Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on the agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Heledd Fychan.

Llywydd, I meet regularly with all Cabinet colleagues individually and collectively during the draft budget-setting process. I attended the finance sub-group with the Cabinet Secretary on 22 October, to hear from local authorities directly on their pressures and priorities. And I met again with council leaders and chief officers on Monday.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It's good to know that you do meet so regularly, and, clearly, I'm sure that local authority leaders will have emphasised to you the fact that they are hugely concerned about their ability to provide social care services specifically because of the financial challenges that they face. In my region, and specifically in Rhondda Cynon Taf, the council is consulting on the closure of two care homes in order to make savings at the moment: Cae Glas and Ferndale House. This is despite the fact that there are residents in beds in local hospitals who are ready to be released but are awaiting a place in a care home, sometimes for weeks.

How, then, are you working with the relevant Cabinet Secretaries to ensure that no hasty decisions are made, such as the closure of care homes, until the funding picture is clearer for next year? And isn't it important, in terms of the funding position of the health service, that these homes remain open so that we're not putting more pressure on other budgets?

Well, Llywydd, I thank Heledd Fychan for that supplementary question. You are right—local council leaders tell me every time I meet them about the pressures they're facing in the area of social care, but across their responsibilities as well. 

Of course, the relationship between local authorities and health boards is a very important one and we know that there are people in hospitals now who are well enough to return home or to receive care outside of a hospital setting. I'm not sure if it's true to say that it's just an issue of funding when local councils are moving to close some residential homes. As I understand it, in RCT, there are empty beds now within their care homes. So, on the one hand, funding is important and that's what I do discuss with them, but also the demand for services for people in the community is changing and that's what local authorities are facing as well.

I thank my colleague for raising this important issue. Cabinet Secretary, all the talk has been about more money for the NHS in order to tackle waiting times. In fact, the main reason Wales is getting so much extra funding is due to the money that the UK Government is spending to tackle NHS waiting times in England. However, pumping billions extra into health is not the answer to tackling waiting times. We need to direct spending into social care, and that means directing funds to local authorities. Cabinet Secretary, how will the Welsh Government ensure that social care is properly funded in order to eliminate delayed transfers of care, which you mentioned earlier?

Well, Llywydd, of course, I agree with the Member that investment in social care is part of a solution to the pressures that the system in the round experiences. From the point of view of the individual, it really doesn't matter whether the money is being spent in the health service or in social care, provided that they get the service that is the one that they themselves need.

I think there is a wider point, though, than the one that Altaf Hussein has made this afternoon, which is that, historically, in all public services, we focus on supply—we supply more services, we create more of this, we provide more of that—whereas, in fact, we need to look at demand in services as well. Why do people present themselves for care in the NHS, particularly when the conditions that they present with are conditions avoidable if different choices are made and different sources of help are available to people earlier in the progression of the difficulty that eventually means you need a secondary care service? So, it's rebalancing the way our public services not only are funded, but in the way they approach the work that they do so that there is more emphasis on helping to deal with demand, rather than simply dealing with the consequences of demand once that demand has crystallised.

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, we're all too aware that years of austerity have had a devastating impact on public services, and we've spoken before in this place that it's going to take more than last month's budget to finally turn that around. But we know too, as we've heard already this afternoon, that our local authorities face an immediate catalogue of challenges, and challenges that are felt most acutely in my corner of the country, whether that's in social care, the impact of legislation, or those bread-and-butter issues such as road repairs. So, felly, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, can I ask, in the context of the current climate, what consideration has and could be given to any shorter term funding solutions, whether that's around revenue and capital, or what scope is there to do things, do anything, differently—one of the things that's been suggested to me is around looking at reserves—but a way in which we can perhaps bridge that gap to, hopefully, a brighter financial future?

I thank the Member for that question. She's right about the pressures that local authorities face, but, 14 years into an era of resource constraint, public services of all sorts are facing those types of challenges. My aim in the budget next year is to assist our local authorities to move back from the brink of the worst of the challenges that they are facing and to allow them a pathway then beyond that into days when we hope they will have the resources they need to match the needs of their local populations. In the short run, I am in discussions of course with Cabinet colleagues about this year's budget. There is an increase in the resources available to the Welsh Government in the current year. And in the very short run, there are actions that we hope to be able to take to mitigate some of the pressures that our public services face. I am very anxious, in the spirit of the previous question, to encourage Cabinet colleagues and our public services to use short-term investments as a pathway to longer term sustainability. And there are ways in which capital expenditure, particularly, can be deployed to make the revenue resources that an authority has to be used more effectively and more efficiently. And it is those sorts of short-term steps that we are focusing on as part of that longer pathway into a time when our public services have the investments that they have been starved of for so long.

I thank the leader of the opposition for that question. Llywydd, a set of collaborative discussions took place with UK Ministers, focusing on Welsh priorities, ahead of the UK budget. These will continue as we head into the second phase of the UK spending review, which is due to conclude in the spring.

Thank you, finance Minister. It's a bit of a groundhog day standing here asking you questions. Obviously, one of the measures that came out of the UK Government budget was the increase in national insurance contributions to employers. That, potentially, has a devastating impact on the ability of companies to employ. A company employing someone on the medium wage would end up paying an additional £900 in national insurance, and, on the minimum wage, it would be £770. You are formulating the Welsh Government budget at the moment, finance Secretary. I wouldn't ask you to disclose what's in that budget, because you wouldn't tell me. But is there an ability for you, as finance Minister, to look at the ability of the resource that is available to the Welsh Government to reinstate the business rate relief at the full value that was prior to last year's Welsh Government budget of 75 per cent to Welsh businesses, because that would be a very useful tool in allowing money to be retained within those businesses and to offset the increased costs that those businesses face in employing people, going forward?

Llywydd, I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for that. The UK Government has said that it will provide compensation to public services for the additional national insurance contributions that public service employers will incur. The definition they are using of a public sector worker is the one used by the last Government and set out in the Office for National Statistics classifications.

I will be discussing with colleagues in the UK Government the impact that the change has on those who fall outside that ambit. I don’t have any plans to restore the level of temporary rate relief to tourism, leisure and hospitality. That is now in its fifth year of a temporary relief. It’s clear to me from the UK budget that that relief will not be repeated after the next financial year, because the Chancellor announced a new approach to multipliers for those sectors. We are on a glide path out of the help that has been there to help the sector recover from the COVID pandemic, and I think the glide path we have established in Wales is one that will help the sector to deal with the fact that that help is not going to be there in the long term and was never intended to be so.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.  

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, we all know that public sector services rely heavily on those private providers—as Heledd Fychan has already pointed out, care homes, but domiciliary care providers as well. As a result of that recent budget and those increased costs, certainly around national insurance and the thresholds relating to that, we are going to see those providers really struggling. And they are fundamental to the delivery of our public services and for the recovery journey that we need to be on in many ways.

Now, we did see Wales offer, or going to put in place, 100 per cent relief from non-domestic rates for childcare providers across Wales, which was extremely welcome. Bearing in mind some of the things that Heledd was saying earlier, I wondered what support could the wider care sector be given to enable them to make sure they have resilience, and that they can continue to support our public sector in the way we need them to. We see so many unmet hours of need in domiciliary care, and if we see a further erosion of businesses that are delivering that, that will not help the current system we’re in.

Well, Llywydd, I give the Member an assurance that the needs of the care sector are being actively discussed as part of the budget-setting process. I was in a conversation with the health Minister and the social care Minister only this morning on that. The budget available to the Welsh Government next year does mean that we will be in a position to reinvest in our public services. That's not to the degree we would like, but the care sector is very much in our thoughts as we do that. We have provided the sector with support ever since the start of this Senedd term to meet the costs of the real living wage for those employed in domiciliary care, and it will be our ambition to continue to do that.  

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and I think we’re all on the same page in wanting to see these services really protected, because this rises above politics because it’s so fundamental to the whole of society, and we need to make progress on that.

Andrew R.T. Davies touched on some of the areas I was going to focus on in my second question, and that is looking at trying to put some reassurance for the struggling sectors that are fearful that future NDR relief may not continue in Wales, where we know that it is going to continue in England. But we know that they are freezing their multiplier there as well. Now, we have the use of, or to put a multiplier in now in Wales—. We haven’t used that yet. Is there an opportunity now, do you think, Cabinet Secretary, that we can use that multiplier opportunity to lessen the impact on the smaller businesses in our communities?

Llywydd, the first thing to say is that half of small businesses in Wales pay no business rates at all. So, the multiplier has no impact on them because they don’t pay anything in business rates. Over 30 per cent more of businesses in Wales have relief from at least part of their business rates. Only 20 per cent of businesses in Wales pay full business rates.

I myself believe that the system is ripe for quite fundamental reform when you get to a position in which only one in five businesses are actually paying business rates as are set. I think it tells you that, over the years, the system has built in reliefs here, added help there, and is ripe for a more fundamental look at it.

We took new powers in the Bill that went through the Senedd earlier this year to be able to respond more flexibly on the multiplier front. Those powers do not become available in Wales until 1 April next year. So, the budget that will come in front of the Senedd on 10 December reflects the current powers that we have, but there will be new possibilities for us as a result of the Senedd’s decision from next year onwards.

Thank you for that answer. I know it’s frustrating when we talk about non-domestic rates often, but when I was with colleagues from the Federation of Small Businesses yesterday, they were stressing again the pressures that NDR businesses are facing. So, there’s a mismatch between the narrative and the experience that businesses face.

Moving on to my last point, which moves us into a different area a little, we know that local authorities are facing some £560 million-worth of funding pressures—we’ve heard this a lot—on children’s services, social care and education, but I think there’s another time bomb out there, and that’s our crumbling infrastructure here in Wales, be that our potholed roads or our worn-out bridges. And there are hundreds of bridges, thousands of bridges, that need massive money spent on them. As we move into winter, these pressures are only set to increase, especially with the adverse weather we’ve seen over recent years. That increases things like flooding, but also a lot of landslides and the like. We’ve seen many of those, and they hang around for years sometimes because councils can’t seem to grapple with them. Cabinet Secretary, how will the Welsh Government help to ensure there is sufficient resilience within local government to enable them to cope and keep our communities safe and connected?

I thank Peter Fox for that third question. I should just simply say that what he described as 'the narrative' on non-domestic rates was simply a statement of fact. Those are the facts of the matter. Half of businesses in Wales pay no business rates at all, and another 30 per cent of them have their bills reduced by the public, because it is the other council tax payers and other income tax payers who are providing that help to those businesses.

On infrastructure, though, he makes some important points. This is where the budget of 30 October does mark a real step-change for public services. Because he will remember that Jeremy Hunt, in his budget in March, gave us £1 million in capital investment, and on 30 October, the Chancellor provided £235 million. That does mean that we are in a different position going into next year, and with a spring budget that will give us a further three years of capital budgets, we will be in a different position again to marshal the investment that is needed to repair the damage that has been done by resource starvation over the previous decade.

I am keen to make sure that local authorities have their share in that new set of possibilities, and I’m prepared to work imaginatively with local authorities, as we have in the past, to think about how we might be able to use some of the opportunities they can create in order to go on investing in their roads, in the maintenance of schools, and the other backlogs that we know have built up while resource has been in such short supply.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, if I may return to some points that you made a little earlier in your response to Andrew R.T. Davies, just in terms of national insurance specifically, you mentioned the ONS definition, and that there was a possibility of using the same one as is currently being used, but there are very different figures in terms of which ONS definition is adopted, of course. The measure used by Stats Wales, which is the labour force survey, is far more favourable for Wales. Can I ask you, therefore, what definition you will be pressing for with the UK Government?

Well, the possibilities come to me because my intention is to be in London not next week, but the week after that, to have opportunities to have face-to-face meetings with Ministers in the Treasury. Of course, I'm there to provide information and evidence to them about the situation here in Wales—some of the points that we've heard already about the impact in the area of care, and so forth. So, that's why I'm going, just to be clear with the Treasury about things on the ground here, and through that, and through everything else that the Treasury will hear from people in England and Scotland as well, just for them to have the full information about the situation that we face in the public sector, but also with the agencies that we work with outside the public sector. 

Thank you. It will be very beneficial, and I hope that you can put that case forward, because you too, I'm sure, will have received a whole host of communications from third sector organisations who are extremely concerned about the situation. Last week, I mentioned Citizens Advice. Obviously, we've heard also from hospices, and Platfform have estimated an additional cost of £0.25 million; St John Ambulance, £50,000; Mirus, which is a care-sector organisation, an additional cost of £1.6 million. One council leader told me that it would cost £2.5 million for all the third sector organisations providing services for that council. So, what I'm asking is: in terms of the national insurance point particularly, what will you be asking for the ONS definition to be? As we accept that there are different definitions, what I would like to know specifically is: what will you be calling on the Chancellor to do to put this situation right?

Well, Llywydd, I'm not the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the decisions on national insurance contributions are not ones made by the Welsh Government. But, if I were the Chancellor, I'm sure I would be saying to you that the £1 billion extra that the Welsh Government has next year has to be paid for somehow, and that what she has done is to return the level of national insurance contributions by employers to where it was in 13 of the 14 years of the last Conservative Government. It's sometimes talked about as though she has done something absolutely extraordinary in increasing employer contributions, but she's put them back to where they were just 12 months earlier. Now, I will be making the case, not so much on a different definition, but I will be explaining to Treasury Ministers the impact that the rise in employer contribuitions will have here in Wales on those organisations that we rely on for public services, and beyond that as well. Because my job is to make sure that those who make decisions are as well informed as they can be of Welsh circumstances and Welsh needs, and that is what I will be doing. 

Thank you for that response. Clearly, the concern is that perhaps this decision by the Chancellor didn't take into account the broader implications of this increase, because clearly, it's in the face of cuts to budgets, too. So, I know you're talking about a period of 12 months, but the situation has declined for many of these organisations and they're under huge pressure. Can I ask you therefore, if there is no additional financial support for them in the budget, what's plan B in terms of the Welsh Government? Because you will have heard from your discussions with local government how concerned they are in terms of the third sector and the services that they provide—so many Welsh Government plans, for example, in order to tackle poverty, and so on, which are so crucial, are in the hands of the third sector. So, what is the Welsh Government's plan if the definition doesn't change?

Well, of course, Llywydd, it's my intention, with my colleagues, to use the extra money we have to be able to go on supporting the third sector and other organisations we are able to fund in Wales. They will have extra money from the Welsh Government, I feel confident, next year. I'm afraid you will have to wait to have a draft budget to see the extent of that, and then those organisations, like any other organisation, will have to look at the demands that they have to satisfy and how they prioritise the funding that is available to them. But the fact that we have £1 billion that we didn't have before 30 October will mean that those sectors will see some benefit from that, even if at the same time they have extra costs that they now need to meet.

Llywydd, the spending priorities for the Welsh Government will be set out in the draft budget on 10 December.

Thank you for that brief answer, Cabinet Secretary. One of the priorities that people in my constituency, and indeed the wider communities of Conwy and Denbighshire, want to see on your list is the delivery of a new community hospital for the people of north Denbighshire. It's long been promised, but thus far, unfortunately, there has been insufficient progress on the delivery of that promise. It's been 11 years since you made an announcement that there was going to be a new hospital with additional beds to take pressure off Glan Clwyd Hospital just down the road. When can people expect to see an announcement on the funding being available to deliver that project, so that once and for all we can deal with some of the acute pressures in our acute hospital site?

Well, Llywydd, I recognise the frustration that Darren Millar expresses, just as I recognise the consistency with which he has made the case for that investment. He will know that the 11 years since I was first able to identify that work as something the Welsh Government would wish to support, those 11 years have been 11 years of rising costs and falling resource, so that by the time the last full business case was submitted in March 2021, the costs had escalated to over £100 million.

However, two bits of better news for the Member: first of all, work has been going on, and I know he'll be aware of this, because there has been a wide range of partners involved in it, to review the scope of the development and to identify a realistic way forward. The scheme will, I'm sure, be seeking support both from the Welsh Government's health capital fund and from the rebalancing capital fund that we have between health and social care. We're expecting that that business case will be submitted to the Welsh Government for consideration in this financial year. So, that's one piece of—. I hope you will think that that is of good news, that we appear to have a date by which we will see that new plan. And the second piece of good news is that with £235 million additional capital available to us in Wales next year, then the needs of the health service will be much in my mind as I have discussions across the whole of the Welsh Government, and my hope will be that we will be able to see, compared to what we have had, a significant increase in the capital available to the NHS in Wales, so that schemes such as that at the Royal Alexandra can be moved forward.

Many of us over the years, including council leader Jason McLellan, the cabinet member Elen Heaton, and local member Barry Mellor, have been lobbying for investment in the Royal Alexandra. I was pleased to attend a meeting with the health board just last week and to hear that proposals have been updated so that the social healthcare need can be addressed, along with the minor injuries unit, and I was told that a fully costed plan will be presented next year to the health board and to Welsh Government. But I know that this cannot be achieved without the funds that I've been consistently calling for, and an end to the Tory austerity that starved Wales, and I was delighted that the UK Government understands this and wants to actually invest in public services. So, Cabinet Secretary, what difference will the £553 million extra capital funding—that's 250 times more than the previous UK Government—make to ensure that projects such as this really important one will actually go ahead?

I thank Carolyn Thomas for that and acknowledge that this development has been one that has been very widely supported by our local authorities, as well as the health board itself. The frustration has not been in the support for the scheme; the frustration has been in the lack of resource for us to be able to take forward so many of the necessary investments across Wales. Next year's uplift in capital will allow us to make a start in addressing the accumulated backlogs that have built up during the period of austerity, and it will make a material difference. It'll make a material difference both in the plans that are now maturing for the community provision and the interface between health and social care at the Rhyl site and in so many other aspects of public life in Wales. We heard earlier from Peter Fox, and he was making completely fair points about demands on local authorities for investment in transport infrastructure. Everywhere you look in Wales, 14 years of not having the investments we need has left demands that we cannot satisfy in a single year. But next year, quite certainly, we will be able to make a start on that journey in a way that was unimaginable back in March.

I thank Joyce Watson. The UK budget provides a much-needed boost for working people and takes the first steps to rebuilding vital public services. The UK Government has listened to what Wales needs, including providing £25 million towards coal tip safety and an increase in our settlement of £1.7 billion over two financial years.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, it was good news for us, receiving the best-ever settlement that we have had. The UK Minister said the budget will enable investment in schools and other public services, as an example. Cabinet Secretary, without disclosing too much—because I know you won't—are you able to give us any details on what difference the consequentials could have on education here in Wales, particularly on the additional learning needs sector?

I thank Joyce Watson for that. I gave her just one example of the Welsh-specific issues in the budget that she herself has often highlighted here on the floor of the Senedd. There are others as well; there's the Celtic free port investment, the hydrogen project in Milford Haven, to talk of just two in the Member's own immediate locality, on top of all the investments that the Member has highlighted in relation to carers, and unpaid carers as well.

In relation to education, I'm very well aware, from my conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, of the extraordinary rise in the number of young people who are being identified as having additional learning needs. There has been funding year on year added to additional learning needs in Wales, but the call for that extra support has significantly outstripped previous estimates of what that call would be. So, in my conversations with her in preparing the budget, those new demands have been very much highlighted by her.

On the capital front that Joyce Watson mentioned, of course, here in Wales, the twenty-first century schools programme means that we're in a very different position, nearly a decade into that programme, than schools in England are facing. But I'm also aware, from the points made to me by both the Cabinet Secretary and local authority leaders as I've met them in recent weeks, of the repairs issue at a school level—not new schools now, but keeping the existing fabric of buildings up to the standard that they need to be. And on the capital side, that has also very much been part of my conversations with Lynne Neagle.

Following on from one of your answers earlier, one of the damaging consequences of the UK Government's recent budget was the national insurance hike on charities and third sector bodies. Office of Budget Responsibility figures show that the average annual tax increase for employers will be in excess of £800 per employee. With approximately 134,500 people working in the Welsh voluntary sector, even with part-time work this would suggest a total increase in the sector's national insurance bill of around £100 million a year. As the WCVA's letter to you states:

'Many voluntary organisations in Wales operate under tight financial constraints and play a vital role in delivering essential services alongside the public sector, yet only public sector employers are set to be reimbursed for these increased costs.

'This...is a significant new cost that many organisations simply cannot absorb without a corresponding impact on their service delivery.'

The Welsh Government relies on these services, so what, if any, support will you provide the charitable sector to safeguard these vital services and mitigate this short-sighted policy?

The Chancellor faced a £22 billion black hole in the income that she had available to her and the expenditure that had already been committed by the outgoing Conservative Government. That £22 billion black hole is almost exactly matched by the irresponsible tax cut in national insurance contributions of the previous Chancellor. So, the problem that is facing the sectors here in Wales is the legacy of the decisions made by that previous Government. I've already answered questions this afternoon, Llywydd, about the actions that I hope we will be able to take in supporting those sectors that are affected by that decision, and I don't think there's anything further that I can offer the Member this afternoon.

I thank Luke Fletcher for that. We remain on track to deliver the reforms announced for this Senedd term. The Local Government Finance (Wales) Act 2024 makes significant improvements, including more frequent revaluations, actions to address avoidance and, as from next year, a power to introduce differential multipliers.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. I listened with great interest to the exchanges across the Chamber earlier on in this session. I take the Cabinet Secretary's point that half of businesses in Wales don't pay business rates, but I'm not sure if that detracts from the potential of varying the multiplier for business rates, because, as far as I can see it, what varying the multiplier could do is shift the burden of who pays those business rates, and whether or not they are paying enough of that share of the overall pot. If we look at that, and we do shift that burden, there's a potential there to free up some of that cash that we use for business rate relief to be invested elsewhere. Is that fair to say? In anticipating the Government gaining the ability to use the powers in the local government finance Act, what preparatory work is being done in the context of wider reform of the system?

I thank Luke Fletcher for that, and I apologise for the fact that I ran out of time before answering this point that he made in the debate we had on these matters last week. He's absolutely right, that is exactly how the multiplier operates: it shifts the burden of business rates from smaller businesses to larger businesses.

The issue that you face in Wales is that our pattern of businesses is very different to the pattern in England. There, it is much easier, I believe, to shift the burden to very large employers, because the number of very large employers in England is very different to the number of large employers in the Welsh economy. The average rateable value in Wales is £19,000, and the average in England is £34,000. The structures of our economy mean that some of the policy levers available across our border are not as easily used here in Wales.

That does not mean to say that they cannot be used at all, and that's why the powers in the 2024 Act are important. We undertook, during the passage of that Act, to consult on any proposals to introduce differential multipliers here in Wales, so work is going on to map what the impact would be of moving in that direction. But I can provide an assurance to Members that whatever proposals come forward will be subject to the full consultation that the Senedd was anxious to see during the passage of that Bill.

I've listened eagerly to what's already been said, but these proposed changes to business rates in Wales have been driven by a Welsh Labour Government that has already slashed small business relief from the 75 per cent to 40 per cent, and as a result, small family-run businesses like our local pubs and restaurants are now paying significantly higher rates than their counterparts in England, as you've said. I've spoken to many business owners who feel the strain and believe that this Government simply doesn't understand or care about business. These enterprises are the backbone of our communities. As you said, some don't have to pay business rates, but still, there are many that do. So, will you commit today, as part of these so-called reforms, that the Welsh Labour Government will consider reinstating the 75 per cent relief for small businesses in Wales, for those that are still being affected?

I've already said that I don't have any plans to reinstate it. We're investing an additional £78 million this year to provide a fifth successive year of temporary support for those sectors. The Member says 'some' businesses don't pay business rates—50 per cent of businesses don't pay any business rates in Wales. It's not just 'some'; almost half of them don't. And of those that do, another 30 per cent—more than 30 per cent—get help, on a sliding scale, with those bills. We invest, year on year, over £300 million of taxpayers' money in providing relief for businesses here in Wales. We're pleased to do that, because it allows those businesses to create the conditions in which they can be successful. But the notion that businesses in Wales are short-changed by the system we have simply doesn't bear practical examination.

I thank Peter Fox. Our focus is on keeping our taxes clear, simple and stable. Through this and such things as our non-domestic rates support package, we demonstrate our commitment to supporting businesses in Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Soon, this Parliament will undergo scrutiny of the tourism levy here in Wales—a new dimension to your taxation policy, should its passage be secured. My colleagues and I, as you know, strongly oppose the implementation of such a levy and I know that businesses across Wales have deep anxiety over its impact. They and we do not believe that it will support the industry—to the contrary, we believe it will damage our economy.

We know that it will be down to local authorities to manage this levy. However, too often, we see councils forced to rely on revenue raising to make up for rising pressures that the local government settlement hasn't always addressed. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what safeguards can be given to the tourism sector that, if this tax succeeds in coming forward, it will be used as additional investment and not funnelled to support other struggling services?

I look forward to bringing the visitor levy Bill to the floor of the Senedd. I completely disagree with the viewpoint of the Conservative Party; it is a way of dealing with the impact of tourism in those parts of Wales that most rely upon it that helps to make sure that those places go on being attractive to visitors in the future. Right around the globe, this has been used and there is no evidence that it leads to a detrimental impact, because the money that is raised will be reinvested in making sure that the things that bring tourists to an area go on being available to them. When the Bill is introduced, the Member will see that it uses a definition that would require those local authorities who choose to have a visitor levy—. Because it's not just that local authorities will administer the levy, it will be for local authorities to decide whether or not this is a useful tool in their armoury. It is part of this Government's commitment to devolution not just to Wales but within Wales. The way in which the money collected by a visitor levy is deployed will also be subject to an annual consultation with tourism businesses in that area. So, the businesses concerned will have a direct voice in the way in which that revenue is deployed. I am confident that our local authorities will use the money, should they choose to raise it, in ways that make that industry, which is very important in a number of our local authorities in Wales, an industry that goes on being successful and attractive into the future.

Thank you very much, of course, for the question, Llywydd. We are drafting our response to the report by the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities at the moment. When we review 'Future Wales', we will consider all evidence, including the commission's recommendations.

Yesterday, when discussing the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report and her role in policy development, I mentioned the importance of ensuring that one aspect of the Government's policy work doesn't undermine other policy work.

Another area where there is potential for conflict is with the Government's 'Future Wales' national development plan, and the work of developing strategic development plans through the corporate joint committees. I'd ask the Government to reconsider the principles driving this work, because there is a danger that the regional strategic plans will militate against important policy work that's taking place through the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities, and also militate against the Arfor plan, which unites areas in the west of our country.

What, therefore, is your vision, as Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh language, from the perspective of the areas of high-intensity linguistic significance, and what is your vision for Arfor 3, which is the next sensible step to take with this innovative plan?

I thank Siân Gwenllian. Llywydd, I listened carefully to the points that she made in yesterday's debate, and I've already spoken to officials this morning to have more advice on the point that she raised about where one policy conflicts with other policies. So, thank you for raising those points.

As I'm sure Siân Gwenllian knows, we're waiting for a specific report from the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities in the area of planning, which was part of the first phase of the commission, but they have decided to provide a separate report in December, hopefully, about their recommendations in the area of planning. So, we can use that. And my ambition is to use the experiences that we've already had with Arfor 1 and Arfor 2 to build on some of the recommendations in the report that we've seen already and that was launched in the Eisteddfod. I'm looking forward to returning to the floor of the Senedd next year with the Government's response to all of the recommendations in the first report, and considering the points made by Siân Gwenllian this afternoon in the process of responding to the recommendations.

Finally, question 8, Rhys ab Owen.

Llywydd, in addition to our work across Wales to promote the Welsh language to help ensure that it is a language for all, we ask all local authorities to provide information in their Welsh in education strategic plan annual reports on how they promote the Welsh language among ethnic minority communities.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. When I attended a Welsh-medium primary school in Cardiff in the 1990s, there was just one child from an ethnic minority in a year of 70 children, and there was just one Muslim family at the school of over 400 children. Now, things have improved, but there is a lot of work to do still, and we certainly can't attract children from families where Welsh and English are not the first language—that's obvious when you visit schools in Riverside and Canton.

Now, I've asked a similar question to you recently, but I have the figures now, and the figures across Wales show that just 2.5 per cent of children from families where Welsh and English are not the first language receive Welsh education. If you take Gwynedd out, the figure falls to 1.6 per cent. They're shocking figures, and they're not small figures in terms of the numbers of children—1.6 per cent of children from families where English and Welsh are not the first language receive Welsh education. I'm sure we understand the reason, that parents want their children to speak English, but that is possible through Welsh education. We know that. So, will the Cabinet Secretary make a commitment to undertake a specific campaign to attract minority ethnic children to Welsh education?

Well, Llywydd, I agree with Rhys ab Owen on the importance of attracting more children from BAME communities into Welsh-medium education. I recall in the first year of Ysgol Treganna, there wasn't a single person, no-one at all, from a minority ethnic community at the school, and now the school is very different indeed.

I want to see more possibilities in terms of bringing people into the sector, and the way to do that, or one of the ways of doing it, in my opinion, is by using the experiences that we've now had with families from those communities in order to explain to others, and to use word of mouth, and to persuade them that a child who attends a school where the education is provided through the medium of Welsh of course will understand, and will learn English simultaneously, but they will also be able to speak Welsh.

So, we have been successful, but we haven't yet done enough. But now, with those families who've already been through the experience, we can use the lessons that they've learned, and the experiences that they've had, to persuade others.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 2 is questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Tom Giffard.

Yes. The coastal risk management programme construction scheme at Mumbles is progressing at pace. The risk management authority have confirmed that the construction is due to complete in April 2025.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, for the update. These works to defend the coastline of Mumbles are very welcome, and much needed to safeguard the village, hopefully long into the future. The attraction and the appeal of Mumbles doesn't need to be explained. I think many of us understand that. But also what makes Mumbles what it is are the local businesses that thrive and operate in the village. But the works have caused significant disruption for them in terms of reduced parking and reduced footfall in recent months. I've been speaking with local Mumbles councillors Francesca O'Brien, Will Thomas and Angela O'Connor, who tell me that those businesses feel unsupported whilst those works go on, and have received no financial assistance. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you look at the assistance on offer to support businesses who suffer disruption to their business when works like these flood defences take place? 

Thank you, it's a really important point, and you, like me, who love the Mumbles, recognise the importance of this work, and getting it done in a timely manner as well. It's a significant piece of work and it does cause disruption to some extent. Indeed, we understand that the risk management authority and also the contractors have acknowledged the impact of the construction within the community, and they're working with the community liaison officer to try and reduce the impacts.

Now, the construction works have been programmed to try and reduce the impact to local businesses, even with regard to my comments there that they acknowledge that there is an impact, and also to residents to reduce the impact on residents. So, access to businesses remains open throughout the construction, I'm told, and deliveries are programmed as well to minimise disruption to the operation of those businesses. The contractors, I'm told, are also providing monthly drop-in sessions for businesses and for residents as well, but if I could urge any residents or businesses to get involved with those regular drop-in sessions and to feed back their views through the risk management authority and to the contractors.

But can I simply say, Tom, as well, as you do—it was good to hear you welcome the works that are going on because they are much needed. It's protecting 126 properties at a cost of £26.5 million, which is 85 per cent funded by Welsh Government. It also, as you and I know, has those wider benefits, including regeneration of those lovely public open spaces on the front and the objectives, of course, are those of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. So, please urge your constituents to keep feeding in their thoughts on any disruption, but I'm told that both the contractor and the risk management authority really want to minimise it and to work with residents and businesses. 

There is significant interest in seaweed farming in Wales for a range of purposes. We are supportive of industry-led growth of the aquaculture sector and would welcome any proposals from industry that deliver growth in our coastal communities whilst aligning with the policies of the Welsh national marine plan.

Cabinet Secretary, as you are aware, the global seaweed market is valued at over £7 billion and has an annual growth rate of around 12 per cent. It is increasingly used in food products, animal feed, cosmetics, biofuels, bioplastics and fertiliser, but despite our potential in the UK to grow and harvest seaweed, we are heavily reliant on imported seaweed from Asia, which accounts for up to 95 per cent of all total supplies. Seaweed farming is hampered in the UK by insufficient seeding supplies, logistical issues and a lack of processing facilities, which prevents the potential growth of the industry. 

The marine plan area around Wales is 32,000 sq km, of which 50 per cent is suitable for cultivating kelp, and there is enormous potential for us to develop seaweed cultivation commercial ventures, which has been estimated to be worth over £100 million a year to the Welsh economy. I recognise that work is being done to help generate this industry, however the pace is far too slow and we need to act. We need you, Cabinet Secretary, to set out a robust and forward-thinking plan for growing this industry in Wales. When can we expect to see such a plan being brought forward? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Joel, and I notice your consistent advocacy for the potential of the seaweed sector for all of those diverse applications, which do have really exciting potential. We have noted there is significant interest in the potential benefits of seaweed farming, but—and it is a big 'but', Joel—we've yet to see this actually translated into viable projects and commercial propositions. And, of course, we also need to be cognisant of analysing that in terms of the wider marine environment and marine planning as well, if they were to come forward. 

But one thing that might be of help and that you could encourage, Joel, people to feed into—. I will be setting out a strategic approach to Welsh fisheries and aquaculture—via a written statement, Llywydd, if it receives your approbation as well—within the next few weeks. So, in the meantime, I expect our future direction to remain as we've already set out with the delivery of sustainable management at its core, and a focus on delivery of fisheries management plans and adapted management measures. All of this needs to be supported by the science and engagement with stakeholders. So, we will continue to deliver this in line with our statutory duties on fisheries and aquaculture. We will seek opportunities and initiatives to support the industry to develop and grow, but we need to see those proposals coming forward and the commercial viability of them, and them fitting in with our wider sustainability of the marine environment. 

On a final point, our regular funding rounds through the Welsh marine and fisheries scheme, Joel, will be designed to underpin the priorities that help deliver those outcomes that we all want to see.

I recently took an opportunity to visit Câr-y-Môr regenerative seaweed and shellfish farm in St Davids—well, not actually in St Davids; in the water off St Davids—and they're going to build a new seaweed processing facility, and it'll be the first of its kind in Wales. Seaweed, as you will know, has biostimulants and contains substances that are mostly organic. Those stimulate plants' natural processes for growth, flowering, fruiting and resistance to drought, heat and cold. Can you look at the possibility, and you mentioned some of them, of supporting this as a way of sustainable farming? Because those biostimulants are an alternative to synthetic fertilisers and pesticides, so they feed nicely into that sustainable farming agenda that you have.

So, what I'm really asking is, they're going through a trial and testing stage at the moment—because you're right, the viability of the project is key—but will you support them to go through that testing procedure so that, if that viability is what we hope it will be, it sustains our environment for the future, but also sustains farming for the future and growing for the future as well?

Joyce, thank you very much for that question and, again, I recognise your sustained advocacy for the potential of this sector and particularly for Câr-y-Môr. And indeed, Câr-y-Môr, the first commercial seaweed farm within Wales, located off Ramsey Sound in St David’s, interestingly, it is a community benefit society and it does have some exciting potential in terms of producing seaweed-based biofertilizer and livestock feed additives, and the potential of that in the reduction of methane as well. So, it is genuinely exciting, but they are at those early stages and there are challenges in bringing this forward.

There can also be potential with bringing shellfish produce to the domestic market I understand, with a current capacity to process, I’m told, some four tonnes per day of fresh seaweed, and they are looking to expand further. So, we would definitely encourage initiatives like this. There are challenges in getting these off the ground and taking them from the early stages and growing them. But we’re keen to support, as I said in my response to Joel as well, where there is potential, to encourage and support them to get through those barriers and to grow in that context as well of the wider marine environment and marine planning as well. So, they need to be commercially viable—we’re certainly encouraging of them—and fit within our sustainability approach for fisheries and agriculture.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. The risk and cost of increased rainfall due to climate change are rising without doubt, with extreme weather events becoming more frequent. Last winter, Natural Resources Wales issued 483 flood alerts—a 16 per cent increase on the previous year. UK winters are now 10 per cent wetter.

Increasing rainfall is, though, putting increased pressure on our reservoirs. Earlier this year, the Rapidan Dam in Blue Earth county, Minnesota failed due to intense flooding, leading to urgent evacuation of nearby residents. Similarly, here in the UK in 2019, thousands of people were evacuated from Whaley Bridge because part of a reservoir wall had collapsed, and, a decade ago, a whole village in Gwynedd had to be evacuated due to a landslide that caused a crack in a nearby reservoir.

Now, there’s been much talk about coal tip safety, and, really, what I’m very concerned about—. My own constituency saw a dreadful disaster in Dolgarrog. You announced last week by written statement that you will be co-operating with the UK Government to reform reservoir safety. Bearing in mind that there are over 20 privately owned and high-risk reservoirs in Wales, why was this not brought before our Senedd for scrutiny?

Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. Reservoir safety is a key issue for Welsh Government and the opportunity has arisen to work with the UK Government on an England-and-Wales basis to review the whole landscape of the regulation of reservoirs across England and Wales. And I think it’s right that we take that opportunity because, where there is a will to work across Governments and to make sure that we have a fit-for-purpose now and for the future, when, as you rightly say, we are facing, not just increased in rainfall but deluges—. As we look to the advice from the Met Office, we’re not only seeing increasing levels of rainfall, but rainfall that stops over areas, as we have seen recently, but not only, in the tragedies unfolding within Spain and other parts of central Europe. Now, this does cause major issues for all of our infrastructure, including reservoirs. So, we are keen to work with the UK Government on this jointly. It's a signal of the approach that we are taking now that we have a Government at the other end of the M4 that is willing to work with us on it. But, rest assured, there will be opportunities, undoubtedly, for the Senedd also to consider the way forward. We've started on the engagement with the UK Government, but we'll make sure those opportunities are here as well, for the committee, and for Senedd Members, Janet.

Now, the written statement outlined the ambition to create a modern approach to hazard management and updating regulation and enforcement. There are concerns, though, for funding. NRW alone has 20 high-risk reservoirs, and they've already spent £2.68 million in 2019-20, and £3.72 million in 2020-21 on only 10, and they were essential safety projects. That's averaging out at around £600,000 per reservoir. Bearing in mind the phenomenal costs that can be associated with making our reservoirs more substantial, do you stand by your comments to the Senedd last month that every private owner of a reservoir now needs to know that they have these responsibilities, and, with them, the liability?

Thank you, Janet. I absolutely stand by that. Anybody who owns a reservoir on their land, big or small, that is caught within the regulations needs to be very clear on their responsibilities. It's an onerous responsibility to take on the maintenance and the public safety aspects of actually having a reservoir on your land. Now, every landowner should be aware of those—they should be aware of them. But, if they're not, you, and I, and others, along with NRW, need to signal them directly, to make sure that they are aware of that and what that means. Because this is not only a case of public taxpayer money going towards the large assets that are controlled in different parts of Wales and England, it's also those large companies, such as Dŵr Cymru and others, who have large reservoir assets. They know their responsibilities and their liabilities. But it's also those smaller landowners who have reservoirs. I noticed with interest recently there was an advertisement for a reservoir for sale—one that those of us within the south Wales area know quite well. It was pitched as a very attractive real estate proposition. We would hope that—what do we call them in this country; we don't call them real estate agents—[Interruption.]—yes, indeed—those people who are selling the land are also making clear to the potential buyers that they are aware of the liabilities that come with taking on a property with a reservoir on it. Because it carries significant responsibilities.

I'm aware of conveyancing methods whereby, sometimes, they don't always inform, when you're buying land, of your obligations regarding culverts, ditches and whatever, but also too with reservoirs. Now, between 2019 and 2021, £0.5 million of taxpayers' money was spent on orphan reservoirs. I find this fascinating, because it just baffles me how people can walk away from responsibilities, and then these reservoirs are classed as orphan reservoirs. It bothers me why, under Land Registry rules, you can't find out who owns them. And also, only £20,000 has been allocated to NRW's reservoir regulation team for their work in relation to the private reservoirs. There isn't a single penny of support for owners of private reservoirs, despite the costs that could be involved, and, more, the significant risk to whole communities. I believe this situation can be, potentially, as dangerous as coal tip safety. So, with around 20 privately owned reservoirs in Wales classified as high risk, wouldn't it be wiser now, Cabinet Secretary, as part of the new reservoir approach that you will be developing with the UK Government, to take a more proactive approach, which sees the state and the private owners co-operate together? It's not something that private landowners will or can do on their own. And then we've got the orphan reservoirs, and then we've got other reservoirs, owned by Dŵr Cymru and things like that. So, do you think you could almost have a task and—I don't like 'task and finish group', but a taskforce, to make sure that there's a cohesive approach to this?

Thank you, Janet. I'm worried, Llywydd, that we might run out of people to people these task and finish groups. We might run out of the great Welsh will to, actually, work with us on it. But, look, I do take the serious point behind this. This is the exact reason why we are doing this proper joined-up approach to look at it, because the same issues, by the way, are happening right over the border, the other side of Offa's Dyke. As a former Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister with responsibility for this area, crikey, 15 years ago now, I'm very aware that we're facing the same challenges. So, I think the regulatory joint work that we're doing is the right way to do it. I look forward, if the Senedd or the committee looks at the issue of how we actually fund this, in ideas coming forward. But let me make it very clear: this cannot nor should not fall entirely on the taxpayer. If I owned a piece of land with a reservoir on it, grand or small, it is my liability within that. Now, there are ways in which we can assist, looking at this going forward.

The other assurance I want to give, because there is a danger within this, particularly when we've seen some of the near-catastrophic incidents in other parts of the UK, is to give the assurance that NRW and the risk management authorities tightly monitor the condition of these reservoirs, so we're not looking at imminent danger or damage from any of these small or large reservoirs; they're tightly risk assessing them. That's why we know, by the way, where the risks are, same as with coal tips—the piece of work that we've done within Welsh Government. But now we need to look properly at, well, how do we make sure that the responsibilities and the liabilities that come from having a reservoir on your land—big and small—are properly accounted for. And yes, you raise the important point of orphan reservoirs, where they are left as stranded not assets but liabilities. Well, that's part of what we're looking at as well, how we deal with that. And I look forward to having the opportunity in front of the Senedd or in front of committees to engage in this in more detail.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell. 

Diolch, Llywydd. The warning signals of climate breakdown are flashing red, with intensifying floods, storms, heatwaves. Climate leadership by Wales and the UK is more essential than ever. But the imminent return of Trump, a recognised climate denier, means the prospect of the US once again abandoning the Paris agreement looms large. Analysts predict Trump's agenda could pump billions more tonnes of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. In that context, Keir Starmer's pledge to cut UK emissions by 81 per cent by 2035, it's a step in the right direction. It must surely be seen as a baseline not a limit, though. Could you clarify, please, what conversations you've had with the UK Government about that new pledge, and, crucially, to what degree the Welsh Government has been involved in shaping that goal? Can you assure us that Wales's specific needs, our perspectives, are being taken into account as we respond to this urgent, increasingly alarming climate crisis?

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for raising this on the floor today in the middle of these hundreds of climate conversations that we're having right across Wales this week, with young people, older people, community groups, business, commerce, academics and so on. I've been deep in those conversations this week, and there is a serious acknowledgement across Welsh civic society of the way we need, individually and collectively, as Government and individual citizens, to step up to the mark so that we can deal with what is already locked in there, which is around 1.5 degrees and, actually, turn the dial back down and make sure that we can get ahead of this. And we can do it.

I was speaking to young people, as part of our, if you like, COP with young people, in the peace temple in Cathays Park today—hundreds of young children from across Wales; there's another event in Wrexham later on this week there—and they're absolutely driving us, in the same way, Delyth, that I've had those conversations with our UK Ministers to say, 'We will support you to show leadership, go further.' I'm delighted to see that—. I understand you've described it as a 'step'; I think it's, actually, a step change from what we've seen in recent years, to say an 81 per cent cut in emissions, and, yes, Wales will be not only at the table with UK Ministers in making sure that that fits in what we are doing. We know the three biggest challenges for us in Wales are manufacturing and industry—and we want manufacturing and industry, but—actually helping them go through that transition towards a greener, fairer future; it's in transport, of course, and we need to bring forward that bus Bill, we need to invest in rail and we need to invest in walking and cycling as well and all those other modal shifts; and it's in agriculture, and the work we do with farmers not to farmers, so that we can help them so that we can help them build in climate resilience. But we need to drive those emissions down. We are quietly confident that we’re on target to bring in Wales within carbon budget 2, in terms of where we are, but carbon budget 3, which we’re already working on—and we will need all of your support—will be like Eryri compared to the hill I walk up on the way back home every night. It will be a lot steeper.

Thank you for that and for setting down that challenge. It’s fair to expect that, given this new commitment on a UK level to accelerate emissions targets, this will come with increased Government support for a just transition, and you’ve just been setting that out. Now, that creates a vital opportunity for us to take forward all of those ambitions you have set out, Cabinet Secretary. The Wales Net Zero 2035 Challenge Group have provided clear pathways for achieving net zero by 2035. Now, as you’ve just outlined, the Senedd will soon decide carbon budget 4 targets. The next Welsh Government will outline its strategy for carbon budget 3. There is a pressing need for Wales to align with that faster pace. So, is the Welsh Government giving serious consideration to adopting the Wales Net Zero 2035 Challenge Group pathways in order to reach net zero by 2035 because of this accelerated commitment that’s needed?

Yes, thank you, Delyth. My predecessor was really pleased, with the support of colleagues as well, to establish that 2035 challenge group. They’ve done remarkable work, they really have. But even they recognise—and I pay tribute to Jane Davidson in chairing that, but also all the individuals who brought their ideas together—that there are parts of their proposals to get to 2035 net zero that will be incredibly challenging not just for Government, but for individuals. So, we are going to consider seriously everything that is within that report.

But I think, in this just transition piece, and bringing people with us, we also need to not just think about the scientific evidence that underpins how we get there, in the data driving towards reducing emissions and decarbonisation and so on, but we need to use the behavioural sciences and how we bring people with us, and where there are those nudges, regulations and other things making it easy for people to make the right choices. I got onto the train the other day going to the Netherlands—the train, there’s a choice; not a plane, a train. But when I got onto the train at Cardiff first thing in the morning, I picked up, from that kiosk we all know there, a coffee. I got onto that train, with the coffee in front of me and said to the colleague who was travelling with me, ‘Look at that. Why is that significant?’ Because we in Wales, with the support of citizens in Wales, have changed our approach to single-use plastics. There was not a bit of plastic within it. It was all branded, recyclable material. I didn’t have to think about that; I just went and bought a cup of coffee, and there it was—Wales making a difference. And there’s the message this week as well, because we’re in climate week, because some of those climate change deniers will say, ‘What can Wales do?’ Well, we can change the world. We just have to show the leadership. 

We absolutely can change the world. And one of the possibly more quiet elements of that—a quiet element of changing our natural world, but an element that is nevertheless fundamentally important—is about addressing biodiversity loss. In your recent session with the climate change committee on this, you set out that the biodiversity targets under the environmental governance Bill could take up to three years after the Bill is passed. Given that we expect the Bill to pass in 2026, that could mean delays until 2029. Now, that is a serious concern because the legislation is crucial to Wales’s responsibility to halt biodiversity loss, and, yes, changing the natural world. And I head some sniggers from another part of the Chamber when we said that, but that is essentially what we’re looking to do. Could you assure us that you’re working to shorten that time frame as much as possible, to start to develop those targets in parallel with the Bill’s passage, so that we can meet this urgent challenge of reversing biodiversity loss by 2030, because the longer the delay, the more irreversible losses we’ll see, and the more things that we’ll lose that we’ll never get back in our natural world?

Yes, Delyth, you’re absolutely right. And the biodiversity restoration piece goes hand in hand with the climate adaptation and resilience piece. We need to do both together. I had significant challenge from that committee when I set out our working timetable on bringing forward the targets. There is a rationale behind it, which I’m keen to share with the committee, but I’m also keen to come back in front of the committee and see whether—and it is the question I put back to my officials—we can expedite the progress towards bringing those targets earlier, whilst getting the right targets and making sure that they are the right targets and they’re well grounded in the evidence as well. So, let’s carry on that discussion. I was taken by the pushback from committee, from you and the Chair and others. So, let’s see where we get to. It’s a Bill in progress. I’m always a Minister who likes to work with committees to see if we can make improvements.

Since the UK Government published their budget on 30 October, Welsh Government officials have had numerous discussions with the UK Government on this matter.

Cabinet Secretary, this week, I heard from a local farmer in Monmouthshire who fears that small family farms like hers will be driven into the ground by Labour’s changes to inheritance tax, turning once thriving farms into prey for developers and ripping apart the heart of our rural communities. Let’s call it what it is: it’s a Labour-driven rural land grab. But it gets worse, earlier this week, former senior Labour aid John McTernan said, and I quote,

'we don’t need small farmers',

and this is

'an industry we can do without'.

It’s disgraceful, and I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, do Mr McTernan’s views reflect the disdain that Labour harbours for the working people of the countryside who tirelessly work to feed our nation? Will you stand up to the UK Labour Government, who are sacrificing the backbone of our agricultural communities while senior Labour figures imply our small farms are disposable?

Laura, thank you for that question. Let me say where I am exactly. First of all, I think we should take real pride in the fact that, on 30 October, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Rachel Reeves, presented the first ever UK budget by a female Chancellor in British history. It does represent, Laura, I must say, the first steps towards fixing 14 years' damage that has been caused to our public services and our communities by the previous Conservative UK Government. But, the Government have had to make some very tough decisions, addressing challenges inherited from the previous administration.

Now, whilst there are indeed concerns about the impacts of changes to inheritance tax, specifically the agricultural property relief, and those are understandable, it’s certainly not helpful to speculate on numbers of affected farms given the many complex factors that are involved. Those include the farm ownership structures, the inheritance plans, the applicable reliefs that may apply, which all affect the application of APR. Farm values themselves also fluctuate, making it quite difficult to estimate how many are valued over the IHT threshold at any given point. But, simply to say, this is a reserved matter, but I am very aware, and I was at the NFU Cymru conference last week and spoke not only on the platform, taking questions on this and many other matters, like the sustainable farming scheme and many other things, but I also spoke to farmers directly about it as well. I have farmers in my extended family as well who I’ve also had discussions with. They will be taking advice on this to see whether or not this does affect them.

But in the absence of specific figures, because of all those complexities, I think the Treasury figures that have been presented about their estimate of the scale of farms that will be affected—. And bear in mind, there is a different structure, by and large, to farms in Wales. When we talk about family farming in Wales, those small and medium-scale farms, it is by characteristic significantly different from what there might be on average across the other side of the border in England. So, we have to see how this works out. I understand NFU Cymru and others will be making representations to the Chancellor, and I wish them well with that, to put forward the data and the evidence on their analysis. But, meanwhile, it is a reserved matter, Llywydd.

And the question is: will you be making those representations as well?

Now, you’re right—the nature of farms between England and Wales is very different. I’ve actually been looking at some of the Welsh Government’s own figures. The sustainable farming scheme’s economic impact assessment, published at the end of last year, considers the farms responsible for around 84 per cent of Wales’s total utilised agricultural area, 89 per cent of Welsh agricultural standard output, and 93 per cent of total grazing livestock—so, basically, working farms in Wales. The area of the farms considered in that report equates to an average farm value that’s well over double the proposed £1 million agricultural property relief threshold, equating to an inheritance tax bill that could actually be six times or more the average annual income of livestock farmers in Wales. So, the First Minister says that a very small proportion of Welsh farms would be affected. You've said that you don't have the figures to be able to quantify that, so I'm not sure where the First Minister got the figure. But, your own figures, published less than 12 months ago, suggest a very different picture—that a vast number of farms in Wales would not only be affected, but they won't be, actually, in a position to be able to afford to pay the tax bill. So, the question here is: will the Welsh Government, therefore, commit to publishing a comprehensive analysis of the possible impacts of the new APR threshold for all farm sizes and categories to answer the question that you've actually posed here yourself? And that, of course, doesn't include, then, the smallholdings and the other holdings that your own Government excluded from your economic impact assessment for the sustainable farming scheme.

So, Llyr, look—thank you for that question—for the reasons I outlined before, that every single farm, as we know, is very, very different, and they're different in how they approach their tax advice, whether they gift, whether there is a spousal arrangement as well, the application of this will be very, very different on every single individual landholding. So, to actually do what some have been asking, which is, 'Can you give us the specific number of farms that will be affected?', it is not possible—[Interruption.] It is not possible to do it, Llyr. [Interruption.]

Allow the Cabinet Secretary to provide the response now. 

So, what the First Minister was doing was, rightly, referring to the published His Majesty's Treasury data. Now, the HMT figures show that most farms will be unaffected by these changes. They show that, for 2021-22, in the most recent available data, across the whole of the United Kingdom there were just 462 claims for agricultural relief that were more than £1 million, and extrapolations have been made by some people then about what that means for Wales. But, let me add to that. Paul Johnson, the director of the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies has concluded that the changes should only affect a small number of the most valuable farms. However, as I said in response to the initial question, if stakeholders such as farming unions are able to generate alternative data, I'd be interested myself to look at that, but they need also to present that, as I understand they will be doing, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in London; not to my colleague here, but actually to Rachel Reeves. 

And it is important that all members of the farming unions, but also those who are not members of the farming unions, who will be listening to something of the clamour over this now, get into the detail of this and take good, sound advice. And, by the way, Llywydd, Farming Connect also are one of the organisations in this space, but I know that some farmers will be taking their own independent advice as well, which they will pay for, and so on. But, the details of the changes are all on HMT's website.

And simply to say, on one aspect that I haven't been asked about today but is really important in terms of this, the Welsh Government did, indeed, work with the UK Government to make sure that Welsh farmers joining the work that we're still doing on the sustainable farming scheme are not disadvantaged in any way by the agricultural property relief proposals. So, we're very keen to make sure that that is there as well. So, meanwhile, I would also say that I do have a worry, Llywydd—something of a worry—that some of the understandable noise around this will heighten worries and anxiety out there, and I do want to make sure that we refer anybody who is concerned about this not only to take good advice and to do the rational economic and fiscal thing for their farm, but also to know that there is support out there as well from many farming charities, such as the DPJ Foundation, Tir Dewi, RABI and the Farming Community Network. So, anybody who is worried about this, beyond the financial measures, 'Pick up the phone; there are people to talk to about this as well.'

This year, the Welsh Government has allocated £1.7 million to Cardiff Council for three capital schemes and £119,000 for three small-scale projects under the flood and coastal risk management programme. We have also provided over £32 million to Cardiff Council to construct a coastal defence scheme under the coastal risk management programme.

Diolch, Dirprwy Brif Weinidog. Some in this Chamber will remember the big floods in the early 1980s. I have only seen photos of them, when Cathedral Rd and many parts of Pontcanna and Canton were under water. But, Cardiff is still under threat from flooding. Rainfall just this year left many streets left many streets under water, and a couple had to be rescued from their car—in the capital city. Because Cardiff is fighting flooding on three fronts: we're the fourth most at-risk city from rising sea levels; we have three rivers flowing through Cardiff; and they then flow into the Severn estuary, the second highest tidal estuary in the whole world. In total, flooding is estimated to cost £200 million in damage every year, without the personal impact on individuals. Due to the high risk of flooding in Cardiff, will the Welsh Government expedite the future flooding framework, to help build flood resilience in the capital city? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Rhys, for that follow-up question. We're keen to do everything within our power, including some of the significant quantum of funding that I indicated in my initial response to you, which we are giving to Cardiff for a range of things. And you're right: it's actually river fluvial flooding combined with deluges, and surface water flooding, combined with coastal inundation and rising sea levels. In this week that we are having these conversations around climate action, we need to have those conversations with communities in Cardiff, which we are having as well, about their ideas of how we turn this around. But we will maintain, and we have, indeed, both last year and this year going ahead, record levels of investment in flood mitigation and alleviation.

It's not all hard defences. Some of this is to do, including in parts of Cardiff, with the use of a thing that bores many people in here, but I love it, and that's sustainable drainage systems. So, when you have those new developments, you're not discharging straight into the rivers, which could overload, you're actually slowing the water down. It is to do with the planting of the right tree in the right place as well. It's all of those things. And we need communities to be involved. Welsh Government has their role to play, with the funding that we are putting in. We also need the risk management authorities in those areas to step up and take forward that funding, and deliver the projects on the ground, some of which will be small, relevant to a small number of householders, to do with resilience and so on; some will be major, as they will be in Cardiff. Because we know, under the mapping, if we don't take the right action now to slow down the temperature rises that we're seeing, and the sea level rises, the mapping for Cardiff is not good. But we'll continue to invest in defending Cardiff, don't you worry.

Cabinet Secretary, as we have heard, flooding is becoming a more frequent occurrence in Cardiff, and the council has stated that the issue is caused in part by blocked drains, which they aim to rectify as quickly as possible, but also by the sewer system, which is unable to cope with the sheer amount of water that falls in our capital city. Worryingly, the situation is only going to get worse, as heavier rainfall continues to be predicted for this country. What conversations have you had, or what conversations have you and the Welsh Government had, with Welsh Water, to address this and increase the city's sewage capacity? Thank you.

Yes, this is a problem in Cardiff, but right across Wales as well, the load that we have on what was a fit-for-a-previous-century approach of having combined sewers and water discharge, where the load could be safely carried at that time, at that level of population, through that pipework. It is now antiquated and it's overloaded and, Joel, that's exactly why we are now at the forefront in Wales. In fact, we recently hosted a UK-wide event, in offices only 50 yards from here, that brought together SuDS engineers from across the UK. And I have to say, the plaudits that were given to Wales, for moving ahead rapidly within sustainable urban drainage systems—. And for those who don't know what these are, they're exactly to avoid the situation where all the discharge off roofs and the wider water system goes down the pipework directly, and then basically is beyond the capacity of that pipework. The idea here is that you use natural processes instead, and local authorities are engaging with this in Wales, to develop them into their town planning and the new streets, the new homes that they do, so that we're not discharging straight into the combined sewer network, but we're actually discharging into natural processes and slowing down the process of that into rivers. So, Joel, we'll keep on supporting local authorities, including Cardiff, to do that. And, in fact, Cardiff have got some brilliant schemes that, at that event, they took delegates around to show them what they were doing in new housing development.

Well, my office, my home and those of most of my constituents will be underwater unless we all change our ways. So, I wanted to ask you about the Greener Grangetown project, because here we've got a really good example of sustainable urban drainage, which has saved huge amounts of rain water going into the sewage system, saving money on energy, and obviously improving the environment. So, I want to explore not just why we don't have more Greener Grangetown-type systems across the city, where we do know that there's already flooding going on, as already referred to by Rhys ab Owen, but also how we are going to tap into the rain water system, and indeed where we wash our hands, to be used for flushing the toilet. Because it really is ridiculous that we're using drinking water for flushing the toilet, and then we don't even have enough rain water harvested to water the gardens, where drinking water is not the best option. So, we've really got to think quite differently in relation to reduce, reuse, recycle and how we're going to do that. Is it just money, or is it the lack of imagination and urgency going into this?

Jenny, thank you for that supplementary. Can I applaud, because I was talking about that SuDS conference and they went to see the Greener Grangetown initiative, and they were blown away by it, and thought, 'Well, how can we make this mainstream in England as well?' We need to do more of it in Wales. Now, it does mean a different way of thinking for engineers, who are traditionally thinking, 'Well, just plumb it into the pipelines. Just do a traditional hard engineering', but we now have a cadre of very well-informed SuDS engineers throughout Wales, with the support of Welsh Government, and they're in every local authority and starting to think very differently about it.

You rightly talk as well about the issue of what is sometimes referred to as, 'How do we use brown water systems?' I declare an interest here, Llywydd, as 15 years ago, when I built my house, we've got a submarine under the garden. It's a submarine-sized thing that harvests all the brown water. We flush our toilets with it; we make other uses of it. If we don't use the water butts in the garden to water the tomatoes, then we use the brown water system to do it and so on. But we somehow need to work across Government and local government to make this more normal and to innovate in that space, so that housing developments can do more of that as well. SuDS on one hand, rain water collection on another, which can be used for other purposes.

And the other simple thing is, Llywydd, frankly, saying to people, 'Don't waste water.' We've never had a proper value, if you like, on water, so people will fill the bath, they will use clean water that's been treated for a range of purposes that it doesn't need to be used for, and we need to get that message out there again. We have to do this constantly, to say to people, 'Value your water, because it isn't actually cheap or free. There is a cost in this, and some of those costs are actually to do with what we've been talking about here today, which is climate change.'

It's too early to have made a detailed assessment, but Welsh Ministers, with the Senedd's approval, will decide how to allocate the Welsh Government's budget to reflect our national priorities in Wales, including the £1.7 billion increase to our budget settlement, which will make a real difference to people in all our communities.

Minister, thank you for that answer. I recall the First Minister saying last week in First Minister's questions that the Welsh Government had done an analysis, but I think, in response to Llyr Gruffydd's question, you indicated that it was more of a general assessment that you'd taken from HM Revenue and Customs figures about the withdrawal of agricultural property relief. Is the Welsh Government minded to do a detailed piece of work that is specific to Welsh agriculture, so that we can get to fully understand the implications for the viability of Welsh agriculture that these proposals represent? Because if you take the Treasury's own figures, this will affect about 2,000 farms across the whole of the United Kingdom, and in a five-year parliamentary term, that's 10,000 farms. That is a big number of businesses that could be affected on a UK basis, but in a Welsh basis, we're talking several hundred, which would have a dramatic impact on the landscape and the productivity and viability of Welsh agriculture. So, is the Cabinet Secretary minded to undertake a piece of work that would support the assertion that the First Minister made in FMQs that a piece of work was under way?

Andrew, thank you for that follow-up question. I anticipated it would be about the wider budget in terms of Wales, but it's focused on inheritance tax and the agricultural property relief, which I'm happy to address again. In two other previous answers I've explained that the complexity of this means that to drill down to one individual figure is near impossible because of farm ownership structures; inheritance plans, or the absence thereof; the applicable reliefs that may be applied, or not; spouses, or not; gifting to children and so on, or not. The application of APR will vary enormously and so will the aspect of farm value as well. So, it's very difficult to get to a single point where you say, 'That is the impact.' So, as a result, as I've made clear, what we are relying on is the analysis that's been done by the Treasury, as I made clear in response to previous questions, but also some of the independent analysis that has come from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and others, which has also agreed with the Treasury analysis that the impact will not be on the scale that some are saying—it will be far less.

But let me just also point out here, on the budget, the difficulty of the current Chancellor of the Exchequer in filling the gap when walking into that office—and there's an impact here in Wales as well—and finding that what we thought had been committed financially had not been, and she then had to scrabble round to find ways of filling that. Well, farmers also, many of the farmers I know, will rely on good public services, they will rely on the NHS functioning well, and yet the last 14 years of deep cuts through the years after years of austerity, for which we've never had an apology in this Chamber—. It feels very much to me, Llywydd, like the arsonists who lit the match, stoked the fire, tried to burn the economy and public services, are now complaining about the damage, while warming their hands on the embers. Farmers and their families also want public services that are good, an NHS and public healthcare that is good, and all of these have been under sustained attack for a decade and more of Conservative Governments. So, underlying this is: to what extent are we all willing to contribute to the public wealth of this realm? And I think, and I say this confidently because of the conversations I've had, that farmers also recognise that they rely on these public services, they want to pay the due amount to make sure that we have good public services, and they look back on these 14 years as a constant attack from the people who tried to set fire to our economy.

We provide a wide range of direct and indirect support for farmers in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Our grants for investment in on-farm improvements, equipment and technology, and the learning and development on offer from Farming Connect all demonstrate our commitment to supporting a sustainable future for Welsh agriculture.

Thank you, Deputy First Minister. One thing that went under the radar slightly at the budget was the fact that, unnecessarily and without need, the Chancellor decided to redefine agricultural funding for the devolved nations through the Barnett formula, which was completely unnecessary. Previously, I've asked you and your predecessor, with regard to the sustainable farming scheme, to write to the Treasury to ask for a quantifiable amount of money that would be needed to deliver the scheme in Wales. Using the Bank of England’s interest rate calculator, that would be approximately £500 million. Can you confirm on the floor of this Chamber if you or your predecessor ever did write to the Chancellor or the Treasury on that, and whether you have had correspondence with them asking them not to change, not to redefine agricultural payments through the Barnett formula?

Thank you, Sam, for that question, and just to point out that the discussions with the UK Treasury were, of course, led by my colleague, who was here a moment ago, the finance Secretary, but in discussion with myself and my officials as well. Despite welcoming the removal of the ring-fenced replacement EU agriculture funding, we've long argued, long argued, and maintain that position, that resources should be allocated across the UK on the basis of relative need, as set out in 'Reforming our Union'. That reform will need to be agreed by all four nations, and set within a new fiscal agreement, overseen and operated by a body independent of UK Government. This would be far more efficient, far more effective. It would help to reduce the distortions and inefficiencies arising in the current system. It would enable a more rational and transparent allocation of public spending across the UK. Our priority going forward is to ensure, however, that the current funding formula delivers for Wales, and we will continue to make that case. In response to a previous answer, Sam, I made clear our satisfaction that the future of the sustainable farming scheme for Wales would not be affected by any of the changes within the UK budget. We made that clear representation and I'm glad it's been heard.

Inheritance tax is a reserved tax controlled by the UK Government and it applies across the UK. HMT figures suggest that most farms will be unaffected by the changes announced by the UK Government.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Just to follow through on some of the issues that have been raised this afternoon, it really is very interesting to hear you say that very few farms will be affected, because we do need those numbers, if that's your view. We need that backed up with evidence. I just want to say that while a £1 million threshold may seem substantial, Welsh family farms are often asset rich but cash poor. These families live modestly and work tirelessly on the same land, year after year, yet they are now facing an onslaught of financial pressures, two of which I learned about further in terms of the effect of the UK Government budget. From next April, work vehicles such as double-cab pick-up trucks, which our farmers depend on daily for transporting materials and equipment, will be reclassified for tax purposes. This change could see benefit-in-kind charges soar, with some farms facing an elevenfold increase annually. The introduction of the carbon border adjustment mechanism in 2027 will further add pressures on our farms. So, again, following through on some of the issues raised this afternoon, what assessment have you made of the impact on Welsh farms of these changes in the UK budget? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane, thank you very much. I'm at risk of repeating myself, but I do want to be really clear on this. Whilst the concerns about the impact of the changes are understandable, and there are a lot of people—a lot of individual farmers and their families—now looking at, 'Does this apply to me? What does it mean?' and so on, and I would strongly advise them to look at it properly, to look at the detail that's on the HMT website, and then work through it as well, and see if it does apply, actually speculating on the precise number of affected farms is not either helpful or in fact possible to arrive at a figure, because of the complexity of the issues that I talked about before. So, on that basis, we revert to the published HMT data. But I would say very strongly, and in your discussion with farmers in your area, if farmers are able to put forward alternative analyses or alternative data, they need to put those arguments to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

I would also be interested in seeing that as well, but the complexity of this, because of the value of the farms, the inheritance plans that they may or may not have, the ownership structures of different farms, whether applicable reliefs apply or not—. All of those things and more make it very difficult to arrive at one figure when individual farm businesses will make individual farm business decisions. But genuinely, I'd advise everybody to look at what it actually says on the HM Treasury site. Take advice, including, if you have individual financial advisers, from them, but also Farming Connect. And then, if the farming unions or others have an alternative analysis, put that to HM Treasury and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I'm willing to look at that as well, because what I do want to make sure is that we have the future viability, particularly as we're taking through the sustainable farming scheme. Hard work that that is, we are making good progress steadily, but I want to make sure that, with our focus there on small and medium-scale farms, long-term sustainability financially can be made to happen. So, I hope that helps in some way, but trying to narrow it down into one figure is going to be nigh impossible.

And finally, question 8, Heledd Fychan.

First of all, my heartfelt sympathies go out to all those affected by the recent flooding in Europe, particularly in Spain. The Welsh Government is taking steps to build more resilient communities as we combat the threat of climate change, and that's why this Government has now invested £60 million in South Wales Central since 2021, benefiting 2,800 properties.

Thank you for your response, Deputy First Minister. You will be aware from our recent visits to Clydach Terrace in Ynysybwl of the devastating impact of the 2020 floods. Luckily, no lives were lost, but we know that, in 2020, areas such as South Wales Central suffered three and a half to four months' worth of rain due to that storm. You only have to look at what happened in Spain to see a year's worth of rainfall in such a short space of time. Can I therefore ask what lessons you're taking from what's happening elsewhere to understand the potential impact here on communities in Wales, and also the assurances we can provide communities that were already devastated and concerned after 2020 but are watching the news now, knowing that they are at risk and their lives are at risk if a similar situation to storm Dennis happens, but are left asking, 'What if it's worse next time?'?

Thank you for that supplementary question and for the advocacy that you and Vikki and others have been doing on behalf of the residents. I think that's been very important. And thanks for the opportunity to meet with residents of Clydach Terrace as well, to try and explore ways forward for them, but also, you are right, to ask what have we learnt.

What we've learnt is this: way back into 2008 when the Cumbrian floods happened, when there was utter devastation through many of the towns of Cumbria, when it changed landscapes, it rerouted rivers, the power of that, what we saw then with the help of the Met Office was one of the early examples of not simply traumatic weather, but where that weather front moved over and stopped on top of a community. If you look now at what's happened tragically in Spain, it's a similar situation; in other parts of Europe, the same thing.

We had a presentation this week as part of the climate conversations from somebody senior in the Met Office who showed exactly that: what's changed is these fronts are holding over communities in almost an eddy above them, and then deluging those communities. That is important to note. Things are changing. It's not just the increased amount of water that is being dumped with climate change; it's that they're stopping in some places on top of communities. So, we do need to think creatively and we do need to think differently.

My thoughts are with those in Clydach Terrace and also many other communities, because what we're also finding now is communities who never thought they would be flooded are being flooded. Communities on tops of hills are being flooded in flash flooding. So, we need to anticipate this and prepare for this in the way that we go forward.

Can I just say, as well, thanks for the representations you and Vikki made in terms of the National Flood Forum? I heard at that meeting how important they are. I believe you may have had my letter now confirming that we've extended the funding to the National Flood Forum to work with the residents of Clydach Terrace for the remainder of this financial year. I think that will give some reassurance to them as well, because I know how useful the NFF have been in working with them.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. 

The next item will be topical questions. There are two questions that have been agreed today. The first is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

We sympathise with all those affected by the fire. We're engaged with policing and community safety partners on any broader issues impacting on the community relating to the incident. In response to the damage and disruption caused to businesses by the fire, Business Wales can provide post-fire recovery business support.

Thank you for that answer.

The fire that broke out in Abergavenny over the weekend has devastated a historic part of the town centre. I'd like to pay tribute to the emergency service response that ensured the safety of local residents and battled bravely to contain the blaze as much as possible. Once an investigation into the cause has been completed, attentions will turn to rebuilding the livelihoods of those affected. I'm also concerned at the impact the fire has had on the charity The Magic Cottage, which supports children and young people under the age of 25 with additional needs and chronic and life-limiting illnesses. They work across four counties—Monmouthshire, Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen and Powys. They've told the media that they lost absolutely everything in the fire, but, as a testament to the generosity of the public, The Magic Cottage has been inundated with more stock since the fire. They're now looking for new premises to store this stock. As an idea of scale, the shop in Abergavenny was about 10,000 sq ft of retail space, which is probably the biggest charity shop in Wales. So, Cabinet Secretary, what expertise, guidance and financial support can this Government provide to all those affected by the fire in Abergavenny, and what help can you provide to ensure that the disruption is kept to a minimum and that lives, businesses and the town centre and the work of this very important charity can get back on track as soon as possible? Diolch.

I'd very much like to associate myself with the comments from Peredur Owen Griffiths in relation to commending the work of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and, of course, the other emergency services and agencies, for their very swift and effective response. In relation to the support that can be provided, the Development Bank of Wales is available to support businesses that have been impacted and who may be able to benefit from the Wales micro loan fund that offers fast-tracked loans between £1,000 and £50,000. So, I would encourage any business in the first instance to make contact with the Business Wales helpline. They'll be able to provide some practical information and advice, or they could signpost on to relevant agencies and organisations who might be able to provide support.

They could also provide some signposting to a specific Business Wales adviser, who can help with some more detailed recovery plans as well. Those might include cash flow, liquidity and effects from disrupted trading. They might also be able to help them find alternative business space as well. That might be offices or warehouses, for example, to help the businesses continue trading and recover from the fire damage too. So, as I say, in the first instance, the calls should be to Business Wales, who can talk about the recovery support that's available.

Cabinet Secretary, like so many others around this Chamber, I was left devastated by the truly awful scenes that we saw unfold in Abergavenny on Sunday night. Understandably, the community has been left in complete shock, with homes lost, businesses destroyed and, obviously, as my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths said earlier, the Magic Cottage children's charity losing absolutely everything.

Presiding Officer, I'm incredibly grateful and thankful that there were no casualties, and I want to take this opportunity to thank the 100 plus firefighters who tackled the flames, and each and every single person who's played a part in supporting those affected. Abergavenny naturally has an incredible community spirit, and it's been a heartwarming exercise to see locals rally around and do what they can to help, including launching online fundraising efforts left, right and centre.

Cabinet Secretary, I do appreciate your previous answers to my colleague setting out the Welsh Government's position, because I believe we all do sincerely have an opportunity to help. So, I'd like to know what conversations Ministers, particularly yourself, have had with Monmouthshire County Council to ensure that they are in the best possible position to provide help and support. As you mentioned previously in your answer, there are various groups and organisations, but it is also imperative that we support businesses, especially in the run-up to Christmas. So, will the Government work with the key stakeholders, even the ones that you mentioned in your previous answer, to see what can be done to help those individuals and businesses truly bounce back? Thank you.

I'm very grateful for the question, and, again, for that recognition of the bravery of those responders who were at the scene, but also the generosity of spirit of the community, which has absolutely rallied around, as well, which is absolutely wonderful. The question specifically laid was in relation to business support, so, as I said, the key point of contact would be through Business Wales to explore with a Business Wales adviser what kind of plan can be put in place in terms of recovery from the incident. But in terms of those wider conversations, those would be led by other colleagues who have the responsibility for local government and also the fire and rescue service. But I just want to reassure colleagues that, as I said in my initial answer to the question, we are engaged with policing and community safety partners on those broader impacts in relation to the wider community.

Laura Anne Jones.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Cabinet Secretary, the recent fire in Abergavenny, as has already been said by my colleagues—and I concur with all the comments that have been made—had a devastating impact on the local community and local businesses there, including Cable News, a cherished establishment run by Paul Cable for over 30 years now, and the Magic Cottage charity shop, whose owners have worked tirelessly to support young people in need. So, I concur with the comments that have just been made and thank you for outlining what support you think can be available to them and others in rebuilding, and particularly in supporting those vulnerable groups in our community. As I'm sure you'll agree, this is of the utmost importance. And do you agree with me that one thing that we could do now is really work hard together, collectively, to ensure that people visit Abergavenny in the run-up to Christmas and support our local businesses?

Absolutely I would encourage people to visit Abergavenny in the run-up to Christmas, but actually all year round, because it is an absolutely beautiful place to visit—so many independent shops that you just wouldn't be able to find elsewhere. And it's absolutely somewhere that we would encourage people to visit for all kinds of reasons, but especially so now to experience some of that wonderful community spirit that your colleague Natasha mentioned in her contribution.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. The next topical question is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services and to be asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

The 50-day winter challenge identifies 10 best-practice initiatives to help people to stay well at home and leave hospital once clinical needs are met. It challenges both health and social care partners to target support on the 25 per cent of those patients with delayed discharges, putting plans in place to support them to return home.

I welcome the fact that the Government has belatedly recognised the need for a fresh approach to the long-standing problem of delayed hospital discharges, but I do worry that the substance of the plan leaves a lot to be desired. Firstly, it’s clear that it will largely be underpinned by existing rather than new resources. The regional integration fund, for example, was put in place back in April 2022, with the specific aim of better integrating health and social care. So, this begs the question: if it hasn’t been effective over the past two years, why should we expect different results now?

Secondly, it’s difficult to see where this fits in with Labour Government’s propensity for short-term sticking-plaster solutions, at the expense of a coherent overarching vision for transforming the NHS. It’s worth referencing the NHS Confederation's verdict in this respect: 

'Unless the broader challenges of demand and capacity across the whole health and care system are addressed, a 50-day challenge and action plan won’t be enough to achieve a sustainable health and care system in the long term.'

I share the NHS Confederation’s understandable scepticism at the potential of this plan to deliver in isolation. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with the NHS Confederation’s analysis?

Finally, as we’ve mentioned so often in relation to Welsh Government plans, there is a conspicuous absence of targets. So, I’d like to finish with a very simple question to the Cabinet Secretary: in September 2024, the latest reporting date, there were 1,596 delayed hospital discharges across Wales; what figure does he expect to see at the end of the 50-day challenge period?

I thank the Member for those questions. Perhaps I might suggest that the point at which to assess the success of this initiative is after it's completed rather than before it starts. But on the point that he puts specifically to me, this is an example of the approach that I've been advocating, as he knows, since I took on these responsibilities, which is to identify rapidly within the health and social care system those interventions that many parts of the system are already undertaking and that have had demonstrable success and making sure that those are identified and rapidly spread through the system. So, this is an example of that happening in action. Of the 10 things on the action list, most of them are already being taken forward in some parts of Wales. The challenge now is for services to be reconfigured so that all parts of Wales offer as many of those as possible.

He makes an important point about resourcing. In the discussions that we've had with both health board and local authority partners, there's been a recognition that the regional integration fund, together with the Further Faster fund and others, are in the system and are capable of being deployed to support some of these initiatives. Many of them are actually cost neutral and others involve the reallocation of existing resource. What is new here, I think, is the recognition of most effective interventions and the readiness to reconfigure services to reflect those in all health board areas. And I think that's been a challenge that partners have taken up with real commitment, actually, over the course of the last number of weeks. I'm afraid I didn't hear what the NHS Confederation had to say, but what I do know is that we work directly with their members, who are actually involved in delivering on the ground. And I'm grateful to them all, because they have engaged very constructively with us in relation to this work.

The Member I think was in the Chamber yesterday when the point was put to the First Minister about the target. Of course, she answered as I did in my initial question, that the support is aimed at 25 per cent of the longest waiters, and so that's roughly 350 people. So, this challenge is about putting new ways of working in place and targeting support on that 25 per cent, and making sure that as many as possible of those can be returned home. But, critically, the point here is to make sure that that success is sustained. It's important for those individuals to go home, but, actually, what we want to make sure is that delays come down across the system. And so actually making sure that that is sustained is important, so we are having conversations with partners during these 50 days about what resources might be required to make the intervention sustainable in the longer term. And that will be looked at in light of the experience over the coming weeks.

I'm grateful to Mabon ap Gwynfor for bringing this question to the Senedd here today. I'm grateful, Cabinet Secretary, for your response to Mabon ap Gwynfor just now as well. Also, I just wanted to put on record again my gratitude to those health and care workers who are now going to face the winter pressures and the challenges that face them. And we all know in this Chamber that they are doing their best, and want to do their best, to ensure that people are discharged at the most appropriate time, and, hopefully, for more people, that will be faster than it has been over recent years.

I heard your comments in terms of the elements within the 10-point plan, and I understand, Cabinet Secretary, that the desire here is to seek some consistency, not necessarily to reinvent the wheel across Wales. But I wonder if you could comment on which of those 10 points you think will make the biggest difference to this 50-day target that you've set. I think that would be helpful for us to understand the elements within that 10-point plan, and which would make the biggest difference. I'm also interested to understand where this 50-days number has come from, and whether you knocked around some other numbers as to which might be the most effective target to aim for—whether it's clinical evidence or the evidence you have to ensure that that 50-day target is something that is either achievable or realistic for health boards working with social care services to reach.

I agreed with Mabon ap Gwynfor's point around the risks of this being seen as a short-term moment. And, actually, what we do need to see, of course—and I think you would agree with this—is a longer term plan, to ensure that people aren't in hospital longer than they need to be. So, I'm interested to know, at the end of this target challenge that you've put in place—I think it runs up to the end of the year, which is what's been described—how those health boards, local authorities and others will be held accountable and supported to ensure that these discharges happen in a timely manner.

And my final question—sorry, Llywydd—is just understanding your expectation around the impact on waiting lists more broadly. Because of course this will, and should, create more capacity in our hospitals, to ensure that people are treated who are on existing waiting lists. I'm wondering, in your analysis, how you expect waiting lists to be reduced as a result of this 50-day challenge. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank Sam Rowlands for those questions. I think each of the 10 steps plays a different role, actually, in supporting the system overall. So, some are, if you like, hospital-based interventions. So, the integrated discharge service that the Minister for social care and I saw in action in Cardiff last week, but also works in other parts of Wales, is really about how existing resources can be co-located in a hospital setting, to make sure that the patient's journey, really, ideally, from the moment at which they cross the threshold or are admitted, is increasingly understood and responded to. So, there are some hospital-located interventions, if you like, and there are others in the plan, as he will have seen, which are really about making sure that, for example, we make greater use of care home and community beds for continuing healthcare assessments. Those don't have to then happen in a hospital setting. So, some of it is about the location in which the intervention takes place, but some of it is about, if you like, the underpinning support in the system for this range of interventions. So, a focus on reablement is critical in order for that to succeed. Whichever the interventions you put in place, they will all basically benefit from enhanced reablement. So, I think it's probably not that scientific to rank them; I think they play a different role in that sense.

Why 50 days? Well, we know that the period at which the NHS and care is under the most intense pressure is during the winter, and so it's 50 days between now and the end of the year, and typically we see the most intense pressures at the start of the new year. So, the period, if you like, is dictated by the timescale available. We've tried to project how many individuals we think it is reasonable to try and support within that context.

But the Member's last question, I think, in a way, is the most important. Critically, as I was saying to Mabon ap Gwynfor, what we want to see—. It's not a 50-day job-done approach, it's a 50-day period to put these provisions in place. And doing that successfully is what gives us the best chance of making sure that the benefits, both for individual patients and for the system, are sustained, which is obviously what we want to see. So, the 50-day period is, if you like, a period of intense working to put the new arrangements in place and help as many of that 25 per cent cohort as possible. But the success of this will be judged by whether that progress is maintained into the medium and longer term beyond that.

I'd like to ask you a specific question about my region, please, Cabinet Secretary. You may be aware that there is consultation in Rhondda Cynon Taf council at the moment about the potential closure of two care homes, Ferndale House and Cae Glas. I've had staff working at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital contact me concerned because there is a freeze on admissions to care homes whilst this consultation goes ahead, meaning that, because they're uncertain of the future of those, there are people who should be going to residential care homes that are currently in hospital beds. So, can I ask what discussions are taking place with local authorities in light of this announcement to ensure that consultations that are currently being held actually are reflecting the budgetary situation that we now know and won't actually worsen the situation? I spoke directly with residents in Ferndale House. They are fit and well, but not well enough to live at home. Many told me, directly themselves, that they feel that they wouldn't be alive now if they weren't in a care home. They'd tried being at home unsuccessfully and unfortunately that's not sustainable for them, and they're really concerned that a move from that home will kill them, that their only option will be to bedblock in a hospital, because there won't be care packages; they've had to sell their homes as well, there are no homes for them to return to. So, what conversations are you having with local authorities around this freeze now in taking cases and how that's going to be reflected in this 50-day challenge? 

I don't know the circumstances of the individual residents, naturally, as the Member would not expect me to, and I don't know where the consultations are in relation to the particular care homes, but what I can tell the Member is that Rhondda Cynon Taf council, as all councils, have been very, very fully engaged in the development and taking forward of these plans. The Minister for social care and I have met with each of the health board regions and the local authorities in partnership to discuss both their plans generally, but specifically in relation to the 50-day challenge, and part of the discussion has been around the availability and the capacity in the care home sector in each of those regions, so just to give the Member reassurance. There will obviously be, in different parts of Wales, a different underlying level of capacity and choices and decisions that are being made in the way that she describes examples in her own region. But just to give her the reassurance, all the data in relation to the availability of care home places is taken fully into account in the discussions that we've been having with our partners. 

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.  

Item 4 today is the 90-second statements, and the first is from Llyr Gruffydd. 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to use this opportunity to congratulate the young farmers of Wales clubs on their success in the young farmers’ eisteddfod, held in Carmarthen last week. A number of competitors came out on top, including some from my region in North Wales, in areas as diverse as the vocal ensemble, where Rhosybol Club in Anglesey took first prize, Hawys Grug from Clwyd won the youth solo, and Mared Edwards from Anglesey won the humorous recital competition.

Many congratulations also to Mared Fflur Jones from Anglesey, who won the chair, and to Elain Iorwerth, a Bangor University student, who won the crown. The resounding success of the eisteddfod again this year is a testament to the essential role that the organisation plays as a backbone of Welsh culture and the Welsh language.

Also, beyond Wales, success was enjoyed by the young farmers in the young farmers clubs British community awards held in Birmingham recently. One of the stars of the Uwchaled Young Farmers Club, Ceridwen Edwards, came top in the 'Heart of the YFC' category, where the judges were delighted with her energy and her tireless work for the club.

Another big winner that evening was Llangwyryfon Young Farmers Club in Ceredigion, which won the 'Community Spirit Award of the National Federation of Young Farmers Clubs', with praise given for the club's role in rescuing the local village hall, and their contribution to the viabilty of the Welsh language.

Young farmers clubs across Wales have 5,500 members, contributing more than a million voluntary work hours every year. So, let us celebrate all of these successes, and the invaluable contribution of the movement to communities across the country.

I have 90 seconds to mark the ninetieth anniversary since the miners' welfare hall was opened in Ystradgynlais. This wonderful hall was built from the miners’ pennies and cost them at the time £9,000. The opening ceremony was followed by a week of celebrations, including a grand production of 'The Bells of Beaulieu' by the Ystradgynlais Juvenile Operatic Society, produced by Mr Cynlais Davies.

Since 1934, the hall has gone through various transformations, and, today, is a vibrant arts centre and community hub. Sometimes, it’s also a radio station, sometimes it’s a tv studio. It has a cinema, showing all the latest films, and it hosts events like—wait for it—an Abba live tribute band, and has a variety of workshops and activities. It also boasts the Josef Herman Art Foundation Cymru, which is dedicated to promoting an appreciation of the life and work of Josef Herman, who has exhibited at the Tate Britain.

Indeed, the welfare hall is proud of the fact that it is one of the few welfare halls throughout the whole of the country that has retained its original purpose of being a place of culture and education. This hall is by and for the whole community of Ystradgynlais. Diolch to all of the staff and volunteers who have been there over the past 90 years, and we wish them well for the next 90 years. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eitem 5 heddiw yw’r ddadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg, 'A yw plant a phobl ifanc anabl yn cael mynediad cyfartal at addysg a gofal plant?' A galwaf ar Gadeirydd y pwyllgor i wneud y cynnig—Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. In spring 2023, the Children, Young People and Education Committee launched one of our most ambitious inquiries to date: a detailed exploration of the childcare and education experiences of disabled and neurodivergent children and their families. Our work covered early years and pre-school provision, including funding, staffing, and sufficiency. It covered breakfast clubs, after-school clubs and holiday provision.

We looked in detail at the school day itself—special schools, mainstream schools, extra-curricular activities and school buildings. We explored school funding, staffing arrangements, capacity, training, Welsh-medium provision and more. We also explored the impacts of inequitable provision on children and their families, whether families have the information they need, and whether they are listened to.

Over the course of our inquiry, we held 13 oral evidence sessions. We received over 80 separate pieces of written evidence, many of them directly from families. We visited five schools and three childcare and support settings. We bolstered our written evidence via correspondence with a range of different bodies.

Alongside this, the citizen engagement team held over 40 family interviews with parents, carers and children, and also young people from across Wales, on our behalf.

We established an online advisory group with over 15 parents, carers and young people. Their extensive personal experiences shaped and informed our work.

All this evidence and more fed into our report. It was a robust, comprehensive and thorough inquiry, and at the very heart were the very distressing personal experiences of many families, evidence that has certainly left an imprint on me, and I suspect on the other members of the committee, both past and present, who were involved in this inquiry.

I say all this to reinforce the weight of evidence that we received that underpins our findings, because we do not come to conclusions like those in this report lightly. We conclude in our report that a significant number of children and young people’s rights to an education are being currently breached in Wales. These children and young people are being fundamentally let down.

We conclude that denying children and young people their right to an education can have significant impacts on their emotional and mental well-being, as well as their physical health. It’s not just the child who has to live with these impacts, but also parents, carers, siblings, grandparents and other members of the family and wider community. Again, these impacts can be significant and lifelong.

Our report made 32 recommendations. There is not enough time to discuss them all today, so I will focus on the priorities of our online advisory group. As a committee, we have committed to doing what we can to listen to people with first-hand experience of the issues we are exploring, so it is fitting that people with lived experience shape the debate on this report. They are the experts on what actually happens in Wales, no matter what guidance documents, policy statements, or even what our laws say. So, what did they think of the Welsh Government’s response to our report? Here is a representative view from one member of the group:

‘I do not think the response acknowledges the size and seriousness of the issues for families, or that the issues are urgent. I do not see recognition of the difficulties that families are facing in the response, let alone the work required to address them.’

They have asked us to focus on some specific issues in today’s debate. Cabinet Secretary, I hope that you are able to respond to these concerns specifically in your response. While I acknowledge some of these issues extend beyond your education portfolio, as the Welsh Government representative responding to today’s debate, I would be grateful if you would speak on behalf of the Government on all issues today.

First, the lack of childcare provision for disabled and neurodivergent children. In the response to recommendation 4, the Welsh Government states that childcare provision is largely operated by private individuals or businesses, so local authorities are limited in what they can do to secure inclusive childcare for disabled and neurodivergent children. But there’s a major problem with this argument, as one member of our advisory group so clearly outlined:

‘The market has failed to provide a childcare service to families and there seem to be no policy proposals to address it.’

Cabinet Secretary, are the Welsh Government resigned to there being a substantial shortfall of sustainable, inclusive childcare, as the response suggests? Does the Welsh Government have a plan or intentions to develop a plan to increase inclusive childcare capacity?

Second, our recommendation 15, which calls for the Welsh Government to identify the most common conditions affecting disabled and neurodivergent children, and develop and roll out support for schools to help them respond to those conditions. The Welsh Government has rejected this recommendation, arguing that work is already under way in this area with the implementation of the Curriculum for Wales, but, as we all know, there is an important difference between curriculum content and curriculum delivery. It’s so important we focus our debate on how schools can deliver their curricula to disabled and neurodivergent learners, not how the curriculum enables schools to develop their own curriculum. As one of our advisory group members told us:

'Without understanding the differences in how those children learn, however much there is this new concept of a new curriculum, you're still delivering it in the same manner.'

We wholeheartedly agree. Cabinet Secretary, can you explain to us more clearly how you believe the Curriculum for Wales will help schools to understand and meet the needs of their disabled and neurodivergent learners?

Next, our recommendation 19. We called for the Welsh Government to commission the development of a mandatory training module for all school staff on disability awareness. You rejected this recommendation, arguing that voluntary engagement in professional learning is more effective than mandatory training. However, your response also acknowledges that the Welsh Government can and does promote professional learning in priority areas. Presumably, this means you could promote disability awareness training too, if you felt it was a priority. Cabinet Secretary, is disability awareness training for education staff a priority for the Welsh Government?

Finally, in a number of places the Welsh Government’s response appears to delegate responsibility for equity in childcare and education to local authorities. Here are a few examples. Recommendations 4, 10 and 32: these recommendations focused on gaps in childcare, local authority and school accessibility strategies and plans, and gaps in specialist teaching posts. Each of these were rejected, with responsibility thrown back to the local authorities. But, as our report so clearly sets out, local authorities are struggling to consistently provide equal access to childcare and education. Despite best efforts, using the finances, staff and resources available to them across Wales as a whole, local authorities are not providing equal access to childcare and education. What more will it take for the Welsh Government to step in to give local authorities the support they so clearly need, as outlined in our recommendations?

Cabinet Secretary, we welcome the acknowledgement in your response to our report that more must be done to ensure that children’s rights to an education are being upheld consistently across Wales. But we do not feel that your response commits to a step change in the pace and scale of the action required to do so. Our committee, like the online advisory group, worry that maybe you are not giving these issues the priority they deserve. Just this morning, I visited Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhondda to see their new ALN provision. There's absolutely no denying that education staff, like their childcare counterparts, are doing the best with what they've got. Committee members, as am I, are convinced that our education and childcare staff couldn't be doing any more. But I'm not convinced that the Welsh Government appreciates just how much work needs to be done to improve access to childcare and education for disabled and neurodivergent children, and I'm not convinced that this Welsh Government has demonstrated that it understands the urgency that the work requires.

I look forward to hearing your views and the views of Members across the Chamber over the course of today’s debate.

I'm pleased to be discussing some of the really important findings in this committee report this afternoon, and I'm keen to hear the Welsh Government's response to the report's conclusions, as the Chair of the CYPE Committee has already highlighted in her opening of the debate.

To begin with childcare, the report found that inclusive and accessible childcare provision is patchy, variable and, in some places, non-existent, and this immediately sets some children at a disadvantage from the earliest age. Childcare provision for all children is increasingly expensive, and places are sparse. So, for patients—parents, I should say, sorry—of neurodiverse children, places are even harder to find. The children's commissioner said that there is very little specialised early years provision and that the gap is widely acknowledged. The complexities of children's needs are increasing and, on an anecdotal basis, I visit many nurseries in my constituency in my capacity as shadow Minister for early years, and I always hear from nursery owners that children are presenting with more complex learning and behavioural issues that they are rarely equipped to deal with and that there is a lack of diagnostic support for children of that age.

This was also echoed in the report, which outlines that the committee heard from both families and stakeholders that securing inclusive childcare can be complicated, because needs are only just beginning to emerge, and it may only be once a child is in childcare that it becomes clear, and families then have to deal with waiting times for assessment. So, it's important that the Welsh Government lays out how it plans to remain responsive to changing trends in neurodiversity in Wales, and ensure that there is recognition that neurodivergent children need support.

Similarly to childcare provision, the report highlighted that, throughout Wales, inclusive provision is patchy and inconsistent; schools struggle with sufficient funding, staffing and expertise to deliver inclusive education. Of course, under the Equality Act 2010, schools are required to make reasonable adjustments for disabled pupils and the Welsh Government published statutory guidance back in 2018, with an aim to improve access to education.

The Children's Commissioner for Wales said that they are aware that the statutory requirement for schools to consult with children and young people on accessibility plans does not always happen, with Whizz Kids also highlighting that they are not routinely consulted. It's important, also, that the accessibility strategies and plans are evaluated and revised on a rolling three-year basis, and consider all aspects of education. Children themselves must be consulted and the rolling revision will ensure that strategies remain responsive to changing trends. So, I'm keen to know what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that statutory guidance is being followed, as, so often, people are told what they want to hear; the guidance is published and the results are never seen. There is no delivery or resources put into the delivery and implementation of the new guidance, therefore, it's essential that accessibility strategies are constantly revised, with consultation of children and young people and that the decision-making structures that allocate the resources are fully in sync with the requirements of pupils.

Given that it's Anti-Bullying Week, I would also like to draw attention to some of the barriers to education that disabled pupils face as a result of bullying, and the importance of pupil well-being. Shockingly, according to the Ambitions for Wales survey of over 10,000 children, young people and parents, just under 60 per cent of young people aged between 12 and 18 who identified as disabled report having experienced bullying. Professionals also identified disabled young people as being at the most risk of bullying, with over 17 per cent of disabled young people reporting that they never felt safe at school. This, of course, compounds the issue of educational accessibility, it exacerbates social isolation and results in poorer educational attainment.

We should accept that having a disability necessitates poorer educational outcomes and that every child deserves equal access to good-quality education, and it is important to recognise that the barriers are not always financial. The NASUWT—I'll put my teeth back in—told the committee that, sometimes, incidents are not labelled as bullying and therefore bullying strategies don't kick in. So, it's clear from the statistics that disabled pupils disproportionately experience bullying in schools and that better safeguards need to be implemented to identify the bullying sooner.

I'd like to know how the Welsh Government intends to ensure that guidance is being followed by schools, that disability strategies are frequently revised with routine consultation of children, and how the Welsh Government intends to improve safeguarding against bullying for disabled children and recognise the important role that mental well-being plays in the discussion surrounding barriers to a successful education. Thank you very much.

It is an honour to take part in this debate; it was an honour to be part of the committee whilst this inquiry was taking place. I'd like to pay tribute to the clerking team. I'd also like to pay tribute to all my fellow members of the committee, as well as everybody who engaged in this really important inquiry. It was moving. It was heartbreaking. It was uplifting, at times, to see some of the fantastic examples when children are properly supported and when their families are properly supported, how they thrive, how happy they are, how they go on to do brilliant things. But we have to acknowledge, when those failings are in place, how devastating those impacts can be.

I know that the clerking team, all Members, as well as those who gave of their time to this inquiry, didn't take the recommendations lightly. Honestly, we did try to make fewer recommendations; we did try to have a shorter report than this one. But the amount of evidence that we received meant that we had to include those important contributions and voices, and you only need to see, in terms of how many references there are, that we had so many written submissions as well. The visits really enriched our understanding. And when you think of some of the families, they gave of their time when they are struggling, and they gave of their time not just once, but on numerous occasions, to help advise us. My concern is what happens next, because when people give of their time so meaningfully and so honestly, they expect it to lead to change.

All of us know of the difficulties facing local authorities, the education sector and the Welsh Government, but we were told last week that austerity is over and that things are going to improve now. Obviously, there was some good news in the budget, but we need to acknowledge the scale of the issues, and I'm glad that the Chair did highlight some of those key challenges, because it is difficult to understand why some of the recommendations have been rejected by the Welsh Government. I would, again, urge, as the Chair of the committee did, in terms of recommendation 19, in terms of mandatory training—I would like to understand the Welsh Government's position on this and ask you to reconsider.

I, myself, because of the scale of casework that I receive as a regional Member relating to disabled children and young people, and their access, or not getting access, to education and childcare, decided to conduct a survey, which I then submitted as part of this work as information. The casework is still increasing, so even though we've done this work and engaged, the issues are still out there.

I also want to really highlight the problem that I think that we are going to see of those who have been traumatised by an education system that hasn't worked for them to date and have been lost from the education system, maybe at five years old or at six years old. They're currently—well, they're categorised as being home educated. They're not home educated; they've been failed by an education system and there is no support, because it's seen as a choice by parents. It's not a choice when schools have not been able to support their child, and if they've been traumatised by school. So, what is that ongoing support going to be for them whilst we are, hopefully, making sure that any child who enters the education system from now on will be properly supported and won't be traumatised by education? What about those children who have been traumatised because they haven't received the support they require?

Also, in terms of families, women are disproportionately impacted by the failings that are outlined in this report from not being able to work, and the impact, then, on the Welsh economy is profound. The lack of availability of childcare was something that I was really disappointed that some of the local authority representatives who spoke to us as a committee did not even acknowledge was a problem. You would have thought, hearing from them, that there was no issue here. Unless we acknowledge that there is an issue, we cannot put things right. So, I would urge the Cabinet Secretary, in her response, to focus on how we get that acknowledgement and true picture of what's happening on the ground, so that we can put that right, because if we do have very senior people in local authorities saying, 'There's not a problem', and we have people in tears telling us that they're suicidal because of the failings, something's not right and doesn't sit right with me.

Thank you for the committee's work. I'd like to hear from the Chair, in your closing remarks, how you're taking this work forward. I'm no longer on the committee. It's really important that we don't just listen, but act. We owe it to those who have given of their time to make sure that the changes outlined in this report and in these recommendations are implemented.

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate as Chair of the Petitions Committee. The committee wanted me to highlight some important petitions that we have recently considered, where the evidence from petitioners has helped to inform this inquiry. This includes five petitions relating to additional learning needs support and provision, and the reforms to the ALN code. We debated these issues on 8 May, and considered the petitions again at our meeting on 14 October. The details have been shared with the Cabinet Secretary. The sheer number of petitions and signatures highlights the strength of feeling that there is. Some of the petitioners have been able to engage with the committee, and the Cabinet Secretary and her officials, and that is, of course, very welcome.

Just last week, we met a petitioner supported by the National Deaf Children's Society. He was calling for more teachers of the deaf, and support for deaf children and their families and teachers. The petitioner is an experienced educator and parent to two deaf children, and she told us she was devastated at the Government’s rejection of recommendation 32 of this report. Recommendation 32 calls for the Welsh Government to set out a clear delivery plan for addressing gaps in specialist teaching posts for teachers of the deaf and teachers of the visually impaired, to ensure that all children and young people can access this support when needed. This delivery plan should have clear targets, deliverables and time frames, so it can be monitored and scrutinised. I promised the petitioner that I would raise it today. We ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education to look again at this recommendation, and we will also be writing to her soon with more detail on what the petitioners see as the way forward, having met with them last week. I note that the petition also has the full support of the Senedd’s cross-party group on deaf issues.

Our recent debate in the Chamber on access to cash for vulnerable adults also highlights how much work is still needed to guarantee that disabled people have the same rights of access as everyone else. We have made much progress, but the danger of regressing is real.

Bus transport and learner travel is another area of concern for petitioners. At our meeting on 4 November, we had updates on four petitions relating to transport for school children and bus transport more generally. The CYPE report contains three recommendations on learner travel: recommendations 21, 22 and 23, which are ensuring best practice, updating guidance and training for transport providers to provide better support for young people. There is a lot of work planned in this area, but the committee was keen that I highlight today how important these issues are, as set out in the Petitions Committee's 'Freedom to thrive: Free and accessible public transport for young people' report, which we debated in October.

Thank you for the opportunity to highlight these petitions as part of today’s debate. I just personally would like to say in the minute that’s left that I do understand, as previously I worked in local authorities, that we have had cuts to local authority budgets, there is increasing demand, that we need to look at the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, and I know that the cost of delivering transport for children has increased by 40 per cent. So, I do understand the backdrop of austerity that we have been facing, but I wanted to make sure that these points, on behalf of the Petitions Committee, were raised today. Thank you.

As a previous committee member myself, may I also start by thanking the clerk, all committee staff and all Members who have served on the committee, and have gone through all of this review, and, of course, our fantastic Chair, Buffy Williams, and former Chair, Jayne Bryant, who have been totally committed and invested in doing a thorough review of this? It was an honour to be a part and be instrumental in bringing this to the committee’s attention initially, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing a proper job on this. I just really hope that the Government will now listen to these, and perhaps revisit some of these recommendations that we’ve made as a committee—the current committee.

Support for children with additional learning needs is one of the most pressing issues affecting families in Wales today, and being part of this review, as has already been said, has been heartbreaking and enlightening. Despite years of calls for reform, the Welsh Government continues to fail these children and their families, leaving them to struggle without the necessary support or resources.

School staff are doing the best that they can with what they have, as has already been said by our Chair. It is disgraceful that so many teachers and teaching assistants still lack the basic standardised training on neurodiversity, let alone for specialised cases, like Angelman syndrome, which can often present themselves. This presents multiple problems, one being that, without being fully prepared to look after and be aware of the specific needs and behaviours that ALN learners could present, and without having an understanding of how to deal with them, these behaviours can often be wrongly diagnosed as bad behaviour.

A constituent only yesterday presented me with a case in a comprehensive school where the child was excluded because they shout out the answers in the classroom. His behaviour was seen as bad behaviour, but the child himself goes home crying every night because he's unable to stop himself doing so. And this is exactly the lower level ALN that's regrettably falling under the radar with this new—and don't get me wrong, very welcome—ALN Act. It is something that needs to be addressed urgently by this Welsh Government, as does the Act being interpreted 22 different ways by 22 local authorities, resulting in a postcode lottery of how ALN is being addressed across Wales.

The Welsh Government response to recommendation 7 is just not good enough. The findings of the review need to be presented before summer 2025. This is urgent. Otherwise, swathes more children will be affected by us not acting urgently on this. The variety of ways the ALN Act is being interpreted will continue to deepen those inequalities that ALN learners are presented with every day. The Welsh Government rejected recommendation 19, which called for mandatory disability awareness training for school staff. How can we expect inclusion when we don't equip our teachers with the skills to understand and support the children in their care? Recommendation 15 calls for universal provision for common conditions like dyslexia, which would have ensured that every school, regardless of location or resources, could provide support, yet the Welsh Government has rejected it. This is a missed opportunity to create fairness and consistency across the education system.

Recommendation 11 calls for practical guidance on the social model of disability in school. Without this crucial guidance, schools will be left to fend for themselves, resulting in inconsistent and inadequate approaches to inclusion. As well as the practical adaptations that need to be made in schools for physical disabilities, it is essential that adaptations for the deaf and blind become an absolute norm for schools across Wales, as most deaf children, for example, are educated in mainstream education. There is no deaf school in Wales. I'm glad you've accepted recommendation 12, but your response is quite weak. Teaching assistants are absolutely essential. Without them in the classroom, the teacher is having to deal with multiple children with multiple different needs, which is affecting the education of every child in that classroom. The struggles faced by families do not end at the school gates, of course, with travel problems often being a massive financial burden on families. Not only that, but parents are left with no option but to sacrifice their own careers and personal well-being to ensure their children receive a decent education.

The Welsh Government has failed to accept crucial recommendations here. We need a system that prioritises children, guarantees necessary support and ensures that no family is left behind. Inclusive education is not a luxury, it is a right, and therefore the Government needs to act on this. It is absolutely essential that there is faster identification of children and young people to prevent people missing out on the education that they deserve. Schools and nurseries need to be fully prepared to educate all those with all levels of ALN and other disabilities. Special schools, as we know, are bursting at the seams and no longer can accommodate all those that we normally would see in that setting. They are coming into mainstream education, so we need to accommodate that. I urge—

You need to conclude now, please.

I urge the Cabinet Secretary—sorry—to do everything she can, perhaps revisiting the recommendations, to make sure every child in Wales has the education they deserve, in whatever language they choose and wherever they choose. Thank you.

As always, I declare an interest as a father of a disabled child with additional learning needs, who will be in a special school and is currently in a resource base. So this is very much reflecting my own lived experience, but I do have some views that might diverge from some of the Members who have spoken so far.

First of all, let's put this in context. In the 1970s and 1980s, my daughter would have been in an institution, and she would have been in an institution for most of her early life. She would have spent the whole time there. It was the care in the community Act and subsequent Acts that led to the provision that we have today, and that has been built on and progressed. Sometimes it's not progressed fast enough, but the progress has been certainly made in ways that our young ALN children, autistic children, dyspraxic children are being treated better today than ever before. I think to take too much of a downbeat note on some of these things is to devalue the experience of those who suffered in the 1970s and 1980s. 

I admit I've been an absentee member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee for various reasons, not least a conflict of interest, and I am going to be leaving that committee, but I do think it's problematic to have 32 recommendations to the Government. I think that's too many. I think it sets the people we represent and the Government up to fail because resources are thin. If you try and spread those thin resources across so many recommendations, it's frankly inevitable that you will have recommendations rejected.

I can see one recommendation in there that would require massive resources on its own, and it's underpinned by the Cabinet Secretary's decision to engage in a review of the ALN Act. I think that in itself needs full resourcing, and I understand the Cabinet Secretary is holding meetings with the finance Minister presently. The finance Minister must commit the full Barnett consequentials to that ALN review to ensure that the ALN Act is fully developed and improved. But I can also understand why the Government would find it difficult to resource everything that the committee has demanded, and I suspect that committees that produce this number of recommendations will continue to find that problem in a one-hour debate.  

I'd like to look at recommendation 24:

'The Welsh Government undertakes further work to ensure a streamlining of services to deliver fully on a no wrong door approach across all public services, but with particular reference to the interaction between health and education services. This work should identify the barriers to effective coordination between services, as well as identifying best practice, and mechanisms for sharing this best practice.'

I'd like to say that I've been part of this 'no wrong door' approach in my constituency. As someone who is part of the autism community in my constituency, I've met with parents, I've held meetings at the Autistic Minds hub, and I am a member of the Sparrows ALN group where my children go to play, and through that I've met many parents who are parents of autistic children. I've found that there is a way to develop interactions between schools and health that can work, and I'd like to suggest to the Cabinet Secretary this approach. 

Within Caerphilly County Borough Council, Dr Sarah Ellis is the head of inclusion, so if someone comes to me and says, 'The school isn't working for my daughter or my son—we are not being treated correctly', I can go to Sarah Ellis and I can set up a meeting. She can intervene in the school on their behalf, and the trail doesn't end there. If there are further improvements that need to be made in the school, the school will make the improvements and will be able then to link up with the health service through my office. I think this is scalable, and it's scalable, I think, at minimal cost. Given that Caerphilly council is doing it, I think it can happen across authorities in Wales, and I'm happy to help the Cabinet Secretary develop a map of what might be done. But certainly, what is happening there is effective and that is the principle of no wrong door—you can enter at any point and make sure that your travel through the system is smooth, and you end up in the right place at the right time in the right circumstances. 

But fundamentally, this is one of resource; although I've tried to reduce the amount of resource I'm suggesting for that recommendation, this is one of resource. And if the review of the ALN Act and the resource that is required for the recommendations that have been accepted is not applied and is not considered by the finance Minister, then I fear we will find ourselves in a very difficult position. I wish the Cabinet Secretary every success in getting full funding for her department. 

I’d like to thank the Children, Young People and Education Committee for this important report. I was a member of the committee at the beginning of the inquiry, and I have been following the work throughout. I am Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on children's rights, and I believe that children's rights are at the heart of this report. Wales is proud of the fact that we lead the way in considering children's rights when creating policies. The adoption of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and its subsequent incorporation into the Rights of Children and Young People (Wales) Measure 2011, were progressive steps that sent out a clear signal that our nation is seeking to protect our youngest and most vulnerable citizens, not only from harm but also from being ignored, disregarded, and prevented from developing to their full potential. What I think is at the core of this voluminous report is that the Welsh Government is violating the rights of disabled children by not ensuring equal access to education and childcare, and that that is having a significant impact. 

The impact of all of this, of course, is hitting their families too. I'd like to thank one of my constituents, Betsan Gower Gallagher from the Swansea valley, for giving evidence to the committee about her experience as a mother of twins with autism. She said that her children were non-verbal, but that the inquiry had given them a voice. She described her endless struggle to obtain the support that her children are entitled to. I have seen with my own eyes the pressure and frustration that this is causing for Betsan, and I'd like to pay tribute to her and all the other witnesses who shared their experiences with the committee. Because they are exhausted from fighting, writing letters to people like us, to councils and officials, to schools, calling, e-mailing, waiting and being ignored or turned away. The committee heard time and time again that this ongoing struggle for basic rights was affecting their own health and their ability to work. Betsan was told by an official in the council that she should consider giving up work.

As chair of the cross-party group on human rights, I'd also like to draw specific attention to the fact that the right to education is not only a basic human right, but is also an essential means of reducing poverty and a means of enabling everyone to play a part in society. Without access to the same education and care, disabled children are significantly disadvantaged, with barriers placed before the choices that meet their needs and their aspirations as they become adults. What the committee revealed, in terms of a lack of access to suitable and inclusive childcare, has been confirmed and emphasised by evidence heard by the Equality and Social Justice Committee, during our second inquiry into childcare provision. The evidence is damning and heartbreaking. Our inquiry heard that the latest annual survey conducted by Coram Family and Childcare regarding the adequacy of local authority childcare showed that only 5 per cent of local authorities in Wales had enough childcare for children with disabilities in each area.

Recommendation 5 in particular echoes the conclusions of our report in the Equality and Social Justice Committee, namely the need for the Welsh Government to act in order to simplify the various funding streams available to childcare providers. Without taking robust action to create a system that is seamless, accessible and consistent throughout Wales, there will be no solution to the question of ensuring adequate provision. I'd like to echo what we heard from Carolyn Thomas in terms of recommendation 32. Guide Dogs Cymru is also very concerned that the Welsh Government has rejected that recommendation. They feel very strongly that the attainment gap that is being experienced by children and young people who are visually impaired needs a clear plan with targets set out, and it would then be possible to monitor and scrutinise that.

In its response to conclusion 1, the Welsh Government notes the expenditure that has been undertaken to support children with additional learning needs and to create new specialist provision. In finishing, I would like to note the response of one of my constituents, who has a son with autism, who e-mailed me about the Government's response to the report. 'My biggest concern', he said, 'is that the Welsh Government likes to throw large figures at the ALN programme, but as parents and people who are directly affected by the programme, we never see a detailed plan about how exactly that money is being spent, what are the outputs and how do they improve things. Has there been an evaluation yet of the progress made thus far, in order to offer hope and robust evidence to parents like me?' We have to listen to the voices of the families who are at the heart of this inquiry, and to the voice that has been given in this report, as Betsan Gower Gallagher said, to those children who have no voice. 

May I first of all add my thanks to the committee for its work, the committee membership and the clerking team, together with all those who gave evidence and were part of the exercise? I would like to focus my remarks particularly on children and young people with childhood-acquired brain injuries and a special interest group, N-ABLES, which seeks to raise awareness of these issues in education. They, in fact, conducted a survey exploring educators' understanding of childhood-acquired brain injury, and found a general lack of understanding and confidence surrounding the care and education of these children. They discovered training gaps among educators, not much content in initial teacher training courses, and a lack of understanding and confidence in terms of how you support these children, together with uncertainty around policy implementation within schools.

Thousands of children are affected by these conditions, and a significant proportion are moderate to severe, and very often these are hidden disabilities, and as a consequence, behaviour that comes from these injuries isn't seen in that light because the effects are often hidden, and then the reaction, the way that these problems are dealt with in schools, is not everything that it needs to be. There is cognitive, emotional and behavioural consequence from these injuries that impacts children's education and learning, and this often makes it difficult and frustrating for these pupils. They may demonstrate irritability, emotional reactivity, anxiety, depression, and difficulty with memory and attention and concentration spans. And, again, if these conditions aren't seen in the context of the injuries, then that is going to affect the way that teachers and other school staff deal with those issues. So, that lack of understanding from teachers in schools too often results in misinterpretation of the behaviours and those inappropriate responses.

So, in looking at all of that, Dirprwy Lywydd, N-ABLES have come forward with recommendations around improving training uptake in Wales to increase awareness and understanding in educational settings, ways of identifying support, training and resources that educators need to give them the confidence to meet the needs of children and young people with these acquired brain injuries, and also ways of sharing best practice to improve acquired brain injury policy implementation in schools.

So, I think that this is an important part of the overall picture when it comes to disability and education in our schools, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary, and indeed the Chair of the committee, to look at those particular aspects within the overall picture, because it is very, very important, obviously, for the children, young people and families affected.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the Children, Young People and Education Committee for their hard work over the course of this major inquiry? We all share the goal of ensuring the best start in life for our children. I want to particularly thank the parents, carers and children who spoke to the committee. The note of the discussions with parents made for sobering and distressing reading, and I am truly sorry that the families have had these experiences, and I say on behalf of the Government that it is not good enough.

My first paid job after leaving university was working with and for parents of disabled children. I heard then how hard they had to fight for the services and support they needed. It affected me deeply, and I want to acknowledge that not enough has changed for enough families. We can and we must do better.

The committee report makes five conclusions and 32 recommendations. It's impossible for me to do justice to them in eight minutes, but I'll try and cover as many points as I can, starting with the areas I am directly responsible for.

The successful implementation of our ALN reforms has been a top priority for me since coming into post in March. I know how hard everyone in schools, colleges and local authorities are working to deliver for children and young people, and I'm grateful to Heledd for her acknowledgement that it is working well for some children in Wales, though not for all children, and I recognise we have more work to do to get this right. 

I want the legislative framework to be clear and consistently understood. In response to evidence and concerns, including from the committee, that some parts are complex and unclear, I've already announced a review of the legislative framework. I confirm to the committee the scope of the review will be published shortly, and I'll provide an update on the findings of the review by summer 2025. And I am really pleased that we are asking the Education Tribunal for Wales to provide expert evidence to support this work.

And, Laura, you raised concerns about the timescales. This is a complex piece of work, and we have to get it right. And I would prefer to get it right than to rush it. But we are, at the same time, in parallel with this, taking action to improve implementation now, co-producing solutions with parents and delivery partners. I've agreed a comprehensive work plan with officials to address the concerns that have been raised. We've strengthened monitoring and support, including termly meetings with individual local authorities to drive delivery, and we are developing new national data sets and data collection mechanisms in education, local authorities and health, so that we can really drive forward the granular improvements we need. And I always hold in mind that when we are talking about data, we are in fact talking about individual children and families.

We have accepted most of the committee's recommendations on ALN. I welcome the committee's recommendation on strengthening the requirements around disability and ALN in initial teacher education. Just yesterday I met ITE partnerships in Wales to discuss how they can best equip tomorrow's teachers to support learners with ALN. But it's not just about ITE, it's vital our current workforce has a good understanding too, and we are developing new professional learning on child development, neurodivergence and well-being to support more inclusive environments, high-quality teaching and learning, and holistic practice. And we are following the evidence that teachers should be able to opt for that training, and encourage them to do that training, rather than make it compulsory.

We continue to invest in ALN, with over £107 million in revenue, and more than £170 million in capital since 2020, and we'll invest over £750 million over the next nine years in ALN capital provision. And we accepted the committee's recommendation on the school funding review. Our review of local authority funding formulae, which includes funding for ALN, is almost complete, and I'm happy to share information on this with the committee once it is completed.

I know that our education workforce is working incredibly hard to enable disabled children's access to education through our education reforms, including our new curriculm, which aims to break down barriers for all learners. And I do believe that the chair of the committee is misunderstanding the nature of Curriculum for Wales and the Government's response to that. This isn't just about schools developing their own curriculum, it is about them tailoring learning to individual learners, whatever they need, and working with them around their progression.

There is so much good practice to share, in both implementing inclusive culture and improving provision for ALN, and I am committed to personally driving forward ALN delivery. I want to support the good work that's happening in schools, and provide teaching and non-teaching staff with as much help as possible, which is why we are working with the Equality and Human Rights Commission on how we embed an understanding of the social model of disability in education services, and I will provide an update on our progress soon. But getting this right must be a cross-Government endeavour.

The action starts in the first 1,000 days, as the Minister for Children and Social Care is taking concrete steps to improve disabled children's lives through focusing on ensuring they have the best start in life. We are jointly responsible for developing and implementing our approach to early childhood play, learning and care. By working together, we're ensuring that babies and young children have opportunities to play, learn and develop.

I know that travel to and from school can be a barrier. I regularly meet with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales. He is committed to hosting a summit on learner transport, which I will attend, and I will ensure that the committee's recommendations are considered at that event.

A clear theme I hear is the challenges that exist around health and education working together. Again, I acknowledge we have more work to do as a Government. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is working to improve access to health and social care for disabled children, including taking action to address the gaps in allied health professionals across Wales.

Waiting times for ND assessments are too long. We have seen a 59 per cent increase in children and young people seeking assessment. As the FM made clear yesterday, we need to start doing things differently. On the back of the work the NHS exec has done looking at ND demand and capacity, we have a major service redesign event that is happening at the end of this month, with my colleague Sarah Murphy. This will lay the foundations to secure sustainable services to meet children's needs, and our ALN multicollaboration group, with health, education and local authorities, is developing key performance indicators so that we can see exactly where the barriers are for children and ensure they are broken down. And my colleague Jane Hutt is committed to delivering the disability rights action plan, co-produced with disabled people.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales has a long-standing commitment to children's rights. That commitment is something that means a great deal to me, and I really welcome the focus on children's rights in the committee report before us today. But rights on their own are not enough, they must be translated into action, into real tangible impacts on children and young people's lives. I know that too many children and families have been waiting too long for their rights to become action. Like them, I am impatient for change. As a Government, we will not stop until we get it right for all children and young people in Wales.

Chair of the committee to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank all Members for their contributions today, and the Cabinet Secretary for her response. Gareth mentioned the cost of childcare, and we heard, time and time again throughout this piece of work, how difficult it is to access childcare at any cost. As Heledd has said, every piece of evidence we received was important and needed to be included, and absolutely deserves to be in this report. And in our next steps we will definitely be reflecting on today's debate, and be assured we won't be letting this go.

Carolyn mentioned learner travel. This is something that came up consistently in the course of the report, bringing lots of issues in itself. Laura mentioned children being wrongly diagnosed. We heard this from parents who were desperate—desperate—for support. I had one parent who actually cried to me in a setting, saying that she didn't know how much more she could take. And Hefin—Hefin always speaks so passionately and eloquently about his lived experience, and we value his input. And you know I always listen when you speak, because I know that lived experience and how important and how difficult it's been and how much you've had to fight to make sure your daughter has exactly the education that she needs. I totally understand that, but we also know that there are parents who are not getting the right education for their children. Sioned was right in saying that children's rights were at the heart of this inquiry, and I'd also like to thank her constituent Betsan, who I've met on numerous occasions and who I think is an absolute warrior. And, John, the committee obviously agrees with your comments to upskill staff, and I'm sure the committee will take on board all of your comments.

Dirprwy Lywydd, our committee believes in inclusive childcare and education, where the needs of every child, whether disabled or not, neurodivergent or not, are met within the same establishment, where every child can participate fully in all aspects of school life. This is also the vision of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. But that vision is not the reality of where we are in Wales today. If we are honest, we would admit that we are far away from the realisation of that vision. Our inquiry has told us that, today, many families of disabled and neurodivergent children struggle to get good-quality provision. Our inquiry has told us that many families of disabled and neurodivergent children struggle to get any provision at all. Fundamentally, our inquiry has told us that many children and young people’s rights to an education are currently being breached.

I hope that the future of childcare and education in Wales will be more inclusive. That must be our long-term goal. But working towards a fully inclusive system does not preclude us from improving the availability and quality of the provision that already exists. It does not preclude us from taking steps right now to give all children the opportunities and support they deserve, and these changes need to happen now. Children and young people have such a short time in education. It can be very difficult also to repair the damage of unequal access, both educationally, but also mentally. Without a step change, we will continue to fail too many children, young people and their families. I know that the Cabinet Secretary, like us, as a former committee member, won’t want to be here in 20 years or 10 years having the same debate as a result of the same problems. But we’re concerned this will become the stark reality if this and future Welsh Governments proceed as you set out in your response to our report. Something fundamental has to change.

I’d like to thank again everyone who’s taken the time to contribute to this inquiry, the organisations who submitted evidence to us, the members of the public who sent us their personal stories, the people we met throughout our engagement activities, and, most of all, the members of our online advisory group, who took so much out time to support and guide our work. We know just precious your time is. Your passion, love and commitment to improving things, not just for your own children, but for all children, is inspiring. We were often told that they felt invisible, that people did not care. Today, I want to make it very clear that we do care.

I know that many people are disappointed with the Welsh Government’s response to our report. We share that disappointment. Like you, we will keep fighting for equal access to childcare and education throughout this Senedd and beyond, and I urge the Welsh Government, local authorities and others to do the same. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee’s report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 this afternoon is a debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee report, 'Restoration of opencast mining sites', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. This debate gives us an opportunity to reflect on Wales's complex relationship with coal. While the industry has historically brought some economic benefits to us, it has undoubtedly left deep scars on our landscapes and our communities. The closure of Ffos-y-fran at the end of last year marked the end of the latest chapter in this history. As Wales's last opencast mine site, it has been the subject of considerable public interest and is one of the main areas of focus in the committee's report.

As a committee, we visited the site last week and this gave us a better understanding of the issues that we discussed during the course of the inquiry. The one thing that I will take away from the experience, as will many members of the committee I'm sure, is an appreciation of the scale of the site. When it was fully operational, up to a million tonnes of coal was being moved every year from the site to Aberthaw and, later, to the steelworks in Port Talbot. I am grateful to the site operators for welcoming us on our visit.

Although a large part of our report covers the restoration of Ffos-y-fran, Members will know that the same story has been repeated at site after site in south Wales. In all of the cases that we looked at, the restoration work has fallen woefully short of what was promised. We have seen companies— sometimes the same company—repeatedly cut and run without keeping to their end of the bargain. Restoration failures have meant losses to the public purse amounting to hundreds of millions of pounds and this has had a significant impact on local residents as well.

Unfortunately, it is too late for many of the opencast sites covered in this report; the damage has already been done. So, we have tried to do two things in our report. First, we have looked back at the mistakes that have been made to make sure they aren't repeated and to try to help the local residents who are still living with the consequences. Secondly, our report looks to the future. With new opportunities and technologies coming to the fore, how can we ensure that the pattern of exploitation of local communities is not repeated?

So, what is the current situation? Well, first of all, I'd like to focus on what can be done in the here and now to help residents still living with these sites. Residents' groups and stakeholders identified a lack of clear accountability as one of the main problems they experienced in dealing with site operators, and public authorities as well. We were told by residents that they often felt that they were being passed from pillar to post.

Addressing the confusion over roles and responsibilities requires clear guidelines to clarify who's responsible for each aspect of the process. The Cabinet Secretary has accepted our recommendation on this issue, but I'm unsure whether he's engaged with the substance, maybe, of the recommendation. This is about the bodies involved refusing to take responsibility, particularly when things are going wrong, and I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary would expand maybe a little bit in his response to that.

Now, community engagement and transparency, of course, was another key issue for residents. We called for a specific officer in the local authority to be designated to work as a point of contact for the local community. We note from the Cabinet Secretary's response that the site operator should appoint a site liaison officer. Now, that's all well and good, but the site operators might not be the best placed for such a role, and are unlikely, let's be honest, to have the residents’ views at the forefront of their minds, in the same way, maybe, as the local authority should.

Our report also emphasised the need for community engagement, especially when restoration plans are being revised, as we've seen happen all too often. Communities near these sites understand the impacts better than anyone and should have a central role in restoration planning. This recommendation has been accepted in principle, but the response doesn't convince me. We know that a revised restoration plan will be necessary for Ffos-y-fran, and we will expect there to be public consultation on the proposals.

I'll focus briefly on Ffos-y-fran, which, as I mentioned earlier, formed a large part of our work. I should take this opportunity as well to note that Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council engaged constructively with the committee's work and has responded as well to the report, and we do appreciate that very much. I was pleased to see the council confirm that they expect the revised restoration scheme to reflect the objectives of the 2015 restoration plan. However, they note that some features like overburden mounds and a body of water will likely remain. They also confirm, in response to recommendation 22 in our report, that any water bodies on the site will be made safe and will provide community benefit. There'll also be a proposal for a motocross track.

This is exactly what many residents have feared. And they've been proven right, of course. The stark reality is that the council just finds itself over a barrel. There’s not much it can do, but I hope and expect the council to do the right thing and ensure that residents are consulted on any proposals that come forward in the coming months.

So, where do we go from here? Well, looking to the future, I am pleased that the Welsh Government, in response to our very first recommendation in the report, has confirmed that new coal extraction should only be approved under wholly exceptional circumstances. In his response, the Cabinet Secretary says that, once the Welsh Government's disused coal tips Bill has been implemented, the Welsh Government will focus on developing a more detailed strategic approach to mining and industrial legacy in Wales, which will include reclamation of disused tips and management of opencast mining.

I'm pleased to hear this, but, as is often the case, of course, I am concerned about the lack of urgency. We know that the problems in sites like Ffos-y-fran arose because regulators and the Government were too late to act. Throughout our report, we make recommendations to ensure that the mistakes experienced with so many of these sites are not repeated. This is particularly important in light of proposed new developments for coal tip remediation. In his response, therefore, this afternoon, I'd like the Cabinet Secretary to spend some time explaining to the Senedd whether he believes the policies in place are sufficient to address these concerns in the context of these new developments.

Finally, our report considers funding for coal tip remediation. I was pleased to note that £25 million has been allocated by the UK Government for coal tip remediation in the new UK Government's recent budget. It is unlikely to be sufficient, as we all know, but it is a start. And I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary would explain how he expects to progress this matter, because, in the wider scheme of things, £25 million is what it is, I suppose.

So, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of the contributors to the committee's report, particularly the residents' groups, whose experiences have been invaluable in helping our understanding of the issues. The list of sites documented in our report is long—Nant Helen, Margam, East Pit and Glan Lash, Selar, Tower, and finally, of course, Ffos-y-fran—and they have one thing in common: they are the sites of opencast mines, yes, where much was promised to the local communities, but, of course, in all cases, they fell short. So, we have to do all that we can to avoid repeating what has happened at these sites, and no more names should be added to that list. Diolch.

As has already been mentioned, our committee were very lucky last week to visit the Ffos-y-fran opencast mine above Merthyr Tydfil. This was an extremely informative and enjoyable visit, actually, where we were taken through the incredible work that is already ongoing to restore this opencast mine back to a site of historical value, but also one where there will be environmental benefits and biodiversity as well. My heartfelt thanks to Chris Barber, operations manager for Merthyr (South Wales), for hosting us at the site and to Jon Stoddard, the principal landscape architect from Richards, Moorhead and Laing Ltd, who are charged with undertaking these comprehensive works. Prior to that, it's fair to say that, during committee, we'd taken evidence, and I was very concerned when there was talk of pollution on the site, with the waters that had gathered in the pits that they've actually started to improve—the deep mines, I should say.

Mining some of the highest quality coal in the world, 11 million tonnes of this was carefully extracted since 2008 to provide cleaner coal for energy and steel making. The mine was closed after a nine-month extension was refused, resulting in the sad reality that Wales must now import impure and dirty coal from abroad, potentially causing more harm now to our environment than would otherwise have been done, should Ffos-y-fran have remained operational. However, when speaking on site, it's fair to say that we cannot go backwards now; it would simply cost too much to extract the amount of coal, to bring back all the equipment in to extract, so it's how well the site is restored. And again, as Llyr has said, it's important that the community is involved.

So, they need to restore the site. I understand that a figure of £15 million has been allocated by the company to do this. However, it's fair to say that the council, the UK Government and the Welsh Government need to be involved by supporting this project and working with the mine owners. Collaboration is key on sites like this. They agree on the importance of ensuring that policies relating to mining activities are robust and I'm glad to see the Welsh Government's response to our report reflecting on the acceptance of some of our primary recommendations. We need to ensure that these are robust, up-to-date and offer appropriate protections for local authorities and the communities, with the goal of preventing the negative impacts of opencast mining from being repeated. However, I'm disappointed to see that, in rejecting recommendation 4, this stops short of making the Coal Authority's best practice guidance recommendations into statutory requirements, ensuring that they themselves do not become financially responsible. Clearly, this is going to become a sticking point for many years to come. The UK's autumn budget has offered Wales a mere £25 million for coal tip safety—better than nothing—but nothing towards opencast restoration. In the grand scheme, it simply isn't enough.

The reclamation scheme at this one mine is expected to cost around £15 million, with the key objective of the scheme being to implement a progressive, cost-effective and sustainable restoration scheme. It will be interesting to see who signs this off. But I've seen first-hand the expertise and dedication of those carrying out these works, and they mean it with goodwill. What was fascinating for us as a committee was to learn that where they've actually done some of the remedial works, they're seeing great crested newts and other biodiversity; interesting new grasses are growing and, long term, there are peregrine falcons nesting there now.

I'd like to thank Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council for their response to our report. They have agreed, crucially, to recommendation 22, which concerns waste water. On this, I would just say that Ffos-y-fran made it clear to us that concerns over contaminated water being discharged were unwarranted. They have signed up to all of the Natural Resources Wales regulations and agreements. As we were told, they're not behind on anything, so maybe this should be seen as good practice when remediating these sites. This scheme has shown me that with the right people and with dedication, our opencast mines can be turned into new environments and new opportunities for flora and fauna to thrive.

You need to conclude now, please, Janet.

Yes. I thank the committee team once again—the clerk and everybody who set up the visit for us—because it really showed me a different perspective on some of the evidence that we'd taken during our committee findings. Thank you.

I'd like to start by expressing my thanks to the Chair of the committee, the clerking team and the research team for bringing this inquiry forward.

I'd also like to thank witnesses to our inquiry, in particular the individuals who spoke to us about how living near an opencast mining site has affected their lives. Chris and Alyson Austin and Sue and Owen Jordan gave powerful testimony, and I commend their ongoing commitment. Today's report shows clearly how communities like theirs have been let down, both by mining companies and public authorities, and left to deal with the environmental scars and broken promises of opencast coal mining.

The report's recommendations paint a clear picture of what must change, and I'll highlight some of the main issues. Recommendation 8 highlights the need to clarify the responsibilities that local authorities, NRW and the Coal Authority have in the restoration process. The Ffos-y-fran debacle has revealed confused and overlapping responsibilities among those bodies. It has meant that those living near the mine are not the only people left starting into a void. There is a void, as well, an absence of clear accountability structures. I'd like the Cabinet Secretary, please, to outline what the Government will do to address that, to ensure that accountability isn't merely clarified, but enforced.

Recommendation 1 calls for the Government's policies on opencast coal mining to be robust and to provide genuine protections for local communities. The continued mining at Ffos-y-fran after the licence expired shows how urgently stronger enforcement is needed. Recommendation 21 specifically proposes stronger enforcement mechanisms to tackle breaches of planning control. That is essential.

There is a significant risk, in the background to all of this, of how history might be repeated because of Government loopholes. Recommendation 3 calls for the Welsh Government to clarify the criteria for when it will allow coal extraction under 'wholly exceptional circumstances'. This rather vague, open-ended standard has enabled deeply damaging projects to proceed largely unchecked. I wonder whether the Cabinet Secretary could set out how the Government plans to make those criteria more stringent, and I'd go further: I'd argue that coal extraction goes against our declarations of a climate and nature emergency—it should be a thing of the past.

Recommendation 26 calls for systemic changes to prevent similar issues happening in the future, including in relation to coal tip reclamation sites. Now, in its response to this, the Welsh Government claims, and I'm quoting here:

'development proposals will only be approved in wholly exceptional circumstances. There will therefore be very few schemes being brought forward'.

I would counter that it's just overseen 640,000 tonnes of illicit coal extraction; another application has been made to extend Glan Lash opencast coal mine; and an application that will involve mining two of the coal tips at Bedwas is expected this month. If that is what is meant by 'very few schemes'—[Interruption.]—after this, I will, yes—we must have wholly different views of how this world should work. What we need, as the Coal Action Network, Climate Cymru and others have been saying, is a stronger, clearer position against continued coal extraction in Wales. And I will take the intervention.

I'm not sure I share Janet Finch-Saunders's rosy view of the Ffos-y-fran situation, but I'd also say that the proposed project at Bedwas is not to extract any coal from the ground; it's only to take what lies on the surface. I think that's an important distinction.

Thank you for that, Hefin. We are not in this report trying to claim that what is being proposed, for example, in Bedwas, is the same as Ffos-y-fran. It's almost the danger that it could lead to coal extraction almost by stealth, even if it's not the intended purpose. That in order to finance private coal tip reclamation work, that that would be the way that it's financed, which would mean that, through the backdoor, we continue with coal extraction, which is why I'd argue that Westminster needs to be paying—

I'll respond to that point in my speech.

—in full. I'm sure you will. But Westminster needs to be paying for this in full, because it shouldn't be for private companies to do that, because it will be at the expense of our environment, yet again. I'd ask the Cabinet Secretary if he will finally take the necessary steps to close those loopholes in our policy.

There are other recommendations that I don't have time to deal with in depth in relation to transparency, to help residents access information more readily, to do with community involvement. Recommendation 7 calls for an independent review of how much funding is required for opencast site restoration. That is surely essential for us to understand the true scale of what's needed to repair the damage done. As the Cadeirydd has said, it is too late to prevent what's happened at sites like Ffos-y-fran; it should not be too late though to ensure that communities don't lose out on tens of millions of pounds' worth of restoration.

I would take this opportunity to ask whether the Cabinet Secretary is aware if any independent investigation has taken place, and to whether Merthyr (South Wales) Ltd can afford to fund the full agreed original restoration plan. I haven't seen any such evidence. I'd welcome a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary to discuss that further, please, for the sake of those affected communities. 

This report—and I'll say this in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd—should not be allowed to gather dust. It must mark a moment when things change, for the sake of our planet, our communities and the lives of the people we live alongside. We need change, and urgently. 

I thank Delyth Jewell for that very constructive answer to my intervention, and I'll come to it in a second. It's worth noting that data published last year by the Welsh Government identified six category D disused coal tips in my constituency—those are the highest risk. But it's also worth emphasising that that means that they aren't at any immediate risk of slippage. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary would want to make that point as well.

But the tips above Bedwas and Trethomas have been a concern to the local community. There was a proposal with the Plaid Cymru-led council to build on those tip areas, and I think there was a lot of outcry then, at that point, and it never came to fruition, which was probably the right thing. But this company called ERI Reclamation has submitted a proposal to Caerphilly County Borough Council to restore the site and use the coal only from the surface of the tip that's removed—only from the surface, from the tip—to fund the project, and make a profit from that as well, but they will not be permitted to extract any coal from the ground. I think the point you made was that that needs to be very carefully policed, because what happened in Ffos-y-fran went wrong, didn't it? I totally share your view that the opportunity for things to go wrong could happen, and therefore it needs very serious control.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

So, what concerns me with Ffos-y-fran and with that proposal is that they haven't got funding to restore, and, at Ffos-y-fran as well, they're looking to use money from the escrow account—£15 million—and not put any money in themselves from that business, and it worries me that that again might happen. So, they'll do the work, extract the coal, but then there won't be money to restore at the end of it.

Okay. So, in response to that, I've questioned ERI very carefully, and so has the Caerphilly Observer as well. The Caerphilly Observer initially took quite a sceptical approach, but following links and discussions with ERI, they're starting to feel more positive about it. And ERI have told us that they will remediate the land as they go along, so it isn't something where they extract the coal, you see black tips on the countryside, and then in five years' time they start remediating. The remediation process happens as they move along. So, initially, they plant fast-growing grass over the areas that they're remediating, and then once they've moved down to the next tip, they plant over that longer growing grass, longer term grass, which is part of that process.

One thing I'd add with that is that, if you gave unlimited money to the public sector to do this work, they would still have to contract it out, so they'd still have to find a contractor because the public sector wouldn't have the resources themselves to remediate a tip in a professional and professionally certified and competent way. So, you'd have to give that work to someone, some private company, to do it, and there is no reason to suspect that anything different in terms of the restrictions and licensing might happen in those circumstances. There's also something you might expect, that if the public sector were told by the company, ‘We can save money if you let us sell on this extracted coal’, then they would say, ‘Yes, if that’s a saving to the public purse, then we'll take that.’

Would you agree with the principle, though, that because the legacy of coal mining—and I realise that we're straying a little bit here outside the strict confines of this report, but it is very related—the legacy of mining predates devolution, and so it should be for Westminster to be funding this, and we are left in this position where we're having to think, ‘Oh God, shall we trust this company?’ It's not against that company individually, it's just we shouldn't have to be in this position at all.

Absolutely, I completely agree, particularly with the point that it's pre devolution, and it's not for the Welsh Government to be spending this money. I absolutely agree with that. But one of the things I'd also add, to emphasise the point, is that there isn't a public sector company set up that would be able to do this work at this point in time. I think you'd have to have—. You'd either establish a nationalised company or you'd have to contract out to a company to do the work, and I think that's something that hasn't really been considered in some of the debate. I think the safeguards that the committee is calling for are really helpful in when that work is done. I think that would be very, very significant, and I've noticed that the Welsh Government has actually accepted the recommendations on that, particularly with regard to MTAN 2.

So, I think that there's a significant issue around what we expect. The disruption that would happen to communities on either side of the mountain as a result of public sector work would be almost identical, perhaps other than coal washing, if it wasn't going to happen—. It would be almost identical to that which would happen when private contractors carry out the work. So, I think it would be misleading to suggest that the public sector would be able to carry out everything in a more sympathetic way than the private sector. I just don't think that's a realistic option. Therefore, as I said last week in another debate, and I’ve spoken in so many debates now I can't remember which one, but as I said in a debate last week, I am not averse to having a private partnership with the public sector to develop these things, providing, as you know, Delyth Jewell, those safeguards are in place. And I think the planning process at this point in time is where those safeguards lie.

I would like to thank the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee for conducting their focused inquiry into the restoration of former opencast mines. This is an issue that resonates with my constituents, although much of the focus has been on Ffos-y-fran. Residents in Merthyr are not alone in worrying about the legacy of opencast mining. I recall raising the restoration of both East Pit and Margam opencast sites when I was first elected in 2015, 10 years ago. Yet here we are, a decade later, and these sites are still causing great concern to residents living near the sites, particularly about the 40 million cu m of water that has filled the void at East Pit. Residents fear allowing such a huge volume of water in the geologically unstable region places their homes, even their lives, at risk. So, while I commend the committee for undertaking this inquiry, I'm disappointed that other communities across the south Wales coalfield did not receive the same consideration as those living in the shadow of Ffos-y-fran. Recommendations 21 to 26 apply equally to the East Pit and Margam sites. I would therefore ask that the Cabinet Secretary addresses these issues when they respond to this debate. Diolch yn fawr. 

I very much welcome the committee's report and its robust recommendations around reclamation and remediation in Wales, as we forge a progressive path towards a low-carbon future. And as the Labour representative of this area in Islwyn, I stand firmly in support of our world-leading climate targets. Tackling the climate crisis is not just a policy goal—it's a moral imperative, and the challenge of all of us in this era. 

Today's debate is particularly important for the communities that I represent in Cwmfelinfach, Ynysddu and across Islwyn where the legacy of coal mining has a long reach, and an industrial health legacy of which I carry my own mining family's lung condition. The environmental impacts, however, of opencast mining are well documented—dust, pollution, noise and habitat loss directly affect the health and well-being of our residents, who rightly expect their communities to be protected. These issues are especially pronounced today in areas like Cwmfelinfach and Ynysddu where today local residents live with the consequences of past extraction activities, and who remain acutely aware of the need for sustainable practices moving forward. 

The remediation of the Bedwas tip is a challenging undertaking. The current proposed remediation plans predicated on surface coal extraction would require multiple HGV articulated lorry movements. It's stated by the developers themselves that there would be 10 per hour for up to 10 years throughout the Sirhowy country park, thus disrupting a treasured natural space and impacting nearby communities along that route. The general diminishment of leisure centres means that country parks are even more critical for health and well-being in communities. As the representative for these areas, I am obviously concerned about any environmental damage that remediation work could cause, from soil and air pollution to noise disturbance that will impact wildlife and diminish the quality of life for residents. The people of Cwmfelinfach and Ynysddu already carry the weight of Wales's mining history. These communities wear the scars of years of mining activities and the long-term consequences to their health and environment. 

Remediation has to be a solution that causes less damage and risk and not more, a solution that benefits our landscape and not cause it further harm. This important committee report highlights clearly the devastating impact on communities when things go wrong and companies are allowed to continue with unfair and illegal practices at mining sites. Yes, residents in Islwyn are right to be concerned about precedent in proposed remediation with coal extraction predication. It is critical in Islwyn that the COVID memorial wood where the then First Minister, Mark Drakeford, planted the first tree must be maintained for the community alongside access to the thriving Ynys Hywel community farm in a very special and unique landscape of such importance to my communities. I've visited many times the Sirhowy country park and met many times with residents, environmentalists and ecologists who all want the best for the park and surrounding areas. They, like me, are passionate and determined in wanting to protect this wonderful area of wildlife, nature and well-being. 

The committee's report recommends that the Welsh Government must consider making a degree of community ownership a requirement for opencast sites and similar developments, including coal tip reclamation sites. Community ownership would allow passionate and knowledgeable local voices access to be heard properly in a reclamation process. So, I urge the Welsh Government to positively consider this recommendation.

Finally, recommendation 1 of the committee's report states:

'The Welsh Government must ensure that policies regarding opencast coal mining and other mining activities are robust, up-to-date, and provide appropriate protections for local authorities and communities'.

I urge the Welsh Government to listen to residents, understand the full impacts of coal and aggregate reclamation and remediation, and ensure we do not have any repeats of Ffos-y-fran in Islwyn and Caerphilly. Diolch.

I too would like to share my thanks to members of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee for their work in delivering this essential report, and I would like to echo what Delyth Jewell said, that I think that this should mark a turning point. This is a matter of utmost importance to many of my constituents. I'd like to associate myself with the calls made by Altaf Hussain regarding East Pit and Margam, because since being elected, I have received regular correspondence from, and been in frequent dialogue with, groups of residents in Cwmllynfell and Tairgwaith regarding the concerns about East Pit. I've shared these concerns in previous debates on this, and related matters, asked questions to relevant Members of the Government, and some of these residents were able to give evidence to the committee.

I think it's just worth reiterating the situation there. The plan was to progressively fill the void left by the opencast mine, as operations wound up, but then those plans were scrapped in favour of an elaborate restoration plan that would include a leisure resort. The Chair talked about these plans changing frequently. Over 10 years has passed since those plans were unveiled, and I can assure you there's been little movement on that front. Extensions to mining operations had been provided, but in more recent years, operations ceased and then the void began to fill with water. It's now filled with some 40 million cu m of water—a large body of water sitting 150m above the valley floor, no constructed dam to retain the water. And I should say, as we heard from Altaf Hussain, this area has an active earthquake fault, with an earthquake measuring 4.6 on the Richter scale occurring in 2018.

This isn't just a historic scar of former industrial works, because it is a wound that is still very much open, causing pain and anxiety for so many in the surrounding communities. And to echo language in the report, opencast mines provided enormous benefits to private companies at the expense of public authorities and communities. The companies first made their profits, then made their promises, but when it came time to fulfil their obligations, they made their exit. And now, for the residents who are left with what remains, no clear path exists to them to seek assurances. They've approached various public bodies, asking that surveys and reports from qualified indemnified chartered engineers and hydrologists are undertaken, but, and I quote one of my constituents, they feel 'passed from pillar to post with nobody willing to accept responsibility'. That's why, as the report recommends, it's so essential that the responsibilities of all relevant bodies be clarified, proper engagement takes place, to ensure that all necessary safety concerns are properly and independently assessed, and that appropriate measures are fully funded and then undertaken swiftly.

In its response to recommendation 6, which calls on the Welsh Government to engage with the UK Government and local government to determine how to address the funding shortfall for site restoration, the Government states its position that it needs a sustained programme of investment to make sites safe and sustainable for the future, and that the UK Government must contribute to a long-term reclamation programme.

'With two Labour governments working together',

it states,

'there is now an opportunity to develop a shared UK and Welsh Government plan.'

A start was made in the recent UK budget, with £25 million allocated, so will funding an independent assessment of the safety of the water-filled void at East Pit be able to be found from this initial funding? As I've stated before, it's a matter of deep historical and social justice should these communities that gave so much be asked to continue to bear the brunt of environmental hazards and safety risks. It's essential we listen to the voices of the affected communities in finding solutions that prioritise their safety and well-being, because they've simply been fobbed off for too long. The former climate change Minister said to me, in a debate on this topic, that

'It is the moral responsibility of the UK Government to remediate the legacy of the industrial heritage of the whole of the UK.'

If the Welsh Government believes that the new UK Government has accepted that responsibility, then the people of Cwmllynfell and Tairgwaith must see long-needed and much-deserved fairness and justice in action. Diolch.

I'm very pleased to have joined the committee in time to be part of this inquiry, although I wasn't present for all the sessions. The committee Chair, at the beginning, in his introduction, referred to the complex relationship in south Wales with coal. I think, if you were born in south Wales, it's very likely that you've got someone in the family who's got a big contact with mining, with coal, or there's some history related to coal. Rhianon referred to it in her contribution, and in my own case my grandfather was a miner in Senghenydd and miraculously not at work when the explosion happened. But it was a well-told tale in my family how the pictures on the mantelpiece shook when the explosion happened, and that was the first thing that the family knew about it.

And, of course, for many years, the people who lost their lives were not mentioned because of the collective trauma experienced by the whole community, and I think it's important to remember the huge sense of community that has always been there in mining communities. The fact that we do not want coal to be used any more, we do not want to extract coal, is a huge change in the make-up of south Wales, and I think it's important to remember that. Because by 1913, a third of people working in Wales worked in the coal mines and there was this great sense of community and culture in the region, and I think it's important to continue to remember the impact that the closure of mines still has on communities today.

I certainly felt that coal did bring wealth to south Wales, but we also know the huge damages of using fossil fuels, so we have to make this change, which is very difficult to make but is absolutely crucial for all our futures. We all saw the scars left by opencast mining sites, as we saw last week when the committee visited Ffos-y-fran. I must say that this visit did have a huge impact on me, and I'm sure it did on the other members of the committee who went. I've really never seen anything like the scale of the destruction. The scale was absolutely enormous. It really felt like we were at the end of the world, it almost felt, and made much more dramatic by the thick mist and fog that came down as we were able to look down at the voids that the company acknowledged that they will not be able to remove. They told us about what they were planning to do in terms of making it safer and putting up barriers, but there's no doubt that they are saying that they will not be able to restore the area to what it was before. And looking at it, it's hard to imagine how it could be restored, I have to say.

That's why I think recommendation 3 of the report is so important, because the closure of Ffos-y-fran should be the end of an era, but 'Planning Policy Wales' does still say that coal extraction can be permitted, in wholly exceptional circumstances, I know, but where the proposals demonstrate why they are needed in the context of climate change emission reduction targets, and for reasons of national energy security. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation in principle, because these are very broad criteria and should be clarified and should be sharpened, because we do not want to leave any opportunity for more coal mines and for anything developing coal to be left there in the future.

I think this is a very important report. I think it highlights the steps that need to be taken in order to secure the sites. We need to hold the companies to account and to follow their agreements. I particularly welcome the tightening up of the guidance, and also more support for the affected local communities. We had evidence given to us by people living in the area, local communities, and I think it's absolutely essential that any restoration plans fully involve the local communities, and I don't see that that's happening. From what I've seen, I do not see that that is happening, so I think there has to be a really great effort to ensure that people who have really suffered through these developments are involved in the future planning. I support calls for stronger enforcement mechanisms in cases where breaches of planning controls have occurred, and I look forward very much to hearing the Government response to these recommendations.

I now call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee for their work in producing this comprehensive report on the restoration of opencast sites, and to everyone who contributed during the evidence gathering. Wales is proud of its coal-mining heritage, but it's crucial now that we have a structured means of dealing with the sites that are left behind. Our immediate task is to ensure that we have the infrastructure in place to ensure that coal tips are safe and are not a threat to communities.

Now, that work has already started, Dirprwy Lywydd, and it is progressing well. The next stage after this will be to develop o long-term plan to restore those sites so that they are useful to the people of Wales, and that includes common land, environmentally diverse sites, where unique wildlife can thrive, or as part of a wider plan for economic growth. And this approach, indeed, Dirprwy Lywydd, must include sites such as the Margam site, which is in both of our constituencies.

As outlined in the committee's report, this work stems from concern around the Ffos-y-fran land reclamation scheme. Welsh Government remains in regular contact with the local authority and with partner organisations. We've been clear throughout that the safeguarding and the restoration of the site remains our objective, alongside our wish to see full restoration of the site in line with existing planning permission.

Welsh Government has indeed carefully reviewed the 22 recommendations presented in the report that are directed at us. Now, it's not for Welsh Government to comment on the remaining four recommendations, which were directed at Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, but I note that the debate motion acknowledges their own response, as well as the response from Swansea residents.

In terms of the Welsh Government recommendations, I am pleased that we have accepted or accepted in principle 14 of the 22 recommendations. Members will also be aware of the eight recommendations Welsh Government rejected. The rationale for each response to all 22 recommendations, both accept and reject, is set out in detail in our formal response document, which is publicly available on the committee website. With that in mind, I will focus my response today on the key themes that cut across the report and Welsh Government response, and many of them have been raised by Members. Before I continue, it is worth highlighting that whilst I'm responding to this debate on behalf of Welsh Government today, the strategic responsibility for this work sits across several Cabinet Secretary portfolios, and not least the portfolio of my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Economy and Planning.

The first clear theme emerging from the committee's report is the need for greater clarity around the policies and the processes associated with opencast restoration. Now, there is no single restoration policy for all of these sites. Rather, restoration is the culmination of several intersecting policies and processes and systems, which have to work together. So, for example, our coal policy makes clear that Welsh Government's objective is to stop the extraction and the consumption of coal. However, we also have a duty to manage the safe closure and restoration of existing and historic mining infrastructure. Therefore, coal extraction may be needed in wholly exceptional circumstances, and each proposal will be decided on its own merits. But let me be clear, the presumption will always be against coal extraction in the first instance. Meanwhile, our policy around coal-tip reclamation continues to centre around turning disused tips into beneficial assets for communities through a tailored tip-by-tip approach.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, indeed.

Thank you. So, the problem has been: who actually will enforce the restoration as well? The cost isn't always funded because money has not been put aside, the money in the escrow account is not enough. And then NRW, the local authority, the Coal Authority—they pass the buck every time, because they haven't got the resources either themselves to enforce. So, that is the issue going forward.

Carolyn, thank you for that. I genuinely appreciate that, out there in the wider world, it can look confusing and complex, and the truth is, it is complex, because there are overlapping responsibilities. But to be very, very clear, local planning authorities monitor the restoration. The Coal Authority manages the coal resources under its control, and NRW issues the permissions and the licences. So, there’s clear line of sight, but there are different agencies dealing with different aspects.

Let me just return to my comments. More broadly, both the coal policy and the coal-tip reclamation policy must be cognisant of the planning system, and there are several pieces of planning guidance to which local planning authorities must always adhere. Now, these guidance documents are kept under continual review, and this is why Welsh Government rejected recommendation 4 in the Coal Authority's best practice guidance, and recommendation 14 on the minerals technical advice note. The point on clarity of responsibilities was an emerging theme that has just been raised by Carolyn, and ultimately we have got to make clear that the operator and landowner is responsible for the restoration and the aftercare of these opencast sites. But others have responsibility for monitoring and so on. Now, they must also ensure that sufficient finance is set aside to enable them to meet the restoration and the aftercare obligations. Delyth.

Thank you very much for that, Cabinet Secretary. Would you recognise that although—? I appreciate you setting out where the different responsibilities are for these different bodies. Do you recognise that even between those different bodies, because there are areas of overlap, that the danger always is—and it's realised as well—that the buck is passed and so, ultimately, when something goes so terribly wrong, like with Ffos-y-fran, it's not clear who steps in and says, 'Right, we're not going to allow this void to fill with water now'?

Indeed. And that, Delyth, very much on that point, is why we accepted recommendation 8 to clarify the respective roles of local authorities, the Coal Authority and Natural Resources Wales, and we've set that out in detail in the response document. So, even though there are clear responsibilities, we're very minded to actually clarify where those roles are.

Now, these public authorities must also engage with local communities through the restoration process, and we do recognise that a designated liaison officer could be beneficial to fulfil this duty, as detailed in recommendation 18. We also encourage public participation through all stages of the planning process, but the legislation does not enable us to mandate participation. However, it's important to clarify—a point that was raised earlier in the debate—that this community engagement does not extend to community ownership. Such ownership, let's be clear, could introduce significant complexities for those local communities, around finance and liability, so we will want to explore other models of community engagement and benefit sharing.

Now, let's turn to the role of legislation. More broadly, the long-term security that our coal-tip communities deserve is grounded in a much-needed modernisation of the outdated disused tips legislation in Wales. Now, this is a real priority for this Government. We set it out in our programme for government, and we remain committed to establishing that long-term proactive regime to ensure the ongoing safety of communities living alongside what is indeed the consequences of Wales's industrial past. So, I do really look forward to introducing the disused mine and quarry tips (Wales) Bill to the Senedd before Christmas.

And I note the committee's recommendation 15 for the scope of the forthcoming Bill to expand to include opencast mining. Now, this is something that Members have raised several times in this Chamber previously, Dirprwy Lywydd, so I've got to reiterate the position both I and my ministerial colleagues have highlighted before, that the inclusion of provisions relating to restoration of former opencast sites is simply not feasible at this time. Doing so would significantly expand the legislative reach of an already complex Bill as we go into these latter stages of this Senedd term, and could have significant implications that could make the Bill undeliverable. The aim of the Bill is to reduce the likelihood of landslides of disused coal and non-coal tips through the establishment of a new public body that will have functions in relation to assessment and registration, monitoring and management of disused tips. This is a huge undertaking, and it's what the Government has already committed to delivering. So, in the present time, I hope Members will understand that our focus must be to ensure that disused tips are safe, to deliver a modernised fit-for-purpose regulatory regime, and once the Bill has been implemented—. Dirprwy Lywydd, I realise I'm going slightly over, but I know you'll understand. I took a few interventions.

[Inaudible.]

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Once the Bill is in place, it will then be important to focus on developing the resource capacity and the capability—something that the committee actually raised here—through considering an independent review of funding needs, as well as developing a more detailed strategic approach to managing the consequences of Wales's industrial past.

Now, nevertheless, there is much we can and are doing in the meantime, to lay the groundwork for the future. A significant aspect of this futureproofing involves, indeed, working with the UK Government. Welsh Government has already allocated approximately £65 million since 2020 to improve the safety of coal tips, but looking to the future, indeed, the case for the UK Government to contribute funding to make our tips safe is very clear and very compelling, and to that end I am indeed pleased that the Chancellor’s autumn budget on 30 October demonstrates she has listened to what Wales needs. She has recognised the potential safety threat from disused coal tips, and has provided £25 million in 2025-26—[Interruption.]—I think I’ll answer your question in a moment.

No, you will not answer the question because you’re way out of time now.

And I can’t take another intervention, can I?

No.

Alongside the continued investment from the Welsh Government—my apologies, but I think—. We will work with the UK Government ahead of the second phase of the spending review to ensure that Wales’s needs for future years are fully considered and to help make these tips safe for current and future generations. Am I exhausting your patience?

You have gone well beyond the time now.

Okay. This does not mean that we’ve forgotten about the need to remediate and reclaim disused tips; that’s got to be a long-term aim, but we’ve got to be realistic and recognise that it’s not feasible right now in this current economic climate, given that it can take up to £30 million to reclaim one single tip. But I can assure you that these longer term plans will be something that I will continue to raise with the UK Government.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I probably have exhausted your patience, but I do want to thank everybody who gave evidence for the committee report, the committee members and others who spoke today as well and raised very valid points. I think we’re on the same mission here of what we need to do for these communities that live in the shadow of our industrial past, and make this safe for them and actually gain some of the benefits when we have effective restoration and reclamation, as indeed we’ve seen in parts of the Parc Slip within my own constituency. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

And I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everybody who’s contributed to the debate. There were so many speakers, I think that reflects the strength of feeling across the Chamber and across many communities affected by these activities. I would go right back to the early contribution from the Conservative spokesperson: you’re right to say that collaboration is key on restoration, but I would say that keeping your promises is key on restoration as well, and that’s the crux of the issue here, frankly. Promises have been made and promises have been broken and public bodies have been impotent when it comes to holding people to account.

Delyth Jewell described the situation as a debacle, an absence of clear accountability. Well, you know—. And as you say, accountability not only needs to be clarified, it needs to be enforced. And picking up on a few points made by Members, the committee certainly hasn’t ignored other opencast sites. We’re very aware that similar challenges have been common and similar failures have been experienced, and, indeed, we had representatives from Margam to present oral evidence to us in committee, but Ffos-y-fran, of course, was playing out in real time before our eyes in terms of operations beyond their licence and it was very much the spur, I think, that made the committee decide that this was an area that really had to be considered.

And Sioned Williams is right: this really should be a turning point. Plans have changed and evolved over time and public concern about water bodies, about the integrity and safety of some of these sites—they just don’t feel that their voices are being heard. And it is therefore as much an issue of social justice as anything else, having given so much over the years, to allow that work to happen. They’re now feeling, of course, that they’re just being fobbed off, as you say, and it is still happening. The Cabinet Secretary reminded us that he wants to see a structured approach—dull strwythuredig—but then, of course, we were reminded we have the Coal Authority, we have Natural Resources Wales, we have local government, the communities themselves, the companies who are involved, Government—and, of course, you reminded us, not just one Minister, two, three, maybe more Ministers as well. So, it’s difficult to see that united, co-ordinated approach, and bringing clarity to that in your response to recommendation No. 8 is positive. Although the No. 8 in another context isn’t so positive, because you rejected eight of our recommendations, which is more than we’re used to, I have to say. So, in that respect, that’s somewhat disappointing. But I note and welcome your reference to the coal-tip safety legislation being brought forward before Christmas. Well, do you know what else would be good before Christmas, maybe? Giving those communities who feel that they’ve been cheated on restoration the support that they need, and that is certainly something that we as a committee will continue to pursue. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee’s report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives debate: the First Minister's first 100 days. And I call on Andrew Davies to move the motion.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I formally move the motion standing on the order paper today, and I also reject the two amendments that have been added by the opposition party and the governing party in relation to the motion. Most politicians seem to get fixated on the first 100 days of anyone's tenure in office, and this motion today is not about chastising the First Minister or the Government for the actions they have taken, it is about pointing out where we believe the decisions that you have taken have been wrong and not in the interest of Wales. Because I don't underestimate—[Interruption.]—I don't underestimate the responsibility that being a Government Minister, or indeed a First Minister, actually holds, and the weight that's on your shoulders. I have no doubt about that at all, and the commitment, that the Government benches here and in any Parliament take their job very seriously.

But it cannot escape people's notice that, over the first 100 days of the First Minister's tenure in office, there have been some significant decisions, both here in Cardiff and also in Westminster, in particular when it comes to the budget and also the ramifications of some of the early decisions that the Labour Party took in Government in Westminster, in particular, the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance for pensioners. Because it is about—[Interruption.] It is about standing up for Wales and making sure that, where Wales's interest isn't best served, that is called out and it is pointed out what is detrimental to many citizens here in Wales. When you think of the winter fuel allowance, 570,000 pensioners are going to be hit by this cruel withdrawal of a valuable benefit. No manifesto commitment was made, I accept that, but many manifesto commitments historically exist in Labour manifesto documents, and their own briefing documents in the 2017 election clearly stated that the withdrawal of this benefit would see 4,000 premature deaths—4,000 premature deaths by the withdrawal of this benefit. Surely it's not unreasonable to expect the First Minister of Wales to stand up for Welsh pensioners and highlight that such a drastic policy reversal by the Labour Party will have such an impact on pensioners here in Wales.

And then we look at national insurance increases here in Wales and the commitments made by the Labour Party in opposition that it was a jobs tax if you raise NI contributions and there were no plans within the manifesto to lift NI contributions, when we know full well the detrimental impact it will have on job numbers here in Wales. The numbers that only came out yesterday showed that we've got the highest unemployment already of any part of the United Kingdom, at 5.3 per cent and rising. We've seen already an increasing number of businesses highlighting the dramatic impact that this increase in NI will have on their affairs.

I don't give much business to hairdressers, as many people, a bit like the Deputy Presiding Officer and myself, who have the same condition. But it was highlighted yesterday that salons and barbershops across the country, through their trade association, have said that 40 per cent of barbershops and salons are unviable with this increase in NI contributions.

Just to put it into context, the NI contribution for someone on the medium range of wage of £33,000, it'll cost an employer £900 extra to employ that person with this increase in NI. Someone on the minimum wage will cost an employer £770. That's real money, and I appreciate that the Government has a budget that it has to deliver, but when you've gone through a general election campaign and the politicians have said, 'We have no intention to raise NI contributions,' it's not unreasonable to be bitterly disappointed when the first budget that's laid has such a dramatic impact on employment opportunities, not just here in Wales but across the United Kingdom. And that's a big issue of trust that people have lost in the Government in Westminster, and, indeed, the Labour Party.

But, closer to home, the First Minister set the target quite clearly of reducing waiting times, and I raised this yesterday in First Minister's questions, highlighting the 50-day challenge that the health Minister's brought forward. Yet, in the first 100 days of the First Minister's time in office, there has been an increase of 9,000 pathways on the waiting lists, 4,000 patients have been added to the waiting lists, and nearly 1,000 extra patients are waiting two years or more. How can we generally have confidence that the First Minister has the grip and the Government have the grip on the waiting-time crisis that Wales is facing, in particular, when there are 614,000 patients waiting on a waiting list, and 800,000 pathways being added to by the day, because hospitals can't keep up with the demand?

I accept that there is unprecedented demand—I fully accept that—but we in Wales, regrettably, have a higher proportion of the population on a waiting list than any part of United Kingdom. When you look at England, for example, the two-year waits are down to under 150 people waiting for two years or more. In Wales, it is 24,000 and rising. That is a damning indictment of Government failure here in Wales, and, ultimately, the First Minister, who was the health Minister, had a grip on this in her early tenure, but, every target she set herself, the Government missed. That is not standing up for patients here in Wales, it's not standing up for clinicians, and it's not standing up, importantly, for the workforce that turn up, day in, day out, to stand before their patients and try and deliver a world-class service. And that's what we must remember. The decisions that are taken here, in Cathays Park or in the Senedd, affect patients and staff alike.

And then you look at the Tata deal. We were told that, if Labour were in Government, ultimately, there would be a better deal offered by the Government in Westminster, and the Welsh Government were saying, 'Let's have the general election now. Let's have an early general election and change the narrative.' Well, no deal came forward, and the same amount of jobs was lost, regrettably, at Tata, as was originally envisaged by Tata back in 2023 in September. Now, where was that deal where we were told that, if you had the reins of power, you could make a better deal for the people of Wales and steel making here in Wales? Again, a failure to stand up for the people of Wales, and, in particular, the workers at Port Talbot in particular.

And then, whether you agree or disagree with the agricultural property relief proposals that the Chancellor brought forward, again, it is a betrayal of the commitments that Keir Starmer made in 2023 and Steve Reed made in the general election this year, when they said they had no plans to change agricultural property relief. Surely, the First Minister would want to stand up for an important part of our economy, an important part of our social fabric and an important part of the rural fabric that is so important here to Wales. But, regrettably, on all the fronts that I've mentioned in my opening remarks, the First Minister's been silent and failed to stand up for Wales on those important issues, whether it be the withdrawal of winter fuel payments, whether it be the introduction of national insurance, whether it be agricultural property relief, or actually mapping out a clear route to improve the NHS here in Wales and make sure that waiting times come down, which we all want to see.

That is the purpose of the motion today, which is highlighting how the First Minister has, in her first 100 days, failed to stand up for the people of Wales and failed to deliver on what we would expect from a First Minister here in Wales: to deliver what's beneficial to the people of Wales. And that is why I look across the Chamber and look for support from all parties to support this motion, which I don't think I'm going to get from the governing party, and I can see Hefin's got his lectern ready to go, so we're going to listen to Hefin later on no doubt defend the Government's position. But, when you listen to what I've said today, I've offered the evidence and I've offered the solutions, in some instances, through Conservative policy positions that we've put loud and clear. And when people come before us with a manifesto and then break that manifesto within the first couple of days of Government, that loses trust in politicians and trust in parties. And that's why I call on support for the motion that's before the Senedd this afternoon, and I'd hope that it carries favour and carries support and the First Minister does better in the next 100 days of her tenure to deliver for the people of Wales.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. They do say that a week is a long time in politics—a great deal can happen in a very short period of time—but for those who were hoping that the new First Minister would mean a change of tone and a change of direction, if we look back over the first 100 days of the latest Labour First Minister, there is little evidence to support that saying.

The First Minister took some weeks to decide what her priorities were and settled on these: cutting waiting lists in the NHS; creating green jobs to tackle the climate emergency; increasing educational standards; and connecting communities. Now, I am willing enough to accept that it would be unreasonable to expect the First Minister to have transformed all of those areas of priority by now, but it's fair to ask where the vision is and where the plan is that can lead to that change. There is no plan to tackle the crisis facing the health service; the only announcement so far, from the stage of the Labour conference, on a new cross-border relationship that turned out not to be a new cross-border relationship at all, has been the subject of ridicule and contradiction from the beginning. And, meanwhile, waiting lists are at their highest ever.

So, no change of direction on health. Similarly, no plan for green—

Will you take an intervention?

Of course.

Thank you. The First Minister opened the new medical school up in north Wales, which is really welcomed, and I understand, now, that the Royal Alexandra Hospital, which we've been looking forward to proposals coming forward on—they're coming forward next year. And there will be capital funding, finally, from the UK Government—250 times more capital funding than there was before, under the previous Government. So, all this is showing a shift and a movement to help in north Wales.

I certainly welcome any reference to the successful Plaid Cymru campaign to get that medical school in Bangor. I don't think, though, we can refer to the fact that that happened—happened to happen—during the first 100 days of the new First Minister's tenure as a sign of significant moves forward by the First Minister. 

So, no change of direction on health. Similarly, no plan for green jobs or growth. The Labour Party have called it a relationship, a partnership in power between Labour in Wales—

Will you take another intervention? Just one more, just a little one.

Okay.

Because I'm practising. No jobs—I know that Eren Holding in north Wales, again, recently opened. The First Minister was there—the Welsh Government intervening as well, creating, now, 400 unionised jobs, which is really fantastic and really welcomed in north Wales.

Again, we're talking about where is the change of direction, a change of tone, under a new First Minister. I'm not seeing that. We can refer to things that have happened in the last 100 days; that does not mean a change of direction under a new First Minister.

But we call it a partnership—. We've had it referred to as a partnership of power, but you have to earn that descriptor; you just can't ascribe it to yourself unconditionally. For it to be justified, we have to see how a partnership in power benefits Wales. The least we expected was for the First Minister, for example, to put up a fight for steelworkers in Port Talbot.

Now, on education, her first 100 days saw a damning report into how pupils are taught to read in Wales and how Welsh Government guidance has been severely lacking. Now, this flies in the face of the Minister's assertion last week that, and I quote:

'The big picture in 2024 is that schools are getting the basics right.'

They're clearly not.

When the First Minister became the leader of Labour in Wales, she promised to turn the tables—'doing things differently', she said. But, her approach to dealing with the Prime Minister of the UK has been, in many ways, a backwards step. On the case for a needs-based funding formula, devolution of the Crown Estate and full HS2 consequentials, the Welsh Government have, at various junctures, come to agree with Plaid Cymru positions. But, now, with Labour in UK Government, the First Minister has singularly failed to move the dial. 

Our amendment expresses regret at the new First Minister failing to make the case for Wales on those issues, and on the dreadful winter fuel payment cut and on the two-child benefit cap. I'm afraid that what we've seen is Labour in Welsh Government, under the new First Minister, shifting into the mode of defending their masters at Westminster. Yes, we need Welsh Ministers, as Plaid Cymru Ministers would be, engaging positively with the UK Government, but we gain nothing by being in thrall to them. A fundamental difference between Plaid Cymru and Labour is that we will never let Westminster diktat hamper our ambitions for Wales.

The First Minister's proclaimed priorities are admirable—yes, we must bring down waiting lists; yes, we must prioritise creating green jobs; yes, we must raise standards in our schools and better connect our communities. But, 100 days in, the truth is that there's no plan and no sign of a plan.

I'll end, Dirprwy Lywydd, by saying that the irony of Labour's amendment won't be lost on these benches—a list of things that happened to have crossed the line, as I say, during the First Minister's first 100 days in office, including ideas that came from Plaid Cymru and that Labour in the past tried to block or vote against. Yes, we're delighted to have got those things done, but we won't be supporting a motion that proclaims significant progress made by the new First Minister when, by any objective measure, nothing has fundamentally changed in those 100 days.

I call on the First Minister to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

I would like to extend my congratulations to the First Minister on a proactive and productive first 100 days in the wake of unfathomable Tory mismanagement, a crippling cost-of-living crisis, shattered public services, a starvation of investment across the UK and high levels of energy insecurity. Our First Minister's leadership, and a strong partnership between the Welsh and UK Governments, means that devolved Wales can now move forward, but aligned in co-operation, brokership and with those shared principles that are core.

In particular for this debate, I want to highlight the exceptional and welcome partnership between both Labour Governments on the climate crisis. Energy and climate is at the heart of the Labour Government agenda, and we are not wasting a moment in delivering on our commitments. Wales was the first nation in the world to declare a climate emergency—a monumental and proud moment, I hope, for us all.

Beyond this, we are committed to investing in skills, innovation and infrastructure, creating green jobs, while also delivering on our climate ambitions. This includes roles in renewable energy, sustainable land management and environmental restoration. These are the green jobs of the future, helping to protect our planet, not cull it, and providing Welsh families with financial security and stability, and well-paid jobs. The foundation laid for sustainable agriculture will protect our natural environment, while also protecting all parts of Wales. Furthermore, the First Minister and the Welsh Labour Government have made clear their commitment to streamlining the planning process, enabling faster decisions for renewable energy projects, green infrastructure and new housing developments. These are policies—proactive policies—aimed at delivering immediate benefits for local communities, while laying the foundation for long-term sustainable growth.

In addition to all of this, the UK Labour Government has lifted onshore wind bans, consented to 1.3 GW of solar power projects, announced plans to lift 1 million renters out of fuel poverty, and confirmed funding for 11 new hydrogen projects. And there’s more. Yesterday, at COP29, the Prime Minister said

‘the United Kingdom is determined to stand alongside those countries on the frontline of the climate crisis today, and to seize the opportunities of tomorrow, because action on climate now is the route towards economic growth, energy security, better jobs and national security in the long term.'

After 14 long years of Tory rule, our UK and our devolved Welsh Government, and our First Minister, although we are devolved, are fully aligned, working together to put our communities, economy and environment first, and this is Labour delivering on its promises to create a sustainable, fairer future for all, and I, for one, am very proud to stand behind it. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to congratulate the First Minister on becoming the first female First Minister of Wales. However, after 25 years and 100 days of the third Labour Government this year, what do we see? Broken promises, endless problems and a Government completely out of touch with the hardworking people of Wales. The First Minister said that she had listened to the public and the people of Wales, and it is a shame that it’s taken 25 years for the Government here to understand that you do need to listen to the public. So, let’s see—[Interruption.]. So, let's see the impact of the first—[Interruption.]

I would like to hear the contribution from the Member—

There's more to come.

—and I would expect all parties to allow that to happen. And I mean all parties.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. There's plenty more to come. So, let's see the impact of the first 100 days of this Government, and let's see what you've not been doing to address the issues that matter most to the people of Wales. 

Let’s talk health. The First Minister, once health Minister, promised that no-one in Wales would wait more than a year for an appointment by the end of 2022. Well, here we are, nearly two and a half years later, thousands of people on a waiting list, people waiting in the back of ambulances, and people waiting in hospitals for social care just to go home, and all they want from this Government is answers, leadership and accountability. In the north, Betsi Cadwaladr has been put into special measures. In the south, patients at the Grange hospital are waiting for hours in ambulances only to be stuck in bays so crowded that they have to use industrial fans to clear the fumes from idling vehicles. And in Powys, a health board in a crippling budget deficit, closing local services. Is this the health service that we really want to see after 100 days and 25 years of Labour? I don’t think so. But despite all these challenges, our NHS staff are working tirelessly to provide exceptional care and going above and beyond the call of duty.

And let’s turn to education. While children in England move ahead, our students in Wales fall further behind. PISA scores in reading, maths and science are at rock bottom, putting the future of our young people at risk. Our hard-working teachers and teaching assistants are doing their best in increasingly difficult circumstances, overburdened with huge workloads, and it's clear that they are being let down by the Welsh Government. And on the forty-ninth day of this Government, ITV reminded us that many students under this Government are entering secondary school illiterate.

Then, within the first 100 days, comes the betrayal of our pensioners. Many Ministers, and the First Minister, and many Labour Members, didn't turn up to the debate we held here on winter fuel payments. They left our pensioners out in the cold, forced to choose between heating and eating, and shamelessly supporting the UK Labour Government.

And then comes the betrayal of our businesses. Our businesses are under siege. Wales is already facing the highest rising unemployment rate across the United Kingdom. Our businesses are getting hammered. And the latest UK Government budget, fully supported by the Welsh Government here, is only going to make things harder: corporation tax up, national insurance up, minimum wage up, and capital gains slashed.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, in a second, Joyce.

And a Bill coming forward now attacking our visitor economy. The anti-growth coalition is in full swing here in Cardiff, and now they're aided and abetted by Westminster.

Yes, I will take an intervention, Joyce.

I would just like to ask you, just on behalf of all your constituents, and also my constituents, are you telling me that you don't think that the hard-working people who are on low wages deserve that uplift, since you've just mentioned it as a negative, in the minimum wage and the living wage? I'm just interested, because you mentioned it as a negative.

If you're going to put the minimum wage up, Joyce, you actually can’t put other taxes up for business as well, because they do need to have money to employ people, to put that money back in the community, to support the public services that we all require.

But let's be clear, this Government here is not a Government for the people. It's a Government for their union paymasters. It doesn't support hard-working people. Meanwhile, while all those issues I talked about need to be addressed, what have Labour's priorities been for the last 25 years, for this Senedd term of the last 100 days? They're obsessed with electoral and constitutional reforms, adding more Senedd Members costing £120 million. They're obsessed with reducing speed limits and propping up failing institutions. They're so distracted by fringe issues, they've seen our public services slip into the gutter and neglected the communities and the people who feel left behind across Wales.

First Minister, you pledged that your Government would prioritise delivery. You even put a Minister in place—

You need to conclude now, James, please.

—who has been quiet this whole debate. However, we are yet to see progress on the issues that the people of Wales care about. The people have been watching closely after these 100 days, and we have too, and we've had enough. In 2026, the voice of the people—

James, you need to conclude now, please.

—the voice of the people will make it clear. They'll say it's time to call last orders on this Government. It's time to make Wales great again. Enough is enough. It's time to change, and it can't change soon enough.

In her tour over the summer, the First Minister visited Pontypridd, which is part of my region, and I know that she had many interesting conversations, which I'm sure helped to steer the priorities that we heard outlined by Rhun ap Iorwerth earlier. I, too, go to Pontypridd market regularly and speak to people. They love talking about politics there. They had very clear opinions on many things that have been going on here.

But I've also been having discussions with them on how they think things are going after the last general election and what their reflections are of the situation in this Parliament, on the new budget and so on. And certainly, they want to see this Labour Government prioritising those things that they heard so much about before that general election, and they've expressed disappointment to me that there has been a change of tone in terms of this Parliament, led by the First Minister here, and insisting on some of the things that they were so vocal about when there was another party in charge in Westminster.

To highlight the two-child benefit cap, this is having a huge impact on people in our communities. It is a cruel policy that is being continued by the UK Labour Government. I want to hear our First Minister stating that and challenging the UK Government on the issue. 

In terms of the winter fuel allowance for some pensioners, this is a very real concern for people in our communities. They want each and every one of us to be entirely united on the issue. I have no doubt that if a Conservative Government was still in power and introduced this change, you would have been standing shoulder to shoulder with us calling for that to be overturned. And these are the things that people reflect upon: is our First Minister listening, is she prioritising us over her membership of a political party, and do her Ministers agree with her? Mick Antoniw, as the local Member for Pontypridd, spoke out against the cut in the winter fuel allowance, but, in terms of voting, things have been very different since the change in Westminster. So, that's one of the things that I reflect upon. 

Now, clearly, things have changed in having a different Government in Westminster—a Labour Government there too. 

Heledd, will you take an intervention from Cefin Campbell? 

I will. Of course I will. 

Cefin Campbell. Cefin, your hand was up for an intervention. Did you want to make an intervention? No. Okay. 

Thank you very much for agreeing with every word I've said, Cefin Campbell—I'm pleased to have your support from a distance. [Laughter.] 

In terms of those priorities, I think we need to ensure that we don't lose sight of those priorities. One of the things that has been very unfortunate is that one of the most notable things that's happened in the first 100 days has been on electoral candidates lists, and that we have changed that to guidance rather than an actual Bill. We are so proud to see a woman in the role of First Minister, but, as Women's Equality Network Wales have stated clearly, having guidance is so much weaker than having legislation. I had hoped that having two Labour Governments would have meant that any barriers in terms of that Bill could have been removed and that we could have seen real change. So many of us who were discussing the issue in the Chamber yesterday are very concerned that, without that Bill, we will not see the change that we need to see here. The evidence that we heard during Senedd reform committee meetings, in looking at this element, was entirely clear that this Bill was crucial. So, I want to say how disappointed so many people are that that Bill has been shelved in the first 100 days. 

One of the most unfortunate things—. We've all said unfortunate things in interviews—I'm sure we're all guilty of that at one time or another—but one of the things that created an unfavourable reflection as far as I'm concerned was the First Minister's interview on Byd ar Bedwar, where she compared her influence on Keir Starmer with her influence on Donald Trump. Given that Donald Trump has now become President once again, perhaps it would be good to know how much influence she actually has on Donald Trump, but those kinds of things do concern people in Pontypridd and across Wales. We want a First Minister who will insist on the best for Wales, who will insist on all of the points that we were so vocal in insisting upon before the election. It shouldn't make a difference to Wales which party is in charge in Westminster. We should be prioritising the people of Wales and what will make a difference to our communities.   

Well, let's not beat about the bush here—I never do. There's some irony I've heard from other Member benches today and, it has to be said, some hypocrisy. Welsh Labour, supported by Plaid Cymru over the past 25 years, have led to some shockingly high waiting lists, poor educational outcomes, a collapsing public transport system, and our roads are in disrepair—I could go on. Social services completely underfunded. So, there's always new hope when a fresh and new leader takes over, the third one in less than four years. I always remember, First Minister, that your speech to the Labour conference in September 2024 said you were going to be a catalyst for change. So, granted, you've only been in post for 100 days, and it's fair to say—and it's not many more days that the UK Government have been in power—it's fair to say that you've done less damage than them, but you did support the taking, by the UK Government, of the fuel payments from our pensioners. So, for that, I just feel that you've failed the people of Wales. But we're looking for this change now, this catalyst for change.

Despite your promises to reinvent Welsh Labour, our waiting times have worsened. Wales is now facing a healthcare crisis like no other, with over 800,000 people waiting for treatment, equivalent to one in four of the population. Two-year waits remain unacceptably high, unmet targets in all health outcomes, cancer treatment targets are woefully behind, and GP accessibility has deteriorated—we've lost 100 practices since 2012. Polls now reveal that nearly three quarters of people lack trust in your Government's ability and, I guess, in you, to deliver healthcare in Wales. Given the ongoing issues within the Betsi Cadwaladr health board in north Wales, and the frequent mishandling of healthcare matters, it is unsurprising that public confidence remains so low. I put a freedom of information request in about how much medical negligence there was over the last 12 months, and just on ombudsman cases alone, without no-win, no-fee cases, without legal cases, it was £75,000—money that could have gone back into the health board.

We look at our farmers who've been, again, penalised by the UK Labour Government, and you support that, and you've done that within your 100 days. So, I'm not convinced that you are, as yet, the catalyst for change that Wales needs. A CLA Cymru poll found only 3 per cent of farmers now trust the Welsh Government, while 87 per cent believe the sustainable farming scheme will neither support their businesses nor achieve environmental goals. Welsh Labour's insistence on a 10 per cent tree cover target completely disregards farmers' concerns. Why are you not listening? I have to say, when you were health Minister, you did listen, and it was refreshing to be able to come to a health Minister where you were listening. We want you to listen now. We want you to be the catalyst for change. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have Andrew R.T. Davies in the position to be able to be the real catalyst for change, but you are there, you are the elected First Minister.

Recent Welsh Government statistics reveal an employment rate of just 69 per cent in Wales, compared to the UK average of 75 per cent. We know the median wage is completely lower in Wales than it is in England. Economic inactivity remains high at 26 per cent. You've done nothing as well in your 100 days to stop the escalating temporary accommodation spend. We've now got 140,000 people on social housing waiting lists, and over 11,000 in temporary accommodation. Some of them are children and some of them will be spending Christmas day, First Minister, in a hotel bedroom.

So, you can see, as far as I'm concerned, I need to know where you've been listening. You've gone around on this all-Wales exercise of listening to constituents. I don't know many people who say they've seen you. I don't know how much that cost, what you listened to, and how you are going to address it. That's why, really, I'm really looking forward to your response to this debate today, because, quite frankly, I have not seen anything within the last 100 days that tells me that things are going to get better in Wales. Believe me, in 18 months' time—

You need to conclude now, please, Janet.

Yes. Okay, I will. There is an election for the Senedd in 2026, in less than 18 months' time. The only real catalyst for change will be—for anybody watching this, and the voters out there—to vote Welsh Conservative, and let's see Andrew Davies—[Interruption.] Let's see Andrew Davies—

You need to conclude, Janet, please.

Yes, I think you know what I mean. Diolch. [Laughter.]

Why have I always got to follow Janet Finch-Saunders? [Laughter.] I'm not entirely convinced by the FDR 100 days measure. It worked for him; I'm not sure it's going to work so much across modern politics, which moves so quickly and so differently to the times of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. But what I would say is that we have only had a UK Labour Government since, was it, July, and the 100-days measure of the First Minister also needs to be put into that context, and the fact that we've only had the transformational budget in the last month.

One of the things I want to say about Eluned Morgan—we've known each other a long time now—is she's the only First Minister who gives me a cwtsh every time I see her. I can see Mark Drakeford getting a little worried there. [Laughter.] I'm not expecting anything, finance Minister, but I do think it demonstrates the warmth of Eluned Morgan. The fact that she comes from a background in Ely, one of the poorest parts of the United Kingdom, succeeded against the odds, and has every right to be proud of her status, both in the House of Lords and as our first female First Minister. She came in with the unanimous support of the Labour group, and I think, at the next election, she will have had more than 100 days, but 18 months to prove what she can do. I think that both her listening exercise, which stands that in good stead, and the leading into the next Senedd election will prove that she has the popularity on her side, as a result of the activities that she's undertaken and will be undertaking in the next year of this Senedd.

I think Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned the four priorities. I wanted to look at connecting communities. In my community, we have the newest rail carriages, the newest train carriages, on the Rhymney to Cardiff line of the whole of the UK, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were one of the newest and best quality in the whole of Europe. We have that carried on, and that will be grown in the next 18 months across Wales, across the Valleys lines. The core Valleys lines will see brand-new stock, and we will then see a bus Bill that will be designed to introduce franchising that will connect those buses into those rail networks. I think that is a significant—a significant—achievement in connecting communities, because when I was first elected—. Natasha Asghar is looking really sceptically at me. When I was first elected in 2016, I had e-mails about Arriva trains and people being squashed in like sardines—

They still are.

No, they're not. No, they're not.

They really, really are. You should go out into the world.

No, they're not. You should travel on the Rhymney line from time to time.

I will not have conversations across the Chamber, please.

You should travel on the Rhymney line from time to time. The quality of the train transport is incredible. But what we need to do next is connect that bus transport into it, and that is why the First Minister is empowering a transport Cabinet Secretary to introduce a bus services Bill that will improve those services. Mabon.

I'm chuffed for the people that you represent that you've got new trains, but, in my area, we've seen trains being cut, and we've seen bus journeys cut. That's the record of the first 100 days; that's the record of this Labour Government. Is that something you're proud of?

I think we need to give Transport for Wales more credit. What you're going to see—. I've often likened Transport for Wales to a flowering flower, a flower flowering across Wales, and it just happens that the germination of that flower begins in Caerphilly. And I would suggest to you that you will see radically improved public transport throughout Wales as we see those carriages coming onto the line: Welsh-made and European-made carriages. You will see it, it will happen, and it will happen gradually, but this is again another demonstration of why the first 100 days is something of a misnomer.

The other thing I'd say, you know, we talk about speed limits and 20 mph. We've seen a clear listening exercise and I've seen people in my constituency come to me and say, 'Thank you for listening now in a way that didn't happen before', and I'd say that the First Minister is a listening First Minister. If we can characterise her in any particular way, it is a First Minister who listens. I'm very proud to be supporting Eluned Morgan, and I'm very proud to be standing with her, if I'm selected, in 2026, where I think the achievements of her administration will be recognised by the public at that election.

Deputy Llywydd, it's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. I'm always conscious when I'm one of the final speakers on the list that I don't try to repeat things that have already been said, but I think the remarks I've drafted today would be in no danger of doing that, given that I don't believe the subject has been raised in most degrees in the entire length of this sixth Senedd thus far.

What I'd like to focus on is point 2 of the Welsh Conservatives' motion today, which states that we regret

'that the First Minister has failed to stand up for Wales and deliver the improvements that the people of Wales deserve.'

And the area I want to focus on, which applies to part 2 of our motion, would be the lack of commentary or acknowledgement from the First Minister in response to the UK Labour Government's plans to impose 20 per cent VAT on private schools across the UK, and removing their current charitable status. Although I recognise that this specific area is not devolved to Wales, given that it's a value added tax matter, it equally has an impact on education systems in Wales, which, no doubt at some point, fall onto your table, and also that of the Cabinet Secretary for Education and her deputies.

Although the Labour Party are ideologically opposed to the very existence of private schools, they still have a profile and a voice within the parameters of a Welsh context. And what we've actually seen over time since devolution and the one-party state, which Wales has become, is a significant reduction in private school provision in Wales since the 1990s, with swathes of closures of schools that, historically, had a long-standing presence in many communities across Wales. Personally, I'm, unfortunately, old but young enough to remember and be a beneficiary of the assisted places scheme of the 1980s and 1990s, where the UK Conservative Government actually paid private school fees for children who passed an entrance exam, and the opportunity that gave to gifted children from less wealthy backgrounds, which achieved social mobility and fluidity for people from backgrounds who wouldn't have had that opportunity to flourish otherwise.

I'm not advocating that we wind back the clock and go back to those times at all, but it's more to highlight the speed of societal change, driven by the left, in abolishing opportunities for kids from less wealthy backgrounds to prosper, through the abolition of new grammar schools in 1998 and the discouragement and universality of what the Welsh education system has become since devolution, in creating a singular exam board that all state schools have to adhere to, no matter what their needs or location are. A harsh critic might say it's a forced egalitarianism that Lenin himself would be proud of.

But what I've increasingly become concerned about is the lack of acknowledgement from the First Minister and her Government in response to this news, and what the Welsh Government's view is on this matter, because no matter how you look at it, the policy around private schools in Wales and across the UK has gone from one polar opposite to the other in the space of less than 30 years. And the fact the Welsh Government has given no commentary on this matter is a cause for concern, given the historical status and presence of private schools in Wales, and the role they continue to play in society, albeit through a watered down framework compared to the halcyon days of 30 to 40 years ago.

What impact assessment has the Welsh Government made in response to the news about the potential impact such decisions will have on the state school system in Wales? And how robust is the state school system to the potential of a mass populating of this system, given that the decision to apply 20 per cent VAT will impact the most upon the parents, children and families who make painstaking sacrifices in their personal lives in order to give their children the best possible start in life? The rich and the super rich won't be impacted, nor will the Chinese-backed private schools, of which we have many in Wales and the UK. It will be those private education providers and families who live hand to mouth—like Rydal Penrhos in Colwyn Bay, St David's College in Llandudno, and St Gerard's in Bangor—who will suffer the most.

So, in 100 days of Baroness Morgan of Ely taking the reins of the Welsh Government, we've had no directional statement by her or any of her deputies or officials in terms of the future of education in Wales, given the substantial ideologically driven—

Will you give way?

Yes, certainly, Mark.

I’ll share the concern expressed to me on my visits to these schools that the children who will be hardest hit are children with additional learning needs who have been placed there because they need the environment—the small classes, the peace, the quiet—that meets their needs, which they can't get and haven't received in the state sector.

Absolutely, Mark, yes, and in particular I noted St David's school in Llandudno, which does have a rich history of providing that additional support for people with additional learning needs, and I do note the value that the private sector does play in that regard.

But we've seen no directional statement by her or any of her deputies or officials in terms of the future of education in Wales, given the substantial ideologically driven policies of the new UK Labour Government. We need a Government in Wales that represents all people in Wales, no matter where they come from or where they live, rather than sitting here in the comfortable trappings of Cardiff Bay—

Will you give way?

Yes, certainly.

Gareth, I'm wondering if you really need, with some of your colleagues, to start listening a bit more. I've addressed these issues, repeatedly, in the Chamber, made repeated statements about priorities. You know, please, keep up.

I am keeping up, because what we’ve seen is no statement from you in terms of the response of the Welsh Government in terms of the 20 per cent VAT on private schools. There are many private schools across Wales, and there’s not been one statement or one comment from you, Cabinet Secretary. So, I don’t buy that at all, and I am keeping up. [Interruption.] No, I’ve taken enough interventions.

So, after 25 years of managed decline in Wales under the Labour Party, it’s time for drastic change from the status quo in this country. Bring on 2026, I say, for the opportunity to drain the swamp finally here in Cardiff and make devolution work for the people the length and breadth of this country.

It’s been an interesting debate. I’ve been truly educated, just to pick up on the private education that I never had as one of eight children. But the point here is this: I think some people have got a bit of a brass neck, quite frankly. We’ve had 14 years of Tory rule, and how many debates have the Tories brought, and how many times did they ask us to fund whatever took their fancy that particular week to highlight? But not once did they make representation to their paymasters in Westminster to ask for a fairer settlement for the people of Wales. Not once did you do it. [Interruption.] In a minute.

And then, on the other side, I have to point to Plaid Cymru, who equally want lots of things, but what they want most of all is independence. And when we talk about being disingenuous, I’ve never, ever heard them say how they’re going to fund it. What I do hear them say is Westminster should given them more money. Well, if they haven’t got enough money now, how on earth do they imagine they’re going to have enough money when that stream is not coming to them? [Interruption.] 

It seems like I’m touching some raw nerves here, because I’ve got two people wanting interventions—three, now. I’ll take your intervention, James.

Thank you very much, Joyce. You did mention standing up for Wales. The Welsh Conservatives were very robust in asking for HS2 consequentials to come to Wales. It seems that, since the Labour Westminster Government has come into power, your party has forgotten that you were asking for it as well.

There’s one single item that you’re talking about. We’re talking about 14 years. And that discussion, by the way, is still ongoing, just to let you know. This is one budget within less than 100 days, which is of course the whole point of this conversation.

So, let’s have a look at what really has happened. We talk about infrastructure, and I’ve heard many of you say in this Chamber that we need to rebuild the fabric of our buildings. We’ve had a 155 times greater settlement on our capital budget than we had last year—£1 million—[Interruption.] I’m hearing you, it was additional. Let’s liken that to the other £1 million you’ve mentioned 100 times, but never once mentioned when we only had £1 million in that budget.

Let’s look at what’s happening in the health service. Some of you know I was on Sharp End, and some of you know that the Reform Party—who are talking about coming for the Tories, not least the people of Wales—are advocating that, if you want healthcare, they’re going to move into a system where you’re going to have to pay for it. But they’re going to say, ‘You’re going to take out health insurance’, I have no doubt. They talked about those who can afford it—no threshold. If anybody’s ever tried to take out healthcare insurance and they have a pre-existing condition, you will know it won’t be covered. So, if you’ve got a major pre-existing healthcare condition, that means you’re not covered at all, because everything can be attributed to that one single condition.

The other thing is that anybody that reaches around the age of 60, in anticipation that they might have some healthcare additional needs—and you'll know this if you've got pets—as they get older, the premium will go up three times greater than the one you're already paying in anticipation of that happening. Also, you'll find that you won't be able to go to the GP because you'll have to pay for that as well. So if the people of Wales are listening at all, that is something they need to be really afraid of, when people start talking about paying for your very basic needs.

You won't have the investment that we've already put in. You won't have free bowel screening for everybody over the age of 50, for example. You won't have the extra £250 million that's been put into homecare to help older people to be cared for at home and avoid thousands of unnecessary hospital stays. You won't have—[Interruption.] No.

No, there'll be no interventions now. The Member has gone over time and she's about to conclude. 

You won't have the £28 million to help cut long hospital waiting lists, and you won't have the £7.7 million that's been invested in the burns unit at Morriston Hospital.

So what I say to people is this: if you want investment in healthcare, not at your own personal cost, which you won't have the money for anyway, you need to really take on board—

You need to conclude now, Joyce, please.

What we have done in 100 days, you've failed to do in 14 years. And as for your pie-in-the-sky thinking of how you're going to fund it with independence, I'm yet to hear the answer.

I call on the First Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. When I first became First Minister, 100 days ago tomorrow, I promised real delivery for Wales, and today I can show the Senedd exactly how Welsh Labour is delivering not just promises, but concrete action for our communities. I'm really glad the Tories put this motion down today, because I can set out what is within my power to deliver and what isn't. It's important for me to once again set out how devolution works. I am responsible for the things where we have devolved responsibilities. The UK Government have their responsibilities.

I promised to champion the voices that have too often been sidelined, to stand up for parts of Wales that have too often been forgotten, and to always be a listening First Minister. But more than that, I promised to be a First Minister who's focused on delivery, and that's why my Cabinet is focused on the priorities of the people of Wales, and driving progress forward with a laser focus on delivery. These priorities will shape my Government's direction and ambition for the rest of this Senedd term. We haven't been idle since August. Let me be clear about the scale of what we've achieved in just 100 days.

In the NHS, whilst we continue in dealing with the aftermath of 14 years of austerity and a massive surge in demand, Welsh Labour is investing in solutions. We've delivered public sector wages that have risen higher and faster than prices, helping over 100,000 Welsh citizens who are delivering our public services. We invested £28 million to cut waiting times and £13 million on better end-of-life care. We've launched our North Wales Medical School, training tomorrow's doctors in Wales for Wales. We've invested £7.7 million in our Welsh Centre for burns and plastic surgery at Morriston, serving 10 million people from Aberystwyth to Oxford. We've reduced the starting age of life-saving bowel cancer screening to 50 for men and women in Wales. We've rolled out an all-Wales fracture liaison service across Wales. We've supported the UK Government's Tobacco and Vapes Bill to create a smoke-free generation in Wales and to address the issue of youth vaping. Just last week, I met NHS workers who told me that this investment means, on the front line, real support, real improvements, real difference to patients' lives.

For Welsh workers—[Interruption.] I'll make some progress, if you don't mind. For Welsh workers and our economy, we're also delivering, acting in partnership with the new UK Labour Government and standing up for what we know is most important to Welsh businesses and workers. Working with our UK Labour colleagues, we have helped to secure a landmark £1 billion investment in Shotton Mill, protecting 147 jobs and creating 220 more. By working in partnership, we also achieved a better deal for Welsh Tata steelworkers, and I think it's probably worth reminding the Tories that you said you were going to invest £80 million, but you hadn't put it in the budget. Now that's what I call a betrayal. And our joint approach delivered above-inflation pay rises, as I say, to hundreds of thousands of public sector workers, providing that much-needed support during these challenging times. That's what Welsh Labour delivery looks like.

We've taken steps to support families who work hard and to protect and connect those who are most vulnerable in our communities: £1.5 million for warm hubs across Wales, places that will keep people warm and safe this winter; £10 million for local smart energy systems, helping communities to take control of their own energy futures; £12 million in addition—[Interruption.] 

If you'd just let me get to the end of this particular list, because there are lots of lists here for 100 days; I've got a long way to go. You wanted to know about what I've done in the first 100 days; I'm going to tell you. You asked for this debate. 

Twelve million pounds in addition for better broadband connectivity; the Green Homes Wales programme, cutting bills and carbon; and a White Paper on adequate housing and fair rent, because everyone deserves an affordable home. 

Now I'm happy to take an intervention, but I will be continuing with my list, just so you're clear. 

By all means. You talked about warm hubs. Are you proud that you're a member of a party that withdrew the winter fuel allowance and has taken that away from 570,000 pensioners here in Wales, which will see 4,000 premature deaths? Are you proud as a First Minister that you've said nothing to defend the pensioners of Wales?  

Are you proud of the fact that you promised Tata workers £80 million that you hadn't budgeted for? And you didn't put any money down on the table. I think it's really important also that we look at and focus on those priorities. 

We have offered a pay rise of 5.5 per cent for teachers, going further than the pay review body recommendation. We have invested £1.1 million in literacy and numeracy. We have completed the introduction of free school meals for all primary age children because no child should have to learn on an empty stomach. We have continued to show our commitment to safeguard and protect our environment, recognising the value of our rural communities and delivering against our pledges quicker than our timetable suggested. We've invested £280,000 in forestry skills. We have launched our independent water commission. We have reached our peatland restoration targets 12 months early, and we have ensured that £14 million is available for farmers for sustainable farming. And we are standing up for Wales, strengthening our democracy and promoting to the world everything that Wales stands for. We are the first in the UK to introduce automatic voter registration. That is Welsh Labour once again in the vanguard. We have seen a better financial settlement for Wales and have secured £25 million from the UK Government for coal tip restoration. 

It's probably worth just reminding the Tories once again that our officials were trying to talk to the last UK Government for four years about the need for them to support us in terms of coal tip removal. Nothing, absolutely nothing, for four years. They wouldn't even sign the letter and wouldn't even ask the question. 

I think it's really important also to recognise that we've built stronger links with Ireland, because we know about international relationships. 

Yes, this is a lengthy list, but it could be longer, and it will be longer as we continue to deliver. 

Let me finish where I began. The first 100 days demonstrates how Welsh Labour is delivering: real investments, real jobs, real support for communities—not promises and pledges, but delivery. I am so proud of everything this Government has already delivered since I became First Minister, and I'm optimistic about what we can achieve as we move forward.

We've been living through some really tough times—the cost-of-living crisis has hurt people, and we've got to be sensitive to the needs within our communities. We've got to be sensitive to the fact that people on the front line of our public services were feeling pressurised, and giving them that increase in salary was important and significant for them, because people told me, on that listening exercise, that they cared about our public services. So, investing in those front-line people was absolutely crucial.

First Minister, will you conclude now, please?

Now, let me tell you that the path ahead isn't easy and we do face challenges. But we're going to face them together, as one Wales. Our Government is ambitious for our nation, is driven by the people's priorities and is absolutely focused on delivery. That's the Welsh Labour way, that's how we're going to build a fairer, greener and more prosperous Wales, and that's why we hope that the Welsh electorate will once again be voting for us in 2026. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on Tom Giffard to respond to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to all Members who took part in our debate today. A new First Minister is a chance to refresh, to set new priorities to improve the lives of the people of Wales. And 100 days is a landmark moment to reflect on the direction of travel towards that goal. The First Minister, when she took office, and we heard it again today, said that she would, and I quote, 'reinvent' Welsh Labour and

'focus in on things that matter to people'.

I continue:

'My guess is that they will want public services to be their priorities'.

So, let's judge this First Minister by the parameters that she set herself.

Now, what we've seen, and we heard from Rhun ap Iorwerth, is that NHS waiting lists in Wales have climbed to a record high for the seventh consecutive month. We heard from James Evans that every health board in Wales is in some form of enhanced monitoring or special measures. Two—. I hear sighs from the Labour benches—these are real people on waiting lists in Wales, waiting in pain, and they deserve better than the record of this Welsh Labour Government. [Interruption.] Two-year waits have increased for five consecutive months. [Interruption.]

Tom, you can speak, because you're the speaker. Your colleagues should keep quiet, and so should Members of the Labour Government benches. Please let's listen to the contribution.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Twenty-four thousand people are waiting two years or more for treatment in Wales, and just 124 in England. That is healthcare. And thank you, Joyce, for your contribution on private healthcare—I'm not too sure of the relevance of that to this debate.

On the economy, we've seen some shocking statistics. Unemployment is now the highest anywhere in the UK, and economic inactivity the second highest rate in the UK. Economic inactivity hurts everyone. It doesn't generate wealth, wealth that we need to fund those vital public services. It robs the potential of our young people. And as Welsh Conservatives, we called for the First Minister to abolish business rates for small businesses and reinstate business rates relief to 75 per cent for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector. That was ignored, stifling the economic growth we need to get out of those dire economic figures.

We heard as well, finally, on public services, from Gareth Davies, who I thought did a very good contribution today, on the state of our education system. And what have we seen? A damning report into the standards and the teaching of reading in Wales, using discredited practices still in our schools. I note that the Labour amendment today mentions school meals, as though it is some kind of success. But the children's commissioner earlier this year mentioned 80 per cent of children still going hungry in Welsh schools after one of those school meals. That is no record to be proud of. In response, we heard from the education Minister, in an intervention, mentioning various statements and policy positions that had been made. But what I remember is three different policy positions on reading in three weeks—a confused and chaotic Government at the heart of our education system here in Wales.

I think people also expect their First Minister to be an advocate for our nation, standing up for Wales, and on that score, these 100 days have been a failure too. Because, as we heard from Heledd Fychan, when the UK Government proposed policies that would actively damage Wales, the First Minister said that her influence on Keir Starmer was the same as what she had on Donald Trump, and that proved to be the case. When the UK Government took the callous decision to scrap winter fuel payments—a decision that could cost an additional 4,000 deaths this winter—the First Minister said nothing. She failed to stand up for Wales. When this UK Government refused to fully fund the £4 billion consequential as a result of HS2, the First Minister scaled back the ambition and called for, maybe, £350 million, at some point in the future. She failed to stand up for Wales. And when the UK Government removed inheritance tax relief for those in the agricultural sector, threatening the future of family farms, the lifeblood of rural Wales, what did she do about it? She did nothing. She failed to stand up for Wales. Rhianon Passmore talked up the partnership between two Labour Governments. With a record like that, would you really be proud of it? Mike.

Thank you for your statement on winter fuel allowance. As someone who won't be getting it this year, on the first time he was eligible to get it, I think I can tell you I don't actually need it, and there are lots of people like me who don't actually need it. And to quote—[Interruption.]—and to quote one of your colleagues, Darren Millar: why are we giving these things to millionaires? Same question: why are we giving these things to millionaires?

Well, I think there are many, many more people that will be going cold this winter, Mike, as a result of this UK Labour Government's decision to scrap winter fuel payments.

Now, we've heard many say that some of these Welsh Government failings can't be put directly at the feet of this First Minister, and I'd agree with that. After all, we had the longest NHS waiting lists in the UK before this First Minister took office, we had the worst educational outcomes anywhere in the UK before this First Minister took office, and we had the weakest economy in the UK economy before this First Minister took office. These may not be symptoms of 100 days of this First Minister, but they are symptoms of 25 years of this Welsh Labour Government. This First Minister had an opportunity to chart a new course, pick a new path, but all we have seen is more of the same. That's why this debate was tabled today, because it gives the Senedd an opportunity to change that course. And if this Senedd chooses not to do that today, then the people of Wales can do something about it in 540 days' time, at the next Senedd elections.

So, with that in mind, I say that to the people of Wales: if you want change, you have to vote for it. Don't vote for the party with a tired record of failure for a quarter of a century. And certainly don't vote for the party that has spent most of that time propping them up. And be wary of those parties on the fringes with snappy soundbites but not one policy behind the outrageous claims that they make. Support the party that can deliver the change that Wales needs, the party with that plan to deliver that better future: the Welsh Conservatives. And that change starts by backing our motion today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. No.

Therefore, there will be a vote on item 7 today, the Welsh Conservatives debate. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the motion is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to it. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions and 39 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 42 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed. 

Felly, symudwn ymlaen at welliant 2, a galwaf am bleidlais yn awr ar welliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 28, neb yn ymatal, 25 yn erbyn. Felly, mae gwelliant 2 wedi ei dderbyn.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

And that brings voting to an end. We have a short debate, so please leave quietly if you are doing so.

The short debate, therefore, is to be presented by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I have given, or have offered, at least, a minute of my time to Joyce Watson and Sioned Williams, and I thank them for taking an interest in this debate today. 

A home is supposed to be a happy place—a household full of the sound of laughter and the aroma of food in the oven whetting the appetite. But for too many people, their home is a living nightmare, where the sound of a key turning in the door is a source of fear. For others, a home is also a safe haven from the fear that grows while rushing homewards, hoping that the footsteps echoing behind do not get any closer.

The horrific case of Sarah Everard has left a scar on our conscience, and that threat remains far too common for people today. But we have a tendency to believe that our rural areas in Wales are an exception to these horrible crimes—a belief that abuse and problems of this kind are limited to urban areas only. The evidence shows otherwise. Rates of domestic abuse in north Wales are higher than those in the city of London. North Wales even faces the same level of sexual crimes as Greater Manchester, which has a population five times the size of north Wales.

I want to share a story with you today. I’ve had permission from a very special girl, who has been a part of my life for about three years by now. And she has inspired this contribution today. So, here are a few minutes of the words of this young girl before I continue with the rest of my contribution.

'I was seven years old when a man entered my life, a man who would become my stepfather. It had only been a year until I began to notice the punch marks on the doors. By the age of nine, I witnessed the first act of violence, a scene that would become all too familiar. My mam, a woman of strength and resilience, was struck, her spirit broken, and my childhood innocence shattered. By twelve, I too had become a target. I learned to live in fear in my own home.

'The authorities were involved, but their interventions were often ineffective. My mother, a victim herself, fought tirelessly to escape the clutches of abuse, but the battle cost her. She lost our home, her financial security, and almost two of her children.

'When I was 17, I thought I met a man who was the answer to my troubled past, only to discover he mirrored the man my family had escaped from. I was pushed, physically attacked, strangled. I felt powerless. Each time I tried to leave, I was lured back by the empty promises and apologies. I finally got support and put all my faith in the justice system. However, on 23 December, a month after his restraining order expired, he walked into my home and held my children and I captive, where I was subjected to violence and sexual assault. I managed to record a portion of the attack on my phone. I captured his face, voice and his admission of guilt.

'But that Christmas eve, instead of celebrating with my children, I spent 16 hours between police interviews and at the sexual assault referral centre. Meanwhile, my attacker had been arrested and released. What I naively thought would be the ending was really just the beginning.

'The aftermath was a battle against the legal system. I was told that my history of forgiveness and my childhood trauma would be used against me. The very things that had made me vulnerable were now being used to question my credibility. I cried out for therapy, just to be told that therapy would undermine my credibility. Despite the evidence against him, the justice system later failed me.

'I want to inspire others to speak out, to shatter the stigma and shame around being a victim of violence against women and girls. It's not just a women's issue; it's a human issue. We see the statistics, but behind the numbers are mothers, daughters, sisters, friends, whose lives have been shattered, whose futures have been stolen.

'I hope that my daughter will never know the pain of becoming a part of the statistics, but, if she does, I hope that the system will be different. I hope it will offer the belief, the support, and the protection, and the ultimate justice that they deserve.'

The pledge that this Government has made many times, to build a safe country, sounds very empty when one hears evidence like this.

The latest figures are terrifying, and, as the brave girl whom I quoted said, these figures are not numbers, but people. The Welsh police recorded over 45,000 cases of domestic abuse in 2022-23, and almost 10,000 sexual offences the previous year. And these are the cases that have been officially recorded; just imagine how much greater the actual figures are.

There are fundamental problems here, in our system and in our society—problems that require much more than empty words. There is an underlying misogyny at the core of this, and I am afraid that the election of President Trump in the US is going to make things much worse as he makes misogynistic attitudes acceptable again.

But this Government can do more, even within the current devolved legislative framework that exists now, and there must be intervention.

There are inevitable factors that influence someone's likelihood of experiencing abuse—health, education, housing—but there is one remaining element that is common in so many of our social problems, namely poverty.

These matters are, to a greater or lesser extent, under the control of the Labour Government here in Wales. So, given that so much of this is within our devolved competence here, why is the situation not improving?

I will be releasing a report shortly that will look in detail at these issues, and look at some of the things that we can do within our current competence. What became clear when compiling the report was the lack of specialist support for victims of crime in Wales. Ninety-four per cent of individuals who experience sexual offences develop PTSD within two weeks. But there are waiting lists that are months long to receive counselling after experiencing violence or abuse.

Furthermore, there is no standardisation between regions. While victims have to wait a whole year for support in Cardiff or Merthyr Tydfil, they only have to wait four months in Swansea. How can we justify someone's trauma being dependent on a postcode lottery?

And worse still, if the victim is a child, only the centres in Colwyn Bay and Cardiff have the capacity to treat children at present. Wales has one of the highest rates of children being seen in our sexual assault referral centres—16 per 1,000 children in north Wales. Compare this to London, where the rate is just 2.9 per 1,000 children.

And there is enough evidence to show that domestic violence perpetrated on children leads to adverse well-being and mental health impacts, leading to additional learning needs, children wetting their beds, leading to an increase in bullying, self-harm or suicidal thoughts, and affecting those children's behaviour. Indeed, the NSPCC has found that one in 5 children have experienced domestic violence, and Childline Cardiff has undertaken over 4,000 counselling sessions in the last year.

On a recent visit to the rape and sexual abuse support centre in Bangor, in north Wales, I was told that they had seen a significant increase in sexual assaults on children, particularly attacks by 11-year-olds on 11 year-olds. But, unfortunately, there is a lack of provision for children who survive domestic violence, despite the fact that our legislation here recognises children as victims of domestic violence and that there is a duty on the public sector to respond.

Of course, this should not be a shock to us. After all, this matter has been raised in the Chamber several times. But where is the action from the Government? There is action that we can take. We can ensure that every school is trauma informed; we can ensure that there is an independent domestic violence advocate in every hospital and that GPs recognise the symptoms of domestic violence in order to act on those symptoms; we can expand successful projects beyond just south Wales and out into other areas of Wales; we can demand Welsh data, not England-and-Wales data, in order to develop Welsh policy and allocate resources more effectively; we can standardise the necessary therapeutic services for children across Wales; and we can ensure that victims have the support and stability that they need to break that vicious cycle. There are things that we can do within our powers, but they're not being acted upon.

But, of course, there are also fundamental weaknesses beyond the Government here, especially the shortcomings in our justice system, within policing and the courts. This is critical. Consider that cases of abuse and sexual crimes are dropped due to a lack of capacity in the courts and prisons. Indeed, the prosecution statistics now suggest that sexual violence, to all intents and purposes, has effectively been legalised. Victims are let down and public trust is eroded. We must therefore demand that the justice system and the resources to operate it be devolved urgently. 

Safety is not a privilege, but a right—a basic right, but one that is denied to far too many of our people, and women and children in particular. I understand that neither our Government nor our Senedd have the full range of powers to be able to completely get rid of domestic violence and sexual violence, but we have here the ability here to do a great deal more than what is being done at present. Let's use those powers that we have to their full potential to ensure that the women and children of Wales receive the help that they need.

Thank you, Mabon, for tabling what's a really important debate, and tabling it ahead of the international day to end violence against women and children, or White Ribbon Day, on 25 November. And I want to extend an open invitation to everybody from the Senedd, everybody who is in this room, to join us in the vigil that we're holding next Monday evening, outside the Senedd. And that happens with the support of the National Federation of Women's Institutes, where we come together every year—and it's well supported—to reflect on what you rightly called the scourge of violence perpetrated by men against women. And it is a national threat, and it is an epidemic. There's no getting away from that. It's deep-rooted, it's wide-reaching, and you've raised that issue eloquently here today. And we're going to hear from on Monday, and stand with, in solidarity, people who are experiencing, or who are survivors from having experienced, domestic abuse, and it takes huge strength of character. But we will also, unfortunately, yet again be mourning the women who have lost their lives, and we must promise—all of us—to never use, excuse or remain silent about men’s violence against women.

I look forward to hearing from the Minister for social justice on the progress that Welsh Government has made and their commitment to this subject, and we’ve heard that the UK Government has a mission to halve the rates of violence against women. So, I hope to learn what discussions are under way with UK Ministers to ensure that funding for essential life-saving support services and prevention work in Wales is secured to that end, but thank you.

As chair of the cross-party group on violence against women and children, I would like to thank Mabon for bringing this important debate before us. We do have to continue to discuss domestic violence, and what's revealed in the report is heartbreaking and unacceptable. I look forward to reading the full report. I would like to invite you to come to the cross-party group perhaps to present the conclusions and recommendations of the report.

And I'm pleased that you raised the impact on children. What you said in terms of the lack of provision, that also partly stems from the fact that there is no sustainable long-term funding for those specialist services that provide support to child survivors. So, the NSPCC has been calling on the Welsh Government, and I'd like to hear the Cabinet Secretary's response to this, to commit to sustainable long-term funding for that specialist support for children and young people who are survivors of domestic violence, because the lack of provision is well known in Wales. Women's Aid Wales say that funding for this crucial support is very inconsistent across Wales. So, thank you Mabon.

Thank you to Mabon for tabling this short debate. I think it’s an incredibly important debate and I was really proud to represent Plaid Cymru at last year’s vigil. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to come to this year’s vigil, but, of course, I wish the very best to Joyce and those who’ll be at the vigil in holding a successful vigil and raising awareness around this.

I think it’s important to recognise that, actually, it is, in large part, men who have to recognise our behaviours and change those behaviours. And I want to touch particularly on culture and its role in this. I mean, look, nobody is perfect, and I’ll hold my hand up—sometimes I have to check myself in some of the things that I might find entertaining and laugh at, in the some way that my mates also need to check their behaviour on what they might laugh at or find entertaining. But what really does worry me, actually, is the corrosive effect of social media, and it’s something that I don’t think we’ve got a handle on just yet. I could pick up my phone right now and look at social media, and straight away, whether it’s YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, you’ll come across something that is clearly being targeted at young men of my age, of my particular background, which is purely misogynistic. I think we’ve seen that especially over the last couple of months with the elections in America. Social media companies are not doing enough to crack down on that sort of content being pushed to people of my age and my gender’s social media pages.

How we actually tackle that is another question. To be fair to Welsh Government, I’m not entirely sure what Welsh Government can do on that front, but I think it is something that we do need to consider as a society and something that we do need to consider when dealing with social media companies, because, right now, it’s unregulated, and, quite simply, they’re getting away with murder.

The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I was very pleased to see this debate tabled today, and I do thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for tabling it and for, yes, calling it 'The scourge of Wales today—violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence'.

It does give us the opportunity to look at ways in which the Government can absolutely take responsibility or at what we can do to ensure that violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence is not just once more at the forefront of our minds—this debate is putting it there—but also that the actions we’re taking are actually making a difference. It's very timely as we head towards the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women. And thank you for reminding us of the vigil on Monday, with the National Federation of Women’s Institutes, Joyce Watson, and for your leadership, as we all recognise across the Chamber, in this campaign.

We do think that Wales has made progress in tackling violence against women and girls, domestic abuse and sexual violence. However, it’s clear so much more needs to be done. The statistics are horrifying. A UK national analysis of the scale of violence against women and girls released in July by the National Police Chiefs’ Council estimated that 2 million women were victims of male violence every year, an epidemic so serious it amounts to a national emergency. On average, a woman is killed by a man in the UK every three days, and the number of recorded offences has grown by 37 per cent in the past five years. And there is no place—there should be no place—in our society for misogyny, harassment or abuse aimed at women and girls, and that’s why we published our national VAWDASV strategy in 2022. And it’s interesting about the societal issues—it has to be a whole-society approach. There has to be a sense of ownership to tackle gender-based violence and abuse. The strategy that we published in 2022 is delivered through a blueprint approach in partnership with policing in Wales, and the approach is led by the VAWDASV national partnership board. I’m delighted to co-chair it along with the south Wales police and crime commissioner, Emma Wools, and previously with Dafydd Llywelyn from Dyfed-Powys. Emma is a committed advocate for tackling and ending VAWDASV, and it is an example of leadership and of us together making a cohesive commitment to tackling these issues.

And Luke Fletcher did comment on culture. Culture is encompassing society’s values, beliefs, principles, how we communicate, how we behave towards one another, and, indeed, our shared well-being and future generations goals recognise the importance of building an equal Wales and a society that enables people to fulfil their potential, no matter what their background or circumstances. There are six objectives set out in the VAWDASV strategy, the fourth of which is to make early intervention and prevention a priority, in line with a public health approach. We’ve expanded our 'Don’t be a bystander' pilot training and awareness raising campaigns with the intention of creating genuine and lasting changes in societal attitudes towards VAWDASV, and I'm pleased to share that sessions have now been delivered to over 250 participants. The pilot runs until March 2026, and I've committed to publishing an evaluation of the effectiveness of this tool. We need to know what works. How can we stop this? 'Don’t be a bystander' is an important tool.

And I think this is important in terms of who we have to influence. You will be aware of our Sound campaign, which has won multiple awards this year, as an example of how we can effectively engage with men and boys across Wales in the discussion to end violence against women and girls. The campaign uses recognisable positive and influential male role models to highlight positive behaviour, focus on problematic behaviours to abuse such as love bombing, gaslighting, and controlling and coercive behaviours. Again, thank you, Luke, for raising this point because, obviously, White Ribbon ambassadors are men. They led that campaign, and we have them, I know, across this Chamber. Phase 2 of the Sound campaign launched in May of this year includes the Sound Lad documentary. Core messaging about engagement and communication is key to changing societal attitudes towards VAWDASV. Phase 3 will focus on the behaviours and harm around public sexual harassment.

I am pleased to say that I’ve met with the UK Minister for victims within the Ministry of Justice, Alex Davies-Jones, in the new UK Government. She is keenly interested in learning more about the Welsh context in relation to this topic, and her being a Welsh MP, but, this afternoon, I met with the UK Minister for victims in the Home Office, Jess Phillips, and I think you will all be aware of her track record in terms of campaigning against violence against women. I do welcome the UK Government's commitment to halve violence against women and girls in the next 10 years. They also want to learn from us, from what we've been doing, because there has not been that commitment previously, in the previous UK Government. So, we're now engaged fully with the UK Government on looking at ways we can work together, devolved and non-devolved.

I think that it was important, Mabon, that you raised the issue of the independent sexual violence advisers and independent domestic violence advisers—ISVAs and IDVAs. We discussed that this afternoon, about understanding the funding base and the consistency we need. That is something where I think we will be able to move forward in terms of addressing that. It should be consistent across Wales, what the specialist services our ISVAs, IDVAs and, indeed, what delivery the policing and the justice system can provide. We've got a fantastic network of regional and specialist victim support services across Wales, and I know that you particularly recognise this, and the specialist services. We need to look at this in terms of our budgets and the responsibilities that we have.

I'm sure you will all join me in welcoming the twentieth anniversary of the Live Fear Free helpline, funded from its inception by the Welsh Government, delivered by Welsh Women's Aid, a free 24/7 service for all victims and survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence and those close to them, including family, friends and colleagues. In the last three months alone, the helpline has received contact from over 3,500 survivors—just in the last three months.

And also, thank you, Mabon, for that powerful story from that young woman, not only of the abuse that she suffered, but, very sadly, the failures of the justice system. Actually, interestingly, I was feeding back to Jess Phillips today that we had evidence from survivors of the failures of the justice system. So, you can be assured that—. I said that I was responding to this debate tonight, and she wished us well. It is really important that we listen to the voices and experience of survivors, and we will do on Monday. So, in our strategy and partnership board, we have a survivor scrutiny involvement panel, led by our national advisers Yasmin Khan and Johanna Robinson, and I do urge you to look at their report, which is being published next week. The survivors are a diverse group of survivors, covering the whole spectrum of abuse and violence, and the panel enables them to help shape policy direction, scrutinise the national strategy, the blueprint, and the progress of the work streams. I think they are the most important people to listen to, as well as, obviously, recognising and respecting the scrutiny of the work that we're doing.

I think it's really important, Sioned Williams, that you raised children and young people, as well as in the main debate from Mabon. We do have a children and young people's needs work stream, really recognising early exposure to abuse and violence's significant impacts on all aspects of the lives of children and young people, and especially in terms of educational attainment and their future prospects. So, thank you for raising that. The work stream is looking at all these issues and engaging with those specialist services, as well.

I think, in Wales, and this was discussed today with our UK Government ministerial colleagues, with relationships and sexuality education, the fact that we are breaking new ground with the statutory requirement within the curriculum, making it mandatory for all learners and developing healthy relationships from an early age will help change our culture for the better. The Welsh Government funds Stori Cymru's Spectrum project, promoting the importance of healthy relationships. If we can't address this early enough in schools with our children and young people, as well as supporting them with that, in terms of the change of attitudes and awareness, as well as supporting them if they are experiencing abuse in their homes—. I mean, this is where we have got to stand up and work together.

Just finally, Llywydd, we need a workforce across Wales, the whole public sector, that understands their role and interventions available to them to tackle VAWDASV. I think you probably, like we have across the Chamber in our groups, had 'Don't be a bystander' training, and we know that there's a lot that everybody can do, not in terms of the public, but in terms of our public services. The national training framework does actually reach out to those in front-line services, in positions of responsibility, with training resources to deliver effective interventions. Since 2016, we've had more than 307,000 professionals across Wales accessing that training, so those professionals are now more knowledgeable, more aware and more confident to respond to those experiencing VAWDASV. But, of course, that means that we need to ensure that all our public services do engage with that.

Finally, bringing an end to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in a generation would require us to look at the whole system, which reflects the experience of victims and survivors better, as well as that of providers. It asks for efforts from all parts of society. Thank you very much, Llywydd.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary. That brings the short debate to an end, and brings our proceedings to a close. Thank you.