The figure for 2018 is the highest that we've had for the period since 2001. So, for 17 years, the figure for 2018 was the highest, and that stood at 195 incidents. I'm sure you will agree with me this is a cause for great concern. It's unacceptable—the agricultural sector recognises it's unacceptable—and we have to do something about it. And you've got to think about also the cumulative impact of these incidents. 

Wel, yn sicr, ni chredaf eu bod yn llym. Os edrychwch ar fesurau mewn rhannau eraill o'r DU, buaswn yn dweud yn sicr nad ydym yn cyflwyno mesurau llym, o gymharu â rhannau eraill o'r DU. Ond nid yw hynny'n fater i mi. A rhoddaf rai ffigurau i chi fel y gallwch ddeall nad yw'r hyn rydych wedi'i ddweud—credaf i mi eich clywed yn iawn—yn gywir.

Felly, ar hyn o bryd, nifer yr achosion o lygredd amaethyddol yn 2019 oedd 157. Nid yw'r ffigur hwnnw wedi'i gadarnhau, gan nad yw'r holl ffigurau ar gyfer 2019 yn derfynol eto. Mae'r ffigur hwnnw o 157 eisoes yn uwch na'r cyfartaledd ar gyfer y 10 mlynedd diwethaf, sef 151. Mae'n uwch nag yn 2015, mae'n uwch nag yn 2016, ac mae'n uwch nag yn 2017. Y ffigur ar gyfer 2018 yw'r uchaf a gawsom yn y cyfnod ers 2001. Felly, mewn 17 mlynedd, y ffigur ar gyfer 2018 oedd yr uchaf, sef 195 o achosion. Rwy'n siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno â mi fod hyn yn achos cryn bryder. Mae'n annerbyniol—mae'r sector amaethyddol yn cydnabod ei fod yn annerbyniol—ac mae'n rhaid inni wneud rhywbeth yn ei gylch. Ac mae'n rhaid i chi feddwl hefyd am effaith gronnol yr achosion hyn.

I agree with you. One incident is one too many, and ultimately the agricultural industry wants to do all it can to make sure that these pollution incidents are reduced. But you yourself said in 2018 there were 190 incidents reported. I think the figure you gave for 2019 was 157, which showed a downward trajectory. And can it be right to respond to these numbers with what is, in effect, a cut and paste of NVZ zones that have been put in other parts of the United Kingdom? There surely is a better way of doing this, working collaboratively with the sector to make sure that we get on top of these incidents—because, as I said, one incident is one too many; I accept that—and, above all, that there is capital funding put in place, so, whatever measures you bring forward via the regulations, the sector can apply for capital funding to make some of the improvements that the regulations will demand of them. So, can you confirm today, that, in tandem with what you're looking at with the regulations, you are also looking at the availability of capital funding and any money that might be left over in the rural development plan, or any money that you might be able to secure from the finance Minister, who is in her place this afternoon?

Rwy'n cytuno â chi. Mae un achos yn un achos yn ormod, ac yn y pen draw, mae'r diwydiant amaethyddol yn awyddus i wneud popeth yn ei allu i leihau nifer yr achosion hyn o lygredd. Ond fe ddywedoch eich hun fod 190 o achosion wedi'u hadrodd yn 2018. Credaf mai'r ffigur a roesoch ar gyfer 2019 oedd 157, sy'n dangos tuedd ar i lawr. Ac a yw'n iawn ymateb i'r niferoedd hyn drwy efelychu, i bob pwrpas, y parthau perygl nitradau a roddwyd ar waith mewn rhannau eraill o'r Deyrnas Unedig? Does bosibl nad oes ffordd well o wneud hyn, gan weithio ar y cyd â'r sector i sicrhau ein bod yn cadw'r achosion hyn dan reolaeth—oherwydd fel y dywedais, mae un achos yn un achos yn ormod; rwy'n derbyn hynny—ac yn anad dim, rhoi cyllid cyfalaf ar waith, felly, ni waeth pa fesurau a gyflwynwch drwy'r rheoliadau, gall y sector wneud cais am gyllid cyfalaf i wneud rhai o'r gwelliannau a fydd yn ofynnol o dan y rheoliadau. Felly, a allwch gadarnhau heddiw, ochr yn ochr â'r hyn rydych yn edrych arno gyda'r rheoliadau, eich bod yn edrych ar argaeledd cyllid cyfalaf ac unrhyw arian a allai fod yn weddill yn y cynllun datblygu gwledig, neu unrhyw arian y gallech ei gael gan y Gweinidog cyllid, sy'n bresennol y prynhawn yma?

We'll start with the capital funding. So, I've said all along that we will be able to provide additional capital funding in relation to this, but not to bring farms up to the legal standard now, because, at the moment, we've got data that's being collected through our Natural Resources Wales dairy officer visits to the farms, and that indicates approximately 60 per cent of dairy farms lack sufficient slurry storage now. So, I'm not giving additional funding to bring those farms up to the legal capacity. However, I said all along, both in this Chamber and outside, that we will look to provide some additional capital funding. 

I go back to what I was saying about 2019: it's 157, but that figure has not yet been finalised, as some cases are still under review. So, that is not the final figure, I believe, for 2019. Again, I've spoken about this many, many times with stakeholders, with the farming unions. I want to work in collaboration with them. We've had the voluntary approach, it hasn't worked in the way that we wanted. One of the reasons—. We did say we would announce this at the beginning of January, but because we were getting more and more evidence—. You referred to the fact that there was a pause, it wasn't a pause, I just wanted to make sure that the advice that came to me was as thorough as we could possibly have.

Fe ddechreuwn ni gyda'r cyllid cyfalaf. Felly, rwyf wedi dweud ers y cychwyn y byddwn yn gallu darparu cyllid cyfalaf ychwanegol mewn perthynas â hyn, ond nid er mwyn sicrhau bod ffermydd yn cyrraedd y safon gyfreithiol yn awr, oherwydd ar hyn o bryd, mae gennym ddata a gasglwyd gan swyddog llaeth Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru sy'n ymweld â'r ffermydd, ac mae'r data'n dangos nad oes gan oddeutu 60 y cant o ffermydd llaeth storfeydd slyri digonol ar hyn o bryd. Felly, nid wyf am ddarparu cyllid ychwanegol er mwyn sicrhau bod y capasiti cyfreithiol ar y ffermydd hynny. Fodd bynnag, rwyf wedi dweud ers y cychwyn, yn y Siambr hon a thu allan, y byddwn yn ceisio darparu rhywfaint o arian cyfalaf ychwanegol.

Dychwelaf at yr hyn roeddwn yn ei ddweud am 2019: mae'n 157, ond nid y ffigur hwnnw yw'r ffigur terfynol, gan fod rhai achosion yn dal i gael eu hadolygu. Felly, ni chredaf mai hwnnw yw'r ffigur terfynol ar gyfer 2019. Unwaith eto, rwyf wedi siarad am hyn lawer gwaith gyda rhanddeiliaid, gydag undebau'r ffermwyr. Rwyf am weithio ar y cyd â hwy. Rydym wedi cael y dull gwirfoddol, ac nid yw wedi gweithio yn y ffordd roeddem yn dymuno. Un o'r rhesymau—. Fe ddywedasom y byddem yn cyhoeddi hyn ddechrau mis Ionawr, ond gan ein bod yn cael mwy a mwy o dystiolaeth—. Fe gyfeirioch chi at y ffaith i ni gael saib, ond nid saib ydoedd, roeddwn yn awyddus i sicrhau fy mod yn cael y cyngor mwyaf trylwyr y gallem ei gael.


You've just told us there were 157 incidents in 2019. Yes, 157 pollution incidents are 157 too many. Of course, there's no mention of the 30,000 sewage pollution incidents in 2018. So, I think we do need a little bit of perspective when we discuss these issues.

Now, you mentioned that you wanted to work in collaboration. I'd commend that. You might wish to collaborate with Natural Resources Wales, who told us that 92 per cent of Wales's agricultural land is not at risk of causing nitrate pollution, and their advice is that we move from the current 2.3 per cent of Wales as designated NVZ to 8 per cent.

Now, your regulatory impact assessment, or the draft RIA, considered only two options: one was the 'do nothing' option, which nobody, not even the farming unions, is advocating; and the other was to apply measures to address agricultural pollution to the whole of Wales. So, why did your RIA only focus on the two extremes, one of which was never a realistic option in the first place?

Rydych newydd ddweud wrthym y bu 157 o achosion yn 2019. Ydy, mae 157 achos o lygredd yn 157 achos yn ormod. Wrth gwrs, nid oes unrhyw sôn am y 30,000 achos o lygredd carthion yn 2018. Felly, credaf fod angen ychydig o bersbectif arnom wrth drafod y materion hyn.

Nawr, dywedasoch eich bod yn awyddus i weithio ar y cyd. Buaswn yn cymeradwyo hynny. Efallai yr hoffech weithio gyda Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, a ddywedodd wrthym nad yw 92 y cant o dir amaethyddol Cymru mewn perygl o achosi llygredd nitradau, a'u cyngor yw ein bod yn cynyddu'r 2.3 y cant o Gymru sy'n barthau perygl nitradau dynodedig ar hyn o bryd i 8 y cant.

Nawr, dau opsiwn yn unig a ystyriwyd yn eich asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol, neu'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol drafft: un oedd yr opsiwn 'gwneud dim byd', nad oes unrhyw un, hyd yn oed undebau'r ffermwyr, o'i blaid; a'r llall oedd defnyddio mesurau i fynd i'r afael â llygredd amaethyddol ledled Cymru gyfan. Felly, pam fod eich asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol wedi canolbwyntio ar y ddau eithaf yn unig, yn enwedig gan nad oedd un ohonynt erioed yn opsiwn realistig yn y lle cyntaf?

The reason I have had a pause, or a delay, in bringing these regulations forward is because, as I said, I wanted to look at the most evidence that was available to us. I certainly saw the first draft of the RIA. I am now approaching—. In my very large folder, I think the RIA is about document 18. I'm coming to that. I will see what difference there is from the draft, if any, but I'm not in a position to answer that specific question at the current time, because I am reviewing all the evidence that we've got. 

You're quite right: we see pollution right across Wales in different forms. Diffuse pollution is equally important. And, again, NRW had their 'Challenges and Choices' consultation in 2019. Again, that identified diffuse pollution from the agricultural sector as the reason for 113 water bodies across Wales failing to meet good status. So, there are lots of issues around pollution that we need to be looking at, because it's imperative that we sort this problem out now.

Y rheswm pam y cefais saib, neu gyfnod o oedi, wrth gyflwyno'r rheoliadau hyn yw fy mod yn awyddus i edrych, fel y dywedais, ar gymaint o dystiolaeth ag a oedd ar gael i ni. Yn sicr, gwelais ddrafft cyntaf yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol. Rwyf bellach yn dod—. Yn fy ffolder fawr iawn, credaf mai dogfen 18 yw'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol. Rwy'n dod ato. Byddaf yn gweld pa wahaniaeth sydd rhwng hwnnw a'r drafft, os o gwbl, ond nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i ateb y cwestiwn penodol hwnnw ar hyn o bryd, gan fy mod yn adolygu'r holl dystiolaeth sydd gennym.

Rydych yn llygad eich lle: rydym yn gweld llygredd ledled Cymru ar wahanol ffurfiau. Mae llygredd gwasgaredig yr un mor bwysig. Ac unwaith eto, cynhaliodd CNC eu hymgynghoriad 'Heriau a Dewisiadau' yn 2019. Unwaith eto, nododd yr ymgynghoriad hwnnw mai llygredd gwasgaredig o'r sector amaethyddol oedd y rheswm pam fod 113 o gyrff dŵr ledled Cymru wedi methu cyflawni statws da. Felly, mae angen inni edrych ar lawer o faterion sy'n ymwneud â llygredd, gan ei bod yn hanfodol ein bod yn datrys y broblem hon ar unwaith.

But the fact remains that NRW is not supporting the proposal to make the whole of Wales an NVZ, and whilst there are incidents and those need to be tackled, clearly they feel that doing so across 8 per cent of Wales would be sufficient to address the issue. We all look forward to seeing the regulatory impact assessment, because the draft one was only a 20-page document, and for a change this substantial, then we really need something a bit more robust than that. I'll leave it at that.

But of course, if you want to pursue a whole-territory approach, then we need to be convinced that that is the best way forward. I'm not convinced, and I haven't seen the evidence out there that tells us that a whole-territory NVZ will actually be effective in reducing agricultural pollution. Because information obtained, again from Natural Resources Wales, provides no substantive evidence of the effectiveness of the NVZ action programme in reducing agricultural pollution, despite designations dating back to 2002. We've seen numerous scientific research papers that consider the effectiveness or otherwise of NVZs, and they tell us that the approach has little or no effect, with some highlighting actually detrimental effects as well. One study found, and I quote:

'that 69% of NVZs showed no significant improvement in surface water concentrations even after 15 years. In comparison to a control catchment, 29% of NVZs showed a significant improvement'—

that's positive—

'but 31% showed a significant worsening.'

So, where's your evidence that a whole-territory NVZ approach will actually have the effect that so many of us want to see?

Ond y ffaith amdani yw nad yw CNC yn cefnogi'r cynnig i wneud Cymru gyfan yn barth perygl nitradau, ac er bod achosion y mae angen mynd i'r afael â hwy, mae'n amlwg eu bod yn teimlo y byddai gwneud hynny ar draws 8 y cant o Gymru yn ddigonol i fynd i'r afael â'r mater. Mae pob un ohonom yn edrych ymlaen at weld yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol, gan mai dogfen 20 tudalen yn unig oedd y drafft, ac am newid mor sylweddol â hwn, mae gwir angen rhywbeth ychydig yn fwy cadarn na hynny. Fe'i gadawaf yn y fan yna.

Ond wrth gwrs, os ydych am fabwysiadu ymagwedd tiriogaeth gyfan, mae angen i ni fod yn sicr mai dyna'r ffordd orau ymlaen. Nid wyf yn sicr, ac nid wyf wedi gweld tystiolaeth sy'n dweud wrthym y bydd parth perygl nitradau tiriogaeth gyfan yn effeithiol o ran lleihau llygredd amaethyddol. Oherwydd nid yw'r wybodaeth a gafwyd, eto gan Gyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, yn darparu unrhyw dystiolaeth sylweddol o effeithiolrwydd rhaglen weithredu'r parthau perygl nitradau yn lleihau llygredd amaethyddol, er bod y dynodiadau'n dyddio'n ôl i 2002. Rydym wedi gweld nifer o bapurau ymchwil gwyddonol sy'n ystyried effeithiolrwydd parthau perygl nitradau, neu fel arall, a dywedant wrthym nad yw'r dull yn cael fawr o effaith, os o gwbl, gyda rhai'n tynnu sylw at effeithiau niweidiol hefyd. Canfu un astudiaeth, a dyfynnaf:

na chafwyd unrhyw welliant sylweddol mewn 69% o barthau perygl nitradau mewn crynodiadau dŵr wyneb hyd yn oed ar ôl 15 mlynedd. O gymharu â dalgylch rheoli, cafwyd gwelliant sylweddol mewn 29% o barthau perygl nitradau—

mae hynny'n gadarnhaol—

ond cafwyd gwaethygiad sylweddol mewn 31% ohonynt.

Felly, ble mae eich tystiolaeth y bydd dull parth perygl nitradau tiriogaeth gyfan yn cael yr effaith y mae cymaint ohonom am ei gweld?

As I said, I'm currently—. There haven't been that many hours that I've been awake and not been in work to give me that time to read, as I say, this very, very large body of evidence, which I want to give my full consideration to.

We had a consultation on this back in 2016. This is not something that we're rushing towards. This has been a very long process. Some would say too long. But it's really important that we get it right, and I will publish as much as I can to show how that policy has been derived.

Fel y dywedais, ar hyn o bryd, rwyf—. Nid oes digon o oriau wedi bod pan wyf wedi bod yn effro a heb fod yn gweithio i gael amser i ddarllen, fel y dywedaf, y corff mawr iawn hwn o dystiolaeth, a hoffwn roi fy ystyriaeth lawn iddo.

Cawsom ymgynghoriad ar hyn yn ôl yn 2016. Nid yw hyn yn rhywbeth rydym yn rhuthro tuag ato. Mae hon wedi bod yn broses hir iawn. Byddai rhai yn dweud ei bod wedi bod yn rhy hir. Ond mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod yn gwneud hyn yn iawn, a byddaf yn cyhoeddi cymaint ag y gallaf i ddangos sut y mae'r polisi hwnnw wedi'i lunio.


It just begs the question: how much consideration had you given to previous iterations of these proposals, or whether you had been involved at all? Because you sound as if you're disowning what we've had so far, because you haven't had a chance to look at the file that you've now been provided with. So, I think that there are big questions there about who's making decisions or bringing forward suggestions around this.

Now, I've hinted earlier that there could well be unforeseen—or maybe foreseen—negative consequences from what seemed to be your previous approach. Now, we not only know that there are huge spikes in nitrate levels in those areas where we've seen, in the past, closed periods—you know, nitrates spiking immediately before the closed period and immediately after, for obvious reasons—but also, there is concern that there could well be a loss of cattle from Welsh farms and a subsequent reduction in mixed grazing on Welsh uplands.

Now, farms with 20 or 30 suckler cows are not going to invest tens of thousands of pounds in new infrastructure to meet the requirements of these new regulations, because that is wholly disproportionate to the low levels of stock that they keep. They're telling me that the choice for them, therefore, is to go out of cattle farming, and that will bring with it, of course, the subsequent consequences to upland habitats and biodiversity, but also to the wider beef sector here in Wales.

Environmental organisations are concerned about that potential outcome. Hybu Cig Cymru is also concerned at the potential outcome to the wider beef sector. Nobody here is saying, 'Don't do anything'—that needs to be understood and heard by everyone—but as far as I'm concerned, so far, the Government has clearly failed to make the case for your proposals, or to provide evidence that justifies the approach that you seem to wish to pursue.

So, I would ask you to revisit again these proposals and, please, to look at the 45 recommendations that came from the agricultural pollution sub-group, which should have been properly considered as part of the regulatory impact assessment that has been available in draft form.

Mae'n gofyn y cwestiwn: faint o ystyriaeth roeddech wedi'i rhoi i iteriadau blaenorol o'r cynigion hyn, neu a fuoch yn rhan ohonynt o gwbl? Oherwydd rydych yn swnio fel pe baech yn diystyru'r hyn rydym wedi'i gael hyd yn hyn, gan nad ydych wedi cael cyfle i edrych ar y ffeil a ddarparwyd i chi. Felly, credaf fod cwestiynau mawr i'w gofyn ynglŷn â phwy sy'n gwneud penderfyniadau neu'n cyflwyno awgrymiadau ynglŷn â hyn.

Nawr, rwyf wedi awgrymu eisoes y gallai fod canlyniadau negyddol annisgwyl—neu ddisgwyliedig, efallai—yn sgil eich dull blaenorol o fynd ati. Nawr, nid yn unig y gwyddom fod cynnydd enfawr mewn lefelau nitradau yn yr ardaloedd hynny lle rydym wedi gweld, yn y gorffennol, cyfnodau gwaharddedig—cynnydd mewn nitradau yn union cyn y cyfnod gwaharddedig ac yn syth ar ei ôl, am resymau amlwg—ond hefyd, ceir pryder y gallai ffermydd Cymru golli gwartheg, a gostyngiad dilynol o ran pori cymysg ar ucheldir Cymru.

Nawr, nid yw ffermydd ag 20 neu 30 o fuchod sugno yn mynd i fuddsoddi degau o filoedd o bunnoedd mewn seilwaith newydd i fodloni gofynion y rheoliadau newydd hyn, gan fod hynny'n gwbl anghymesur â'r lefelau isel o stoc y maent yn eu cadw. Dywedant wrthyf mai'r dewis iddynt hwy, felly, yw rhoi'r gorau i ffermio gwartheg, a bydd hynny, wrth gwrs, yn arwain at ganlyniadau dilynol i fioamrywiaeth a chynefinoedd yr ucheldir, ond hefyd i'r sector cig eidion ehangach yma yng Nghymru.

Mae sefydliadau amgylcheddol yn poeni am y canlyniad posibl hwnnw. Mae Hybu Cig Cymru hefyd yn pryderu am y canlyniad posibl i'r sector cig eidion ehangach. Nid oes unrhyw un yma yn dweud, 'Peidiwch â gwneud unrhyw beth'—mae angen i bawb ddeall a chlywed hynny—ond o'm rhan i, hyd yn hyn, mae'r Llywodraeth yn amlwg wedi methu dadlau'r achos dros eich cynigion, neu ddarparu tystiolaeth sy'n cyfiawnhau'r dull rydych yn awyddus i'w fabwysiadu yn ôl pob golwg.

Felly, hoffwn ofyn i chi ailedrych ar y cynigion hyn, ac os gwelwch yn dda, i edrych ar y 45 o argymhellion a gafwyd gan yr is-grŵp llygredd amaethyddol, a ddylai fod wedi cael eu hystyried yn briodol fel rhan o'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol sydd wedi bod ar gael ar ffurf drafft.

To start with your first point, I'm certainly not disowning. I've been very involved since I've been in this portfolio. I mentioned there'd been a consultation before I came into portfolio; it was one of the very first things on my desk. What came from that was a voluntary approach: working with the farming unions particularly, and other stakeholders. You may be aware of a scheme that came forward from two Pembrokeshire farmers; I worked with the farming unions to make sure that voluntary scheme had time to work. You can see by the number of incidents it's clearly not working. That's why we have to do something now. That's why we have to move to regulation. So, that's in answer to your first point. The advice that I've been given this week is the advice that I've been waiting for around regulation, and I've certainly given it my very thorough time and consideration, because as I say, we need to get this absolutely right.

Regarding your second point, every farm is different, so it's really not possible to specify exactly which measures would apply to an upland farm, for example. You're talking about thousands and thousands of pounds when we don't know what each farm will need. I've made it very clear that we will provide some additional capital funding, but not to bring farms up to legal requirement. So, I will be making an announcement, certainly by the middle of February, and obviously Members will be the first to hear.

Gan ddechrau gyda'ch pwynt cyntaf, yn sicr nid wyf yn diystyru unrhyw beth. Rwyf wedi chwarae rhan fawr yn hyn ers i mi fod â'r portffolio hwn. Soniais am yr ymgynghoriad a gynhaliwyd cyn i mi gael y portffolio; roedd yn un o'r pethau cyntaf ar fy nesg. Yr hyn a ddaeth ohono oedd ymagwedd wirfoddol: gweithio gydag undebau'r ffermwyr yn arbennig, a rhanddeiliaid eraill. Efallai eich bod yn ymwybodol o gynllun a gyflwynwyd gan ddau ffermwr o Sir Benfro; gweithiais gydag undebau'r ffermwyr i sicrhau bod y cynllun gwirfoddol yn cael amser i weithio. Gallwch weld o nifer yr achosion ei bod yn amlwg nad yw'n gweithio. Dyna pam fod yn rhaid i ni wneud rhywbeth ar unwaith. Dyna pam fod yn rhaid i ni symud tuag at reoleiddio. Felly, dyna'r ateb i'ch pwynt cyntaf. Y cyngor a roddwyd i mi yr wythnos hon yw'r cyngor rwyf wedi bod yn aros amdano ynghylch rheoleiddio, ac yn sicr, rwyf wedi rhoi amser ac ystyriaeth drylwyr iawn iddo, oherwydd fel y dywedaf, mae angen i ni gael hyn yn hollol iawn.

O ran eich ail bwynt, mae pob fferm yn wahanol, felly nid oes modd nodi'n union pa fesurau a fyddai'n berthnasol i fferm fynydd, er enghraifft. Rydych yn sôn am filoedd ar filoedd o bunnoedd pan nad ydym yn gwybod beth fydd ei angen ar bob fferm. Rwyf wedi dweud yn glir iawn y byddwn yn darparu rhywfaint o arian cyfalaf ychwanegol, ond nid er mwyn sicrhau bod ffermydd yn bodloni gofynion cyfreithiol. Felly, byddaf yn gwneud cyhoeddiad, yn sicr erbyn canol mis Chwefror, ac yn amlwg, yr Aelodau fydd y cyntaf i glywed.

Yr Adolygiad Brys o Reoliadau Lles Anifeiliaid (Bridio Cŵn) (Cymru) 2014
The Urgent Review of the Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2014

3. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru i'r argymhellion a nodwyd yn yr adolygiad brys o Reoliadau Lles Anifeiliaid (Bridio Cŵn) (Cymru) 2014 a gomisiynwyd ym mis Hydref 2019? OAQ54980

3. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government’s response to the recommendations set out in the urgent review of the Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2014 that was commissioned in October 2019? OAQ54980

5. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y cynnydd tuag at weithredu Deddf Lucy i reoleiddio ffermio cŵn bach yng Nghymru? OAQ54979

5. Will the Minister provide an update on progress towards the implementation of Lucy’s Law to regulate puppy farming in Wales? OAQ54979

Thank you. Presiding Officer, I understand you've given permission for questions 3 and 5 to be grouped. I will make a statement and publish the animal health and welfare framework group's report following February recess. The recommendations are comprehensive and include enforcement, training of local authority officials and vets, amendments to licence conditions, as well as consideration of other legislation linked to the breeding and selling of dogs.

Diolch. Lywydd, deallaf eich bod wedi rhoi caniatâd i gwestiynau 3 a 5 gael eu grwpio. Byddaf yn gwneud datganiad ac yn cyhoeddi adroddiad y grŵp fframwaith iechyd a lles anifeiliaid yn dilyn toriad mis Chwefror. Mae'r argymhellion yn gynhwysfawr ac yn cynnwys gorfodi, hyfforddi milfeddygon a swyddogion awdurdodau lleol, diwygiadau i amodau trwyddedau, yn ogystal ag ystyried deddfwriaeth arall sy'n gysylltiedig â bridio a gwerthu cŵn.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you also for your previous response to my written questions from earlier in the month. This is really important as a stepping stone towards the introduction of Lucy's law to ban the third-party sale of cats and dogs. The perception out there of a lack of progress is causing concern amongst campaigners, with fears that, after England brings in its own Lucy's law in April, Wales will become, and I quote, 'The pet shop for sick and damaged animals.' Minister, can you give me a cast-iron guarantee that you will not let this happen, and that a Welsh Lucy's law will be introduced before the end of this Assembly term? When can we, and the many people around Wales who are following this so closely, expect the detailed timetable of the next steps to achieving this goal?

Diolch, Weinidog, a diolch hefyd am eich ymateb blaenorol i fy nghwestiynau ysgrifenedig yn gynharach yn y mis. Mae hyn yn bwysig iawn fel cam tuag at gyflwyno deddf Lucy i wahardd gwerthiannau cŵn a chathod bach gan drydydd parti. Mae'r canfyddiad o ddiffyg cynnydd yn peri pryder ymhlith ymgyrchwyr, gydag ofnau y bydd Cymru, ar ôl i Loegr gyflwyno eu deddf Lucy eu hunain ym mis Ebrill, yn dod, ac rwy'n dyfynnu, yn 'Siop ar gyfer anifeiliaid anwes sâl ac anafus.' Weinidog, a allwch roi sicrwydd cadarn i mi na fyddwch yn gadael i hyn ddigwydd, ac y bydd deddf Lucy yn cael ei chyflwyno yng Nghymru cyn diwedd tymor y Cynulliad hwn? Pryd y gallwn ni, a'r llu o bobl ledled Cymru sy'n dilyn hyn mor agos, ddisgwyl amserlen fanwl ar gyfer y camau nesaf tuag at gyflawni'r nod hwn?


I thank Vikki Howells for that question, and I absolutely give that assurance. This is a major piece of work, and I know how many campaigners are certainly very concerned about that, because my inbox shows me that—both as an Assembly Member and as the Minister. The two sort of go hand in hand; they're very closely linked. What I want to make sure is—. I've said we will bring in a Lucy's law, I'm not in a position at the moment to give you the timetable, but I certainly hope to do so within the next couple of months.

The report, which I commissioned before the end of December, I received about 10 days ago, maybe a little bit less, and I gave you a bit of a flavour in my opening answer as to what's in there. So, I think the big thing for me is—. There's always a rush to legislation; it's about getting that legislation right, but it's about learning what isn't working in the current legislation. Because clearly there are some barriers at the moment that we need to get around. So, if it's barriers to enforcement, for instance, I'm sure that will be flushed out by the local authorities and the meeting that the chief veterinary officer had on that.

So, the two are very closely linked, and I'll certainly be very happy to update. But I absolutely give you my cast-iron assurance that we will look at the breeding legislation that's currently there, and also what we need to bring forward in relation to a Lucy's law.

Diolch i Vikki Howells am ei chwestiwn, ac rwy'n bendant yn rhoi'r sicrwydd hwnnw i chi. Mae hyn yn gryn dipyn o waith, a gwn faint o ymgyrchwyr sy'n sicr yn bryderus iawn am hynny, gan fod fy mewnflwch yn dangos hynny i mi—fel Aelod Cynulliad ac fel y Gweinidog. Mae'r ddau beth yn mynd law yn llaw mewn ffordd; mae cysylltiad agos iawn rhyngddynt. Yr hyn yr hoffwn ei sicrhau yw—. Rwyf wedi dweud y byddwn yn cyflwyno deddf Lucy, nid wyf mewn sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd i roi'r amserlen i chi, ond rwy'n sicr yn gobeithio gwneud hynny o fewn y mis neu ddau nesaf.

Derbyniais yr adroddiad a gomisiynais cyn diwedd mis Rhagfyr oddeutu 10 diwrnod yn ôl, efallai ychydig yn llai, a rhoddais flas i chi o'r hyn sydd ynddo yn fy ateb agoriadol. Felly, credaf mai'r peth mawr i mi yw—. Mae yna bob amser frys i ddeddfu; mae'n ymwneud â chael y ddeddfwriaeth honno'n iawn, ond mae'n ymwneud â dysgu beth nad yw'n gweithio yn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Oherwydd yn amlwg, ceir rhai rhwystrau ar hyn o bryd y mae angen i ni eu goresgyn. Felly, os yw hynny'n golygu rhwystrau rhag gorfodi, er enghraifft, rwy'n siŵr y bydd yr awdurdodau lleol a'r cyfarfod a gafodd y prif swyddog milfeddygol ar hynny yn mynd i'r afael â'r mater hwnnw.

Felly, mae cysylltiad agos iawn rhwng y ddau, ac rwy'n sicr yn fwy na pharod i roi'r newyddion diweddaraf ar hynny. Ond rwy'n rhoi fy sicrwydd pendant i chi y byddwn yn edrych ar y ddeddfwriaeth sydd ar waith ar hyn o bryd o ran bridio, yn ogystal â'r hyn y mae angen i ni ei gyflwyno mewn perthynas â deddf Lucy.

The issue is, Minister, that you certainly won't be accused of rushing to legislation in this matter. Giving a cast-iron guarantee that you're going to read a report doesn't fill Members here with a great deal of confidence. We've heard these assurances before, and we've been disappointed. I think we've come to a point now, with something over a year left in this Senedd, where we want to see action, and we want to see the promises made a reality. I think what people on all sides of the Chamber want to see is not a reading list, but a commitment to actually doing this and getting this done. I think we are letting down people, up and down the country, and people are saying that they want to see this action completed. I think Members on all sides of the Chamber want to see action and not words.

Y broblem yn sicr, Weinidog, yw na fyddwch yn cael eich cyhuddo o ruthro i ddeddfu ar y mater hwn. Nid yw rhoi sicrwydd pendant eich bod yn mynd i ddarllen adroddiad yn rhoi llawer o hyder i'r Aelodau yma. Rydym wedi clywed y sicrwydd hwnnw o'r blaen, ac rydym wedi cael ein siomi. Credaf ein bod wedi cyrraedd pwynt bellach, gydag ychydig dros flwyddyn ar ôl yn y Senedd hon, lle rydym am weld camau gweithredu, ac rydym am weld yr addewidion yn cael eu gwireddu. Ni chredaf mai rhestr ddarllen yw'r hyn y mae pobl ar bob ochr i'r Siambr am ei gweld, ond yn hytrach, ymrwymiad i wneud hyn ac i gyflawni hyn. Credaf ein bod yn gwneud tro gwael â phobl, ledled y wlad, ac mae pobl yn dweud eu bod am weld y cam hwn yn cael ei gwblhau. Credaf fod Aelodau ar bob ochr i'r Siambr yn awyddus i weld gweithredu ac nid geiriau.

Sorry, I think Member must have misheard me. I did give that cast-iron assurance to Vikki Howells that I will be making a statement after February recess, on the back of the report that the animal health and welfare framework group gave to me, and also on the discussions that the chief veterinary officer had with all—well, 21—local authorities, one didn't attend, to see what the barriers are to that enforcement, and also with the British Veterinary Association about what further training we can give to vets. Because, on the back of the programme by the BBC, where a lot of this correspondence has come from, it was clear there were several issues that needed addressing. Legislation can't be rushed—the Member knows that—but certainly I give the cast-iron guarantee that we will have that legislation in place in this term.

Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, mae'n rhaid bod yr Aelod wedi fy ngham-glywed. Rhoddais y sicrwydd pendant hwnnw i Vikki Howells y byddaf yn gwneud datganiad ar ôl toriad mis Chwefror, yn dilyn yr adroddiad a gefais gan y grŵp fframwaith iechyd a lles anifeiliaid, a hefyd ar y trafodaethau a gafodd y prif swyddog milfeddygol gyda phob un—wel, 21—o'r awdurdodau lleol, ni fynychodd un ohonynt, i weld beth yw'r rhwystrau rhag gorfodi, a hefyd gyda Chymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain ynglŷn â pha hyfforddiant pellach y gallwn ei roi i filfeddygon. Oherwydd, yn dilyn y rhaglen gan y BBC, a arweiniodd at lawer o'r ohebiaeth hon, roedd yn amlwg fod sawl mater angen sylw. Ni ellir rhuthro deddfwriaeth—mae'r Aelod yn gwybod hynny—ond yn sicr, rwy'n rhoi sicrwydd cadarn y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth honno yn ei lle yn y tymor hwn.

England, of course, is bringing in Lucy's law in April. Southern Ireland is introducing similar regulations next month. Wales, the home of the breeding farm where Lucy was rescued from, has no date for the introduction of the law.

There is significant national interest in this, and the Petitions Committee has a petition signed by 11,195 people calling for the ban of the sale of puppies by pet shops and all commercial third-party dealers in Wales. Last month, the Welsh Government stated that it needed to gain a thorough understanding of the barriers to enforcement within the existing legislation so that you could tackle the problem effectively. What barriers, really, have you identified, and by when are you aiming to overcome them?

Mae Lloegr, wrth gwrs, yn cyflwyno deddf Lucy ym mis Ebrill. Mae de Iwerddon yn cyflwyno rheoliadau tebyg y mis nesaf. Nid oes gan Gymru, cartref y fferm fridio y cafodd Lucy ei hachub ohoni, ddyddiad ar gyfer cyflwyno'r ddeddf.

Mae cryn ddiddordeb cenedlaethol yn hyn, ac mae gan y Pwyllgor Deisebau ddeiseb wedi’i llofnodi gan 11,195 o bobl yn galw am wahardd gwerthu cŵn bach gan siopau anifeiliaid anwes a phob deliwr masnachol trydydd parti yng Nghymru. Y mis diwethaf, nododd Llywodraeth Cymru fod angen iddi gael dealltwriaeth drylwyr o'r rhwystrau rhag gorfodi o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol fel y gallech fynd i'r afael â'r broblem yn effeithiol. Pa rwystrau a nodwyd gennych, ac erbyn pryd y bwriadwch eu goresgyn?

I am aware of the petition at committee and it doesn't surprise me that it's had so many signatures—we're absolutely a county of animal lovers. I referred to the meeting that the chief veterinary officer and her officials had with local authorities, so I suppose that was the first area where we saw barriers in relation to the local authorities being able to, perhaps, visit the breeders as much as they would like to. Obviously, local authorities, after a decade of austerity, have had cuts to their budget. Unfortunately, it does appear that officers in animal welfare areas have perhaps been cut back to the very minimal numbers.

So, we're looking at—and I have to say, local authorities are very keen to do this—sharing expertise. So, you have somewhere like Torfaen, for instance, which I think has one licensed breeder, and then you've got areas like Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion that have got multiple numbers—hundreds, I think, in a couple of them.

So, it's about making sure that we have the capacity to cover the whole of Wales, and perhaps working together in a way. I think that's one very important barrier that we saw as to why the current legislation that we have isn't being enforced. So, just changing the legislation I don't think would bring an end to what we all want to see. 

Rwy'n ymwybodol o'r ddeiseb yn y pwyllgor ac nid yw'n syndod i mi ei bod wedi cael cymaint o lofnodion—rydym yn wlad sy'n caru anifeiliaid. Cyfeiriais at y cyfarfod a gafodd y prif swyddog milfeddygol a'i swyddogion gydag awdurdodau lleol, felly mae'n debyg mai dyna'r maes cyntaf lle gwelsom rwystrau mewn perthynas â gallu'r awdurdodau lleol, efallai, i ymweld â'r bridwyr gymaint ag yr hoffent. Yn amlwg, mae awdurdodau lleol, ar ôl degawd o gyni, wedi cael toriadau i'w cyllideb. Yn anffodus, ymddengys efallai fod swyddogion mewn meysydd sy'n ymwneud â lles anifeiliaid wedi'u torri'n ôl i'r niferoedd lleiaf posibl.

Felly, rydym yn edrych—ac mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, mae awdurdodau lleol yn awyddus iawn i wneud hyn—ar rannu arbenigedd. Felly, mae gennych rywle fel Torfaen, er enghraifft, sydd ag un bridiwr trwyddedig, rwy'n credu, ac mae gennych ardaloedd fel Sir Gaerfyrddin a Cheredigion sydd â nifer o fridwyr—cannoedd, rwy'n credu, mewn un neu ddwy ohonynt.

Felly, mae'n ymwneud â sicrhau bod gennym gapasiti i fynd i'r afael â Chymru gyfan, ac efallai i gydweithio, mewn ffordd. Credaf fod hynny'n un rhwystr pwysig iawn a welsom o ran pam nad yw'r ddeddfwriaeth bresennol sydd gennym yn cael ei gorfodi. Felly, ni chredaf y byddai newid y ddeddfwriaeth yn unig yn rhoi terfyn ar yr hyn yn y ffordd y mae pob un ohonom yn dymuno'i gweld.


Certainly from these benches, I can give you an assurance, Minister, that we would support any legislation that was brought forward to enact Lucy's law, and I hear the comments from the Labour backbench in particular. I think there is consensus around this Chamber that legislation can proceed at pace when that consensus is put to good effect. And I would implore you to make sure that, if it is the regulatory route that you go down with your statement coming in February, that you do have the enforcement measures in place, because there is little or no point in actually putting regulation, or indeed legislation, in place unless the enforcement is there. It is pleasing to hear that the chief veterinary officer has engaged with local authorities to gauge the level of support that they will require. Will you commit today to making sure that that support is made available to local authorities so that if it is regulation or legislation you bring forward, the aspects around Lucy's law to end this abhorrent practice can be brought to bear here in Wales? 

O’r meinciau hyn yn bendant, gallaf roi sicrwydd i chi, Weinidog, y byddem yn cefnogi unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth a gyflwynir i ddeddfu cyfraith Lucy, a chlywaf y sylwadau o’r meinciau cefn Llafur yn arbennig. Rwy'n credu bod consensws o amgylch y Siambr hon y gellir bwrw ymlaen â deddfwriaeth yn gyflym pan fydd y consensws hwnnw'n cael ei weithredu'n effeithiol. A buaswn yn erfyn arnoch i sicrhau, os byddwch yn dilyn y llwybr rheoleiddio gyda'ch datganiad ym mis Chwefror, fod gennych y mesurau gorfodi ar waith, oherwydd nid oes llawer o bwrpas, os o gwbl, mewn rhoi rheoliadau—neu ddeddfwriaeth yn wir—yn ei lle os nad yw'r orfodaeth yno. Mae'n braf clywed bod y prif swyddog milfeddygol wedi ymgysylltu ag awdurdodau lleol i fesur lefel y gefnogaeth y bydd ei hangen arnynt. A wnewch chi ymrwymo heddiw i sicrhau, os ydych yn cyflwyno rheoliadau neu ddeddfwriaeth, fod y gefnogaeth honno ar gael i awdurdodau lleol fel y gellir gweithredu'r agweddau ar gyfraith Lucy i roi diwedd ar yr arfer ffiaidd hwn yma yng Nghymru? 

Certainly that's something that we're having to look at because it's very clear, just after that one meeting that the CVO had with local authorities—. I was very pleased that 21 out of 22 local authorities sent a representative to that meeting. So, I think it does show that there is that consensus right across all levels of Government in this area. Obviously, and I referred to this in my answer to Janet Finch-Saunders, funding is going to be a matter of concern for many of them. I don't have an unlimited pot of money, but I absolutely accept, depending on what we do when we look at those regulations and the barriers, and whether we reopen those regulations and the legislation that we're going to have to bring in, that further funding will undoubtedly be required. So, I can't give you a commitment that I will give it, or how much I will give but, certainly, I recognise that that is an issue.  

Yn sicr mae hwnnw'n rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid inni edrych arno oherwydd mae'n amlwg iawn, ar ôl yr un cyfarfod hwnnw a gafodd y prif swyddog milfeddygol gydag awdurdodau lleol—. Roeddwn yn falch iawn fod 21 o'r 22 awdurdod lleol wedi anfon cynrychiolydd i'r cyfarfod hwnnw. Felly, rwy'n credu ei fod yn dangos bod consensws ar draws pob lefel o Lywodraeth yn y maes hwn. Yn amlwg, a chyfeiriais at hyn yn fy ateb i Janet Finch-Saunders, bydd cyllid yn destun pryder i lawer ohonynt. Nid oes gennyf bot diderfyn o arian, ond yn dibynnu ar yr hyn a wnawn wrth edrych ar y rheoliadau a'r rhwystrau, a ph’un a ydym yn ailagor y rheoliadau a'r ddeddfwriaeth y bydd yn rhaid i ni ei chyflwyno, rwy'n derbyn y bydd angen cyllid pellach yn ddi-os. Felly, ni allaf roi ymrwymiad i chi y byddaf yn ei roi na faint y byddaf yn ei roi ond yn sicr, rwy'n cydnabod ei fod yn fater sy'n codi.  

Parthau Perygl Nitradau
Nitrate Vulnerable Zones

4. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y bwriad i gyflwyno parthau perygl nitradau yng Nghymru? OAQ54992

4. Will the Minister provide an update on the proposed introduction of nitrate vulnerable zones in Wales? OAQ54992

I am currently considering advice on measures to tackle agricultural pollution across all of Wales. Agricultural pollution is causing considerable environmental damage and is detrimental to public health. It is not restricted to nitrate vulnerable zones. The number of agricultural pollution incidents across Wales in 2019 is unacceptably high. 

Ar hyn o bryd rwy'n ystyried cyngor ar fesurau i fynd i'r afael â llygredd amaethyddol ledled Cymru. Mae llygredd amaethyddol yn achosi cryn niwed i'r amgylchedd ac mae’n niweidiol i iechyd y cyhoedd. Nid yw'n gyfyngedig i barthau perygl nitradau. Mae nifer y digwyddiadau llygredd amaethyddol ledled Cymru yn 2019 yn annerbyniol o uchel. 

Thank you, Minister.

The proposed new regulations regarding nitrate vulnerable zones will impact on every farm, every sector and every area of Wales. You will be aware, Minister, that concern has been raised by National Farmers Union Cymru about the effect this is having on the farming community, which claims that our farmers are experiencing even higher levels of stress and anxiety. Information supplied by Natural Resources Wales as part of the nitrate review in 2016 provided no justification for the introduction of NVZs across Wales. However, the Welsh Government has refused to disclose the advice and evidence related to the proposed regulations that it has received from NRW under a freedom of information request. In view of the importance, cost and potential implications of these regulations, Minister, will you publish the advice and evidence received from NRW in the interest of security and transparency in this case? 

Diolch, Weinidog.

Bydd y rheoliadau newydd arfaethedig ynghylch parthau perygl nitradau yn effeithio ar bob fferm, pob sector a phob ardal yng Nghymru. Fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol, Weinidog, fod Undeb Cenedlaethol Amaethwyr Cymru wedi mynegi pryderon ynghylch yr effaith y mae hyn yn ei chael ar y gymuned ffermio, gan honni bod ffermwyr yn profi lefelau uwch fyth o straen a phryder. Ni roddodd gwybodaeth a ddarparwyd gan Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru fel rhan o'r adolygiad nitradau yn 2016 unrhyw gyfiawnhad dros gyflwyno parthau perygl nitradau ledled Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwrthod datgelu’r cyngor a’r dystiolaeth yn ymwneud â’r rheoliadau arfaethedig a gafodd gan Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru o dan gais rhyddid gwybodaeth. O ystyried pwysigrwydd, cost a goblygiadau posibl y rheoliadau hyn, Weinidog, a wnewch chi gyhoeddi'r cyngor a'r dystiolaeth a gafwyd gan Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru er budd diogelwch a thryloywder yn yr achos hwn?

I'm not sure if the Member was in the Chamber, Presiding Officer, when I answered a very similar question from both Llyr Huws Gruffydd and Andrew R.T. Davies but, as I say, no evidence has been refused to be disclosed; I only received it on Monday. And when I make my announcement, probably by the middle of February, what can be published will be.  

Nid wyf yn siŵr a oedd yr Aelod yn y Siambr, Lywydd, pan atebais gwestiwn tebyg iawn gan Llyr Huws Gruffydd ac Andrew R.T. Davies ond fel y dywedaf, ni wrthodwyd datgelu unrhyw dystiolaeth; ddydd Llun yn unig y’i cefais. A phan fyddaf yn gwneud fy nghyhoeddiad, erbyn canol mis Chwefror mae'n debyg, bydd yr hyn y gellir ei gyhoeddi yn cael ei gyhoeddi.

I think it's a very important point that the Minister has made. If Members are present for questions that have been asked and answered previously, I ask all Members to listen to what's happening during a question session so that they can ask their questions and respond to the ministerial answers as they have been given. That has happened several times this afternoon. Joyce Watson. That's a challenge for you, Joyce. 

Rwy'n credu bod y Gweinidog yn gwneud pwynt pwysig iawn. Os yw'r Aelodau'n bresennol ar gyfer cwestiynau a ofynnwyd ac a atebwyd yn gynt, gofynnaf i'r holl Aelodau wrando ar yr hyn sy'n digwydd yn ystod y sesiwn gwestiynau fel y gallant ofyn eu cwestiynau ac ymateb i atebion y Gweinidog fel y cawsant eu rhoi. Mae hynny wedi digwydd sawl gwaith y prynhawn yma. Joyce Watson. Dyna her i chi, Joyce.  

I'm not going to repeat anything. What I'm going to ask is a very pointed question on NVZs. It's been brought to my attention that concentrate of nitrates from chicken farms is more difficult to deal with because it simply stays at the bottom of the watercourse. So, in your deliberations on NVZs, can I please ask that you look at that specific issue that I have just mentioned?

Nid wyf am ailadrodd unrhyw beth. Rwyf am ofyn cwestiwn penodol iawn ar barthau perygl nitradau. Tynnwyd fy sylw at y ffaith ei bod yn anos mynd i’r afael â chrynodiad nitradau ar ffermydd ieir oherwydd ei fod, yn syml, yn aros ar waelod y cwrs dŵr. Felly, yn eich trafodaethau ar barthau perygl nitradau, a gaf fi ofyn i chi edrych ar y mater penodol rwyf newydd ei grybwyll?


Yes. I'd be very happy to do that. Joyce Watson has just reminded me of one thing I didn't say to Mohammed Asghar. He said it will affect every farm across Wales. That might not be the case, and, certainly, the number of agricultural pollution incidents—and I do really want to say this—the majority of farmers do not pollute, and I think we should absolutely recognise that, and, equally, every farm is different. But that is not the case. But certainly, yes, in answer to Joyce Watson, I'd be very happy to look at that particular point.

Buaswn yn hapus iawn i wneud hynny. Mae Joyce Watson newydd fy atgoffa o rywbeth na ddywedais wrth Mohammed Asghar. Dywedodd y bydd yn effeithio ar bob fferm ledled Cymru. Efallai nad yw hynny'n wir, ac yn sicr, mewn perthynas â nifer y digwyddiadau llygredd amaethyddol—ac rwy'n awyddus iawn i ddweud hyn—nid yw’r rhan fwyaf o ffermwyr yn llygru, a chredaf y dylem gydnabod hynny'n llwyr, ond yn yr un modd, mae pob fferm yn wahanol. Ond nid yw hynny'n wir. Ond yn sicr, i ateb Joyce Watson, buaswn yn hapus iawn i edrych ar y pwynt penodol hwnnw.

Minister, I welcome that comment that not every farm does pollute. I've had representations from farmers in my own constituency, which, as you know, is predominantly characterised by smaller family farms with a mixture of sheep and livestock and some arable, and they're also characterised by that greater biodiversity, which typically does come with smaller, mixed farms. Now, they share the aspiration of Welsh Government to tackle overuse and the leaching of nitrates—and other contaminates, by the way—in farming, which can degrade soil, and along with poor farming practices, can poison watercourses and marine environments. They know they've got a part to play, but these are not big dairy farms. They've heard the reassurance of the Minister today and elsewhere that the proposals will not affect the majority of smaller family farms, either in terms of cost or bureaucracy, but, I have to say, they are not convinced on the ground when I speak to them.

So, what can the Minister say in reassurance to those smaller family farms and those families? And would she at some time in the near future be willing to come with me and meet on one of the farms in my constituency to discuss the proposals? We absolutely need to tackle this problem, but we need to bring the farming community with us, including those smaller family farms, which are integral to our living communities and integral to our wider biodiversity and climate change challenges. They all need to be on side with us.

Weinidog, rwy’n croesawu’r sylw hwnnw nad yw pob fferm yn llygru ac rwyf wedi cael sylwadau gan ffermwyr yn fy etholaeth fy hun, sydd, fel y gwyddoch, yn cynnwys ffermydd teuluol llai o faint yn bennaf gyda chymysgedd o ddefaid a da byw a rhywfaint o dir âr, a nodwedd arall arnynt yw'r fioamrywiaeth ehangach sy'n perthyn i ffermydd cymysg llai o faint. Nawr, maent yn rhannu dyhead Llywodraeth Cymru i fynd i'r afael â gorddefnyddio a thrwytholchi nitradau—a halogion eraill, gyda llaw—mewn perthynas â ffermio, sy'n gallu diraddio pridd, ac ynghyd ag arferion ffermio gwael, gallant wenwyno cyrsiau dŵr ac amgylcheddau morol. Maent yn gwybod bod ganddynt ran i'w chwarae, ond nid yw'r rhain yn ffermydd llaeth mawr. Maent wedi clywed sicrwydd y Gweinidog heddiw ac mewn mannau eraill na fydd y cynigion yn effeithio ar fwyafrif y ffermydd teulu llai o faint, o ran cost neu fiwrocratiaeth, ond mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud, nid ydynt yn argyhoeddedig ar lawr gwlad pan fyddaf yn siarad â hwy.

Felly, beth all y Gweinidog ei ddweud i roi sicrwydd i'r ffermydd teuluol llai o faint a'r teuluoedd hynny? Ac a fyddai ar ryw adeg yn y dyfodol agos yn barod i ddod gyda mi i ymweld ag un o'r ffermydd yn fy etholaeth i drafod y cynigion? Mae gwir angen inni fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon, ond mae angen inni ddod â’r gymuned ffermio gyda ni, gan gynnwys y ffermydd teuluol llai hynny, sy’n rhan annatod o’n cymunedau byw ac sy'n rhan annatod o'r heriau ehangach sy'n ein hwynebu o ran bioamrywiaeth a newid hinsawdd. Mae angen i bawb ohonynt fod ar ein hochr ni.

I absolutely agree, and I hope that Members do recognise that for the past three and a half years, if not a little bit longer, I've absolutely tried to do that by going for the voluntary approach, by going to several presentations from a scheme that I referred to in an earlier answer that two Pembrokeshire farmers came forward with. I've had lots of recommendations. I mean, one of the last reports I received from the sector, off the top of my head, I think it was about 35 recommendations; not one was for the agricultural sector, they were all for Government. Well, equally, it's got to work both ways. We have to do it in partnership. But I'd be very happy—. I mean, I've visited many farms and discussed this over the last few years, and it's not something that I want to stop doing.

Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr, ac rwy’n gobeithio bod yr Aelodau'n cydnabod fy mod wedi ceisio gwneud hynny am y tair blynedd a hanner diwethaf, os nad ychydig yn hwy, drwy fabwysiadu dull gwirfoddol, drwy fynychu sawl cyflwyniad ar gynllun y cyfeiriais ato mewn ateb cynharach a luniwyd gan ddau ffermwr o Sir Benfro. Rwyf wedi cael llawer o argymhellion. Hynny yw, roedd un o'r adroddiadau diwethaf a gefais gan y sector, rwy’n credu, heb i mi fynd i edrych, yn cynnwys oddeutu 35 o argymhellion; nid oedd yr un ohonynt ar gyfer y sector amaethyddol, roeddent i gyd ar gyfer y Llywodraeth. Wel, yn yr un modd, mae'n rhaid iddo weithio'r ddwy ffordd. Mae'n rhaid inni ei wneud mewn partneriaeth. Ond buaswn yn hapus iawn—. Hynny yw, rwyf wedi ymweld â llawer o ffermydd ac wedi trafod hyn dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, ac nid yw'n rhywbeth rwyf eisiau rhoi'r gorau i'w wneud.

Ansawdd Aer yn y Gogledd
Air Quality in North Wales

6. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am fonitro ansawdd aer yn y Gogledd? OAQ54990

6. Will the Minister make a statement on monitoring air quality in North Wales? OAQ54990

The Environment Act 1995 requires local authorities throughout Wales to monitor, assess and develop actions to improve air quality in their area. There are 178 air quality monitors sited across north Wales. Our consultation on the clean air plan for Wales includes proposals for enhancing air quality monitoring and assessment.

Mae Deddf yr Amgylchedd 1995 yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru fonitro, asesu a datblygu camau i wella ansawdd aer yn eu hardal. Mae 178 o fonitorau ansawdd aer wedi'u lleoli ledled gogledd Cymru. Mae ein hymgynghoriad ar gynllun aer glân i Gymru yn cynnwys cynigion ar gyfer gwella’r gwaith o fonitro ac asesu ansawdd aer.

In light of the recent fire at the Kronospan plant at Chirk and the subsequent pollution effect that that had on the locality—I'm told it's the seventeenth fire in 18 years, although a number of residents there assert that they're much more regular occurrences, actually, than that—can you tell me whether you're satisfied with the level of monitoring carried out by Natural Resources Wales and Wrexham council at Chirk particularly? Because residents are now mounting weekly protests as a result of this latest fire, and I share their concerns that the bodies responsible for ensuring their safety are not providing the reassurance that they require, given the plant's record. Would you agree to hold an independent inquiry into recent events there, with community representation as part of that inquiry, and also to ensure that there is permanent, independent air quality monitoring at least around the site so that the community there can have the reassurance that they deserve?

O ystyried y tân diweddar yn ffatri Kronospan yn y Waun a'r llygredd dilynol a effeithiodd ar yr ardal—dywedir wrthyf mai hwn yw'r ail dân ar bymtheg mewn 18 mlynedd, er bod nifer o drigolion yno'n honni eu bod yn digwydd yn llawer mwy rheolaidd na hynny mewn gwirionedd—a allwch ddweud wrthyf pa mor fodlon ydych chi ynghylch lefel y gwaith monitro a wneir gan Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru a chyngor Wrecsam yn y Waun yn arbennig? Oherwydd mae preswylwyr bellach yn cynnal protestiadau wythnosol o ganlyniad i’r tân diweddaraf hwn, ac rwy’n rhannu eu pryderon nad yw’r cyrff sy’n gyfrifol am sicrhau eu diogelwch yn darparu'r sicrwydd y maent ei angen, o ystyried hanes y ffatri. A fyddech yn cytuno i gynnal ymchwiliad annibynnol i ddigwyddiadau diweddar yno gyda chynrychiolaeth gymunedol yn rhan o'r ymchwiliad hwnnw, a hefyd i sicrhau bod gwaith monitro ansawdd aer parhaol, annibynnol yn mynd rhagddo ar y safle, neu o amgylch y safle fan lleiaf, fel y gall y gymuned yno gael y sicrwydd y maent yn ei haeddu?

Thank you. You'll be aware that the fire that did take place at Kronospan earlier this month was in the log yard. That permit for that area came under Wrexham County Borough Council, so they're the relevant regulator for this matter and I'm awaiting further information from them around that.

In relation to NRW, they're currently reviewing the existing permit held by Kronospan in relation to the transfer of powers that we did from Wrexham County Borough Council to NRW, and I know those discussions are ongoing. So, I'll certainly be very interested to see the outcome of that because I want assurance that it is absolutely correct. My understanding at the moment is that it is, but I'm sure that further information will come over the next couple of weeks in particular.

I don't think there's a need for an independent inquiry at the present time, but I do recognise that the people of Chirk absolutely need some assurance, and I will be working very closely—. I'm having a meeting with NRW within the next couple of weeks, and I will be raising it again, and I'd be very happy to write to the Member to update him on the back of that.

Diolch. Fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol fod y tân a ddigwyddodd yn Kronospan yn gynharach y mis hwn yn yr iard foncyffion. Roedd y drwydded ar gyfer yr ardal honno yn dod o dan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam, felly hwnnw yw'r rheolydd perthnasol ar gyfer y mater hwn ac rwy'n aros am wybodaeth bellach ganddynt mewn perthynas â hynny.

Mewn perthynas â Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, ar hyn o bryd maent yn adolygu'r drwydded bresennol a ddelir gan Kronospan mewn perthynas â throsglwyddo pwerau o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sir Wrecsam i Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, a gwn fod y trafodaethau hynny'n parhau. Felly, yn sicr bydd gennyf ddiddordeb mawr mewn gweld canlyniad hynny oherwydd rwyf eisiau sicrwydd ei fod yn hollol gywir. Fy nealltwriaeth i, ar hyn o bryd, yw ei fod yn gywir, ond rwy'n siŵr y caf ragor o wybodaeth dros yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf yn enwedig.

Nid wyf yn credu bod angen ymchwiliad annibynnol ar hyn o bryd, ond rwy'n cydnabod yn llwyr fod angen rhywfaint o sicrwydd ar bobl y Waun, a byddaf yn gweithio'n agos iawn—. Byddaf yn cael cyfarfod gyda Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru o fewn yr wythnos neu ddwy nesaf, a byddaf yn codi’r mater eto, a buaswn yn hapus iawn i ysgrifennu at yr Aelod i roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf iddo yn dilyn y cyfarfod hwnnw.

Safonau Lles Uchel mewn Sefydliadau Bridio
High Welfare Standards in Breeding Establishments

7. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i sicrhau safonau lles uchel mewn sefydliadau bridio yng Nghymru? OAQ55004

7. What actions is the Welsh Government taking to ensure high welfare standards in breeding establishments in Wales? OAQ55004

Thank you. Officials are working with local authorities to explore opportunities to ensure consistent treatment of all licensed breeding establishments across Wales. This work, to look at ways of combining resources and expertise and improving training for local authority officers, will help target enforcement more consistently and effectively.

Diolch. Mae swyddogion yn gweithio gydag awdurdodau lleol i archwilio cyfleoedd i sicrhau bod yr holl sefydliadau bridio trwyddedig ledled Cymru yn cael eu trin gyda chysondeb. Bydd y gwaith hwn, i edrych ar ffyrdd o gyfuno adnoddau ac arbenigedd a gwella hyfforddiant ar gyfer swyddogion awdurdodau lleol, yn helpu i dargedu gorfodaeth yn fwy cyson ac effeithiol.

Thank you for that answer. But there was a recent report from Carmarthenshire County Council into dog breeding in the county, and there are 85 licensed dog breeders in Carmarthenshire. That is one of the highest numbers in Wales and England, and about 10 of those breeders have over 100 dogs. And what struck me particularly in the report is that, in some cases, officers were only carrying out checks every two years instead of annual establishment inspections, and I don't think that that is in any way at all acceptable. It does raise some serious questions as to why the council is continuing to give out licences when they don't have an adequate number of staff to carry out annual inspections, and the workload is clearly too high for two officers who are employed.

The other issue that is fairly obvious when we look at the standards of breeding establishments is at the moment, it is perfectly acceptable to put down anything, it seems to me—a shed that isn't necessarily heated and there isn't water available—just to breed animals. And part of this report mentioned that farmers need to diversify. I don't think that they are giving adequate information to farmers who do want to diversify if they're not widening the opportunities and information available and are going down this single trajectory. 

Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw. Ond cafwyd adroddiad yn ddiweddar gan Gyngor Sir Caerfyrddin am fridio cŵn yn y sir, ac mae 85 o fridwyr cŵn trwyddedig yn Sir Gaerfyrddin. Mae hwnnw’n un o'r ffigurau uchaf yng Nghymru a Lloegr, ac mae gan oddeutu 10 o'r bridwyr dros 100 o gŵn. A’r hyn a’m trawodd yn arbennig yn yr adroddiad yw’r ffaith nad yw swyddogion, mewn rhai achosion, ond yn cynnal archwiliadau bob dwy flynedd yn hytrach nag arolygiadau sefydliadol blynyddol, ac nid wyf yn credu bod hynny'n dderbyniol o gwbl mewn unrhyw ffordd. Mae'n codi rhai cwestiynau difrifol ynghylch pam fod y cyngor yn parhau i roi trwyddedau pan nad oes ganddynt nifer ddigonol o staff i gynnal arolygiadau blynyddol, ac mae'n amlwg bod y llwyth gwaith yn rhy uchel i'r ddau swyddog a gyflogir.

Y mater arall sy'n weddol amlwg wrth edrych ar safonau sefydliadau bridio yw ei bod yn hollol dderbyniol ar hyn o bryd i nodi unrhyw beth, mae'n ymddangos i mi—sied nad yw o reidrwydd yn cael ei chynhesu a lle nad oes dŵr ar gael—ar gyfer bridio anifeiliaid. A soniodd rhan o'r adroddiad fod angen i ffermwyr arallgyfeirio. Nid wyf yn credu eu bod yn rhoi gwybodaeth ddigonol i ffermwyr sydd eisiau arallgyfeirio os nad ydynt yn ehangu'r cyfleoedd a'r wybodaeth sydd ar gael ac yn dilyn y trywydd hwn. 

I need a question from you now, Joyce Watson.

Rwyf angen cwestiwn gennych yn awr, Joyce Watson.

So my question is: will you consider reviewing the number of licences a local authority can issue according to the ratio of inspectors that they currently have?

Felly fy nghwestiwn yw: a fyddech yn ystyried adolygu nifer y trwyddedau y gall awdurdod lleol eu rhoi i gyd-fynd â'r gymhareb o arolygwyr sydd ganddynt ar hyn o bryd?

I know that Joyce Watson was in the Chamber to hear my earlier answers around dog breeding, and this is clearly one of the areas that the chief veterinary officer, in her discussions with local authorities, has encountered. So, we need to look at those barriers again, making sure that the legislation we currently have is being enforced, and explore opportunities to maximise the use of existing resources. So, as I said in an earlier answer, it's about making sure that we've got that spread across Wales where we have local authorities who only have a single figure. As I say, Torfaen, I think, has one, and you've got areas such as those you referred to in Carmarthenshire that has got multiple licences.

I think the ratio of breeding premises across local authorities is absolutely disproportionate, and it means that some local authorities are really struggling to cope with demands. So, this work is to look at a way of sharing that resource and expertise, and I think that really will target enforcement much more effectively.

Gwn fod Joyce Watson yn y Siambr i glywed fy atebion cynharach ynghylch bridio cŵn, ac mae hwn yn amlwg yn un o'r meysydd y mae'r prif swyddog milfeddygol, yn ei thrafodaethau ag awdurdodau lleol, wedi dod ar eu traws. Felly, mae angen inni edrych ar y rhwystrau hynny eto, gan sicrhau bod y ddeddfwriaeth sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd yn cael ei gorfodi ac archwilio cyfleoedd i wneud y defnydd gorau o'r adnoddau presennol. Felly, fel y dywedais mewn ateb cynharach, mae'n ymwneud â sicrhau bod gennym y gwasgariad hwnnw ledled Cymru lle mae gennym awdurdodau lleol sydd ag un yn unig. Fel y dywedaf, un sydd gan Dorfaen, rwy'n credu, ac mae gennych chi ardaloedd fel y rhai rydych wedi cyfeirio atynt yn Sir Gaerfyrddin sydd â thrwyddedau niferus.

Rwy'n credu bod cymhareb safleoedd bridio ar draws awdurdodau lleol yn gwbl anghymesur, ac mae'n golygu bod rhai awdurdodau lleol yn ei chael hi'n anodd ymdopi â gofynion. Felly, mae’r gwaith hwn yn ymwneud ag edrych ar ffordd o rannu'r arbenigedd a’r adnoddau hynny, a chredaf y bydd hynny'n targedu gorfodaeth yn llawer mwy effeithiol.

Minister, I recently met with my constituents David and Elaine Williams and their dog Cindy, who herself was saved from a puppy farm, to learn more about how to stop the cruel practice through Lucy's law. I know that this is something that has gathered cross-party support, and it's crucial now that as Lucy's law comes into force in England in April, Wales isn't, of course, left behind.

However, in the meantime, and following on from Joyce Watson's question, what discussions have you and your officials had with local authorities about ways in which they can better enforce the licensing of puppy farms in Wales, and how is the Welsh Government proactively encouraging dog lovers to actually buy from reputable breeders?

Weinidog, yn ddiweddar, cyfarfûm â fy etholwyr David ac Elaine Williams a’u ci Cindy, a gafodd ei hachub o fferm cŵn bach, i ddysgu mwy ynglŷn â sut i atal yr arfer creulon drwy gyfraith Lucy. Gwn fod hwn yn rhywbeth sydd wedi ennyn cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol, ac mae'n hanfodol yn awr, wrth i gyfraith Lucy ddod i rym yn Lloegr ym mis Ebrill, nad yw Cymru, wrth gwrs, yn cael ei gadael ar ôl.

Fodd bynnag, yn y cyfamser, ac yn dilyn ymlaen o gwestiwn Joyce Watson, pa drafodaethau rydych chi a'ch swyddogion wedi’u cael gydag awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn â ffyrdd y gallant fynd ati i drwyddedu ffermydd cŵn bach yng Nghymru yn well, a sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd ati’n rhagweithiol i annog pobl sy’n hoffi cŵn i'w prynu gan fridwyr cyfrifol?


I'm sorry, Presiding Officer, I don't think Paul Davies was in the Chamber before to hear my earlier answers about the work we're doing around Lucy's law. I mentioned that the chief veterinary officer has met with all—well, apart from one local authority, 21 local authorities around this particular issue, to ensure that we understand what the barriers are to the enforcement of the current legislation. Just bringing in Lucy's law would not, I don't think, rid us of the illegal puppy farming that we all want to see gone.

You make a really important point at the end, though, about individuals. It really is up to the person who is purchasing a dog that they buy it from a reputable breeder—we had a campaign in the run-up to Christmas to encourage that—and for individuals to ask questions and perhaps to ask, if they're shown into a kitchen, maybe, to see the puppies, to see other parts of the breeder's property. So, it is about bringing it all together. We've already had those conversations that have started with local authorities. I will be making a statement after the February recess.

Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, Lywydd, nid wyf yn credu bod Paul Davies yn y Siambr i glywed fy atebion cynharach am y gwaith rydym yn ei wneud mewn perthynas â chyfraith Lucy. Crybwyllais fod y prif swyddog milfeddygol wedi cyfarfod â phawb—wel, ar wahân i un awdurdod lleol, 21 o awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn â'r mater penodol hwn, i sicrhau ein bod yn deall beth yw'r rhwystrau i orfodi'r ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Nid wyf yn credu y byddai cyflwyno cyfraith Lucy yn cael gwared ar yr arfer o ffermio cŵn bach yn anghyfreithlon yr hoffai pawb ohonom weld diwedd arno.

Er hynny, rydych yn gwneud pwynt pwysig iawn ar y diwedd am unigolion. Mater i'r unigolyn sy'n prynu'r ci yw a ydynt yn ei brynu gan fridiwr cyfrifol—cawsom ymgyrch yn y cyfnod cyn y Nadolig i annog hynny—ac i unigolion ofyn cwestiynau a gofyn efallai, os cânt eu harwain i gegin, efallai, am gael gweld y cŵn bach, am gael gweld rhannau eraill o eiddo'r bridiwr. Felly, mae'n ymwneud â dod â'r cyfan at ei gilydd. Rydym eisoes wedi cael y sgyrsiau hynny sydd wedi dechrau gydag awdurdodau lleol. Byddaf yn gwneud datganiad ar ôl toriad mis Chwefror.

Y Rhaglen i Ddileu TB
The TB Eradication Programme

8. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am raglen ddileu TB Llywodraeth Cymru? OAQ55003

8. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's TB eradication programme? OAQ55003

Thank you. We refreshed the TB eradication programme in Wales in October 2017, and we are now seeing some long-term downward trends in key TB indicators, such as incidence and prevalence. I committed to providing a statement on the programme on an annual basis, and I will next do so in April.

Diolch. Gwnaethom adnewyddu'r rhaglen dileu TB yng Nghymru ym mis Hydref 2017, ac rydym yn awr yn gweld rhai tueddiadau hirdymor ar i lawr mewn dangosyddion TB allweddol, megis nifer a mynychder yr achosion. Ymrwymais i ddarparu datganiad ar y rhaglen bob blwyddyn, a byddaf yn gwneud hynny nesaf ym mis Ebrill.

I thank the Minister for that reply. In the 12 months to October 2019, 12,742 cattle were slaughtered. That's the highest figure on record; it compares with only 917 back in 1996. I heard the First Minister, a few days ago, claiming that this increase in slaughter was actually a sign that the Government's policy was being successful. I don't, myself, see the highlighting of past failures as an indication of success, although that's an important development. I do acknowledge that some progress has been made, but I hope the Minister will agree that not enough has been done and a lot remains to be done.

The Government's policy's been focused almost entirely upon farm practices and restrictions placed on farmers and cattle movements, and it has ignored one other important element in the jigsaw, which is the prevalence of TB in wildlife as a vector of infection. Until the Government does recognise that this is one part of the solution to the problem, we will never achieve what we all want to achieve, which is the total eradication of TB in Wales. The Minister often says that she is going to base her policy on evidence, and that's a very good thing, but given that she and her colleagues in previous decisions have done the opposite—the shooting ban introduced by Natural Resources Wales was done in the face of their own evidence; the imposition of windfarms like Hendy has been done against the recommendation of the Minister's own appointed inspector; the smoking ban that we were debating this week—

Diolch i'r Gweinidog am yr ateb hwnnw. Yn y 12 mis hyd at fis Hydref 2019, lladdwyd 12,742 o wartheg. Dyna'r ffigur uchaf a gofnodwyd; mae'n cymharu â 917 yn unig yn ôl yn 1996. Clywais y Prif Weinidog, ychydig ddyddiau'n ôl, yn honni bod y cynnydd hwn yn nifer y gwartheg sy'n cael eu lladd yn arwydd mewn gwirionedd fod polisi'r Llywodraeth yn llwyddo. Yn bersonol, nid wyf yn gweld bod rhoi sylw i fethiannau'r gorffennol yn arwydd o lwyddiant, er bod hwnnw'n ddatblygiad pwysig. Rwy'n cydnabod bod rhywfaint o gynnydd wedi'i wneud, ond rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn cytuno nad oes digon wedi'i wneud a bod llawer i'w wneud eto.

Mae polisi'r Llywodraeth wedi canolbwyntio bron yn gyfan gwbl ar arferion ffermydd a chyfyngiadau ar ffermwyr a symudiadau gwartheg, ac mae wedi anwybyddu un elfen bwysig arall yn y jig-so, sef nifer yr achosion o TB mewn bywyd gwyllt fel fector haint. Hyd nes y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cydnabod bod hyn yn un rhan o'r ateb i'r broblem, ni fyddwn byth yn cyflawni'r hyn rydym i gyd eisiau ei gyflawni, sef dileu TB yn llwyr yng Nghymru. Mae'r Gweinidog yn dweud yn aml ei bod am seilio ei pholisi ar dystiolaeth, ac mae hynny'n beth da iawn, ond o ystyried ei bod hi a'i chyd-Aelodau, mewn penderfyniadau blaenorol, wedi gwneud y gwrthwyneb—cafodd y gwaharddiad saethu a gyflwynwyd gan Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru ei wneud yn erbyn eu tystiolaeth eu hunain; mae codi ffermydd gwynt fel yr Hendy wedi'i wneud yn erbyn argymhelliad arolygydd a benodwyd gan y Gweinidog ei hun; cafodd y gwaharddiad ar ysmygu roeddem yn ei drafod yr wythnos hon—

Like Joyce Watson, you need to get to your question also, Neil Hamilton.

Fel Joyce Watson, mae angen i chi gyrraedd eich cwestiwn hefyd, Neil Hamilton.

—was introduced in spite of the results of the Government's own consultation. So, my question to the Minister is: how can rural Wales have any faith in this Government that it will actually base its policy on evidence when all the evidence that we have is that it does the opposite?

—ei gyflwyno er gwaethaf canlyniadau ymgynghoriad y Llywodraeth ei hun. Felly, fy nghwestiwn i'r Gweinidog yw hwn: sut y gall Cymru wledig gael unrhyw ffydd yn y Llywodraeth hon y bydd, mewn gwirionedd, yn seilio ei pholisi ar dystiolaeth pan fydd yr holl dystiolaeth sydd gennym yn dangos ei bod yn gwneud y gwrthwyneb?

Well, I absolutely do base any policy I bring forward on science and evidence, and I think Neil Hamilton's cherry-picking a bit, because if you look at the TB dashboard, if you look at the short term, for instance in the 12 months to October 2019, there were 666 new herd incidents reported in Wales—too many, I agree, and I absolutely want to stress that—but it was a 12 per cent decrease on the previous 12 months, so we are seeing improvement. In the longer term, we've seen a 37 per cent decrease in new incidents from 2019 to 2018. We have seen a decrease in animals slaughtered by 4 per cent in 2009 to 2018.

I think the point the First Minister was making was around more sophisticated testing enabling us to find the TB earlier than it was before. We don't ignore any element of the TB picture, and I can assure the Member that, in our bespoke action plans, for instance, absolutely every element is looked at.

Wel, yn sicr, rwy'n seilio unrhyw bolisi rwy'n ei gyflwyno ar wyddoniaeth a thystiolaeth, a chredaf fod Neil Hamilton yn dewis a dethol braidd, oherwydd os edrychwch ar y dangosfwrdd TB, os edrychwch ar y tymor byr, er enghraifft yn y 12 mis hyd at fis Hydref 2019, cofnodwyd 666 o achosion newydd mewn buchesi yng Nghymru—gormod, rwy'n cytuno, ac rwyf eisiau pwysleisio hynny'n bendant iawn—ond roedd yn ostyngiad o 12 y cant ar y 12 mis blaenorol, felly rydym yn gweld gwelliant. Yn y tymor hwy, gwelsom ostyngiad o 37 y cant mewn digwyddiadau newydd rhwng 2019 a 2018. Gwelsom ostyngiad o 4 y cant yn nifer yr anifeiliaid a laddwyd rhwng 2009 a 2018.

Rwy'n credu mai'r pwynt roedd y Prif Weinidog yn ei wneud oedd bod profion mwy soffistigedig yn ein galluogi i ddod o hyd i'r TB yn gynharach nag o'r blaen. Nid ydym yn anwybyddu unrhyw elfen o'r sefyllfa TB, a gallaf sicrhau'r Aelod, yn ein cynlluniau gweithredu pwrpasol, er enghraifft, fod pob elfen yn cael ei hystyried.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the number of approved finishing units in Wales is significantly lower pro rata than in England, I'm told. And this is, of course, limiting the opportunities for farmers down with TB to sell their calves to prevent overstocking on their holdings. I wonder, Minister, what you intend to do to encourage the setting up of more approved finishing units in Wales, and also would you commit your officials to look at simplifying the regulations around them?

Diolch, Lywydd. Weinidog, mae nifer yr unedau pesgi cymeradwy yng Nghymru gryn dipyn yn is pro rata nag yn Lloegr, yn ôl yr hyn a ddywedwyd wrthyf. Ac mae hyn, wrth gwrs, yn cyfyngu ar y cyfleoedd i ffermwyr sydd â TB ar eu ffermydd werthu eu lloi er mwyn atal gorstocio ar eu ffermydd. Rwy'n meddwl tybed beth rydych yn bwriadu ei wneud, Weinidog, i annog sefydlu mwy o unedau pesgi cymeradwy yng Nghymru, a hefyd a wnewch chi ymrwymo eich swyddogion i edrych ar symleiddio'r rheoliadau sydd ynghlwm wrthynt?


I'm certainly happy to look at simplifying anything. I hate bureaucracy and if it can be simplified in any way—. I know officials are working with individual farmers where they do have a breakdown, particularly if they've got different pockets of land that could be declared TB-free or are TB-free, to do that. But, yes, I'm certainly happy to commit officials to doing that.

Rwy'n sicr yn hapus i edrych ar symleiddio unrhyw beth. Rwy'n casáu biwrocratiaeth ac os gellir ei symleiddio mewn unrhyw ffordd—. Rwy'n gwybod bod swyddogion yn gweithio gyda ffermwyr unigol lle mae ganddynt achosion o TB, yn enwedig os oes ganddynt bocedi gwahanol o dir y gellid eu datgan yn rhydd rhag TB neu sy'n rhydd rhag TB, i wneud hynny. Ond ydw, rwy'n sicr yn hapus i ymrwymo swyddogion i wneud hynny.

2. Cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol
2. Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

Yr eitem nesaf, felly, yw'r cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Mark Isherwood.

The next item is questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government, and the first question is from Mark Isherwood.

Swyddfa'r Post
The Post Office

1. Pa drafodaethau y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'u cael ynghylch gweithrediadau Swyddfa'r Post yng Nghymru? OAQ54982

1. What discussions has the Minister had regarding the operations of the Post Office in Wales? OAQ54982

I recognise the valuable services that local post offices provide to the communities they serve across Wales. Welsh Government has regular contact with Post Office Ltd to ensure we are kept aware of and raise any issues that affect Welsh communities.

Rwy'n cydnabod y gwasanaethau gwerthfawr y mae swyddfeydd post lleol yn eu darparu i'r cymunedau y maent yn eu gwasanaethu ledled Cymru. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cysylltu'n rheolaidd â Swyddfa'r Post Cyf er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn ymwybodol o unrhyw faterion sy'n effeithio ar gymunedau yng Nghymru a'n bod yn gallu dwyn unrhyw broblemau i'w sylw.

Post offices remain at the heart of our communities, especially where the last bank branch has closed. During the years of the UK Government's post office closure programme between 2007 and 2009, we were repeatedly told here—and quite rightly so—that post offices had to become sustainable and that included the development of financial services.

Last October we all received an announcement that the Post Office had agreed a new banking framework with 28 UK banks, ensuring that bank customers continued to have free access to everyday banking services in every corner of Wales. It also ensured a fair and sustainable remuneration package for sub-postmasters and mistresses. So, how is the Welsh Government, therefore, engaging with the Post Office in the context of this banking framework agreement, to ensure that its proposals for a community bank do not compete with those services that simply fill in the gap, so that we can ensure that our post office network is here tomorrow and for next week, next year and future generations?

Mae swyddfeydd post yn dal i fod yn ganolog i'n cymunedau, yn enwedig lle mae'r gangen olaf o fanc wedi cau. Yn ystod blynyddoedd rhaglen Llywodraeth y DU i gau swyddfeydd post rhwng 2007 a 2009, dywedwyd wrthym dro ar ôl tro yma—a hynny'n gwbl briodol—fod yn rhaid i swyddfeydd post fod yn gynaliadwy a bod hynny'n cynnwys datblygu gwasanaethau ariannol.

Fis Hydref diwethaf, cyhoeddwyd bod Swyddfa'r Post wedi cytuno ar fframwaith bancio newydd gyda 28 o fanciau'r DU, gan sicrhau bod cwsmeriaid banciau'n parhau i gael mynediad am ddim at wasanaethau bancio bob dydd ym mhob cwr o Gymru. Roedd hefyd yn sicrhau cydnabyddiaeth ariannol deg a chynaliadwy i is-bostfeistri. Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru felly yn ymgysylltu â Swyddfa'r Post yng nghyd-destun y cytundeb fframwaith bancio hwn, er mwyn sicrhau nad yw ei chynigion ar gyfer banc cymunedol yn cystadlu â'r gwasanaethau hynny sydd ond yn llenwi'r bwlch, fel y gallwn sicrhau bod ein rhwydwaith swyddfeydd post yma yfory a'r wythnos nesaf, y flwyddyn nesaf a chenedlaethau'r dyfodol?

Diolch. As we both—. I think everybody here will be in agreement on the role that post offices play in our communities and in the heart of our towns across the country as well, performing not just a function and a practical role, but also a social function as well. Although post office matters are not devolved to Welsh Ministers, clearly we have a role to play in how those issues impact or affect the citizens of Wales.

Officials last met with Post Office Ltd earlier this month and actually raising awareness of the banking framework and commitment was one of the things high on the agenda, about how we can work with them, with the roles that we're doing across Government to ensure that Welsh citizens have access to the services they need.

Diolch. Fel y mae'r ddau ohonom—. Rwy'n credu y bydd pawb yma yn cytuno ar y rôl y mae swyddfeydd post yn ei chwarae yn ein cymunedau ac yng nghalonnau ein trefi ledled y wlad yn ogystal, gan gyflawni swyddogaeth a rôl ymarferol yn ogystal â swyddogaeth gymdeithasol hefyd. Er nad yw materion yn ymwneud â swyddfeydd post wedi'u datganoli i Weinidogion Cymru, mae'n amlwg fod gennym rôl i'w chwarae yn y ffordd y mae'r materion hynny'n effeithio ar ddinasyddion Cymru.

Cafodd swyddogion eu cyfarfod diweddaraf â Swyddfa'r Post Cyf yn gynharach y mis hwn ac mewn gwirionedd roedd codi ymwybyddiaeth o'r ymrwymiad a'r fframwaith bancio yn uchel ar yr agenda, o ran sut y gallwn weithio gyda hwy, gyda'r gwaith rydym yn ei wneud ar draws y Llywodraeth i sicrhau bod dinasyddion Cymru'n gallu cael gafael ar y gwasanaethau y maent eu hangen.

Rhagamcanion Poblogaeth a Chynlluniau Datblygu Lleol
Population Forecasts and Local Development Plans

2. Pa asesiad mae'r Gweinidog wedi ei wneud o'r berthynas rhwng rhagamcanion poblogaeth a chynlluniau datblygu lleol? OAQ54991

2. What assessment has the Minister made of the relationship between population forecasts and local development plans? OAQ54991

Yes. The household projections, local housing market assessments and well-being plans are essential parts of the evidence base for local development plans. The scale of housing growth is a matter for local planning authorities to determine, reflecting the issues they have identified.

Ie. Mae'r amcanestyniadau aelwydydd, yr asesiadau o'r farchnad dai leol a'r cynlluniau llesiant yn rhannau hanfodol o'r sylfaen dystiolaeth ar gyfer cynlluniau datblygu lleol. Mater i awdurdodau cynllunio lleol yw penderfynu ar raddfa twf tai, gan adlewyrchu'r materion y maent wedi'u nodi.

Mi gafodd cynllun datblygu lleol Wrecsam, wrth gwrs, yn fy rhanbarth i, ei wrthod nôl yn 2013 gan yr arolygwyr cynllunio oherwydd nad oedd digon o dir, medden nhw, wedi’i glustnodi ar gyfer tai, a hynny oherwydd bod rhagamcanion poblogaeth y sir yn dweud y byddai yna 20 y cant o gynnydd yn y boblogaeth—yr ail gynnydd mwyaf drwy Gymru gyfan; yn ail yn unig i Gaerdydd mae'n debyg. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'r gwirionedd yn dra gwahanol.

Dros y bum mlynedd ddiwethaf mae'r cynnydd yn y boblogaeth wedi bod yn sylweddol is na'r rhagamcanion. Er hynny, mae'n ymddangos bod yr Arolygiaeth Gynllunio yn dal ddim yn gwrando oherwydd maen nhw'n parhau i herio cyngor Wrecsam. Mae'r cyngor yn edrych i darged o ryw 8,500 o dai yn eu cynllun datblygu lleol tra bod yr Arolygiaeth Gynllunio nawr yn mynnu bod angen bron i 12,000 o dai yn y cynllun hwnnw. Mae hynny, wrth gwrs, yn mynd i olygu codi mwy o dai ar feysydd gwyrdd, mae'n mynd i greu rhyw fath o urban sprawl sy'n mynd i ddinistrio cymunedau unigryw yr ardal.

Felly, fy nghwestiwn i ichi, Gweinidog, yw: ble mae'r Llywodraeth yn sefyll ar y mater yma? A ydych chi o blaid cyfundrefn sy'n gorfodi codi tai diangen, neu a ydych chi o blaid amddiffyn ein hamgylchedd ac amddiffyn ein cymunedau ni?

The Wrexham local development plan in my own region was rejected back in 2013 by the planning inspectors because there wasn't sufficient land allocated for housing, in their opinion. That was because the population forecasts for the county had stated that there would be a 20 per cent increase in population—the second-highest increase throughout the whole of Wales, second only to Cardiff. But, of course, the reality is very different.

Over the past five years, the increase in population has been significantly lower than the forecasts. Despite that, it appears that the Planning Inspectorate still isn't listening because they continue to challenge Wrexham council. The council is looking at a target of some 8,500 homes in their LDP, whilst the Planning Inspectorate insists that they need around 12,000 in that plan. That will mean building more homes on greenfield sites and it will create some sort of urban sprawl that will destroy the unique communities in the area.

So, my question to you, Minister, is: where does the Government stand on this issue? Are you in favour of a regime that enforces the building of unnecessary homes, or are you in favour of protecting our communities and our environment?


Well, thank you for that. As Llyr Gruffydd knows, it's much more complicated than that. He's absolutely right in saying that Wrexham had its original LDP rejected as a result of the way that it had done its housing land allocations policy. While the council does have an extant unitary development plan in place, it has expired for the purposes of calculating the five-year housing land supply. As he knows, the authority has been, and will continue to be, vulnerable to speculative development until the LDP is actually adopted. The LDP is currently at the examination stage.

The inspectors have raised concerns regarding the level of housing proposed in the plan, specifically questioning whether it is aspirational enough. The level of housing proposed by the council aligns with the 2014-based 10-year migration variant published by the Welsh Government, which is a requirement of 7,750 homes. Officials have made public representations supporting the level of housing in Wrexham's LDP, and do not consider that it should be increased further.

The level of housing is broadly in line with the past 10-year delivery rates. The inspectors have asked the council to provide additional clarification on this matter, and the deadline for that is 31 January. There will be an additional hearing session on 11 March to consider housing matters further. So, you can see that our officials agree, I think, broadly with what you're saying, which is that, given the current projections and what Wrexham is projecting in the LDP, our officials have made representations saying that we think that Wrexham is about right.

It's always a difficult balance for councils because the projections are just that: projections. They are not plan-based policies. They are based on projected population trends, but they don't take into account any economic development or tourism or other aspirations that the council may have, and they are not intended in any way to be a target. They are simply one part of a set of evidence that the authority must take into account when it sets its local housing target.

For example, in a local authority area, if the number of households being created is outstripping the level of population increase because there are growing numbers of people who want to live on their own, for example, then the housing target might be higher than the population increase and the forecast. So, it's a much more complex matter than that. But I think the simple answer to your question is that our officials agree that the plan is about where it should be and have made representations to that effect into the system.

Wel, diolch am hynny. Fel y gŵyr Llyr Gruffydd, mae'n llawer mwy cymhleth na hynny. Mae'n hollol iawn i ddweud bod cynllun datblygu lleol gwreiddiol Wrecsam wedi cael ei wrthod o ganlyniad i'r ffordd y lluniwyd eu polisi dyrannu tir ar gyfer tai. Er bod gan y cyngor gynllun datblygu unedol cyfredol ar waith, mae wedi dod i ben at ddibenion cyfrifo'r cyflenwad pum mlynedd o dir ar gyfer tai. Fel y gŵyr, mae'r awdurdod wedi bod, a bydd yn parhau i fod yn agored i hap-ddatblygu hyd nes y caiff y cynllun datblygu lleol ei fabwysiadu. Mae'r cynllun datblygu lleol ar y cam archwilio ar hyn o bryd.

Mae'r arolygwyr wedi codi pryderon ynghylch lefel y tai a argymhellir yn y cynllun, gan holi'n benodol a yw'n ddigon uchelgeisiol. Mae lefel y tai a argymhellir gan y cyngor yn cyd-fynd â'r amrywiolyn ymfudo 10 mlynedd a gyhoeddwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn 2014, sef gofyniad am 7,750 o gartrefi. Mae swyddogion wedi cyflwyno sylwadau cyhoeddus i gefnogi'r lefel o dai yng nghynllun datblygu lleol Wrecsam, ac nid ydynt yn credu y dylid ei chynyddu ymhellach.

Mae lefel y tai yn cyd-fynd yn fras â'r cyfraddau cyflenwi ar gyfer y 10 mlynedd blaenorol. Mae'r arolygwyr wedi gofyn i'r cyngor ddarparu eglurhad ychwanegol ar y mater hwn, a'r dyddiad ar gyfer darparu hwnnw yw 31 Ionawr. Cynhelir sesiwn wrando ychwanegol ar 11 Mawrth i ystyried materion tai ymhellach. Felly, rwy'n credu y gallwch weld bod ein swyddogion yn cytuno'n fras â'r hyn rydych yn ei ddweud, sef, o ystyried y rhagamcanion cyfredol a'r hyn y mae Wrecsam yn ei ragweld yn y cynllun datblygu lleol, fod ein swyddogion wedi cyflwyno sylwadau yn dweud ein bod yn credu bod Wrecsam yn eithaf agos ati.

Mae bob amser yn gydbwysedd anodd i gynghorau gan mai rhagamcanion yn unig ydynt. Nid ydynt yn bolisïau sy'n seiliedig ar gynllun. Maent wedi'u seilio ar dueddiadau rhagamcanol yn y boblogaeth, ond nid ydynt yn ystyried unrhyw ddatblygiad economaidd na thwristiaeth nac unrhyw ddyheadau eraill a allai fod gan y cyngor, ac ni fwriedir iddynt fod yn darged mewn unrhyw ffordd. Nid ydynt ond yn un rhan o set o dystiolaeth y mae'n rhaid i'r awdurdod ei hystyried pan fydd yn gosod ei darged tai lleol.

Er enghraifft, mewn ardal awdurdod lleol, os yw nifer yr aelwydydd sy'n cael eu creu yn fwy na lefel y cynnydd yn y boblogaeth oherwydd bod niferoedd cynyddol o bobl sydd eisiau byw ar eu pen eu hunain, er enghraifft, gallai'r targed tai fod yn uwch na'r cynnydd yn y boblogaeth a'r rhagolwg. Felly, mae'n fater llawer mwy cymhleth na hynny. Ond rwy'n credu mai'r ateb syml i'ch cwestiwn yw bod ein swyddogion yn cytuno bod y cynllun yn eithaf agos at lle dylai fod a'u bod wedi cyflwyno sylwadau i'r perwyl hwnnw yn y system.

Minister, I agree entirely with you that it is a complex picture that is painted every time an LDP goes for consideration, and the mix of housing that's required as well, from single-occupancy households to multiple-occupancy households. But it is a fact that, obviously, when councils are putting their LDPs forward, they have to have due regard to population forecasts.

One thing that comes up time and time again is that the population forecasts inform the number of units to be built but, very often, those population forecasts don't feed into the provision of doctors' surgeries, education facilities et cetera. Can you give me confidence that there will be greater weight placed on the services that are required to support these developments, which we all accept we require? We know that there is a housing crisis, and most people can be won over if they can be assured that the transport considerations are taken into account, the service provision is taken into account, and not just the number of houses that need to be built.

Weinidog, cytunaf yn llwyr â chi ei fod yn ddarlun cymhleth sy'n cael ei beintio bob tro y mae cynllun datblygu lleol dan ystyriaeth, a'r cymysgedd o dai sydd eu hangen hefyd, o aelwydydd meddiannaeth unigol i aelwydydd amlfeddiannaeth. Ond mae'n ffaith, yn amlwg, pan fydd cynghorau'n cyflwyno eu cynlluniau datblygu lleol, fod yn rhaid iddynt roi sylw dyledus i ragolygon poblogaeth.

Un peth sy'n codi dro ar ôl tro yw bod rhagolygon poblogaeth yn llywio nifer yr unedau sydd i'w hadeiladu ond yn aml iawn, nid yw'r rhagolygon poblogaeth hynny'n bwydo i mewn i'r broses o ddarparu meddygfeydd, cyfleusterau addysg ac ati. A allwch chi roi hyder i mi y bydd mwy o bwyslais yn cael ei roi ar y gwasanaethau sy'n ofynnol i gynnal y datblygiadau y mae pawb ohonom yn derbyn ein bod eu hangen? Gwyddom fod yna argyfwng tai, a gwyddom y gellir dwyn perswâd ar y rhan fwyaf o bobl os gellir eu sicrhau bod yr ystyriaethau trafnidiaeth yn cael eu hystyried, fod darpariaeth gwasanaethau'n cael ei hystyried, yn hytrach na dim ond nifer y tai sydd angen eu hadeiladu.

Yes, and the answer to your question is to look at the complex set of instructions that local authorities must follow in setting the various things. So, we can look at the housing numbers projections, for example, and the LDP has got to take into account a number of things in coming to its housing land supply and doing that, as I've just said to Llyr. But we also have, for example—. We're currently consulting on the national development framework, which has some major infrastructure things. As you know, we're in the process of putting, via the Local Government Elections (Wales) Bill, a framework in place to facilitate the regional strategic planning arrangements for local authorities, which should put the regional planning arrangements in place for those kinds of infrastructure. So, in the round, the set of plans that we will eventually have in place will do exactly that.

The way that I have been explaining it as we've been conducting a number of stakeholder meetings is that, if you set out a flat plan of Wales, you ought to be able to say, 'Well, here are the trunk roads, here are the hospitals, here are the existing schools, here is where the housing is, here's where the new school should be', and so on, and then when the council is negotiating with the house builder about their contribution to local infrastructure, there would be much better certainty about what that infrastructure should look like in advance, so that when somebody's planning to come forward with a piece of land, they know that they're likely to have to contribute to the school or the hospital or whatever it is that's nearby.

We haven't started this in the optimum place. We've started it at the bottom, and I would have preferred to start it at the top. But my colleague Lesley Griffiths started the process just before I took over this portfolio, and, very shortly, we will in a position where we have all of those plans in place, and we will be able to do exactly as you suggest. 

Ie, a'r ateb i'ch cwestiwn yw edrych ar y set gymhleth o gyfarwyddiadau y mae'n rhaid i awdurdodau lleol eu dilyn wrth bennu'r gwahanol bethau. Felly, gallwn edrych ar y rhagamcanion o niferoedd tai, er enghraifft, ac mae'n rhaid i'r cynllun datblygu lleol roi sylw i nifer o bethau wrth ystyried ei gyflenwad o dir ar gyfer tai a gwneud hynny, fel rwyf newydd ei ddweud wrth Llyr. Ond mae gennym ni hefyd, er enghraifft—. Rydym wrthi'n ymgynghori ar y fframwaith datblygu cenedlaethol, sy'n cynnwys rhai pethau seilwaith mawr. Fel y gwyddoch, rydym wrthi'n rhoi fframwaith ar waith, drwy Fil Etholiadau Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru), i hwyluso'r trefniadau cynllunio strategol rhanbarthol ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol, a ddylai roi'r trefniadau cynllunio rhanbarthol ar waith ar gyfer y mathau hynny o seilwaith. Felly, yn gyffredinol, bydd y set o gynlluniau a fydd gennym ar waith maes o law yn gwneud yn union hynny.

Y ffordd rwyf wedi bod yn ei esbonio, gan ein bod wedi bod yn cynnal nifer o gyfarfodydd i randdeiliaid, yw y dylech allu dweud, drwy osod cynllun cyffredinol ar gyfer Cymru, 'Wel, dyma'r cefnffyrdd, dyma'r ysbytai, dyma'r ysgolion presennol, dyma lle mae'r tai, dyma lle dylai'r ysgol newydd fod', ac yn y blaen, ac yna pan fydd y cyngor yn trafod gyda'r cwmni adeiladu tai ynglŷn â'u cyfraniad i seilwaith lleol, byddai llawer mwy o sicrwydd ynghylch sut y dylai'r seilwaith hwnnw edrych ymlaen llaw, felly pan fydd rhywun yn cynllunio i gyflwyno darn o dir, byddant yn gwybod ei bod yn debygol y bydd yn rhaid iddynt gyfrannu at yr ysgol neu at yr ysbyty neu beth bynnag sydd gerllaw.

Nid ydym wedi dechrau hyn yn y lle gorau posibl. Rydym wedi dechrau arni ar y gwaelod, a byddai wedi bod yn well gennyf ddechrau ar y brig. Ond dechreuodd fy nghyd-Aelod Lesley Griffiths y broses ychydig cyn i mi gael y portffolio, ac yn fuan iawn, byddwn mewn sefyllfa lle mae gennym yr holl gynlluniau hynny ar waith, a byddwn yn gallu gwneud yn union fel rydych yn ei awgrymu.  

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Lefarwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Mark Isherwood. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. On 10 January, a letter was sent to you by, or signed by, the leaders of all six north Wales county councils regarding the local government settlement for 2020-21. And, it said, 'Even with a positive settlement this year, we'll all be looking at some service reductions and above-inflation council tax increases. In light of the continued challenges, we wish to ask you for a funding floor of 4 per cent in the local government finance settlement, to be met from Welsh Government reserves.' And they said this was primarily because, in the provisional settlement for 2020-21, four of the five bottom councils are from north Wales, and, without a floor, most north Wales councils will be faced with the biggest challenge in terms of seeking cuts to service, whereas a floor will help to protect services and work against above-inflation council tax rises in the bottom six councils. How will you be responding to this request, which I believe has also been shared with the Welsh Local Government Association and the Secretary of State for Wales?

Diolch, Lywydd. Ar 10 Ionawr, anfonwyd llythyr atoch gan, neu wedi'i arwyddo gan, arweinwyr pob un o chwe chyngor sir gogledd Cymru ynghylch y setliad llywodraeth leol ar gyfer 2020-21. Ac roedd yn dweud, 'Hyd yn oed gyda setliad cadarnhaol eleni, byddwn i gyd yn edrych ar leihau rhai gwasanaethau a chynnydd uwch na chwyddiant yn y dreth gyngor. Yng ngoleuni'r heriau parhaus, rydym yn dymuno gofyn i chi am gyllid gwaelodol o 4 y cant yn y setliad ariannol i lywodraeth leol, i'w dalu o gronfeydd wrth gefn Llywodraeth Cymru.' Ac roeddent yn dweud mai'r rheswm pennaf am hyn oedd bod pedwar o'r pum cyngor sydd ar y gwaelod yn y setliad dros dro ar gyfer 2020-21 yng ngogledd Cymru, a heb gyllid gwaelodol, bydd y rhan fwyaf o gynghorau gogledd Cymru yn wynebu'r her fwyaf o ran edrych am doriadau i wasanaethau, tra bydd cyllid gwaelodol yn helpu i ddiogelu gwasanaethau a gweithio yn erbyn cynnydd uwch na chwyddiant yn y dreth gyngor yn y chwe chyngor sydd ar y gwaelod. Sut y byddwch yn ymateb i'r cais hwn y credaf ei fod hefyd wedi'i rannu â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru?

We've asked for more evidence as to the hardship that having the biggest uplift in any local government settlement that they've ever had would bring. And you can hear from the way I've answered your question that I'm a little sceptical about that. The purpose of a floor is obviously to prevent people from having to make enormous cuts in services that they would otherwise have had to make because of population projection changes, or some other issue in the distribution formula that disproportionately affects a particular council, and where an unexpected drop of million of pounds in terms of support would mean swift changes to services. 

In this case, what we're looking at is that no council in Wales will have less than a 3 per cent uplift. Most of the councils that you're talking about are somewhere in between 3 and 4 per cent. And what we're talking about is asking for a floor to bring them up to 4.7, I think they said—it might be 6 or 8; I can't remember—per cent. I don't think that's the same point, and, whilst I understand their argument that there's an average, and that some should come down in order for others to go up, they're not facing the kinds of service cuts that they were facing during the previous nine years of imposed austerity. So, it's very difficult to understand quite what the reasoning for that is. This is above the settlement that any of them could have been expected to be predicting, and it's very hard to see how they would have unplanned service cuts as a result. 

But, having said all of that, if they want to present some evidence of what that might look like, I'm very happy to look at it. But, again, I will emphasise that, when we are looking at putting more money into that sort of settlement, we are looking at where to take it from. So, we would also have to consider how much such a floor would cost, and where that money would come from. 

Rydym wedi gofyn am fwy o dystiolaeth ynglŷn â'r caledi a fyddai'n dod yn sgil y cynnydd mwyaf mewn unrhyw setliad llywodraeth leol a gawsant erioed. A gallwch glywed o'r ffordd rwyf wedi ateb eich cwestiwn fy mod ychydig yn amheus ynglŷn â hynny. Diben cyllid gwaelodol, yn amlwg, yw atal pobl rhag gorfod gwneud toriadau enfawr mewn gwasanaethau y byddent wedi gorfod eu gwneud fel arall oherwydd newidiadau mewn amcanestyniadau poblogaeth, neu ryw broblem arall yn ymwneud â'r fformiwla ddosbarthu sy'n effeithio'n anghymesur ar gyngor penodol, a lle byddai gostyngiad annisgwyl o filiynau o bunnoedd o ran cymorth yn golygu newidiadau sydyn i wasanaethau.  

Yn yr achos hwn, ni fydd yr un cyngor yng Nghymru'n cael llai na 3 y cant o gynnydd. Mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r cynghorau rydych yn sôn amdanynt rywle rhwng 3 a 4 y cant. A'r hyn rydym yn sôn amdano yw gofyn am gyllid gwaelodol i'w codi i 4.7, rwy'n credu mai dyna a ddywedasant—gallai fod yn 6 neu 8; ni allaf gofio—y cant. Nid wyf yn credu bod y pwynt hwnnw yr un fath, ac er fy mod yn deall eu dadl fod yna gyfartaledd, ac y dylai rhai ddod i lawr er mwyn i eraill fynd i fyny, nid ydynt yn wynebu'r math o doriadau i wasanaethau roeddent yn eu hwynebu yn ystod y naw mlynedd flaenorol o gyni gorfodol. Felly, mae'n anodd iawn deall yn iawn beth yw'r rhesymeg dros hynny. Mae'r setliad hwn yn uwch nag y gallai unrhyw un ohonynt fod wedi'i ragweld, ac mae'n anodd iawn gweld sut y byddent yn wynebu toriadau heb eu cynllunio i wasanaethau o ganlyniad i hynny.

Ond wedi dweud hynny i gyd, os ydynt eisiau cyflwyno tystiolaeth ynglŷn â hynny, rwy'n hapus iawn i edrych arno. Ond unwaith eto, rwyf am bwysleisio, pan fyddwn yn ystyried rhoi mwy o arian tuag at y math hwnnw o setliad, rydym yn ystyried o ble i'w gymryd. Felly, byddai'n rhaid inni hefyd ystyried faint y byddai cyllid gwaelodol o'r fath yn ei gostio, ac o ble y dôi'r arian hwnnw.  

Well, as I said—I won't go down the austerity line—they said that 'even with the positive settlement this year'—so they're acknowledging that, and it's cross-party signatures on this letter—they're saying that in order to meet pressures in demand-led priority services like social care and children's services, they will be facing cuts without a 4 per cent floor; it is 4 per cent this letter asked for. 

However, moving on to the integrated care fund, you produced your annual report on 16 January, which said that:

'There are now numerous multi-disciplinary teams of health, social care, housing and third sector professionals working together to develop tailored interventions'.

And, you said,

'making better use of resources through collaborative working and moving away from traditional ways of delivering services'

have been identified, but you recognised that the fund

'must demonstrate best use of public money and its impact should be clearly evidenced'

and that you would be addressing the recommendations from the Wales Audit Office review of the fund. That Wales Audit Office review said:

'A key aim of the fund is to promote joint working between statutory and third-sector organisations'

but the

'third-sector representatives that we spoke to identified a range of challenges which have affected their ability to access the fund'

and had

'left the third sector disconnected from the wider programme where they could equally have valid contributions to make to some of the larger-scale projects.'

Their particular report on north Wales was even more concerning in this context, where it says that

'the way the fund has been managed at national, regional and project levels have limited its potential to date...little evidence of successful projects yet being mainstreamed and funded',

and it specifically said that:

'Third sector representatives told us they felt they have insufficient access to the fund and that they benefit predominantly when spending on other projects slip'

and it called for

'ways to ensure fair access to the Integrated Care Fund for the third sector'.

This replicates concerns raised with me just in the last week—a debate last week here on bereavement support charities' funding. I've had a letter this week from charities supporting people with vision and hearing impairments. We're all receiving correspondence from the network of third sector bodies providing housing-related support, all of which should, and can, reduce significant pressure on statutory services for relatively small proportions of overall budgets. So, how do you respond specifically to the concerns raised by the auditor general regarding the need to better integrate the third sector, not just in the share of funding, which is critical, but also in the decision making and design of services as they go forward?

Wel, fel y dywedais—nid wyf am fynd ar drywydd cyni—dywedasant 'hyd yn oed gyda'r setliad cadarnhaol eleni'—felly maent yn cydnabod hynny, ac mae llofnodion trawsbleidiol ar y llythyr hwn—er mwyn ymateb i'r pwysau ar wasanaethau blaenoriaethol a arweinir gan y galw fel gwasanaethau gofal cymdeithasol a gwasanaethau plant, maent yn dweud y byddant yn wynebu toriadau heb gyllid gwaelodol o 4 y cant; gofynnai'r llythyr hwn am 4 y cant.  

Fodd bynnag, gan symud ymlaen at y gronfa gofal integredig, lluniwyd eich adroddiad blynyddol ar 16 Ionawr, ac roedd yn dweud:

'Erbyn hyn mae yna dimau amlddisgyblaeth niferus o weithwyr proffesiynol iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol, tai a thrydydd sector sy’n gweithio gyda’i gilydd i ddatblygu ymyriadau wedi’u teilwra'.

Ac fe ddywedoch chi fod,

'gwell defnydd o adnoddau drwy gydweithio a thrwy symud oddi wrth ffyrdd traddodiadol o weithio' 

wedi'u nodi, ond roeddech yn cydnabod bod yn rhaid i'r gronfa

'ddangos y defnydd gorau o arian cyhoeddus hefyd a bod angen darparu tystiolaeth glir o’i heffaith.' 

ac y byddech yn mynd i'r afael ag argymhellion adolygiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru o'r gronfa. Roedd adolygiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn dweud:

'Un o brif nodau’r gronfa yw hybu cydweithio rhwng cyrff statudol a sefydliadau’r trydydd sector'


'cyfeiriodd cynrychiolwyr y trydydd sector a fu’n siarad â ni at ystod o heriau sydd wedi effeithio ar eu gallu i gael gafael ar arian o’r gronfa.'

a bod y

'trydydd sector yn dal i fod wedi’i ddatgysylltu o’r rhaglen ehangach lle gallai wneud cyfraniadau yr un mor ddilys at rai o’r prosiectau mwy.'

Roedd eu hadroddiad penodol ar ogledd Cymru yn peri mwy o bryder byth yn y cyd-destun hwn, lle dywed fod

'y ffordd y cafodd y gronfa ei rheoli ar lefel genedlaethol, lefel ranbarthol a lefel prosiectau wedi cyfyngu ar ei photensial hyd yma...ni cheir llawer o dystiolaeth bod prosiectau llwyddiannus yn cael eu prif-ffrydio a’u hariannu'  

a dywedai'n benodol:

'Dywedodd cynrychiolwyr y trydydd sector wrthym nad ydynt yn teimlo eu bod yn cael mynediad digonol at y gronfa a’u bod yn elwa’n bennaf pan fydd y gwariant ar brosiectau eraill yn llithro.'

a galwai am

'ffyrdd o sicrhau bod y trydydd sector yn cael mynediad teg at y Gronfa Gofal Integredig.'

Mae hyn yn ailadrodd y pryderon a godwyd gyda mi yn ystod yr wythnos ddiwethaf—dadl yma yr wythnos diwethaf ar gyllid i elusennau cymorth profedigaeth. Rwyf wedi cael llythyr yr wythnos hon gan elusennau sy'n cefnogi pobl sydd â nam ar eu golwg a'u clyw. Rydym i gyd yn derbyn gohebiaeth gan y rhwydwaith o gyrff trydydd sector sy'n darparu cymorth sy'n gysylltiedig â thai, ac fe ddylai, ac fe allai, pob un ohonynt leihau'r pwysau sylweddol ar wasanaethau statudol am gyfrannau cymharol fach o gyllidebau cyffredinol. Felly, sut yr ymatebwch yn benodol i'r pryderon a godwyd gan yr archwilydd cyffredinol ynglŷn â'r angen i integreiddio'r trydydd sector yn well, nid yn unig o ran y gyfran o gyllid, sy'n allweddol, ond hefyd o ran gwneud penderfyniadau a llunio gwasanaethau wrth iddynt fwrw ymlaen?


I think it's a fair point, to be honest. It's early days in some ways for the integrated care fund, and we want to make sure that we are getting the kinds of ambitious projects coming forward. And to do that we do need a good set of cross-working across sectors to make sure that we hit all the right things that we want the integrated care fund to do. And that's quite complex, because, as Mark Isherwood is rightly pointing out, it interacts with a whole series of other things that we also fund. So, I think it's a fair point. Very happy to look again at the report's recommendations, and see how we can better integrate third sector partners in the planning for that. You'll know that we've recently put housing as statutory partners onto the regional planning boards—regional partnership boards, sorry; we should stop calling things almost the same three-letter acronym, for the benefit of struggling Ministers—the regional partnership boards, I should say. And the reason for that was because we wanted a wider input into the way that those funds are looked at. So, I'm very happy to look at that. If you want to write to me with better detail of some of the issues that have been raised with you, I'd be more than happy to look at that.

Rwy'n credu ei fod yn bwynt teg, a dweud y gwir. Mae'n ddyddiau cynnar, mewn rhai ffyrdd, ar y gronfa gofal integredig, ac rydym eisiau sicrhau ein bod yn cael y mathau o brosiectau uchelgeisiol a gaiff eu cyflwyno. Ac er mwyn gwneud hynny, rydym angen trawsweithio da ar draws sectorau i wneud yn siŵr ein bod yn taro'r holl bethau cywir rydym eisiau i'r gronfa gofal integredig eu gwneud. Ac mae hynny'n eithaf cymhleth, oherwydd, fel y mae Mark Isherwood yn ei nodi'n gywir, mae'n rhyngweithio â chyfres gyfan o bethau eraill rydym hefyd yn eu hariannu. Felly, rwy'n credu ei fod yn bwynt teg. Rwy'n hapus iawn i edrych eto ar argymhellion yr adroddiad, a gweld sut y gallwn integreiddio partneriaid y trydydd sector yn well wrth gynllunio ar gyfer hynny. Fe fyddwch yn gwybod ein bod wedi rhoi tai fel partneriaid statudol ar y byrddau cynllunio rhanbarthol yn ddiweddar—byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol, mae'n ddrwg gennyf; dylem roi'r gorau i roi'r un acronym tair llythyren i bethau, er budd Gweinidogion sy'n stryffaglu—y byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol, dylwn ddweud. A'r rheswm am hynny oedd ein bod eisiau cael mewnbwn ehangach i'r ffordd yr edrychir ar y cronfeydd hynny. Felly, rwy'n hapus iawn i edrych ar hynny. Os hoffech ysgrifennu ataf gan roi mwy o fanylion am rai o'r materion a gafodd eu dwyn i'ch sylw, rwy'n fwy na pharod i edrych ar hynny.

Okay. Then, if I move to a specific council, if I may, it's nearly two decades now since Flintshire's internal audit manager successfully took action against the council, and at the core of his complaints were denial of access to documents and failure to respond to correspondence. A few years later, we had the housing maintenance scandal, where similar problems were identified by PricewaterhouseCoopers and the independent Roots report. A whole tranche of people left the council, allegedly with non-disclosure agreements. A few years later, we had the AD Waste scandal, a similar pattern—again, two members of staff leaving the authority, but, again, the police saying they couldn't prosecute, because of the lack of documentation.

In 2018, Flintshire council had a debate and called for action after a councillor named and shamed officers who didn't reply to calls and e-mails, and called for further action to be taken. And now we have, this month, an ombudsman's report by the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales into Flintshire County Council, which found that, despite identifying in 2014 a statutory nuisance, the council didn't open an appropriate case file until 18 months later. The council was aware from at least 2012 that they didn't have appropriate planning consent, but almost no planning records from before August 2018, failures in interdepartmental communication and co-operation, lack of records, the council failed to respond to the complaints appropriately, there was an absence of clearly established ownership at senior levels in the council, compounded by the length of the time the failures continued, and a lack of regard for the difficulties faced. These reports, going back 10 years, and 20 years, are all identifying the same problems, irrespective of the political leadership as it comes and goes. What are you going to do about it? Because last time I raised this with you, you said it's matter for the council, and your predecessors over the years have always said it's just a matter for the council. But surely this can't go on unchallenged and uninvestigated, when the same problems keep arising.

Iawn. Os caf symud ymlaen at gyngor penodol, mae bron i ddau ddegawd bellach ers i reolwr archwilio mewnol Sir y Fflint lwyddo yn ei achos yn erbyn y cyngor, ac roedd gwrthod mynediad at ddogfennau a methiant i ymateb i ohebiaeth yn nodwedd ganolog o'i gwynion. Ychydig flynyddoedd yn ddiweddarach, cawsom y sgandal cynnal a chadw tai, lle nodwyd problemau tebyg gan PricewaterhouseCoopers ac adroddiad annibynnol Roots. Gadawodd llu o bobl y cyngor, gyda chytundebau peidio â datgelu yn ôl y sôn. Ychydig flynyddoedd yn ddiweddarach, cawsom sgandal AD Waste, patrwm tebyg—unwaith eto, dau aelod o staff yn gadael yr awdurdod, ond unwaith eto, yr heddlu'n dweud na allent erlyn oherwydd y diffyg dogfennaeth.

Yn 2018, cafodd cyngor Sir y Fflint ddadl a galwyd am gamau gweithredu ar ôl i gynghorydd enwi a chodi cywilydd ar swyddogion nad oedd yn ymateb i alwadau a negeseuon e-bost, a galwodd am gamau pellach. Ac yn awr mae gennym, y mis hwn, adroddiad ombwdsmon gan Ombwdsmon Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus Cymru i Gyngor Sir y Fflint a ganfu, er eu bod wedi nodi niwsans statudol yn 2014, nad oedd y cyngor wedi agor ffeil achos briodol tan 18 mis yn ddiweddarach. Roedd y cyngor yn ymwybodol ers o leiaf 2012 nad oedd ganddynt ganiatâd cynllunio priodol, ond nad oedd y nesaf peth i ddim cofnodion cynllunio cyn mis Awst 2018, fod methiannau o ran cyfathrebu a chydweithredu rhyngadrannol, prinder cofnodion, fod y cyngor wedi methu ymateb i'r cwynion yn briodol, fod diffyg perchnogaeth eglur wedi'i sefydlu ar lefelau uwch yn y cyngor, ffactor a waethygwyd gan hyd yr amser y parhaodd y methiannau, a diffyg ystyriaeth i'r anawsterau a wynebwyd. Mae'r adroddiadau hyn, sy'n mynd yn ôl 10 mlynedd, ac 20 mlynedd, i gyd yn nodi'r un problemau, waeth beth fo'r arweiniad gwleidyddol wrth iddo fynd a dod. Beth y bwriadwch ei wneud yn ei gylch? Oherwydd y tro diwethaf i mi godi hyn gyda chi, fe ddywedoch chi mai mater i'r cyngor ydyw, ac mae eich rhagflaenwyr dros y blynyddoedd bob amser wedi dweud mai mater i'r cyngor yn unig ydyw. Ond does bosibl y gall hyn barhau heb ei herio a'i archwilio, pan fo'r un problemau yn parhau i godi.

It is a matter for the council, but I understand your concern. I don't know this—because you'll know that I haven't been in work for the last week or so, but I don't know whether the public services ombudsman has raised anything as a result of the reports with the Government. So, I will look at that. We would expect, if there's a pattern emerging that the ombudsman was concerned about, for the ombudsman to flag that up with us. So, I will check that. And I'm more than happy to have a meeting with you about your wider concerns about it, if you like. So, apologies—I haven't seen that report, since I've been off work, but I will look into it.

However, it is always tempting to find a pattern in incidents over 10 years, when, actually, they're incidents. So, I'm happy to look at it with an open mind, but I'm not convinced that a set of incidents of one-offs, over 10 years, necessarily represents a pattern of culture in an authority. But I'm more than happy, Mark, to look at it, alongside you, and see whether there is something concerning emerging.

Mater i'r cyngor ydyw, ond rwy'n deall eich pryder. Nid wyf yn gwybod hyn—oherwydd fe fyddwch yn gwybod nad wyf wedi bod yn y gwaith am yr wythnos ddiwethaf, ond nid wyf yn gwybod a yw'r ombwdsmon gwasanaethau cyhoeddus wedi codi unrhyw beth o ganlyniad i'r adroddiadau gyda'r Llywodraeth. Felly, byddaf yn edrych ar hynny. Os oedd yna batrwm amlwg yn ymddangos a oedd yn peri pryder i'r ombwdsmon, byddem yn disgwyl i'r ombwdsmon dynnu ein sylw at hynny. Felly, byddaf yn edrych i weld. Ac rwy'n fwy na pharod i gael cyfarfod â chi am eich pryderon ehangach mewn perthynas â hyn, os mynnwch. Felly, ymddiheuriadau—nid wyf wedi gweld yr adroddiad hwnnw, gan fy mod wedi bod i ffwrdd o'r gwaith, ond fe edrychaf i mewn iddo.

Fodd bynnag, mae hi bob amser yn demtasiwn dod o hyd i batrwm mewn digwyddiadau dros 10 mlynedd pan mai digwyddiadau yn unig ydynt mewn gwirionedd. Felly, rwy'n hapus i edrych arno gyda meddwl agored, ond nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig fod cyfres o ddigwyddiadau unigol, dros 10 mlynedd, o reidrwydd yn brawf o batrwm o ddiwylliant mewn awdurdod. Ond rwy'n fwy na pharod i edrych arno gyda chi, Mark, a gweld a oes rhywbeth sy'n peri pryder yn ymddangos.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Delyth Jewell.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.


Diolch, Llywydd. Can the Minister explain why the Welsh Government is still counting the 7,129 homes sold through Help to Buy since 2016 as counting towards its target of 20,000 affordable homes, of which you've claimed 13,143 have been delivered already? 

Diolch, Lywydd. A all y Gweinidog egluro pam fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn dal i gyfrif y 7,129 o gartrefi a werthwyd drwy Cymorth i Brynu ers 2016 fel rhai sy'n cyfrif tuag at ei tharged o 20,000 o gartrefi fforddiadwy yr honnoch chi fod 13,143 ohonynt wedi'u darparu eisoes?

Yes. Because Help to Buy has helped people buy a house that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to buy by assisting them with a deposit scheme that they wouldn't have otherwise had access to. And we count affordable homes in that wider sense as homes that are available to people that they wouldn't have had access to them unless they'd had Government support. So, that's the short explanation. 

Gallaf. Oherwydd bod Cymorth i Brynu wedi helpu pobl i brynu tŷ na fyddent, fel arall, wedi gallu ei brynu drwy eu cynorthwyo gyda chynllun blaendal na fyddent wedi cael mynediad ato fel arall. Ac rydym yn cyfrif cartrefi fforddiadwy yn yr ystyr ehangach hwnnw fel cartrefi sydd ar gael i bobl na fyddent wedi cael mynediad atynt oni bai eu bod wedi cael cymorth gan y Llywodraeth. Felly, dyna'r esboniad byr.

Thank you for that, Minister. It seems to me the crux of the problem with the term 'affordable' is that the definition of it is so relative. So, a staggering 78 per cent of homes, so that's 5,564 that were sold through Help to Buy, were sold at a price of over £150,000. Over 1,000 homes that you count in the statistics as affordable were sold for over £250,000. I just can't see how any reasonable person can count these homes as affordable. Is that not statistical manipulation on an industrial scale? 

Diolch i chi am hynny, Weinidog. Mae'n ymddangos i mi mai craidd y broblem gyda'r term 'fforddiadwy' yw bod ei ddiffiniad mor gymharol. Felly, gwerthwyd 78 y cant, sy'n syfrdanol, o gartrefi, sef 5,564 a werthwyd drwy Cymorth i Brynu, am bris o dros £150,000. Cafodd dros 1,000 o gartrefi rydych yn eu cyfrif yn yr ystadegau fel rhai fforddiadwy eu gwerthu am dros £250,000. Nid wyf yn gallu gweld sut y gall unrhyw berson rhesymol gyfrif y cartrefi hyn fel rhai fforddiadwy. Onid yw hynny'n ystumio ystadegau ar raddfa enfawr?

I don't disagree at all that the definition of 'affordable' is unhelpful and rather more flexible than we'd like in terms of what we're trying to do. And we've been very upfront about the numbers in terms of that, because I'm not disagreeing with the fundamental premise of what you're saying, which is, actually, we should build social housing or homes that actually are within people's range without having to have Government help to get them there. But the current definition is that, if you've had Government help to get you into your house, then it's an affordable home. So, I'm not going to argue with you; I don't disagree with the basic premise that you're saying. But the target we set included that definition and so it's being counted against that definition. 

Rather more importantly, we're very engaged now on trying to release land and resources so that we can build social housing. So, that is houses for social rent, and that's either via our councils who are stockholding authorities—the 11 councils who still are stockholding authorities—or via our local housing associations, or both in some areas. So, some stockholding authorities are working hand in hand with the local housing association to bring forward houses for social rent in joint or partial ownership, and in other non-stockholding authorities they're working with their local housing associations to bring them forward. And it is really accelerating fast.

So, from a slow start—if you will remember, councils weren't allowed to use the money that they got from right to buy sales in order to do this, and there were caps on the housing revenue accounts and so on. So, from having that to the Conservative Government finally seeing sense and removing those caps, we've managed to accelerate quite considerably, and I hope very much that this year will see another acceleration of growth in houses for social rent, which is the tenure that's most needed in the Welsh economy. 

Nid wyf yn anghytuno o gwbl fod y diffiniad o 'fforddiadwy' yn ddi-fudd ac yn fwy hyblyg nag y byddem yn ei hoffi o ran yr hyn rydym yn ceisio ei wneud. Ac rydym wedi bod yn agored iawn ynglŷn â'r niferoedd mewn perthynas â hynny, oherwydd nid wyf yn anghytuno â'r hyn rydych yn ei ddweud yn sylfaenol, sef y dylem adeiladu tai cymdeithasol neu gartrefi sydd o fewn ystod gallu pobl i brynu heb orfod cael cymorth gan y Llywodraeth. Ond os ydych wedi cael cymorth gan y Llywodraeth i allu prynu eich tŷ, y diffiniad cyfredol yw ei fod yn gartref fforddiadwy. Felly, nid wyf am ddadlau gyda chi; nid wyf yn anghytuno â'ch gosodiad sylfaenol. Ond roedd y targed a osodwyd gennym yn cynnwys y diffiniad hwnnw ac felly mae'n cael ei gyfrif yn erbyn y diffiniad hwnnw.  

Yn bwysicach na dim, rydym yn mynd ati yn awr i geisio rhyddhau tir ac adnoddau fel y gallwn adeiladu tai cymdeithasol. Hynny yw, tai ar gyfer rhentu cymdeithasol, a hynny naill ai drwy ein cynghorau sy'n awdurdodau sy'n dal stoc dai—yr 11 cyngor sy'n awdurdodau sy'n dal stoc dai o hyd—neu drwy ein cymdeithasau tai lleol, neu'r ddau mewn rhai ardaloedd. Felly, mae rhai awdurdodau sy'n dal stoc dai yn gweithio law yn llaw â'r gymdeithas dai leol i gyflwyno tai rhent cymdeithasol ar gyfer cydberchnogaeth neu ranberchnogaeth, ac mewn awdurdodau eraill nad ydynt yn dal stoc dai, maent yn gweithio gyda'u cymdeithasau tai lleol i'w cyflwyno. Ac mae'n mynd o nerth i nerth.

Felly, o ddechrau araf—os cofiwch, nid oedd cynghorau'n cael defnyddio'r arian a gawsant o werthiannau hawl i brynu er mwyn gwneud hyn, ac roedd capiau ar y cyfrifon refeniw tai ac yn y blaen. Felly, o hynny i'r Llywodraeth Geidwadol yn gweld synnwyr o'r diwedd a dileu'r capiau, rydym wedi llwyddo i gyflymu'n eithaf sylweddol, ac rwy'n gobeithio'n fawr y bydd eleni'n gweld twf cyflym arall yn nifer y tai rhent cymdeithasol, sef y math o ddeiliadaeth sydd fwyaf o'i angen yn economi Cymru.  

Thank you, Minister. I welcome the tone that you're engaging with us on. I'm glad that you do agree with the general thrust of what we're saying here. So, just to put on the record, then, that, if we were to take a more reasonable look at the track record of the Government in delivering affordable housing in the definition in its wider sense of what it should mean, which I think that you agree with us on, we'd need to remove those homes that were beyond the price range of so many people and take out those 5,500 unaffordable homes, and that would actually mean that the Government has delivered 7,579 and you're thus on course to fail in reaching that target. So, I'd welcome your—

Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Rwy'n croesawu'r cywair a ddefnyddiwch wrth siarad â ni. Rwy'n falch eich bod yn cytuno â byrdwn cyffredinol yr hyn rydym yn ei ddweud yma. Felly, er mwyn ei gofnodi felly, pe baem yn bwrw golwg fwy rhesymol ar gyflawniad y Llywodraeth yn darparu tai fforddiadwy yn ôl y diffiniad yn yr ystyr ehangach o'r hyn y dylai ei olygu, a chredaf eich bod yn cytuno â ni ar hynny, byddai angen inni gael gwared ar y cartrefi a oedd y tu hwnt i gyrraedd cynifer o bobl, a thynnu'r 5,500 o gartrefi anfforddiadwy allan, a byddai hynny, mewn gwirionedd, yn golygu bod y Llywodraeth wedi darparu 7,579 ac felly rydych ar y trywydd cywir i fethu cyrraedd y targed hwnnw. Felly, buaswn yn croesawu eich—

Okay, so my answer to that is, however, the target was set in light of the definition that was available—

Iawn, fy ateb i hynny, fodd bynnag, yw bod y targed wedi'i osod yng ngoleuni'r diffiniad a oedd ar gael—

I don't think the Member had quite finished her question, if you don't mind. I know you're keen, Minister, but if you allow her to finish her question. 

Nid wyf yn credu bod yr Aelod wedi gorffen ei chwestiwn, os nad oes ots gennych. Rwy'n gwybod eich bod yn awyddus, Weinidog, ond os gwnewch chi ganiatáu iddi orffen ei chwestiwn.

No, thank you for agreeing with me on that. I wait to hear your answer more fully. But, as you were just saying about social housing, I also think that that is where we really need to be focusing delivery on. I welcome again what you've been saying on that. The figures show that, since 2016, there have been just 4,397 completed homes for the social housing sector, and that's around half of the rate that we need to reach, according to most estimates, the target. So, given this, and the findings that around half of the affordable homes that were promised through planning obligations over the past decade haven't been delivered, because developers, they exploit our failing planning system, when do you think that we will see the radical changes to planning that you've hinted at? 

Na, diolch i chi am gytuno â mi ar hynny. Arhosaf i glywed eich ateb yn llawnach. Ond fel roeddech yn sôn am dai cymdeithasol, rwyf innau hefyd yn credu mai dyna lle mae gwir angen inni ganolbwyntio ar gyflawni. Unwaith eto, rwy'n croesawu'r hyn rydych wedi bod yn ei ddweud am hynny. Mae'r ffigurau'n dangos, ers 2016, mai dim ond 4,397 o gartrefi sydd wedi'u cwblhau ar gyfer y sector tai cymdeithasol, ac mae hynny tua hanner y gyfradd rydym ei hangen i gyrraedd y targed yn ôl y rhan fwyaf o amcangyfrifon. Felly, o ystyried hyn, a'r canfyddiadau nad yw tua hanner y cartrefi fforddiadwy a addawyd drwy rwymedigaethau cynllunio dros y degawd diwethaf wedi'u darparu, oherwydd bod datblygwyr yn manteisio ar ein system gynllunio ddiffygiol, pa bryd y credwch y gwelwn y newidiadau radical a grybwyllwyd gennych i'r dref gynllunio?

Okay. So, as I was saying, I don't think it's fair to say that we don't meet the target, because the target's set in the light of the definition of affordable homes that existed at the time, and the target was set in that light. So, if you're going to take the Help to Buy houses out of that you'd lower the target necessarily, because we wouldn't never have set it in that way if we weren't including those houses. So, although I take the point you're trying to make, I think that's beating us with a stick unnecessarily, shall we say? There are other sticks that you can beat us with that are perhaps more justifiable.

One of which is that one of the biggest problems we've had in the delivery of the element of affordable homes in private sector planning applications is that councils have really had their score base decimated. And so, actually, in negotiating the 106 agreements, councils have not necessarily been able to hold the line that they would have liked to have held against the house builders and developers in that negotiation. So, very much a part of the local government Bill, that we were discussing in committee together this morning, is making those regional arrangements so that we can pool the skills necessary to get councils to be able to withstand those kinds of conversations. 

But at the same time, there's a whole series of other things we need to do. Actually, I think we've done rather well considering the level of constraint there was in building social housing over the last two years. But you'll see a huge change in scale and pace now that the caps have been taken off and we've changed the way that we hold public sector land. 

So, just to remind the Chamber, Llywydd, we've changed the way that the Welsh Government holds its land. It's been centralised into the public land division with my colleague Rebecca Evans and their instruction is that all land going for housing that's in Welsh Government ownership will have 50 per cent social-rented housing on it and then an element of affordable on top of it. And that land supply makes a huge difference to the acceleration of the way that we build social housing.

We're in conversation now with the Welsh Local Government Association and health boards and other things to really sell the public sector land under a similar scheme, because the biggest problem for the building of social homes is the acquisition of the land, not just the building of the houses. So, we're very much stepping up to that plate, and I think you'll see a step change in the numbers coming forward as the starts accelerate. What you're seeing at the moment is the completion of starts done under the old system, which was obviously much more restrictive.

Iawn. Fel roeddwn yn ei ddweud, nid wyf yn credu ei bod yn deg dweud nad ydym yn cyrraedd y targed, gan fod y targed wedi'i osod yn ôl y diffiniad o dai fforddiadwy a oedd yn bodoli ar y pryd, ac fe gafodd y targed ei osod yn y goleuni hwnnw. Felly, os ydych yn mynd i dynnu'r tai Cymorth i Brynu allan o hwnnw, byddech o anghenraid yn gostwng y targed, oherwydd ni fyddem byth wedi'i osod yn y ffordd honno pe na baem yn cynnwys y tai hynny. Felly, er fy mod yn derbyn y pwynt rydych yn ceisio ei wneud, rwy'n credu eich bod yn ein beirniadu'n ddiangen, gawn ni ddweud? Mae yna bethau eraill y gallwch ein beirniadu yn eu cylch yn fwy haeddiannol o bosibl.

Un o'r problemau mwyaf rydym wedi'u cael wrth gyflawni'r elfen cartrefi fforddiadwy mewn ceisiadau cynllunio yn y sector preifat yw bod sylfaen sgôr cynghorau wedi cael ei dinistrio mewn gwirionedd. Ac felly wrth drafod y 106 o gytundebau, nid yw cynghorau o reidrwydd wedi gallu cadw at y safbwynt y byddent wedi hoffi ei arddel yn erbyn datblygwyr ac adeiladwyr y tai yn y trafodaethau hynny. Felly, rhan fawr o'r Bil llywodraeth leol roeddem yn ei drafod yn y pwyllgor gyda'n gilydd y bore yma yw gwneud y trefniadau rhanbarthol hynny fel y gallwn gyfuno'r sgiliau sy'n angenrheidiol i alluogi cynghorau i wrthsefyll sgyrsiau o'r fath.

Ond ar yr un pryd, mae yna gyfres gyfan o bethau eraill y mae angen inni eu gwneud. Mewn gwirionedd, rwy'n credu ein bod wedi gwneud yn eithaf da o ystyried lefel y cyfyngiadau sydd wedi bod ar adeiladu tai cymdeithasol dros y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf. Ond fe welwch newid enfawr o ran graddfa a chyflymder gan fod y capiau wedi'u tynnu bellach a'n bod wedi newid y ffordd rydym yn dal tir sector cyhoeddus.  

Felly, i atgoffa'r Siambr, Lywydd, rydym wedi newid y ffordd y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn dal tir. Mae wedi'i ganoli yn yr is-adran tir cyhoeddus gyda fy nghyd-Aelod, Rebecca Evans, a'u cyfarwyddyd yw y bydd 50 y cant o'r tai a adeiladir ar yr holl dir sydd gyfer tai ac sy'n eiddo i Lywodraeth Cymru yn dai rhent cymdeithasol a bydd elfen fforddiadwy ar ben hynny wedyn. Ac mae'r cyflenwad tir hwnnw'n gwneud gwahaniaeth enfawr i gyflymder y ffordd rydym yn adeiladu tai cymdeithasol.

Ar hyn o bryd, rydym yn sgwrsio â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a'r byrddau iechyd a phethau eraill i werthu'r tir sector cyhoeddus o dan gynllun tebyg, oherwydd y broblem fwyaf o ran adeiladu cartrefi cymdeithasol yw caffael y tir, nid adeiladu'r tai. Felly, rydym yn camu i'r adwy'n bendant iawn ar hynny, ac rwy'n credu y gwelwch newid sylweddol yn y niferoedd wrth i'r gwaith adeiladu newydd gyflymu. Yr hyn rydych yn ei weld ar hyn o bryd yw cwblhau'r tai y dechreuwyd eu hadeiladu o dan yr hen system, a oedd yn amlwg yn llawer mwy cyfyngol.

Ail Gartrefi
Second Homes

3. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y camau sydd ar gael i lywodraeth leol i atal cofrestru ail gartrefi fel busnesau? OAQ55010

3. Will the Minister make a statement on the steps available to local government to prevent second homes being registered as businesses? OAQ55010

If a property is a second home, it is classified as a domestic dwelling. The registration of businesses is not in itself devolved.

Os yw eiddo yn ail gartref, fe'i hystyrir yn annedd ddomestig. Nid yw cofrestru busnesau ynddo'i hun wedi'i ddatganoli.

I was in Rhosneigr at a coffee morning recently, and a group of ladies who were busy making me a cuppa at the time said, 'Can we have a public meeting to discuss the red bins issue?' I wasn't sure what they meant, so they explained: 'Oh, you know, when people register their holiday homes as businesses, they have their domestic bins changed for business ones, red ones. There are more and more of them in the village, and it's wrong, they're not paying their taxes.'

Now, in November 2018, the former First Minister told me that he didn't believe there was a loophole here. The finance Minister, Rebecca Evans, also said, 'I'm not sure that I would agree that there's a loophole in the law'. Let's have a look at definitions of 'loophole'. The Cambridge dictionary says:

'loophole: a small mistake in an agreement or law that gives someone the chance to avoid having to do something'.

The Collins dictionary says:

'A loophole in the law is a small mistake which allows people to do something that would otherwise be illegal.'

And that's the point here. Certainly, it should be illegal to buy a second home and then be able to avoid paying the taxes that other full-time citizens of that same community do have to pay, and still expect to receive the same services. What the red bins story tells us is that this is becoming more and more visible and that people are getting angrier and angrier about it. 

Now, if Government won't agree that there is a loophole here, will you agree that there is a small mistake in legislation currently that has consequences that may well be unintended, but that has to be addressed in the name of fairness and in the name of providing local authorities much-needed revenue that is otherwise lost?

Roeddwn yn Rhosneigr mewn bore coffi yn ddiweddar, a dywedodd grŵp o fenywod a oedd yn brysur yn gwneud paned i mi ar y pryd, 'A allwn ni gael cyfarfod cyhoeddus i drafod mater y biniau coch?' Nid oeddwn yn siŵr beth roeddent yn ei olygu, felly fe wnaethant esbonio: 'O, wyddoch chi, pan fydd pobl yn cofrestru eu cartrefi gwyliau fel busnesau, mae eu biniau domestig yn cael eu newid am rai busnes, rhai coch. Mae mwy a mwy ohonynt yn y pentref, ac mae'n anghywir, nid ydynt yn talu eu trethi.'

Nawr, ym mis Tachwedd 2018, dywedodd y cyn Brif Weinidog wrthyf nad oedd yn credu bod bwlch yn y gyfraith yma. Dywedodd y Gweinidog cyllid, Rebecca Evans, hefyd, 'Nid wyf yn siŵr a fyddwn yn cytuno bod yna fwlch yn y gyfraith'. Gadewch i ni edrych ar ddiffiniadau o 'loophole'.

Mae geiriadur Caergrawnt yn ei alw'n gamgymeriad bach mewn cytundeb neu yn y gyfraith sy'n rhoi cyfle i rywun osgoi gorfod gwneud rhywbeth.

Mae geiriadur Collins yn dweud mai

camgymeriad bach yw 'loophole' yn y gyfraith sy'n caniatáu i bobl wneud rhywbeth a fyddai fel arall yn anghyfreithlon.

A dyna'r pwynt yma. Yn sicr, dylai fod yn anghyfreithlon i brynu ail gartref a gallu osgoi talu'r trethi y mae'n rhaid i ddinasyddion amser llawn eraill yn yr un gymuned eu talu, a dal i ddisgwyl cael yr un gwasanaethau. Yr hyn y mae stori'r biniau coch yn ei ddweud wrthym yw bod hyn yn dod yn fwy a mwy gweladwy a bod pobl yn mynd yn fwyfwy dig am y peth.

Nawr, os na wnaiff y Llywodraeth gytuno bod bwlch yn y gyfraith yma, a ydych yn cytuno bod camgymeriad bach yn y ddeddfwriaeth ar hyn o bryd sydd â chanlyniadau a allai fod yn anfwriadol, ond bod yn rhaid rhoi sylw i hynny yn enw tegwch ac yn enw darparu refeniw mawr ei angen i awdurdodau lleol, refeniw a gollir fel arall?

So, I take the point the Member is trying to make, but I don't think it is a loophole within any of the definitions you've just said, and that's because it's intended. A loophole is an unintended consequence, and actually this is an intended consequence.

Just to be clear how it works, because I think there's a great deal of misunderstanding amongst people about how exactly this works: so, when somebody acquires a property, they have to class it as a dwelling or as a business. If they class it as a dwelling, then it's a second home if it's not occupied all the time, and then it's subject to the council tax system prevalent in that authority.

Some authorities have doubled the council tax on second homes, others have actually halved it, depending on their local circumstances and what they're trying to achieve. That's a matter for local discretion and they can do what they like.

What you're describing is when someone acquires a property and then says it's not a domestic property, it's actually part of a business and they're letting it out as self-catering or whatever. There are strict rules about what they have to do to do that, and they have to apply through the valuation office, they must complete the forms and provide documentary evidence the property met the letting criteria, and the Valuation Office Agency reviews the evidence before making a change to the lists, and then it's a registered business. Only two properties are allowed per registered business to count as a small business. So, if you're a small business, you can't have more than two properties. And if you're a small business with two properties, you can apply for small business rate relief.

Rwy'n derbyn y pwynt y mae'r Aelod yn ceisio ei wneud, ond nid wyf yn credu ei fod yn fwlch yn y gyfraith yn ôl unrhyw un o'r diffiniadau rydych newydd eu rhoi, ac mae hynny oherwydd ei fod yn fwriadol. Mae bwlch yn y gyfraith yn ganlyniad anfwriadol, ac mewn gwirionedd, mae hwn yn ganlyniad bwriadol.

Hoffwn egluro sut y mae'n gweithio, oherwydd rwy'n credu bod llawer o gamddealltwriaeth ymysg pobl ynglŷn â sut yn union y mae hyn yn gweithio: pan fydd rhywun yn caffael eiddo, mae'n rhaid iddynt nodi a yw'n annedd neu'n fusnes. Os ydynt yn nodi mai annedd ydyw, yna mae'n ail gartref os nad yw wedi'i feddiannu drwy'r amser, ac mae'n ddarostyngedig i system dreth gyngor yr awdurdod hwnnw.

Mae rhai awdurdodau wedi dyblu'r dreth gyngor ar ail gartrefi, tra bo eraill wedi'i haneru mewn gwirionedd, yn dibynnu ar eu hamgylchiadau lleol a'r hyn y maent yn ceisio ei gyflawni. Mater o ddisgresiwn lleol yw hynny a gallant wneud fel y dymunant.

Yr hyn rydych yn ei ddisgrifio yw sefyllfa lle mae rhywun yn caffael eiddo ac yna'n dweud nad yw'n eiddo domestig ond yn hytrach ei fod yn rhan o fusnes ac maent yn ei osod fel llety hunan-arlwyo neu beth bynnag. Ceir rheolau caeth ynglŷn â'r hyn y mae'n rhaid iddynt ei wneud i allu gwneud hynny, ac mae'n rhaid iddynt wneud cais drwy'r swyddfa brisio, mae'n rhaid iddynt lenwi'r ffurflenni a darparu tystiolaeth ddogfennol i ddangos bod yr eiddo wedi bodloni'r meini prawf ar gyfer gosod, ac mae Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio yn adolygu'r dystiolaeth cyn newid y rhestrau, ac yna bydd yn fusnes cofrestredig. Dau eiddo yn unig a ganiateir i bob busnes cofrestredig iddo gael ei gyfrif fel busnes bach. Felly, os ydych yn fusnes bach, ni allwch gael mwy na dau eiddo. Ac os ydych yn fusnes bach sydd â dau eiddo, gallwch wneud cais am ryddhad ardrethi i fusnesau bach.


Well, a holiday home is the same thing—it's still a business, whatever you call it.

Wel, mae cartref gwyliau yr un peth—mae'n dal i fod yn fusnes, beth bynnag rydych yn ei alw.

The Minister is seeking to provide you with an answer, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Mae'r Gweinidog yn ceisio rhoi ateb i chi, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

So, if it's not being let out and it is classed as a small business, and what you're saying is, 'This is not being let out, it's being used as a second home', and the person has done that—that's a fraud. So, that's a criminal offence and would be prosecuted. We have asked—as a result of something Siân Gwenllian asked me to do—all authorities in Wales for any evidence of that, and we have not been provided with any. And we've asked the valuation office to conduct an audit of the ones that they're aware of, and they have not come up with a single one that hasn't legitimately changed across and hasn't been able to provide the evidence necessary to sustain that.

Now, I'll say it again: if you've got evidence that that's happening, let's have it, and I'll do something about it. But so far, at this point in time, we have no—. We have anecdotes of all sorts, including in my own authority and everywhere else, but we have no actual evidence at all that that's actually happening.

Felly, os nad yw'n cael ei osod a'i fod yn cael ei ddosbarthu fel busnes bach, yr hyn rydych yn ei ddweud yw, 'Nid yw hwn yn cael ei osod, mae'n cael ei ddefnyddio fel ail gartref', ac mae'r person wedi gwneud hynny—mae hynny'n dwyll. Felly, mae honno'n drosedd a byddai'r person yn cael ei erlyn. Rydym wedi gofyn—o ganlyniad i rywbeth y gofynnodd Siân Gwenllian i mi ei wneud—i'r holl awdurdodau yng Nghymru am unrhyw dystiolaeth o hynny, ac nid ydym wedi cael unrhyw dystiolaeth. Ac rydym wedi gofyn i'r swyddfa brisio gynnal archwiliad o'r rhai y maent yn ymwybodol ohonynt, ac nid ydynt wedi cyflwyno un sydd heb fod yn newid cyfreithlon ac nid ydynt wedi gallu darparu'r dystiolaeth angenrheidiol i gynnal hynny.

Nawr, rwy'n dweud eto: os oes gennych dystiolaeth fod hynny'n digwydd, gadewch i ni ei gweld, a byddaf yn gwneud rhywbeth am y peth. Ond hyd yn hyn, ar hyn o bryd, nid oes gennym unrhyw—. Mae gennym anecdotau o bob math, gan gynnwys yn fy awdurdod i ac ym mhobman arall, ond nid oes gennym unrhyw dystiolaeth o gwbl fod hynny'n digwydd mewn gwirionedd.

I do recognise the concerns behind this question, but the boundaries between main home, second homes, multiple occupation properties and any business identity have become long blurred since the arrival of Airbnb and other similar daily-rate accommodation companies. If you support the principle of what Plaid thinks of as a second home—which is occupied only periodically by visitors who don't live there full time—being excluded from business registration, then how could you ever expect to collect any tourism tax from them? I think, actually, that's a really good reason for not even considering that tax any further.

Rwy'n cydnabod y pryderon y tu ôl i'r cwestiwn hwn, ond mae'r ffiniau rhwng prif gartref, ail gartrefi, tai amlfeddiannaeth ac unrhyw endid busnes wedi bod yn niwlog ers dyfodiad Airbnb a chwmnïau llety cyfradd ddyddiol tebyg. Os ydych yn cefnogi egwyddor o atal yr hyn y mae Plaid Cymru yn ei ystyried yn ail gartref—nad yw ond wedi'i feddiannu o bryd i'w gilydd gan ymwelwyr nad ydynt yn byw yno yn barhaol—rhag cael ei gofrestru fel busnes, sut y gallech ddisgwyl casglu unrhyw dreth dwristiaeth ganddynt? Rwy'n credu bod hwnnw'n rheswm gwirioneddol dda dros beidio â hyd yn oed ystyried y dreth honno ymhellach.

So, I make the same point: if we have any evidence at all that properties have been incorrectly listed as businesses and not domestic properties, then let's have it, and we'll look at it and do something about it. If a residence is a domestic residence, listed as a domestic residence for occasional occupation, or never occupation—and there's nothing to stop you buying a second home and literally never going to it—as long as it's registered as a domestic premises, then it will pay whatever the relevant council tax for a non-main-home residence is in that area.

You have to positively approach the valuation office and say that you want to register this property as a non-residential property for business use in order to get into this scheme. You have to have two or less of those properties to qualify as a small business and get the rate relief. If you have more than that, you'll be paying non-domestic rates on it instead of council tax, which is not necessarily better, it might be more.

And then the other thing to say is, although the doubling of the charge for second homes in many areas of Wales was not intended in any way as a revenue-raising arrangement—but rather a behaviour modification arrangement—in fact, it's raised very considerable amounts of money across Wales. Far more than ever would have been lost if such a loophole had existed, which I emphasise it does not.

Rwy'n gwneud yr un pwynt: os oes gennym unrhyw dystiolaeth o gwbl fod eiddo wedi cael eu rhestru'n anghywir fel busnesau yn hytrach nag eiddo domestig, gadewch i ni ei gweld, ac fe edrychwn arni a gwneud rhywbeth yn ei gylch. Os yw preswylfa'n breswylfa ddomestig, wedi'i rhestru'n breswylfa ddomestig ar gyfer meddiannaeth achlysurol, neu fel preswylfa na fydd byth yn cael ei meddiannu—ac nid oes unrhyw beth i'ch atal rhag prynu ail gartref heb fynd iddo byth—cyhyd â'i fod wedi'i gofrestru fel annedd ddomestig, bydd yn talu beth bynnag yw'r dreth gyngor berthnasol ar gyfer preswylfa nad yw'n brif gartref yn yr ardal honno.

Mae'n rhaid i chi gysylltu â'r swyddfa brisio a dweud eich bod eisiau cofrestru'r eiddo yn eiddo dibreswyl at ddefnydd busnes er mwyn cael eich cynnwys yn y cynllun hwn. Ni allwch gael mwy na dau eiddo o'r fath i fod yn gymwys fel busnes bach a chael y rhyddhad ardrethi. Os oes gennych fwy na hynny, fe fyddwch yn talu ardrethi annomestig arno yn lle'r dreth gyngor, nad yw o reidrwydd yn well, efallai y bydd yn fwy.

Wedyn y peth arall i'w ddweud yw, mewn perthynas â dyblu'r tâl am ail gartrefi mewn nifer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru, ni fwriadwyd iddo fod yn drefniant codi refeniw mewn unrhyw ffordd—ond yn hytrach yn drefniant i newid ymddygiad—ond mae wedi codi symiau sylweddol iawn o arian ledled Cymru mewn gwirionedd. Llawer mwy nag a fyddai wedi'i golli pe bai bwlch o'r fath wedi bodoli yn y gyfraith, ac rwy'n pwysleisio nad yw hynny'n wir.

Does the Minister share my frustration that it's not clear whether Plaid are complaining about fraud or are complaining about the law? Is the issue that second-home owners are reclassifying them as holiday homes but still living in them themselves part time and not renting them out? In which case that's fraud. Is it that they're not renting them out very much and they're not actually reaching the 10 weeks a year? In which case shall we have some more enforcement? Or is there an argument that, if they're to benefit from having this zero council tax in this way, they should actually be renting them out for longer than 10 weeks a year? In which case why don't we go to the HMRC definition of requiring furnished holiday lettings to be rented out for 15 weeks a year minimum, and available for 30 weeks a year minimum?

A yw'r Gweinidog yn rhannu fy rhwystredigaeth nad yw'n glir a yw Plaid Cymru yn cwyno am dwyll neu'n cwyno am y gyfraith? Ai'r broblem yw bod perchenogion ail gartrefi'n eu hailddosbarthu fel cartrefi gwyliau ond yn dal i fyw ynddynt eu hunain yn rhan-amser yn hytrach na'u gosod ar rent? Os felly, twyll yw hynny. Ai'r broblem yw'r ffaith nad ydynt yn eu gosod ar rent yn aml ac felly nid ydynt yn cyrraedd y trothwy 10 wythnos y flwyddyn? Os felly, a ddylem gymryd camau pellach i orfodi'r gyfraith? Neu a oes dadl, os ydynt yn mynd i elwa o beidio â gorfod talu'r dreth gyngor yn y modd hwn, y dylent fod yn eu gosod ar rent am fwy na 10 wythnos y flwyddyn? Os felly, pam nad ydym yn troi at ddiffiniad Cyllid a Thollau ei Mawrhydi a'i gwneud yn ofynnol i gartrefi gwyliau â dodrefn gael eu gosod ar rent am 15 wythnos y flwyddyn o leiaf, ac ar gael am isafswm o 30 wythnos y flwyddyn?

That's a reasonable analysis. Our analysis from all of the work that we've done on this is that the amount of letting is the right level, because tourism economies are very important across Wales in very small places. So, this is a balance, isn't it, between allowing properties to be used in our very vital tourism industry, and making sure that people are not taking advantage of some loophole. But it's not a loophole if you have to evidence it in the right way. So, if you have evidence that people are not letting their accommodation out in the right way, then let us have it. I've said repeatedly in the Chamber, and I'll say it one more time: I am more than happy to look at any evidence at all that that is happening, but currently I don't have any.

Mae hwnnw'n ddadansoddiad rhesymol. Ein dadansoddiad ni o'r holl waith rydym wedi'i wneud ar hyn yw bod hyd y cyfnod gosod ar y lefel gywir, oherwydd mae economïau twristiaeth yn bwysig iawn ledled Cymru mewn lleoedd bach iawn. Felly, mater o sicrhau cydbwysedd yw hyn rhwng caniatáu i eiddo gael ei ddefnyddio yn ein diwydiant twristiaeth hollbwysig, a sicrhau nad yw pobl yn manteisio ar ryw fwlch yn y gyfraith. Ond nid yw'n fwlch os oes rhaid i chi ddangos tystiolaeth ohono yn y ffordd iawn. Felly, os oes gennych dystiolaeth nad yw pobl yn gosod eu llety yn y ffordd gywir, gadewch inni ei gweld. Rwyf wedi dweud dro ar ôl tro yn y Siambr, ac rwyf am ei ddweud unwaith eto: rwy'n fwy na pharod i edrych ar unrhyw dystiolaeth o gwbl fod hynny'n digwydd, ond ar hyn o bryd nid oes gennyf dystiolaeth.

Ail Gartrefi
Second Homes

4. Pa asesiad mae'r Gweinidog wedi ei wneud o effaith canran uchel o ail gartrefi ar yr angen am dai o fewn cymunedau? OAQ55005

4. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of a high percentage of second homes on housing need within communities? OAQ55005

I recognise that price and availability of homes for local people in parts of Wales are being impacted by second-home ownership. To understand this impact in their areas, local authorities are required to conduct local housing market assessments and apply strategies to meet the requirements of their communities.

Rwy'n cydnabod bod pris ac argaeledd cartrefi i bobl leol mewn rhannau o Gymru'n cael eu heffeithio gan berchnogaeth ar ail gartrefi. Er mwyn deall yr effaith hon yn eu hardaloedd, mae'n ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol gynnal asesiadau o'r farchnad dai leol a defnyddio strategaethau i fodloni gofynion eu cymunedau.

Mae yna faterion ehangach na'r sgil effaith yma sydd yn digwydd yn y system dreth, wrth gwrs. Ond mae angen datrys hwnnw, ac mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yn cytuno efo ni mai addasu adran 66 o Ddeddf Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol 1992 ydy'r ffordd ymlaen. Felly, dim jest ni ar y meinciau yma sydd yn sôn am hyn; mae'r gymdeithas llywodraeth leol, sy'n cynrychioli holl gynghorau Cymru, yn dweud bod angen addasu adran 66 ar fyrder. Ond dydych chi ddim am fynd lawr y llwybr yna; dwi ddim cweit yn deall pam.

Ond mae yna faterion ehangach, wrth gwrs, onid oes? O'r tai a gafodd eu gwerthu yng Ngwynedd yn ddiweddar, roedd 40 y cant ohonyn nhw yn cael eu gwerthu fel ail gartrefi. Rŵan, mae hwnna'n ffigur anferth ac mae'r math yna o newid cymdeithasol ac economaidd yn gadael ein cymunedau ni yn leoedd llwm iawn, iawn y rhan fwyaf o adeg y flwyddyn.

Felly, pa waith cyffredinol mae'ch Llywodraeth chi wedi'i wneud i ystyried hyn i gyd? Er enghraifft, ydy hi wedi dod yn amser rŵan i ni ei gwneud hi'n ofynnol i unrhyw un sydd yn dymuno trosi tŷ annedd yn ail gartref—yn enwedig yn yr ardaloedd yma lle mae yna nifer uchel iawn o ail gartrefi— bod nhw angen caniatâd cynllunio cyn gwneud hynny?

Mae yna newidiadau cynllunio eraill y gellid eu hystyried. Mae rhannau eraill—mae Cernyw, mae Ardal y Llynnoedd, wedi mynd i'r afael â hyn.

There are broader issues than just the impact within the taxation system. But we do need a resolution to that, and the WLGA agrees with us that changing section 66 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 is the way forward. So, it's not just on these benches that are talking about this; the WLGA, representing all Welsh councils, has also said that we need to amend that legislation as a matter of urgency. But you're not going to go down that route; I don't quite understand why.

But there are broader issues, of course, aren't there? Of the homes sold in Gwynedd recently, 40 per cent of them were sold as second homes. Now, that is a huge figure, and that kind of social and economic change leaves our communities much, much worse off for most of the year.

So, what general work has your Government done in order to take all of these issues into account? For example, is it now time for us to make it a requirement for anyone who wishes to convert a home into a second home—particularly in these areas where there are very high numbers of second homes—that they would need planning consent before they could make that change?

There are other changes to the planning system that could be considered. Other areas—Cornwall and the Lake District have tackled this.

Mae angen cwestiwn, i ddod â'r cwestiwn yma i ben. 

We do need a question now, so that we can conclude this question.

Dwi yn teimlo yn angerddol am hwn, fel rydych chi'n gwybod, ond y cwestiwn ydy: pa newidiadau eraill, heblaw yr ochr drethiannol, fedr eich Llywodraeth chi eu hystyried a mynd i'r afael â nhw er mwyn datrys y broblem yma? 

I feel passionately about this, as you know, but the question is: what other changes, apart from the taxation changes, could your Government consider implementing in order to resolve this problem?

Siân Gwenllian, I hope, knows that I'm also very sympathetic to the problem, and I do absolutely recognise that that exists. We have had a look at things like trying to control it through the planning system, but when somebody is conducting the sale of a private house to a private individual or to a company, it would be very difficult at that point to say that that sale couldn't continue once the identity of the owner was known and they had declared it was a second home.

There are also all kinds of other issues that might seem trivial but are really problematic in a legal system. So, I buy the house as my main house, and then I get married to somebody who lives in London and I only come back at weekends, so have I suddenly converted it into a second home and breached the planning rule? There are lots of difficult problems. That doesn't make me not sympathetic to the problem; I think there are a number of things we can do. 

We know that rural areas have particularly high challenges with this, and very beautiful parts of the country have specific problems. Gwynedd, you're absolutely right in identifying. Gwynedd is 9.9 per cent, fourth in the list of authorities with second homes in Britain. So, you're absolutely right that it's a huge problem for us. But I think we need to attack it in a number of ways.

We have a rural strategic group that consists of rural housing enablers—housing associations, local authorities, Community Housing Cymru and the WLGA—that meets quarterly. We've got a good forum to encourage and test ideas for what can be done. We're encouraging things like the use of the council tax premiums. I'm happy to look at whether we should increase that yet again if house prices—. A house in my village has just sold for £2.8 million to a couple from London who I don't think plan to live there permanently. My children will never live in a village that has houses selling for that; I have a lot of sympathy with where you're coming from. 

So, I think what we need to do is identify land, particularly in rural, Welsh-speaking communities, where the children of the villages want to live, and identify houses that we can build that are either for social rent with a local element attached to that, or for mixed equity—so shared equity arrangements with local housing associations or with the local council—or other arrangements such as self-build with residents' requirements as a result of the grant, and various other things that we can do to encourage the building of the right kind of houses, so that local people, young people in particular, can be encouraged to stay in our communities. 

So, I have a lot of sympathy with that, but I don't think the planning system is the right way to do it. What we have to do is find a tool that works. So, I'm very happy to invite you along to one of the sessions with the rural housing enabler arrangements, and we're very happy to look at any other good ideas from across the Chamber, Llywydd, as I know a large number of people have these problems in their constituencies and regions, to look to see what we can do that would work and not involve us in endless legal disputes around the point of sale for various houses across Wales.

Rwy'n gobeithio bod Siân Gwenllian yn gwybod fy mod innau hefyd yn cydymdeimlo'n fawr â'r broblem, ac rwy'n llwyr gydnabod ei bod yn bodoli. Rydym wedi edrych ar bethau fel ceisio ei rheoli drwy'r system gynllunio, ond pan fydd rhywun yn gwerthu tŷ preifat i unigolyn preifat neu i gwmni, byddai'n anodd iawn dweud, ar y pwynt hwnnw, na allai'r gwerthiant barhau pan fyddai'n dod yn hysbys pwy yw'r perchennog a'u bod wedi datgan ei fod yn ail gartref.

Ceir pob math o broblemau eraill hefyd a allai ymddangos yn ddibwys ond sy'n wirioneddol broblemus mewn system gyfreithiol. Felly, rwy'n prynu'r tŷ fel fy mhrif dŷ, ac yna rwy'n priodi rhywun sy'n byw yn Llundain ac nid wyf ond yn dychwelyd ar benwythnosau, felly a wyf wedi'i droi'n ail gartref yn sydyn ac wedi torri'r rheol gynllunio? Ceir llawer o broblemau anodd. Nid yw hynny'n golygu nad wyf yn cydymdeimlo â'r broblem; rwy'n credu bod nifer o bethau y gallwn eu gwneud.  

Gwyddom fod gan ardaloedd gwledig heriau arbennig o fawr mewn perthynas â hyn, ac mae gan rannau prydferth iawn o'r wlad broblemau penodol. Rydych yn llygad eich lle yn nodi Gwynedd. Mae canran Gwynedd yn 9.9 y cant, ac yn bedwerydd yn y rhestr o awdurdodau sydd ag ail gartrefi ym Mhrydain. Felly, rydych yn llygad eich lle ei bod yn broblem enfawr i ni. Ond rwy'n credu bod angen i ni fynd i'r afael â hi mewn nifer o ffyrdd.

Mae gennym grŵp strategol gwledig sy'n cynnwys swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig—cymdeithasau tai, awdurdodau lleol, Cartrefi Cymunedol Cymru a CLlLC—sy'n cyfarfod bob chwarter. Mae gennym fforwm da i annog a phrofi syniadau ynglŷn â'r hyn y gellir ei wneud. Rydym yn annog pethau fel defnyddio premiymau'r dreth gyngor. Rwy'n fodlon ystyried a ddylem gynyddu'r rheini eto fyth os yw prisiau tai—. Mae tŷ yn fy mhentref newydd werthu am £2.8 miliwn i gwpl o Lundain ac nid wyf yn credu eu bod yn bwriadu byw yno'n barhaol. Ni fydd fy mhlant byth yn byw mewn pentref lle mae tai'n gwerthu am brisiau felly; mae gennyf lawer o gydymdeimlad â'ch safbwynt.  

Felly, credaf mai'r hyn sydd angen inni ei wneud yw nodi tir, yn enwedig mewn cymunedau gwledig, Cymraeg eu hiaith, lle mae plant y pentrefi eisiau byw, a nodi tai y gallwn eu hadeiladu naill ai ar gyfer rhent cymdeithasol gydag elfen leol ynghlwm wrth hynny, neu ar gyfer ecwiti cymysg—felly trefniadau ecwiti a rennir gyda chymdeithasau tai lleol neu gyda'r cyngor lleol—neu drefniadau eraill fel hunanadeiladu gyda gofynion preswylio o ganlyniad i'r grant, ac amryw o bethau eraill y gallwn eu gwneud i annog adeiladu'r math cywir o dai, fel y gellir annog pobl leol, a phobl ifanc yn arbennig, i aros yn ein cymunedau.  

Felly, mae gennyf lawer o gydymdeimlad â hynny, ond nid wyf yn credu mai'r system gynllunio yw'r ffordd gywir o'i wneud. Yr hyn sy'n rhaid i ni ei wneud yw dod o hyd i arf sy'n gweithio. Felly, rwy'n fwy na pharod i'ch gwahodd i un o'r sesiynau ynghylch trefniadau'r swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig, ac rydym yn hapus iawn i edrych ar unrhyw syniadau da eraill ar draws y Siambr, Lywydd, gan fy mod yn gwybod bod gan nifer fawr o bobl y problemau hyn yn eu hetholaethau a'u rhanbarthau, er mwyn gweld beth y gallwn ei wneud a fyddai'n gweithio heb gael ein cynnwys mewn anghydfodau cyfreithiol diddiwedd wrth werthu gwahanol dai ledled Cymru.


Minister, I remember Dafydd Wigley raising this issue in the first Assembly and talking about where they do have controlled housing markets, like the Channel Islands—that bastion of socialism in the English channel. The thing is, we do have a culture more widely in Britain of free market and second-home ownership, which I respect, but a lot of those people are also tempted sometimes to buy in Spain, in Italy, in France, where there's profound rural depopulation and villages lie empty, often. And it's a slightly different situation, to put it mildly, that we are facing, and we need a range of strategies: higher council tax where there is high housing need but second homes are being purchased; empty home strategies; and modest but necessary building up of villages. Now, it's one thing to have a pretty, pretty village, but it's not very pretty for the local young people if they cannot afford to live there and raise families. So, appropriate development, just like our ancestors have done for generations, should be required.

Weinidog, rwy'n cofio Dafydd Wigley yn codi'r mater hwn yn y Cynulliad cyntaf ac yn sôn am ble mae ganddynt farchnadoedd tai rheoledig, fel Ynysoedd y Sianel—y cadarnle sosialaidd hwnnw yn y Sianel. Y peth yw, mae gennym ddiwylliant ehangach ym Mhrydain o berchentyaeth ail gartrefi a marchnad rydd, ac rwy'n parchu hynny, ond mae llawer o'r bobl hynny hefyd yn cael eu temtio weithiau i brynu yn Sbaen, yn yr Eidal, yn Ffrainc, lle ceir diboblogi gwledig dwys a phentrefi gwag yn aml. Ac mae'r sefyllfa rydym yn ei hwynebu ychydig yn wahanol, a dweud y lleiaf, ac mae arnom angen ystod o strategaethau: treth gyngor uwch lle mae llawer o angen am dai ond mae ail gartrefi'n cael eu prynu; strategaethau cartrefi gwag; ac adeiladu cymedrol ond angenrheidiol mewn pentrefi. Nawr, mae cael pentref tlws yn un peth, ond nid yw'n dlws iawn i'r bobl ifanc leol os na allant fforddio byw yno a magu teuluoedd. Felly, dylai fod angen datblygu priodol, yn union fel y mae ein hynafiaid wedi'i wneud ers cenedlaethau.

I completely agree with you. We're not opposing that in any way. It is just about making sure that we get the right houses in the right places for the right people. But we must also guard against unintended consequences. I don't know if you are aware, but St Ives recently had the experience where they restricted the building of homes for out-of-town buyers and that resulted in no houses being built at all because it simply wasn't feasible. So, you have unintended consequences of that. That's not what they wanted, but that's what they got. So, what we're very keen to do is to find the right levers to do that, to allow the village envelope to increase slightly with the right kind of houses and all the rest of it.

I just emphasise as well that, of course, because of our set of planning rules, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the Welsh language planning Act all interacting, the Welsh language is a very big part of this as well. So, we do want to preserve our Welsh-speaking communities and make sure that they aren't currently inundated with large numbers of people who wouldn't be able to learn the language in an appropriate timescale for the local school and so on. So, large numbers of considerations are expected to be applied by local planning authorities in Wales when they are looking at this. I'm very happy to work with groups of AMs and with our rural enabler people and so on to look at any ideas at all that can encourage the building of the right kind of houses in the right kind of places.

As David Melding rightly says, we don't have the kinds of problems they have in Spain and Portugal in some areas, but in little bits of Wales, like Gwynedd and some of the Pembrokeshire coast, we really do have a problem that is accelerating.

Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â chi. Nid ydym yn gwrthwynebu hynny mewn unrhyw ffordd. Mae'n ymwneud â sicrhau ein bod yn cael y tai iawn yn y lleoedd iawn ar gyfer y bobl iawn. Ond mae'n rhaid inni warchod hefyd rhag canlyniadau anfwriadol. Nid wyf yn gwybod a ydych yn ymwybodol, ond yn ddiweddar, cafodd St Ives brofiad lle rhoesant gyfyngiadau ar godi tai i brynwyr o'r tu allan ac o ganlyniad, ni chodwyd unrhyw dai o gwbl, gan nad oedd yn ddichonol gwneud hynny. Felly, mae gennych ganlyniadau anfwriadol yn sgil hynny. Nid dyna roeddent ei eisiau, ond dyna a gawsant. Felly, yr hyn rydym yn awyddus iawn i'w wneud yw nodi'r ysgogiadau cywir i wneud hynny, er mwyn caniatáu i amlen y pentref gynyddu ychydig gyda'r math cywir o dai a phopeth arall.

Pwysleisiaf hefyd, wrth gwrs, gan fod ein set o reolau cynllunio, Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau’r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 a'r Ddeddf cynllunio a'r Gymraeg yn rhyngweithio â'i gilydd, fod y Gymraeg yn rhan fawr iawn o hyn hefyd. Felly, rydym yn awyddus i warchod ein cymunedau Cymraeg eu hiaith a sicrhau nad ydynt yn cael eu boddi ar hyn o bryd gan nifer fawr o bobl na fyddent yn gallu dysgu'r iaith o fewn amser priodol ar gyfer yr ysgol leol ac ati. Felly, mae disgwyl i awdurdodau cynllunio lleol yng Nghymru gadw nifer fawr o ystyriaethau mewn cof wrth edrych ar hyn. Rwy'n fwy na pharod i weithio gyda grwpiau o ACau a chyda'n pobl galluogi gwledig ac ati i edrych ar unrhyw syniadau o gwbl a all annog adeiladu'r math cywir o dai yn y math cywir o leoedd.

Fel y dywedodd David Melding yn gwbl gywir, nid oes gennym y mathau o broblemau sydd ganddynt yn Sbaen a Phortiwgal mewn rhai ardaloedd, ond mewn rhannau bach o Gymru, fel Gwynedd a pheth o arfordir Sir Benfro, mae gennym broblem go iawn sy'n gwaethygu.

Plastigau Untro
Single-use Plastics

5. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gynigion Llywodraeth Cymru i fynd i'r afael â phlastigau untro? OAQ54986

5. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s proposals to tackle single-use plastics? OAQ54986

I recently launched our circular economy strategy, 'Beyond Recycling', which includes the headline action to phase out single-use plastic. Alongside this, we are working on game-changing reforms such as extended producer responsibility for packaging, a deposit-return scheme and a ban on certain single-use plastics.  

Yn ddiweddar, lansiais ein strategaeth economi gylchol, 'Mwy Nag Ailgylchu', sy'n cynnwys cael gwared ar blastig untro yn raddol fel un o'r prif gamau gweithredu. Ynghyd â hyn, rydym yn gweithio ar ddiwygiadau arloesol fel cyfrifoldeb estynedig cynhyrchwyr ar gyfer deunydd pacio, cynllun dychwelyd ernes a gwaharddiad ar rai mathau o blastig untro.

That's really good news to hear. The Minister must be as frustrated as I am when we go to the supermarkets that proclaim all the good work that they're doing on reducing plastics and we still see fruit and veg aisles lined with plastic-wrapped fruit and veg. It's quite interesting today that I've just spotted an organisation called Plastic Expiry, which is taking peaceful direct action by putting stickers on those plastic products labelling them, 'plastic expiry by 24 January 2499'. Consumers are leading the way in peaceful protest.

But we had a great debate here last October, cross-party support, a motion that was passed by the House—pushing, encouraging and working with the Minister to say, 'Let's become that nation that becomes a global leader in sustainable consumption and in reducing plastic waste and single-use plastics in particular'. Could I ask her: are all tools on the table, including things such as appropriate tax and levies, bans on appropriate and specific single-use plastics? And will she continue to work with all those campaigning organisations, including the Marine Conservation Society, Keep Wales Tidy and Friends of the Earth—thank you for meeting with us the other day—but also those others out there who want to make this change because we know that the tide of plastic pollution is rising and we've got to stop it?

Mae hynny'n newyddion da iawn i'w glywed. Mae'n rhaid fod y Gweinidog yn teimlo mor rhwystredig â minnau pan awn i'r archfarchnadoedd sy'n brolio am yr holl waith da a wnânt ar leihau'r defnydd o blastig ac rydym yn dal i weld eiliau ffrwythau a llysiau yn llawn ffrwythau a llysiau wedi'u pecynnu mewn plastig. Mae'n ddiddorol nodi heddiw fy mod newydd weld sefydliad o'r enw Plastic Expiry, sy'n gweithredu'n uniongyrchol mewn modd heddychlon drwy roi sticeri ar y cynhyrchion plastig sy'n dweud, 'dyddiad dod i ben y plastig yw 24 Ionawr 2499'. Mae'r defnyddwyr yn arwain y ffordd drwy brotestio'n heddychlon.

Ond cawsom ddadl wych yma fis Hydref y llynedd, cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol, cynnig a dderbyniwyd gan y Tŷ—gan wthio, annog a gweithio gyda'r Gweinidog i ddweud, 'Dewch i ni fod yn genedl sy'n arwain y byd o ran defnydd cynaliadwy a lleihau gwastraff plastig a phlastigau untro yn enwedig'. A gaf fi ofyn iddi: a ydym yn gwneud popeth a allwn, gan gynnwys pethau fel trethi ac ardollau priodol, gwaharddiadau ar blastigau untro priodol a phenodol? Ac a fydd yn parhau i weithio gyda'r holl sefydliadau ymgyrchu, gan gynnwys y Gymdeithas Cadwraeth Forol, Cadwch Gymru'n Daclus a Chyfeillion y Ddaear—diolch am gyfarfod â ni y diwrnod o'r blaen—ond hefyd y bobl eraill sy'n dymuno gwneud y newid hwn gan y gwyddom fod y llanw o lygredd plastig yn codi ac mae'n rhaid i ni ei atal?

I think the short answer is 'absolutely yes'. I'm incredibly proud of our role and our record as a global leader and the recognition we've received of that previously from places as far afield as Australia. But we've outlined our ambition that we actually want to step up that and take that further, and to actually drive the change in the future.

And you mentioned some of the individuals and organisations that are taking matters into their own hands, and just about the labelling, I think that is very creative. And in my own constituency, there have been Maximum Wraps, where people have done their shopping, and there's a team of volunteers there getting rid of all the excess plastic that isn't necessary there. You're absolutely right about this consumer willpower and this energy in our communities to do something, and we really need to harness that as a Government and across our communities as well.

So, that's why one of the key elements for me in this consultation, which I much prefer to call a conversation, because I think that's what it should be, is actually about how we both enable businesses to be part of that but importantly, that we empower communities too. So, as part of that, I'm actually going around every region of Wales, talking to businesses, talking to community groups, as well as officials doing it, to actually make sure they're part of that as well and actually influence the change. Because we know they want it, and there are things that we can do as a Government in terms of legislation and policy, but we need that cultural change as well, and I think people need to be part of that. So, absolutely, I'm very keen to continue that and continue the conversation with everybody who wants to be part of it.

Credaf mai'r ateb byr yw 'yn sicr'. Rwy'n hynod falch o'n rôl a'n cyflawniad fel arweinydd byd-eang a'r gydnabyddiaeth rydym eisoes wedi'i chael i hynny mewn lleoedd mor bell i ffwrdd ag Awstralia. Ond rydym wedi amlinellu ein huchelgais i wneud mwy ac i fynd â hynny ymhellach, a sbarduno newid yn y dyfodol.

Ac fe sonioch chi am rai o'r unigolion a'r sefydliadau sy'n mynd i'r afael â hyn eu hunain, ac o ran y labelu, credaf fod hynny'n greadigol iawn. Ac yn fy etholaeth i, cynhaliwyd Maximum Wraps, lle mae pobl wedi bod yn siopa, ac mae tîm o wirfoddolwyr yno'n cael gwared ar yr holl blastig gormodol nad yw'n angenrheidiol. Rydych yn llygad eich lle ynglŷn ag ewyllys y defnyddwyr a'r egni hwn yn ein cymunedau i wneud rhywbeth, ac mae gwir angen inni harneisio hynny fel Llywodraeth ac ar draws ein cymunedau hefyd.

Felly, dyna pam fod un o'r elfennau allweddol i mi yn yr ymgynghoriad hwn, y mae'n well o lawer gennyf ei alw'n sgwrs gan y credaf mai dyna ddylai fod, yn ymwneud â sut rydym yn galluogi busnesau i gymryd rhan yn hynny o beth, ond yn bwysicach fyth, ein bod yn grymuso cymunedau hefyd. Felly, fel rhan o hynny, rwy'n ymweld â phob rhanbarth yng Nghymru, yn siarad â busnesau, yn siarad â grwpiau cymunedol, ac mae swyddogion yn gwneud yr un peth, i sicrhau eu bod hwythau'n cymryd rhan yn hynny hefyd ac yn dylanwadu ar y newid. Oherwydd gwyddom eu bod yn dymuno gweld hyn yn digwydd, ac mae pethau y gallwn eu gwneud fel Llywodraeth o ran deddfwriaeth a pholisi, ond mae angen newid diwylliannol o'r fath arnom hefyd, a chredaf fod angen i bobl fod yn rhan o hynny. Felly, yn sicr, rwy'n awyddus iawn i barhau â hynny a pharhau â'r sgwrs gyda phawb sy'n dymuno bod yn rhan ohoni.


Deputy Minister, earlier this week, I met with pupils from St Aidan's Church in Wales School in Wiston just outside Haverfordwest in my constituency, which has set up a petition to ban single-use plastic milk bottles in schools across Wales. I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's great to see children and young people engaging with our petitions process and taking action on some of our biggest issues. In the circumstances, what support can the Welsh Government offer to the pupils of St Aidan's Church in Wales School, and what discussions have you had specifically with local authorities about banning single-use plastic milk bottles in schools across Wales?

Ddirprwy Weinidog, yn gynharach yr wythnos hon, cyfarfûm â disgyblion o Ysgol yr Eglwys yng Nghymru Aeddan Sant yng Nghas-wis ger Hwlffordd yn fy etholaeth, sydd wedi cychwyn deiseb i wahardd poteli llaeth plastig untro mewn ysgolion ledled Cymru. Rwy'n siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno â mi ei bod yn wych gweld plant a phobl ifanc yn ymgysylltu â'n proses ddeisebau ac yn cymryd camau ar rai o'n problemau mwyaf. O dan yr amgylchiadau, pa gefnogaeth y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ei chynnig i ddisgyblion Ysgol yr Eglwys yng Nghymru Aeddan Sant, a pha drafodaethau penodol a gawsoch gydag awdurdodau lleol ynghylch gwahardd poteli llaeth plastig untro mewn ysgolion ledled Cymru?

Thank you. You're obviously referring to that role that young people are playing, particularly in schools, in driving this change, and the power of pester power as well because I think there's no loyalty to the grown-ups or to the parents when we're not doing it probably. I remember in one school, we were talking about what you recycled and why, and where it went, and one little girl put her hand up and said, 'My mummy doesn't do that.' So, I think we need to make sure that we support them in that.

You won't be surprised to hear that other schools have been in touch with the same concerns around the plastic milk bottles and around plastic straws. I know there have been some pilots across some schools in local authority areas to see what they can do to drive that forward. And I'm keen, if you want to ask the school to write to me about what they're doing, I'd be very happy to engage with them.

And also, as part of when we announced the 'Beyond Recycling' consultation, we also announced a new £6.5 million circular economy fund. It's not the same one as before, even though it sounds the same, it's actually for local authorities and other public bodies, so schools and other organisations can be part of that, if they want to. Because what we've done before, we've seen young people, actually, who are driving campaigns for change, but, actually, there's not the infrastructure there within where they are to actually drive that practical change and resolutions. So, to actually look at ways we can best enable and empower that. But if you want to write to me on behalf of the school, or invite the children to write to me, then I'll be more than happy to engage with them.

Diolch. Rydych yn amlwg yn cyfeirio at y rôl y mae pobl ifanc yn ei chwarae, yn enwedig mewn ysgolion, yn sbarduno'r newid hwn, a grym plagio, gan na chredaf fod teyrngarwch i oedolion nac i rieni, mae'n debyg, pan nad ydynt yn gwneud hyn. Rwy'n cofio mewn un ysgol, roeddem yn sôn am yr hyn rydych yn ei ailgylchu a pham, ac i ble mae'n mynd, a rhoddodd un ferch fach ei llaw i fyny a dweud, 'Nid yw fy mam yn gwneud hynny.' Felly, credaf fod angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn eu cefnogi yn hynny o beth.

Ni fyddwch yn synnu clywed bod ysgolion eraill wedi bod mewn cysylltiad gan fynegi'r un pryderon ynghylch y poteli llaeth plastig a gwellt plastig. Gwn fod rhai cynlluniau peilot wedi'u cynnal mewn ysgolion mewn rhai ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol i weld beth y gallant ei wneud i yrru hynny yn ei flaen. Ac rwy'n awyddus, os hoffech ofyn i'r ysgol ysgrifennu ataf am yr hyn y maent yn ei wneud, buaswn yn fwy na pharod i ymgysylltu â hwy.

A hefyd, fel rhan o'r hyn a wnaethom wrth gyhoeddi'r ymgynghoriad 'Mwy Nag Ailgylchu', gwnaethom hefyd gyhoeddi cronfa economi gylchol newydd gwerth £6.5 miliwn. Mae'n wahanol i'r un flaenorol, er ei bod yn swnio'r un peth, mae hi mewn gwirionedd ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol a chyrff cyhoeddus eraill, felly gall ysgolion a sefydliadau eraill fod yn rhan o hynny os ydynt yn dymuno. Oherwydd yr hyn a wnaethom o'r blaen oedd gweld pobl ifanc yn sbarduno ymgyrchoedd dros newid, ond mewn gwirionedd, nid yw'r seilwaith yno lle maent hwy i sbarduno'r newid a'r penderfyniadau ymarferol hynny. Felly, edrych mewn gwirionedd ar y ffyrdd gorau y gallwn alluogi a grymuso hynny. Ond os hoffech ysgrifennu ataf ar ran yr ysgol, neu wahodd y plant i ysgrifennu ataf, rwy'n fwy na pharod i ymgysylltu â hwy.

Diolch i'r Dirprwy Weinidog a'r Gweinidog am yr atebion a'r sesiwn gwestiynau yna. Ac felly—[Torri ar draws.]

Thank you, Deputy Minister and Minister for replying to those questions. So—[Interruption.]

Yes. Point of order, Mandy Jones.

Iawn. Pwynt o drefn, Mandy Jones.

Thank you. I did try to raise this with your office earlier, so thank you for taking this for me.

Diolch. Fe geisiais godi hyn gyda'ch swyddfa yn gynharach, felly diolch am dderbyn y pwynt hwn gennyf.

Your office informed my office of an intention to raise a point of order a few minutes before I left to come down to the Chamber. I haven't had the opportunity to review that as yet, and I intend to tell you, once you have raised your point of order here very quickly, then, that I will review it subsequently to this. I'm sitting here with my mobile phone, I'm unable to actually look at any proceedings of last week's events.

Cafodd fy swyddfa wybod gan eich swyddfa chi am fwriad i godi pwynt o drefn ychydig funudau cyn i mi adael i ddod i lawr i'r Siambr. Nid wyf wedi cael cyfle i'w adolygu eto, ac rwy’n bwriadu dweud wrthych, ar ôl i chi godi eich pwynt o drefn yma yn gyflym iawn, y byddaf yn ei adolygu wedyn. Rwy'n eistedd yma gyda fy ffôn symudol, ni allaf edrych ar drafodion digwyddiadau'r wythnos diwethaf.

Okay, but thank you for taking this, Llywydd.

Could you please make a ruling on Standing Orders 13.94 and 13.95 on whether Alun Davies's behaviour last week in the Chamber was discourteous and distracted from the dignity of this place? Alun shouted across the Chamber, 'You are a racist'. Now, on the Record of Proceedings, this comment actually follows my name being called by you, and I wasn't even in that conversation at that time. This is unacceptable to me. Members here should be able to make their point without being subjected to bullying and name calling, and I would like this comment, please, of Alun's to be removed from the Record and I would like to know where we all stand in terms of this kind of name calling.

Iawn, ond diolch am dderbyn hyn, Lywydd.

A allech wneud dyfarniad ar Reolau Sefydlog 13.94 a 13.95 ynglŷn ag a oedd ymddygiad Alun Davies yr wythnos diwethaf yn y Siambr yn anghwrtais ac yn amharu ar urddas y lle hwn? Gwaeddodd Alun ar draws y Siambr, 'Rydych chi'n hiliol'. Nawr, yng Nghofnod y Trafodion, mae'r sylw hwn yn dilyn fy enw'n cael ei alw gennych chi, ac nid oeddwn yn rhan o'r sgwrs honno hyd yn oed ar y pryd. Mae hyn yn annerbyniol i mi. Dylai'r Aelodau yma allu gwneud eu pwynt heb fod yn destun bwlio a galw enwau, ac os gwelwch yn dda, hoffwn i sylw Alun gael ei dynnu o'r Cofnod a hoffwn wybod beth yw'r sefyllfa o ran y math hwn o alw enwau.


Thank you for the point of order, and yes, I'll make a ruling on it once I've reviewed the Record of Proceedings in last week's proceedings. So, if you allow me to do that—. As I said earlier, I'm not able to review it on my mobile phone in the Chamber, even though I do make quite a bit of use, sometimes, as some of you who send me texts know, of my mobile phone, but not to review last week's proceedings. So, I will consider that at a later stage.

Diolch am y pwynt o drefn, a gwnaf, fe wnaf ddyfarniad arno ar ôl i mi adolygu Cofnod y Trafodion ar gyfer trafodion yr wythnos diwethaf. Felly, os gwnewch chi ganiatáu i mi wneud hynny—. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, ni allaf ei adolygu ar fy ffôn symudol yn y Siambr, er fy mod yn defnyddio cryn dipyn ar fy ffôn symudol weithiau, fel y gŵyr rhai ohonoch sy'n anfon negeseuon testun i mi, ond nid i adolygu trafodion yr wythnos diwethaf. Felly, byddaf yn ystyried hynny maes o law.

3. Cwestiynau Amserol
3. Topical Questions

Topical questions.

Cwestiynau amserol.

Mae'r cwestiwn amserol cyntaf, felly, yn cael ei ofyn i'r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ac mae'r cwestiwn gan Caroline Jones.

The first topical question is to be asked to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the question is from Caroline Jones.

Amddiffyn y Cyhoedd rhag Coronafeirws
Protecting the Public from Coronavirus

1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu'r camau y mae Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru a GIG Cymru yn eu cymryd i amddiffyn y cyhoedd rhag coronafeirws? 387

1. Will the Minister outline the steps being taken by Public Health Wales and NHS Wales to protect the public from Coronavirus? 387

Yes. NHS Wales has plans in place to protect the health of the public. Specific guidance on the identification, isolation and testing for this virus has been communicated to all of our front-line staff. UK health Ministers, chief medical officers and public health agencies across the four nations are co-ordinating action together.

Gwnaf. Mae gan GIG Cymru gynlluniau ar waith i amddiffyn iechyd y cyhoedd. Mae canllawiau penodol ar adnabod, ynysu a chynnal profion ar y firws hwn wedi eu darparu i'n holl staff rheng flaen. Mae Gweinidogion iechyd y DU, prif swyddogion meddygol ac asiantaethau iechyd cyhoeddus o'r pedair gwlad yn cydgysylltu camau gweithredu gyda'i gilydd.

Thank you, Minister. The threat we face from this new strain of coronavirus is of grave concern, and I am grateful that you have outlined the action your Government are taking to keep us safe. It is concerning that upwards of 5 million people are believed to have left Wuhan before the quarantine was put in place. Sadly, in the following weeks, we have seen this coronavirus outbreak spread, and the director of Public Health England has said that it is likely this deadly virus is already in the UK. We have to do all that we can to limit its impact on our already overstretched NHS. Minister, although we have no direct flights from China to Cardiff, both KLM and Qatar airlines offer flights. What assurances have you from the Dutch and Qatari Governments that they will screen all transit passengers?

Unfortunately, this coronavirus has a long incubation period, so the real scale of the threat will become more apparent in the coming weeks. Minister, will you commit to giving this Chamber and, by extension, the wider public, regular oral updates as the situation develops? Thank you.

Diolch, Weinidog. Mae'r bygythiad sy'n ein hwynebu yn sgil y math newydd hwn o coronafirws yn achos cryn bryder, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar eich bod wedi amlinellu'r camau y mae eich Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd i'n cadw'n ddiogel. Mae'n achos pryder y credir bod dros 5 miliwn o bobl wedi gadael Wuhan cyn i'r cwarantin gael ei roi ar waith. Yn anffodus, yn ystod yr wythnosau canlynol, rydym wedi gweld yr achos hwn o coronafirws yn lledaenu, ac mae cyfarwyddwr Iechyd Cyhoeddus Lloegr wedi dweud ei bod yn debygol fod y firws angheuol hwn eisoes wedi cyrraedd y DU. Mae'n rhaid inni wneud popeth a allwn i gyfyngu ar ei effaith ar ein GIG sydd eisoes o dan bwysau. Weinidog, er nad oes gennym unrhyw hediadau uniongyrchol o Tsieina i Gaerdydd, mae cwmnïau hedfan KLM a Qatar yn cynnig hediadau. Pa sicrwydd a gawsoch gan Lywodraethau'r Iseldiroedd a Qatar y byddant yn sgrinio'r holl deithwyr sy'n teithio ymlaen?

Yn anffodus, mae gan y coronafirws hwn gyfnod magu hir, felly bydd gwir raddfa'r bygythiad yn dod yn fwy amlwg dros yr wythnosau nesaf. Weinidog, a wnewch chi ymrwymo i roi'r newyddion diweddaraf ar lafar yn rheolaidd i'r Siambr, a thrwy hynny, i'r cyhoedd yn ehangach wrth i'r sefyllfa ddatblygu? Diolch.

On the last point, I'm happy to confirm that, of course, regular updates will be provided, where necessary by me, but there'll be regular updates through the chief medical officer's department about steps that are being taken.

I think, in terms of people entering the United Kingdom, those are matters that are outside the control of this Government. You will have seen that there are direct flights that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office are arranging for British nationals to come back into London and that those people will be—a dreadful, old-fashioned word—quarantined; there'll be a period of them being held to see if they are symptomatic. And we're looking to identify with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office how many Welsh nationals are going to be on that flight.

On the broader points about ports of entry, again, the actions have been agreed, through previous Cabinet Office Briefing Room engagement that has been taken by the UK Government, on ports of entry.

But I just want to deal with your first point, and that is about the coronavirus in the first place. There's obviously understandable concern. However, I think we should all take care in how we describe this particular virus; it is less severe than the previous outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome, and there were lots of concerns about the potential mortality for that. That's our current understanding. The risk to the UK is currently assessed as low. But the steps that are being taken are anticipatory to try to provide reassurance for our staff, but also for the wider public. I certainly don't want to add to the impression that a more significant health risk is on its way than is likely.

It's worth reflecting, for example, that we know that the flu makes people severely unwell and kills people every year, and yet, we still can't persuade people who are in a category where they can receive a free NHS vaccine, to take that up in the numbers we'd want them to. So, let's have some perspective on it. We'll be measured, we certainly won't be complacent, and the engagement between health Ministers across the four UK Governments will continue in the way that you would all expect it to, just as the regular contact between our four chief medical officers will continue as well.

Ar y pwynt olaf, rwy'n fwy na pharod i gadarnhau, wrth gwrs, y bydd diweddariadau rheolaidd yn cael eu darparu, gennyf fi pan fo angen, ond darperir diweddariadau rheolaidd drwy adran y prif swyddog meddygol ynglŷn â'r camau a gymerir.

O ran pobl yn dod i mewn i'r Deyrnas Unedig, credaf fod y rheini'n faterion sydd y tu hwnt i reolaeth y Llywodraeth hon. Fe fyddwch wedi gweld bod y Swyddfa Dramor a Chymanwlad yn trefnu hediadau uniongyrchol fel y gall gwladolion Prydain ddychwelyd i Lundain ac y bydd y bobl hynny—gair ofnadwy, hen-ffasiwn—yn cael eu rhoi mewn cwarantin; byddant yn cael eu cadw am gyfnod i weld a ydynt yn dangos symptomau. Ac rydym yn ceisio nodi gyda'r Swyddfa Dramor a Chymanwlad faint o wladolion Cymru a fydd ar yr hediad hwnnw.

O ran y pwyntiau ehangach ynghylch pyrth mynediad, unwaith eto, cytunwyd ar y camau gweithredu, drwy ymgysylltiad blaenorol Ystafell Friffio Swyddfa'r Cabinet Llywodraeth y DU ar byrth mynediad.

Ond hoffwn drafod eich pwynt cyntaf, sy'n ymwneud â'r coronafirws yn y lle cyntaf. Yn amlwg, ceir pryderon dealladwy. Fodd bynnag, credaf y dylai pob un ohonom fod yn ofalus wrth ddisgrifio'r firws penodol hwn; mae'n llai difrifol na'r achosion blaenorol o syndrom anadlu acíwt difrifol, ac roedd llawer o bryderon ynghylch y marwolaethau posibl yn sgil hwnnw. Dyna ein dealltwriaeth ar hyn o bryd. Ar hyn o bryd, asesir bod y risg i'r DU yn isel. Ond mae'r camau sy'n cael eu cymryd yn gamau rhagflaenorol i geisio rhoi sicrwydd i'n staff, ond hefyd i'r cyhoedd yn ehangach. Yn sicr, nid wyf am ychwanegu at yr argraff fod perygl mwy sylweddol i iechyd ar ei ffordd na'r hyn sy'n debygol.

Er y gwyddom fod y ffliw'n gwneud pobl yn ddifrifol wael ac yn lladd pobl bob blwyddyn, serch hynny mae'n werth ystyried, er enghraifft, ein bod yn dal i fethu perswadio pobl sydd mewn categori lle gallant gael brechlyn am ddim gan y GIG i wneud hynny yn y niferoedd y byddem yn dymuno'u gweld. Felly, gadewch i ni gael rhywfaint o bersbectif ar y mater. Fe fyddwn yn bwyllog, yn sicr ni fyddwn yn hunanfodlon, a bydd yr ymgysylltu rhwng Gweinidogion iechyd pedair Llywodraeth y DU yn parhau yn y ffordd y byddai pob un ohonoch yn ei disgwyl, yn union fel y bydd y cyswllt rheolaidd rhwng ein pedwar prif swyddog meddygol yn parhau hefyd.

Thank you very much indeed, Minister. To be honest, you've answered most of the questions I was going to ask. I met the Secretary of State last week and he was very clear that there was big joint working going on and that it was going very well. My only question would be: does Wales have any emergency treatment centre planning in place, in case we get to a situation where this does develop further? And I would join you in urging people not to overly panic about this because we do not want to start a scare.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Weinidog. A dweud y gwir, rydych wedi ateb y rhan fwyaf o'r cwestiynau roeddwn am eu gofyn. Cyfarfûm â'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yr wythnos diwethaf a dywedodd yn glir iawn fod cryn dipyn o waith ar y cyd yn mynd rhagddo a'i fod yn mynd yn dda iawn. Fy unig gwestiwn fyddai: a oes gan Gymru unrhyw gynlluniau ar waith ar gyfer canolfan driniaeth frys, rhag ofn i ni gyrraedd sefyllfa lle mae hyn yn datblygu ymhellach? A buaswn yn ymuno â chi i annog pobl i beidio â chynhyrfu gormod am hyn gan nad ydym am godi bwganod.


Yes, in terms of most of the treatment, that's part of a network of work across the UK, both within Wales and outside, where people would be treated should they test positive. It's also worth pointing out that every single person tested in the United Kingdom to date has tested negative. So, we don't have a confirmed case anywhere within the United Kingdom, but I think in terms of the assurance, yes, we have got arrangements in place for treatment should there be a positive test regardless of where that person is within the UK, and Wales is absolutely part of those arrangements. In fact, that's part of the conversation that our chief medical officer has had and part of the conversation that UK Ministers wanted to be assured about in the last COBRA call that I took part in last week.

Ie, o ran y rhan fwyaf o'r driniaeth, mae hynny'n rhan o rwydwaith o waith ledled y DU, yng Nghymru a thu hwnt, lle byddai pobl yn cael eu trin pe baent yn cael canlyniad positif. Mae'n werth nodi hefyd fod pob unigolyn a brofwyd yn y Deyrnas Unedig hyd yma wedi cael canlyniad negyddol. Felly, nid oes gennym achos wedi'i gadarnhau yn unman yn y Deyrnas Unedig, ond o ran y sicrwydd, oes, mae gennym drefniadau ar waith ar gyfer triniaeth pe baem yn gweld canlyniad positif, waeth ble fyddai'r unigolyn yn y DU, ac mae Cymru'n sicr yn rhan o'r trefniadau hynny. Mewn gwirionedd, mae hynny'n rhan o'r sgwrs a gafodd ein prif swyddog meddygol ac yn rhan o'r sgwrs roedd Gweinidogion y DU am gael sicrwydd yn ei chylch yn yr alwad COBRA ddiwethaf y cymerais ran ynddi yr wythnos diwethaf.

Dwi’n croesawu eich apêl ar i bawb gael rhywfaint o bersbectif ynglŷn â’r mater yma. Wrth gwrs bod eisiau ei gymryd o ddifri, ond hefyd fod yn realistig ynglŷn â lefel y perygl. Mi wnaf ofyn hyn: ydy hi’n amser da rŵan i atgoffa pobl ac o bosib i roi rhywfaint o adnoddau i mewn i agweddau cyffredinol ar lendid personol a rheolaeth infections ac ati? A hynny nid yn unig mewn ysbytai ond mewn sefydliadau eraill, ac nid dim ond fel paratoad ar gyfer os ydy coronavirus yn dod yma, ond yn gyffredinol mae o’n arfer da. Wedi’r cyfan, mae’r annwyd cyffredin yn cael ei ledaenu mewn ffordd debyg ac yn gallu arwain at gymhlethdodau difrifol ar rai adegau.

Mae yna gysylltiad rhwng Wuhan a Chymru hefyd, wrth gwrs, ers rhyw 150 o flynyddoedd ers i’r cennad Griffith John fynd i Wuhan a sefydlu'r ysbyty yno—yr Wuhan Union Hospital—sy’n un o ysbytai mwyaf Tsieina, efo 5,000 o welyau yn trin dros 3 miliwn o bobl yn flynyddol. Mae hynny’n golygu wrth gwrs fod yna draffig i Abertawe, dinas lle'r oedd Griffith John yn hanu ohono fo. Mae yna draffig o Tsieina i’r fan honno oherwydd y cysylltiad uniongyrchol efo Wuhan. Felly, dwi yn croesawu’r hyn rydych chi’n ei ddweud ynglŷn â’r angen i fod yn gweithio ar draws Prydain, i fod â chamau priodol mewn lle mewn meysydd awyr.

O ran porthladdoedd, cwestiwn sydd wedi’i godi efo fi gan y BMA—fe wnaf i ei basio fo ymlaen atoch chi—maen nhw’n gofyn tybed a oes yna oblygiadau sydd angen eu hystyried oherwydd ein hymadawiad ni o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd y gallai fod yna newidiadau i ddisgwyliadau o ran rheolaeth ffiniau, a newidiadau o bosib yn y disgwyliadau ar Lywodraeth Cymru dan y drefn newydd wrth adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, o ran sicrhau gwarchodaeth iechyd i’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru. Ydy hynny’n rhywbeth y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi rhoi ystyriaeth iddo fo?

Dwi’n meddwl bod hynny’n cwblhau’r cwestiynau am rŵan ond, fel dwi’n dweud, mae’n bwysig cael persbectif wrth baratoi, wrth gwrs, yn y cefndir rhag ofn i bethau gamu fyny yn fwy difrifol nag yr ydyn ni’n meddwl y gwnân nhw ar hyn o bryd.

I do welcome your appeal for everyone to have some perspective on this issue. Of course we need to take it seriously, but we also need to be realistic as to the level of the risk. I will ask this: is it a good time now to remind people and perhaps provide some resource into general aspects of personal hygiene and infection control? And not only in hospitals, but also in other institutions, and not just as preparation in case coronavirus affects us, but in general it's good practice. After all, the common cold is transferred in a similar manner and can lead to grave complications on occasion.

There is a link between Wuhan and Wales as well, of course. It's around 150 years since the missionary Griffith John went to Wuhan and established the Wuhan Union Hospital there, which is one of the largest in China, with 5,000 beds treating over 3 million people annually. And that does mean, of course, that there is traffic to Swansea, the city where Griffith John originated from. So, there is traffic from China to Swansea because of that direct link to Wuhan. Therefore, I do welcome what you've said about the need to work across Britain in order to put the appropriate steps in place in our airports.

In terms of our ports, the question that's been raised with me by the BMA—and I will pass it on to you—they are asking whether there may be some implications that need to be taken into account because of our exit from the EU, that there could be changes to expectations in terms of border control, and possible changes to what's expected of the Welsh Government under the new regime as we leave the European Union, in terms of ensuring that public health is safeguarded in Wales. Is that something that the Government has given any consideration to?

I think that completes my questions for the time being, but, as I say, it's important to keep this in perspective while also preparing in the background, of course, in case things do become more serious than we think they will currently.

Thank you for the comments and questions. The ability to communicate between European countries on public health matters is something that was talked about during the last three years or so and we'll still need to work through how we'll maintain the best possible public protection system. There are challenges in place around that.

I think that today, though, and for the current position, it is a matter of fact that we're still able to have that co-operation and information sharing in a way that benefits us. I think the point about the fact that there is some traffic between Wales and Wuhan, that’s acknowledged. In fact, we've seen some media reports of Welsh citizens who actually are there and are looking to be taken out on the flight that I previously mentioned.

But the advice that goes across not just Wales, but the UK, is that anyone who has returned from Wuhan in the last 14 days should stay indoors and avoid contact with other people, as you would with other flu viruses; to contact NHS Direct or 111 Wales, if available in your area—111 Wales is available in Hywel Dda, Powys, Aneurin Bevan and Swansea Bay—to inform them of your recent travel; and to please follow that advice even if you don’t currently have symptoms, and, again, if anyone does develop a fever, difficulty breathing or a cough, to continue to follow that advice and not to leave their home until they have had advice to do so by a clinician.

So, we're taking a properly precautionary approach. That shows we are taking it seriously, but not to want to move into a panic that isn't warranted by the position as it is, and to give that assurance that there will be information provided. In fact, the chief medical officer for England is regularly publishing each day information on behalf of all four chief medical officers on the current position. I think that it's important that the Governments of the UK are being as open as possible about the current position, so that people don't worry in a vacuum, which often leads to an unfortunate reaction from the public.

Diolch am y sylwadau a'r cwestiynau. Mae'r gallu i gyfathrebu rhwng gwledydd Ewropeaidd ar faterion iechyd cyhoeddus yn rhywbeth y soniwyd amdano yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf a bydd angen i ni weithio o hyd i ganfod sut y byddwn yn cynnal y system orau bosibl ar gyfer amddiffyn y cyhoedd. Mae heriau i'w cael mewn perthynas â hynny.

Heddiw, fodd bynnag, ac ar gyfer y sefyllfa bresennol, mae'n ffaith ein bod yn dal i allu cydweithredu a rhannu gwybodaeth mewn ffordd sydd o fudd i ni. Credaf fod y pwynt ynglŷn â'r ffaith bod rhywfaint o draffig rhwng Cymru a Wuhan wedi’i gydnabod. Mewn gwirionedd, gwelsom adroddiadau yn y cyfryngau am ddinasyddion o Gymru sydd allan yno ac sy'n awyddus i gael lle ar yr awyren y soniais amdani.

Ond y cyngor sy'n cael ei roi nid yn unig ledled Cymru, ond ledled y DU, yw y dylai unrhyw un sydd wedi dychwelyd o Wuhan yn y 14 diwrnod diwethaf aros dan do ac osgoi dod i gysylltiad â phobl eraill, fel y byddech yn ei wneud gyda firysau ffliw eraill; i gysylltu â Galw Iechyd Cymru neu 111 Cymru, os yw ar gael yn eich ardal chi—mae 111 Cymru ar gael ym myrddau iechyd Hywel Dda, Powys, Aneurin Bevan a Bae Abertawe—i roi gwybod iddynt am eich taith ddiweddar; ac i ddilyn y cyngor hwnnw hyd yn oed os nad oes gennych symptomau ar hyn o bryd, ac unwaith eto, os oes unrhyw un yn datblygu twymyn, trafferth anadlu neu beswch, i barhau i ddilyn y cyngor hwnnw a pheidio â gadael eu cartref tan eu bod wedi cael cyngor i wneud hynny gan glinigydd.

Felly, rydym yn mabwysiadu ymagwedd briodol o ragofalus. Mae hynny'n dangos ein bod o ddifrif ynglŷn â'r mater, ond nad ydym am fynd i banig nad yw'r sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd yn ei gyfiawnhau, a rhoi'r sicrwydd y bydd gwybodaeth yn cael ei darparu. Mewn gwirionedd, mae prif swyddog meddygol Lloegr yn cyhoeddi gwybodaeth bob dydd yn rheolaidd ar ran pob un o'r pedwar prif swyddog meddygol ar y sefyllfa bresennol. Credaf ei bod yn bwysig fod Llywodraethau'r DU mor agored â phosibl ynghylch y sefyllfa bresennol, fel nad yw pobl yn poeni mewn gwactod, sy'n aml yn arwain at ymateb anffodus gan y cyhoedd.


I am very concerned, as are some of my constituents, about the coronavirus. The death toll has climbed to 106, and the number of infections is now more than 4,500, and the virus has spread across China and to at least 16 countries. Now, I understand the feeling about no panic, but the one thing that I need to be sure of is that we have got contingency plans in place. I know that during the last swine flu concerns and that epidemic, there were some concerns where the Welsh Government had to very much rely on heavy support from the UK Government. In fact, I wouldn't downplay, really, the risk of the SARS virus, where I personally know of people who died with that virus and who nearly died with that virus. So, it's pretty serious stuff that we are actually discussing here today.

This is almost a global emergency. There are 47 confirmed cases outside China, three of these being in France. Last week, when I became very concerned midweek, I submitted a written Assembly question to you—and I would like to thank Caroline Jones for bringing this up today because, as an institution, we should be discussing and debating this—asking what steps the Welsh Government is taking in response to the spread of coronavirus. I haven't received a response yet. I know that Rhun has mentioned about airports. I know that the primary and secondary care settings have been mentioned—

Rwy'n bryderus iawn, fel rhai o fy etholwyr, am y coronafirws. Mae'r nifer o farwolaethau wedi codi i 106, ac mae nifer yr heintiau bellach yn fwy na 4,500, ac mae'r firws wedi lledu ar draws Tsieina ac i o leiaf 16 gwlad. Nawr, rwy'n deall y teimlad ynglŷn â pheidio â mynd i panig, ond yr un peth sy'n rhaid i mi fod yn sicr ohono yw bod gennym gynlluniau wrth gefn yn eu lle. Yn ystod y pryderon diwethaf ynghylch ffliw moch a'r epidemig hwnnw, gwn fod yna rai pryderon lle bu'n rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru ddibynnu'n fawr ar gefnogaeth gan Lywodraeth y DU. Mewn gwirionedd, ni fuaswn yn bychanu risg y firws SARS, lle gwn yn bersonol am bobl a fu farw oherwydd y firws hwnnw ac a fu bron â marw oherwydd y firws hwnnw. Felly, rydym yn trafod pethau difrifol yma heddiw.

Mae hwn bron â bod yn argyfwng byd-eang. Mae 47 o achosion wedi'u cadarnhau y tu allan i Tsieina, gyda thri o'r rhain yn Ffrainc. Yr wythnos diwethaf, pan ddechreuais bryderu'n fawr yn nghanol yr wythnos, cyflwynais gwestiwn ysgrifenedig y Cynulliad i chi—a hoffwn ddiolch i Caroline Jones am godi hyn heddiw, oherwydd fel sefydliad, dylem fod yn dadlau ac yn trafod hyn—yn gofyn pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd mewn ymateb i ymlediad y coronafirws. Nid wyf wedi derbyn ymateb eto. Gwn fod Rhun wedi sôn am feysydd awyr. Gwn fod y lleoliadau gofal sylfaenol ac eilaidd wedi cael eu crybwyll—

You don't need to provide a précis of what's been asked already, Janet Finch-Saunders. Please just ask your questions.

Nid oes angen i chi ddarparu crynodeb o'r hyn a ofynnwyd eisoes, Janet Finch-Saunders. Gofynnwch eich cwestiynau.

My concerns, Minister, are that the virus seems to be spreading like a normal flu during its incubation period and before any symptoms appear. So, how do you think that we can help medical professionals and the public to become aware of this at the earliest symptoms? If and when a first case in the UK is confirmed, it will be announced as soon as possible by the chief medical officer of the affected country, and that will be followed by a statement from England's chief medical officer. So, I would like to hear again that you personally are actually in very frequent dialogue with the UK Government on this. 

Finally, you might be aware that the Chinese new year event in Swansea was cancelled over coronavirus fears. So, will you join with me in extending a message of support to the people of China and the Chinese people in Wales, and China, globally, on behalf of the National Assembly for Wales, if not the Welsh Government?

Fy mhryderon, Weinidog, yw ei bod yn ymddangos bod y firws yn lledu fel ffliw arferol yn ystod ei gyfnod magu a chyn i unrhyw symptomau ymddangos. Felly, sut y credwch y gallwn helpu gweithwyr meddygol proffesiynol a'r cyhoedd i ddod yn ymwybodol o hyn pan geir y symptomau cynharaf? Os a phan fydd yr achos cyntaf yn y DU yn cael ei gadarnhau, bydd prif swyddog meddygol y wlad yr effeithir arni yn cyhoeddi hynny cyn gynted â phosibl, a bydd datganiad gan brif swyddog meddygol Lloegr yn dilyn hynny. Felly, hoffwn glywed eto eich bod chi'n bersonol y