Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Yn ôl i Chwilio

Y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad

Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee


Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Carwyn Jones AS
Dai Lloyd AS
Mick Antoniw AS Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Suzy Davies AS

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Craig Griffiths Ymchwilydd
Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Katie Wyatt Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Lucy Valsamidis Ymchwilydd
Nia Moss Ymchwilydd
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Rachael Davies Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:00.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 10:00. 

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Welcome, Members, to the third virtual meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, published last Thursday. This meeting is however being broadcast live on and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. So, aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting meetings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place.

We have a full committee today and there are no apologies. Housekeeping arrangements: basically, can Members ensure that their mobile devices are switched to silent? The Welsh Parliament operates through the medium of the Welsh and English languages. Interpretation is available during this morning's meeting, and Members are reminded that the sound operator is controlling the microphones and, as such, you do not need to mute and unmute yourselves during the meeting. I would ask if there's any declarations of interest, and I don't see any.

2. Offerynnau sy'n codi materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i'r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
2. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

So, in those circumstances, I'll move straight on to item 2, which is the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020. You'll have before you the report, the regulations, the explanatory memorandum and the letter from the First Minister to the Llywydd of 24 April 2020. That's at pack page 21. It explains that these regulations require approval by Senedd Cymru under the emergency procedure of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. Specifically, these regulations make amendments in relation to termination directions, physical distancing requirements, restrictions on being outside the place people live and enforcement, as well as making further minor and consequential amendments to the principal regulations. Just a reminder that Standing Order 21.32 relates to matters of a political or legal importance or that give rise to issues of public policy of interest to the Senedd. Perhaps I'll refer over now to you, Gareth, for any comments from the lawyers.

Diolch. There are two merits points, starting on pack page one. The first point relates to human rights and identification of the specific human rights that are in play. The human rights paragraphs in the explanatory memorandum make only general reference to the European convention on human rights, without identifying the specific human rights that are engaged. Further, the explanatory memorandum does not include any detail about how interference with human rights is justified, and as serious as the coronavirus pandemic is, it's still important to be able to justify interference with human rights. But none of this is to say that there have been any breach of human rights, of course.

No Welsh Government response has been received yet, but perhaps the committee could keep an eye on the drafting of the explanatory memorandum for the next set of coronavirus regulations.

The second merits point is a citation of the powers that give the Welsh Ministers authority to make subordinate legislation. If the enabling Act has a section containing the main enabling power and another section containing examples of how the main enabling power can be used, do you cite both the section containing the main enabling power and the section containing the examples, or do you cite just the main enabling power? The draft report asks the Welsh Government to clarify its approach to the citation of enabling powers, but no Government response has been received yet.

Just to see whether we can get a Government response by Wednesday, when this is—I think that's when it's due to be discussed in Plenary, isn't it?

My understanding is that it's going to be 20 May. Is that right, Gareth?

Okay, whichever it is, but let's see if we can get the response by then. Thanks.

Na, dim byd ychwanegol yn rhedeg off yr adroddiad.

No, nothing to add to what's contained within the report.


Okay. I mean, this is an important matter and, certainly, I think in any report that we make to the Plenary and in the comments that I make introducing that, I think I'll need to make specific reference to the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. These are important changes, they're important powers, and I think it's very important that that is very clear in the report that we deliver. So, if there are no other comments on this then I'll move on to the next item.

3. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3 ond sydd â goblygiadau o ganlyniad i ymadawiad y DU â'r UE
3. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 but have implications as a result of the UK exiting the EU

Item 3 is the Direct Payments to Farmers (Crop Diversification Derogation) (Wales) Regulations 2020. And, again, you have all the relevant papers before you. These regulations make a derogation from Regulation (EU) No. 1307/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing direct payments to farmers under support schemes within the framework of the common agricultural policy. Under these regulations, the crop diversification requirements are disapplied in Wales in respect of claim year 2020. Any comments from the lawyers?

The draft report notes that although support schemes for farmers have previously been a matter of EU law, the rules around direct payments to farmers have already been brought within domestic law. Here, the crop diversification rules are being disapplied because farmers are finding it difficult to comply with the crop diversification rules due to the widespread flooding caused by storm Ciara and storm Dennis. Failure to comply with crop diversification rules would normally affect the farmer's right to claim certain support scheme payments, but these regulations provide otherwise.

4. Papurau i’w nodi
4. Papers to note

Okay. So we then move on to item 4, papers to note. A letter from the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs: statutory instrument consent memorandum for the Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Act 2020 (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2020. Members are just invited to note the letter from the Minister, which confirms that she has laid a statutory instrument consent memorandum in respect of the Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Act 2020, and the statutory instrument consent will be considered at next week's meeting.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting


bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

We now have a number of matters to consider in private session relating to reporting on the Fisheries Bill and the Agriculture Bill. So, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Do Members agree?

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:08.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 10:08.

Dysgu am Senedd Cymru