Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I'd like to welcome Members to committee this morning. I move to item 1 and, within that, I should also say that, under Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public should be excluded from this meeting in order to protect public health, but this meeting is being broadcast on Senedd.tv. If there is a technical issue with my feed this morning, we've previously agreed that Joyce Watson will stand in as a temporary Chair. We have one apology this morning from Hefin David, and if there are any Members with any interests to declare, please say now. Thank you.

In that case, we move, therefore, to item 2, and there are a few papers to note. One is a letter from James Price, the chief executive of Transport for Wales, updating us on issues around rail that occurred last week. I should say James Price will be with us in two weeks' time at committee, but that paper is just to note. And 2.2 is a letter from the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and it's with regard to COVID-19 regulations, and it's not a letter we need to respond to; it's just one for us to note. Are Members happy to note those two letters? Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.

In that case, I move to item 3, and this is with regard to our piece of work on COVID-19 recovery, and this is a session on recovery for all. This is our eighth session, actually, in terms of this inquiry, and this is our second of two sessions looking at the equality issues with regard to the COVID recovery. The first session was two weeks ago. So, I would like to welcome the witnesses who have agreed to be with us this morning. Thank you very much for your time. And if I could just ask you to introduce yourselves for the public record, I'll come to you in the order that you appear on my screen. So, would you like to introduce yourselves? If I go to Ginger, Shavanah and then Ali. Ginger.

Hi. My name is Ginger Wiegand. I work with Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team Wales—EYST Wales—in a policy and research role.

And Shavanah.

Thank you, Chair. I'm Shavanah Taj. I am the general secretary of the Wales Trades Union Congress, but today I am here in my capacity as the vice-chair of the First Minister's black, Asian and minority ethnic COVID-19 advisory group.

Hi, Chair. My name is Ali Abdi. I'm a community organiser with Citizens Cymru Wales. I'm also a national BAME youth forum lead for Wales. Thank you.

Thanks ever so much for being with us. Perhaps I could ask a very open question to start with, which perhaps allows you to make any key points that you want to, as well, right at the beginning of the meeting. But it's really how the pandemic has highlighted, perhaps, existing economic inequalities and perhaps how the pandemic has created new ones, and then how you see those challenges and how you think those challenges can be and should be overcome. So, I'm going to ask each of you to speak to that first opening question, if that's all right. I should say, if you want to come in at any point, then just raise your hand and I'll raise my hand back to say that I've seen you as well. Don't feel you have to come in on every question, but this is an opening one that I think perhaps you all might want to come in on. Who would like to take a stab at this first? I'll come to Shavanah first because you've already been to committee on this piece of work and so you're familiar with our set-up. Shavanah.

I sure am. Thank you, Chair. Just to say that, as far as COVID-19 is concerned, I think, firstly, it's important that we do welcome the fact that the Welsh Government took a decision to do something slightly differently to the UK Government, in that it responded to the call that was coming from the grass roots and the trade unions that we needed to pull together a group of people to at least start looking at the real issues as far as the socioeconomic factors that were impacting black and Asian BME communities here in Wales. Subsequently, the First Minister decided that they would actually pull together a group, and that group has gone on. There was a report that was produced back in June 2020. Subsequent to that, there has been a response by the Welsh Government and the First Minister, and there has been an agreement that we will move on and actually start working on the series of recommendations that were made.

But as far as COVID-19 itself is concerned, COVID has highlighted existing economic inequalities, and actually created new ones. Just to reference some research that the TUC itself has actually done—again, this is research that we used as far as the particular report and reference is concerned as well—our research has highlighted that one in eight BAME women working in the UK are in insecure roles in comparison to one in 16 women and one in 18 white men. BAME women, we know, have been overly exposed, are at higher risk of being exposed to coronavirus or losing their jobs during the public health crisis, and many of these positions are actually in critical front-line roles, such as health and social care. The number of deaths amongst BME nurses, for example, and care workers, speak for themselves. The Office for National Statistics figures are there for all to see.

And, of course, there's further research that has been conducted as well by Manchester university that found that black people are almost twice at risk of dying from coronavirus than white people. The British Medical Journal report itself has also discovered that pregnant black women were eight times more likely to be admitted to hospital with COVID-19 than pregnant white women, with pregnant Asian women being four times more likely.

So, as to the grass-roots organisations, many of the individuals that have been involved in this work to date here in Wales and across the UK, and the unions and the TUC, have all been calling for the Government to implement concrete measures to actually address the structural inequality, racism and discrimination that exist. We have been warning for a very long time, even before COVID-19, that it is extremely difficult for workers who are particularly on insecure, precarious contracts to push for their right to safe working conditions. For many of those individuals, because of the types of work that they do, including key workers, it's very difficult for them to take time off, to look after their children, if childcare providers are closed and so forth, or schools are closed, or they're having to self-isolate or shield. It makes their lives a lot harder when they don't actually have access. So, whilst there are initiatives such as, for example, the £500 payment that has recently been agreed for workers who need to self-isolate, £500 is not enough to make ends meet for those individuals, particularly because of the fact that they are more often than not in low-paid work, and often stuck in those positions. What the report has highlighted—

I'm sorry, Shavanah. I'm just conscious we've got quite a few questions. Can I come back to you on that a bit later on if we dig into some of the detail? If you just want to briefly finish off, but I'm just conscious we've got a lot to get through before—

Yes, just to say that I think that there is some good work that has now commenced. We are going through a process, for example, in drafting up an equality action plan. Lots of things will happen, but there are a number of recommendations that have been highlighted within the report—for example, that we need a race disparity unit and that we need to look at the inequalities that exist within our structures. Until we actually grapple with those issues—. We can't just have a light touch on these matters; we do need to grapple with them very deeply.

Apologies for rushing you. I'm just conscious that we can dig into some of that later on as well. Ali, would you like to—? Sorry, Ginger, I think you've indicated. Would you like to go next?

Okay, thank you. Just to reiterate that, obviously, I concur and completely agree with everything that Shavanah has just said, but talking about increasing inequalities, I would just bring light to the fact that, given that ethnic minority workers have been hit harder and have been over-represented in sectors that are more likely to close, as well as those sectors that have key workers, they have really been bearing the brunt of this. The research by Runnymede Trust in August 2020 also underlines much of the research that's been done by other organisations, so these are messages that are coming from all angles that have been evidenced in so many ways. The fact that, in addition, when ethnic minority people and workers are getting hit by this wave, it's also in a position where their work has been precarious, has been more precarious compared to white workers for years, and it's often in households where there is less wealth—so, there's a lot of evidence that there's less wealth already in ethnic minority households, particularly in households headed by BAME women, and this really needs to be taken into account. All of this needs to be taken into account when crafting solutions in the reconstruction.

So, what we would argue is that the pressing concerns short term are—. I'm just saying that people need certainty. Income needs to be guaranteed, but as well, the research by Runnymede also showed that ethnic minority groups have been less likely to hear about relief and benefits that are COVID-related than white workers, and so there is still work to be done about making sure that rights and entitlements are communicated to people properly, and that all people that are entitled to them are accessing them, particularly ethnic minority workers.

We would also say that there are pressing concerns for young people, as young people as well are likely to be over-represented in precarious sectors—young people at all levels of the job spectrum, from graduates to young people who are working in retail, working in hospitality and front-line sectors.

Thank you, Ginger. Ali, are there other points that you can add to what's been said as well?

No, I feel they really said what needs to be said for that question. I think the recommendations in the report mentioned by Shavanah, if they're taken forward, will definitely make a difference to the recovery. A lot of people, a lot of experts have fed into that report, and it's a really good report to really take things forward here in Wales.

Thank you, Ali. Apologies again, I'm cutting you off—I asked such a wide question, so it's hard to do that, I appreciate, in the time you've got. Suzy Davies.

Thank you, Chair. Welcome, everybody. Just listening to those comments then, would it be fair to say that the support for businesses in particular from Welsh and UK Governments hasn't really reached those BAME workers in the way that perhaps we might expect? I'm trying to work out why, when this business support is generic, particular sectors that have a heavy representation of BAME workers don't seem to have had the benefits from it. Anyone want to comment on that?

Who would like to address that point? Ginger.

I might bring up another question and hope that Ali and Shavanah can come in and have some views on this as well. First of all, I was actually looking for this last night, and it may have been that I didn't quite find it, but I think that there are real questions. I think we really need to question how these programmes are being monitored. Are ethnicity and race being monitored properly? We know that, in the past, there have been massive gaps in data relating to ethnicity. Now, sometimes that's because the question isn't being asked in the first place, sometimes it's an issue of even the person who is administering the programme or the project not having effectively communicated to people the reason why it's important to gather this information, or there's not enough trust for a person to give that information over. So, I think there are questions around this. I don't know the answer right now as to do we know to what extent businesses, BAME-owned businesses, have been benefiting from the business relief, but it's certainly something that needs to be looked at and I think if it's not being collected right now, then the authorities need to make sure that, going forward, that really happens. 

Okay. Ali, did you want to come in on this point at all?

I think Ginger raised a really good point there that I think relates to a lot of the other questions as well in relation to the impacts of COVID and the crisis. They aren't uniform across the different ethnological groups and often, when you aggregate them all together, it misses the important differences. So, we need to understand why these differences exist for different communities, and particularly where we're looking to inform policy and looking to address these inequalities.

Shavanah. 

What I can say is that I think some of the difficulty has been that the support for businesses needed to be—people needed that support. So, there was a bit of a shift towards trying to get as much support out to businesses and for people to be able to access it really quickly. So, I know that there is some work that is currently being conducted by the Welsh Government department that is responsible for trying to actually do a bit of analysis to see exactly which types of businesses have benefited, who are those businesses owned by and so forth. But I think that some of this, anecdotally, based on the range of different conversations and online sessions that a range of different organisations have been holding have told us and do tell us that there has been some confusion over what type of support was available at the start. Now, I think, that we're in the third stage of this, the information is a bit more clear, so there is some clarity, but I do think that there needs to be some analysis done. But equally, for those businesses, particularly those businesses that are white-owned businesses, I think there needs to be some conditionality attached to some of this, and that's what goes into support that is received, which is public money, at the end of the day. And I think if we go back to the report, one of the recommendations was that, for anyone that is in receipt of support from the Welsh Government, there should be some conditions attached to that in terms of equality and diversity, and trying to make improvements as far as their staffing levels are concerned as well. So, I think there are two different elements to this. 

That's really helpful. What I was trying to get at, and I think you've answered it, to be fair, is: is there just something intrinsic in the way that these packages are structured that inadvertently disadvantages people from BAME backgrounds, or are they so open that it does allow unscrupulous employers to actually be directly discriminatory, regardless of whether they're black or white employers? And I guess the answer is 'yes' to both of those, possibly, then.  

Yes, I think that the processes do need to be looked at and they do need to be tightened up. Equality impact assessments are extremely important and they shouldn't be an afterthought. And what we're more often than not finding is that that is what happens. So, it's not until something terrible happens and, as you say, you have some—. I'm not saying that every single business owner out there is a bad boss at all—we've dealt with some really good businesses and really good employers who do go through the correct processes and procedures and reach out if they are confused about something. But then there are some that do put profit over the needs of the workers and don't actually find that happy balance that can be reached. So, I do think that there are some processes—procedural stuff—that need tightening up. 

Okay, thank you. And, then, just finally from me, obviously the report has come up with some suggestions to make next steps much fairer. Have you got anything else you want to sort of bring to the table during this session about what steps could be taken to improve this?

Well, one of the things that I would say is that, as far as the report is concerned, one of the recommendations within that report was that Welsh Government should set up a race disparity unit. I know that the UK Government had considered it, but it's kind of been put on hold, or we're not quite sure if that's going to happen or not. But here in Wales, we have got an opportunity to do something different. So, that's something that we can do. I think that that will send out a very clear, loud message. Equally, I think that one of the things within the report makes reference to the possibilities of having a race equality champion, or a race equality commissioner, and I think that that is something that definitely needs to be explored.

I think there are some real opportunities going forward, particularly given that we don't seem to see— . At this moment in time, whilst, yes, we are in the middle of a public health pandemic, we're dealing with these massive issues, there's also the aftermath, and, therefore, racism and inequality is something that we're going to be dealing with for a very long time yet. So, if we put those measures in place, I'm confident that we can make some improvements. 

Thank you. 

And Joyce Watson. 

Good morning, everybody. You started, which I expected, to talk about some of the actions that the Welsh Government can take, and they've outlined some, and they've responded to that report. So, I would like to give you all an opportunity now to discuss more widely what you think will help, and really focus on what maybe we should be supporting you in the most urgent actions going forward. 

Who would like to start addressing that point? Thank you, Ali. 

Thank you, Joyce. I can talk from young people's perspective if you like, in the first instance. And I think education and programme training is hugely important for young people. We know education is being disturbed at the moment with breaks due to COVID outbreaks in school. So, education is being affected immensely. So, we need to support these young people outside in the community as well. We need to support them with opportunities to learn and get digital access as much as possible. We need to support their parents in understanding the curriculum, and improving relationships between the school and education system and their families, and using community groups. There are grass-roots community groups who are not getting access to resources. Currently, a lot of the resources are going directly to schools, which is fantastic to support the schools and helping the children, but there's nothing in the community to support grass-roots community groups to help play their role too. And they're ready to play their role, but they significantly haven't got those resources to help plug the education inequalities that are there. 

In terms of employment and training apprenticeships, we need to make them more accessible. We know young people from BAME communities are very under-represented when it comes to apprenticeships. We need to make them accessible, we need to make them available. Where they are available, we need to make sure that people can access them from these communities. What are the current barriers that we know that exist to be able to get these young people who are now exploring alternative opportunities because of the struggle with getting to university et cetera?

And opportunities in terms of jobs—and I think Shavanah touched on it earlier—when we're giving out these contracts and opportunities, we need to have contracts in these funding opportunities, like the cultural contract given to the arts, that they are looking at that diversity and inclusion, that they are putting in place BAME applications and tackling bias in recruitment. We're hearing time and time again from young people who are skilled, who've got the qualifications, that they're not getting through to opportunities because they believe their foreign-sounding name or where they live is implicating their opportunities. And it's really saddening to hear that, and I suppose, particularly now, with the pandemic, that's only going to increase. 

So, if we can address those issues. And I'd particularly just to add to that as well issues around mental health and well-being, and support again to get early access, and just making it more accessible and really making use of local organisations and leaders in the community, because there's some real value in grass-roots support of communities. Because they're going to be there long after national organisations are there. So, I'd just touch on that. Thank you.

Do you have any further questions, Joyce?

Not on this, no. I'll have one later on.

That's fine. Suzy, did you want to come in on this point?

Yes. Ali, I don't know whether you can give me a fairly short answer to this one, but what would be your top reason—top explanation, I should say—for why training and apprenticeships need to be more accessible? Is there anything specific that's preventing young people from BAME backgrounds seeking these out and, actually, securing them at the moment? I'm sure we could have a much longer answer, but if there's a short one, that would be great.

I support quite a lot of young people in my role in the community and signpost these opportunities. But they're often not easily accessible. They are available, it's just finding out where they are, to have a central resource to be able to say to young people, 'Go to this platform, pick that location, and that's where all the apprenticeships are'. Year after year, we're hearing that young people aren't accessing apprenticeships from BME communities. Where are these opportunities? Where are they being advertised? Who is being signposted to them? I think they often go to colleges as well, and then the colleges—dependent on which trade you're choosing—your college lecturer, or your tutor, will signpost you to them. If you're not in that environment, you're not going to find out about it. So, I think, if I've not heard about it, I'm sure many of the young people I'm engaging with are not going to hear about it either.

Okay, that's really helpful. Thank you.

Helen Mary Jones.

Sorry; I thought I was going to get automatically unmuted then, and I didn't—I apologise. You've begun to touch on specifics—things that need to be done. Obviously, it's part of this committee's role to make recommendations to Welsh Government about what they need to change themselves, in terms of their policy, their spending. So, I wonder if you can—the three of you—give me a couple of specific things that you think this committee ought to be recommending that Welsh Government does to address some of these inequalities that you've been highlighting. And I wonder if anyone has any comments as well on whether the reconstruction plan, as it exists, addresses those issues sufficiently, and should we be making recommendations to Welsh Government for some additions to that or some modifications to that? I don't know who wants to start. Shavanah looks keen.

I think that one of the things that's important for me to mention is taxi drivers, actually. And the reason why I mention taxi drivers is because they are classed as self-employed. Ninety per cent of those drivers are older workers, they are from BAME backgrounds—and when I say 90 per cent, I'm talking about Cardiff and Newport specifically, with 40 per cent of them in the Vale as well—and there's some further data that's currently being collected more widely. Now, those workers are currently not classed as far as the wider Transport for Wales infrastructure is concerned and they're almost like an add-on—because they're self-employed, they don't fall under the direct responsibility of Welsh Government. But what we have found is that we've seen drivers who have died from COVID, and many people have been [Inaudible.] because of the fact that, when it comes to their workplace, their workplace is their vehicle, and that is the only place where they can work in order to make a bit of money. Now, at the moment, those workers have been detrimentally impacted because some of the sectors that they rely on for trade have been shut down and haven't been able to reopen. So, that's impacted them. So, they're having to work longer hours to try and make a little bit of money. But, at the moment, we have a situation where they can't actually make their workplace, which is their vehicle, COVID secure because they don't actually have the financial means to do that in the first place. There is something the Welsh Government could do, which I know that in Northern Ireland has happened, and with the Scottish Government it's happened, where some financial dedicated grant support has been provided to those individuals so they can put up screens in their vehicles and they can have appropriate PPE and so forth. So, that's one group of workers that I would like to mention.

The other thing I would say is that, on foodbanks in particular, those that have been set up because of the fact that existing foodbanks were not culturally and religiously appropriate, there have been a range of different foodbanks that have been set up, including in Grangetown and Butetown by community organisations, and we need to be looking to make sure that those groups are properly supported as well.

Now, again, I've referenced women already, but there is real gap as far as support for BAME women is concerned. But moving on to the point about shovel-ready projects that have often been mentioned, I don't think that we have seen enough detail yet to actually understand what is going to be available. We have had some early discussions with Ken Skates, the Minister, and with Julie James as well, who have agreed that there does need to be some real thought given in terms of what we can do to reach out to those individuals who could potentially access jobs in these areas and what that will look like. But they're very early; we haven't got the details yet.

So, I think that if the Welsh Government is serious about building back better, it needs to be done equitably and it needs to be done inclusively and we all need to be seen as Welsh workers, because at the moment, sometimes, it just doesn't feel like that. 

And without wishing to put words in anybody's mouth, presumably, that needs to happen pretty quickly. Because if we are going to be starting on some of this infrastructure work and developing, with regard to care and some of the other things that people have been talking about, that's got to to happen quickly, hasn't it, potentially? Ali and Ginger, do you want to come back on my original question about what we ought to be asking the Welsh Government specifically to do? Ginger.

Thank you. Just, again, I completely agree. I just want to underline what great points I think both Ali and Shavanah have made in the last two statements that they have made on the importance of supporting community groups who are so close to the people who they work with. So, obviously, job creation and rebuilding is going to be really, really important, and it's going to be important that those jobs are jobs that have progression opportunities. I think this would be my one point that I'd really want to make—to factor progression into this. If there's nowhere to move on in a job, then we need to find new jobs. So, just to reiterate that. But to say that one potential that we see—. There are so many potentials to invest in the economy and we have an opportunity here to rebuild some of the sectors of our society that have been gutted by austerity, and we need them—we really need them. We need to rebuild the youth and community sector. Our kids need it.

But one opportunity potentially is investing in education and investing in education workforce. There's really important and interesting work going on right now, looking at BAME curriculum—I'm not going to get the name of the group exactly correct; there are so many groups right now—by the group that is led by Professor Charlotte Williams, working on looking at BAME contributions in the new curriculum. And I think one thing that is coming up—it's come up for EYST over the years, as well as, I know, for numerous people in organisations—is that we really need more BAME educators in our workforce. I think this could potentially be an opportunity to look at ways to achieve that.

Thank you. Ali, did you want to add anything to that in terms of what we should be asking the Welsh Government to do? I'm sure you'd agree with Ginger's point about the youth and community sector. I know I do.

Yes, absolutely. Some of the conversations—. I think the key is that the conversations need to continue as well and continue to include people like us in these conversations so that it helps to steer things in the right place. I think that is really, really important. I think if we're definitely going to come out of this in a better place, we really do need to involve people who know what's happening on the ground—knows this really, really well—before resources are committed even, because that's really, really important, and because, often, things get committed and then it's too late to turn back, and we might have to wait another three or four years before some things can be done.

Thank you.

Thank you. Joyce Watson.

We've already—

Sorry, Joyce—Ginger wanted to come in, I think, with an additional comment. Is that right, Ginger?

I'll be very quick. I just do want to say it is great to look to the future and look at how we rebuild in the short, medium and long terms, and I think that because you're asking specifically about the Welsh Government—. I think it's excellent that the race equality plan is forthcoming in the way that it's being co-produced, the way that it's building on work that has been done over past years, that has been called for for so many years, but I just wanted to stress that there is an immediate need and there is going to be an immediate need to support workers who are affected by subsequent lockdowns. I'm going to defer to Shavanah to take up the specifics about this, but I'd just say that we know the workers that are being more impacted by this, we know that we need to measure it, and we know that we need to make sure that the support that is going to guarantee their income in the short term is going to be there.

That probably leads well into Joyce Watson's questions. Joyce Watson. 

It does lead into my question because we're talking about fair work and exactly what the Government needs to do. I'm going to throw you a curveball here, because whenever governments talk about building back the economy, they're actually talking about building, about construction. As somebody who knows a little bit about construction and the workforce, all the evidence tells us that not only are females missing from the construction industry—which they are, in large numbers; 1 per cent—but also people from the minority communities are also missing from construction. So, with that in mind—as I say, I've led you down a path, so to speak—what do you feel needs to happen when the Government, any government, is talking about building back fair work, and what particular focus would you like us to take to feed back to Government?

Shavanah.

That's a really good question, actually. When we talk about construction, I do agree—there are a number of people who are completely missing as far as the picture of the workforce is concerned. But there is group that we haven't yet mentioned, and that is the Roma/Gypsy/Traveller community. Now, there are a number of workers from that community, particularly male workers, who do work in construction—many people who work in that area of work work in unsafe work environments. They are lucky if they get the minimum wage, let alone the real living wage. Many of them will be working on zero-hour contracts, and I think that this goes back to the wider, bigger issues as well. As far as statutory sick pay, for example, is concerned, we always say that that should be uplifted to the real living wage, and it should be no less than £320 a week. Universal credit needs to be lifted too. They are those types of things that I know that Welsh Government can't directly control, but they can continue to lobby the UK Government to do better on, and I think that would help.

As far as the work sector is concerned—and, Joyce, as you say correctly, this is about fair work—there was the Fair Work Commission that was set up by the Welsh Government. There were a range of different recommendations that came out of that, and I don't want us to forget about those recommendations, and they should be absolutely, fundamentally embedded and at the forefront of any of the work that we do as far as building back better is concerned. And, again, if we are going to be awarding contracts to construction companies and other businesses and so forth, there should be some conditions attached to that, and, within those conditions, you can bed a range of different asks, and then, as a result, make improvements both for the immediate and longer term.

But, equally, going back to the point Ginger and Ali have made about education, this is also an opportunity for us to upskill and reskill people and it's an opportunity then to plug that gap. So, if we know what type of future we want for Wales, what are those types of projects, where are the skills gaps at the moment, we can then reach out to the appropriate individuals where we know that that demographic is currently under-represented or not represented at all.

So, this is not about having jobs just for the sake of jobs; this is about having good-quality jobs that, as Ginger says, and as Ali has said, have a series of progression as well. What we don't want is for people to be stuck at entry point and then can't move forward or be working for an agency that mistreats them. We know that so many of the individuals that I work with on the business side who have previously said, 'But zero-hours contracts are a quite good thing; they're flexible' et cetera—that may well be, however, they themselves have now said that, actually, they're a real problem when something like this happens, when we are in the middle of a global public health pandemic. So, I think that we need to deal with those social factors and the economic factors together. 

Do you have any further questions, Joyce?

Just one more. I want to feed this back to Ali, because you said, quite rightly, that it's about an information gap, really, in terms of opportunities, and bearing in mind what I've just said, it's always the case that we're going to build back—which means building—always. So, how can we help or what can we tell Government to do to help young people who might not be aware of their opportunities because there's this gap in knowledge? So, what's the real focus that you would like to see to help address that knowledge gap in terms of the recommendation that we can make, particularly for young people, who already are coming out as one of the hardest-hit groups in terms of unemployment, both now, immediately, and in the future?

Thanks, Joyce. I think the key is actually employing them. I think young people know young people best in terms of how to reach out to them, and the platforms they're on at the moment. I think we can use the best platforms you like and put things on the Welsh Government website, Careers Wales, et cetera, et cetera, but young people and the changing generation now are on TikTok and Snapchat for engagement; this is where they're sharing things now—and Instagram. This is where young people are familiar and comfortable, and we have to be on those levels with those young people.

I think young people—we need to value their contribution. So, if there are resources available, we have to employ them and support them in terms of disseminating that information to their peers and to people like them. Right now, there's a lot of social influence, if you like, from young celebrities who are now internet famous, who are now disseminating information to younger audiences, even around COVID and things like this. So, we really need to value young people, we need to understand where they're getting their resources from, where they're getting their information from, and really embed things into there.

I just want to add as well, in terms of the construction industry, which you mentioned, for sure, I've come across many, many young people who have gone on to college and have really struggled to get a placement with a construction business or an organisation. So, they go to a college, they'll study for two years and they'll do a trade, but, actually, they can't pass that trade unless they get a company that employs them for a whole year paid, but they're not informed of that when they're first starting. So, if I'm a young person now and I want to go and do plumbing, I'll go to college, I'll sign up, and it's only when they get to their third year, when they start sending letters out, that they find out, 'Actually, nobody's replying back to me', and they end up then going to a call centre, or worse still not doing anything at all.

And time and time again, we're finding many young people in their communities in the southern half of the city who are aspiring to get into the construction trade who are coming up against this brick wall, if you like—excuse the pun. So, it's embedding those contracts early enough, but also getting a commitment, I think, from the colleges to make sure there is a job ready for those young people at the end of those courses, so no young person who signs up for plumbing, who signs up for a construction trade, leaves college in the third year without a guaranteed employer taking them on. I think it's really, really important. 

Thank you, Joyce. Vikki Howells.

Thank you, Chair. So, we talked about the need for upskilling and reskilling for groups that have faced barriers in that regard in the past, and Ali, you've given some suggestions around that, and that's just what I want to explore, really, to tie all this up. When we're making recommendation to the Welsh Government, we're looking for more concrete ideas from you about how we can ensure that the skills system in Wales contributes to that more equal recovery and how we can actually break through the barriers that groups have faced in the past.

If I can ask you, Ali, a specific question on the example you just gave now. If we are facing a recession and there aren't that many jobs available for plumbers, would you then suggest to colleges that they need to restrict the entry, to make sure that there's a job available for everyone who goes on to that course, and if so, where would you see other sectors that people could be funnelled into? I don't know who wants to start with that.

You've addressed part of that question to Ali, so Ali, do you want to go first?

I'll touch on the element on construction. So, I think the stipulation is it has to be a paid placement. I know young people who have said to me, 'I'm living at home. I'll go and work for that construction company for free', but the stipulation of the college course is you have to find a paid employer to take you on for a year. Some young people are ready and prepared to work free for a construction firm just to pass that third year, so they've got their qualification and they can go and then work for themselves if they like—self-employment—or go and find a job thereafter. So, I think it's having a look at the stipulation, and saying can they actually go and work in an organisation for free. I know it's tough in this climate, but there are some young people ready and prepared to do that, just to get their qualification, because otherwise, it would have been a wasted time in the college spending those two years there, leaving then with absolutely nothing.

Does anybody else want to come in on Vikki's wider question? Shavanah.

Just to say that, as a trade unionist, I wouldn't recommend that anyone works for free, although I do understand and appreciate the sort of double jeopardy, almost, that people find themselves in. And if anything, I think what Ali has just said demonstrates to you the real level of desperation that there is out there. People are desperate to make a living, to try and get on to the jobs ladder. Regardless of what background you come from, young people at this point in time are—potentially, it's going to take 30 to 40 years before they can actually even get to the point that maybe other people, including those of my age in their 40s, could get to. It's going to be really tough. So, what I wouldn't want is for stipulations to be attached whereby, 'Well, okay, you're going to work for free', because actually, not everyone can afford to be in that situation. But I do think that we need to look at this, look at a range of different opportunities, to see what we can do. But yes, I wouldn't want to add to the burden of some of the bad practices that we currently have, for example, like zero-hours contracts, which we know have caused lots of problems.

Ginger, did you want to come in on this point at all?

If I can refresh my mind about the question; can you repeat the question one more time in its original form, Vikki?

Yes, of course. So, we've been talking about the need for upskilling and retraining, and I'm just looking for some more concrete examples of how you think that we should be looking to overcome the barriers that groups like this are facing.

Okay. It's an interesting question, because I almost hear this, on the one hand, looking at what the labour market is requiring and needing, and on the other hand, looking at the kinds of jobs that people are going for and want to do. And I think actually, ultimately—. I hope I'm going to say this in a way that makes sense. Actually, I do think Ali was onto something when he said, 'Hire young people to reach young people'. But then, I also think that young people really are key in this, as well as people who may need to retrain and who may need to go into new sectors.

But,I do think going and talking to people, to the people who are the labour force, is actually a really important part of this, and co-producing how this actually happens. You know, what sectors do young people want do develop, rather than looking at X, Y, Z or growth sectors in the international economy right now? I'm sure that there are going to be people in this room who will disagree with me, and I welcome, I guess, debate on that. But, just looking at where potential might be, I think there's actually potential to do investment in a way that actually can potentially rectify some of the structural inequalities that we are talking about.

TUC has a great report out right now about investing in decarbonisation and investing in infrastructure and housing, and actually housing is something where there are massive inequalities along lines of race and ethnicity, as well as other sectors. So, let's use this investment fund to actually target and rectify the inequalities that actually happen here. Let's figure out where there are health disparities, let's put money into it, let's find out what skills are needed there and get the right people in there to do that—and those people are going to look like that community, actually, if you're doing it right.

So, just to mention one other thing. I think the thing that—. Rebuilding is all about construction; yes, of course. But, we need to construct more than just our physical buildings and our roads; we need to reconstruct the social fabric of our society, and, actually, the arts and culture industry is going to be part of that. This an area where we've talked about representation and representation of multiple perspectives, viewpoints, people, and you can bring new people into that industry to start rebuilding and reimagining it. 

Thank you, Ginger. Vikki, did you have any further questions before I bring Joyce in? 

No, thank you.

Joyce Watson.

In the name of equality and balance, we've talked—and I support it—about young people and their place in the employment sector, but I think we need to also focus on the fact, as we started with it, that a lot of people have lost their jobs and will need retraining, and those people will not be young people; those people will be older women from the minority ethnic communities, which we are discussing today. So, if you have something, and I'm sure you do, in terms of advising us about the reskilling of the older workforce that we can then take to Government, now is your chance to tell us.

And if you can use this opportunity to make any final comments, or also any comments that you think are relevant to our piece of work that have not been drawn out through questions. Now is the time to make these as we bring the meeting to a close. Shavanah.

I think that organisations like Women Connect First have been doing some really good work for a number of years in terms of targeting women, and working with older women in particular to try and retrain them and to support them to get into employment in the first place. My worry and concern, really, is that the figures at the moment look pretty grim, and as Ken Stakes, the Minister for economy and skills, predicted, there's likely to be at least a 10 per cent reduction in the number of people who are going to be in work come January next year, and I think that actually the figures are possibly going to be even worse than that.

So, when we talk about upskilling and reskilling people, I think that there are some real opportunities, and it goes back to the points that Ginger made about the public sector too. There are a number of areas where we do currently have some gaps as far as the workforce is concerned and we could do with making improvements on, particularly when it comes to representation. Teaching is one of those areas, but equally, there are still a number of opportunities across the Welsh Government departments—departments and areas that they have direct control over. I think that the apprenticeship programme, the apprenticeship scheme that was set up within Welsh Government itself specifically for BAME workers, to encourage them to come on board. I think that projects like that were good; we can build on those. Let's use some of those best-practice examples across other parts of the public sector where we have got gaps and we can make improvements on. I think there are some existing opportunities and we're going to need more workers in our NHS and our social care, and within our education and local authorities as well. So, this is not just about the private sector and us reconstructing; I think we can build on some of the areas that we have got some responsibility for already.

Okay, thank you. And any brief final comments as well from Ginger or Ali? Just answer briefly, because we're just about out of time. Don't feel that you have to make any additional comments if you feel like we've covered it all, but, if you have something to say, then say so now. Ali.

Yes, thank you, Russell. Just to add on the upskilling and support and the older members of the community as well, I think, yes, definitely, it's vital. Shavanah mentioned about the taxi trade and taxi drivers now really struggling in that trade. I suppose now is as good a time as any to really be looking at what you could pick up as a skill, to really look at where the economy is going and what roles and opportunities there will be in the future, and supporting them with those opportunities, whether it's digital literacy as well, because many of these will have been out of education for a very long time. So, how can we support them? We supported children when they were off school with digital devices—well, you know, adults are going to need the same. They're going to need digital devices, they're going to need support, they're going to need to be signposted to different training programmes being run by the various different organisations that are funded by Welsh Government and the colleges, which have got free courses—there are a lot of free opportunities to learn, so how can we really signpost and support those who can, you know—? Already, I think there are definitely people who are probably really now having those conversations in their households about, 'What can I do tomorrow? What can I start doing?' So, I think that's probably something we can do right away in terms of really galvanising that interest and support and signposting them to those opportunities. Thank you.

Thank you, Ali. And Ginger, any final comments, if you want to make any.

Yes. The only—. I guess a comment would be that, in addition to strengthening jobs and skills and high-quality jobs, it's also about strengthening the social safety net. That has to go hand in hand. So, this project of reconstruction is about extending rights for workers and for people who are not in work. And, if we look at things—things that maybe used to seem radical, like universal basic income, or guaranteed income—maybe take a look at those things that did seem a little bit radical a couple of years ago, but maybe they're looking like something that could actually be really useful right now. But also that giving workers—. Fair work means giving workers power in the workplace, so, obviously, unions are one way to do that. But, as well, looking at ways that businesses are organised that are innovative, that are community-focused and that are co-operative, where workers actually share in the profits of those—of the labour that they put in.

Absolutely—understood. Thank you, Ginger. Well, can I thank all of our witnesses for taking part in this session this morning? We appreciate your time. We'll make sure that we send you a copy of the transcript and by all means review it and come back to us if there are any additional points that you think are relevant to our work. But thank you ever so much for your time with us this morning. 

With that, we'll take a short 10-minute break and if I can ask Members to come back in about eight minutes so that we can start the next session sharply. So, diolch yn fawr.

Croeso, bawb. Welcome back. We move to item 4 in regard to our COVID-19 recovery. This is our twelfth session, and this is a panel particularly looking at the green recovery in terms of the recovery in terms of all aspects to do with the economy, infrastructure and skills.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses who have agreed to be with us on this panel, and if I could just ask them to introduce themselves, please, for the public record. Haf.

Sophie.

I'm Sophie Howe and I'm the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales. Bore da, bawb.

Tabea.

Tabea Wilkes. Good morning. I'm nature policy officer for RSPB Cymru, and I'm also here in my capacity as co-chair for the Wales Environment Link green recovery working group.

Lovely. Thanks for being with us. So, I'll ask the first question. What should a green recovery look like? Who wants to address that first? Sophie, please.

[Inaudible.]

Oh, you just—. I think you were on and then you clicked off.

There we are. Okay. Sorry. I was going to say I'm happy to come in, Chair, if that helps. 

We've set out—well, prior to the COVID pandemic—a template plan to tackle the climate and nature emergency, and, since the COVID pandemic, a five-point plan in terms of priorities for recovery—[Interruption.] Oh, sorry; my Siri's going off. That focuses on an economic stimulus that should do a number of things: create jobs, decarbonise, and enhance, maintain and restore nature.

We believe that a significant area for investment here should be around the retrofit of homes, because that has a significant impact in a number of areas, taking people out of fuel poverty, improving their health and reducing demand, therefore, on the health service, as well as regenerating communities, creating jobs and helping to meet our decarbonisation targets. Analysis shows that around 60,000 jobs could be created in Wales through that investment in housing retrofit, and, at a UK level, 300,000 jobs potentially in the next three years.

We think that green recovery also needs to focus on connectivity, so making sure that everyone has access to a decent broadband connection and infrastructure. Also, a focus on public transport and active travel. We would like to see an investment in large-scale nature restoration. Again, we think that there are significant opportunities for restoration of nature to create a number of jobs. And then, finally, we want to see investment in skills to support the transition to all of these green industries and industries of the future. At a UK level, the green economy currently supports about 430,000 jobs a year, and is growing about 11 per cent per year, so that's one of the fastest rates of growth. When we're seeing that against a backdrop of some estimates suggesting that there could be up to 12,000 job losses in Wales, clearly, investing in those areas, which are going to be those jobs for the future and help us meet decarbonisation and nature emergency targets, seems to be the right approach and the obvious approach to take.

Thank you, Sophie. Haf, you wanted to come in on this as well, and then I'll come to Tabea. Haf.

Thank you, yes. I certainly absolutely agree with everything that Sophie said in terms of priorities and the work that her office has carried out.

I think, as a starting point, as a climate justice organisation, we emphasise the need for a green and fair recovery—so, one where all efforts are focused on addressing the multiple crises we're facing: so, the climate and ecological emergencies, of course the COVID-19 public health crisis and the economic impacts of that, and the ongoing inequalities of our nation. So, I think the key for us is not putting 'green recovery' in a box or as a separate section, but seeing that a green and fair recovery is the focus of a complete plan, if you like—so, looking at solutions that are win-win for our environment and society and economy.

In terms of what we look like, we did last month publish a climate action plan for Wales—a green and fair recovery for people and communities—which I hope has been circulated to committee members, but, if not, we can certainly share after this. There's a lot of detail in that, but some of the principles, or priorities, let's say, are first of all not just looking at what we do, invest and do, but what we don't do: so, stopping doing some things—so, not investing in high-carbon infrastructure, for example, not building up trouble for the future by building major new roads and power stations and incinerators. And then prioritising the communities and groups that are most vulnerable in Wales—so, for example, the fuel poor—by refurbishing houses and looking at energy efficiency; tackling air pollution, with more ramping up of active travel measures, safe routes to schools, local services, improvement in public transport; dealing with, of course, the impacts of climate change that we're seeing already. So, the awful flooding that's been—particularly this year, it's been really awful in Wales. So, looking at nature-based solutions and prevention plans, working with communities on those. And a lack of green space—communities and areas that don't have a green space nearby, which, I think has been so valued, particularly when we're in lockdown like this and can only walk or cycle for exercise. So, ensuring better access to green space for every household. So, I think, in terms of priority areas, that's what we should be looking at as those that win for the economy, society and the environment. And then, of course, I agree with everything that Sophie said in terms of investment in green jobs as well.

Yes. And then, Tabea, if you have any points to add, but particularly what you think the Welsh Government's priority should be in delivering a green recovery.

Of course. Thanks very much. I think, just following on on some specifics of what's already been mentioned, there is a need to respond to the public health crisis, but, unfortunately, we also know, from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report and the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services report, that we do have a climate crisis and a nature crisis that need to be acted on right now. And I really appreciate previous mentions that this is a climate and nature emergency. This means that a lot of the actions that are already being planned, where they're focused on decarbonisation, they should also focus on nature restoration in equal measure. This means anything from large-scale habitat restoration and an understanding that the ecosystem services that are provided from a natural healthy environment are the absolute foundation of our economy. There's a huge potential to provide short-term jobs in restoring large-scale habitats, and I think there's a lot of potential in green jobs, for a lack of a better description, to provide an immediate investment opportunity to lay the cornerstone for a green economy. And it also means not just understanding a green recovery and green spaces as green, but as genuinely nature rich—so, when we talk about urban green spaces, that these are biodiverse, because there's a huge economic benefit in providing a space for pollinators. So, I think, to us—and we do have a green recovery manifesto as well, which I believe has been circulated, on the details of this—it means that a green recovery has to genuinely understand nature-rich spaces across Wales, both large scale and in urban areas.

Thank you, all, for expanding on that opening question. I appreciate that. Joyce Watson.

Hi, all, and thank you for being here. My questions are around the current proposals that the Welsh Government already has in place in terms of their reconstruction plan and how that might contribute towards the green recovery and any changes that you might see. I also had a short debate on this last week, and I did talk about a 'teal' recovery rather than a 'green' recovery, which actually takes notice of the sea as well as the land. So, I'll just throw that in there, because I think it's a good term. But, anyway, there are current proposals by the Welsh Government, and what would you like to see in there, maybe, that's not in there now—or improved?

I should say, as well, if you do want to come in, just lift your hand, and I'll lift my hand to say I've seen you as well, if you want to come in on any point. Sophie, I think you're first, and then Tabea and then Haf. So, there we are, you're all coming in on this question. Sophie.

Thank you, Chair. So, I think the first thing to say is, broadly, we welcome the approach that the Welsh Government are taking in terms of their reconstruction plans, broadly in line with the priorities that I've outlined within my five-point plan. But I would say that the devil, really, is in the detail, and we haven't seen a huge amount of detail as yet. So, just to sort of flesh out some of those areas where we would like to see more detail and some more specific action, we welcome the investment and focus around housing retrofits, but I think this year we're looking at a budget commitment of around £35 million, and what we know from the work that's been done by Chris Joffe and others in Wales is that, over 10 years, in order to meet the scale of the challenge in terms of housing retrofit in Wales, we're actually going to be looking at around £4.2 billion over a 10-year period. So, clearly, £35 million, whilst welcome—and I do support the approach that the Government are taking in terms of working with housing associations on the optimised retrofit programme to understand what the needs are in different homes and so on before jumping in—that still doesn't take away from the fact that whatever it actually looks like in terms of the detail of what's needed in individual homes, it's going to need significantly more investment. I think if we're going to drive the full benefits out of that investment in housing retrofit, so, the jobs, for example, going to local people and so on, we will need to make sure that there is a long-term funding trajectory around that, because to get a skills pipeline, we need to be able to have the jobs coming three, four, five, six, seven, 10 years down the line in order to ensure that that skills pipeline is leading to something. So, I think that there are some challenges there.

We'd like to see some investment in the skills pipeline in that area, potentially through the construction innovation centre. I believe there are discussions with Government around this new construction innovation centre that has been established, and we think that they could be part of the solution to addressing some of the skills challenges in these areas.

I'm particularly concerned about the current mismatch that we appear to have between what the aspirations might be on a green recovery and the numbers of job potential around that green recovery. Just to give you a flavour of that, the Wales TUC report—I know you just had Shavanah Taj in and she may have covered this—but the indications there are around 27,000 jobs in housing retrofit, 18,000 in transport, 9,000 in energy manufacturing and broadband, and 5,000 in forestry, agriculture and nature-based solutions and so on. The challenge we have is that at the moment people coming into the system in those areas are not necessarily matching that aspiration in terms of jobs.

So, I'm particularly concerned about digital, both in terms of the teaching of digital in schools and people undertaking digital apprenticeships, for example, which would be crucial for those jobs in the future and crucial if we are going to continue to work from home and various things. So, to just give you a flavour of that, in the last four years, compared with the previous four years, there's been an increase of only 57 in the number of people undertaking apprenticeships in computer science. So, that is hugely concerning to me, and in many ways, even more concerning, again, in that last period, there have been only 11 teachers who have come in to the teaching profession with that background in computer science. So, I suppose my main concern is that the narrative on one hand is very encouraging, but we have a long way to go in terms of actually getting to the detail.

And then, just a final point that I want to make, because I don't want to hog this, is in terms of transport. I fully support what Haf was saying there. We're at a critical point in terms of transport. We're seeing some very promising investment decisions. We've been working with the Government on the draft of the national transport strategy, and, again, that's very encouraging. However, what we're seeing in terms of investment, so the Wales infrastructure investment plan, for example, 62 per cent of that investment is still going on roads. So, again, there's a bit of a mismatch there in terms of what the narrative and the aspiration are compared to what is currently actually happening in reality.

Thank you, Sophie. Haf.

I think Tabea was going to be before me, but I'm happy to—

Oh, sorry. I beg your pardon.

—[Inaudible.]—opportunity.

Tabea, do you want to come in at this point?

Yes, thank you. That's right, thanks, Haf. I very much want to echo the sentiment of the commissioner. There's some good narrative in the reconstructing Wales report, especially, but we're seeing a huge missing link in the focus on what would actually make this recovery green. There is a mention of tree planting, which is linked to national forest strategy in the short-term measures. I think, given the state of the climate and nature emergency and the actions needed, I think in the short term, this could and should be expanded to peatlands and to embrace the understanding of the teal recovery wetlands, so habitats that have a huge potential to store carbon and whose destruction also releases a lot of carbon, and also, as Haf mentioned earlier, have that short-term immediate benefit of providing flood prevention and helping on that front as well, which was on everyone's minds back in February.

We're also seeing a missing link between the ambitions on nature restoration in the short term and the ambitions then stated in the long term. In the long-term part of the plan, there is a mention of large-scale habitat restoration, but given the state of things shifting at the moment and the need to set in place things right now, there is a complete missing link in the short-term measures. I think the most important link that is missing—to echo the commissioner—is the need for additional jobs, especially for young people, which would include skilling or reskilling people who are now at risk of redundancy, as a result of COVID, in green jobs. There's a lot of potential to develop a—we're calling it a 'national nature service'—a kind of green jobs work and training scheme, to meet the needs of current unemployment, but also to provide the potential for developing transferable skills, but also, if needed and wanted, develop conservation skills that would take forward jobs, skills into the long term, and essentially provide green skills that will be needed in a very changing green economy in the future.

Thank you for that, Tabea. Haf.

Diolch, thanks. Yes, I absolutely agree with what Tabea was saying there. I think in terms of the Welsh Government's plans, and specifically the reconstruction challenges and priorities document that was published last month, there is a problem, in a way, that we haven't had the comprehensive spending review from the UK Government yet, so there isn't a certainty about future funds. So, it is sort of by necessity, it feels quite short term and lacks the detail and actually being a plan. So, I think it's welcome as far as it goes, and some of the context around climate change and setting environmental justice as a key value, and focusing on inequalities is very welcome, but it's then short on detail. I can understand, without that certainty around funding, that that is somewhat inevitable, but I think it's a point worth being aware of as well.

So, the short-term priorities are welcome. I think the town centre focus and the resilient communities was particularly interesting, that there's commitment to new green spaces and 20 mph areas and focus on the circular economy, so there's some good stuff in there. And it's positive that the climate emergency is one of the eight key points. But, again, I don't feel that the actions reflect that there is an emergency or a definite commitment. The start is there, but it doesn't go into the detail.

I agree with Tabea saying that the long-term priorities are more promising, talking more about sort of modal shift, public transport ownership and procurement, and areas like that. But how are we going to get there? So, it's probably a good starting point and it's also really promising that I think it said that over 2,000 submissions had been made as part of this process. So, during a really challenging time, with lots of people on furlough during the pandemic, that shows a real appetite for change and a real appetite for discussion on this, and hoping that we can move forward with this and that there's more engagement from the Welsh Government on developing a comprehensive plan.

Okay. Thank you. I hope that's okay, Joyce, we've got to move on, I think. Helen Mary Jones. And just a brief point before you ask your question, Helen Mary, I know we are pressed for time.

Thank you, Chair. I was having a bit of trouble with my—

Oh, shall I—? Do you want to me to go to Suzy first, then come back to you? Or do you want to try asking your question?

Yes, if you don't mind.

Okay, I'll come to Suzy Davies first, then, and I'll come back to Helen Mary Jones. Suzy Davies. Suzy, you're not on mute, but I can't hear you. I might have to come back to Helen Mary in that case. Oh, I can hear you now, Suzy. Go ahead.

Sorry about that. Thank you, and welcome, everyone. I just wanted to ask: do you think at the moment that businesses—obviously, who you're trying to persuade to take everything you're saying on board—are stuck in panic mode at the moment because of COVID, and may not be listening to you in a way that they're seeing what you say as new opportunities? Do you think there's an issue there, or does Welsh Government need to do more to push the point that the new normal isn't going to be the same as the old normal, and you've all got loads of things to say that are really important and helpful to business? 

So, apologies, I was going to say because we're stretched for time and we've got so many questions to get through—

That's the one question.

No, I was going to say don't feel like you all have to address every question that's asked as well to be helpful. But, who would like to address the question Suzy's raised? Sophie, please. Thank you.

Sorry, again. Happy to pick up, but please stop me if others want to come in. So, I absolutely take Suzy's point, and I think it's not just business, of course; across the public sector there's that sort of panic mode where it's sometimes difficult to see the wood for the trees. But, I think, as we are emerging into a second phase, that's potentially a second part of panic, but there is something now around this becoming not just perhaps what we might have thought initially as something that would take a few months and then we'd all go back to normal, but really that we are not, as you say, we are not going to go back to normal.

In terms of business—and I've been saying this even prior to the pandemic—there's a real need for the Government to support business towards the sort of transition that we've been talking about here today, and, more broadly, from my perspective, the wider obligations under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Again, there's been some sort of warm words towards that, if you like, in terms of the economic contract, which I welcome. It should be said that, I think, before COVID, there were around about 300 businesses that signed up to the economic contract; there are now over 5,000. So, we can see that just over the course of the last six months or so. And the principles that we're asking businesses to sign up to in the economic contracts—decarbonisation, reskilling and upskilling their workforce, focusing on health and well-being, and so on—are all good, but, at the moment, I don't think that there is that support in terms of the practical help and assistance for businesses to understand, therefore, 'What are the things that I should be doing to meet those obligations?' in the economic contract. And there's also not enough monitoring and assessing of what is actually happening as a result.

Now, I've raised this with Ken Skates. I think that there is some acceptance that perhaps the monitoring hasn't been there. I've been in discussions with a range of business organisations, and particularly with Chris Nott, who is leading a piece of work on behalf of Ken Skates through his ministerial advisory board, on how can businesses be brought into this green recovery. They have submitted a paper to Ken Skates. The group that he's brought together are called Ffenics, which I understand is 'phoenix' yn Gymraeg, and they are very much focused on areas that I would support. So, one of their priorities—. So, they include a move from an economy measured by GVA to one measured by well-being; developing infrastructure with priorities around public transport, social housing, digital and a green economy; providing and signposting financial support; developing skills in Welsh Government to build confidence in an enhanced digital infrastructure and social investment in public transport, and so on. They're proposing a conservation corps, which is a big job growth programme around investing in nature-based solutions and so on. So, I actually think that there is that thinking—quite progressive thinking—going on in Government, but I think as it filters down from the senior leaders in Government to those on the ground, that's where there's some real need for supportive infrastructure.

Thanks, Sophie.  I'm just really conscious—we've got more questions than we've got time for, unfortunately. So, I really appreciate your full answers, but we're going to struggle to get through. So, Haf and Tabea, if you could just be brief on this. Haf.

Yes, I will be brief, and I won't repeat what Sophie said as well. The panic is understandable at the moment, and I think there's a role for Government—well, for all of us, but Government to work in partnership with businesses and trade unions to plan for what we call a just transition, so looking further afield. So, for businesses that are currently struggling because of the current conditions but are sustainable in the long term, to provide support and advice, including lowering costs by decarbonisation measures, but also for those areas that may be fossil fuel sectors and jobs that aren't sustainable in the long term, to plan properly and develop new, high-quality jobs, and reskilling those workers.

So, yes, I can understand that, at the moment, business support just needs to be in place, but that Government support for economic recovery should also reinforce the social and environmental goals as well.

Thank, Haf. Tabea, you wanted to come in.

Yes, just to pick up on a few things. I think, obviously, it's clear that local businesses are struggling and have had a horrendous year and there's more to come, and I think the key word is 'support'. Especially with your last panel in mind, the absolute core of this is to put those most affected by the current crisis at the absolute forefront of a green recovery and, where we acknowledge that we won't go back to business as usual, to really provide that skilling, reskilling and upskilling where it's needed, and putting young people, especially from black and ethnic minority backgrounds and those who've had a flourishing career but who now have transferrable skills that we can use, to reskill that. 

I appreciate the commissioner mentioning the conservation corps. Just for clarity, there's the same concept coming up under different words—I'm going to continue calling it the national nature service, just for clarity, but it is a similar concept. That's kind of at the crossroad of this—to need those green skills to capture where those jobs could possibly go.

Just separately on the economic contract, while, obviously, there are a lot of sensitivities at the moment, and there is support for the requirements and how to implement this, the economic contract has certain requirements that qualify businesses to qualify for public funds. None of these are focused on nature restoration. There's quite a clear one on decarbonisation, but it would be a very strong statement to acknowledge the climate nature crisis that businesses, alongside decarbonisation measures, also need to contribute to. For example, urban biodiversity. So, there is a bit of a missing piece of requirement there.

Thank you. Suzy, did you want to come back on anything at all, or are you happy to—?

Well, I'd like to come back on a lot, but I appreciate that we're short on time. It's fine. Thank you ever so much for your answers.

Thank you, Suzy. Helen Mary Jones.

Thank you, Chair. Apologies, I seem to have some connection issues today, and also apologies to our witnesses as I may have to leave this session a little bit early because I have another commitment. 

Can I take you back to Welsh Government and what Welsh Government needs to do, because, of course, that's where, as a committee, we can have the strongest voice, potentially? You did touch on this in response to Joyce's question, actually, but I want to bring you back to how the Welsh Government should be prioritising their investment in infrastructure and transport as part of this green recovery, and what changes need to be made to the current situation. I think Sophie mentioned that, you know, we talk about green transport, but we're still talking about spending 62 per cent of the budget on roads. So, to what extent do you think that this apparent refocusing is going to work and what else do they need to do?

Okay. I think everybody wanted to come in on this, so, if you can try and be brief and answer as comprehensive as you can. Tabea.

Okay. I'll try and keep it very brief. Yes, I completely agree—we have a narrative that says we need a green recovery and we're spending a lot of money on roads. I think, across the board, that's not acceptable. There are alternatives. One thing that is not mentioned enough in the current narrative is green infrastructure: genuine nature-based solutions that could provide jobs, provide flood defence, provide decarbonisation and nature restoration. It is absolutely at the cross-section of all of these issues and needs investment early on. There's also a kind of lack of acknowledgement of an investment in the kind of foundational economy that a healthy natural environment provides. So, for example, food infrastructure—the kind of jobs that would be provided be food markets, community retailers, food processors, food co-operatives, which would provide green jobs, but also form the basis for future resilience of local economies. I'll stop there.

Really interesting, thank you.

Thank you. Haf.

Diolch. Actually, in the summer we published a report that we'd commissioned from consultants, Transport for Quality of Life, which is near Machynlleth—you might be familiar with them. We asked them to assess what transport policy and priorities should look like in a climate emergency. It was commissioned before the pandemic, but I feel it is very relevant for where we are in terms of recovery interventions, and we have been working with the authors and talking to civil servants in Welsh Government on this as well, so it's been well received.

At the moment, we are starting from the wrong place, and we're all eagerly awaiting the consultation on the transport strategy for Wales, because, in essence, the whole system hasn't been reviewed and reorganised in line with the well-being of future generations Act or in line with our decarbonisation commitments. So, there needs to be a fundamental change there about how we assess projects, what we prioritise, and how we see, especially in terms of transport infrastructure, as has been mentioned before, that the emphasis on roads has to change.

I think there is a real opportunity, as well, with this pandemic, with behaviour change and people thinking differently about how we travel and work. Shortly, I can forward the report with details, but there just needs to be a shift away from major roads to active travel infrastructure, such as urban cycling paths and cycling highways, and to integrate that with public transport hubs—so, interchanges where there's a single timetable and guaranteed service standards. As I say, I can pass the report on for further details on that. 

In terms of more general infrastructure, as I said earlier, the priority is not funding or supporting high-carbon infrastructure. Of course, everything has a carbon footprint, but we need to look at what is the purpose of building something, or that we don't lock in or encourage and reward behaviour change that is high carbon. So, as has been mentioned before, housing retrofitting and nature recovery as well as active travel and public transport, I'd say, would be the key priority areas in infrastructure.

Helen Mary, was there anything you wanted to ask Sophie specifically before I bring her in on wider—?

No, I'm happy to hear on the general point.

That's fine. Sophie.

On transport in particular, in the 10-point plan that I published, my recommendation is that at least 50 per cent of the capital budget should be spent on public transport, 10 per cent of the whole budget on active travel, and 20 per cent of the capital budget on active travel. But, as I mentioned earlier, what we're seeing at the moment is that 64 per cent of the capital budget, through the Wales infrastructure investment plan, is being spent on roads. So, on active travel in particular, if we're wanting to meet some of the aspirations of some of our European neighbours, we're currently spending about £10-12 per person, per year on active travel, for example, and in Denmark they're spending £17 and in the Netherlands £24 per person, per year, so we would like to see a similar level of investment.

As I mentioned, I am encouraged by the national transport strategy, but the policy then needs to be aligned with the funding decisions, and, just coming down a level again, although we've reformed the WelTAG system so that the WelTAG criteria now embeds in the future generations Act the requirements around decarbonisation, I still have grave concerns about the application of WelTAG, which I've raised with the Ministers and with officials. Because nobody is checking whether that WelTAG process is being followed to the letter, and funding is still being—

Sorry, Sophie, just for the benefit of people who are watching this, can you tell us what the WelTAG process is? I mean, obviously, Members would know, but some members of the public wouldn't necessarily.

Yes, of course. Thank you, Helen Mary. So, WelTAG stands for the 'Welsh transport appraisal guidance'. This is the criteria used by local authorities and their consultants to identify, 'Well, we've got a problem with congestion. What should be the answer to that?' And the criteria is being amended so that the answer should be one that takes into account all aspects of well-being. However, what we're seeing in a number of areas is that we are applying the same thinking and approaches and just trying to retrofit the WelTAG process to that. So, I am concerned about that.

There are some immediate things that I think could help. I'm pleased to see the investment that's gone into active travel and public transport. Picking up on Tabea's point, there are loads of opportunities there for us when we're constructing cycle superhighways and so on, to do that in a way that also bakes in space for nature. There are some good examples—not perfect, but good examples—in Cardiff of where they're doing that. So, what we need to be doing is, where we're spending, not just spend on creating concrete infrastructure for our cycling routes, but let's be cleaning and greening our communities at the same time. And one other small area that I think could make a substantial difference that I've submitted to Government is the closure of school streets as part of the response to the pandemic—it's happening in a number of areas—so that you reduce that school traffic, you improve safety and you bake in that walking and cycling to school right from the outset, and it's relatively low cost because it doesn't require that much infrastructure.

Thank you, Helen Mary. Vikki Howells.

Thank you, Chair. One way we're looking at building back after COVID is a lot of emphasis on the traditional with construction work and that sort of thing. So, I'm just wondering how the skill system in Wales can contribute to a green recovery and what kind of reskilling and retraining you think might be required as part of that.

Sophie, do you want to come in on that?

I'm happy to come in. As I mentioned earlier, I think there are a huge number of opportunities and we've seen that through numerous reports, both at a Wales level and at a UK level. But there is a challenge in terms of what we have at the moment in terms of skills not matching that level of aspiration.

If I can, briefly, I want to take you through some figures, some analysis that we've done on this very issue. So, on broadband installation, for example, which will be crucial, the estimate of existing jobs is around 6,000 existing jobs—that was in 2018. The TUC believes that there are an additional 1,000 jobs that could be created in this area, but current annual apprenticeship starts are between 360 and 490. So, again, an area where we perhaps need to be increasing. On railway construction, for example, current jobs are 1,000; TUC estimate that it could be just over 5,000 jobs created. But for general construction, for example, not even specific to rail, we're currently taking in between 2,200 and 2,500 apprenticeships per year. The situation is even worse, in some ways, for retrofitting installation. So, predictions of about 4,200 or so jobs to be created annually in these areas, but currently, in terms of heating and ventilation, the annual starts for apprenticeships are between 20 and 40. And then, reforestation and natural flood defence, the estimations from the TUC are that around 3,500 jobs could be created, but we're currently taking in between 50 and 120 apprenticeships each year.

So, the big challenge for the Welsh Government, I believe, in terms of skills, is to be setting out that long-term pathway for investment in these areas and these jobs, and then to be working now to make sure that we're targeting the right people to get these jobs in these new industries. And, by the right people, I'm talking about we should be looking at how we target women, black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, what could be the role in terms of disabled people and, indeed, those people furthest from the labour market.

Tabea, you wanted to come in.

Thanks. Yes, just to follow up on some figures. We're currently undertaking some work to understand the job potential in nature restoration. It's quite a difficult one to measure, but within existing capacity, it looks like it might be between 2,000 to 3,000 jobs. However, in terms of what Welsh Government could do to support this is, obviously, to expand that capacity, which could then, obviously, create more potential for jobs.

And just to go back to an earlier point on the missing link in the reconstruction report between short-term investment and the long-term goals of nature restoration, there is a mention of Welsh Government support of a pipeline project when this applies to renewables. And I think what we would like to see, if this is within Welsh Government's thinking, is equal support for the development of pipeline projects that could provide immediate jobs right now, in the same way that renewables are being developed, especially if those were considered in tandem, because there's a huge potential for the nature restoration part to provide additional jobs. It's very difficult to pull together pipeline projects, though, and any support from Welsh Government would obviously be very, very welcome.

Helen Mary, have you got any other further questions you want to ask? No. Sorry, it was Vikki Howells. Vikki, did you have any further questions? Sorry.

No. No, thank you. That was very useful.

Haf, did you want to come back on anything at all?

I think it's mainly been covered, just, yes, in terms of those traditional jobs that Vikki mentioned. There's obviously great potential in terms of the whole housing refurb sector and in terms of reskilling in terms of transport projects and moving to pipeline projects that are more around active travel. And just to emphasise that those jobs would, of course, be across Wales, so there are jobs in every community. So, maybe that instead of a focus on a few individual large projects, we're looking at locally based jobs, so there's support for those as well.

Perhaps if I can ask as well in terms of the—. We've talked a lot about patterns of work, but, perhaps, have any of you got some comments with regard to the Welsh Government's aims for 30 per cent homeworking and other suggestions of four-day week working as well? Can I ask for any general comments you have in those areas? Sophie, you were nodding. Do you want to come in on that?

Thank you, Chair. Yes. So, we welcome the 30 per cent target in terms of working from home. We think, potentially, that that could be higher. However, we think that it's important that we're anticipating any unintended consequences around that. So, as an example, from an equality perspective, there are concerns being raised at the moment that, whilst working from home has a number of benefits in terms of how work/life balance could be a game changer in terms of the ability of disabled people, for example, to work and so on, what we need to do is to ensure that we are also working with businesses and organisations to change the culture so that we're not, in the future, almost creating a two-tier workforce where the presenteeism culture re-emerges for those who are going to return to the office and be the key staff in the office, and the second tier are the ones who are continuing to work from home. I think we need to be trying to anticipate some of those issues that could come our way and mitigate it.

I think in terms of—. So, as you know, I've shown support for the consideration of a reduced working week but also of a basic income. There are a number of reasons why I think that those could be interesting areas to explore, and I'm currently in the middle of commissioning some research specifically looking at the national well-being goals and the benefits that a reduced working week and a basic income could bring to each of those well-being goals. We know that there is a high level of carbon impact associated with work activities, so travelling to work, for example. We know that if people are still working from home in their local areas that that could have a positive impact on localised and small businesses in the foundational economy in those areas, and I've already talked about the work-life balance issues.

I also think that, in the short term, the reduced working week could be an answer to a new form of furlough, if you like, and certainly in Germany, there's a scheme called the Kurzarbeit—I might not be pronouncing that correctly—where the German Government are supporting firms to reduce the working hours of their employees, rather than making them redundant, and they are backfilling that wage, up to 60 per cent, with an increased level, actually, for those with children. So, I think we need to be thinking about some of these innovative benefits, and if you want to layer that further, you could be thinking about, if people are reducing their hours of work, what it is that they could then be doing to contribute in their community through volunteering and various other things.

Thank you, Sophie. Haf, you wanted to come in, and perhaps, if you're agreeing with Sophie, you could perhaps talk about some of the potential unintended consequences of homeworking, perhaps, as well.

Yes, just quickly. We do agree, and we're supportive of the Welsh Government's emphasis of more working from home in future. I think it will be more of a flexible approach, so as well as working from home, I think we need to be looking at local hubs or places that people can go locally to work, with all the facilities and superfast broadband et cetera, so that it's maybe more of a mixed picture, so that people aren't working from home all the time, but can easily work or cycle or maybe take a short public transport journey in order to get to a workplace as well. So, it's a more general approach to how we view travelling and working, and certainly more meetings like this, rather than some long journeys to meet in person. So, it's definitely positive in terms of reducing our carbon impact, but also in terms of air pollution, that congestion at those key commuting points in the morning where people are trying to get to work and school at the same time, and are creating air pollution problems as well, and also in terms of the agenda of reforming our towns and developing a more locally based society, so that services are within walking distance, that people shop locally, so that we develop more resilient and stronger local communities. So, it's not just a case of working from home, I think, but reviewing how we live in our local areas and strengthen our communities.

Thank you, Haf. Are there any other Members who've got any final questions that they want to ask in particular? No—Suzy Davies.

Thank you. As we've got a couple of minutes, I wonder if I could just pick up on the question I was going to ask Sophie some time back, and that was this gap that's between a really good policy idea and the ability, particularly in small and medium-sized enterprises, to pick up on those good ideas. When we're talking about Welsh Government targeting support for businesses to pick up on those good ideas, what do you think might be the risks of targeting? Who are we likely to miss who could be taking advantage of these good ideas if Government takes too narrow a view on who it would like to support?

Sophie, if you can address some other final points you want to make that perhaps you think will help our work as well that haven't been drawn out through questions in the final minutes as well. Thank you.

Thank you. Well, I think that, obviously, the starting point has got to be the companies who've signed up for the economic contract, because they've entered into a contract, if you like. But I also think that the broader support that the Welsh Government provides to business should be better aligned with the principles within the well-being of future generations Act. Tabea mentioned that the economic contract, although it's good, doesn't comprehensively cover the requirements of the future generations Act, so, for example, nature is missing from it. So, I proposed in my future generations report that there should be some infrastructure, either within business support services that exist, that should have some link back to my office in terms of providing guidance and advice on what the requirements of the future generations Act are, along with our business arm. So, for example, some of those suggestions that are in the Ffenics paper that I mentioned would align quite nicely with some of that. So, I think there could be a dual role for a commissioner working alongside business to either embed the WFG thinking into existing structures or to create new mechanisms of support.

Thank you, Sophie. Joyce, you want to come in as well.

Yes, I do. I just don't see a separation going on here, so I'm going to come back to conservation—nature conservation. I suppose I'm going to ask Tabea whether she feels that, in terms of thinking about growing the economy, the focus is perhaps too much on wealth creation being seen as not being connected to nature, and I'm going to give an example here. We've all watched, haven't we, these last nine months, what people are doing in terms of growing wealth in the community, but what they're actually doing is staying in their community? They're not travelling abroad, and there's a definite gain for the holiday industry, for example—I'll just use that as an example—about valuing nature. So, my question is this—that's my view, actually, I'm giving you; my question is this: should there be a far greater emphasis on recognising the growth in nature conservation that gives a clear advantage to business, which leads to Suzy's question, and the opportunities that they can take, rather than just focusing on the things we've always done?

Tabea, I'll come to you to address that and any other final points that you want to make as well in these final minutes, and then I'll come to you, Haf, if you've got any final points as well to finish off the session. Tabea.

Thank you, that's a fantastic question, and I guess the short answer is, unsurprisingly, 'yes'. I think we've all realised over the last eight months that we are not going to return to business as usual, and I don't think a lot of people do [correction: want to]. Unfortunately, there's obviously a mindset that is shifting but still has a long way to go in terms of re-evaluating what we actually value in Wales as a society, as a country, and there are some shifts in moving away from having economic growth being the only thing that is important. It is important, especially for Wales, but we're starting to understand it's not the only thing we want to measure our nation's progress by.

It's interesting to see conversations develop in finding supplementary measures to gross domestic product to measure this progress, and I would hope that developments in that area will reflect sustainable development in Wales and our well-being principles, to reflect cultural, social and environmental progress alongside economic development. I think there has been, you're completely right, in the last few months a revived understanding of how much our mental and physical well-being, especially in a time of lockdown and COVID, is linked to nature, to local parks, to our gardens. We've definitely seen it from supporters, but in wider conversations as well—and nature reserves—and how much this supports our general well-being. We've also, and this is also in light of the EU exit that we are still facing—there's the potential for local economies, in food production, for example, where it's done in a way that also benefits nature. It could be incredibly localised and it could revive local economies, instead of importing it, as we currently do, from New Zealand, which just seems really absurd.

So, I think there's a lot of developing understanding of those kind of systems and, as I mentioned earlier, we're starting to talk about Wales's foundational economy. This has been a term that's developed over the summer, but I think we're starting to really understand that the absolute foundation of our economy in that sense is the clean water and air that's provided by a healthy environment, but also the kind of ecosystem services that come from it in supplying food, and all of the jobs that creates, but also our general well-being, our livelihoods, that are supported from that, both culturally but also economically. So, it's interesting to see that shift, and we would like to see Welsh Government pick up on that a little bit more to realise that Wales as a country is really starting to understand these links, and that they're not mutually exclusive, and that nature restoration isn't about conserving species. It's also, crucially, about conserving species, but it has to go across everything.

Thank you, Tabea. We're just running out of time but, briefly, Haf, if you've got any final comments, a last word from you to help our piece of work. Thank you. 

Yes, and in response to Joyce's question as well, in our climate action plan, we do actually propose replacing GDP as the main measure of progress with a living standards framework—so, developing our own living standards framework in Wales, as New Zealand currently have. So that's one import from New Zealand that we would welcome. But, of course, we need to develop it ourselves with what's appropriate for us and in line with the well-being Act. But we do believe that a move away, so that we're focusing on the well-being of our society and a much wider view than just economic growth, is really key. 

I'd also say, although we've been emphasising localism and the benefits of that, we must be aware of our global responsibility—so, the impacts that our actions have on the world as well during this period, and the footprint that we have in terms of our impact on the world.

And finally, there is an opportunity here, as we recover from the pandemic. There is an opportunity. There has been such dramatic change that bold decisions can now be taken. There is the possibility of change, and if we can re-imagine our future in a positive way that works for people and the planet we will be able to speed up our decarbonisation goals as well as make improvements for people's lives.

Thank you, Haf. With that, can I thank all our witnesses for your time with us today? We really appreciate it. The committee team will send you a transcript of proceedings. Please have a look at that and, if you feel you need to add anything further to help our work, then I'd be grateful. I think, Haf, you also mentioned you would send us a report eventually as well. So, I appreciate that. But thank you ever so much. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.

I move to item 5, and, under Standing Order 17.42, can I resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, if Members are content? Thanks very much. Thank you.