Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Yn ôl i Chwilio

Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

10/10/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Caroline Jones AC
David Melding AC
Jane Hutt AC
Jenny Rathbone AC
Rhianon Passmore AC
Sian Gwenllian AC Cadeirydd Dros Dro y Pwyllgor
Temporary Committee Chair

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Dr Elin Royles Prifysgol Aberystwyth
Aberystwyth University
Dr Huw Lewis Prifysgol Aberystwyth
Aberystwyth University
Emyr Lewis Blake Morgan
Blake Morgan

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Adam Vaughan Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Gwyn Griffiths Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Steve George Clerc
Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.

The meeting began at 09:30.

1. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22 i ethol Cadeirydd dros dro
1. Motion under Standing Order 17.22 to elect temporary Chair

Diolch. Rwy'n datgan bod y cyfarfod hwn o'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu ar agor. Mae Cadeirydd y pwyllgor mewn cyfarfod o Bwyllgor y Rhanbarthau ym Mrwsel, ac wedi anfon ei hymddiheuriadau ar gyfer y cyfarfod.

Felly, yr eitem gyntaf o fusnes yw penodi Cadeirydd dros dro, o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22. Rwyf yn gwahodd enwebiadau gan aelodau'r pwyllgor.

Thank you very much. I declare that this meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee is now open. The Chair of the committee is in a meeting of the Committee of the Regions in Brussels, and has sent her apologies for today's meeting.

So, the first item of business is to nominate a temporary Chair, under Standing Order 17.22. I invite nominations from committee members.

Gwelaf nad oes unrhyw enwebiadau eraill, felly rwyf yn datgan bod Siân Gwenllian wedi'i hethol, ac rwyf yn ei gwahodd i gymryd y gadair.

I see that there are no other nominations, so I declare that Siân Gwenllian has been elected, and I invite her to take the chair.

Penodwyd Siân Gwenllian yn Gadeirydd dros dro.

Siân Gwenllian was appointed temporary Chair.

2. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
2. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi. Mae Bethan newydd anfon neges yn cofio at bawb o Frwsel, lle mae hi ym Mhwyllgor y Rhanbarthau. 

Felly, croeso i chi i gyd yma. Croeso i Caroline Jones fel aelod o'r pwyllgor, sydd yn ymuno efo ni am y tro cyntaf heddiw. Croeso cynnes atoch chi. A oes unrhyw ddatgan buddiant? Na. Ac wedyn ymddiheuriadau: wel, yn amlwg, mae Bethan yn ymddiheuro, ac mae Mick Antoniw hefyd—rydw i'n credu ei fod o hefyd ym Mhwyllgor y Rhanbarthau y bore yma. 

Thank you very much. Bethan has just sent a message sending her regards from Brussels, where she is at a meeting of the Committee of the Regions.

So, welcome to you all here. Welcome to Caroline Jones, who is now a member of the committee and who is joining us for the first time today. A very warm welcome to you, Caroline. Are there any declarations of interest? No. And now the apologies: well, Bethan apologises and Mick Antoniw—I think he, too, is attending the Committee of the Regions this morning.

3. Cefnogi a hybu’r Gymraeg: Ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi ac yn ehangach: Sesiwn dystiolaeth 3
3. Supporting and promoting the Welsh language: An inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 3

Felly, symudwn i eitem 3, ac mi fyddwn ni nawr yn cychwyn ar yr eitem sydd yn clywed tystiolaeth fel rhan o'r ymchwiliad cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg—yr ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi. Mi fyddwch chi'n cofio mai dyma ydy'r trydydd sesiwn dystiolaeth ar y pwnc yma, ac fe wnawn ni ddisgwyl i'r gwesteion ddod i mewn cyn inni symud ymlaen i gynnal y sesiwn.

So, we'll move on to item 3, and we will be starting an item where we will receive evidence as part of the inquiry into supporting and promoting the Welsh language—the inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context. Now, you'll remember that this is the third evidence session on this particular subject, and we will await our guests before we move on to hold this evidence session.

Dyna ni. Diolch yn fawr.

There we are. Thank you.

Croeso cynnes atom ni, y tri ohonoch chi: i Dr Elin Royles, cyfarwyddwr adran y Gymraeg Prifysgol Aberystwyth—

A very warm welcome to all three of you this morning. Welcome to Dr Elin Royles, department director of Welsh, Aberystwyth University—

A gaf i nodi bod fy nheitl i'n anghywir? Rydw i wedi rhoi gwybod i chi o flaen llaw, ond nid yw wedi cael ei newid. Felly, nid wyf i'n bennaeth ar adran y Gymraeg ym Mhrifysgol Aberystwyth. Diolch.

May I note that my title is incorrect? I have let you know ahead of time, but it hasn't been changed. So, I'm not department director of Welsh at Aberystwyth University. Thank you.

Iawn. Diolch am hynny. Dr Huw Lewis, darlithydd gwleidyddiaeth ryngwladol, Prifysgol Aberystwyth—mae hynny'n gywir, gobeithio. Ac Emyr Lewis, partner ac uwch-bartner rhanbarthol Cymru yn Blake Morgan, ond yn bwysicach, efallai, heddiw yn y rôl o fod wedi gwneud cryn waith ar ddeddfwriaeth Cymru yn ymwneud â'r Gymraeg. Felly, croeso cynnes i chi'ch tri.

Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, diben y sesiwn yma ydy edrych ar y cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi o gwmpas yr iaith Gymraeg, ond yn benodol, efallai, i fod yn craffu ar weithrediad Mesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011. Mi wnawn ni gychwyn gydag ychydig o gwestiynau ynghylch hynny. Mi fydd aelodau eraill y pwyllgor yn cyfrannu hefyd, ond jest i ddechrau, felly: eich sylwadau cychwynnol chi, os gwelwch yn dda, ynghylch sut mae'r Mesur wedi cael ei ddatblygu a sut mae'r Mesur yn welliant ar Ddeddf 1993, ac efallai agweddau lle nad ydy o ddim wedi datblygu a gwella sefyllfa'r Gymraeg. Nid ydw i'n gwybod pwy sydd am ddechrau—Emyr?

Thank you for letting us know. Also joining us is Dr Huw Lewis, lecturer in international politics, Aberystwyth University—that's correct, I hope. And also Emyr Lewis, partner and regional senior partner in Wales for Blake Morgan, but more importantly, perhaps, present today in the role of having done a great deal of work on legislation in Wales with regard to the Welsh language. So, a very warm welcome to you three.

As you'll know, the purpose of this session is to consider the legislative and policy context with regard to the Welsh language, but specifically, perhaps, to be scrutinising the implementation of the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. We'll start with a few questions with regard to that Measure. Other members of the committee will be contributing as well, but just to start, therefore: what are your initial views on how the Measure has been developed and how the Measure is an improvement on the 1993 Act? Are there any aspects where it hasn't developed and improved the situation of the Welsh language? I don't know who wants to start—Emyr?

09:35

O'r gorau. Wel, rydw i'n credu mai prif rinwedd Mesur 2011 ydy'r ffaith mai dyma ni, y Cymry, am y tro cyntaf, yn cymryd meddiant o'r iaith Gymraeg fel rhywbeth sydd yn greiddiol yn gyfansoddiadol i Gymru, ac yn ceisio gwneud rhywbeth er hynny. Hynny yw, nid briwsion oddi ar fwrdd rhywun arall oedden nhw, ond ein gwledd ein hunain. Rydw i'n credu bod y datganiad o statws swyddogol i'r Gymraeg yn beth hanesyddol bwysig er mwyn setlo cwestiynau yn ymwneud â natur israddol y Gymraeg a'i siaradwyr yn hanesyddol yng Nghymru. Dyna'r peth pwysicaf, yn fy marn i, ynglŷn â'r Mesur.

Wedyn, rydym ni'n edrych ar brif ffrwd arall y Mesur, sydd yn ymwneud â rheoleiddio defnydd o'r Gymraeg yn y sffêr gyhoeddus—efallai mai dyna'r ffordd orau o ddisgrifio hyn. Mae yna welliannau ac mae yna bethau a fyddai wedi medru bod yn well. Roedd yn weddol eglur bod y gyfundrefn dan Ddeddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993, o ran rheoleiddio defnydd o'r Gymraeg, wedi cael tipyn o effaith, ond mi oedd yn dechrau mynd yn hen ac yn stêl, ac mi oedd pobl yn dechrau peidio â'i chymryd o ddifri. Mi oedd angen rhywbeth a oedd yn rhoi mwy o orfodaeth, yn arbennig oddi mewn i'r sector cyhoeddus, ar sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn cael ei phriod le, o ran statws, a hefyd bod siaradwyr y Gymraeg yn medru ei defnyddio hi i'r graddau helaethaf yr oedden nhw'n medru. Dyna oedd y syniad y tu cefn i safonau'r Gymraeg a holl fframwaith, adeiladwaith, y Mesur.

Prif wendid y fframwaith hwnnw, yn fy marn i, oedd, ac mae'n parhau i fod, y cymhlethdod a'r gorfanylder. Mae peth o hyn yn deillio, wrth gwrs, o'r ffaith nad oedd llechen lân gan y Cynulliad wrth ddeddfu. Roedd dwylo'r Cynulliad, os caf i gymysgu fy nelweddau, wedi'u clymu can y Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol a oedd yn diffinio ac yn rhwystro rhyddid y Cynulliad i ddeddfu yn y maes yma. Mae peth o'r cymhlethdod sydd yn y Mesur yn deillio o'r meicroreoli gan San Steffan a oedd i'w weld yn yr offeryn statudol hwnnw a oedd yn rhoi'r grym i'r Cynulliad ddeddfu.

Wrth gwrs, erbyn hyn, nid ydy'r rhwystrau yna ddim yno i'r fath raddau, ond efallai bod hynny'n rhywbeth i'w drafod yn nes ymlaen. Ond, yn sicr, mae'r cymhlethdod yna, ac mi arweiniodd hyn at ddau beth, yn fy marn i. Y peth cyntaf yr arweiniodd e ato oedd oedi cyfnod hir cyn bod y trefniadau rheoleiddiol yn medru dod i rym, oherwydd bod yna gymaint o waith a oedd angen ei wneud gan swyddfa'r comisiynydd er mwyn gosod y sylfeini ar gyfer y safonau, a hefyd gan Weinidogion Cymru yn y Llywodraeth. Mi gymerodd hynny amser maith, ac mi gafwyd cyfnod anesmwyth iawn yn y canol lle'r oedd neb yn cymryd sylw o'r cynlluniau iaith, ond, ar y llaw arall, roedd y drefn newydd heb eto ddod i fodolaeth.

Yr ail effaith a gafodd y cymhlethdod yma oedd anhawster delio'n ymarferol â'r safonau o ddydd i ddydd, o ran y defnyddiwr, a hefyd, a bod yn deg, rydw i'n credu, o ran y rhai hynny y mae disgwyl iddyn nhw gydymffurfio â'r safonau, ond yn bennaf oll, hefyd, swyddfa'r comisiynydd. Rydw i'n credu bod pobl wedi bod yn rhy barod i feio'r comisiynydd a'i swyddfa ynglŷn â'r ffordd y mae pethau wedi mynd yn fiwrocrataidd, pan mae hynny wedi'i weu i mewn i'r modd y mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yma wedi'i drafftio. Felly, dyna'n fras ydy'r ffordd yr ydw i'n gweld pethau.

Okay. Well, I think the main merit of the 2011 Measure is the fact that here we see Wales, for the first time, taking ownership of the Welsh language as something that is at the heart of the Welsh constitution, and seeking to do something in relation to that. That is, it's not the crumbs off someone else's table—it's our own legislation. I do think that the declaration of official status for the Welsh language is historically important in order to settle questions in relation to the status of the Welsh language and the status of Welsh speakers in Wales. That's the important thing, in my view, about the Measure.

Then, we look at the other main element of the Measure, which relates to the regulation of the use of the Welsh language in the public sphere—perhaps that's the best way of describing this. There have been improvements and there are areas where performance could have been better. It was quite clear that the regime under the Welsh Language Act 1993, in terms of the regulation of the use of the Welsh language, had had a fair impact, but it was starting to get stale and people were starting not to take it seriously. We did need something that provided greater enforcement, particularly within the public sector, in terms of ensuring that the Welsh language was given its proper place in terms of status, but also that Welsh speakers could use it to the widest possible extent. That was the idea underpinning the Welsh language standards and the whole framework, or structure, of the Measure.

The main weakness of that framework, in my view, was, and continues to be, its complexity and too much detail. Much of this emerged, of course, from the fact that the Assembly didn't start with a clean slate in legislating. The hands of the Assembly, if I can mix my metaphors, were tied by the legislative competence Order that defined and limited the freedom of the Assembly to legislate in this area. Some of the complexity contained within the Measure emerges from that micromanagement from Westminster, which could be identified in that statutory instrument that gave power to the Assembly to legislate.

Of course, those barriers are no longer there to such an extent, and that's an issue for discussion later on. But, certainly, that complexity remains, and that led to two things, in my view. The first thing was a long period of delay before the regulatory arrangements could come into force, because there was so much work that needed to be done by the commissioner's office in order to put the foundation in place for standards, and also by Welsh Ministers within Government. That took a great deal of time, and there was a period of great disquiet in the interim when nobody was taking any notice of the language schemes, but, on the other hand, the new regime had yet to come into force.

The second impact that this had was a difficulty in dealing in practical terms with standards on a day-to-day basis, in terms of the service users, and also, to be fair, in terms of those who are expected to comply with standards, but most of all, as well, the office of the commissioner. I think people have been too willing to blame the commissioner and her office for the way in which things have become bureaucratic, when that is inherent in the way in which this legislation has been drafted. So, that, broadly speaking, is how I see things.

A ydych chi'ch dau yn gweld pwysigrwydd ymhellach na hynny? Beth am bwysigrwydd seicolegol yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn sgil cyflwyno'r ddeddfwriaeth newydd?

Do you two see the importance of this further than that? What about the psychological importance of the effects of the introduction of this new legislation?

09:40

Os ydych chi'n cofio nôl i gyfnod y trafod yn arwain at basio'r Mesur—a nôl hyd yn oed cyn hynny, os leiciwch chi, i'r cyfnod yn arwain i fyny at basio mesur 1993—un o'r trafodaethau mawr ynghylch y cymal yna o statws swyddogol oedd beth fyddai ei effaith ymarferol ef. Byddwn i'n cytuno â'r hyn yr oedd Emyr yn ei ddweud yn gynharach o ran taw un o'r pethau mwyaf arwyddocaol am y Mesur yn 2011 oedd bod e'n rhoi diwedd ar, wel, y degawdau yna o drafod, mewn gwirionedd, ynglŷn â'r angen i ddatgan yn glir bod y Gymraeg yn meddu ar statws swyddogol yng Nghymru, a bod i hynny oblygiadau cyfreithiol ymarferol clir, ond ei fod e hefyd yn arwyddocaol iawn o safbwynt cymdeithasol, seicolegol. Mae'r gallu i wneud y cysylltiad yna weithiau yn gallu bod yn anodd, ond rydw i'n meddwl ei fod e'n rhesymol i dybio bod Mesur sydd yn cael ei basio gan Senedd genedlaethol yn datgan bod yr iaith yn iaith swyddogol yn garreg filltir bwysig iawn.

I fynd nôl, efallai, i rai o'r pwyntiau yr oedd Emyr yn eu gwneud yn ei ateb yn gynharach, byddwn i'n cytuno hefyd, rydw i'n meddwl, fod e'n anodd gwadu bod y profiad yn dilyn pasio'r Mesur wedi bod yn un anodd, a bod yna drafod wedi bod ynglŷn â rhwystredigaethau neu natur glogyrnaidd y system o osod safonau ac wedyn eu gweithredu nhw. Mae yna bobl sy'n mynd i fod mewn llawer gwell sefyllfa i drafod y manylder yna na fi'n bersonol, ond byddwn i yn cytuno, rwy'n credu, ag ergyd gyffredinol y pwynt yr oedd Emyr yn ei wneud, sef ei bod hi'n rhy hawdd pwyntio bys at sefydliad y comisiynydd am y materion yna. Rydw i'n meddwl efallai bod hynny yn rhywbeth y gallwn ni fynd mewn iddo i'w drafod ymhellach maes o law—sef bod angen mwy o eglurder ar hyd a lled swyddogaethau'r comisiynydd cyn ein bod ni'n gallu dod i ddyfarniad o'r fath.       

If you remember back to the period before the Measure was passed—and, even before that, the period running up to the passage of the 1993 Act—one of the major debates about the official status clause was what the practical implications would be. I agree with what Emyr said earlier, that one of the most significant elements of the Measure in 2011 is that it concluded those decades of discussions about the need to declare clearly that the Welsh language has official status in Wales, and that had legal implications and clear practical implications, but it was also significant in terms of social, psychological aspects. The ability to make that link sometimes is difficult, but I think it's reasonable to believe that a Measure that's passed by a national Parliament stating that the Welsh language has official status is an important milestone.

But to go back to some of the points that Emyr made in his earlier answer, I would agree as well that it's difficult to deny that the experience following the passage of the Measure has been a difficult one. There's been debate about frustrations or the cumbersome nature of the system of imposing standards and then implementing them. There are people who are going to be in a far better situation to discuss the detail than I am personally, but I agree with the general thrust of the statement that Emyr made, namely that it's too easy to point a finger at the office of the commissioner on those issues. This is perhaps something that we could discuss further, in due course, that we need greater clarity on the breadth of the functions of the commissioner before we can make a judgment of that kind. 

Efallai i ychwanegu rhai pwyntiau at hynny, mae yna ymdrech wedi bod i greu cysondeb ar draws cynlluniau iaith o dan drefniadau 1993, ond, yn ymarferol, dylanwadau gwleidyddol ac unigolion wedi chwarae mwy o rôl yn ystod y cyfnod yna o weithredu'r Ddeddf. Felly, beth mae'r Mesur wedi ein galluogi ni i'w wneud ydy cael mwy o gysondeb ar draws sefydliadau yn y math o drefniadau sydd yna mewn lle. Efallai byddai llawer yn cwestiynu bod yna fylchau yn parhau o ran nad ydy'r safonau yn cwmpasu'r sector preifat. Rydych chi eisoes yn y pwyllgor yma wedi cael pobl yn siarad am y cyfleustodau, ac yn y blaen, fel sector penodol, ac mae hynny yn rhwystredig, yn enwedig pan ydych chi'n gweld camau yn ôl mewn sector fel yna.

Efallai'r cwestiwn arall ydy'r mater, do, fe wnaethpwyd y Gymraeg yn iaith swyddogol, ond i ba raddau mae'r broses o safonau wedi creu hawliau. Rydw i'n meddwl yn ein sector ni, yn y maes addysg uwch, mae yna ymgyrch eithaf cryf ar hyn o bryd i gydnabod hawliau penodol i fyfyrwyr, ac mae hynny, rydw i'n meddwl, yn rhoi llawer o eglurder iddyn nhw, fel myfyrwyr sy'n dymuno astudio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac yn y blaen, beth y gallan nhw ei ddisgwyl gennym ni fel sefydliad. Rydw i'n derbyn bod yna heriau o amgylch darparu hawliau cyffredinol sylfaenol i siaradwyr Cymraeg, ac rydw i'n siŵr bod yna bobl yma sydd â mwy o arbenigedd i allu manylu ar hynny, ond rydw i'n meddwl bod, efallai, yna fwlch yna a gallai'r math yna o agenda wedi mynd yn bellach.

If I could just add a few points to that, there has been an effort to have consistency across language schemes under the 1993 legislation but, on a practical level, political influences and individuals have played more of a role in that period of the implementation of the Act. And what the Measure has enabled us to do is to have greater consistency across institutions in terms of the arrangements in place. Some would perhaps suggest that there are gaps remaining in that the standards don't extend to the private sector. You've already had people at this committee talking about the utilities, and so on and so forth, and that can be frustrating, particularly when you see retrograde steps in sectors such as that.

Another issue is, yes, the Welsh language was made an official language, but to what extent has the standards process actually created rights? In our sector, in higher education, there's quite a strong campaign at the moment to recognise specific rights that students have, and I think that provides them with a great deal of clarity, as students who wish to study through the medium of Welsh, as to what they can expect from us as an institution. I do accept that there are challenges around providing basic fundamental rights to Welsh speakers, and I'm sure there are people here with greater expertise to go into detail on that, but I do think that perhaps there is a gap and that that kind of agenda could perhaps have gone further.    

Mae'r pwyslais wedi bod, wrth gwrs, felly, ar reoleiddio a deddfwriaeth, onid yw? A ydy hwnnw yn asesiad teg o'r cyfnod ers 2011, ac ai dyna briod waith y Cynulliad yma—yr ochr deddfwriaethol—ynteu a oes yna waith pellach? Yn amlwg, mae yna waith pellach sydd angen ei wneud o ran yr economi ac addysg, ac yn y blaen, ond a ydy'r holl drafod am y Mesur—a dyma ni eto yn trafod y Mesur a deddfwriaeth—? A ydy hynny yn asesiad teg, ynteu a ydw i'n camddehongli'r sefyllfa? 

The emphasis has, of course, been on regulation and legislation, hasn't it? Is that a fair assessment of the period since 2011, and is that the appropriate work of the Assembly—the legislative side of things—or should there be further work done? Clearly, there needs to be further work done in terms of the economy and education, and so on, but is the whole debate about the Measure—and here we are again today, discussing the Measure and legislation—? Is that a fair assessment, that we've been focusing too much on regulation, or am I misinterpreting the situation? 

Wrth ateb y cwestiwn yna, rwy'n meddwl y byddai'n ddefnyddiol i'r pwyllgor yn yr ymchwiliad yma, efallai, cyn mynd i drafod teclynnau polisi penodol—boed yn ddeddfwriaeth, yn grantiau neu'n rhaglenni polisi a strategaethau—gymryd cam nôl a cheisio meddwl ychydig am beth yw'r amcanion sydd gennym ni o ran polisi iaith yng Nghymru. Hwn yw un o'r pwyntiau yr oedd Elin a fi yn ceisio eu cyfleu ar ddechrau'r papur roeddem ni wedi ei gyflwyno fel tystiolaeth i'r ymgynghoriad.

Os ydym ni'n meddwl am y gwahanol fathau o amcanion sydd wedi bod yn sail i'r ymyrraethau polisi iaith sydd wedi bod gennym ni mewn perthynas â'r Gymraeg dros y degawdau diwethaf, mae gennych chi, ar y naill law, yr ystyriaeth bod gennym ni garfan reit sylweddol o bobl yng Nghymru sy'n siarad Cymraeg fel iaith ddydd i ddydd, a bod ystyriaethau yn ymwneud â chydraddoldeb civic a chyfiawnder civic yn awgrymu bod angen darparu cyfleoedd i'r bobl yma ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg wrth ymwneud â gwasanaethau sylfaenol. So, mae'r dreifar yna o gyfiawnder a chydraddoldeb yn ystyriaeth bwysig i bolisi iaith. Ond, ar yr un pryd, mae ein trafodaethau ni ynglŷn â'r Gymraeg hefyd yn cwmpasu ystyriaeth ehangach, sef nid ydym ni jest yn meddwl am y sawl sy'n siarad Cymraeg heddiw a darparu cyfleoedd iddyn nhw; mae ein trafodaeth ni hefyd yn cwmpasu'r syniad yma o ddyfodol yr iaith, ac, ynghlwm â hwnnw wedyn, y dyhead i weld mwy o bobl sy'n gallu siarad yr iaith—so, creu mwy o siaradwyr—ond hefyd annog y siaradwyr hynny i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg, nid jest mewn peuoedd swyddogol, ond ar draws eu bywyd dydd i ddydd.

So, mae'r ddau lwybr yma neu'r ddwy echel yma sydd wedi bod yn sail i'r drafodaeth ynglŷn â pholisi iaith yng Nghymru, yn benodol o ran y Gymraeg, ac wedyn mae'n fater o benderfynu beth yw'r offerynnau polisi sy'n caniatáu inni symud ar draws y ddau lwybr yna, achos nid ydyn nhw'n union yr un peth. Fe allech chi gael polisi iaith, yn ddigon rhesymol, a fyddai jest yn canolbwyntio ar yr elfen yna o gydraddoldeb a chyfleoedd swyddogol i'w defnyddio. Fe gewch chi achosion mewn rhannau eraill o'r byd lle mai dyna yw ffocws polisi mewn perthynas ag iaith leiafrifol. So wedyn y cwestiwn o ran rôl deddfwriaeth yw: wel, a ydy hi'n ein helpu ni mewn perthynas ag un o'r ddwy ystyriaeth yna? Os ydych chi'n cymryd y cyntaf, y syniad o gydraddoldeb o ran defnyddio'r iaith mewn peuoedd swyddogol—ydy, mae deddfwriaeth yn sicr yn declyn pwysig o ran hynny. Rydym ni wedi bod trwy ddegawdau o drafod a oes modd annog sefydliadau i wneud hynny ac roedd Deddf 1993, fel petai, yn dderbyniad, na, fod angen mwy na hynny—mae angen deddfwriaeth. Ac wedyn roedd Mesur 2011 yn gam pellach yn hynny ac yn creu, os liciwch chi, system rheoleiddio ar sefydliadau oedd yn fwy cyhyrog. 

Y drafodaeth ers hynny, fel yr oeddech chi'n ei ddweud, yw: i ba raddau y mae deddfwriaeth yn ein helpu ni mewn perthynas â'r ystyriaeth ehangach yna? Mae yna rhai sydd yn hoffi creu'r rhaniad eithaf taclus yma rhwng rheoleiddio a hybu. Mae'r term 'hybu' yna yn un lletchwith, achos fe allwch chi ei ddefnyddio fe mewn perthynas â rhai o'r gweithgareddau sy'n gysylltiedig ag annog sefydliadau i gwrdd â'u dyletswyddau—dyletswyddau statudol—ond wedyn mae e hefyd yn ymwneud â hybu cyrff sydd efallai ddim o dan y ddeddfwriaeth, neu rannu arferion da a hybu ymddygiad ac agweddau cadarnhaol ymhlith y staff. Ond mae hynny'n wahanol efallai i'r math o waith sy'n ymwneud â chynlluniau iaith ymhlith unigolion a theuluoedd yn eu bywyd dydd i ddydd.

Y cwestiwn wedyn yw: beth yw'r berthynas rhwng deddfwriaeth a'r cynllunio iaith ehangach yna? Mae yna berthynas, ond efallai mwy anuniongyrchol yw rôl deddfwriaeth yn yr ystyriaethau ehangach yna o'r iaith y mae rhywun yn ei defnyddio gyda'i ffrindiau a'r iaith mae rhywun yn ei defnyddio gyda'r teulu o ddydd i ddydd. Ond rwy'n credu bod eisiau dechrau trwy fynd nôl i gofio bod y ddwy echel yma i'n polisi hiaith ni, a'n bod—a gwnaf i orffen gyda'r pwynt yma—ni methu â phwyso a mesur deddfwriaeth jest yn ôl—ac mae yna duedd i wneud hyn—i ba raddau y mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yn annog defnydd iaith cymdeithasol; mae yna elfen arall i'w rôl hi hefyd.

I think, in responding to that question, I would have thought it would be useful for the committee during this inquiry, perhaps before you move to discuss particular policy instruments—be they legislation, grants, or strategies and policy programmes—to take a step back and to think, 'Well, what are the objectives that we have in terms of language policy in Wales?' This is one of the points that Elin and I were trying to convey at the beginning of the paper that we submitted as evidence to the consultation.

If we think about the various objectives that have been the foundation of language strategies and policies in relation to the Welsh language over the past few decades, on the one hand, you have the consideration that we have a significant cohort of people in Wales who speak Welsh as their day-to-day language, and that considerations relating to civic equality and civic justice mean that we need to provide opportunities for these people to use the Welsh language in their relations with public services. So, there's that driver of justice and equality for language policy. But, simultaneously, our discussions on the Welsh language also take in a broader remit, namely that we're not just thinking about those who speak Welsh today and providing opportunities to them; our discussions should also focus on the future of the language, and, in relation to that, the aspiration to see more people being able to speak the language—so creating Welsh speakers—but also encouraging those speakers to use the Welsh language, not just in official domains, but in their day-to-day lives. 

So, both those routes or axes have been the basis of discussion of language policy in Wales, specifically in relation to the Welsh language, and then it's a matter of deciding what are the policy instruments that allow us to move across those two routes, because they're not exactly the same. So, you could have a language policy that could quite reasonably focus on that element of equality and official opportunities to use the language. You will have areas of the world where that is the policy focus in relation to minority languages. So then the question in terms of the role of legislation is: well, does it help us in relation to one of those two considerations? If you take the first, this idea of equality in using the language in official domains—yes, legislation is an important tool. We've been through decades of discussing whether we can encourage institutions to do that and the 1993 Act was an acceptance, if you like, that, no we needed more than that—we needed legislation. And then the 2011 Measure was a further step down that route and created a regulatory system that was more robust. 

Now, the discussion since then, as you said, is: to what extent does legislation help us in relation to that broader consideration? There are some who want to create this neat separation between regulation and promotion. The term 'promotion' can be awkward, because you can use it in relation to some of the activities related to encouraging institutions to meet the requirements placed upon them—statutory requirements—but it also relates to encouraging bodies that perhaps aren't captured in the legislation, or sharing good practice and promoting positive attitudes among the staff. But that is perhaps different to the kind of work that relates to language planning among individuals and families in their day-to-day interactions. 

The question then is: what's the relationship between legislation and broader language planning? There is a relationship, but perhaps the role of legislation is more indirect in those broader considerations of the language that one uses with one's friends or one's family on a day-to-day basis. But I think we need to start by going back and remembering that you do have these two aspects of language policies—I will finish with this point—and that we can't weigh up legislation—and there's a tendency to do that—just according to what extent the legislation encourages the social use of language; there's another aspect to its role too.

09:45

Iawn, diolch yn fawr iawn. Rydw i am symud at Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you very much. We'll move now to Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Chair. Apologies for being late. In regard, then, to the responsibility for promotion and facilitation and the clarity or otherwise in the legislative framework, the Centre for Welsh Politics and Society, in their evidence, suggested that there wasn't enough clarity or agreement around the concept of promotion and regulation—so, in regard to the soft touch of promotion and the more intensive regulation side, could you outline for me how you would see that split, please?

Rydw i'n meddwl beth yr ydym ni'n ei weld yn ymarferol, a beth rydych chi wedi'i weld yn y dystiolaeth gan y comisiynydd, ydy bod yna rôl ddeuol wedi bod o fewn i swyddogaeth y comisiynydd yn yr ystyr mai nhw ydy'r rheoleiddiwr, ond mae yna hefyd rolau o fewn y Mesur sy'n rhoi grymoedd iddyn nhw wneud gwaith hybu ac hwyluso. Mae llawer o'r rheini wedi ymwneud â'r sector breifat neu'r trydydd sector, sydd ddim yn dod o dan y gyfundrefn safonau. Ac wrth gwrs, fel y mae Huw newydd awgrymu, wrth osod rheoliadau ar gyrff, mae'r cyrff yna, maes o law, wrth iddyn nhw ddarparu gwasanaethau ac wrth iddyn nhw ddarparu'r cyfleon i'r bobl sy'n siarad Cymraeg wneud mwy o ddefnydd o'r Gymraeg, hefyd yn gwneud gwaith hybu a hwyluso ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae yna—. Y risg sydd yna yn ymarferol—. Rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni'n gallu gweld bod ymdrechion clodwiw wedi bod i wneud gwaith hybu a hwyluso gan y comisiynydd. Yn enwedig, mae yna lot o fentrau hynod o ddiddorol wedi cael eu gwneud—er enghraifft, chwaraeon a sut mae modd annog mwy o ddarpariaeth chwaraeon trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae yna lot o waith arbennig o dda wedi cael ei wneud, ond, yn ymarferol, ein barn ni oedd—o ran eglurder ac i osgoi amwysedd, i ba raddau y byddai'n fwy priodol gwahaniaethu ychydig mwy rhwng rolau hybu a rheoleiddio, a bod llai o hynny yn rhan o waith swyddfa'r comisiynydd?

Rydym ni hefyd yn pwysleisio’r ystod o gyrff sydd yn ymwneud â gwaith hybu a hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg. Mewn ffordd, mae angen canolbwyntio ar swyddogaeth y Llywodraeth yn y maes yna. Nid wyf yn meddwl ein bod ni'n cytuno nad oes modd i Lywodraeth fod yn beiriant sy'n gyrru'r broses o hyrwyddo a hybu yn effeithiol. Rydw i'n meddwl beth rydym ni'n gweld ydy bod modd gwneud llawer mwy o hynny—mae yna nifer o resymau ynghylch hynny, a gallem ni ymhelaethu, ond yn arbennig oherwydd rôl Llywodraeth mewn darparu cyllid a'r gallu felly i gael gafael llawer cryfach ar gyrff i gyfeirio gweithgaredd ac i gydlynu'n fwy effeithiol rhwng y math o weithgareddau hybu sy'n digwydd. Achos mae cymaint o gyrff yn ymwneud â hybu'r Gymraeg, ond hyd yma nid yw'n eglur bod llawer o waith cydlynu'n digwydd rhyngddyn nhw.

I think what we see practically, and what you've seen in the evidence from the commissioner, is that there has been a dual role within the function of the commissioner in the sense that they're the regulator, but there are also roles within the Measure that give them the power to do that promotion and facilitation work. A lot of that has been involved with the private sector or the third sector, rather than what comes under the standards regime. And, as Huw has just suggested, in imposing regulations on bodies, those bodies, in due course, as they provide services and as they provide the opportunities for people who speak Welsh to make greater use of the Welsh language, also do promotion work and so on. But the risk that there is then in practical terms is—. We can see that there have been excellent attempts to do that promotional work by the commissioner. There are some extremely interesting initiatives, such as sport and how we can encourage greater provision of sport through the medium of Welsh. Some excellent work has been done, but, practically speaking, our opinion was—in terms of clarity and to avoid ambiguity, to what extent would it be appropriate to differentiate between the promotional roles and the regulatory roles, and that there should be less of that as part of the commissioner's work?

We also emphasise the range of bodies involved with promotional work with regard to the Welsh language. In a way, we need to focus on the Government function in that area. I don't think we agree that there's no means for the Government to be a mechanism for promoting and facilitating effectively. I think what we see is that much more of that could be done—and there are a number of reasons for that, and we could expand on those, but particularly because of the role of the Government in providing finance and the ability then to get a much firmer grip on bodies to direct activity and to co-ordinate more effectively between the kind of promotional activities that happen. Because there are so many bodies involved in promoting the Welsh language, but to date it's not clear that there's been a great deal of co-ordination between them.

09:50

Okay, so do you feel then that there is—? Whose responsibility is it going to be? Is it a dual responsibility from Welsh Government, or is that, in terms of that promotional work, potentially being sidelined from the, in a sense, delivery bodies? Whose job do you feel that promotional work is?

Rydw i'n meddwl ei bod yn eithaf eglur taw rôl y Llywodraeth ydy hynny'n bennaf, ond, o dan y trefniadau presennol, mae elfennau o hynny wedi bod oddi fewn i waith y comisiynydd hefyd. Ond, nid yw'r Ddeddf mewn unrhyw ffordd yn golygu bod y cyfrifoldeb ar y comisiynydd i fod yn bennaf gyfrifol am hybu'r iaith.

I think it's quite clear that it's the role of the Government mainly, but, under the current arrangements, there have been elements of that that have been part of the commissioner's remit as well. But the legislation doesn't mean that the responsibility is on the commissioner to be mainly responsible for promoting the Welsh language.

Rydw i'n credu ei bod hi'n ddiddorol i edrych nôl ar y dystiolaeth a gafodd y pwyllgor yma gan y cyn-Weinidog Alun Ffred Jones, a oedd yn frwd iawn dros y syniad mai cyfrifoldeb y Llywodraeth dylai fod hybu a hyrwyddo a hwyluso a galluogi ac ati. Pan basiwyd y Mesur yn y lle cyntaf—rydw i'n hoffi dyfynnu Joni Mitchell ar y pwynt yma

I think it's interesting to look back at the evidence that this committee received from the former Minister Alun Ffred Jones, who was very enthusiastically in support of the idea that it's the responsibility of Government to promote and facilitate the use of the language. When the Measure was passed initially—I like to quote Joni Mitchell on this point:

'Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone.'

Rydw i'n credu bod hynny'n wir am swyddogaethau hyrwyddo a hwyluso Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg. Mi oedd Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, beth bynnag fo'i wendidau fel rheoleiddiwr, yn llwyddiannus iawn drwy fod yn ysgafn droed ac yn strategol yn y modd yr oedd yn hybu ac yn hwyluso defnydd o'r Gymraeg ac ati. Nid yw Llywodraethau felly. Nid ydyn nhw'n ysgafn droed a wastad yn strategol. Mae'r ffordd y mae arian yn cael ei wario yn destun ymrafael mewnol rhwng Gweinidogion ac adrannau a'i gilydd. Nid oes adran y Gymraeg fel y cyfryw, felly mae'r gwariant ar y Gymraeg yn mynd i fod yn rhyw froc môr yn y dymestl fawr yma sy'n ymwneud ag ariannu. Felly, oni bai bod gennych chi rôl swyddogaeth hybu a hyrwyddo sydd yn cyd-fynd â dyletswyddau cadarn ar Weinidogion Cymru i wneud hynny, ac nid ydyn nhw ar hyn o bryd yn gadarn, yna fuaswn i'n dweud fedrwch chi ddim gadael y rôl yma yn nwylo'r Llywodraeth. 

Rydw i'n credu bod tystiolaeth Alun Ffred—roedd yn ardderchog, ei dystiolaeth; roedd yn blaen iawn ynglŷn ag hynny, bod angen symud ymlaen o hynny. Ac mae'r un math o drafodaeth yn digwydd mewn meysydd eraill, er enghraifft, datblygu economaidd. Rydych chi'n gwybod bod y WDA wedi mynd—a ddylem ni fod yn edrych ar ryw fath o gorff ysgafn droed arall sy'n cymryd lle'r WDA ym maes datblygu economaidd? Yr un math o ddadl yw hi.

Felly, i ddod nôl at eich cwestiwn chi, wrth gwrs, yn y pen draw, y Llywodraeth sydd yn dal y cyllid ac mae yna gyfrifoldebau fan hyn. Ond, er mwyn galluogi'r peth i ddigwydd yn dda, mae angen asiantaeth neu ryw fath o gorff lled braich oddi wrth y Llywodraeth sydd yn gwneud hynny. Mae'r Llywodraeth wedi ceisio gwneud hynny drwy wahanol asiantaethau—mae wedi sefydlu Cymraeg i Oedolion—drwy bobl fel yr Urdd, Mudiad Meithrin. Y cwestiwn mawr yw: a ydych chi yn rhoi yr holl gyfrifoldeb—a ydych chi’n ail-greu, i bob pwrpas, Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, efo ychydig bach mwy o bwerau rheoleiddio, sef yr hyn sydd yn ymddangos i mi sydd yn yr arfaeth ym Mhapur Gwyn y Llywodraeth?

I think that's true about the promotional functions of the Welsh Language Board. Whatever its weaknesses as a regulator, the Welsh Language Board was very successful in being very light footed and strategic in the way that it promoted and facilitated the use of the Welsh language. Governments aren't like that. They're not fleet footed and strategic. The way that funds are spent is the subject of internal grappling between Ministers and their departments. There is no Welsh language department as such, so expenditure on the Welsh language is going to be flotsam in this great tempest that relates to budgeting. So, unless you have a function for promotion that relates to firm duties on Welsh Ministers to do that, and, at the moment, they aren't firm or robust, then I would say that you can't leave this role in the hands of Government alone.

I think Alun Ffred's evidence was excellent. He was very plain spoken on that issue—that we needed to move forward from that point. And the same kind of discourse is happening elsewhere—economic development, for example. The WDA was abolished—should we now be looking at some sort of fleet-footed body that could replace the WDA in terms of economic development? It's the same kind of argument.

So, to return to your question, of course, ultimately, the Government holds the purse strings, and there are responsibilities inherent in that. But, to enable it to happen well, then you do need an agency or a body that's arm's-length from Government that does that. The Government has tried to do that through various agencies—it established Cymraeg i Oedolion—people like the Urdd, Mudiad Meithrin. The major question is: do you place all of the responsibility—do you recreate, to all intents and purposes, the Welsh Language Board with a few more regulatory powers, which is what appears to me to be in the pipeline in the Welsh Government’s White Paper?

09:55

Down ni yn ôl at y cynigion—

We’ll come back to the proposals—

Sori, rydw i wedi mynd yn rhy bell.

Sorry, I've jumped forward. 

Fe ddown ni yn ôl at y cynigion newydd a beth sy’n mynd i ddigwydd i’r dyfodol.

We'll come back to the new proposals and what’s going to happen in future.

I ddilyn i fyny ar yr hyn yr oedd Emyr yn ei ddweud ac i ymateb ymhellach i’ch cwestiwn chi, eto, rwy’n credu ei fod e’n bwysig meddwl yn nhermau’r math o swyddogaethau sydd angen ymhél â nhw, a’n bod ni’n sôn am swyddogaethau rheoleiddio sy’n ymwneud yn bennaf â gosod dyletswyddau ar sefydliadau, yn bennaf sefydliadau cyhoeddus, ac wedyn monitro gweithrediad, cwrdd â’r dyletswyddau yna ac annog gweithdrefnau mewnol sydd yn hwyluso hynny. Mae hynny wedyn yn swyddogaeth sydd, o ran natur, yn wahanol i’r math o waith ar lawr gwlad, os liciwch chi, sy’n golygu gweithio gyda grwpiau o bobl—grwpiau anffurfiol o gymdeithasau, cymunedau, teuluoedd ac yn y blaen—o ran hyrwyddo defnydd cymdeithasol o’r iaith. So, rwy’n credu ei bod hi’n bwysig ein bod ni’n deall bod y ddwy elfen yna yn wahanol o ran natur ac o ran y math o waith.

Nawr, yn oes bwrdd yr iaith, fe roedd y rheini yn eistedd o fewn un sefydliad ac mae yna drafodaethau, fe gewch chi safbwyntiau gwahanol ynglŷn ag a oedd hynny’n broses esmwyth gyda’r ddwy swyddogaeth yn gorwedd yn esmwyth gyda’i gilydd. Ar yr un pryd, mae yna ddadleuon digon dilys ynglŷn â, wel, os ydy’r ddwy swyddogaeth yn gorwedd o fewn un sefydliad, a oes yna ymrafael am ba swyddogaeth sy’n cael y mwyaf o sylw; a oes yna gystadlu mewnol am gyllid am agendâu gwahanol? Felly, mae yna ddadl ddilys hefyd dros ddweud: tra ein bod ni’n derbyn bod angen y ddau lein yma o waith, a ydy e’n saffach eu bod nhw’n eistedd mewn llefydd gwahanol? Os ydych chi’n penderfynu ar hynny, wedyn rŷch chi mewn i’r drafodaeth yr oedd Emyr yn cyffwrdd arni wedyn o, 'Wel, ai beth rŷm ni wedi’i wneud yw un rhan yn y Llywodraeth a rhan arall gyda chorff allanol?' Rwy’n meddwl bod pawb yn derbyn y syniad bod angen i’r gwaith rheoleiddio fod y tu allan i’r Llywodraeth achos ei fod e’n cynnwys rheoleiddio darpariaethau’r Llywodraeth ei hunan. Nid oedd lot o ddadlau ynglŷn â hynny. Y cwestiwn yw wedyn yw: a ydym ni’n gosod y gwaith meddalach yna, os liciwch chi, mewn yn yr un rheoleiddiwr neu yn rhywle arall—yn y Llywodraeth neu mewn corff allanol arall? Mae yna ddadleuon o blaid modelau gwahanol ond mae’n mynd yn ôl i fod yn glir ein bod ni’n deall natur y swyddogaethau gwahanol.

Just to follow up on what Emyr said and to respond further to your question, I think, again, it’s important to think in terms of the kinds of functions that we need to pursue, and that we’re talking about regulatory functions, mainly involved in imposing standards and duties, on public bodies mainly, and then monitoring the implementation, meeting those requirements and encouraging internal procedures that facilitate that process. That as a function, in terms of its nature, is different to the kind of work on the ground that means working with groups of people—informal groups of people, societies, families, communities—in terms of promoting the social use of the Welsh language. So, I think it’s important that we understand that there are those two different elements that are different because of their very nature.

In the era of the Welsh Language Board, those duties sat within one institution and you have different points of view about whether that was a smooth process with the two functions lying side by side well. But there are also valid arguments, I think, if those two functions are within one organisation, about whether there is a battle about which function receives the most attention, and whether there is internal competition for funding for different agendas. So, there is also a valid argument to say: whilst we accept we need these two streams of work, is it safer that they sit in separate places? If you decide on that, then you're into that discussion that Emyr touched on to think, 'Well, is what we’re doing having one part in the Government and one in an external body?' I think everyone accepts the idea of the regulatory work needing to be outwith the Government because it includes regulating the provisions of the Government itself, so there’s not a great deal of argument in that regard. The question then is whether we place the softer work, if you will, within the same regulator or somewhere else—in the Government or another external body. There are arguments in favour of different models but it goes back to being clear about the nature of the functions.

Okay. So, in that regard, is there any clear consensus within the sector as to what an optimum model would look like? Because, obviously, if there’s not that menu—bear in mind that some have said that the Measure has not got to grips, obviously that’s subjective, with delivering around Welsh language speakers—bearing in mind that has been stated by some, what is the vision and what is the optimum model for delivery, because if you don’t know, who does?

Rwy’n meddwl bod yna anghytuno rhyngom ni ac Emyr, sy’n hollol iach, wrth gwrs, achos rwy’n meddwl bod yna farn wahanol ynglŷn â beth sy’n briodol. Ond i fynd yn ôl i’r ffordd rŷch chi wedi fframio’r cwestiwn, fedrwn ni ddim beio’r Mesur ynghylch y trefniadau presennol. Nid rôl y Mesur ydy cynyddu nifer siaradwyr. Felly, yn ôl i’r pwynt gwreiddiol gan Siân Gwenllian—beth ydy’r cyfeiriad sydd wedi cael ei sefydlu? Oes, mae gennym ni’r Mesur ond mae gennym ni hefyd strategaeth iaith uchelgeisiol, hirdymor. Felly, ar gyfer y cyfnod yma o gynllunio ieithyddol yng Nghymru, mae yna ddau arf eithaf pwerus gennym ni mewn lle os ydyn nhw’n cael eu gweithredu i’w llawn botensial.

Rwy’n derbyn rhai o’r dadleuon ynghylch potensial asiantaeth allanol i fod yn fwy hylaw, yn fwy parod i gymryd penderfyniadau mewn modd gwahanol efallai i’r hyn sy’n digwydd o fewn Llywodraeth, ond rwy’n meddwl bod yna ddau bwynt allweddol—tri phwynt allweddol—y byddwn i’n eu gwneud. Yn gyntaf, nid ydw i’n derbyn ei bod hi’n anochel nad yw Llywodraeth yn gallu gwneud gwaith hyrwyddo. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn gwneud gwaith hyrwyddo mewn meysydd fel yr amgylchedd, iechyd ac yn y blaen, gan weithiau ddefnyddio asiantaethau allanol i wneud yr ymgyrchoedd penodol ac yn y blaen. Yn ail, yn y cyfnod yma o lymdra sy’n effeithio’n ddirfawr ar y ffaith ein bod ni’n cael y drafodaeth yma yn y lle cyntaf, rwy’n ei gweld hi’n anodd iawn gwneud dadl dros gael asiantaeth ar wahân, allanol. Nid yw'r cyllidebau dros y Gymraeg yn mynd i gynyddu'n sylweddol, ac felly, rydw i'n meddwl bod yna risg rhoi dyletswyddau hybu mewn corff y tu allan i'r Llywodraeth, achos byddem ni'n gweld yr un math o dyndra rhwng ble mae'r gwariant yn mynd, o ran rheoleiddio a hybu. Ac yn olaf, rydw i'n meddwl beth sydd gennym ni yn y strategaeth iaith bresennol ydy pwyslais cryf ar alluogi adrannau eraill o fewn y Llywodraeth i weithredu mewn ffyrdd sy'n cefnogi'r strategaeth a chefnogi’r ymdrechion i gynyddu nifer y siaradwyr, ac i gynyddu'r defnydd o'r iaith.

Ac felly, beth sydd gennym ni ydy galw am y gallu i ddylanwadu o fewn y Llywodraeth. Ac ar hyn o bryd, rydw i'n meddwl, yn anffurfiol, rydym ni'n gallu gweld bod cael swyddogion o fewn y Llywodraeth yn hynod bwysig i allu gwneud hynny, i wneud y cwrdd anffurfiol, i fynychu pwyllgorau. A'r risg ydy, ni fyddai gan gorff allanol y lefel yna o fynediad, y lefel yna o ddylanwad, ac felly'n colli'r cyfleon yma i wneud y pwyntiau pwysig yna o ddylanwadu ar adrannau eraill.

Yn ein papur ni, rydym ni wedi argymell bod angen cynyddu statws yr uned o fewn y Llywodraeth sy'n gyfrifol am y Gymraeg a chynyddu statws y swyddogion hefyd. Ond i ni, rydw i'n meddwl, rydym ni wedi pwyso a mesur, meddwl beth ydy'r gwahanol fodelau, ac i ni, rydym i'n llawer cryfach mai cryfhau’r trefniadau sy'n bodoli o fewn y Llywodraeth sydd fwyaf priodol.

I think there’s some disagreement between ourselves and Emyr, which is very healthy, because there are different views on what’s appropriate. But to go back to the way you framed the question, we can’t blame the Measure for the current arrangement. It wasn’t the role of the Measure to increase the number of speakers. So, back to the original point made by Siân Gwenllian—what is the direction of travel established? Yes, we have the Measure, but we also have a language strategy that is ambitious and long term. So, for this period of language planning in Wales, there are two powerful tools in place if they are implemented to their full potential.

Now, I accept some of the arguments about the potential of an external agency to be more fleet of foot and more willing to take decisions that would be different to those that would be taken within Government, but I think there are two key points—or three key points—that I should make here. First of all, I don’t accept that it’s inevitable that Government can’t do that promotion work. The Government does promotion work in areas such as the environment, health and so on, and makes use of external agencies to carry out specific campaigns in those areas. Secondly, in this period of austerity, which is having a huge impact on the fact that we’re having this discussion in the first place, I think it’s very difficult to make a case for having a separate, external agency. The budgets for the Welsh language aren't going to increase substantially, and I think there is a risk in placing promotion or responsibilities in a body that is outwith Government, because I think we'll see the same sort of tension in terms of where the funding goes, in terms of regulation and promotion. And, I think, finally, what we have in the current language strategy is a very strong emphasis on enabling other departments within Government to operate in a way that is supportive of the strategy and supportive of the efforts to increase the number of Welsh speakers and increase the use of the Welsh language.

So, what we have is a demand for the ability to influence within Government. And at the moment, I think, informally, we can see that having officials within Government is extremely important in doing that, so that those informal meetings can take place, and committees can be attended. And the risk is that an external body wouldn't have that level of access, or that level of influence, and therefore these opportunities would be missed to make those important points in having an influence on other departments.

In our paper, we've recommended we need to enhance the status of the unit within Government responsible for the Welsh language and enhance the status of the officials too. We've weighed up the different models and, for us, we come down far more strongly that we should be strengthening the current arrangements within Government. That's the most appropriate approach.

10:00

Jest dod yn ôl i Emyr gael ymateb i hynny, ac wedyn mi ddown ni'n ôl at y ddeddfwriaeth, cynigion y Papur Gwyn, deddfwriaeth newydd a ballu yn fwy manwl. Ond, jest i glirio'r pwynt yma, ac wedyn mi awn ni ymlaen i'r safonau.  

Just coming back to Emyr, so that he can respond to that, and we'll come back to the legislation, the proposals in the White Paper, new legislation and so on in greater detail. But, just explain this point, and then we'll go on to the standards.

Ie, nid wyf yn meddwl mai naill ai/neu yw hi. Mae gennym ni ormod o 'naill ai/neus' yn yr holl drafodaeth yma, ac mae angen y ddau. Roeddech chi'n gofyn beth oedd yr optimwm, felly rydych chi’n gofyn cwestiwn peryglus fanna, oherwydd rydych chi’n ein gwahodd ni wedyn i ddweud beth yw'r holl beth y byddem ni'n dymuno ei weld. Mae'r holl beth y byddem ni'n dymuno ei weld yn mynd ymhell tu hwnt i'r hyn sydd ger bron—er enghraifft, hawl statudol i addysg Gymraeg, a'r cyllid y tu cefn i hynny i sicrhau ei fod o'n digwydd. Mae'r math yna o bethau hefyd yn rhan o'r pecyn byddai rhywun yn dymuno ei weld, ac mae'r pethau eraill yma'n rhan ohono. 

Yes, I don't think it's an either/or situation, because there are too many 'either/ors' in this conversation, and both are needed. You asked what the optimum model is, so you're asking a very dangerous question there, because you're inviting us to say everything that we would like to see in this field. Everything that we would like to see goes far beyond what is before us—for example, the statutory right to a Welsh language education, and the funding behind that to ensure that it happens. Those kinds of things are also part of the package that one would wish to see, and these other aspects are part of it as well.

Ond, o ran asiantaeth Llywodraeth?

But, in terms of an agency within Government?

Nid naill ai/neu yw hi. Hynny yw, wrth gwrs, mae'r holl bethau da mae Elin wedi sôn amdanyn nhw, o ran cryfhau'r sut mae'r Gymraeg yn cael ei gweld a'i pharchu oddi mewn i Lywodraeth yn bethau sydd eu hangen, ond rydw i'n wirioneddol gredu, heb asiantaeth y tu allan i'r Llywodraeth, fod yna berygl na fydd pethau yn digwydd cyn gyflymed a chyn hwylused ag y bydden nhw fel arall.

It's not either/or. Of course, all of the good points that Elin has mentioned, in terms of strengthening how the Welsh language is seen and respected within Government are very necessary, but I do, truly, believe that, without an agency outwith Government, then there is a risk that things won't happen as swiftly and as conveniently as they might otherwise.

Very briefly. So, bearing in mind the importance of global best practice, what research has the Centre for Welsh Politics and Society undertaken in minority language planning?

Wel, mae'r gwaith ymchwil yn cwmpasu ystod o feysydd, ond efallai beth byddem ni'n ei ddweud yw, un bwlch—

Well, research encompasses a wide range of areas, but I think that perhaps what we would say is that, one gap—

Rydw i'n credu lle rydych chi'n mynd gyda'r cwestiwn, ac un bwlch yn ein gwaith ymchwil ni, ond hefyd yn gyffredinol, o ran maes ymchwil polisi iaith yn rhyngwladol, yw cymariaethau systematig o fodelau llywodraethiant, os liciwch chi, mewn perthynas ag ieithoedd rhanbarthol neu leiafrifol fel y Gymraeg. Pe bawn i'n siarad â fy nghydweithwyr sy'n gweithio yn y maes, un o'r beirniadaethau yw bod yna duedd i chi gael astudiaethau sy'n edrych yn fanwl iawn ar achosion unigol, ond falle ddim lot o gymharu, ac mae hynny'n wendid yn y maes. Byddem ni'n hoffi medru mynd i edrych ymhellach arno yn y dyfodol. So, nid yw ein hymchwil ni, hyd yn hyn, wedi gallu gwneud y cymharu rhyngwladol yna o ran cymharu modelau, er enghraifft, lle mae gennych chi gomisiynydd a llywodraeth neu fodelau lle mae gennych chi un asiantaeth allanol. Mae e'n wendid o ran y maes yn gyffredinol ar hyn o bryd.

I think that where you're going with that question is that one gap in our research, but also generally, in terms of the area of language policy internationally, is systematic comparisons of governance models, if you like, with regard to regional or minority languages, such as the Welsh language. If I was talking to my colleagues in this area, one of the criticisms is that you tend to have studies that look very carefully at individual cases, but not a great deal of comparison between them, and that's a weakness in the area that we would like to get to grips with in future. So, our research to date hasn't been able to make that international comparison in terms of comparing models where you have, for example, a commissioner and a government or models where you have a single external agency. That is a weakness in terms of the area as a whole.

Ocê. Fe ddown ni'n ôl at y pwyntiau mwy rhyngwladol. Ond yn ôl at y safonau, ac mi ddof i â David Melding i mewn.

Okay. We'll come back to those more international aspects later. But back to the standards, and I'll bring David Melding in here.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I'd like to go back to something—[Inaudible.]—clarity by Dr Royles and that's—. It's difficult to have effective legislation if you don't have a clear policy intent. It's taken us a long time to get a clear policy intent, I would say, despite the advantages of devolution. So, we now have this idea that a bilingual society means a minimum of about 1 million Welsh speakers by mid century. That is quite ambitious, but it's a stepping stone, presumably, to something much fuller. So, I suppose my question is: given that the Measure was passed before we had this clear policy intention, is it still a serviceable legislative vehicle for the current policy objectives of the Welsh Government?

10:05

Rwy'n meddwl mai'r lle cyntaf i ateb y cwestiwn yna yw drwy fynd yn ôl i'r pwyntiau cyffredinol yr oeddwn i'n ceisio eu gwneud o ran y gwahanol ystyriaethau sydd i bolisi iaith mewn perthynas â'r Gymraeg a rôl deddfwriaeth fel rhan o hynny. O ran strategaeth iaith 'Cymraeg 2050', y targed pennaf yn hwnnw yw'r targed o gynyddu nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg.

Yn ymarferol, tu hwnt i'r pwyntiau roedd Emyr yn sôn amdanynt, o ran sefydlu hawliau mwy penodol o ran mynediad at addysg Gymraeg, mae rôl deddfwriaeth yn ei hun o ran creu siaradwyr newydd, yn gam neu'n gymwys, yn gymharol gyfyngedig. Pennaf impact deddfwriaeth yw ein bod ni'n gallu gosod dyletswyddau cyfreithiol ar sefydliadau er mwyn iddyn nhw, wedyn, fod yn darparu'r gwasanaethau i'r siaradwyr Cymraeg yna sy'n dymuno defnyddio'r iaith.

Mae deddfwriaeth hefyd, wedyn, yn gallu creu strwythurau—mae'n gallu creu swydd comisiynydd ac mae'n gallu creu asiantaeth hybu, os yw hi'n dymuno—ond nid y ddeddfwriaeth ynddo'i hun sydd yn mynd i greu'r mentrau sydd yn mynd i gynyddu nifer y siaradwyr. Felly, yn hynny o beth, nid yw hi'n briodol, byddwn i'n dueddol o ddadlau, i bwyso a mesur y ddeddfwriaeth yn ôl beth yw targedau'r strategaeth. 

The first point to make in answering that question is to return to the general points that I was trying to make in terms of the various considerations in relation to language policy in relation to the Welsh language and the role of legislation in relation to that. So, the Welsh language strategy, 'Cymraeg 2050', the main target there is that target of increasing the number of Welsh speakers.

On a practical level, beyond the points that Emyr mentioned, in terms of establishing more specific rights in relation to access to Welsh-medium education, the role of legislation in creating new speakers, rightly or wrongly, is relatively limited. The main impact of legislation is to place legal duties on organisations and institutions so that they provide services to those Welsh speakers who wish to use the language.

Legislation can also create structures—it can create the role of commissioner and it can create a promotion agency, if it so wishes—but the legislation in and of itself isn't what is going to drive that increase in the number of Welsh speakers. So, in that regard, it's not appropriate, I would argue, to weigh up the legislation according to the targets of the strategy.

Emyr, would you take a more—? Obviously, there are Acts of Parliament that are declaratory—the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is an obvious one. Would that type of approach be useful in Welsh language policy?

Nid oes angen cyffwrdd â'r meicroffôn o gwbl.

You don't need to touch the microphones at all.

Rwy'n credu ein bod ni, i raddau, wedi cael hynny yn adran 1 y Mesur, sydd yn datgan statws swyddogol y Gymraeg. Rwy'n dal i fod yn credu ei fod yn llawer rhy gymhleth—y ffordd y mae e wedi ei ysgrifennu, fel gweddill y Mesur—ond mae e yno. Felly, mae datganiad cyfansoddiadol, os liciwch chi—rwy'n gweld yr hyn rydych yn ei ddweud—yno. 

Rwy'n credu, o ran a yw'r Mesur yma'n ddigonol i fwrw ymlaen â pholisi'r Llywodraeth, fe allech chi ddadlau, mewn un ffordd, ei fod, oherwydd er bod swyddogaethau hyrwyddo bwrdd yr iaith wedi cael eu trosglwyddo i Weinidogion Cymru, mae gan y comisiynydd ei phwerau hyrwyddo ei hun o dan y Mesur. Felly, i raddau, os mai'r hyn rydych chi'n chwilio amdano ydy chwalu dogma naw mlynedd yn ôl a mynd yn ôl at hyrwyddwr a rheoleiddiwr ynghyd, yna mae modd gwneud hynny o dan y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Y cwbl sydd angen ei wneud ydy cynyddu cyllid a chlustnodi cyllid gan Weinidogion Cymru i'r comisiynydd i fwrw ymlaen â gwaith hyrwyddo hefyd. Felly, rwy'n credu y byddai modd i chi—byddai angen rhai mân ddiwygiadau, rwy'n credu, i'r Mesur, ond byddai modd i chi, os mai dyna yw eich bwriad chi, i wneud hynny.

I think that we have had that, to an extent, in section 1 of the Measure, which states or declares the official status of the Welsh language. I still believe that it's far too complex—the way that it's written, similar to the rest of the legislation—but it is there. So, there is a constitutional declaration, if you like—I see what you're saying—there.

But, in terms of whether this Measure is sufficient to pursue the Government's policy, you could argue, in one sense, that it is, because although the promotional functions of the language board have been transferred to the Welsh Ministers, the commissioner does have her own promotional powers under the Measure. To an extent, if what you're seeking is to eradicate the dogma of nine years ago and go back to a promoter and a regulator on a joint basis, then there is a means of doing so under the current legislation. All you need to do is increase the funding, and earmark funding, from Welsh Ministers to the commissioner to continue with that promotional work as well. So, I think that you could—there would need to be some minor amendments to the Measure, but you could, if that's your intention, do that.

I think that's very helpful, because this is post-legislative scrutiny, fundamentally, and I think it's important that we look at the statute to see if it's still fit for purpose. You mentioned that it's considered by many to be quite a bureaucratic Measure, and the old regime needed better enforcement, which took us on to standards, but are the complexities and the bureaucracy an epiphenomenon of moving from one system to another, or are they absolutely a fundamental weakness in the Measure?

Rwy'n credu ychydig o'r ddau. Fel y gwnes i grybwyll gynnau, oherwydd cymhlethdod gosod yr holl fframwaith yn ei le, a'r holl wahanol bethau oedd yn gorfod bodoli cyn bod unrhyw beth yn gallu cael ei wneud, mi oedd hynny'n un agwedd ar gymhlethdod—yn gymaint ag yn gymhlethdod, mi oedd yn faich ac mi oedd yn waith trwm iawn. Wedyn, mae manylder y gwahanol offerynnau statudol sydd yn gosod y safonau yn gosod haenen arall o gymhlethdod uwchben y Mesur ei hun, sydd yn fanwl tu hwnt ynglŷn â'r ffordd y mae'n gweithredu.

Felly, rydw i'n credu bod y ddau beth yn bodoli, ond rydw i'n credu mai un peth y dylem ni ei gofio yw mai cymharol ychydig amser—. Er bod y Mesur nawr bron yn wyth mlwydd oed, cymharol ychydig amser mae'r safonau wedi ei gael i brofi eu gwerth. O ddarllen adroddiadau'r comisiynydd a'i thystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor hwn, mae'n ymddangos bod yna dystiolaeth fod y safonau'n gweithio. Hynny yw, mae'r elfen ychwanegol yma o orfodaeth ac o reoleiddio fel petasai wedi arwain at fwy o barodrwydd i gydymffurfio ar ran y rhai hynny sydd yn ddarostyngedig i safonau, a chymryd y peth mwy o ddifri. Yn sicr, fel defnyddiwr o'r Gymraeg sy'n dymuno defnyddio'r Gymraeg gymaint ag y gallaf i yn fy mywyd bob dydd, mae'r Gymraeg yn llawer mwy gweladwy ac yn llawer mwy hygyrch oddi fewn i wasanaethau y mae rhywun yn eu defnyddio nag yr oedd cyn bod y safonau yn dod i rym. Felly, mae'n bwysig ein bod ni ddim, wrth ganolbwyntio a beirniadu gorfanylder a natur fiwrocrataidd y gyfundrefn, yn colli ei gwerth hi fel cyfundrefn reoleiddio sydd yn gweithio. Felly, fy marn i yw: llai o safonau, mwy syml, mwy uniongyrchol—ond peidiwch â cholli'r drefn rheoleiddio ar yr un pryd.

I think it's a bit of both. As I mentioned earlier, because of the complexity of putting the whole framework in place, and all of the different things that needed to exist before anything could be done, then that was one aspect of the complexity—as much as it was a complexity, it was also burdensome and very difficult work. Then, the detail of the various statutory instruments that impose standards does place another layer of complexity above the Measure itself, which is already very, very detailed as to how it operates.

So, I do think that those two things exist, and one thing that we should bear in mind is that, although the Measure is now almost eight years old, it's been a relatively short period of time in which the standards have been able to prove their worth. Having read the reports of the commissioner and her evidence to this committee, then it does appear that there is evidence that the standards are working. That is to say this additional level of enforcement and regulation seems to have led to a greater willingness to comply in terms of those who are subject to standards, so that they're taking it more seriously. Certainly, as a service user who wishes to use the Welsh language as much as possible in my daily life, then the Welsh language is far more visible and far more accessible within the services that one uses than was the case before the standards came into force. So, it's important, in focusing on and criticising the minutiae and the very bureaucratic nature of the regime, that we don't lose sight of its value as a regulatory system that is working. So, my view is: fewer, simplified, more direct standards—but don't actually lose that regulatory regime.

10:10

So, with that, the reservations you would have had back in 2010 would be mostly satisfied, I think. It's for you to say, not for me to put words in your mouth.

Yn 2010, roeddwn i'n sgeptigol ynglŷn â gallu'r gyfundrefn yma i weithio, oherwydd ei chymhlethdod—dau reswm: oherwydd ei chymhlethdod ac, yn ail, oherwydd nad oedd hi'n rhoi hawliau go iawn yn yr ystyr bod unigolion yn gallu gorfodi'r hawliau yn erbyn y corff yn uniongyrchol, yn hytrach na gorfod mynd trwy'r comisiynydd. Rydw i'n credu bod y gorgymhlethdod—rydw i'n dal at hynny. Po fwyaf cymhleth bo peiriant, y mwyaf tebygol y mae'r peiriant hwnnw o fethu.

O ran yr hawliau, rydw i'n llai dogmatig ynglŷn â hynny nag oeddwn i. Rydw i'n gallu gweld bod y gyfundrefn yma wedi llwyddo i greu cydymffurfiaeth—diolch, rydw i'n credu, i ddau beth. Yn gyntaf oll, ewyllys a gwaith caled y comisiynydd a'i thîm, ac yn yr ail le, ar y cyfan, ewyllys da oddi mewn i'r sector gyhoeddus. Rydw i'n dweud 'ar y cyfan', achos mae'n eglur bod yna o hyd, mewn rhai mannau, nid dim ond diffyg diddordeb ond hefyd gwrthwynebiad i'r cysyniad o ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn y sector gyhoeddus. 

Felly, o ran hawliau, rydw i'n dal i fod yn credu bod angen rhoi hawliau, ond rydw i'n tynnu fy het i'r cysyniad o safonau. Mae o wedi gweithio'n well nag oeddwn i wedi rhagweld.

In 2010, I was sceptical about the ability of this system to work, because of its complexity—first, because of its complexity, and secondly because it didn't give real rights in the sense that individuals could directly enforce their rights against a body rather than having to go through the commissioner. I think that over-complexity is still a problem; I hold to that. The more complex a machine is, the more likely it is to fail.

In terms of the rights, I'm less dogmatic on that issue than I was. I can see that this regime has succeeded in generating compliance, thanks to two things, I believe. First, the hard work and will of the commissioner and her team, and, secondly, generally speaking, goodwill within the public sector. I say 'generally speaking' because it is clear that there are still some areas where there is not only a lack of interest but also opposition to the concept of using the Welsh language in the public sector.

So, in terms of rights, I do still think that we need to provide those rights, but I doff my cap to this concept of standards. It has worked better than I had anticipated.

That's an interesting point—your doffing your cap to the standards regime. Clearly, you're suggesting, Emyr, that they are proving themselves, but I think it is a question now—and I think the Centre for Welsh Politics and Society has said there could be a case for adaptation if it's overly complex. Perhaps you'd all like to comment on that. Is it too early to amend standards, because, obviously, then you can create uncertainty in terms of change—are they ready for development?

Fel y dywedodd Macbeth:

As Macbeth said:

'Returning were as tedious as go o'er.'

Mae rhywun yn teimlo bod angen mwy o amser arnyn nhw, ac mae rhywun yn teimlo hefyd fod natur feichus rhai o'r—. Mae angen edrych yn fanwl a chraffu'n fanwl ar ystyr fanwl rhai o'r pethau yma. Mae tystiolaeth, rydw i'n credu, Tribiwnlys y Gymraeg ichi, yn ddiddorol iawn ar y pwynt yma. Maen nhw'n awgrymu rhywbeth tebyg—y byddai hi'n beth da i wneud y gyfundrefn yn llai manwl ac yn fwy hylaw yn gyfreithiol. Llai 'cyfreithlyd', os leiciwch chi, os ydy hynny'n cyfieithu i'r Saesneg, nid ydw i'n siŵr. 

One does feel that more time is needed by them, and also that the burdensome nature of some of these—. We need to look in great detail and to scrutinise the meaning of some of these things. I think the evidence of the Welsh Language Tribunal to you is very interesting on this point. They suggest something similar, namely that it would be a good thing to make the system less detailed and more accessible legally. Less legalese, perhaps, would be the term.

10:15

Rydw i yn meddwl ei bod hi'n gyfnod cynnar, ac mae'n eithriadol o gynnar, i fod yn awgrymu diwygiadau mor sylweddol ag sydd ar y bwrdd ar hyn o bryd. I fynd yn ôl at bwynt Elin yn gynharach, mae yna strategaeth iaith sylweddol mewn lle a Mesur sydd dal yn gynnar iawn. Felly, mae'r syniad o gyflwyno diwygiadau sydd mor sylweddol i'r pecyn yna ar hyn o bryd yn taro rhywun fel rhywbeth sy'n digwydd yn eithriadol o sydyn. O ran y gyfundrefn safonau ei hunan, rydw i'n meddwl efallai, o ystyried y gwahanol fathau o ddiwygiadau sydd ar y bwrdd, fod rhai o'r pwyntiau yr oedd Emyr yn sôn amdanynt o ran union fanylder y safonau a sut maen nhw'n cael eu fframio, sy'n bethau eithaf technegol—bod modd gwahaniaethu'r rheini o gymharu â'r syniadau sydd hefyd yn cael eu hystyried o ddiwygio'r holl broses o sut mae safonau'n cael eu gosod. Rôl y Llywodraeth mewn perthynas â rôl y comisiynydd—mae hwnnw'n mynd â rhywun i lefel mwy sylweddol o ddiwygio'r drefn. Felly, at ei gilydd, byddwn i, oherwydd ein bod ni'n dal mewn cyfnod cymharol gynnar, yn tueddu tuag at, 'Os diwygio, diwygio mwy manwl, technegol, sydd yn edrych ar fireinio pethau' yn hytrach nag ailbecynnu’r holl broses yn llwyr.

I do think that it's too early to be suggesting such significant amendments as are on the table at the moment. But to go back to Elin's earlier point, there is a substantial strategy and a Measure in place that are still in their infancy. So, the idea of making such significant amendments to the package now strikes one as something that's happening exceptionally soon. In terms of the standards regime itself, I think, considering the different kinds of amendments that are on the table, that some of the points that Emyr made about the exact detail of the standards and how they're framed, which are technical issues—we can differentiate between those and the ideas that are also being considered about amending this entire process of how standards are imposed. Then the role of the Government and the role of the commissioner—that takes us to a more significant level of amending the regime. So, talken all together, because we're still in a relatively early period, I would tend towards thinking that if amendments are to be made, it should be those more detailed, technical amendments that are about refining things rather than repackaging the entire process.

Buaswn i'n ategu'r pwyntiau yna. Rydw i'n meddwl bod yna risg mewn tanseilio'r cynnydd sydd wedi bod yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf drwy adolygu'n sylweddol. Rydw i'n meddwl, pan ydym ni'n edrych ar nifer o feysydd polisi yn y Gymru ddatganoledig, mae yna, fel petai, fwy o gryfder mewn llunio strategaethau nag sydd yna yn eu gweithredu nhw, ac felly yn yr un modd ynglŷn â deddfwriaeth, a'r risg ydy, efallai, nad ydym ni'n trio mynd ati o ddifrif i weithredu. Ac mewn maes fel hyn lle mae staffio'n eithaf cyfyngedig, efallai bod yna organolbwyntio’r adnoddau ar adolygu yn hytrach nag ar weithredu a gweld pa mor effeithlon y gallwn ni sicrhau bod y trefniadau yma'n bod. O edrych ar dystiolaeth y comisiynydd hefyd, beth rydym ni'n ei weld ydy nid darlun statig, ond bod hon yn broses esblygol, a bod yna gamau wedi cael eu cymryd i wneud y broses yn symlach o fewn y cyd-destun sy'n bodoli, bod y dulliau o weithredu yn cael eu haddasu, y dull o reoleiddio, a bod y berthynas efo cyrff yn newid. 

So, rydw i'n meddwl bod gwir angen osgoi symud yn rhy fyrbwyll, efallai, i ddiwygio sylweddol, achos, hefyd, mae'r byd yn ein gwylio ni. Rydym ni yn arwain yn rhyngwladol; rydym ni'n gofyn am esiamplau rhyngwladol inni ddysgu oddi wrthyn nhw, ond rydym ni'n arwain yn rhyngwladol yng Nghymru. Nid ydym ni'n cydnabod ein hunain yn ddigon aml. A, weithiau, pan ydych chi'n mynd i edrych ar y llenyddiaeth ar wledydd eraill, rydych chi'n sylweddoli yn fwy fwy, 'A, mabwysiadu model Cymru a wnaethon nhw fanna', 'O, maen nhw'n gwylio'r hyn rydym ni'n ei wneud yng Nghymru', ac, rydw i'n meddwl, wrth inni weld datblygiadau rhyngwladol fel beth sy'n digwydd yng Nghatalonia a'r dirywiad yn y trefniadau yn fanna yn sgil ymyrraeth Llywodraeth Sbaen, mae gennym ni rôl yma yng Nghymru i gynnal beth rydym ni wedi'i greu ac i fod yn arfer da rhyngwladol i, o leiaf, roi cyfle go iawn i drefniant drio gweithio. 

Buaswn i'n gallu codi pwyntiau hefyd fel goblygiadau trefniadau'r comisiynydd ac atebolrwydd ac apwyntio'r comisiynydd. Nid ydy materion strwythurol fel yna chwaith wedi helpu'r cyd-destun, ac mi oedd y cyfnod cynnar yn hynod o anodd. Ond, byddai datrys materion fel yna yn gofyn am ddiwygio sylweddol. Rydw i'n meddwl ei fod o'n llawer gwell trio gweithio o fewn y gyfundrefn a gweld sut all y strategaeth weithio ochr yn ochr â'r Mesur. 

I would echo those points. I think there is a risk in undermining the progress made over the past few years by having serious revision. I think, when we look at a number of policy areas in devolved Wales, there seems to be more force in drawing up strategies than there is in their implementation, and the same may be true of legislation. The risk is that, perhaps, we don't truly take action, and in an area such as this, where staffing is quite limited, there is, perhaps, an over-concentration of resources on review rather than implementation and ensuring that these arrangements do work effectively. In looking at the evidence of the commissioner, too, what we see is not a static picture but a process of evolution and that steps have been taken to simplify the process within the current context, that the means of implementation are being adapted, that the regulatory approach is being adapted and that relationships with bodies are developing.

So, I do think that we truly need to avoid moving in haste towards extensive reform—because the world is watching us. We are leaders on the international stage. We're looking at international examples, but we are in the vanguard in Wales and we don't give ourselves that recognition often enough. When you look at the literature about elsewhere, you realise more and more, 'Well, they're adopting a Welsh model there', 'Well, they're watching us here in Wales and they're doing what we're doing', and, I think, as we see international development, such as what's happening in Catalonia and the decline in the arrangements there as a result of the intervention of the Spanish Government, then we have a role here in Wales to maintain what we have created, to be an exemplar on the international stage and, at least, give a real opportunity for these arrangements to work.

Now, I could raise some points on the implications of the appointment and accountability of the commissioner. Such structural issues haven't helped the context either, and that early period was a very difficult time, but resolving issues such as those would require significant amendment and reform, and I think it's far better to try and work within the current system and to see how the strategy can work along with the Measure.

Diolch. Really, as with so many of our policy intents, and those backed by legislation, it is about implementation, it is about delivery, learning best practice, sharing best practice, and it is, as you've all said, early days. So, what are your views on the Welsh Government's decision not to introduce new regulations until proposals for new legislation have been worked out? 

O ystyried hynny, un o'r pethau rydw i'n—. Mae Emyr eisoes wedi sôn am dystiolaeth Alun Ffred, ac un o'n pethau yr oedd e'n eu pwysleisio fanna—a byddwn i'n ategu hynny'n llwyr—yw un o'r pethau sydd yn broblem fawr yn y penderfyniad yna yw'r ffaith ein bod ni'n parhau mewn sefyllfa lle nad yw'r gwasanaethau iechyd wedi dod o dan y drefn safonau eto. Mae hwnnw'n sector pwysig iawn, allweddol iawn, ac mae'r penderfyniad i oedi felly yn golygu bod yna rai sectorau allweddol sydd ddim yn gweithredu o dan y system reoleiddio ar hyn o bryd, ac mae hynny yn gonsyrn. Mae'n bwydo nôl wedyn i'r holl gonsyrn ynglŷn â cholli momentwm—bod yna waith mawr yn creu systemau wedi digwydd, a bod angen y ffocws ar weithredu, rydw i'n teimlo. 

Well, one of the things that I—Emyr has already mentioned Alun Ffred's evidence, and one of the things that he emphasised there—and I would endorse it entirely—is that one of the things that's a great problem in that decision is that we're continuing a situation where the health services haven't come under the standards regime yet. That's a sector that's very important, a key sector, and the decision to delay means that there are some key sectors that don't operate under the current regulatory system, and that is a concern. It feeds back in terms of the concern with regard to the loss of momentum—there is a great deal of work in creating systems that has taken place, and we need the focus on implementation, I think.  

10:20

A oes sylwadau pellach ar hynny? 

Any further comments on that? 

Gobeithio bydd eich ymchwiliad chi yn gam i symud hynny ymlaen, mewn ffordd. Mae yna oedi. Mae yna hefyd symud ymlaen tuag at ddatblygu cyfundrefn comisiwn, ac yn y blaen. Eto, rydym ni'n delio â chyd-destun lle mae'r staffio yn fychan. Ai dyna'r defnydd gorau o adnoddau staff ar hyn o bryd, neu yn hytrach roi tro go iawn ar weithredu'r ddeddfwriaeth? A ydym ni wir yn wynebu sefyllfa lle nad ydy deddfwriaeth yn gweithio o gwbl? Nid wyf i'n eglur. Rydw i'n ofni mwy mai'r cyd-destun ehangach o lymdra, ac yn y blaen, sy'n effeithio ar yr heriau o amgylch gweithredu'r ddeddfwriaeth yma, yn yr un modd â darnau eraill o ddeddfwriaeth fel Bil cenedlaethau'r dyfodol o fewn y sector cyhoeddus. 

I hope your inquiry will be a step in moving that forward. There has been delay. There has also been some progress towards the establishment of a commission and so forth, but we are talking of a context where the staffing levels are low. Is that best use of staff resources at the moment, or should we be trying to properly implement the legislation we already have? Are we truly facing a situation where the legislation has failed? I'm not clear about that. I fear that the broader context of austerity, and so on, is impacting the challenges around the implementation of this legislation, like other pieces of legislation such as the well-being of future generations Bill in the public sector. 

Diolch. Mi ddown ni at y cynigion ar gyfer deddfwriaeth newydd efo Jenny fan hyn, rŵan. 

Thank you very much. We'll come to the proposals for new legislation with Jenny now. 

Okay. I just wanted to pick up on one issue, which is around the health service, which is—we can't go any faster than the experts we've got available to deliver health. If I need heart surgery, I don't care which language they speak. But, clearly, if I need mental health services, I obviously want to speak in my language of choice. So, you can understand the complexities of that argument. We've nibbled a lot at the edges around the new legislation, and heard quite a lot about your reservations. What, if any, are the benefits of the proposed new legislation as far as you can see? 

Nid ydym ni wedi gweld deddfwriaeth eto, wrth gwrs, beth rydym ni wedi ei weld ydy Papur Gwyn, ac mae hwnnw yn beth gwahanol iawn. Rydw i eisiau gweld y peth wedi ei ysgrifennu lawr cyn fy mod i'n rhoi barn derfynol ar y peth. Ond byddwn i'n dweud mai'r peth rwy'n ei weld yn gadarnhaol—yn y lle cyntaf, mae'r Papur Gwyn yn bapur trylwyr, ac wedi gwneud gwaith gofalus, rydw i'n credu. Ar adegau, mae o'n neidio dros rhai pethau, fel y byddai rhywun yn ei ddisgwyl, ond mae o'n gosod allan opsiynau ac mae o'n gosod rhesymau dros ba opsiynau sydd yn ddewisol. Ond byddwn i'n dweud y peth cadarnhaol ydy'r sylweddoliad—ac efallai bod hyn yn groes i beth mae Elin a Huw yn ei ystyried—ond y sylweddoliad yma bod angen rhywbeth lled braich sydd yn gwneud y gwaith hyrwyddo, hybu yma fel asiantaeth gyhoeddus, felly. Rydw i'n credu bod hwnnw yn beth cadarnhaol tu hwnt, ac yn rhywbeth a oedd hen angen ei wneud, ac mae o'n fusnes anorffenedig, rydw i'n credu, o'r Mesur gwreiddiol. Felly, byddwn i'n dweud bod hwnnw yn beth cadarnhaol iawn. 

We haven't seen the legislation yet; we've only seen the White Paper, and that's a very different thing. I want to see it written down before expressing a final view on it, but I would say that what I see as being positive is, in the first instance, the White Paper is thoroughly drafted; some careful work has been done on it. On occasions, it skips over certain issues that one might expect, but it does set out some options and it provides a rationale for which options would be the options of choice. But I would say that the positive is the realisation—and perhaps it contradicts what Elin and Huw believe—but this realisation that you need something at an arm's length that does that promotion and facilitation work, such as a public agency of some sort. I think that's a very positive development, and something that was truly needed, but it's unfinished business, I think, from the original Measure. So, I think that that would be very positive.  

But I think, Dr Lewis, you said that you could add to the Welsh Language Commissioner's role—give them more of a promotional role, no? 

Na, wnes i ddim. 

No, I didn't. 

There are two Lewises. [Laughter.] 

Wel, do, fe wnes i ddweud hynny, ond hyd nes y papur hwn nid ydy'r ymrwymiad polisi hwnnw wedi bod yno; mae o wedi bod i'r gwrthwyneb, sef mai o fewn y Llywodraeth mae'r lle cywir i wneud hynny. Felly, er bod y Mesur presennol yn galluogi hynny i ddigwydd, nid ydy o, fel mater o ffaith, wedi digwydd oherwydd nad oes cyllideb wedi ei rhoi i'r comisiynydd, am resymau dealladwy iawn, ar gyfer gwneud hynny. Felly, yr hyn rydw i'n ei gael sy'n beth cadarnhaol o'r Papur Gwyn hwn ydy'r sylweddoliad polisi bod angen rhywbeth ychwanegol oddi mewn i'r mix o ran hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg.  

Well, yes, I made that point, but until this White Paper, the policy commitment to that hasn't been in place; it's been to the contrary, namely that it was within Government that was the appropriate place to do that. So, although the current Measure enables that to happen, it hasn't, as a matter of fact, happened, because no budget's been provided to the commissioner in order to carry out those functions, for very understandable reasons. So, what I see as being positive in this White Paper is the policy realisation that you need something additional in the mix in terms of promoting the Welsh language. 

Beth rydw i'n bersonol yn meddwl sydd yn gryfder yn y Papur Gwyn yw: mae e yn y rhannau agoriadol yn glir iawn yn gosod allan y math o bwyntiau roeddwn i'n eu mynegi yn gynharach o ran yr elfennau gwahanol o bolisi sydd eu hangen mewn perthynas â'r Gymraeg, ac yn cynnig eglurhad o sut mae'r Llywodraeth yn dehongli beth sydd yn dod o dan y syniad o reoleiddio, sydd yn y bôn yn golygu pwyso a gweithio gyda sefydliadau, ac wedyn y syniad ehangach yna o hybu defnydd cymdeithasol. Mae'n cyflwyno hynny'n glir.

Fel rydw i wedi trio egluro, ac fel mae Elin wedi egluro yn yr atebion cynt, beth nad ydym ni efallai wedi'n hargyhoeddi ohono hyd yn hyn yw'r ateb lle mae'r Papur Gwyn yn cyrraedd yn y pen draw, sef mai'r syniad gorau yw cyfuno'r ddwy swyddogaeth yna mewn un asiantaeth allanol. Rydw i'n meddwl, yn fwyaf sylfaenol, yr hyn rydw i'n ei deimlo ar hyn o bryd yw bod y swyddogaethau yna yn well wedi'u gwahanu. Mewn byd delfrydol, efallai y byddai rhywun yn gallu cael dwy asiantaeth allanol a fyddai'n gwneud y gwaith yna, ond am resymau'n ymwneud ag adnoddau a realiti gwleidyddol presennol, nid yw hynny'n debygol o ddigwydd. Ac felly, i fynd nôl i'r pwynt yna, wedyn, fy mod i'n teimlo eu bod nhw'n well fel swyddogaethau ar wahân, mae rhywun yn dod nôl i gysidro'r model o Lywodraeth yn gwneud yr hybu yn fwy effeithiol a'r comisiynydd yn cael yr eglurder yna i ganolbwyntio’n fwy penodol ar y gwaith rheoleiddio.

What I personally feel is a strength in this is that it does, in the opening sections, very clearly set out the kinds of points that I was expressing earlier in terms of the different elements of policy that are required with regard to the Welsh language, and it offers an explanation of how the Government perceives those issues that come within the regulatory regime, which means working with organisations, and then the wider idea of promoting the social use of the language. It does set that out clearly. 

As I've tried to explain, and as Elin has tried to explain in earlier answers, where we aren't convinced to date is that response that the White Paper offers ultimately, namely that it combines those two functions in one external body. I think, on a more fundamental level, what I feel at the moment is that those functions are better off held separately. In an ideal world, perhaps one could have two external agencies that would do that work, but for reasons to do with resources and political reality at the moment, that's not likely to happen. And so, to go back to that point, then, that I feel that they're better held as separate functions, one comes back to considering the model of the Government doing the promotional work more effectively and the commissioner then focusing on that clarity in terms of that greater focus on the regulatory work.

10:25

Okay, but that's what we've got at the moment, so why would we need legislation?

Wel, fe fyddwn i'n cytuno â chi bod yna gwestiwn i'w godi ynglŷn ag a oes angen deddfwriaeth, felly. Rydw i'n meddwl bod yna le, yn y ffordd y mae swyddogaethau wedi'u dynodi ar hyn o bryd, efallai, i fod yn fwy eglur. Mae'r ieithwedd sy'n cael ei defnyddio wrth ddisgrifio rôl y comisiynydd yn dueddol o gynnwys jest y derminoleg o hybu yn aml, ac fe allai hynny jest bod yn ddamwain o'r ffordd y mae pethau wedi'u drafftio, sut mae dogfennau wedi’u mynegi, ond mae e'n creu'r argraff i nifer o bobl, felly, fod—. Mae e'n mynd nôl i'r pwynt yma fod y syniad yma o hybu iaith yn gallu cael ei ddefnyddio mewn gwahanol gyd-destunau. Mae e'n creu'r argraff weithiau y dylai'r comisiynydd fel corff fod yn ymwneud â'r holl ystod o bethau y byddem ni'n disgwyl eu gwneud i hybu ac annog y defnydd o'r Gymraeg. Ond fy nheimlad i yw mai mwy priodol fel ei bennaf swyddogaeth yw'r gwaith yna o weithio gyda sefydliadau a'u cael nhw i gwrdd â'u dyletswyddau, a bod y syniad ehangach yna, wedyn, o weithio gydag unigolion, teuluoedd a chymunedau, mewn cyd-destunau cymdeithasol, i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn waith sy'n well i ddigwydd yn rhywle arall.

Well, I would agree that there is a question to ask about whether legislation is needed, therefore. I think there is a role, in the way that the functions are allocated at present, perhaps, to be more clear on that. The language that's used in describing the role of the commissioner tends to include just the terminology of promoting and promotion, and that could be just an accident of drafting, how the documents express themselves, but is does create that impression to many people, therefore, that—. It goes back to this point that the idea of promoting a language can be used in different contexts. It does sometimes create the impression that the commissioner as a body should deal with this whole range of issues with regard to promoting the use of the Welsh language. But my feeling is that it's more appropriate to have, as its main function, working with organisations and getting them to meet their duties, and that that wider idea, then, of working with individuals, families and communities, in social contexts, to use the Welsh language is work that is better done elsewhere. 

You emphasised that there should be specific core rights on the face of any Bill, for example the right to Welsh-medium nursery care and the right to Welsh-medium education. I would argue that that's a crucial tool for promoting the Welsh language. If you provide good Welsh-medium nursery education, you won't have any difficulty filling the places. So—

Wel, rydw i'n meddwl efallai bod eisiau—. Mae enghraifft gyda chi fanna o sut mae'r derminoleg yma o hybu a hyrwyddo yn gallu mynd yn anodd i'w dal. Rydych chi'n iawn yn yr ystyr—boed e drwy y syniad o ddatgan hawliau ar Fil, fel rydym ni'n ei drafod yn y papur, neu ei fod yn cael ei warantu drwy drefniadau safonau, er enghraifft bod gwasanaeth o safon drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn cael ei gyflwyno, o ran gofal, addysg neu unrhyw fath o wasanaeth arall—. Mae darparu hynny yn glir ac o safon yn rhywbeth sy'n gallu cael ei wneud, ydy, ond mae dal rôl, wedyn, o ran yr hyn rydym ni'n gwybod o ran arferion defnydd iaith pobl ac agweddau defnydd iaith pobl—bydd dal angen hefyd, wedyn, am waith hyrwyddo a marchnata ehangach sydd yn ymwneud ag annog nid jest y sawl sydd eisoes yn benderfynol eu bod nhw eisiau defnyddio'r gwasanaeth yma, ond gwerthu'r syniad i gynulleidfaoedd ehangach. Achos dyna lle rydym ni'n croesi, mewn ffordd, wedyn, o'r syniad yna o fod yn darparu ar gyfer y dinasyddion sydd eisoes yn byw eu bywyd yn Gymraeg, i'r syniad ehangach yna, sy'n rhan o strategaeth ehangach y Llywodraeth, o fod yn creu twf, ac nid jest darparu i'r sawl sydd yn siarad Cymraeg eisoes, ond yn annog mwy o drigolion Cymru i ddysgu'r iaith a byw eu bywyd drwy gyfrwng yr iaith. So, mae'r hybu a'r marchnata ehangach yna yn waith gwahanol. Byddai dal angen hynny, dim ots pa mor safonol yw'r gwasanaeth sy'n cael ei ddarparu. Mewn ffordd, mae'r drafodaeth yna'n cyfleu beth sydd efallai bach yn anodd am ddal y termau yma weithiau. 

Well, I think that, perhaps, there is a need—. You have an example there of how this terminology of promoting and facilitating can become difficult to get a grip of. You're right in the sense that—whether it's through this idea of stating rights on the face of the Bill, as we discuss in the paper, or that it's guaranteed through standards regimes, for example that there is a quality service through the medium of Welsh given, in terms of education, care or any other kind of service—. Providing that clearly and of quality is something that can be done, yes, but there is still a role, then, in terms of what we know about the practices of people's language use and people's attitudes towards language use—there will still be a need, then, for promotional and marketing work more widely with regard to not just encouraging those who are already convinced that they want to use that service, but in selling the idea to wider audiences. Because that's where we cross, in a way, from this idea of providing for the citizens who already live their life through the medium of Welsh, to the wider idea, which is part of the Government's wider strategy, of creating growth, and not just providing for those who already speak Welsh, but encouraging more of the citizens of Wales to learn the language and to live their life through the medium of Welsh. So, that wider promotion and marketing is different work—we'll still need that, regardless of the quality of the service that's provided. In a way, that discussion conveys what is perhaps difficult to get to grips with sometimes with this terminology.

Ac ar hyn o bryd, wrth gwrs, mae'r gwaith yna, y gwaith ehangach yna, yn digwydd gan uned fechan iawn, iawn o fewn y Llywodraeth. Petai'r uned yna efo mwy o adnoddau, y ddadl ydy y bydden nhw'n gallu gwneud llawer iawn yn fwy. Ond yn greiddiol i'r uned yna ar hyn o bryd ydy gwaith y mentrau iaith a'r mudiadau fel y mudiad ysgolion meithrin ac yn y blaen, sydd yn gwneud gwaith hyrwyddo. Dyna ydy'r gwahaniaeth, mae'n debyg, onid e? Petai hwnnw'n gallu cael ei gryfhau—drwy gryfhau o fewn Llywodraeth neu, fel rydych chi'n ei awgrymu, y tu allan i Lywodraeth, ac mae yna ddadleuon ar draws yn fanna—dyna ydy gwir hyrwyddo, ac wedyn mae rheoleiddio ac efallai hybu hawliau yn rhywbeth a fyddai'n parhau gyda'r comisiynydd. A ydw i'n deall hynny—?

And at the moment, of course, that broader work is happening within a very, very small unit within Government. If that unit had greater resources, the argument is that they could do far more. But at the heart of that unit at the moment is the work of the mentrau iaith and organisations such as mudiad ysgolion meithrin and so on, who do that promotion work. I suppose that's the difference, isn't it? If that could be strengthened—through strengthening it within Government or, as you suggest, outwith Government, and there are some contradicting arguments there—that's the real promotion work, and then the regulation and the promotion of rights is something that could remain with the commissioner. Have I understood that correctly?

10:30

Yn fras, ie. 

Broadly speaking, yes. 

Ac mewn ffordd, nid y cyrff yna yn unig sydd yn gweithredu yn uniongyrchol o ran y Gymraeg sy'n rhan o'r hybu; mae cynghorau lleol yn rhan o'r hybu yna wrth ddarparu gwersi nofio yn Gymraeg. Mae angen meddwl y tu hwnt i'r cyrff Cymraeg penodol, a thrwy gael y swyddogaethau hybu a rôl mewn cyfeirio hybu o fewn y Llywodraeth, mae'n llawer haws cael gafael ar gydlynu'r ystod eang o gyrff yna sy'n gallu dylanwadu ar yr anogaeth i bobl ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg ac ehangu'r cyfleon i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg, rwy'n credu. 

And in a way, it's not just those bodies that operate directly in terms of the Welsh language that are involved in the promotion; local authorities are part of that promotional work in providing swimming lessons through the medium of Welsh. We need to think beyond those specific Welsh bodies, and through having those promotional functions and a role in directing promotion through Government, it's much easier to co-ordinate that wide range of bodies that can influence the encouragement of people to use the Welsh language and to expand the opportunities for them to do so, I think. 

Ac ar hyn o bryd, mae'r uned fechan yna yn gorwedd o fewn yr adran addysg, os ydw i'n gywir. Rydych chi'n dadlau bod angen uchafu honno i fod yn rhyw fath o gyfarwyddiaeth gorfforaethol a fydd yn gyrru y newid yna sydd ei angen o ran ymddygiad ac o ran yr hyrwyddo cyffredinol yna. Rydych chi'n meddwl y dylai hynny fod yn uwch i fyny, ar dop Llywodraeth.

And at the moment, that small unit sits within the education department, I believe I'm right in saying that. You're arguing that you need to up its status, so it would be a corporate directorate that drives that change in terms of behaviour and in terms of that general promotional activity. You believe that that should be at the very top of Government. 

Mae'r math o fodel rydym ni'n dadlau o'i blaid yn y papur yma yn awgrymu, ydy, fod cryfhau'r uned yna i allu gwneud y gwaith roeddech chi'n ei amlinellu o ran hybu yn fwy effeithiol a chyfarwyddo hynny. Ond byddwn i'n dadlau, beth bynnag yw'r model sy'n cael ei ffafrio yn y pen draw—felly, petaem ni'n parhau ar hyd y llwybr sydd wedi'i amlinellu yn y Papur Gwyn ac yn symud i fodel tebycach i'r hyn roedd Emyr yn ei drafod yn gynharach—mae'r angen i edrych ar beth yw'r strwythur o ran delio â'r Gymraeg o fewn y Llywodraeth dal yn fater sydd angen ei drafod, beth bynnag yw'r model rydym ni'n ei gyrraedd yn y pen draw.

Gallech chi bron â dadlau, os ydym ni'n cyrraedd sefyllfa lle mae'r swyddogaethau hybu yna roeddech chi'n eu hamlinellu yn mynd allan o'r Llywodraeth, dyweder i'r comisiwn arfaethedig, mae bron mwy o angen edrych yn fanylach, felly, ar beth yw y trefniadaeth fewnol o fewn y Llywodraeth, achos rydym ni'n dal yn mynd i fod â strategaeth iaith Cymraeg 2050. Mae honno'n strategaeth a gafodd ei hysgrifennu gan isadran y Gymraeg, ond o ran ei gweithredu, mae dogn mwyaf y gwaith yn galw am waith gan yr adran addysg ac adrannau eraill o'r Llywodraeth. So, os ydy'r strategaeth yna'n mynd i gael ei gweithredu, nid oes dim ots beth yw'r modelau a fydd yn deillio o'r Papur Gwyn yma, bydd angen edrych yn fanwl ar beth yw'r trefniant yn y Llywodraeth, er mwyn sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth sifil, yn ei wahanol adrannau, yn gweithredu'r strategaeth yna, sy'n strategaeth ar draws y Llywodraeth. Mae'r elfen yna—rydym ni'n trafod beth ddylai fod tu allan ac o fewn i'r Llywodraeth, ond mae dal angen edrych, beth bynnag yw'r model, ar beth fydd y trefniant o fewn y Llywodraeth. 

The kind of model that we're arguing in favour of in this paper is that, yes, it's about strengthening that unit to do the work that you've outlined more effectively and to direct that work. But I would argue, regardless of what the model that is favoured is—so, if we were to continue along this route that's outlined in the White Paper and move to a model more akin to what Emyr was discussing earlier—there's still that need to look at what the structure is in terms of dealing with the Welsh language within Government, regardless of the ultimate model.

You could almost argue, if we reach a situation where the promotional functions that you outlined do go outwith Government, say to the proposed commission, there's almost more of a need to look in detail at what the internal arrangements are within Government, because we're still going to have the 2050 strategy. That's a strategy that was written by the Welsh language division in Government, but in terms of the implementation, the vast majority of the work demands work by the education department and other departments of Government. So, if that strategy is going to be implemented, regardless of the model that stemmed from the White Paper, there will be a need to look in detail at what the Government arrangements are, in order to ensure that the civil service, in its different divisions, do implement that strategy across Government. That element—we're almost discussing what should be within and outwith the Government, but we still need to look at what the arrangements within the Government will be.  

Ac rwy'n cymryd bod y tri ohonoch chi yn cytuno efo hynny, hynny yw bod y ddeddfwriaeth—efallai bod yna ddadl dros adael i bethau fod efo'r Ddeddf fel y mae ar hyn o bryd, ond bod angen symud y pwyslais tuag at sut ydym ni'n cyflawni'r strategaeth i gyrraedd 1 filiwn o siaradwyr. O dderbyn bod ishio rhywfaint—efallai bod yna angen diwygio rhyw ychydig ar y Mesur ac ar y ffordd mae'r safonau yn cael eu gweithredu ac yn y blaen, ond, efallai, prif waith o ran cael mwy o bobl i siarad Cymraeg ydy edrych ar sut i weithredu'r strategaeth yn hytrach na meddwl am beth i'w wneud efo'r ddeddfwriaeth.

And I assume that all three of you would agree on that, namely that there may be an argument for allowing things to remain as they are with the current legislation, but that you need to shift the emphasis towards how we deliver the 1 million Welsh speakers strategy. Accepting that there is need for some—perhaps there is a need to somewhat reform the Measure and how standards are implemented and so on, but, perhaps, the main work in terms of encouraging more people to use the Welsh language is looking at how we implement the strategy rather than thinking about changes to legislation.

Wel, ie, ond mi fuaswn i'n pwysleisio, fel rydych chi wedi ei wneud, bwysigrwydd addysg. Buaswn i'n dadlau bod angen—os ydych chi yn sôn am hyn—mae angen deddfu am yr hawl i addysg Gymraeg, a byddai hynny wedyn yn sicrhau y math o flaenoriaethu y mae Huw ac Elin wedi bod yn sôn amdano oddi mewn i'r Llywodraeth, oherwydd y mae'n rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid ei ddelifro, ac mi fyddai hefyd yn sicrhau blaenoriaethu, a galluogi blaenoriaethu gan y Llywodraeth ganolog, i alluogi llywodraeth leol i'w ddelifro. Mae llywodraeth leol mewn nifer o fannau yng Nghymru yn gwneud gwaith ardderchog, er gwaetha'r caledi, er mwyn ymateb i'r galw cynyddol am addysg Gymraeg. Ond mae'n eglur eu bod nhw ymhell ar ei hôl hi pan ydych chi'n edrych ar y ffigurau. Mae'n rhaid inni edrych ar addysg, rydw i'n credu, bron â bod mewn bocs—ddim yn gwbl ar wahân, ond mewn bocs ar wahân i weddill y trafodaethau yma.

Rydw i'n credu bod un agwedd arall nad ydym ni wedi sôn amdani, ac rydw i'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni'n gwneud, sef ein bod ni'n cydnabod rhywbeth sydd yn y Papur Gwyn, a hefyd mi gododd o dystiolaeth y comisiynydd, sydd yn bwynt gwerthfawr sydd angen ei wneud, sef bod yna wahaniaeth rhwng hybu a hyrwyddo ar y naill law a hwyluso ar y llaw arall, rhwng 'promote' a 'facilitate'. O'r gorau? Beth bynnag rydych chi'n ei ddweud ynglŷn â hybu a hyrwyddo sy'n ymwneud â chynllunio ieithyddol ac yn y blaen, ac yn blaen ac yn y blaen, mae'r cwestiwn yma o alluogi rhai sydd sy'n ddarostyngedig i safonau, er mwyn eu helpu nhw i gydymffurfio â nhw, yn swyddogaeth bwysig. Ac rydw i'n credu bod hynny'n ymwneud, yn anad dim, â steil rheoleiddio. Achos mae rheoleiddwyr da yn gwneud y ddau beth—maen nhw'n gosod arfer gorau, maen nhw'n helpu drwy gynnig hyfforddiant neu seminarau neu beth bynnag, fel bod cydymffurfiaeth yn gallu digwydd.

Edrychom ni, er enghraifft, ar y gwahanol gomisiynau hawliau cyfartal sydd wedi cael eu creu dros y blynyddoedd. Mi oedd y ddau beth yn mynd law yn llaw. Mi oedden nhw'n helpu ac yn rheoleiddio. Ac rydw i'n credu, unwaith eto, fod angen cyfle i'r comisiynydd gael gwneud y gwaith. Mae'n eglur bod yna ddisgẃrs yn digwydd rhwng y comisiynydd a'r rhai sy'n cael eu rheoleiddio, ac mi oedd hyn yn un o gryfderau eto, os caf i ddweud, Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, a sut roedden nhw'n mynd o gwmpas pethau. Ac mae modd cynnal y berthynas hyd braich yma, ond ar yr un pryd fod yn gyfaill beirniadol o sut mae mynd ati. Ac rydw i'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig nad ydym yn drysu rhwng y gwaith hwyluso yna a'r gwaith hybu arall. Rydw i'n credu mai un o'r pethau y mae'r Papur Gwyn yma wedi bod yn groyw iawn yn ei gylch, yn tynnu allan y gwahaniaeth yma.

Well, yes, but I would emphasise, as you have done, the importance of education. I would argue that there is a need, if you are talking about this, to legislate on the right to Welsh-medium education, and that would then ensure the kind of prioritisation that Huw and Elin have been outlining within Government, because it is something that would have to be delivered, and it would also ensure prioritisation, and the enabling of central Government to prioritise, to enable local government to deliver. Local government in a number of areas of Wales is doing excellent work, despite austerity, in order to respond to the increasing demand for Welsh-medium education. But it's clear that they are a long way behind when you look at the figures. We have to look at education, I think, almost in a box—not entirely separate, but in a separate box to the rest of these discussions.

I think there's one other aspect that I don't think we've touched upon, and I think it's important that we do, namely that we recognise something that's in the White Paper, and it also arose from the commissioner's evidence, and it's an important, valuable point that needs to be made, which is that there's a difference between promoting on the one hand and facilitation on the other. So, it's the difference between 'promote' and 'facilitate'. Okay? Whatever you say about promotion in relation to language planning and so on and so forth, this question of facilitating or enabling those who are subject to standards, in order to help them to comply with those standards, is an important function. And I think that that relates, more than anything, to the regulatory style. Because good regulators do both things—they put best practice in place, they help with training or seminars or whatever else, so that compliance can happen.

We looked, for example, at the various commissions dealing with equalities  that have been created over the years. Those two things went hand in hand. They provided support and assistance as well as regulation. And I think, again, we need to give the commissioner an opportunity to do this work. It's clear that there is a discourse between the commissioner and those who are regulated, and this was one of the strengths, if I may say so, of the Welsh Language Board, in terms of their approach. And you can maintain that arm's-length relationship whilst still being a critical friend. And I do think it's important that we don't confuse that difference between promotion and facilitation. I think that's one of the things that this White Paper has been very clear about, in drawing out that distinction.

10:35

The Welsh Language Commissioner, in her evidence, was pretty clear that this is the sort of work she's doing, so why do we need new legislation? Do we really need new legislation to get some local authorities to echo best practice going on in other local authorities?

Na, ddim o gwbl.

No, not at all.

Not at all.

Na, mae'n ymwneud â steil rheoleiddio. Mae'n ymwneud â sut rydych chi'n gweithredu fel rheoleiddiwr. Ac mae'n rhaid inni gofio, bydd o ddim ond wedi bod yn gweithredu fel rheoleiddiwr wyneb yn wyneb ers cwta flwyddyn, dwy flynedd efallai—hynny yw, nid yw'r amser wedi bod yna er mwyn inni allu gweld hyn yn dwyn ffrwyth.

No, it's about the regulatory style. It's about how you operate as a regulator. And we must bear in mind that commissioner has only been working as a face-to-face regulator for two years, perhaps—that is, we simply haven't had the time to see this bearing fruit.

Y cwestiwn oedd: 'Beth oeddem ni'n ei weld yn gadarnhaol yn dod allan o'r Papur Gwyn?' Ac roeddwn i'n credu bod y pwyslais ar y ffrwd yma, sydd efallai wedi cael ei anwybyddu yng nghyd-destun y drafodaeth, yn bwyslais pwysig, ac mae hynny'n un o'r pethau gwerthfawr ynglŷn â'r Papur Gwyn yma.  

The question is: 'What did I see coming out of the White Paper as being positive?' And I thought that that emphasis on this stream of activity, which has, perhaps, been ignored in the context of this debate, is an important emphasis, and that's one of the valuable things about this White Paper.

So, do you share the concerns that Huw Lewis and Elin Royles have, which is that this proposal for new legislation has the danger of a loss of momentum in the good work that's already going on?

Mae'n bosibl. Y broblem yw, nid ydym wedi gweld drafft eto o Ddeddf, felly mae'r hyn sy'n cael ei gynnig yn dal i fod ar lefel uchel o gyffredinedd o ran beth yw e, ac rydw i'n credu bod modd cyflawni llawer o'r pethau da yma, fel gwnes i grybwyll gynnau, oddi mewn i'r Mesur presennol gyda rhai diwygiadau.

Rydw i yn credu bod angen diwygiadau sylfaenol i'r Mesur presennol, oherwydd bod cyd-destun cefndirol pwerau deddfu'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi llamu ymlaen ers 2011. Mae gallu'r Cynulliad i ddeddfu am y Gymraeg—nid yw hi bellach wedi'i chaethiwo gan yr LCO, ac, a dweud y gwir, un o'r ychydig feysydd lle mae yna fwy o bŵer i ddeddfu yn sgil Deddf 2017 yw ym mater y Gymraeg, lle mae modd i'r Cynulliad ddeddfu mewn perthynas â'r Gymraeg, hyd yn oed mewn meysydd sydd wedi'u cadw'n ôl, meysydd sydd y tu allan i'w phŵer hi, sydd yn rym eithriadol o gryf. Felly, nawr, byddai modd i'r Cynulliad, er enghraifft—ddeddfu i osod safonau ar fanciau heb fynd yn ôl i San Steffan i ofyn am yr hawl i wneud hynny. 

That's a possibility. The problem is, we haven't yet seen a draft Bill, so what's proposed is still at a very high level in terms of what it is, and I think that a great many of these positives could be delivered, as I mentioned earlier, within the current Measure with certain changes.

I do think that fundamental amendments to the current Measure are required, because the background context in terms of the legislative powers of the Assembly have made huge strides forward since 2011. The ability of the Assembly to legislate on the Welsh language is no longer restricted by the legislative competence Order process, and, indeed, one of the few areas where there are greater power to legislate as a result of the 2017 Wales Act is on the issue of the Welsh language, where the Assembly can legislate in relation to the Welsh language, even in areas that are reserved, areas that are outwith its competence, which is a very powerful implement. So, the Assembly could now legislate to impose standards on the banking sector without having to seek the consent of Westminster to do that.

10:40

A ydych chi o'r farn bod modd gwneud hynny heb ddiwygio'r Ddeddf?

Are you of the opinion that it's possible to do that without amending the legislation?

Mae'n rhaid diwygio.

You would have to amend the legislation.

Mae angen diwygio'r Ddeddf i gymryd ystyriaeth o'r cyd-destun yma. Mae angen llacio rhywfaint ar y rhwymau a'r rhwystrau sydd oddi mewn i'r Mesur, ac oherwydd bod y Mesur yn seiliedig ar yr LCO, mae yna gwestiynau cymhleth yn codi: i ba raddau mae modd diwygio'r Mesur—rydw i'n credu bod modd gwneud, diwygio'r Mesur—y tu allan i ffiniau'r LCO? Rydw i'n siŵr bod yna fodd gwneud hynny. Ond nid wyf i eisiau mynd am ryw ysgwarnogod cyfreithlyd, felly, ond—

You would have to amend the legislation in order to take account of this new context. There is a need to relax the restrictions within the Measure, and because the Measure is based on the LCO, there are complex questions arising as to what extent it's possible to amend the Measure. I think it could be done, but to what extent can that be done outwith the bounds of the LCO? I don't want to pursue any red herrings here, but—

Ond mae hynny'n bwysig, achos mae yna dipyn bach o amwysedd ynglŷn â ydy hi'n briodol i wneud hynny, neu ddim yn briodol. A ydy'r hawl yna, mewn ffordd, o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol i ddod â deddfwriaeth a fyddai'n effeithio ar y sector breifat? Rydych chi'n grediniol bod modd gwneud. 

But that is important, because there has been a great deal of ambiguity about whether it's appropriate to do that or not—whether the right is there within the current legislation to bring forward legislation that would affect the private sector. You believe that that is possible.

Rydw i'n credu bod modd gwneud hyn. Mae'r cwestiwn, 'A ydy o'n briodol?' yn gwestiwn gwahanol. 

I think that's possible. The question of whether it's appropriate is another question.

A ydy o'n bosib? Rydw i'n meddwl ei fod o. 

Is it possible? Yes, I think it is.

So, can I just check—? So, this would be similar, or analogous, then, to a consolidation measure. You'd be actually preserving a lot of what was in 2011, but you'd be restating, or re-establishing the jurisdiction of the Assembly in wider areas, and just making that clear and not having all the bells and whistles that the LCO system required. 

Fyddech chi ddim—

You wouldn't—

It's a kind of middle way here, isn't it? It's not like repealing 2011. It's kind of building on it.

Ie. Diwygio fuaswn i'n ei ddweud. Yn fy mreuddwydion, rydych chi'n dechrau eto; rydych chi'n creu Deddf llawer mwy hylaw, syml a thryloyw. Ond, o dderbyn nad fy mreuddwydion i sydd yn llywodraethu yng Nghymru—hyd yn hyn, beth bynnag—mae'n rhaid i ni dderbyn wedyn mai—

Yes, I'd say it was amending. If I were to dream, you would start again with a clean slate and create far simpler, more transparent legislation. But I accept that my dreams hold no sway on the governance of Wales—not as yet, anyway—and, therefore, we have to accept—

Diolch yn fawr. [Chwerthin.]

Thank you very much. [Laughter.]

Na, na, mae breuddwydion pobl eraill llawer mwy gwerthfawr. Ond mi fuasai diwygio y Mesur, neu wneud rhai diwygiadau, er mwyn symleiddio, cwtogi a hwyluso rhywfaint law yn llaw â rhywbeth sydd yn mynd i'r afael o ddifrif ag addysg ac o ddifrif â'r materion hybu eraill yn beth gwerthfawr tu hwnt. Nid oes raid deddfu ar gyfer y pethau yma i gyd, ond gyda rhai ohonyn nhw mae angen. 

No, no, other people's dreams are far more valuable than mine. Reforming or amending the Measure in order to simplify and make things more easily facilitated along with something that would properly get to grips with education and the other promotion activities would be very valuable. You don't need to legislate for all of these things, but for some of them you do.

I really want to touch on goodwill. You mentioned hostility in some parts, in what you yourselves refer to as both complex and complicated—a 122 Welsh language standards under the Measure. So, do you have, then, any potential ideas, concerns or sympathy with the majority of the English-speaking areas, who may need more carrot than stick to engage that essential goodwill, where, in a sense, the intensity of where we're at now may have negated in some parts, especially in those areas that are facing phenomenal financial constraints in local government, across the public sector, on an unprecedented scale? I mean, do you have any comment around that statement? 

Buaswn i'n dechrau drwy ddweud—a Huw sydd wedi bod yn gweithio ar hyn yn fwy na fi—mai rhan o'r broses o gael strategaethau iaith yng Nghymru ydy ailfeddwl sut rydym ni'n deall bodolaeth a'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg yng Nghymru heddiw, yn yr ystyr nad wyf i'n meddwl ei bod hi'n gwneud llawer o synnwyr erbyn hyn i siarad am ardaloedd mwy Seisnig neu Gymreig, achos mae'r dwysedd o siaradwyr gennym ni mewn rhai ardaloedd ac mae'r niferodd gennym ni yn yr ardaloedd sydd ddim yn siarad—y mae cyfeirio atynt fel ardaloedd Seisnig. Felly, mae'n mapiau ni angen eu hailfeddwl yn gyfan gwbl, a dyna beth mae rhan o strategaeth 2050 yn trio gwneud, sef trio newid y math yma o ddelwedd. Allwn ni ddim mynd cymaint ar sail ble mae dwysedd y siaradwyr erbyn hyn os ydym ni'n gwneud y Gymraeg yn iaith swyddogol yng Nghymru gyfan ac os ydym ni eisiau i wasanaethau gael eu darparu. So, buaswn i'n dechrau fan yna, sydd, efallai, yn bwynt ychydig bach yn wahanol i beth roeddech chi'n disgwyl, ond nid wyf i'n meddwl bod gwahaniaethu'n fewnol mor syml ag yr oedd yn arfer bod ac mae angen i ni addasu i feddwl hynny.

I would start by saying—and Huw has been working on this more than I have—that part of the process of having a language strategy in Wales is rethinking how we understand the existence and use of the Welsh language in Wales today, in the sense that I don't think it makes a great deal of sense to talk about more English-speaking or Welsh-speaking areas, because we have the density of Welsh speakers in certain areas and we do have numbers of Welsh speakers in areas that are referred to as English-speaking areas. So, our maps need to be redrawn entirely, and I think that's what the 2050 strategy does in part, namely to try to change this kind of image. We can't work on the basis of where the density of speakers is if we are to make the Welsh language an official language throughout Wales and if we want services to be provided through the medium of Welsh. So, I would start from that point, which is perhaps a slightly different point to the one that you were expecting, but I don't think that internal differentiation is as simple as it used to be and we need to adapt to that way of thinking.

10:45

But outside of your subjective view of my question, the question still remains in terms of that issue around goodwill, because we've all acknowledged the steps forward in terms of Welsh language progression, which the strategy is aiming to deliver on. So, is there any potential that that goodwill can be negated? And how do we promote that?

Wel, rwy'n meddwl, yn y pen draw—. Rwy'n meddwl bod y drafodaeth ynglŷn ag ewyllys da tuag at y Gymraeg yn drafodaeth mae rhywun yn mynd o'i chwmpas drwy'r amser. Rwy'n meddwl, yn rhywle, os yw'r Llywodraeth wedi penderfynu y bydd hi'n deddfu i ddweud bod y Gymraeg yn iaith swyddogol a bydd yna statws o ran darpariaethau cyhoeddus yn deillio o hynny, rhywle yn y drafodaeth mae angen i'r Llywodraeth, felly, ddweud, 'Wel, drwy'r ddeddfwriaeth yma rŷm ni'n dweud bod rhai pethau mae pobl fel dinasyddion yn gallu eu disgwyl fel mater o gyfraith.' Felly, rhywle yn y drafodaeth, yn yr un modd ag yr ŷm ni'n ei wneud mewn meysydd cydraddoldeb eraill, mae'n rhaid i'r syniad bod darparu'r pethau yma jest yn dibynnu ar ewyllys da stopio a derbyn, 'Wel, rŷm ni wedi deddfu i ddweud bod y pethau yma yno fel mater o sut yr ŷm ni'n dehongli cydraddoldeb civic yng Nghymru.' Ond y tu hwnt i hynny mae cwestiynau ymarferol.

Mae daearyddiaeth y Gymraeg yn newid, ydy, ond mae e'n wir ein bod ni'n mynd i fod mewn sefyllfa lle y bydd cwrdd â rhai gofynion yn haws mewn rhai sectorau neu rai cyd-destunau daearyddol o'u cymharu ag eraill. Ond, nid yw e ein bod ni'n stopio rheoleiddio; mae modd i reoleiddiwr soffistigedig, fel oedd Emyr yn sôn, weithio mewn ffyrdd gwahanol gyda darparwyr gwahanol. Nid yw'n golygu bod rhywun yn stopio gosod dyletswyddau ar gyrff a jest yn gwneud popeth yn wirfoddol; mae'n golygu eich bod chi'n gweithio ar amserlenni gwahanol yn ôl beth yw'r adnoddau ar y pryd—yr adnoddau dynol a'r adnoddau sydd ar gael.

Ond, os ydych chi'n mynd nôl i'r ymgynghoriad—mae hyn yn mynd nôl dipyn—a wnaeth y Llywodraeth i fwydo mewn i baratoi'r Papur Gwyn—mae'n bapur a gafodd ei gyhoeddi ychydig fisoedd cyn cyhoeddi'r Papur Gwyn—a fanna rŷch chi'n gweld, yn y dystiolaeth a oedd yn dod o'r sector gyhoeddus yn bwydo mewn, ryw gamddealltwriaeth lle mae lot o'r dystiolaeth o'r sector gyhoeddus fanna yn dweud, 'O, rŷm ni eisiau mynd nôl i system Deddf 1993, lle oedd dim rheoleiddio, lle roeddem ni'n cael ein hybu.' Ond mewn gwirionedd beth oedd gennych chi oedd rheoleiddio, ond jest rheoleiddio a oedd o dan drefniadau deddfwriaeth mwy ysgafn, mwy meddal. So, nid yw e ein bod ni'n stopio rheoleiddio; mae e jest eich bod chi'n gorfod gweithio gyda'r sefyllfa fel y mae hi.

Ond i fynd yn ôl i'r pwynt roeddwn i'n ei wneud, oherwydd bod datganiad o ran statws swyddogol, mae yna baseline lle rŷm ni'n dweud bod yn rhaid i rai o'r pethau yma gael eu darparu.

Well, I think, ultimately—. I think the discussion on goodwill towards the Welsh language is a discussion that one hears time and again. I think, at some point, if the Government decides that it will legislate and say that the Welsh language is an official language and that status in terms of public provision will emerge from that, at some point during that discussion the Government has to say, 'Well, through this legislation we are saying that there are certain things that citizens should be able to expect as a matter of law.' Therefore, somewhere in that discourse, as we do in other areas of equality, this concept that the provision of these things relies on goodwill has to stop and we have to say, 'Well, we've legislated to say that these things are available as a matter of how we interpret civic equality in Wales.' But beyond that you have practical questions.

The geography of the Welsh language is shifting, yes, but it's true that we will be in a situation where meeting certain requirements will be easier in certain sectors or certain geographical contexts as compared to others. It's not that we stop regulating in those circumstances; it is possible for a sophisticated regulator, as Emyr mentioned, to work in different ways with different providers. It doesn't mean that one stops imposing duties on organisations and relies on an entirely voluntary approach; it means that you work to different timetables according to the resources available at the time—the human resources and other resources.

But if you go back to the consultation—and this goes back a long way—carried out by Government to feed into the preparation for the White Paper—it was a paper published a few months before the White Paper—and there you can see, in the evidence emerging from the public sector, a misunderstanding where much of the evidence from the public sector there says, 'Well, we want to go back to the system under the 1993 Act, where there was no regulation, there was only promotion.' But what you had was regulation, but regulation that was under a more light-touch legal approach. It's not that we're stopping regulation; it just means that you have to work according to the circumstances that exist.

But to go back to the point that I was making, because there is a declaration in terms of official status, there is a baseline where we say that some of these things do have to be provided.

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr. Rwy'n symud at Caroline Jones a chwestiynau—. Rŷm ni wedi cyffwrdd â rhai o'r rhain yn barod, ond rwy'n siŵr bod gennych chi fwy i'w ddweud ynglŷn â'r safbwynt rhyngwladol. 

Right. Thank you very much. We'll move on now to Caroline Jones. We've touched on some of these issues already, but I'm sure that you'll have more to say with regard to the international perspective.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. The centre's evidence notes that there was insufficient time allowed for detailed analysis of language planning for minority languages in other countries. But, on the information that we do have, could you tell me what lessons can be learnt from other countries? And, are there specific approaches to planning and legislation that we can adopt in Wales? I know that Elin has touched on governmental intervention and planning and so forth, in a positive way, but I'd like some more information, please, on what you feel we can take from other countries in a positive way.

Rwy'n meddwl bod Pwyll—. Nid Pwyll—iesgob. Rwy'n meddwl bod Huw wedi tynnu sylw—[Chwerthin.] Fy mab i yw Pwyll.

Mae Huw wedi tynnu sylw at y bylchau sydd gennym ni mewn dealltwriaeth ynghylch cymharu strwythurau llywodraethiant polisi iaith mewn cyd-destunau gwahanol, a beth ydy cryfderau neu wendidau y strwythurau hynny. Rwy'n meddwl bod hynny'n wendid cyffredinol yn ehangach yn y llenyddiaeth hefyd. Felly, nid yw'n fater sy'n ein wynebu ni yng Nghymru yn unig, efallai, ond mae angen mwy o waith yn benodol yn fanna i ymateb i'r math o gwestiwn rŷch chi'n ei holi. Rwy'n meddwl beth rŷm ni'n ei weld yn gyffredinol ydy, os yw'r trefniadau deddfwriaethol yn fwy gwan neu ddim yn bodoli yna mae ymyrraeth wleidyddol yn dod yn fwy amlwg yn y broses felly, a dyna beth oedd gennym ni yn aml iawn o dan Ddeddf 1993. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl beth yr ydym ni'n gallu gweld ydy—mae yna risks i ni ein hunain o fynd i'r math yna o sefyllfa, rydw i'n meddwl, hefyd, ac mae angen trio'r trefniadau yma.

A gwnaf i hefyd ategu'r pwynt a wnes i yn gynt, sef, weithiau, mae nifer yr esiamplau y gallwn ni dynnu arnyn nhw yn rhyngwladol yn eithaf cyfyngedig, oherwydd ein bod ni eisoes yn un o'r arloeswyr mewn cynllunio iaith ac nid ydym ni'n cydnabod hynny'n ddigonol. Ac nid ydym ni efallai, ar y pwynt yna, yn herio ein hunain yn ddigonol i drio gweithredu beth sydd gennym ni mewn lle. Rydym ni wedi gweld mewn esiamplau fel Iwerddon eu bod nhw, mewn ffordd, wedi tynnu'n ôl o'r trefniadau sydd ganddyn nhw yna; rydym ni'n gweld diffygion yng Nghatalonia ac yn y blaen. Fy nheimlad i ydy bod yna le i ni fan hyn wneud bach mwy o sefyll ar ein traed ein hunain a thrio gweld sut gallwn ni wthio'r trefniadau sydd gennym ni mewn lle ar hyn o bryd.

I think that Pwyll—. Not Pwyll—crikey. I think that Huw has already drawn attention—[Laughter.] Pwyll is my son.

I think Huw has drawn attention to the gaps that we have in understanding with regard to comparing language policy governance structures in different contexts, and what the weaknesses and strengths of those structures are. I think that that's a general weakness in the literature. So, it's not a matter that's just facing us in Wales, but more work is needed specifically in that regard to respond the kind of question that you're asking. But I think what we see generally is that if the legislative arrangements are weaker or don't exist, then political intervention becomes clearer in the process, and that's what we used to have under the 1993 Act. So, I think what we can see is that there are risks for us in pursuing that kind of situation, and that we need to trial these arrangements.

To reinforce a point I made earlier, the number of examples that we can draw on internationally are quite restricted, because we are already in the vanguard in language planning and we don't acknowledge that sufficiently. And, on this point, we're perhaps not challenging ourselves enough to try to implement what we already have in place. We've seen in examples such as Ireland that they have rowed back on the arrangements that they have there; we see deficiencies in Catalonia, and so on. My feeling is that there is room for us to stand on our own two feet a little bit more and see how we can push the arrangements that we already have in place.

10:50

Rydym ni'n clywed yn aml am Wlad y Basg, a bod Gwlad y Basg yn arwain y ffordd, a bod yr iaith Fasgeg wedi symud ymlaen o ran nifer y siaradwyr. A oes gennych chi ymchwil ar hynny?

We often hear about the Basque Country, and that the Basque Country is in the vanguard, and that the Basque language has made progress in terms of the number of speakers. Do you have any research on that?

Nid ni yn bersonol; rydym ni'n adnabod rhywun sy'n gwneud, ond nid ni ein hunain, a dweud y gwir. Ond beth sydd gennych chi yn y model yna, o beth rydw i'n ei ddeall, ydy bod gyriant wedi dod o'r Llywodraeth, bod yna uned iaith o fewn y Llywodraeth sydd wedi'i yrru, a bod yr un person wedi arwain yr uned yna dros gyfnod hir. Felly, mae gennych chi'r cyd-destun o ymrwymiad gwleidyddol, canoli'r grym o fewn y Llywodraeth, ac olyniaeth yr agenda hirdymor. Mae gennym ni lawer o'r nodweddion yna mewn lle ar hyn o bryd—efallai fod angen ychydig bach mwy o ddycnwch inni symud pethau i'r un math o gyfeiriad.

Not us personally; we do know someone who does work in this field, but we don't ourselves. But what you do have in that model, as I understand it, is that there has been that driver from Government, that there is a language unit within the Government that has driven this, and that the same person has led that unit over a long period of time. So, you have that context of political commitment, power centralised within Government, and that continuity of a long-term agenda. We have several of those characteristics in place at the moment, so perhaps we need a bit more resilience in moving towards the same direction.

I ategu'r pwyntiau yr oedd Elin yn eu gwneud o ran yr astudio cymharol sydd ar gael, mae yna fylchau amlwg o ran y llenyddiaeth academaidd sydd â lle i'w llenwi. O ran rhai pethau sydd yn dod yn amlwg, yn ychwanegol at beth oedd Elin yn ei ddweud, mae'r pwynt o ymrwymiad gwleidyddol—nid oes dim osgoi hwnnw. Gall rhywun drafod strwythurau technegol yn fanwl iawn, ond, ym mhob achos, mae rhywun yn gweld pa mor bwysig mae lefel yr ymrwymiad gwleidyddol yn gallu bod o'r top o ran atal cynnydd neu'n prysuro cynnydd. Ac mae astudiaeth arbennig gan yr Athro Colin Williams o Brifysgol Caerdydd yn cymharu rhai o'r strategaethau iaith swyddogol sydd wedi bod ar waith ar draws Ewrop. Mae e'n gyhoeddiad o, rydw i'n meddwl, ryw 10 mlynedd yn ôl bellach, so nid yw e'n cynnwys rhai o'r datblygiadau mwyaf diweddar yng Nghymru, ond un o'r pethau sydd yn dod allan o'r darn yna o waith yw pa mor arwyddocaol y mae rhai unigolion allweddol yn gallu bod pan fyddan nhw mewn swydd benodol am gyfnod hir, a bod y dilyniant tymor hir yna yn gallu bod yn bwysig iawn o ran caniatáu i strategaethau wreiddio a chael eu gweithredu—bod y dilyniant yna'n bwysig. Mae'r rheini'n rhai pethau amlwg sydd yn dod allan o'r hynny o gymharu sydd i'w gael ar hyn o bryd.

To echo the points Elin made in terms of the comparative studies available, there are obvious gaps in the academic literature that need to be filled. In terms of some of the things that are becoming apparent, in addition to what Elin said, the point of political commitment—there is no getting around that. One can discuss technical structures in very great detail, but, in every case, one sees just how important that level of political commitment can be from the top in terms of preventing progress or hastening progress. There's a particular study by Professor Colin Williams from Cardiff University comparing some of the official language strategies that have been in place across Europe. I think it's a publication from around a decade ago, so it doesn't include some of the more recent developments in Wales, but one of the things that does emerge from that piece of work is how significant a role certain individuals have when they are in a particular post for a long period of time, and that that continuity can be very important in terms of allowing strategies to take root and to be properly implemented—that the continuity is important. Those are some of the things that emerged from the comparisons that have been done.

A Chanada—a ydych chi'n gwybod unrhywbeth am y sefyllfa fanna?

And Canada—do you know anything about the situation there?

Wel, rhan o'r broblem pan fydd rhywun yn sôn am Ganada, a'r cwestiwn wedyn, yw: pa ran o Ganada a pha fodel yn benodol? Achos, mewn gwirionedd, beth sydd gan rywun yw clytwaith o wahanol fathau o fodelau. Rydych chi'n mynd o'r model yn Quebec, sydd, i bob pwrpas, yn fodel tiriogaethol unieithog o hyrwyddo'r Ffrangeg fel yr iaith gyhoeddus—. Mae gennych chi y model ffederal, sydd yn fodel o ddwyieithrwydd swyddogol ar draws sefydliadau ffederal Canada; wedyn, mae yna glytwaith o fodelau gwahanol gan nifer o'r taleithiau eraill. Beth sydd efallai'n ddiddorol am rai o'r modelau yng Nghanada—mae'n mynd nôl i rai o'r pwyntiau gwreiddiol yna yr oeddem ni'n eu gwneud—yw eu bod yn ein hatgoffa ni ei bod hi'n bosib—. Rydym ni yng Nghymru â model o ymwneud â'r Gymraeg lle rydym ni'n ceisio creu'r cyfleoedd swyddogol mewn peuoedd swyddogol i bobl ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg a wedyn yr hyrwyddo ehangach yna. Mae rhai o'r modelau taleithiol yng Nghanada yn canolbwyntio jest ar y darparu swyddogol yn y bôn. Nid yw'r adeiladwaith cynllunio ehangach yna ddim wir yn rhan o'u trafodaeth nhw, achos bod y drafodaeth yn sôn am y ddwy gymuned iaith swyddogol a'n bod ni'n sôn am ddwy gymuned sydd, i bob pwrpas, yn ieithoedd mwyafrifol yn eu hunain. So, nid yw'r deinamig yna o gynllunio iaith cymunedol, hyrwyddo, mynediad at addysg ac yn y blaen, a throsglwyddo'r iaith, sy'n rhan fawr o'n trafodaeth ni, wir yn rhan o'r drafodaeth yng Nghanada.

Well, part of the problem when one talks of Canada, or the question, is: what parts of Canada, and what model specifically? Because what one has is a patchwork of various models. You move from the Quebec model, which, to all intents and purposes, is a monolingual territorial system that promotes French as the public language—. You have the federal model, which is a model of official bilingualism across the federal institutions of Canada; then you have a patchwork of other models across other states. What is perhaps interesting about some of the models in Canada—and it goes back to some of the original points that we made—is that they remind us that it's possible—. We in Wales have a model in relation to the Welsh language where we're trying to create official opportunities in official domains for people to use the Welsh language and then providing that broader promotion. Some of state models in Canada focus just on the official provision. That broader planning isn't really part of the discourse, because it simply focuses on the two official language communities, and we are talking about two communities that are majority languages in and of themselves. So, that dynamic of the community language planning, promoting, access to education and so on, and language transfer, which is a large part of our discussion, isn't truly part of the debate in Canada. 

10:55

Efallai y byddwch chi'n hoffi gwahodd yr Athro Rob Dunbar o Brifysgol Caeredin i siarad efo chi, achos mae o'n gwneud project penodol ar hyn o bryd ar ddeddfwriaeth iaith, a modelau cymharol—efallai eich bod chi eisoes wedi ystyried hynny.

Perhaps you'd like to invite Professor Rob Dunbar of Edinburgh University to speak to you, because he's doing a specific project on language legislation and comparative models—perhaps you've already considered doing that.

Mae o'n Ganadiad yn ogystal â rhywun sy'n siaradwr Gaeleg a Chymraeg. Rydw i'n credu bod yna beryg inni wylio am waredigaeth y tu hwnt i ffiniau Cymru. Rydym ni'n rhy barod i wneud hynny weithiau, rwy'n credu, yn hytrach nag edrych ar ein cryfder ein hunain, ac efallai ei bod hi'n rhan o'n hetifeddiaeth ni fel pobl sydd â diffyg hyder yn ein gallu ni i reoli ein hunain. Un peth rydw i'n credu sydd efallai yn wireb, ond sy'n werth ei ddweud serch hynny, yw nid oes dim modd gwneud cymhariaeth un am un o sefyllfa unrhyw iaith leiafrifol yn erbyn unrhyw un arall. Mae'r amgylchiadau gwleidyddol, llywodraethiant, cymdeithasol-economaidd mor wahanol i'w gilydd fel ei bod hi'n anodd iawn i wneud cymariaethau.

Mae'r Fasgeg yn cael ei chymharu â'r Gymraeg oherwydd nifer y siaradwyr, proffil socioeconomaidd yr ieithoedd, y ffaith eu bod nhw'n ieithoedd sydd ddim byd tebyg i'w prif iaith gyswllt nhw. Ond mae hanes diweddar Gwlad y Basg a'r gorthrwm y maen nhw wedi dioddef yno yn gyfan gwbl wahanol i hanes diweddar y Gymraeg. Er gwaethaf y ffaith ein bod ni'n teimlo fel rydym ni wedi bod dan orthrwm, nid ydy'r hyn a ddioddefan nhw dan Franco dim byd tebyg i beth rydym ni wedi'i ddioddef.

Felly, rydw i'n credu ei bod hi'n anodd iawn, iawn ichi dynnu cymariaethau rhy agos. Bues i'n gweithio am 12 mlynedd fel aelod o banel arbenigwyr Cyngor Ewrop ar siartr yr ieithoedd lleiafrifol, ac un peth a ddysgais i oedd bod yna amrywiaeth ryfeddol, nid yn unig yn sefyllfaoedd ieithoedd, ond hefyd yn agweddau Llywodraethau tuag at y cwestiwn o sut i ddelio ag ieithoedd lleiafrifol. Mi oedd rhai Llywodraethau yn cymryd hwn fel mater o'r pwys mwyaf—er enghraifft, Llywodraeth Sweden, yn ei hagwedd tuag at y Ffinneg a'r Sami. Mi oedd Llywodraethau eraill yn gweld hwn fel niwsans, ac felly mae'n anodd iawn, iawn, iawn, rydw i'n credu, inni gyffredinoli.

He's a Canadian, as well as speaking Gaelic and Welsh. I think we are at risk of seeking salvation outwith our own borders. We're too willing to do that on occasion rather than looking at our own strengths, and perhaps it's part of our legacy as people who have a lack of confidence in governing ourselves. I think one thing that perhaps is a truism, but deserves to be said, is that it's impossible to make direct comparisons of any minority language against another. The political circumstances, the economic, social and governance structures, are so very different that it's very difficult to make those meaningful comparisons.

The Basque language is compared to the Welsh language because of the number of speakers, the socioeconomic profile of the Welsh language and the Basque language, and the fact that they are languages that are not similar to their main contact language, or neighbouring language. But the recent history of the Basque Country and the oppression that they have suffered is very different to the recent history of the Welsh language. Although we feel that we have been oppressed, what they suffered under Franco is nothing like what's been experienced here.

So, I think it's very difficult for you to draw close comparisons. I worked for 12 years as a member of the European Council expert panel on the charter for minority languages, and one thing I learned was that there is great diversity not only in the situation of languages, but also in the attitudes of Governments in how to deal with minority languages. There were some Governments who placed huge importance on this—the Swedish Government, for example, in their attitude towards Sami and Finnish—and other Governments saw it as an absolute nuisance. Therefore, it's very difficult, I think, for us to generalise on this point.

Iawn. Wel, diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae'n braf gwybod ein bod ni yn arwain o ran cynlluniau ieithyddol, a hir y parhaed hynny, a gobeithio y bydd yna fwy o adnoddau, mwy o bwyslais, yn gallu cael eu rhoi ar y maes yna, sy'n sicr yn bwysig inni.

Dyna ni wedi diwedd y sesiwn yma. Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r tri ohonoch chi am gyfrannu y bore yma. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Okay. Well, thank you very much. It's good to know that we are in the vanguard in terms of linguistic planning, and long may that continue. Hopefully, there'll be more emphasis and resources given to this area, which is certainly very important to us.

We have now reached the end of the session. Thank you very much to the three of you for contributing this morning. Thank you.

4. Papurau i’w nodi
4. Papers to note

Symudwn ni ymlaen, felly, at eitem 4, sef y papurau i'w nodi. Gwnaf ofyn ichi nodi papur 4.1, cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg, sydd yn cyflwyno rhagor o dystiolaeth gan Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg. A oes yna unrhyw un efo sylw ar hwnnw? Mi oedd gennyf jest sylw byr: mae'r papur yna yn dangos pa safonau sydd wedi cael eu cyflwyno erbyn hyn. Byddai fo'n ddefnyddiol i'r pwyllgor, rydw i'n meddwl, gael gweld pa safonau sydd ddim wedi cael eu cyflwyno er bod yr ymchwiliadau a'r gwaith cychwynnol wedi cael eu cyflwyno i'r Llywodraeth. Mae yna nifer o feysydd—dŵr, trenau, cymdeithasau tai—lle mae'r gwaith cychwynnol wedi'i wneud, ond nid ydyn nhw, am ryw reswm, wedi gweld golau dydd eto. Felly, efallai y byddai fo'n ddefnyddiol gofyn i'r comisiynydd am wybodaeth am y rheini hefyd. Rydw i'n credu y byddai fo'n ddefnyddiol i'r pwyllgor.

Symud i bapur i'w nodi 4.2, ariannu addysg cerddoriaeth a gwella mynediad ati—sylwadau ar ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru ydy hwnnw; 4.3, ariannu addysg cerddoriaeth a gwella mynediad, llythyr at y Cadeirydd gan Making Music; ac wedyn, ar yr un un pwnc, llythyr at y Cadeirydd oddi wrth Gerddoriaeth Ieuenctid De Powys.

We'll move on, therefore, to item 4, namely the papers to note. I'll ask you to note paper 4.1, supporting and promoting the Welsh language, which provides further information from the Welsh Language Commissioner. Does anyone have any comments on that? I just had a brief comment. That paper does demonstrate what standards have been introduced to date. I think it would be useful for the committee to see what standards haven't yet been introduced, even though the inquiries and the initial work have been done and presented to the Government. There are several areas, with regard to water, trains and housing associations, where that initial work has been done but they haven't, for some reason, seen the light of day yet. So, perhaps it would be useful to ask the commissioner for information about those, too. I think that would be useful for the committee.

Moving, then, to paper to note 4.2, funding for and access to music education, we have comments on the Welsh Government's response; 4.3, funding for and access to music education again, and a letter to the Chair from Making Music; and then, on the same subject, a letter to the Chair from South Powys Youth Music.

In regard to noting this first letter, which is signed by, as you can see, very distinguished chairs or CEOs of major organisations, what will be our response back to them in regard to the urgency in suggesting that this feasibility study is rolled out ASAP because of the fragility of our support services across Wales? Do we intend to respond to those points?

11:00

Efallai medrwn ni drafod hwn yn y cyfarfod preifat yn syth wedyn.

Perhaps we can discuss that in the private part of the meeting.

Yn sicr, mae'n bwysig ein bod ni yn ymateb yn bositif i'r sylwadau sy'n cael eu cyflwyno, rydw i'n credu. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Felly, a ydych chi'n hapus i nodi'r rheiny? Iawn.

Certainly, it is important that we do respond positively to the comments that have been made. Thank you very much for that. So, are you content to note those papers? Right.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Felly, symudwn i eitem 5, sef cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Pawb yn hapus i ni symud i gyfarfod preifat? Iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

So, moving on to item 5, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to reolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Is everyone content for us to move into private session? Yes. Thank you.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:00.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:00.

Archwilio Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru