Y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Chwaraeon - Y Bumed Senedd
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee - Fifth Senedd11/12/2019
Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
|Angela Burns AC|
|Dai Lloyd AC||Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor|
|David Rees AC|
|Jayne Bryant AC|
|Joyce Watson AC||Yn dirprwyo ar ran Lynne Neagle|
|Substitute for Lynne Neagle|
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
|Frances Duffy||Cyfarwyddwr Gofal Sylfaenol a Gwyddor Iechyd, Llywodraeth Cymru|
|Director, Primary Care and Health Science, Welsh Government|
|Sarah Tyler||Cyfreithiwr, Llywodraeth Cymru|
|Lawyer, Welsh Government|
|Vaughan Gething AM||Y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol|
|Minister for Health and Social Services|
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
|Lowri Jones||Dirprwy Glerc|
|Samiwel Davies||Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol|
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:34.
The meeting began at 09:34.
Bore da, a chroeso i gyfarfod diweddaraf y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Chwaraeon, yma yn y Senedd. O dan eitem 1 y bore yma, allaf i groesawu fy nghyd-Aelodau i'r pwyllgor? Dŷn ni wedi derbyn ymddiheuriadau oddi wrth Helen Mary Jones ac oddi wrth Lynne Neagle, ac mae Joyce Watson yma yn dirprwyo ar ran Lynne Neagle. Ac yn nhermau buddiannau, buasai'n well i mi ddatgan buddiant fel meddyg teulu sydd wedi talu indemniadau yn y gorffennol, ond nid nawr yn gweithio fel meddyg, felly does gen i ddim budd personol yn y mater gerbron. Unrhyw ddatgan buddiant arall gan rywun? Nac oes.
Felly, rydym ni'n symud ymlaen i, bellach, esbonio bod y cyfarfod yma, yn naturiol, yn ddwyieithog, felly defnyddir clustffonau i glywed cyfieithu ar y pryd o'r Gymraeg i'r Saesneg ar sianel 1 neu i glywed cyfraniadau yn yr iaith wreiddiol yn well ar sianel 2. Ac, os bydd larwm tân, dylid dilyn cyfarwyddiadau'r tywyswyr.
Good morning, and welcome to the latest meeting of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, here at the Senedd. Under item 1 this morning, may I welcome my fellow Members to the committee? We've received apologies from Helen Mary Jones and from Lynne Neagle, and Joyce Watson is here substituting for Lynne Neagle. And in terms of interests, I have an interest to declare as a general practitioner who has paid indemnities in the past, but I am not currently working as a doctor, so I don't have any personal interest in the issue at hand. Does anyone else have an interest to declare? No.
Therefore, I will further explain that this meeting is bilingual, and headphones can be used for simultaneous interpretation from Welsh to English on channel 1 or for amplification on channel 2. And, should the fire alarm sound, people should follow the directions of the ushers.
Mae hynna i gyd yn dod â ni i eitem 2, a trafodion Cyfnod 2 Bil y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Indemniadau) (Cymru). Diben y cyfarfod yma, yn naturiol, fel mae Aelodau yn gwybod eisoes, ydy cynnal trafodion Cyfnod 2 ar Fil y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Indemniadau) (Cymru). Mewn perthynas â'r eitem hon, dylai fod gan yr Aelodau o'u blaenau y rhestr o welliannau sydd wedi eu didoli a'r gwelliannau wedi eu grwpio i'w hystyried. Y rhestr o welliannau wedi'u didoli ydy'r rhestr o'r holl welliannau a gyflwynwyd wedi'u didoli yn y drefn y mae'r adrannau yn ymddangos yn y Bil. Felly, ar gyfer y cyfarfod hwn, y drefn ar gyfer ystyried y gwelliannau fydd adrannau 1 i 2, ac wedyn y teitl hir. Gallwch weld o'r ddogfen grwpio gwelliannau fod y gwelliannau wedi'u grwpio i hwyluso'r drafodaeth, ond mae'r drefn y cânt eu galw a'u cynnig er mwyn gwneud penderfyniad arnynt yn dilyn y rhestr o welliannau wedi'u didoli.
Bydd angen i'r Aelodau ddilyn y ddau bapur, er y byddaf yn rhoi gwybod i'r Aelodau wrth alw arnyn nhw a ydynt yn cael eu galw i siarad yn y ddadl ynteu i gynnig eu gwelliannau er mwyn gwneud penderfyniad arnynt. Bydd un ddadl ar bob grŵp o welliannau. Dylai unrhyw Aelod sy'n dymuno siarad am grŵp penodol gyfleu hynny yn y modd arferol. Byddaf yn galw ar y Gweinidog i siarad am bob grŵp. Yn unol â'r arfer, ni ddisgwylir i gynghorwyr cyfreithiol y pwyllgor a'r Gweinidog ddarparu cyngor ar lafar yn ystod y cyfarfod. Os bydd yr Aelodau yn dymuno gofyn am gyngor cyfreithiol yn ystod y trafodaethau, dylid gwneud hynny drwy basio nodyn i'r cynghorydd cyfreithiol. Felly, dyna osod cyd-destun y trafodaethau.
Having said that, we move on to item 2, and Stage 2 proceedings for the National Health Service (Indemnities) (Wales) Bill. The purpose of this meeting, as Members will already know, is to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the National Health Service (Indemnities) (Wales) Bill. In relation to this item, Members should have before them the marshalled list of amendments and the groupings of the amendments for debate. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all the amendments tabled, marshalled in the order in which the sections appear in the Bill. So, for this meeting, the order in which we consider amendments will be sections 1 to 2, and then the long title. You'll see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate, but the order in which they are called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list.
Members will need to follow the two papers, although I will advise Members when I call them whether they're being called to speak to the debate or to move their amendments for a decision. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. Members who wish to speak on a particular group should indicate this in the usual way. I will call on the Minister to speak on each group. In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser. So, that sets the context for our discussions.
Felly, Bil y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Indemniadau) (Cymru). Grŵp 1 o welliannau sydd gerbron: y dyletswydd i lunio a chyhoeddi adroddiad ar effaith y Ddeddf hon—gwelliant 1. Fel dwi wedi dweud eisoes, mae grŵp 1 yn ymwneud â dyletswydd i lunio a chyhoeddi adroddiad ar effaith y Ddeddf hon. Yr unig welliant yn y grŵp yma ydy gwelliant 1 yn enw Angela Burns, felly galwaf ar Angela Burns i gynnig gwelliant 1 a siarad amdano. Angela.
So, the National Health Service (Indemnities) (Wales) Bill, and group 1 of the amendments are before us. So, group 1: duty to prepare and publish a report on the effect of this Act—amendment 1. As I have already said, group 1 relates to a duty to prepare and publish a report on the effect of this Bill, and the only amendment in this group is amendment 1 in the name of Angela Burns. So, I call on Angela Burns to move and speak to amendment 1. Angela.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1 (Angela Burns).
Amendment 1 (Angela Burns) moved.
Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Minister. I've tabled amendment 1 in order to ensure that the National Assembly has sight of how the National Health Service (Indemnities) (Wales) Bill is working in practice. The Bill was brought before the Assembly very quickly and I do have sympathy with your reasoning. You were keen to ensure that this legislation would be in place by April 2020. However, the Welsh Government did signal their policy intent in May 2018 and we believe the Bill could have been brought forward earlier and have allowed for further engagement between stakeholders, Welsh Government and committees, as found in the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee report.
Even now, the Medical Defence Union are still not on board, and they are the largest representation of Welsh general practitioners at present. As an Assembly, the Welsh Conservatives believe that we need to be able to scrutinise the effectiveness of the new scheme. We're not seeking to place on the face of the Bill anything overly onerous, but we just believe that, within a statutory time frame, there should be a report that deals with issues such as the take-up by GPs and representative groups, the cross-border effects that may be in play because of this Bill, any changes to the costs involved.
And therefore I wish to move amendment 1 to the Bill in which we seek to address the addition of a duty to prepare and publish a report on the effect of this Act.
Diolch yn fawr, Angela. A oes Aelodau eraill yn dymuno siarad ar y gwelliant yma? Nac oes. Galwaf felly ar y Gweinidog i siarad i'r gwelliant yma—y Gweinidog.
Thank you very much, Angela. Does any other Member wish to speak to this amendment? No. Then I call on the Minister to speak to this amendment—Minister.
Thank you, Cadeirydd, and good morning.
In speaking to the amendments, I want to set out that we're looking at a specific piece of legislation to cover a specific part of the GP indemnity scheme. So, this is about the existing liability scheme. It's worth reminding ourselves that a future liability scheme is already in place, has been implemented by regulations that we have made and, of course, there isn't a reporting requirement that relates to the future liability scheme. This amendment would require us to provide a report in 18 months on the existing liability scheme. Now, there'd be an odd thing there about having part of the report around a part of the GP indemnity landscape that we're seeking to introduce.
This isn't a new policy intent, if you like, because we set out some time ago where we wanted to go, and there's agreement from stakeholders on the policy intent coming into place. Actually, the reporting requirement that's suggested I don't think is optimum. I think choosing halfway through a year isn't necessarily a great point in time in which to do that, but in any event—. And I'm happy to give—. I'm trying to be helpful, because I'll be asking Members to vote against the amendment, but I think there is something about how we do report and how the Assembly scrutinises the impact of the scheme. Now, there are choices that this committee can always make that don't require legislation for post-legislative scrutiny, and I would expect that, at some point, this or another committee would be interested in the impact of the policy choices being made, the impact on the risk pool and what that's meant for our stakeholders who are delivering the service. I don't think we get all of that from a Welsh Government report, necessarily, but I think it would probably benefit from a wider view.
We already provide, through the system, information, and there'll be newsletters going out on a quarterly basis to general practitioners themselves about the operation of the scheme. Now, there's a lessons learned programme about the risk pool that takes place in secondary care, that is now obviously being extended to cover primary care as well. I think that, even if not this amendment, there could be something about an agreement on how we will provide something about the technical operation of the scheme at the end of each year, say for the first couple of years while it beds in, and it would then be up to this committee or another in the Assembly as to whether it wanted to undertake a broader scrutiny exercise, to invite witnesses who are actually undertaking general practice, as well as some of the people you've heard from already in the passage of this Bill. But that would be a choice for the Assembly to make, I think.
So, I don't think that the amendment itself, looking at part of the GP indemnity landscape, would provide you with the whole picture, and it would be better to look at the changes made to indemnity and to look at the information we provide within the system to general practitioners, and to try to provide something useful about the financial operation, but then also some feedback about the operation from general practitioners themselves. Now, I'm happy to put that commitment on the record, but I don't think this amendment would enable us to do that and to properly capture all those things I think the Government could and should do and the commitments we've already made to general practitioners to provide information within the system. And, of course, a future Assembly committee could decide to undertake a wider scrutiny exercise in any event. So, I'd ask Members not to agree to the amendment to report on part of the scheme, but to allow us to come forward and to talk with spokespeople on all sides and this committee about how we provide a useful bit of reporting on the impact of the scheme at appropriate points in time, as opposed to halfway through the operation of a year.
Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Allaf i alw ar Angela Burns, felly, i ymateb i'r ddadl? Angela.
Thank you very much, Minister. May I call on Angela Burns, therefore, to reply to the debate? Angela.
Thank you, Chair, and thank you for your response to this, Minister. The 18-month window was actually chosen simply as a way of giving the Bill the opportunity to bed down and to see how it would work, because, as we know, very often, with the implementation of any Act, it does take time for it to start building up the critical mass and getting to a point where you can actually look back on it and make a judgment call about how well, or not, it's doing.
The second reason why we wanted to ask for a report—because I do take on board your comments about the fact that this is part of an overall package and an overall change to the way we provide insurances to the medical profession—is because of the uncertainty that still surrounds the take-up of the scheme by one of the larger players. Therefore, because of that, we felt that it merited going back and reviewing this in 18 months' time in order to ensure that it was working effectively for GPs. Ultimately, at the end of the day, this is all about providing GPs with the cover that they need in order to be able to carry out their jobs effectively, under due protection, with absolute support from the new players and support at the levels that they currently enjoy from existing medical defence unions. It's critical, because getting the indemnities correct for general practitioners will enable more of them to feel comfortable about staying within the business of general practice, it will encourage more people who are either part-time or have retired—it will give them more opportunities to be able to come back in and help to reinforce a workforce that is quite short-staffed at present.
Having said all that, I have taken on board the comments that you have made. I would be happy, if the committee is so happy, to not move this amendment at this time, but what I would like to do, Minister, is to have a brief discussion with you elsewhere to discuss what it is I'm trying to encapsulate to see if, when we get to Stage 3, there may be either something that can be added to the Bill or a commentary made on the public record during Stage 3 that will ensure that, at some point in the future, the Assembly will have the chance to review this piece of legislation.
We do not have a reviewing Chamber in this national Parliament of ours, and therefore it is important that the Assembly does have the opportunity to review new legislation, particularly legislation that has—for all the right reasons in this case—been moved forward at expedited speeds. And it would be unwise, I think, and us failing in our scrutiny duty, to not actually build into the process, somewhere along the line, the ability to look back and say, 'Is this right or not?' And we have the report from the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, we have our report, and both make the point that this has been expedited—as I say, for the right reasons, but nonetheless we have to make sure that, in order to achieve a good, we don't accidentally achieve something that is sub-optimal.
Do I have to say anything more formal about the movement?
Gwnaf i ofyn cwestiwn ffurfiol i chi nawr, Angela. Hynny yw, rwy'n cymryd o beth dŷch chi newydd ei ddweud eich bod chi'n awyddus i dynnu gwelliant 1 yn ôl a ddim ei symud i bleidlais.
I'll just ask a formal question now, Angela. That is, I take it from what you have just said that you wish to withdraw amendment 1 and not to proceed to a vote.
I'd like to withdraw amendment 1 and not proceed to a vote.
Diolch. Felly, i gadarnhau, mae gwelliant 1 wedi'i dynnu yn ôl, ac felly ni dderbyniwyd y gwelliant. A hefyd jest i gadarnhau bod y pwyllgor yn hapus efo hynna. Mae pawb yn hapus. Rhyfeddol.
Thank you. So, to confirm, amendment 1 has been withdrawn, and therefore the amendment is not agreed. And just to confirm that the committee is happy with that. Everyone is content. Excellent.
Tynnwyd gwelliant 1 yn ôl gyda chaniatâd y pwyllgor.
Amendment 1 withdrawn by leave of the committee.
Symud ymlaen, felly, i grŵp 2 a gwelliant 2. Mae grŵp 2 yn ymwneud â'r darpariaethau dod i rym. Yr unig welliant yn y grŵp yma ydy gwelliant 2, eto yn enw Angela Burns. Felly, galwaf ar Angela Burns i gynnig ei gwelliant a siarad amdano. Angela Burns.
We'll move on, therefore, to group 2 and amendment 2. Group 2 relates to the coming into force provisions. The only amendment in the group is amendment 2 in the name of Angela Burns. I call on Angela Burns to move and speak to her amendment. Angela Burns.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2 (Angela Burns).
Amendment 2 (Angela Burns) moved.
Thank you, Chair. Minister, this is a probing amendment, and, subject to assurances, I will not seek to move it. This amendment seeks to delay enactment of this Act until an arrangement is in place between the Welsh Government and the Medical Defence Union. I appreciate this will cause some discomfort, as I know that you are keen to have this Bill in place by April 2020. However, the Medical Defence Union is the biggest player in terms of medical insurance for GPs in Wales and having the Medical Defence Union on board is surely critical to the success of the indemnities Bill.
I am aware that Welsh Government is committed to progressing the existing liability scheme as swiftly as possible and I do accept that the other two medical defence organisations have already reached agreement with Welsh Government. I'm also aware there is a judicial review in play. However, I am very keen to ensure that all available courses of action are being taken in order to come to a mutually satisfactory arrangement with the Medical Defence Union.
Diolch yn fawr, Angela. Oes Aelodau eraill yn dymuno siarad? Nac oes. Felly, galwaf ar y Gweinidog i siarad. Gweinidog.
Thank you very much, Angela. Are there other Members who wish to speak? I see there are none. Therefore, I call on the Minister to speak.
I'll deal with a technical point about the amendment, but I'll deal with some of the points that I think that Angela has really actually set out trying to probe. If this amendment were passed either here or at Stage 3, it would essentially mean that there would be uncertainty as to when the law would apply because it would be contingent on another event, and it would name a commercial organisation within the Bill, which is unusual in terms of legislation, before the settled will, should it become that, of the Assembly could be enacted, and that's unusual. So, it's a fairly novel course of action. I think it's easier to understand technically why that typically doesn't happen. I can't think of another example where that has, certainly within the last 20 years here.
The second point is that what it would essentially do is it would mean that the scheme could not be implemented in any form unless and until there was agreement with the Medical Defence Union, and it would certainly shift bargaining power in terms of the ongoing conversations that are still taking place, and it would not be seen in a positive light by the organisation that has agreed a deal with us and England, and the Medical and Dental Defence Union of Scotland, which has agreed a deal in England and we think is close to agreement with us as well. I think that would insert significant uncertainty.
I think the other point that is worth making is that there's not a single stakeholder within the GP workforce that wants an amendment of this nature to be passed. Far from it. We've had some informal comment that says, 'I think this would be a very bad idea.' So the technical part of it I don't think stacks up. But I do appreciate that the Member is wanting to have some further reassurance that the Government is diligently and openly trying to reach agreement with the MDU, and we are. So what I said at Stage 1 still holds true: we remain ready to talk on the basis of full sharing of information. The information exchange that has taken place to date allows us to make some progress, but we're still in the hands of the MDU in terms of what they actually want to do.
You've mentioned the fact that there's a judicial review taking place. Until that oral hearing takes place I'm not sure that we'll get further progress, but we would like to see further progress made. But there are conversations taking place between officials and the organisation. It's certainly not the case that the Welsh Government has refused to talk or refused to listen, but we need to get to the point where we can actually go through figures—and in this, we're in the same position as the Government in England. So it's a matter of some frustration to the Governments, but more than that, I understand that there could be real concern within the general practice workforce, because people are affected on both sides of the border. I think it would be in everyone's interest should we get to the point where we could agree how we proceed, but I do not think that it would be sensible to pass this particular amendment and to essentially hand a veto over the system being introduced to one organisation.
We should, again, remind ourselves that this is the existing liability scheme, because these are for indemnity payments already made and practice already undertaken. We already have a future liabilities scheme, so this is about an honest appraisal of likely liabilities and assets to transfer to cover those as well with the state, either in the form of this place and Ministers here, or indeed across the border, taking on those liabilities afterwards.
So I certainly want us to reach agreement in the way that we have done with one organisation and are close to doing with another, and we remain ready to do so.
Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Galwaf ar Angela Burns i ymateb i'r ddadl. Angela.
Thank you very much, Minister. I call on Angela Burns to reply to the debate. Angela.
Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you for your response, Minister. If I could address the technical elements of your response first: you may or may not be right; all I know is that we ran it up the flag pole with our lawyers and they didn't seem to fall over with concern over the mentioning of a specific organisation. As I am not a lawyer myself, I can't make any commentary on that.
But as I said at the very beginning, this was simply a probing amendment. I absolutely understand and take your point about handing over the balance of power in any negotiation, and we are certainly not advocating that. What I wanted to be able to do was clear the air and ensure that general practitioners who may be reviewing these proceedings or following the outcome—and indeed not just general practitioners, but other players in this field—are very clear that actually this is an area where it would behove all parties to come to the table and reach an agreement for the benefit of general practitioners and our community services, because this is what this is all about. This is about making life easier, less complicated for a group of people who provide an enormous service for us, so I'm very grateful for your clarification.
I too would like to see all the defence organisations come to the table and accept that this is the way forward, and accept that this is in the best interests of the practitioners within the NHS. I just wanted to be sure that there was no grey area left where anybody thought that they might be able to have any less clarity on the cross-political will that we should do this on behalf of general practitioners and other medical professionals within the NHS. So, Chair, as I said at the very beginning, this was a probing amendment and I do not wish to move it.
Diolch yn fawr, Angela. Felly, i gadarnhau, dŷn ni wedi clywed geiriau Angela ei bod hi ddim eisiau symud y gwelliant, ei bod hi'n tynnu gwelliant 2 yn ôl. Oes yna unrhyw wrthynebiad gan unrhyw Aelod i wneud hynny? Dim gwrthwynebiad. Diolch yn fawr. Felly, tynnwyd gwelliant 2 yn ôl.
Thank you very much, Angela. Therefore, just to confirm, we have heard Angela's words, stating that she does not wish to move, or rather that she wishes to withdraw amendment 2. Is there any objection from any Member to doing so? I see that there is no objection. Thank you very much. Therefore, amendment 2 is withdrawn.
Tynnwyd gwelliant 2 yn ôl gyda chaniatâd y pwyllgor.
Amendment 2 withdrawn by leave of the committee.
Felly, mae gwelliant 2, fel y cyfryw, yn cwympo achos gwnaeth o ddim cael ei gyflwyno. Felly, mae hynny'n dod â'r trafodaethau i ben. A allaf ddiolch i'r Gweinidog a'i swyddogion am fod yn bresennol y bore yma? Ac, hefyd, byddwch yn derbyn y trawsgrifiad arferol o'r trafodaethau er mwyn i chi allu gwirio eu bod nhw'n ffeithiol gywir.
Daw hynny, felly, â thrafodaethau Cyfnod 2 i ben. Bydd Cyfnod 3 yn dechrau yfory, a bydd y dyddiadau perthnasol ar gyfer trafodion Cyfnod 3 yn cael eu cyhoeddi maes o law. Ond dyna ddiwedd yr eitem yna. Diolch yn fawr.
And, therefore, amendment 2 falls because it was not moved. That, therefore, brings the discussions to an end. And may I thank the Minister and his officials for their attendance this morning? You should receive the usual transcript of the meeting for you to check for factual accuracy.
And that completes Stage 2 proceedings. Stage 3 will begin tomorrow, and the relevant dates for Stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course. But that completes that item. Thank you very much.
Symud ymlaen nawr i eitem 3 a phapurau i'w nodi. Mi fydd Aelodau wedi darllen y llythyrau canlynol: llythyr gan y Bwrdd Cynghorau Iechyd Cymuned ynghylch y Bil Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol (Ansawdd ac Ymgysylltu) (Cymru); llythyr gan y Gymdeithas Gwarchod Meddygol ynghylch Bil y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Indemniadau) (Cymru), ac hefyd, llythyr gan Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg ynghylch y Bil Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol (Ansawdd ac Ymgysylltu) (Cymru). Pawb yn hapus i nodi'r rheini? Diolch yn fawr.
We'll move on now to item 3, papers to note. Members will have read the following letters: a letter from the Board of Community Health Councils regarding the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill; a letter from the Medical Protection Society regarding the National Health Service (Indemnities) (Wales) Bill, and also a letter from the Welsh Language Commissioner regarding the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill. Is everyone content to note those? Thank you very much.
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Felly, symud ymlaen i eitem 4, a chynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Pawb yn hapus? Diolch yn fawr. Mi awn ni felly i sesiwn breifat.
Moving on to item 4, and a motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Everyone content? Thank you very much. We will move to private session.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:57.
The public part of the meeting ended at 09:57.