Y Pwyllgor Materion Allanol a Deddfwriaeth Ychwanegol - Y Bumed Senedd

External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee - Fifth Senedd

16/06/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies
Dai Lloyd
David Melding
David Rees Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Huw Irranca-Davies
Mandy Jones

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Eluned Morgan Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol
Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language
Emma Edworthy Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Alun Davidson Clerc
Clerk
Claire Fiddes Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Nia Moss Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Rhys Morgan Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Sara Moran Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:30. 

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Good morning. Can I welcome Members and the public to this morning's meeting of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee? I remind everyone that this is a virtual meeting where we will be operating via the Zoom system. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, we have determined the public are excluded from the committee meeting in order to protect public health during this current pandemic crisis. The meeting will be broadcast live on Senedd.tv, so that's www.senedd.tv. We've not received apologies from anyone; I'm pleased to say that we have a full set of Members with us. 

In the event of anyone losing the connection, please reconnect as soon as possible. If my connection disappears, we have agreed in the past that Alun Davies will act as temporary Chair until I get reconnected. Would any Member like to declare an interest at this point in time, other than Huw who does his normal, standard declaration, which we'll put on the record to save you unmuting, Huw? Okay, thank you.

2. Sesiwn graffu gyda Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol
2. Scrutiny session with the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language

We'll go on to the next item of business today, which is a scrutiny session with the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language. Can I welcome Eluned Morgan to the meeting and, with her, the official Emma Edworthy? Welcome to this morning's meeting. Can I thank you for the correspondence we've had during the time since we last met as a committee with yourself? We want to go into some questions straight away, and we start with David Melding, please. David, you're not unmuted.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd, and bore da, Minister. Could you just give us a view of the tariff that was published on 19 May? Obviously, this is the third iteration, and you've made your representations, are you happier with that tariff as now published?

Yes, I think we are much more comfortable with where the tariff is now than we were before. It certainly protects some of the more sensitive sectors that we were very concerned about—in particular, agriculture. One of the additional issues that we were particularly concerned about in the previous tariff schedules that were set out was the impact on oil refineries that could have had an effect on Milford Haven. So, we are much more comfortable with where they are now. Unfortunately, the UK Government did not consult us on that; they see the tariffs very much as a reserved area for them. But, I think what's good is that they haven't watered down those commitments to those sensitive areas, and in particular the meat industry, the red meat industry—that was something that we were particularly concerned about.

So, would it be fair to say that in your estimation, the improvement, then, in terms of the tariff and how it affects very sensitive parts of the Welsh economy, that improvement is accidental in that it does not seem to have resulted from direct representation from the Welsh Government?

There were consultations generally with sectors, it's just that the Welsh Government wasn't—. But we obviously fed into that; we told them what our opinions were, it wasn't a formal process, but we did tell them about where our concerns were with the most sensitive areas for Wales. So, clearly, we've been doing a lot of lobbying on those sensitive areas, so we're really pleased that those have been taken on board.

I think, in the autumn, and also possibly earlier, back to March 2019, one of the Welsh Government's most telling criticisms, which I think attracted quite a lot of sympathy, was that there should be some sort of impact assessment on the more sensitive parts of the economy that were likely to be hit by a tariff regime, and I just wondered, do you know if those assessments were conducted by UK Government, and did the Welsh Government itself do any work in terms of feeding in the likely impact on those sensitive areas if a higher than negligible tariff were applied, as seemed likely at one stage?

09:35

Obviously, we were keeping a close eye on what was said previously, and we did make our voices heard in terms of what that impact might look like. As a result of our analysis of the latest tariff publication, we've decided that we won't be making a full impact assessment because we are comfortable with the position as it is now, compared to the proposals under the 'no deal' tariff regime.

So, generally, we're in the same place as the common external tariff, which is what we were very, very keen to promote, and that is, more or less, where we finished up.

And so, is that where we are with red meat, for instance, that, in essence, there's the same protection as if we were just adopting the EU tariff wall? And is that likely to persist or is that going to be temporary, do you think?

So, on the red meat sector, we're comfortable with where they are now, in the same place as the common external tariffs. I think the whole time, we have to completely understand that the exposure on places like red meat is far greater with our relationship with the EU. So, that's the trade deal that really matters, and that's the one that would have the greatest impact. But, obviously, we're in the middle of some pretty significant trade negotiations now, and we have made it clear, time and time again, that whatever happens, we'd like to see protections, effectively, in those sensitive areas so that we don't see dumping in future. 

And, I mean, obviously, the connection to the EU trade agreement is hugely important, but do you anticipate that this is the tariff that is likely to apply if there is a 'no deal'? Because, obviously, then it applies to the EU, presumably, under most-favoured nation arrangements.

Yes. This is the one that would apply in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit as well.

How exposed is the red meat sector, given that—I can't remember the figures exactly, but I think it's well over half, perhaps two thirds of the market for exports is in Europe, so even a modest tariff will have an effect? But, I mean, where are we if that tariff does apply to the bulk of the business that goes to the EU? Can they live with that, do you think, and is that, indeed, what the farmers unions have been telling you?

Yes. I mean, this is an extremely significant exposure if we were to reach that situation. About 90 per cent of our exports go to the EU in relation to lamb, for example. Now, obviously, if you're setting tariffs on those where they're not there at the moment, then competition from within the EU would kick in and, effectively, we are bound to lose some significant market share. So, we're back to the situation where the real issue here is getting that deal with the EU.

Absolutely, but it's much more in relation to the EU situation than it is in relation to those further afield.

Thank you for that, Minister. Those were very clear answers and will help our work in scrutinising these matters, I'm sure.

I just want to ask a couple of questions about trade agreement continuity and, basically, how we roll over some existing agreements, or at least try to. Now, I think the situation, as most experts view it, is that we're unlikely to see all the current EU deals being rolled over by 31 December, and I just wonder if you've made any assessment of those deals that are least likely to be rolled over, and are we—the Welsh economy—particularly exposed in this area? Or do you feel that most of the deals that most directly affect us are likely to be rolled over, and what assessment have you made of the situation?

There are about 41 [correction: 20] trade agreements that have been signed so far out of—. So, there are about 72 [correction: 51] countries that are covered, generally, by EU programmes.

But there are some areas where we are particularly concerned in terms of Welsh exposure. One of them is the Canada deal and the other one is the Turkey deal. So, we are concerned that those are not in any position to go over the line yet. The Canada situation was paused as a result of those tariff publications before, when it looked like we were going to have a 'no deal'. Now that we've published new tariff levels, that negotiation is likely to reopen, but it was Canada who stalled that negotiation for the time being.

The other area's a bit more sensitive and a bit more difficult, because of the relationship with the EU. So, Turkey, for example, is part of a customs union in the EU. So, it's really difficult to see how that can be sorted out until we've sorted out our relationship with the EU.

09:40

Given that this is—. There are a lot of moving parts here, I think we realise how challenging it is for the Welsh Government given that you have no formal competence over trade, though, obviously, there's a big impact on Wales and the operation of government and the economy and all sorts of other issues related to what's made possible by liberal trade, and what would be made more difficult and would constrain us with big costs in the future.

So, how are you engaging with the most sensitive areas? You talk about oil refining, agriculture, particularly red meat export, but there are other markets out there that are very reliant on key parts of the world where they conduct their trade, and even with rollover agreements, presumably, they're not all exactly the same as the earlier EU agreements with some tweaks being made, so, how are you liaising with business to ensure that they also make the best preparations, even if not everything is developing as we would like it to?

Businesses, generally, that export to third countries—that is, not the EU—they're used to the formalities of exporting and importing goods, so that they're used to having to fill in forms and knowing the procedures. One of the things that we are encouraging them to do now is to prepare for that end of transition, and what we're doing is we're hosting webinars as a part of our restart and recovery actions, but also, we're making efforts to engage with those sectors and businesses through the new trade advisory board. So, automotive, for example, financial services are represented on there, manufacturing, tech, aerospace. So, we've got a real sense of where the issues are, and we are getting feedback directly from those representatives on those groups.

In terms of the rollover deals, there's actually no change in the substantive nature of those deals, it's more how they're administered and the bureaucracy that would be different now that we're a third nation, as opposed to operating under the EU regime.

So, most of those trade continuity agreements—and it's now called the continuity negotiations programme—are, effectively, rollover agreements that are technical in nature, in terms of the rollover. There are a few where we haven't quite got to that situation, Japan being one of them, of course, and that's an area, of course, where we have a specific plan to have a trade agreement that will be independent from the EU, and there's a lot of work being done to see if we can get that one up and running, which, of course, would be critical to the Welsh economy as well.

Thank you. I'm glad to see Huw back with us, because it's just the right timing, Huw, for questions from you on relationships in the sense of the negotiations with the US trade agreements. Huw, unmute.

Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister. Could I turn to the issue of UK-US discussions and ask you, first of all, on the issue of engagement? What actual levels of engagement have taken place now between yourselves and the UK Government, both prior to and following the first round of the UK-US negotiations?

To be fair, I think that our level of engagement has been very positive to date. So, the draft mandates were shared with us for comment before they were finalised. The public-facing documents were shared with the officials at the same time as the UK write-around to the departments. So, that's certainly not something that we've seen in relation to the EU negotiations, and that meant that we had time to feed in our comments, at the same time as the other Whitehall departments. The Department for International Trade has also provided us with pre and post-negotiation round briefings at an official-to-official level, and they talk about what will be covered in each round so that we're absolutely clear about what's likely to be discussed there. Also, just before the last round—I don't know if you saw—there was a little bit of a hiccup in terms of the new trade Minister. So, just prior to the negotiations, I did have a discussion with the new Minister, Minister Hands, so that he could just lay out the kind of things that they were expecting. So, I think generally we've been quite happy and comfortable with the engagement so far.

09:45

That's quite encouraging. And on the basis of having good engagement, one would hope then that any concerns that Welsh Government has for different sectors in Wales, for Wales overall, would have at least the UK Government listening to those. So, can you lay out for us—we're aware of much of this already, because it's been heavily trailed in the media and through Welsh Government statements—but as we currently sit, what are those areas of real concern and contention that you see from a Welsh perspective in terms of these US negotiations?

I think the main things that people have been really concerned about, and certainly we've been concerned about, are the sanitary and phytosanitary measures, the animal welfare issues, the food and agricultural standards, and the regulations and standards of our chemicals. So those are the things we are particularly concerned about, and then there's the difference in terms of the approach to regulation. So, the US has this approach that they say is based on sound science, whereas we tend to go with the EU precautionary approach, where if you're not sure about the science, then err on the side of caution. That's a fundamentally different approach, so we're keen to see that approach continued and obviously we've made that very clear to the UK Government.

Just more generally, what we're keen to see is no lowering of standards, in particular around plants and animals, food, health, and in terms of labour standards. All of those things we've been feeding in, but you've seen, I'm sure, recently that there's been a particular issue around the issue of SPS, the chlorinated chicken, and the potential for using artificial growth hormones. That's something that concerns us greatly, and we have obviously made it very clear to the UK Government that that would be not be acceptable. More than that, it's in their own manifesto. They have made a commitment with their own manifesto, so they'd be breaking that commitment. There was a lot of song and dance about that. I can't remember if it was last weekend or the weekend before, but certainly since then we have made sure that the Minister for agriculture and environment [correction: Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs] has written directly to make our feelings absolutely clear in relation to this. But you may have seen that a letter was published by Elizabeth Truss and George Eustice, and they were basically saying, 'No, no, no, nothing's going to change.' So we'll be holding them to that.

So, good engagement, clear objectives from the Welsh Government, so let me push a little bit further and ask you, Minister—you mentioned Liz Truss's letter. How confident are you that the UK Government is not just hearing what's going on from Wales, but is listening to that and will act on it, both in terms of the overall precautionary principle, which has underpinned the UK Government's approach to these matters ever since we've been part of the wider European structures, but also on specific issues that you've raised? Are you confident that they are listening as well as just hearing those representations?

I think they are, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and we'll have to see whether they stand firm against what will be massive US pressure to liberalise in this area. They felt a lot of heat last weekend when they were clearly flying a kite to see what the response would be. They've heard the response loud and clear, including from us, that that would be unacceptable. So we're hopeful that they won't change, and they'd be, as I said, breaking their own promises to the British public on that.

I just think, also, the fact that—. We've been pushing quite hard on climate change and things within these negotiations. It's clear the US don't particularly want to play on that field, but the fact that we've managed to strengthen that engagement, I think, and strengthened that as part of the mandate is also something positive where we have had an influence. 

09:50

If I can ask one final question, Minister—and thank you for those answers—and it's on the implications of a free trade agreement with the US, if we get to that position. Wales has tried to push quite ambitiously on environmental policy, land use, land management policy, agricultural policies; what assessment have you made of the implications of a free trade agreement with the US for our ambitions of what we want to do in Wales in terms of the environment and agriculture?

Well, it all depends on where the negotiations land. It's very difficult to make an impact assessment until you know what the negotiations are going to present. But what we have said is that, if we were to see, for example, a full, immediate liberalisation of agricultural tariffs or any kind of lowering of standards, then that would have a disproportionate impact on Wales. So, whatever happens, it is absolutely clear that we need quite a long transition in terms of whatever comes next. So I think we're pushing them as hard as we can. The UK Government is saying they're in the same place, but this pressure from the US is going to be intense. 

Could you just, finally, be a little bit more specific? What are those areas of agriculture and the environment that are most at risk if we have a lowering of environmental or animal welfare or other standards? In Wales, what should we be worried about if it gets to that?

Well, I guess things like poultry; if you're going to be having imports of chlorinated poultry coming in, that would have a big impact. If you had hormone-injected beef being imported into Wales, then that could undercut the beef market in Wales. So those are some examples of where we would have really big concerns in terms of the impact on the Welsh market. 

Thank you, Huw. Minister, before I ask Dai Lloyd to come in on the negotiations with Japan, which you've already mentioned as well, has the Welsh Government reviewed previous trade agreements from the US with other nations to assess what type of areas are likely to be impacted upon, based upon past history? I appreciate that this is a new agreement and there's a different direction possibly, but past history sometimes gives an indication as to where the US would focus their attention.

Yes, we have been looking at that, and looking at areas where we've had really big concerns and where there are opportunities for us to maybe copy some of the good things that have come out. One of the big issues, if you remember, in the past, when the US was trying to negotiate a deal with the EU, one of the really sticky areas that made the agreement fall down was this investor dispute situation. So we've looked at what's happened in relation to Canada, and they've had a different approach there that was acceptable to the US. So there are examples where we can learn from other nations, and that is an example of where we've looked at what works for them and what would be acceptable to them, and obviously we can point to a precedent that they've accepted before then.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Bore da, Gweinidog. Fel mae'r Cadeirydd wedi crybwyll, rydw i'n mynd i sôn ychydig bach yn fanylach am negodiadau efo Siapan yn y cyd-destun yma, ac rydych chi wedi crybwyll hwn eisoes. Felly, cwestiwn cyffredinol i ddechrau: beth yw'ch ymateb chi i amcanion negodi y Deyrnas Unedig ar gyfer cytundeb masnach rhydd efo Siapan? 

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, Minister. As the Chair has just mentioned, I'm going to move on now to the negotiations with Japan, and you've already mentioned the issue. So, a general question first of all: what's your response to the UK's negotiating objectives for the free trade agreement with Japan?

Wel, rŷn ni wedi bod yn trafod gyda Llywodraeth Prydain ynglŷn â beth y dylem ni fod yn ei ofyn o ran negodi gyda nhw. Rŷn ni wedi canolbwyntio ar bethau fel safonau, y tariffau a'r rules of origin, a gwasanaethau. So, rheini yw'r pethau rŷn ni wedi bod yn poeni amdanynt yn fwy na dim. A hefyd, unwaith eto, rŷn ni wedi bod yn gwthio lot ar climate change; mae hwnna yn hollbwysig i ni, a rŷn ni wedi cael newidiadau i'r mandate o ganlyniad i fod yn gwthio yn y maes yna.

Well, we have been having discussions with the UK Government as to what we should be seeking in terms of those negotiations. We have focused on things such as standards, tariffs, rules of origin and services. So, those are the things that we've been most concerned about. And, once again, we have been pushing hard on climate change, which is also very important to us, and we have seen changes to the mandate as a result of the pressure we've put in those areas. 

09:55

Diolch am hynna. Felly, rydych chi fel Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod yn chwarae rôl wrth geisio llunio amcanion negodi'r Deyrnas Unedig, ond oes yna unrhyw arwydd bod y Deyrnas Unedig yn cymryd unrhyw sylw o fewnbwn Llywodraeth Cymru?

Thank you for that. So, you as the Welsh Government have been playing a role in seeking to shape the UK negotiating objectives, but is there any sign that the UK is taking any notice of the Welsh Government's input? 

Yn sicr, rydym ni wedi gweld gwahaniaeth ar climate change, so roedd hwnna'n bwynt pwysig i ni. Un o'r pethau eraill rŷn ni wedi ei danlinellu yw bod yna bwyslais yng Nghymru ar y mode 5 yma, y berthynas rhwng manufacturing a services—pan rydych chi'n gwerthu nwyddau, eich bod chi hefyd yn gallu gwerthu gwasanaeth i fynd gyda nhw. Mae hwnna yn rhan eithaf pwysig o economi Cymru. Felly, maen nhw wedi deall hynny.

Ac, unwaith eto, rŷn ni wedi bod yn pwysleisio, er enghraifft, os ydym ni'n edrych ar rules of origin, mae yna rai ardaloedd lle gallem ni fod yn gweld newidiadau a fyddai'n help i Gymru. Er enghraifft, yn textiles a lledr, mae gyda ni rywfaint o arbenigrwydd yma yng Nghymru, a hefyd SMEs. So, mae yna bwyslais eithaf trwm ar SMEs yn y cytundeb yma, ac felly mae hwnna yn rhywbeth rŷn ni wedi bod yn pwyso arno.

Unwaith eto, rŷn ni wedi bod yn pwysleisio pwysigrwydd cig coch, a beth sy'n bwysig i ni yw bod ni'n cael gwared nid jest ar y tariffs ond ar y non-tariff barriers. Mae hwnna yn bwysig i ni. 

Certainly, we've seen a difference in terms of climate change, so that was an important point for us. One of the other important things that we've highlighted is that there is an emphasis in Wales on this mode 5, the relationship between manufacturing and services—so, when you do sell goods, you should also be able to sell services. That's quite an important part of the Welsh economy. So, they've understood that. 

And, once again, we have been emphasising, for example, if we look at rules of origin, then there are certain areas where we may see changes that would be of assistance to Wales. For example, in textiles and leather, we do have some expertise in that area in Wales, and also in terms of SMEs. So, there is quite a strong emphasis on SMEs in this agreement, and therefore that is something that we have been pushing for. 

Once again, we've been emphasising the importance of red meat, and what's important for us is that we get rid of not just the tariffs, but the non-tariff barriers too. That's important to us. 

Diolch am yr ateb yna hefyd. Jest i adeiladu ar yr ateb yna, rydych chi wedi crybwyll cwpwl o feysydd eisoes, ond a ydy Llywodraeth Cymru yn pennu buddiannau penodol i Gymru yn rhan o'r trafodaethau efo Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig fel rhan o'r negodiadau yma, a hefyd, ar ben beth rydych chi wedi'i ddweud, sectorau sydd yn gwneud yn reit dda yng Nghymru fel y sector ddigidol, er enghraifft?

Thank you for that response. Just to build on it, you've mentioned a few areas already, but has the Welsh Government identified specific Welsh interests as part of the discussions with the UK Government as part of these negotiations, and also, in addition to what you've just said, sectors that are doing relatively well in Wales, such as the digital sector, for example?

So, mae yna rai ardaloedd, yn arbennig yn y maes gwasanaethau, lle rŷn ni'n meddwl y byddai rhyddhad o ryw fath yn help i ni ddatblygu'r sectorau. Mae financial and professional services yn enghraifft o hynny ac, fel rŷch chi'n dweud, yn y maes digidol. Beth sydd angen i ni weld fan hyn yw bod e'n haws i bobl broffesiynol symud o un wlad i'r llall, a hefyd bod angen sicrhau bod y qualifications sydd gan bobl yn gallu cael eu hadnabod yn Japan. Felly, mae'r rheini yn feysydd sydd yn bwysig i ni, a dwi yn meddwl lle gallem ni weld ehangiad i ni yma yng Nghymru. Ac, wrth gwrs, rydych chi'n ymwybodol fy mod i'n awyddus iawn i wthio'r sector cyber security; rŷn ni eisoes yn gwthio'r maes yma yn Japan, ond byddai rhyddhad tu fas i'r non-tariff barriers yma yn help aruthrol i ni wthio yn y sector yna hefyd.

There are certain areas, particularly in terms of services, where we believe that some sort of relief would assist us in developing those sectors. Financial and professional services is an example of that and, as you mentioned, digital too. What we need to see here is that it should be made easier for professionals to move from one country to another, and also we need to ensure that the qualifications that people have are portable and are recognised in Japan. So, those are areas that are important to us, and areas where I do think we could see some enhancement for us here in Wales. And you'll be aware that I'm very keen to push the cyber security sector; we're already pushing this in Japan, but having some sort of relaxation outwith the non-tariff barriers for us would be a huge help to us in pushing in that sector too. 

Diolch am hynna; ateb llawn iawn. Mi fyddwch chi'n gwybod, yn naturiol, fod yna gytundeb partneriaeth economaidd eisoes rhwng yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a Siapan. Felly, o gofio hynna a'r negodiadau rŵan efo Siapan, a ydy Llywodraeth Cymru, ar ben popeth rydych chi wedi ei ddweud eisoes, wedi pennu unrhyw feysydd penodol y gellir gwella arnyn nhw er mwyn elwa busnesau yng Nghymru o gymharu â beth sy'n digwydd rhwng yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a Siapan ar hyn o bryd? 

Thank you for that; a very comprehensive response. You will know that there is already an economic partnership agreement between the EU and Japan. Now, bearing that in mind and given the ongoing negotiations with Japan, in addition to what you've already said, has the Welsh Government identified any specific areas that could be enhanced in order to benefit businesses in Wales as compared to what's happening between the EU and Japan at the moment? 

Dwi'n meddwl beth sy'n bwysig yw ein bod ni'n cydnabod—. I fi, hwn yw'r cytundeb mwyaf pwysig, mewn ffordd, achos byddem ni'n mynd yn ôl o ble rydym ni ar hyn o bryd. Os ydym ni'n cael cytundeb gyda'r Unol Daleithiau, byddai'n adeiladu, ond fan hyn byddem ni'n colli yr access sydd gyda ni trwy'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac mae hwnna'n hollbwysig i ni yma yng Nghymru. Mae Huw Irranca yn ymwybodol bod Sony yn ei etholaeth e yn rhan bwysig o economi Cymru, ac mae yna lot mawr o ffatrïoedd eraill sydd wedi dod o Siapan, ac felly mae e'n bwysig i'n heconomi ni. Ond mae yna ffyrdd o fynd ymhellach, fel dwi'n ei ddweud; dwi'n meddwl mai'r ardal fyddai'n ein helpu ni yw allforion cig eidion—cig coch. Maen nhw wedi agor lan nawr yn barod am gig oen. Ac felly, mae jest cael gwared â rhai o'r barriers yna sydd mewn lle, byddai hwnna'n help aruthrol, a hefyd, fel dwi'n ei ddweud, y sector cyber security a gwasanaethau—byddai hwnna'n help aruthrol i ni.

I think what's important is that we recognise—. For me, this is, in a way, the most important agreement, because we will be moving back from where we are at the moment. If we have an agreement with the US, it will build, but here we would be losing the access that we currently have through the EU, and that's crucially important for us here in Wales. Huw Irranca will be aware that Sony in his constituency is an important part of the Welsh economy, and there are many other plants that have come from Japan, and therefore it's very important for our economy. But there are ways of making progress. I think that the area that would help us most is red meat exports. They have already opened up in terms of lamb exports. And then just getting rid of some of those barriers that are in place would be a huge assistance. And also, as I said, the cyber security and services sector—that would be a huge help to us.

10:00

Diolch yn fawr. A'r cwestiwn olaf gen i rŵan, a chyfle i chi jest i bwysleisio'r prif bwyntiau. Wrth gwrs, dŷn ni'n gwybod bod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn gofyn am beth maen nhw'n ei alw yn ymrwymiadau uchelgeisiol gan Siapan, o ran masnachu gwasanaethau—dŷch chi wedi cyfeirio at hynny eisoes. Allaf i jest gofyn i chi, i orffen, pa rwystrau di-dariff penodol i sectorau penodol ddylai'r Deyrnas Unedig fod yn ceisio cael gwared â nhw i gefnogi allforwyr gwasanaethau Cymru?

Thank you very much. And a final question from me now, and an opportunity for you just to emphasise the main points here perhaps. We know that the UK Government is seeking what they call ambitious commitments from Japan regarding trade in services, and you've already mentioned that. So can I ask you what sector-specific non-tariff barriers should the UK be seeking to remove, in order to support Wales's service exporters?

Wel, dwi'n meddwl y byddai cydnabod professional qualifications yn help aruthrol. Dwi'n meddwl y byddai cael gwared â rhai o'r barriers o ran allforion bwyd—mae yna rai rhwystredigaethau dal yna o hyd. Ac felly, byddai'r rheini yn feysydd, yn sicr, y byddem ni eisiau gweld bod y barriers yna yn dod i lawr. Felly, dyna ble y gallem ni elwa o ble ydym ni ar hyn o bryd gyda'r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Felly, yn sicr, y cytundeb gyda'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, byddem ni eisiau hwnna fel isafswm o ble byddem ni eisiau bod yn y dyfodol. Ond, os yn bosib, dŷn ni eisiau adeiladu ar ben hynny.

Well, I think recognising professional qualifications would be a huge assistance. I think scrapping some of the barriers in terms of food exports—there are still some frustrations in that area. So those would certainly be areas where we would want to see the barriers removed. So that's where we could benefit in terms of where we are now with the European Union. So, certainly, we would want to take the EU agreement, and use that as a starting point, or a baseline, for the future. But, if possible, we would want to build on that.

Before I move onto some questions on the tech side of things—you already highlighted cyber security as an area of interest for the Welsh Government—in the EU-Japan agreement, the economic partnership agreement, there's currently clearly a position, particularly in relation to tariffs being removed, there's a timespan that some of those tariffs are being moved over, maybe between seven and 15 years. There is a possibility that, in their negotiations with the UK, Japan might want to remove that timespan, and look at perhaps—and I take the example of manufacturing, of Japanese cars coming in instantly, without any tariff barriers whatsoever.

Now, I must take a personal interest, in the sense that my constituency has a steel works that supplies steel to many motor manufacturers, and a sudden release of cheaper imported cars could have a major impact upon their clients. Has the Welsh Government reviewed the possibilities of these types of events, and made sure that the UK Government is aware of them, so that we maintain the current businesses, and don't have them face another challenge in a global market that is already difficult?

I think this is one of the issues with trade, isn't it—that you've got to balance consumer and producer interests. And, if you look at the relationship and the agreement between the EU and Japan, at the moment, this is quite new—they are now able to import [correction: export] tariff-free into the EU; that was never the case before. And don't forget that's part of the reason why a lot of companies base themselves in places like Wales, in the north of England, so that they could get tariff-free access into the EU. And the question now is: 'Look, if they get it tariff-free, why wouldn't they just make them in Japan, and ship them over?' So, it's not as if this is going to go away if we don't have an agreement. I think what's important is that we look at that balance of interests, as you say, but those imports are likely to happen anyway. So we've got to balance off how we can use and keep those markets—so using steel from Tata to make cars. The key there for me is making sure that we still have access to the EU market, and that's what will keep Japanese producers here. If they can get tariff-free access, and we have to be paying 10 per cent for automotives to go into the EU, then it's going to be extremely difficult for the automotive sector in Wales. 

10:05

That's a slightly different answer to the question. The question was looking at whether the changes that might come as an agreement could impact upon current manufacturing in Wales that is not Japanese based but of another base, which serves other client markets. As such, have you been able to relay that type of discussion to the UK Government, as they've talked about the negotiations, to ensure that any agreement offers that particular balance you mentioned, so that we don't get a sudden impact upon our manufacturing sector in Wales?  

We've made it clear that, if we are going to see changes in terms of relationship, what we'd like is a longer period so that we don't have that brutal change. And we've made that clear not just with the US negotiations, but also with the Japan negotiations. So, we do need a lead-in time so that we can adapt and prepare those industries that may be affected to a greater degree. 

Mandy, did you want to ask a specific question on this? 

Yes. I want to go back to the international relationships, following on from Dave. We know that the UK Government's going to put the UK first in any deal, and that includes putting Wales's best interests at heart too. They're not going to accept a bad deal for any part of the union. Even a bare-bones trade deal would be sufficient, especially to avoid the Northern Ireland protocol kicking in. Bearing this in mind, what else would you liked to have seen or done that you think the Welsh Government would have been able to influence with the UK Government's ongoing talks on trade deals with Japan and the US?  

I think we have already—. As I've said before, we have already influenced those deals and influenced the UK negotiating position. Of course, when people go into a trade negotiation, let's not pretend that people are going in it for the benefit of the other partner. You can be absolutely clear that the US is going to put the US first, and we should be putting the UK first.

But I think there is a political angle to this as well though, because the pressure on the UK Government, when they are floundering around so much on the EU deal, to try and land a deal anywhere else may mean that we'll see compromises in areas that they wouldn't want to do and that we wouldn't want them to see, as a result of the political pressure that they feel that they're under. We haven't seen that yet, but as the end of the year comes closer, we may see—we may see—the UK Government, and we would resist this massively—. But we don't want to see them signing up to something that is not in our interests. And it seems very odd, doesn't it, that, even a suggestion, for example, on allowing chlorinated chicken or something to come in, we would be happier to protect US consumers than we would be to protect UK consumers? That can't be a good place to negotiate. 

Because it's a supplementary—is it anything specifically on this point? 

Well, Dai is going to come back in on the issues that I think you want to come in on, behind him, on that.  

Could I just ask one thing on the trade negotiations? UK tech, clearly, is an important aspect. As I said, you mentioned cyber security already; it will be a critical aspect regarding negotiations with Japan. What's your response to the current UK Government's view to trade strategy for UK tech? And how does it tie in with the Welsh Government's international strategy? 

I'm afraid, the department for trade and investment didn't consult the Welsh Government on its trade strategy for the UK tech, prior to publication, which was a massive disappointment, particularly as they'd received a copy of the international strategy and they were very clear of the fact that, actually, tech was a really key part of that. But, listen, I think it's good that we've got this new strategy for tech; I think it's an area where the UK has real world-leadership potential. So, I think, just generally, it's really important that we see that robust proposition for tech, in particular fintech—financial tech. And I think there's a real opportunity for us to expand in this market.

10:10

So, just to clarify, the strategy was put into action, or put into play in the public domain without consultation with the Welsh Government.

In a sense, you've indicated that, on the negotiations with Japan and the US, you had some indication of the—[Inaudible.]—but on this one, you didn't have any indication at all.

This was a particular sectoral approach to see how they could market the UK in terms of tech in future. Listen, we support any support to increase tech exports, and we're pretty good at it in Wales, but that's why it was slightly disappointing that we hadn't been consulted.

Minister, we'll always listen to you. Okay. Dai, into questions on inter-governmental relationships.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Jest rhai pethau penodol. Allwch chi olrhain pryd bydd y concordat ar fasnach ryngwladol yn cael ei lofnodi yn y lle cyntaf?

Thank you very much, Chair. Just a few specifics. Can you set out when the concordat for international trade will be signed, first of all?

Wel, rŷn ni wedi bod yn pwyso am hyn ers misoedd lawer, fel rŷch chi'n ymwybodol. Wrth gwrs, y concordat yw'r broses o sut mae'r devolved administrations yn ymwneud gyda'r trafodaethau ynglŷn â masnach. Beth sydd wedi digwydd hyd yn hyn yw mae swyddogion wedi gweld drafft ohono, ac rŷn ni'n eithaf cyfforddus, mwy neu lai, gyda ble mae'r drafft ar hyn o bryd. Ond, rŷn ni'n aros am y write-around yna tu mewn i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, achos mae'n ehangach na jest edrych ar fasnach.

Ond, o ran bod yn bositif, mae Llywodraeth Prydain yn actio, mwy neu lai, fel petai'r concordat yn ei le yn barod. So, eisoes, mae trafodaeth gyda Gweinidogion yn digwydd yn rheolaidd. O ran y Trade Bill, maen nhw wedi addo i ni nawr y bydd despatch box commitment fydd, mwy neu lai, yn dweud beth rŷn ni'n disgwyl ei weld yn y concordat. A dwi wedi pwysleisio dro ar ôl tro i'r Gweinidog priodol ein blaenoriaeth ni i setlo y concordat yma cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl. Yn amlwg, mae COIVD wedi cael effaith ar eu gallu nhw i gael y cytundeb yma yn y Llywodraeth.

Well, we've been pushing for this for very many months, as you're aware. Of course, the concordat is the process in terms of how the devolved administrations do engage with trade negotiations. Now, what's happened to date is that officials have seen a draft, and we are relatively comfortable, in terms of where that's at at the moment. But we are waiting for that write-around within the UK Government, because it is broader than simply looking at trade.

But in terms of being positive, the UK Government is acting as though the concordats are already in place. And, therefore, there are already discussions at a ministerial level happening regularly. In terms of the Trade Bill, they have pledged that there will be a despatch box commitment that will, more or less, set out what we expect to see in the concordat. And I've emphasised time and again to the relevant Minister that our priority is to settle this concordat as soon as possible. Obviously, COIVD's had an impact on their ability to get this concordat in place within Government.

Diolch am hynny. Felly, allwch chi gadarnhau bod y drafft o'r concordat ar y fasnach ryngwladol mae'ch swyddogion wedi'i weld—? Fedrwch chi gadarnhau bod gwaith Llywodraeth Cymru, sydd eisoes wedi bod yn seiliedig arno, yn cynnig y rôl y byddai Llywodraeth Cymru yn dymuno ei chael yn nhrafodaethau masnach y Deyrnas Unedig yn y dyfodol? Hynny yw, ydych chi'n hapus efo'r drafft yna? Ac allaf i eich pwsio chi ychydig ymhellach ar bryd yn union ydych chi'n gallu gweld bydd yna lofnodi ar y concordat?

Thank you for that. Therefore, can you confirm that the draft concordat on international trade that your officials have seen—? Can you confirm that that draft and that the Welsh Government's work does give the Welsh Government its desired role in future UK trade negotiations? Are you happy with that draft? And can I just push you a little further as to when you would expect see that the concordat signed?

Wel, beth rŷn ni wedi bod yn pwyso amdano yw bod yna rôl i Gymru, o ran pre-negotiations; beth sy'n digwydd os nad ŷm ni'n cytuno—beth yw'r dispute mechanism—bod yna fforwm yn cael ei sefydlu ar gyfer masnach; bod yna fanylion ynglŷn â sut rŷn ni'n rhannu gwybodaeth. Felly, mae hynny i gyd, mwy neu lai, yn digwydd. Felly, o ran hynny, rŷn ni'n eithaf cyfforddus.

Yr unig beth sydd ar ôl i ni gytuno arni yw beth yw'n rôl ni yn y trafodaethau eu hunain. Nawr, erbyn i chi gyrraedd y trafodaethau, mae popeth, mwy neu lai, yn ei le; rŷch chi'n gwybod beth yw'r mandate, ac ati. Felly, mae'r rôl cyn hynny, os rhywbeth, yn bwysicach. Ond hwnna yw'r unig beth rŷn ni'n dal i aros i'w glywed, ac rŷn ni wedi ei gwneud hi'n glir y byddem ni'n hoffi cael sedd wrth y bwrdd, os yn bosibl. Ond hwnnw yw'r unig beth rŷn ni'n aros i glywed arno nawr.

Well, what we've been pushing for is that there should be a role for Wales in terms of the pre-negotiations; what happens if we don't reach agreement—what the dispute mechanism is—that there should be a forum established for trade; that details as to how we share information are provided. All of that, more or less, is happening. So, from that perspective, we're quite comfortable.

All that remains for us to agree is what our role in the negotiations themselves should be. By the time you get to the negotiations, virtually everything's in place; you know what the mandate is. So, the prior role is, perhaps, more important. But that's the only thing that we're still waiting to hear on, and we have made it clear that we would like a seat at the table, if possible. But that's the only thing that we're waiting to hear on.

Ac oes gobaith bod yna symud ar y mater yna, neu fydd y concordat yma yn aros heb ei lofnodi?

Is there any hope that there will be any movement on that, or will this concordat remain unsigned?

Wel, rŷn ni'n gobeithio y bydd e'n cael ei lofnod; rŷn ni wedi gofyn dro ar ôl tro i'r Gweinidog. Maen nhw'n deall pa mor bwysig yw hi i ni ein bod ni'n cael rhywbeth ffurfiol yn ei le. Felly, ar hyn o bryd, mae'n gweithio, ond dyw e ddim yn ffurfiol. Felly, i fi, mae'n bwysig ein bod ni yn cario ymlaen i bwyso. Ond, na, does dim eglurder eto ynglŷn â phryd bydd hynny'n digwydd.

Well, we hope that it'll be signed; we've asked time and time again. They understand how important it is to for us that we do have something formal in place. So, at the moment, it's working, but it's informal. So, for me, it is important that we continue to keep the pressure up. But there is no clarity as of yet as to when that will happen.

10:15

Diolch am hynna. A jest cwestiwn cyffredinol i gloi—rydych chi wedi cyfeirio, wrth basio, eisoes at y coronafeirws, felly allaf i jest ofyn yn gyffredinol: ydych chi fel Llywodraeth Cymru wedi asesu effaith y coronafeirws ar fasnach ryngwladol Cymru?

Thank you for that. Just a general question to conclude—you've mentioned, in passing, coronavirus, so can I ask you in general terms whether you as Welsh Government have assessed the impact of coronavirus on Welsh international trade?

Wel, os ydych chi'n edrych ar effaith coronafeirws ar fasnach ryngwladol, mae'r World Trade Organisation wedi dweud ei bod hi'n mynd i ddisgyn 30 y cant, ac wrth gwrs mae hwnna yn bownd o gael effaith yma yng Nghymru hefyd. Mae 80 o wledydd yn y byd wedi rhoi rhyw fath o restrictions yn eu lle o ran allforion, sy'n ymwneud â COVID-19. Felly, yn amlwg, rŷch chi wedi gweld bod lot o wledydd wedi dweud dŷn nhw ddim yn fodlon allforio PPE ac ati.

Felly, yn amlwg, mae yna effaith aruthrol ar yr economi. Mae'r analysis rŷn ni wedi gwneud hyd yn hyn wedi dangos bod y GDP yng Nghymru yn y chwarter cyntaf wedi disgyn 2.5 y cant, o'i gymharu gyda 2 y cant dros Brydain, ond, wrth gwrs, rŷn ni'n disgwyl y bydd hynny'n waeth yn ystod y chwarter nesaf. Felly, beth rŷn ni'n treial ei wneud yw sicrhau ein bod ni'n cael y dealltwriaeth mwyaf eang posibl, gan gynnwys—un o'r pethau rŷn ni wedi ei wneud yw trade survey. So, rŷn ni'n aros i gael canlyniadau o'r trade survey. Bydd hwnna'n dod mas cyn bo hir.

Rŷn ni wedi cael cyfarfod gyda'r Trade Advisory Board. Maen nhw wedi bod yn dweud wrthym ni sut effaith mae masnach neu ddiffyg masnach wedi'i chael ar eu sectorau nhw ac, wrth gwrs, mae rhai ohonyn nhw'n ardaloedd rili sensitif inni yng Nghymru—so, rŷch chi'n meddwl am aerospace, rŷch chi'n meddwl am Airbus, rŷch chi'n meddwl am GE. Mae lot o'r cwmnïau yma mewn meysydd sydd yn fwy sensitif nag eraill i coronafeirws, felly. Ond, ar y llaw arall, mae yna rai busnesau sydd wedi gweld ehangu, sy'n eithaf diddorol. So, chi'n gweld compound semiconductors, er enghraifft: mae hwnna actually wedi gweld ehangu yn y maes yn ystod y cyfnod yma.

Well, if you look at the impact of coronavirus on international trade, the World Trade Organisation has said that it'll be reducing by 30 per cent, and of course that is bound to have an impact here in Wales. Eighty nations have placed restrictions in place in terms of exports related to COVID-19. So, clearly, you've seen that a number of nations have said that they're not willing to export personal protective equipment, for example.

So, clearly, there's a huge economic impact. The analysis that we've carried out to date has shown that Welsh GDP in the first quarter fell by 2.5 per cent, as compared to 2 per cent across the UK, but, of course, we expect that to be worse during the next quarter. So, what we're trying to do is to ensure that we do have the broadest possible understanding of the situation, including—one of the things that we have done is a trade survey. So, we are awaiting the results of that trade survey, which will be available soon.

We've had a meeting with the Trade Advisory Board, where they've been telling us what impact lack of trade has had in their sectors and some of them are very sensitive for us here in Wales, if you think of aerospace, Airbus, GE. So, many of these companies work in areas that are more sensitive than others in terms of the impact of coronavirus, but, on the other hand, there are some businesses that have seen expansion, which is quite interesting. So, you see compound semiconductors, where there has been expansion in that area during this period. 

Okay. Minister, GDP, as you've just said, has fallen all over the world and will continue to do so while we're in lockdown, so the sooner that's lifted the better. Just one final thing I'd like to ask you: I noticed in England, on the motorways—before lockdown, I might add—that the motorway signage displayed notices for lorry drivers and hauliers about getting their paperwork ready and showing options for where and how to do this. Were there no such instructions in Wales on Welsh motorways and do you think now that most businesses are pretty clear on what paperwork is needed for imports and exports to whichever country?

Sorry, Mandy, I haven't understood what paperwork you're referring to. Are you referring to paperwork that will come as a result of a 'no deal' Brexit?

No. Paperwork either with a deal for imports and exports, or with a 'no deal'. Has it been—? What I'm on about is that England has put those notices and signs on the motorway: 'Lorry drivers: get your paperwork ready, this is where to go, this is the number to call to get further advice.' Why haven't we done that in Wales and do you think now that Welsh businesses here, whether they're exporting or importing from the EU or to the rest of the world, are quite capable and have the knowledge now to put their paperwork forward for their imports and their exports?

Well, we've done a huge amount of work in trying to contact people who work in particular—those people who are transporting goods from one country to another. The only issue—. And we've been pushing that for a number of months, obviously. That will obviously ramp up as we come closer to a 'no deal' situation or a changed deal situation. The problem we have at the moment, Mandy, is we don't know what the situation will be. So, to give advice to people on, 'Get your paperwork ready' when we have no idea what paperwork they should be getting ready is really difficult. So, it doesn't make any sense to be telling them at this point what they should be doing because, frankly, none of us have any idea. 

10:20

Thank you. We move on to Alun Davies, because we still have questions on the Trade Bill. Alun, you've got 10 minutes.

Ten minutes. [Laughter.] Minister, I watched the Welsh Government press conference yesterday on the coronavirus. The First Minister characterised the relationship with the United Kingdom Government yesterday as being at a stop in terms of his relationship with the Prime Minister. How would you characterise your relationship with UK Government?

In relation to trade, in my area—not on the EU, but outside of the EU—I think it's been fairly positive. I had a very good relationship with the previous Minister, Conor Burns, and now Greg Hands seems to be continuing in that same vein. Certainly, in terms of the relationship between the officials, I think Emma would agree that that has been a really positive relationship, and I think it's just worth underlining the differences in approach from the UK Government. So, why is it, in one department, that they are so ready and willing to engage with us, and then, on the EU, there's very, very little contact? So, there's no consistency in terms of approach and we've certainly been pushing Conor Burns previously, and Greg Hands now, to say, 'Look, please understand the need for consistency here and understand the need for engagement, because we have to implement whatever you agree to. And devolution kicks in here, and you need to understand that.' So, generally, my relationship has been quite positive.

Good, and I'm glad to hear that. I'm interested in the differential that you've made in answering that question between non-EU and EU. Let's chase after the EU relationship for a moment. Can you describe the contacts that you have had and your officials have had since your last appearance before this committee, and the efforts, if you like, that the Welsh Government has made in order to engage with the United Kingdom Government to resolve these matters?

So, I can tell you what my relationship has been in terms of that ministerial engagement; I can't tell you what the Counsel General's engagement has been on Brexit. But, certainly, it's been very consistent: we've had two ministerial trade meetings; we've had bilateral meetings on top of that. I know that the officials are having daily engagement, I think it's fair to say. And also we haven't just been engaging with the UK Ministers—also, I've been trying to develop a relationship with the other Ministers in this space around the United Kingdom, so I've been speaking to my Scottish counterpart just to see, where possible, if we can be on the same page, and that, obviously, makes a lot of sense and increases our leverage, hopefully, when we go into negotiations with the UK Government.

So, it has been consistent, it has been regular, and, generally, I think there's very little room for complaint. One area where we are concerned is in terms of where the lines are, when they share information relating to devolution. So, devolution, they're really good; they show us most things—everything. The areas that are reserved but may have an impact on Wales—not quite so much consistency there.

Okay. This is very interesting, because it goes to the heart of the United Kingdom as a state and its capacity to work effectively together. Chair, it might be useful—I don't want to take up people's time this morning trying to pursue this, but it might be useful were we to ask both the Minister in front of us today and also the Counsel General for a schedule of contacts between themselves and their officials and UK Ministers and officials over the last few months, so that we can actually have an understanding of the depth of this contact as these negotiations continue. Is that something we could be provided with?

That would be interesting, thank you. In terms of the Trade Bill, which I understand is in committee today, or this week, in the House of Commons, you had—in previous conversations you have explained, Minister, that you were seeking some commitments from the United Kingdom Government in terms of use of powers, of current powers, and the rest of it. You've received some assurances from previous Ministers, and you've said that you are seeking commitments from the despatch box or where else from current Ministers. Where are you with that? Is the Bill somewhere where you feel comfortable, or are there still outstanding issues where you believe the UK Government needs to make some movement?

10:25

So, I think, in relation to despatch box commitments and what our role is in terms of trade agreements, we have been assured now by the Minister, Greg Hands, that he will make a despatch box commitment as was made in the last Trade Bill. So, we're comfortable that those commitments in terms of our role in trade deals will be respected. The general procurement part of the Trade Bill—that is mostly a commitment to continuing the existing situation, so there's going to be a little bit of technical changes going on there. The Trade Remedies Authority—so, we're fairly comfortable with what is being suggested there. And, on Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, that's something that is pretty much UK based. So, there have been a few changes, but, if anything, the changes that have been made are in the interests of Wales. There are a few things that were amendments that were made by people outside of Government that haven't been accepted. Some of those would have been of benefit to us, but, obviously, when it comes to an LCM, we have to be quite focused on the devolved aspects of it. 

Okay. The section 109 power—or Order, sorry—that you've described previously—you've sort of indicated in that reply that you regard that as a reasonably positive process, with an Order that will provide for a protection or even enhancement of current powers. Could you build on that reply a little, please?

So, what's clear is, in the past, if we wanted to make changes in Wales, we'd have had to have the agreement of the UK Government, even if they were devolved responsibilities. That situation has now changed so that we will be able to make those changes without getting the agreement of the UK Government. So, I think, in terms of devolution, that's a step forward.

Well, yes, certainly. And that is the extent of the current section 109 Order.

Yes. So, it will be easier for the Senedd to remove the powers of Ministers of the Crown related to devolved competence. So, that's where we're at in relation to that. That will mean changing the Wales Act [correction: Government of Wales Act 2006], of course, so that is something that I think we should welcome.

Hallelujah, yes. Some of us have been arguing for the removal of some of those powers for some years, so I think we would welcome any diminution in Minister of State powers in that sense.

I'm very content with those answers, Chair; I don't have any further questions.

Thank you very much. Minister, we've come to the end of the allotted time, and with virtual systems we tend to stick to the times far more rigidly sometimes than we would normally when we sit in committee. So, I thank you for your attendance today and for your answers. You will receive a copy of the transcript for accuracy. If there are any factual inaccuracies, please let the clerking teams know as soon as possible, so we can have them corrected. So, once again, thank you for your time and we look forward to continuing our conversations as the negotiations with other nations go ahead. Thank you.

3. Papurau i'w nodi
3. Papers to note

For members of the committee, we move on to the next item, which is papers to note. The first paper is a paper by Professor Elaine Fahey on digital trade and data equivalency, and I thank her for her submission. She represents City Law School, City, University of London. It's a very interesting paper relating to digital trade—one of the issues we've just been talking about now. So, are Members happy to note that paper? I see they are.

The second one is correspondence from the chair of the House of Lords International Agreements Sub-Committee regarding the House of Lords inquiries on trade negotiations. Are Members content to note that? We may discuss a response, or if we wish to have a response, in our private session. Are Members content to note the paper? I see they are. Thank you for that. 

10:30
4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Then, we move on to the next item, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of today's meeting. Are Members content to do so and to move into private session? They are. Therefore, we will now close the meeting for the public and move into private session.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:31.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 10:31.