Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Yn ôl i Chwilio

Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

20/09/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed AC Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
David Melding AC
Jenny Rathbone AC
Mick Antoniw AC
Sian Gwenllian AC

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Alun Ffred Jones Cyn-Weinidog dros Dreftadaeth
Former Minister for Heritage
Dyfan Sion Cyfarwyddwr Strategol, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
Strategic Director, Welsh Language Commissioner
Meri Huws Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
Welsh Language Commissioner

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Adam Vaughan Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Tanwen Summers Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:01.

The meeting began at 10:01.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma. Eitem 1, cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. Croeso i'r Aelodau Cynulliad. A oes gan unrhyw un rhywbeth i'w ddatgan yma heddiw. Na. Ymddiheuriadau: cafwyd ymddiheuriadau gan Neil Hamilton, ac nid oes dim dirprwyon. Croeso mawr i David Melding, sydd newydd ymuno â ni fel aelod newydd o'r pwyllgor, a diolch hefyd i Suzy Davies am ei gwaith hi fel rhan o'r pwyllgor. Rydym ni'n mynd i'w cholli hi, hefyd.

Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee this morning. Item 1, introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. May I welcome the Assembly Members? Has anybody any declaration of interest, please, today? No. There are apologies for absence from Neil Hamilton and no deputies or substitutions. May I extend a very warm welcome to David Melding, who has just joined us as a new committee member? May I also thank Suzy Davies for her work as a committee member? She will be missed.

2. Cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg - ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi ac yn ehangach: Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1
2. Supporting and promoting the Welsh Language - an inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 1

Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen, felly, at eitem 2, cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg: ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi ac yn ehangach. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i Alun Ffred Jones, cyn-Weinidog dros Dreftadaeth, am ddod mewn atom heddiw. Fe wnaethom ni benderfynu gwneud yr ymchwiliad yma gan fod yna symudiadau gan Lywodraeth Cymru i newid yr hyn sydd yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd o ran swyddfa Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, ac roeddem ni eisiau edrych ar sut yr oedd Mesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011 wedi gweithio, a beth fyddech chi'n credu oedd wedi bod yn sail i greu'r ddeddfwriaeth yn 2011. Felly, jest gofyn yn y lle cyntaf pam oeddech chi'n meddwl bod hynny'n rhywbeth a oedd yn bwysig i'w wneud, a'ch barn chi ynglŷn â'r broses ar y pryd.

Moving on, therefore, to item 2, supporting and promoting the Welsh Language: an inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context. So, may I say thank you to Alun Ffred Jones, who's a former Minister for Heritage, for attending today? We decided to carry out this inquiry as there are moves afoot in Welsh Government to amend the workings of the Welsh Language Commissioner's office, and we wanted to look at how the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 had worked, and what the basis for the creation of that Measure was. So, may I just ask initially why you thought that was an important thing to do, and your view on the process at the time?

Diolch yn fawr am y gwahoddiad, gyda llaw. Mae'n braf cael bod yn ôl—am awr. [Chwerthin.]

Thank you very much for the invitation. It's good to be back—for an hour. [Laughter.]

Croeso i chi ddod nôl eto.

You're welcome to return at any time.

Wel, Deddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993 oedd yr un mewn grym, wrth gwrs—Deddf a gafodd ei chreu gan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol yn Llundain, ac a greodd Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, a ddaru bwrdd yr iaith, wrth gwrs, ymhlith ei wahanol weithgareddau, greu cynlluniau iaith ar gyfer cyrff yng Nghymru.

Rydw i'n meddwl ei bod hi'n deg dweud bod Deddf 1993 yn gam ymlaen, a bod y cynlluniau iaith eu hunain wedi bod yn gam ymlaen, ond mi oedd yna wendidau yn y drefn. Nid oedd modd gorfodi'r cynlluniau iaith. Roedden nhw'n gynlluniau gwirfoddol rhwng corff a bwrdd yr iaith. Mi oedd pob cynllun yn unigryw. Felly, nid oedd hi'n bosibl i'r cyhoedd wybod beth oedd eu hawliau nhw heb ddarllen pob un cynllun—a oedd yn amlwg ddim yn mynd i ddigwydd. Ac o fewn sectorau, wrth gwrs, mi oedd yna wahaniaethau rhwng gwahanol gyrff er eu bod nhw'n gweithredu, efallai, yn yr un un maes.

Felly, roedd hi'n ymddangos i ni fod angen deddfu o'r newydd, a chreu pencampwr yr iaith, a dyna oedd rôl y comisiynydd. Roedd hynny ym maniffesto Plaid Cymru yn 2007, ac wedyn, pan luniwyd Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un, fe oedd o’n rhan, wedyn, o raglen waith y Llywodraeth newydd.

Mae’n debyg mai'r bwriad, felly, oedd cael cysondeb o fewn sectorau, ehangu meysydd dylanwad y Ddeddf a chreu comisiynydd, fel yr oeddwn i’n ei ddweud, fel y byddem ni’n gallu gorfodi’r safonau hynny unwaith yr oedden nhw yn eu lle—neu'r cynlluniau hynny pan fyddan nhw yn eu lle. Mae’n debyg mai'r pwrpas ehangach oedd normaleiddio’r Gymraeg—y term yna a oedd yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n aml iawn yn y degawd hwnnw—normaleiddio’r defnydd o’r Gymraeg: yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd, er enghraifft, mewn sefydliad fel hwn a’i gwneud yn rhan naturiol o weithgaredd gwahanol gyrff.

Wrth gwrs, mi oedd yna heriau ynglŷn â’r broses yma, achos ar y pryd—fel rydych chi’n cofio’n dda iawn, rhai ohonoch chi—mi oedd yn rhaid cael y pwerau i lawr o San Steffan, ac mi oedd honno’n broses anodd iawn a hirfaith iawn. Mi oedd yna wrthwynebiad. Mi oedd pobl yn awyddus i gyfyngu ar y pwerau y byddai’r Cynulliad yn eu derbyn, ac felly mi oedd yna ddadlau mawr yn San Steffan ar y pryd, ymhlith y blaid a oedd yn llywodraethu ar y pryd, ynglŷn â hynny. Roedd yna wrthwynebiad clir a chlywais i bobl yn dweud mai’r bwriad oedd arafu’r broses fel na fyddem ni ddim yn gallu deddfu yma; fyddai yna ddim amser. A dim ond cael y Ddeddf i mewn ddaru ni ar ddechrau 2011.

Mi ddylwn i ddweud, felly, mai un feirniadaeth ar y Ddeddf wrth gwrs ydy bod y broses o greu safonau’n un hirwyntog ac efallai’n gymhleth, ond y rheswm am hynny ydy bod yna lot o checks and balances o fewn y broses. Rydw i’n meddwl mai’r term yn y Ddeddf ydy bod rhaid i bopeth fod yn deg ac yn rhesymol, os ydw i’n cofio’n iawn, felly roedd hwnnw’n adlewyrchu’r pryder y byddem ni’n gosod gofynion afresymol ar gyrff yng Nghymru.

The Welsh Language Act of 1993 was the legislation in force, of course. It was legislation created by the Conservative Government in London, which created the Welsh Language Board, and the Welsh Language Board, among its various activities, created Welsh language schemes for organisations and bodies in Wales.

I do think it's fair to say that the 1993 Act was a step forward, and that the language schemes themselves had been a step forward, but there were weaknesses in that regime. There was no way of enforcing the language schemes. They were voluntary schemes, between an organisation and the Welsh Language Board. Every scheme was unique, so it wasn't possible for the public to know what their rights were without reading every scheme, and clearly that wasn't going to happen. Within sectors, of course, there were differences between various organisations although they were working in the same areas.

So it appeared to us that we needed to legislate anew and to create a champion for the Welsh language, and that was the role of the commissioner. That was in the Plaid Cymru manifesto in 2007, and then, when the One Wales Government was created, it was part of the new Government's work programme.

The intention, therefore, was to have consistency within the sectors, to expand the remit of the legislation and to create a commissioner, as I said, so that we could enforce those standards once they were in place—or once those schemes were in place. The wider purpose was to normalise the use of the Welsh language—that term was used very frequently during that decade. It was normalising the use of the Welsh language, as has happened in an institution such as this one, for example, and to make it an integral, natural part of the activities of various bodies.

Of course, there were challenges in relation to this process, because, at the time— as I'm sure many of you will well remember—we had to draw the powers down from Westminster, and that was an extremely difficult and long, drawn-out process. There was some opposition. People were eager to restrict the powers that the Assembly would have, and there was great debate in Westminster at the time, among the party of Government at that time, about that issue. There was some clear opposition and I heard people saying that the intention was to slow the process so that we couldn't legislate; there would be no time. And we only just managed to get that legislation through at the beginning of 2011.

I should say, therefore, that one criticism of the Measure is that the process of creating standards is long, drawn out and complex, but the reason for that is that there are many checks and balances within the process. I think the term in the Measure is that everything has to be fair and proportionate—I think those are the words—and that reflected the concern that we may impose unreasonable requirements on bodies in Wales.

10:05

Felly, byddech chi'n dadlau yn erbyn y term sy'n cael ei roi o gwmpas, sef ei bod hi’n fiwrocrataidd. Byddech chi’n dweud bod y broses yno am bwrpas, bod hynny’n rhan o—

So, you would argue against the use of the term 'bureaucracy'. You would say that it was there for a purpose, that it's part of—

Rydw i'n siŵr y gellid bod wedi creu trefn ychydig yn symlach, ond y rheswm oedd er mwyn sicrhau bod cyrff yn gallu apelio yn erbyn y safonau cyn iddyn nhw gael eu gosod. Ond, fe allwch chi ofyn i’r comisiynydd ynglŷn â’r drefn. Y comisiynydd sydd wedi cael y profiad yna o weithio efo cyrff, felly, fe allwch chi ofyn iddi hi am hynny.

Roedd yna wrthwynebiad hefyd, wrth gwrs, i led a chyrhaeddiad y ddeddfwriaeth. Rydych chi’n gwybod bod yna 107 o gyrff â safonau wedi cael eu gosod arnyn nhw. Wel, mae yna rai eraill, onid oes, sydd heb gael eu gosod eto—y pwysicaf o ddigon ydy’r maes iechyd. Rydw i’n credu ei fod yn anfaddeuol nad oes safonau ar y maes iechyd. Wedyn, mae’r cyfleustodau, wrth gwrs, a thelegyfathrebu. Roedd yna wrthwynebiad i gynnwys y rheini o fewn sgôp y Ddeddf—fe ddywedwyd hynny ar y pryd. Ond, a bod yn deg, mi ddaru Prif Weinidog y dydd, Rhodri Morgan, sefyll yn gadarn ac mi ddywedodd o wrth y cyrff hynny, 'Mi fydd yna ddeddfu ac mi fyddwch chi mewn o fewn sgôp y Ddeddf.' Felly, rydw i’n siomedig bod yna dynnu nôl o hynny.

Ochr arall y geiniog, mewn ffordd, ydy hyrwyddo, wrth gwrs—hybu a hyrwyddo’r Gymraeg—a oedd yn cael ei wneud gan Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg cyn hynny. Mi benderfynom ni—. Mi fuodd yna drafodaeth a dadlau hir, gallaf eich sicrhau chi, ynglŷn â rhoi’r gwaith hyrwyddo i Lywodraeth y dydd. Y ddadl a'm mherswadiodd i ar y pryd oedd: ym mhob enghraifft lle mae cynnydd wedi bod yn y defnydd o iaith leiafrifol, neu iaith lai ei defnydd, boed hynny yng Ngwlad y Basg neu yng Nghatalonia, Llywodraeth y dydd sydd wedi gyrru’r broses. Os nad ydy Llywodraeth y dydd wedi 'commit-io' ei hun, a hynny dros gyfnod maith o flynyddoedd, yna nid oes dim byd yn digwydd. Ac felly, roeddem ni o’r farn, er mwyn sicrhau cyllideb addas a gyrru’r broses yn ei blaen, mai’r Llywodraeth oedd y corff priodol i wneud hynny. Mae tystiolaeth yn awgrymu nad ydy hynny ddim wedi digwydd i'r graddau y buaswn i wedi gobeithio.

Imi gael pwysleisio un peth arall hefyd, ni wnes i erioed ddweud mai'r ddeddfwriaeth oedd y peth pwysicaf o safbwynt parhad a chynyddu defnydd y Gymraeg. Roeddwn i'n meddwl bod strategaeth y Gymraeg yr un mor bwysig, hynny ydy, hyrwyddo a hybu—yr un mor bwysig â'r ddeddfwriaeth. Ond dwy ochr yr un un geiniog ydyn nhw. Nid ydy'r naill yn gallu bodoli heb y llall.

I'm sure a simpler regime could have been created, but the reason for it was to ensure that bodies could appeal against standards before they were imposed. But, you can ask the commissioner about the regime. It's the commissioner who has had that experience of working with bodies, so you can ask her about that particular issue.

There was also opposition, of course, to the scope and reach of the legislation. You will be aware that there are 107 bodies included and standards have been imposed on them. But, there are others, of course, that haven't seen standards imposed and the most important by a long chalk is health. I think it's unforgivable that there are no standards imposed on health. And then there are the utilities, of course, and telecommunications. There was opposition to the inclusion of those within the scope of the Measure—that was said at the time. But, to be fair, the First Minister of the day, Rhodri Morgan, stood firm and he said to those bodies, 'There will be legislation and you will be included within the scope of the legislation.' So, I'm disappointed that there has been some dragging of feet there.

The other side of the coin, of course, is the promotion and facilitation of the Welsh language, which was carried out by the Welsh Language Board previously. We decided—. There was some long discussion and debate, I can assure you, on giving that promotional responsibility to the Government of the day. The argument that persuaded me at the time was that, in every example where there has been an increase in the use of a minority language, or a lesser used language, be that in the Basque Country or in Catalonia, then it's the Government of the day that has driven that process. If the Government of the day aren't committed to that over a lengthy period of time, then nothing tends to happen. So, we were of the view that, in order to secure appropriate funds and to drive the process forward, it was the Government that was the appropriate body to do that. Evidence suggests that that hasn't happened to the extent that I would have hoped.

For me to emphasise one other thing, I never said that the legislation was the most important thing in terms of the survival and an increase in the use of the Welsh language. I thought the Welsh language strategy was just as important— promotion was just as important as the Measure. But they are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other.

10:10

Diolch. A beth yw'ch barn chi ynglŷn â beth oedd disgwyliadau'r Llywodraeth pan oedd y gyllideb, efallai, yn llawer llai na chyllideb bwrdd yr iaith yn gynt? Rydw i'n gwybod ei bod hi'n draean o gyllideb Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, ac mae hi wedi cael ei thorri ymhellach ers hynny. Pa mor realistig yw e i'r comisiynydd allu gwneud y gwaith safonau a hyrwyddo os oes yna bylu ar y gyllideb honno?

Thank you. And what is your view regarding what the Government's expectations were when the budget was much smaller than that of the former language board? I know it was a third of the former Welsh Language Board's budget, and it's been cut even further since then. How realistic is it that the commissioner should be able to do the standards and promotional work if there is a great rein on that budget?

Wel, mae cyllideb yn hollbwysig i unrhyw raglen waith. Af i ddim i mewn i'r toriadau sydd wedi bod ar gyllideb y comisiynydd; rydw i'n credu ei bod hi i lawr 25 y cant, onid ydy hi? Ond, mi oedd rôl y comisiynydd, er bod ganddi rôl eang, eang o safbwynt hyrwyddo a hybu—yr oedd llawer iawn o'r gwaith roedd bwrdd yr iaith yn ei wneud cynt wedi dod i'r Llywodraeth. Y Llywodraeth oedd i fod i wneud llawer o'r gwaith a oedd yn cael ei wneud gan fwrdd yr iaith gynt. Os nad yw'r Llywodraeth wedi ei wneud o, mater i'r Llywodraeth ydy esbonio hynny, nid beio'r comisiynydd am beidio â gwneud rhywbeth nad oedd, mewn gwirionedd, o fewn ei remit hi. Felly, annheg ydy disgwyl i'r comisiynydd fod yn gwneud yr holl waith hybu a hyrwyddo a rheoleiddio.

The budget is crucial to any work programme, of course. I won't go into the cuts that there have been to the commissioner's budget; I think it's down 25 per cent, isn't it? But the role of the commissioner, although she had a very broad role in terms of promotion—but much of the work that the Welsh Language Board did previously has now gone into Government. It was the Government that were to do much of the work that had been done previously by the Welsh Language Board. If the Government hasn't done that, then it's a matter for the Government to explain why, not to blame the commissioner for not doing something that truly wasn't within her remit. So, I think it's unfair to expect the commissioner to be doing all of that promotional work as well as the regulation work.

Ocê, diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae hynny'n ddefnyddiol. Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much. That's very useful. Siân Gwenllian.

Jest ar y pwynt yna, hynny yw, mae Comisiynydd y Gymraeg yn dadlau bod hyrwyddo a hwyluso a hybu yn rhan o'i dyletswyddau, ond mai diffyg arian sydd yn dal hynny nôl yn hytrach na beth rydych chi'n ei ddweud—mai'r Llywodraeth oedd i fod i wneud yr hybu a'r hwyluso.

Just on that point, the Welsh Language Commissioner argues that the promotion and facilitation of the language are part of her duties, but that it's the lack of funding that is actually hindering that, rather than what you're saying, namely that the Government was supposed to be doing that work.

Mae gan y comisiynydd hawl i wneud unrhyw beth sydd, yn ei thyb hi, yn hyrwyddo a hybu defnydd y Gymraeg, felly mae ei remit hi'n eang iawn, iawn, ac mae ei hadroddiad hi i chi a'r adroddiad blynyddol yn esbonio'n fanwl iawn, iawn beth maen nhw yn ei wneud yn y sector fusnes a'r sector wirfoddol ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae hynny yn digwydd, rydw i'n derbyn hynny. Ond mae lot o'r gwaith roedd bwrdd yr iaith yn ei wneud—hynny ydy, y Llywodraeth sydd wedi cymryd y cyfrifoldeb yna. Rydw i'n iawn wrth ddweud bod mentrau iaith, er enghraifft, yn dod dan y Llywodraeth. Nid ydyn nhw'n dod dan y comisiynydd, nac ydynt? Wel, roedd y mentrau iaith yn ffrwyth meddylfryd bwrdd yr iaith ar y pryd a mater o farn ydy i ba raddau maen nhw wedi llwyddo. Maen nhw'n amrywio yn fawr iawn o le i le ac yn y blaen.

Ond mae'r gwaith meddal yna i fod yn rhan o weithgarwch y Llywodraeth. Er enghraifft, un o'r pethau mae'r Llywodraeth yn sôn bydd ei angen yn y dyfodol ydy trosglwyddo iaith o fewn teuluoedd—pa mor bwysig ydy hynny. Mi oedd gan fwrdd yr iaith gynllun, Twf, a oedd yn hyrwyddo hynny, ond mae'r Llywodraeth wedi dileu'r rhaglen. Y Llywodraeth a wnaeth hynny, nid y comisiynydd. Felly, mi oedd yna ddisgwyl y byddai'r Llywodraeth yn ffurfio uned gref o fewn y gwasanaeth sifil i wneud y gwaith yma o hyrwyddo. Hyd y gwelaf i, nid ydy o wedi digwydd.

The commissioner has a right to do anything that, in her view, promotes the use of the Welsh language and facilitates the use of the Welsh language. Her remit is very broad and her report to you, as well as the annual report of the commissioner, explains in very great detail what they do in the business sector and the voluntary sector and so on and so forth. So, that is happening, and I accept that. But, much of the work that the Welsh Language Board did—it's the Government that took responsibility for that. I think I'm right in saying that the mentrau iaith are under the Government, rather than the commissioner. Well, the mentrau iaith were the result of the thinking of the Welsh Language Board at the time, and it's a matter of opinion as to what extent they have succeeded. They are very different in different areas and so on.

But that softer work is supposed to be part of the Government's activities. For example, one of the things that the Government mentions in terms of what's needed for the future is language transfer within families, and they emphasise the importance of that. The Welsh Language Board had a scheme, Twf, which promoted that, but the Government have scrapped that programme. It's the Government that did that, not the commissioner. So, there was an expectation that the Government would form a strong unit within the civil service to carry out this work of promotion. As far as I can see, it hasn't happened.

Diolch. Ceir cwestiynau nawr gan Mick Antoniw.

Thank you. The questions are now from Mick Antoniw.

Firstly, welcome back; it's very good to see you here. Is it the case that, really, from the start, the main purpose of regulation and the Measure was to actually try and resolve all the historic anomalies with regard to the status of the language? That is, it had to be there in place, it had to be part of the state, it had to be official, and that until that was in place, the issue of the promotion of the language, which is, essentially, a policy matter, really could never be properly fulfilled. Was that the thinking, or was there a blurring that the two functions sort of actually went together?

Mae rhaid i Ddeddf gyflawni pethau. Mae rhaid i Ddeddf wneud rhywbeth. Mi oedd yna ddadl ar y pryd, efallai y byddwch chi'n cofio, mai'r unig beth oedd angen ei wneud oedd dweud bod gan y Gymraeg statws cyfartal efo'r Saesneg, a bod gennych chi hawl i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg. Fe fyddech chi wedyn fel unigolyn, os oeddech chi eisiau defnyddio'r Gymraeg gyda chyngor sir neu gyda chorff cyhoeddus a'ch bod chi ddim yn ei dderbyn o, yn gallu herio hynny yn y llys. Fy marn i ydy nad ydy'r rhan fwyaf o bobl ddim yn mynd i fynd i lys i wneud y ffasiwn beth, a beth bynnag, y llysoedd a fyddai'n pennu wedyn beth oedd y norm i fod, ac fe allech chi gael canlyniadau difrifol i hynny.

Felly, bwriad y safonau oedd creu rhyw fath o strwythur o osod gofynion ar y cyrff yma, o fewn y sector cyhoeddus yn bennaf, i gynnig gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—hynny ydy, dyletswydd ar y corff oedd hi, ac wrth roi dyletswydd ar y corff roeddech chi'n creu hawl i'r unigolyn wedyn i ddefnyddio'r gwasanaeth hwnnw, ac felly bod yr onus yn mynd ar y corff yn hytrach na'r unigolyn. At ei gilydd, mae'r dystiolaeth o'r hyn rydw i wedi'i weld yn awgrymu bod hynny wedi llwyddo, i raddau beth bynnag, achos mae'r ddadl yma ynglŷn â statws yr iaith—.

Os caf i gyfeirio nôl at fy mhrofiad i yng Nghyngor Gwynedd—a oedd wedi mabwysiadu polisi dwyieithog ers 1974—yn 1995-6, pan oeddwn i'n arweinydd y cyngor, mi oeddem ni wedi awgrymu ein bod ni'n gwneud y Gymraeg yn iaith swyddogol y cyngor. Wrth gwrs, yr her a roddwyd i ni oedd, 'Mae hi yn iaith swyddogol y cyngor, ond beth ydych chi eisiau wneud?' Beth wnaethom ni wedyn oedd trio ei gwneud hi yn iaith weinyddol y cyngor, hynny ydy rhoi'r holl beth ar weithrediad. Hynny ydy, trwy weithredu rydych chi'n creu statws i iaith; nid yw'n bodoli i fyny fanna—mae'n rhaid iddo fodoli mewn gwirionedd. Ac felly dyna oedd yr holl feddylfryd tu ôl i greu'r safonau—eich bod chi'n rhoi gofynion ar gyrff i gyflawni gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg oes oedd yr unigolyn eu heisiau nhw—yn Gymraeg neu'n Saesneg, wrth gwrs, yng Nghymru.

Rydw i'n meddwl bod y dystiolaeth mae'r comisiynydd ei hun yn ei rhoi yn ei thystiolaeth i chi—mae'n dweud yn 1.24:

'mae tystiolaeth fod ansawdd ac argaeledd gwasanaethau Cymraeg wedi gwella’n aruthrol ers cyflwyno’r safonau.'

Wel, nid ydy'r safonau wedi bod mewn bodolaeth ond ers 2016, cyfnod cymharol fyr, ac mae hi'n dweud—ac fe gewch chi ei holi hi ynglŷn â'r dystiolaeth, wrth gwrs—bod yna welliant wedi bod. Mae yna ddeddfwriaeth wedi ei phasio yn y lle yma y byddai hi'n anodd iawn i chi fesur ei llwyddiant neu ei diffyg llwyddiant, ond yn fan hyn mae yna dystiolaeth, o leiaf, ei fod yn gweithio'n rhannol. Rydw i'n siŵr nad ydy o'n berffaith, ond gobeithio fy mod i wedi ateb eich cwestiwn chi—nid wyf yn siŵr.

Legislation has to accomplish something. It has to do something. There was a debate at the time, you may remember, that the only thing that we needed to do was say that Welsh had equal status with English, and then that you had the right to use the Welsh language. You would then as an individual, if you wished to use the Welsh language with the county council or a public body and you didn't receive that service, you could challenge that in court. My view is that most people aren't going to go to law to do such a thing, and then it would be the courts that would decide on what the norm should be, and you could have very serious outcomes to that.

So, the intention of the standards was to create some kind of a structure that would place or impose requirements on these organisations, within the public sector primarily, to offer services through the medium of Welsh—that is, it was a duty placed on the organisation, and by doing that you created the right for the individual to use that service, so the onus was on the organisation rather than on the individual. Generally, the evidence that I've seen suggests that that has succeeded, to some degree anyway, because this argument about the status of the language—.

If I could refer back to my experience in Gwynedd Council—having adopted a bilingual policy since 1974—in 1995-6, when I was leader of the council, we had suggested that we would make the Welsh language the council's official language. Of course, the challenge levelled at us was, 'It is already the council's official language, but what do you want to do?' What we did was try to make it the council's language of administration—to make it operational, and that is how you give status to a language; it's not something that exists in the ether—it has to exist in reality on the ground. And so that was the whole mindset behind the creation of standards—that you should place requirements on organisations to deliver services through the medium of Welsh if that individual wanted them—whether that be in Welsh or in English, of course, in Wales.

I think the evidence the commissioner herself has included in her evidence to you—she says in 1.24:

'there is evidence that the quality and availability of Welsh language services has
improved dramatically since the introduction of the standards.'

Well, the standards haven't existed for very long—they came in in 2016, which is a comparatively short period of time—and of course you can question her on this evidence, namely that there's been an improvement. Legislation has been passed in this place that would be very difficult to measure in terms of its success, or its lack of success, but here she says that there is evidence that it is, at least, working partially. I'm sure it's not perfect, but I hope that I've answered your question—I'm not sure.     

10:15

You have. I want to come on to the role of legislation and whatever in support of and promoting the language, but what I wanted to get to first of all is in terms of actually creating the framework within which that can happen. Those of us who remember the issue in the early 1970s through to now—there's been phenomenal change. The Measure has actually been—. I suppose you'd agree that the Measure has actually been extremely successful in achieving that level of regulatory change within the way institutions operate, in a way that was probably envisaged at the time. Is that a reasonable thing to say?  

Wel, yr unig dystiolaeth sydd gen i ydy tystiolaeth y comisiynydd, ac mae ei thystiolaeth hi'n awgrymu bod hynny'n wir. Mae'n dweud wedyn yn 1.29 mai 

'parhau i wella mae’r cyfleoedd i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg',

meddai hi yn ei thystiolaeth i chi. 

Peth arall, wrth gwrs, ydy faint o'r cyhoedd sydd yn manteisio ar y cyfleodd yma, ond mae ei wneud o'n hawdd yn rhan o gynyddu'r defnydd, fe fyddwn i'n dadlau. Os oes yna rwystr i rywbeth, mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn mynd i beidio â'i wneud o, ond os ydy o'n hawdd ac yn ddisgwyliedig, yna mae gennych chi fwy o obaith i hynny ddigwydd, i'r defnydd gynyddu, a dyna rydym ni ei eisiau yn y pen draw. Felly, ydw, rydw i'n cytuno â chi—rydw i'n meddwl.

Well, the only evidence that I have is the evidence of the commissioner, and her evidence suggests that that is true. She then says in 1.29 that

'opportunities to use Welsh with public organisations are continuing to improve,

which is what she says in her evidence.

It's another point, of course, as to how many members of the public actually take advantage of these opportunities, but making it easy is part of increasing the use, I would argue. If there is an obstacle to something, then most people won't bother, but if it's easy and expected, or it's normal procedure, then you've got more hope for that to happen, increased use, and that's what we want ultimately. So, yes, I agree with you—I think.

10:20

Dyfodol yr Iaith say that the Measure hasn't got to grips with the need to increase the number of Welsh speakers. But is it reasonable to say that where we are now is that, having made significant advances in terms of the framework, the status, the opportunities to use—the role of the state in terms of the status of the language—the real issue now is the question of policy, the promotion of the language, the promotion of education, and that that is the area that the Measure has actually created a framework within which that can happen? So, that the real issue now is, obviously, to maintain the standards and to improve et cetera, but it's actually the policy side, the strategy side, which you referred to earlier, that now is actually really coming to the fore, and that's the key—the promotion. And I suppose the question that I'm getting to is in terms—on the regulatory side, do you see that's something that was envisaged, that once or when progress was made on that, the policy side should be something that is now the responsibilty, the political responsibility, of Government to develop, or do you see that being something that should be developed in a different way?

Wel, dyna yn union roeddem ni wedi ei ragweld, er y byddwn i wedi dweud bod creu strategaeth sydd yn hybu ac yn hyrwyddo i fod i ddigwydd ochr yn ochr â'r ddeddfwriaeth—nid rhywbeth a oedd yn dilyn wedyn. Ond, yn sicr, mae'n ymddangos bod y ddeddfwriaeth, y Mesur, wedi llwyddo yn ei bwriad cyntaf, o leiaf, i greu fframwaith lle mae yna gynnydd yn y defnydd a'r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael yn Gymraeg. Rydych chi'n hollol iawn i ddweud bod yna joban fawr o waith i'w wneud wedyn, wrth gwrs—mae hynny'n cynnwys addysg, yn bennaf efallai, ac yn bwysicach na dim byd—ac mae hynny yn waith i Lywodraeth ac i bartneriaid eraill, a hefyd i baratoi gwasanaethau ymylol, neu rydych chi'n mynd i lanio yn yr un sefyllfa ag Iwerddon, lle mae yna ganran uchel iawn o'r boblogaeth yn medru siarad Gwyddeleg, neu rywfaint o Wyddeleg, achos roedd yn rhaid iddyn nhw basio Gwyddeleg er mwyn cael gwaith yn y gwasanaeth sifil. Ond nid oes yna ddim cynnydd wedi bod yn y defnydd o'r Wyddeleg, neu ychydig iawn, oherwydd hynny. Nid ydy gofynion deddfwriaethol yn golygu bod pobl yn mynd i'w siarad hi ac i'w defnyddio hi. Ac mae Iwerddon yn enghraifft—wel, nid ydy'r sefyllfa yr un fath, a rhaid ichi beidio â chymharu'r ddwy, rydw i'n derbyn hynny, ond yr Wyddeleg ydy prif iaith swyddogol Iwerddon. Hynny ydy, mi fuasech chi'n meddwl bod y statws hwnnw yn ddigon, ond nid ydy o wedi bod yn ddigon i adfer y defnydd o'r Wyddeleg. Felly, mae'n rhaid i chi wneud pethau eraill, onid oes, ac mae addysg yn un peth? Ond y tu ôl i addysg, mae'n rhaid ichi gael pob math o bethau eraill yn digwydd.

Mi fyddwn i'n dadlau bod creu pwrpas—trwy gynyddu nifer y bobl sy'n defnyddio'r Gymraeg o fewn cyrff cyhoeddus, a chyrff eraill hefyd, rydych chi'n creu pwrpas i addysg ddwyieithog. Rydych chi'n cynhyrchu pobl sydd yn abl wedyn i fynd i'r swyddi yma, ac i weithredu ynddyn nhw, â'r profiad—. Ac nid rhywbeth dros nos ydy o—proses ydy hi, taith ydy hi. Rydw i'n gwybod bod yr hen ddywediad am ddatganoli—ei fod o'n broses ac nid yn ddigwyddiad—ond mae hynny'n wir am unrhyw gynllun i hyrwyddo datblygiad y Gymraeg. Ac mae gen i brofiad o'i weld o yng Nghyngor Gwynedd. Ym 1974 y dechreuodd y broses yn fanno, ond erbyn hyn mae yna weithlu, ar y cyfan—ar y cyfan—dwyieithog, sydd yn gallu ymateb wedyn i anghenion pobl yn Gymraeg neu yn Saesneg, ym mhob man yn y cyngor. Wel, mae hynny'n ddelfryd, ac nid ydy o'n mynd i ddigwydd mewn rhannau o Gymru, wrth gwrs, am yn hir iawn, ond os ydych chi'n cychwyn ar y broses o greu fframwaith deddfwriaethol sydd yn cynyddu'r defnydd a'r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael, rydych chi'n rhoi pwrpas wedyn i'r addysg hefyd.

Well, that's exactly what we had anticipated, although I would have said that creating a strategy that promotes should have happened alongside the legislation—it wasn't something that would follow on afterwards. But, certainly, it appears that the Measure has succeeded in its first aim, at least, namely of creating a framework where there is an increase in the use of the Welsh language and an increase in the number of services available through the medium of Welsh. You are entirely right to say that there's a major piece of work to be done then—that includes education, mainly perhaps, and most importantly—and that is the work of Government and of other partners, and also to prepare those ancillary services, or you will find yourself in the same situation as Ireland, where there are a high proportion of the population who are able to speak Irish, or some Irish, because they had to pass an exam in order to have work in the civil service. But there's been no increase in the use of the language, or very little increase, as a result of that. So, legislative requirements don't lead necessarily to people speaking the language or using the language. And the situation isn't exactly the same in Ireland, and you shouldn't compare the two, I accept that, but Irish is the main official language of Ireland. That is, you would think that that status would be sufficient, but it hasn't been sufficient in restoring the use of the Irish language. So, you have to do other things too, don't you, and education is one thing? But along with education, you have to have all sorts of other things happening.

I would argue that, by increasing the number of people using the Welsh language within public bodies, and other organisations too, you then give purpose to bilingual education. You are producing people who are then able to take these posts, and to operate effectively within them, and with the experience—. And it's not something that happens overnight—it's a process, it's a journey. I know that there's that old saying about devolution—it's a process not an event—but the same is true about any plan to promote the development of the Welsh language. And I have experience of seeing this at Gwynedd Council. The process started in 1974 there, but now there is a workforce that, generally speaking—generally speaking—is bilingual, and can respond then to the needs of the population in Welsh or in English, in all parts of the council. Well, that's an ideal, and it 's not going to happen in all parts of Wales, of course it's not, for a very long time, but if you start that process of creating a legislative framework that increases the use of the language, and the services available, then you give a purpose, then, to the education too.

I think you've covered all the areas, and I know there are many other questions. So, thank you for those—I thought they were very helpful answers.

Mae gan Siân Gwenllian gwestiwn clou.

Siân Gwenllian has a quick question.

Ym Mehefin eleni, mi wnaeth Gweinidog y Gymraeg sôn na fydd y Llywodraeth yn cyflwyno mwy o safonau ar gyfer sectorau eraill am y tro, oherwydd eu bod nhw am ganolbwyntio eu hadnoddau ar ddatblygu'r Bil newydd. Beth ydy eich barn chi ynglŷn â dod â'r broses i ben dros dro?

In June of this year, the Minister for the Welsh language said that the Government will not will not introduce more standards for other sectors for the time being, because they're going to focus their resources on developing a new Bill. What is your view on bringing that process temporarily to a close?

10:25

Wel, nid wyf yn deall y rhesymeg. Hynny ydy, os ydy'r broses wedi gweithio o fewn y 107 o gyrff yma, lle mae'r safonau wedi eu gosod—er fy mod i'n gresynu bod y broses wedi cymryd mor hir, ond dyna fo—ac o fewn amser cymharol fyr, yn ôl y comisiynydd a'i thystiolaeth i chi, mae hi wedi gweithio. Mae peidio â'i ymestyn i'r cyfleustodau a pheidio ag ymestyn i delegyfathrebu yn gamgymeriad achos os ydy o'n gweithio, bydd yn gweithio yn fan hyn hefyd.

Gadewch imi roi enghraifft cwbl ymarferol o'r peth. Cymerwch chi gyfleustod a chwmni llwyddiannus iawn fel Scottish Power, sydd yn gweithredu yn y gogledd yn bennaf. Roedd gan Scottish Power ganolfan alw ddwyieithog yng Nghaernarfon ac fe gaewyd hi saith mlynedd yn ôl, neu fwy, a'i symud i Wrecsam, gan ddweud y byddai'r gwasanaeth yn aros yr un fath. Mi ddadleuon ni yn erbyn hynny. Erbyn hyn, os triwch chi  ffonio llinell Gymraeg Scottish Power fe gewch chi, un ai dim ymateb o gwbl, neu fe gewch chi rywun yn dweud, 'Nid oes yna neb yn siarad Cymraeg yma heddiw; ffoniwch yn ôl ddydd Llun.' Dyna sy'n digwydd. Mae disgwyl i gwmni preifat i wirfoddoli i roi gwasanaeth fel hyn yn naïf a dweud y lleiaf. Mewn gwirionedd, beth rydych chi'n ei ddweud ydy bod Deddf 1993 yn hen ddigon da, achos dyna oedd Deddf 1993 yn ei wneud, sef hunan-reoli—self-regulation. Rydym i gyd yn gwybod beth sy'n digwydd efo self-regulation yn y sector ariannol ac yn y blaen. Felly, nid wyf yn deall rhesymeg y Llywodraeth yn dweud eu bod nhw'n fodlon cadw'r safonau yn y meysydd hynny lle maen nhw wedi cael eu gosod, ond, 'Nid ydym ni'n mynd i'w ymestyn o achos'—wel, nid wyf yn gwybod pam. Does bosib eich bod chi ishio—

Well, I don't understand the rationale. If the process has worked within these 107 bodies, where standards have been imposed—although, I regret that the process has taken so long, but there we go—and within a relatively short period of time, according to the commissioner and her evidence to you, then it has worked. Not extending it to the utilities and not extending it to telecommunications is a mistake, because if it works, then it'll work there too. 

Let me give you an entirely practical example. If you look at that very successful company, Scottish Power, which is operational in north Wales mainly—Scottish Power had a bilingual call centre in Caernarfon, and it was closed seven years ago, slightly longer ago perhaps, and it was moved to Wrexham. They said that the service would remain the same. We argued against that. Now, if you try and phone the Scottish Power Welsh language line, you'll either get no response at all, or you'll have someone saying, 'We have no Welsh speakers available today; phone back on Monday.' That is what happens. Expecting a private company to voluntarily provide services of this kind is naive to say the least. In reality, what you're saying is that the 1993 Act was perfectly good, because that’s what the 1993 Act did—it was self-regulation. We all know what happens with self-regulation, in the financial sector and so on and so forth. So, I don't understand the rationale of the Government in saying that they are content to retain the standards in those areas where they've already been imposed, but they're not going to extend them because—well, I don't know why. Surely you don't want—

Wel, am y tro maen nhw'n dweud eu bod nhw'n mynd i roi'r adnoddau sydd ganddyn nhw ar gyfer creu mwy o safonau er mwyn creu Bil newydd, sy'n awgrymu mai criw bychan iawn, iawn o bobl sydd yn gweithio ar y safonau, achos does bosib bod rhywun yn gallu gwneud y ddau beth ar unwaith—

Well, for the time being, they're saying that they are going to direct the resources that they have for the creation of more standards in order to create a new Bill, which suggests that it's a very, very small group indeed that is working on the standards, because it's impossible for them to do both things at once—

Y peth ydy, mae'r comisiynydd wedi mynd trwy'r holl broses o osod safonau, a siawns, erbyn hyn, fod y comisiynydd a'i staff wedi dod i ddeall sut mae'r peth yn gweithio ac wedi ei wneud o'n fwy rhwydd. Gan ei bod eisoes yn gweithredu, ni allaf weld pam na ellir mynd ymlaen efo'r broses efo'r sectorau sydd o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth, ac unrhyw gorff newydd sydd yn addas i'w gynnwys hefyd. Felly, rydw i jest ddim yn deall y rhesymeg, mae arnaf ofn.

The thing is, the commissioner has gone through this whole process of imposing standards, and surely, by now, the commissioner and her staff have come to understand how it all works and have made it so that it's more easily delivered. As it's already in operation, I don't understand why it couldn't continue with those sectors that are contained within the Measure, and any new body that could appropriately be included. So, I simply don't understand the rationale behind this, I'm afraid.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae'r cwestiynau nawr gan David Melding.

Thank you very much. Questions from David Melding now.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Ffred, can I also welcome you back, and I also welcome your typically crisp and clear contributions?

I think that the second question that I was due to ask, Chair—whether, on the Measure, it's too early to amend or to completely replace—has been adequately dealt with and fully dealt with. I do, however, want to return to this issue of the standards. You said you regret the time it's taken to get as far as we have, and we've only just gone as far as the health service with the latest regulations, and we've obviously just heard that there won't be any further regulations until the Government's intentions are clear. Do you think the speed of introducing the standards was affected by their complexity and the bureaucratic nature of the process? It's not just the Government—some organisations have said this as well to the consultation that's been carried out. Do you think it's been a bit heavy-handed and perhaps too forensic and not enough on the more generic standards you might want to put in place to encourage a culture rather than box-ticking or whatever?

10:30

Rydw i'n ategu hynny. Rydw i'n credu bod pum mlynedd wedi bod yn amser rhy hir i osod y safonau, ac mi fuodd yna ddadlau. Rydw i'n derbyn bod y ddeddfwriaeth yn ofalus iawn, iawn ac yn rhoi cyfle i bobl herio'r safonau. Felly, mae hynny'n golygu bod y broses yn un weddol o hir. Ond, o gofio cymhlethdod y gwaith y mae rhai o'r cyrff yma'n ei wneud, yn enwedig llywodraeth leol, nid ydych chi'n mynd i gael deddfwriaeth syml, efo rhyw un llinell, sydd yn mynd i lwyddo i wneud y gwaith.

Mae yna beryg, wrth gwrs, wrth orsymleiddio, y gallwch chi wneud rhywbeth arwynebol iawn, iawn, sydd mewn gwirionedd ddim yn heriol o gwbl. Achos holl bwrpas y ddeddfwriaeth oedd newid y ffordd roedd pobl yn gweithio, y ffordd roedd cyrff yn gweithio, a'r ffordd roedden nhw'n edrych ar y Gymraeg o fewn eu strwythurau eu hunain. Felly, nid oedd disgwyl i'r ddeddfwriaeth fod yn un tudalen a ffwrdd â chi.

Mae'n siŵr ei bod hi yn orofalus, fel rydw i'n dweud, ond un o'r rhesymau am hynny oedd bod ein partneriaid ni yn y Llywodraeth yn bur bryderus ynglŷn ag ymateb rhai o'r cyrff yma ac eisiau rhoi cyfle iddyn nhw ddod yn ôl felly os oedden nhw'n teimlo bod y safonau yn afresymol ac yn annheg. Dyna fo; rydw i'n meddwl bod hynny'n iawn. Mae o'n gwneud y broses yn hirach, ond rydw i'n siŵr—a chewch chi ofyn i'r comisiynydd a ydyn nhw wedi dysgu o hynny ac a ydy hynny felly yn golygu bod y broses yn fwy syml erbyn hyn—. 

Bydd yn ddiddorol iawn gweld beth fydd gan y comisiynydd i ddweud ynglŷn â'r safonau yn y sector iechyd, er enghraifft—sector eithriadol o bwysig i gymaint ohonom ni. Os ydych chi'n meddwl am blant, pobl ag afiechyd meddwl, dementia—mae iaith yn greiddiol i ofal o'r fath, ac mi fyddwn i'n ychwanegu pobl sydd yn wynebu clefydau sydd â'r potensial i fod yn angheuol.

Nid ydych chi'n disgwyl i bob arbenigwr a phob consultant a phob llawfeddyg fod yn siarad Cymraeg, a ydych chi? Na, ond mae cael pobl rydych chi'n gallu cysylltu â nhw—ac rydw i'n gwybod hyn o brofiad personol—sydd yn medru ei wneud o yn eich mamiaith, pa un bynnag ydy honno, y Gymraeg neu Saesneg ac efallai ieithoedd eraill—. Mae cael pobl rydych chi'n gallu cyfathrebu â nhw yn eich pryder ac yn y blaen yn eithriadol o bwysig, nid i'r driniaeth, ond i'r claf pan fo'n mynd drwy'r broses.

Felly, bydd hi'n ddiddorol iawn gweld beth sydd gan y comisiynydd i ddweud wrthych chi am osod safonau yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, ac mae dirfawr angen hynny rhag blaen. Rydw i wedi colli trac ar eich cwestiwn chi, rydw i'n meddwl—

I endorse what's just been said. I think five years has been too long a time for setting the standards, and there were disputes. I accept that the legislation is very, very carefully prepared and it gives people an opportunity to challenge those standards. So, that means that the process is quite lengthy. But, bearing in mind the complexity of the work that some of these organisations undertake, particularly local government, you're not going to get simple legislation, with just one line, that will succeed in doing the job.

There is a risk, in oversimplification, that you can get very superficial legislation, which won't challenge anybody at all. Because the whole purpose of the legislation was to change the way in which people worked, bodies worked, and the way in which they viewed the Welsh language within their own structures. So, you couldn't expect the legislation to be a one-pager and off you go.

I'm sure that it may be overcautious, as I say, but one of the reasons for that was that our partners in Government were quite concerned about the reaction of some of these organisations and wanted to give them an opportunity to come back if they felt that the standards were unreasonable and unfair. There we go; I think that's quite right. It does make the process a longer one, but I'm sure you can ask the commissioner whether they've learnt from that and whether that means the process is simplified by now.

It will be very interesting to hear what the commissioner will have to say about standards in the health sector, for example, an exceptionally important sector to so many of us. If you think about children, people with mental health issues, dementia—language is at the core and at the heart of such care, and I would add those people facing potentially fatal diseases.

You don't expect every specialist, consultant and surgeon to be a Welsh speaker, do you? No, but having people that you can contact—and I know this from personal experience—that can do that in your first language, whether that be Welsh or English and maybe in other languages too. Having people there that you can communicate with when you are in extremis, that is extremely important, not for the treatment, but for the patient when they go through the process.

So, it'll be exceptionally interesting to hear what the commissioner will have to say about standards in the health service, and they're really needed immediately. Sorry, I've lost the thread of your question—

Mae yna lot o gwestiynau i'r comisiynydd nawr y mae'n rhaid inni eu gofyn.

We've got lots of questions for the commissioner now.

Perhaps I can help you along. I sense from your evidence that you believe the current Government has lost the sense of achievement that the Assembly and the Government you were a member of made in shifting us to a standards regime in 2011, away from Welsh language schemes, which are, in essence, voluntary or aspirational at best. Why do you think that's happened? Because you clearly don't think this issue of standards is the culprit here; you think it actually remains the core of the achievement, and, really, seven years later, you could make the opposite argument that, given the big cultural shift this is, things are progressing well and people are being allowed to contribute fully to the process of working them out and that, inevitably, is going to take a bit longer, and that we should have confidence in this system. Is that a fair description of your attitude and frustration at the minute?

Ydy, mae o. Rydw i'n meddwl y dylai'r Llywodraeth a'r Cynulliad, o'r dystiolaeth sydd wedi cael ei chyflwyno, fod yn falch iawn o'r hyn sydd wedi digwydd. Nid ydw i am eiliad yn honni ei bod hi'n berffaith, ond mae wedi symud pethau yn eu blaenau. Fe fyddwn i'n tybio mai beth sydd eisiau ei wneud ydy gofyn, 'Reit, beth arall sydd angen ei wneud tu allan?' Os oes modd diwygio'r ddeddf er mwyn gwneud y broses yn well, wel, gwnewch hynny. Ond peidiwch â thynnu nôl arni achos, hyd y gwelwn ni, mae hi'n llwyddo o fewn ei remit. Beth sydd ei angen, felly, ydy sifft mewn meysydd eraill rŵan i hyrwyddo a datblygu, yn enwedig o fewn y byd addysg, wrth gwrs.

Yes. I think Government and the Assembly, given the evidence submitted, should be very proud of what has happened. Not for one second am I claiming that it's perfect, but it has moved things forward. I would assume that what needs to be done is to ask, 'Well, what else needs to be done?' Of course, if the legislation can be amended in order to improve the process, then do so. But don't withdraw from it because, as far as we can see, it is succeeding within its remit. What's required, therefore, is a shift in other areas now to promote and develop, particularly in education.

10:35

The Assembly is great at introducing legislation, not so good at implementing it and having outcomes, as I'm sure you remember.   

You can say that. I can't possibly comment. [Laughter.]

Last night, we had a debate on the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013. We're great at mapping; we're not so good at changing behaviour. So, I just wondered whether you think that we really need new legislation. You've obviously spoken earlier about the need to tackle the utilities, the telecomms and this sort of thing, but that's quite a limited thing, which could be the subject of an amendment to the Measure. What is the rationale behind new legislation, in your view? 

Wel, fel rydw i wedi dweud yn gynt, nid ydw i cweit yn dilyn rhesymeg y Llywodraeth yn hyn o beth. Mi ddywedodd y Gweinidog eu bod nhw eisiau cadw'r safonau ar y cyrff sydd wedi eu derbyn nhw yn barod. Mae hynny'n awgrymu bod y Llywodraeth yn meddwl eu bod nhw'n gweithio. Os ydych chi'n meddwl nad ydyn nhw'n gweithio, dylech chi eu dileu nhw. Dylech chi jest ddileu'r ddeddf a mynd yn ôl i Ddeddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993 os ydych chi'n credu nad ydyn nhw'n gweithio.

Ar ôl dweud ei bod hi'n cadw'r safonau ar y 107—neu beth bynnag ydy o—o gyrff sydd wedi eu derbyn nhw, mae hi wedyn yn dweud nad ydy hi'n mynd i'w ehangu nhw i'r cyfleustodau a thelegyfathrebu. Mi wnaf i ailadrodd yr hyn a ddywedais i: mi oedd yna lobïo gan y sectorau yma yn erbyn deddfu ar y pryd, oherwydd nad ydy cwmnïau, fel arfer, eisiau unrhyw ddeddf sydd yn cyfyngu ar eu hawl nhw i wneud beth maen nhw eisiau ei wneud. Ond roedd Prif Weinidog y dydd, Rhodri Morgan, yn bendant nid yn unig ein bod ni'n mynd i ddeddfu ond ein bod ni'n mynd i gynnwys y cyfleustodau. Felly, nid ydw i'n deall sut—os ydy o'n llwyddiant mewn un sector, pam nad ydych chi'n ei ehangu o i sector arall y mae'r cyhoedd yn gorfod delio â hi? Nid dewis cael trydan ydw i yn y tŷ, nid dewis cael dŵr yn y tŷ ydw i, mae'n rhaid imi eu cael nhw, felly, rydw i'n delio â rheini, ac mi allwch chi wneud yr un ddadl am delegyfathrebu. Buaswn i'n licio ei ehangu hi wedyn i feysydd fel banciau ac yn y blaen, ond nid ydyn nhw o fewn sgôp y ddeddf. 

Mae'r Llywodraeth wedyn, neu'r Gweinidog, yn dweud bod eisiau sifftio wedyn. Mae hi'n sôn am carrot and stick, onid ydy hi? Wel, wyddoch chi, mae profiad pawb ohonom ni efo'r sector ariannol yn dweud wrthych chi nad ydy carrot heb y stick yn gweithio'n dda iawn, hyd y gallaf i weld. Wedyn, mae hi'n symud ymlaen i ddweud bod eisiau mwy o bwyslais ar hyrwyddo a llai ar reoleiddio, fel petasai hi'n sifftio rhyw arian mawr. Wel, nid oes yna arian mawr yn y rheoleiddio yma. Nid oes arian mawr gan y comisiynydd. Beth ydy cyllideb y comisiynydd?  Tair miliwn o bunnoedd. Nid ydy £3 miliwn yn mynd i wneud llawer o wahaniaeth o ran hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg. Felly, mae'r syniad yma eich bod chi'n symud rhyw adnoddau mawr o reoleiddio i hyrwyddo yn— wel, mae o'n ddewis ffals. Nid ydy o'n rhesymegol; nid ydy o'n seiliedig ar ddim byd. Rydw i'n meddwl bod y dewis yma o ddweud 'rheoleiddio neu hyrwyddo' yn nonsens.

Os ydych chi'n dilyn ffilm o gwbl, fe fyddwch chi'n gwybod bod yna dric y mae sgriptiwr yn ei wneud. Mae'n nhw'n ei alw fo'n MacGuffin, a beth ydy MacGuffin ydy pan ydych chi eisiau creu tro yn y plot ond nid ydych chi'n siŵr iawn beth i'w wneud. Felly, un ai rydych chi'n ei wneud o a'i guddio fo, neu rydych chi'n ei roi o yn wyneb y gwyliwr ac mae e jest yn ei dderbyn o achos mae o mor amlwg. Yr un enwog ydy Casablanca, ond af i ddim i mewn i hwnnw. Achos maen nhw'n dweud rhywbeth fel ffaith ar y dechrau nad yw'n wir o gwbl, ond mae holl blot Casablanca yn dibynnu ar y celwydd yma ar y dechrau. Mae'n amlwg bod David Melding yn ddyn diwylliedig— 

Well, as I said earlier, I don't quite follow the rationale of Government in this regard. The Minister said that they wanted to retain the standards where they have already been imposed, and that suggests that the Government believes that they are working. If you think that they don't work, then they should be scrapped. The legislation should be repealed and there should be a return to the Welsh Language Act 1993, if you think that it simply isn't working.

Having said that she is going to retain the standards imposed on the 107 bodies—or however many it is—already subject to them, she then says that she isn't going to extend them to the utilities and telecommunication. I will repeat what I said: there was some lobbying from these sectors against legislation at the time, because companies usually don't want any sort of legislation that restricts their ability to do what they want to do. But the First Minister of the day, Rhodri Morgan, was determined not only that we were going to legislate, but to include the utilities too. So, I don't understand. If it succeeds in one sector, why wouldn't you roll it out to another sector that the public has to deal with? You don't choose to have electricity at home, or you don't choose to have water at home, they are necessary, and, therefore, you deal with those companies, and I would say the same about telecommunications. I would like to expand it then to areas such as banking and so on, but they aren't included within the scope of the legislation.

The Government or the Minister then says that we need a shift. She talks about a carrot and stick, doesn't she? Well, all our experience of the financial sector tells us that the carrot without the stick doesn't work particularly well, as far as I can see. Then she goes on to say that we need more emphasis on promotion and less on regulation, as if she were shifting a great pot of money. There isn't a huge amount of money involved here. The Commissioner doesn't have a huge budget. What is that budget? Three million pounds. Well, £3 million isn't going to make much difference in terms of promoting the Welsh language. Therefore, this idea that you are shifting major resources from regulation to promotion is a false option. It's not rational; it's not based on anything. I think this choice between regulation or promotion is a nonsense.

If you follow film at all, you will know that there is a trick that scriptwriters use. They call it a MacGuffin, and what a MacGuffin is is when you want a twist in the plot but you're not quite sure what to do, so either you do it and hide it or you put it front and centre for the viewer and they simply accept it because it is so apparent. The famous one is Casablanca, but I won't go into that, where they say something as a fact in the beginning that isn't true at all, but the whole plot of Casablanca relies on this untruth at the beginning. David Melding is clearly a cultured man—

Reit. Wel, dyna fo. [Chwerthin.] Mae yna beryg mai MacGuffin ydy hwn. Rydych chi'n dweud, 'Rydym yn mynd i beidio â rheoleiddio er mwyn hyrwyddo,' ond nid dewis fel yna ydy o. Mae eisiau'r ddau beth yn mynd law yn llaw, ac rydych chi wedi gwneud y rheoleiddio, ar y cyfan. Dim ond iechyd a'r cyfleustodau sydd eisiau dod â nhw i mewn ar hyn o bryd. Felly, mae'r hyrwyddo yn aros i'w wneud. Peidiwch â dweud mai'r naill neu'r llall ydy o—dewis ffals ydy hwnnw. Gobeithio fy mod i wedi ateb y cwestiwn.

Right. Well, there it is. [Laughter.] There is a risk that this is a MacGuffin. You say, 'We're not going to regulate in order to promote,' but that's not what the choice is. We need both things going hand in hand, and you've done the regulation, for the most part. It's only health and utilities that need to be drawn in at the moment. So, that promotion remains to be done. Don't tell me that it's one or t'other—it is a false choice. I hope I've answered your question there.

10:40

I think you have, yes. [Laughter.] You were talking about a budget of £3 million, but aren't we looking at it down the wrong end of the telescope? Because we've got a budget that's much larger than that—some £15 billion—and, if we want to get people using the Welsh language, we need to improve our language teaching in our schools.

Wrth gwrs.

Of course.

Small children, once they've dominated one language, whichever language it is—it could be Bengali—can then suck up new languages like a sponge in the early years. So, our record on that isn't very good and it seems to me that that's one of the ways in which we need to widen the base of people who are going to pwyso un for Cymraeg. Because, otherwise, the facility's there, but you're not going to use it.

Wel, mae'r hyn rydych chi wedi'i ddweud am y maes addysg yn berffaith gywir, ond nid ydy hynny yn ddadl yn erbyn rheoleiddio o gwbl. Mae'n ddadl o blaid cael cynllun tymor hir ar gyfer addysg ac, unwaith eto, mae gennym ni gynlluniau datblygu addysg Gymraeg, onid oes, sy'n ddyletswydd ar bob cyngor lleol. Rydych chi'n gwybod beth mae'r comisiynydd wedi'i ddweud am y cynlluniau hynny—mae hi wedi dweud eu bod nhw'n annigonol ac nad ydyn nhw'n mynd i lwyddo i gyrraedd nod Llywodraeth Cymru o greu miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg. Am ei bod hi wedi dweud hynny, fe gomisiynwyd gwaith penodol o dan gadeiryddiaeth Aled Roberts, ac mae o'n dweud yn union yr un peth.

Felly, mae gan y Llywodraeth job o waith i wneud i gael y cynlluniau datblygu addysg Gymraeg yna i fyny i sbid ac i ansawdd lle y byddan nhw'n help i gyrraedd y nod—beth rydych chi'n ei ddweud. Ond i wneud hynny, mae'n rhaid i chi ddatblygu athrawon cymwys sydd yn gallu trosglwyddo'r iaith yn iawn i blant bach, sy'n gallu, fel yr ydych chi'n ei ddweud, amsugno iaith yn hawdd. Ie, fanna mae'r her, ond nid ydy hynny yn ddadl yn erbyn rheoleiddio o fewn y cyrff sydd yn bodoli—gwaith arall ydy o. Ac nid ydy'r ffaith nad yw'r Llywodraeth wedi'i wneud o eto—wel, problem y Llywodraeth ydy honno a'r Llywodraeth sydd yn rhaid ateb dros hynny.

Nid symud rhyw ychydig filiynau ydy hynny—mae hynny'n waith cynllunio manwl dros ddegawdau. Felly, rydw i'n dal i ddod yn ôl—nid naill ai neu ydy o, nid rheoleiddio neu hyrwyddo ydy o. Mater o wneud cynlluniau bwriadol mewn gwahanol feysydd. Addysg ydy'r pwysicaf, ond nid yr unig un.

Well, what you've said about education is entirely right, but that's not an argument against regulation in any way. It is an argument for having a long-term plan for education and, once again, there are Welsh in education strategic plans that are a statutory requirement on all local authorities. You know what the commissioner has said about those WESPs—she has said that they are inadequate and that they will not succeed in achieving the Welsh Government's aim of reaching a million Welsh speakers. Now, as she said that, some specific work was commissioned under the chairmanship of Aled Roberts, and he says exactly the same thing.

So, the Government has a job of work to do in ensuring that these WESPs are up to speed and are of sufficient quality where they will be of assistance in reaching the aim, as you say. But to do that, you have to develop qualified teachers, a teaching workforce that can transmit the language properly to young children, who, as you say, can suck up languages like a sponge. Yes, that's where the challenges lie, but that's not an argument against regulation within the organisations—that's different work. And the fact that the Government hasn't done it as of yet—well, that's the Government's problem and it's the Government that has to account for that.

It's not a matter of shifting a few million pounds—that is work that requires detailed planning over decades. So, I still come back to the point—it's not an either/or, it's not regulation or promotion. It's a matter of having appropriate plans in place in various areas. Education is the most important, but not the only one.

Okay. Well, I'm certainly not arguing against regulation, but we could spend an awful lot of time chasing the telecoms and the utilities when the way in which communications is completely dominated by these global companies based on the west coast of the United States, who—. I don't think we're going to be able to influence what they do when we can't even get them to pay any taxes. So—

Na, ond mae cyfleustodau yn fater gwahanol iawn, onid ydyn? Rydych chi'n sôn am chasing. Wel, na, mae yna ddeddfwriaeth sydd yn dweud, 'Dyma safonau. Dyma'r gofynion o ran cyfathrebu efo'r cwsmeriaid.' Nid ydy o yn anodd o gwbl—mae o wedi digwydd yn barod mewn meysydd a gan gyrff nad oedd yn gwneud dim ohono fo yn gynt, fel rhai cyrff llywodraeth leol. Ond mae'r ddeddf yn dweud bod yn rhaid iddyn nhw wneud ac maen nhw wedi ymateb i'r her. Ac mi fuasai—. Fel rydw i'n dweud, roedd Scottish Power yn arfer ei wneud o; nid ydyn nhw yn ei wneud o rŵan. Nid ydy o yn anodd. A dweud y gwir, mae nhw'n eithaf basic, y pethau sy'n dod o fewn y safonau yma.

No, but the utilities are a very different matter, because you're talking about chasing. Well, no, there is legislation that states, 'These are the requirements. These are the standards as regards communicating with the customers.' It's not at all difficult—it's happened already in other areas, in organisations that never, ever did anything on it previously, such as some local government bodies. The legislation has said that they have to do it and they've responded to that challenge. And, as I say, Scottish Power used to do it; they don't do it now. It's not difficult. To be honest, they're quite basic, the things that come within these standards.

Okay, but what are the risks? We can agree that we need to do both regulation and promotion. What are the risks of structural changes around changing from a commissioner to a commission with a board and a chief executive? What are the risks that we lose momentum on both fronts?

Rydw i'n meddwl mai dyna ydy'r risg fawr—colli momentwm a chreu dryswch. Petaswn i'n sinig—ac nid ydw i, wrth gwrs—[Chwerthin.]—mi fyddwn i'n dweud bod Llywodraeth yn aml iawn yn gweithredu ac yn newid strwythurau pan nad ydyn nhw'n siŵr iawn beth i'w wneud. Mae newid strwythur yn beth hawdd i'w wneud—mae'n cymryd amser, mae yna benodiadau newydd, mae yna broses yn mynd yn ei flaen ac, mewn gwirionedd, rŷch chi'n gofyn yn aml iawn ar ôl ailstrwythuro—. Faint ohonoch chi sydd wedi bod mewn cyrff sydd wedi ailstrwythuro un waith ar ôl y llall, ar ôl y llall? Mae pob un yn broses hir, mae'n gostus, mae'n flêr, rydych chi'n colli staff efo arbenigedd, ac i beth? Os na allwch chi ddangos bod yna ganlyniad pendant a chlir, ac amcan clir, buaswn i'n dweud, 'Peidiwch â'i wneud o'—dyna fyddai fy nghyngor i. Os ydych chi'n gallu profi nad yw rhywbeth ddim yn gweithio, yna wrth gwrs newidiwch o. Felly, rwy'n meddwl bod eich cwestiwn chi ynglŷn â cholli momentwm yn un pwysig iawn i chi, fel pwyllgor, ddod i benderfyniad ynglŷn â fo. Rwy'n dueddol o gytuno efo'r comisiynydd yn hyn o beth. Mae hi'n dweud yn rhywle, yn ei chyflwyniad:

'Bod modd delio â diffygion y gyfundrefn naill ai heb newid deddfwriaeth o gwbl, neu gyda mân ddiwygiadau.'

Y peth arall ynglŷn â'r Papur Gwyn ddaeth o'r Llywodraeth yn Awst 2017—mi gafodd ei gyhoeddi o fewn 16 mis ar ôl i'r safonau gael eu cyflwyno, felly mae'n rhaid iddo fod wedi cael ei sgwennu cyn hynny. Wel, pa dystiolaeth oedd ganddyn nhw o gwbl fod y gyfundrefn yn gweithio neu ddim yn gweithio? Nid yw blwyddyn o ddeddfwriaeth ddim yn gallu profi'r naill beth neu'r llall, felly mae'n rhaid ichi amau pam bod y Llywodraeth wedi gwneud hynny o gwbl. Mater i'r Llywodraeth ydy esbonio hynny, wrth gwrs, ond rwy'n credu bod yna beryglon mawr mewn ymhel â newid strwythur a newid comisiynydd am gomisiwn.

Un o'r pethau y maen nhw'n dweud eu bod nhw eisiau ei hyrwyddo ydy cael siop un stop. Wel, mae'r comisiynydd yn siop un stop, onid ydy hi? Hi sy'n delio, ar hyn ô bryd, efo cwynion. Felly, os ydych chi'n anhapus efo rhywbeth: 'Rwy'n gwybod ble i fynd; y comisiynydd—rwy'n ei nabod hi, rwy'n gwybod amdani, rwyf wedi clywed ei henw hi', ac anfon o i mewn. 'O, rŷm ni'n mynd i gael comisiwn sy'n mynd i—'; 'Na, nid yw'r comisiwn yn mynd i ddelio efo cwynion; rych chi'n cwyno i'r bobl y mae'ch cwyn chi yn eu herbyn nhw'. Wel, mae'n ddrwg iawn gen i, ond rwy'n amheus iawn, iawn. Ond mi fuaswn i, hwyrach. [Chwerthin.]

I think that that is the major risk—losing momentum and creating confusion. If I were a cynic—and I'm not, of course—[Laughter.]—I would say that Government very often changes structures when they're not very certain what else to do. Structure change is something that is easy to do—it takes time, there are new appointments, there's an ongoing process and, in fact, you could ask yourself very often following a restructure—. How many of you have been in organisations that have serial restructuring? Each one is expensive and you lose staff with expert knowledge, and for what? Unless you can demonstrate that there is a clear and definite output or result, then don't do it—that would be my advice. If you can prove that something doesn't work, then of course change it. But, I think that your question about the loss of momentum is an exceptionally important one for you, as a committee, to decide upon. I tend to agree with the commissioner on this. She says, somewhere in her evidence presented to you:

'The shortcomings of the system can be addressed either without changing legislation at all, or through minor amendments.'

Another thing about the White Paper that came out in August 2017, and the publication of that within 16 months of the introduction of the standards—what evidence did they have of whether the system worked or not at that point? Just one year of legislation can't prove one thing or another, so you have to question why the Government did that at that point. That's a matter for the Government to respond to, of course, but I think that there are great dangers in changing structures and changing from a commissioner to a commission.

One thing that they want to promote is a one-stop shop. Well, the commissioner is a one-stop shop, isn't she? She deals with the complaints at the moment. If you're unhappy, you can just go straight to the commissioner: 'I know her, I know of her, I've heard her name'; 'No, we're going to have a commission; no, the commission won't be dealing with complaints; you'll be complaining to the people that you're complaining about'. Well, I'm very sorry, but I'm very doubtful, but perhaps that's in my nature. [Laughter.] 

10:45

Ocê, diolch. Siân Gwenllian.

Okay, thank you. Siân Gwenllian.

Jest i bigo i fyny ar gwpwl o bwyntiau, ynglŷn â'r busnes yma o ddefnyddio moronen yn hytrach na gosod dyletswyddau ar gyrff, ydy hynny'n mynd i gostio mwy, mewn gwirionedd, yn y pen draw? Hynny yw, beth mae Jenny yn ei ddisgrifio fel chasing after y cyfleustodau yma ac yn y blaen, a'r gwaith o drio annog pawb i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg—os ydych chi'n mynd i fynd i lawr y trywydd yna, a oes yna ddadl y byddai hynny'n costio mwy yn y pen draw na dweud yn hollol glir fod yn rhaid ichi wneud hyn a dyna'i diwedd hi?

Just to pick up on a few points, in terms of this business of using the carrot rather than the stick and placing duties on organisations, is that going to cost more, in reality? What Jenny describes as chasing after the utilities and so on, and that work of seeking to encourage everyone to use the Welsh language—if you're going to go down that particular route, is there an argument that that would be more expensive, ultimately, than having it clearly set out that these are the expectations and that's the end of it?

Wel, nid mater o gost ydy o—nid wyf yn meddwl hynny—ond a ydych chi'n credu y dylen nhw weithredu o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth neu beidio. Barn y Cynulliad ar y pryd—. Roedd y Cynulliad, ar y cyfan, eisiau ehangu'r ddeddfwriaeth, eisiau mwy o gyrff i mewn ac eisiau bod yn galetach—dyna oedd mood y Cynulliad ar y pryd. Felly, nid wyf fi jest ddim yn deall—fel rwy'n dweud, nid wyf yn deall rhesymeg y Gweinidog. Os ydych chi'n credu mai rhyw fath o annog sydd ei angen, wel, ewch yn ôl i Ddeddf 1993—awn ni rownd yn trio dweud wrth bobl, 'Wel, come on, dewch, rŵan'. Nid wyf fi jest ddim yn deall rhesymeg y peth. Dyna fo. 

Well, it's not a matter of cost, but whether they should act within the legislation or not. The view of the Assembly—. The Assembly at the time wanted to enhance and expand the legislation and include more organisations within the legislation—that was the mood of the Assembly at the time. So, as I say, I just don't understand the logic or the rationale of the Minister. If you believe that encouragement is what we're after, well, go back to the 1993 Act. You could go around trying to encourage people and saying, 'Come along'. I just don't understand the rationale. There we go.

A fyddech chi'n dadlau—? Mae'n hollol glir beth yw'ch safbwynt chi ynglŷn â chadw'r comisiynydd a symud ymlaen i weithredu'r Ddeddf. Ond, o ran yr agweddau eraill yma sydd wedi mynd ar goll, yn eich barn chi—y dyletswyddau yma oedd fod i gael eu cyflawni gan y Llywodraeth, o ran y cynllunio ieithyddol, y gwaith strategol a'r gwaith yna—sut ydym ni'n symud y gwaith yna ymlaen? Os nad ydym ni'n cael comisiwn, a oes ffordd arall o'i wneud o? Hynny yw, ai o fewn Llywodraeth y dylai'r gwaith yna aros neu a oes yna ddadl dros gadw'r Comisiynydd ond hefyd creu rhyw fath o gorff lled braich o Lywodraeth? Yn ddelfrydol, debyg mai'r Llywodraeth ddylai wneud o, ond oherwydd yn ymarferol nad ydyn ni'n ei weld o'n digwydd, ai'r ateb ydy symud tuag at rhyw strwythur newydd i wneud y gwaith hyrwyddo a hybu yna?

It's clear what your view is on the retention of the commissioner and moving forward to implement the legislation. But, in terms of these other aspects, which have, perhaps, gone missing, in your view—these responsibilities that were supposed to be delivered by the Government in terms of language planning and the strategic work, and that aspect of things—how do we move that work forward? If we don't have a commission, is there another way of doing it? Should that work remain within Government, or is there an argument for retaining the Commissioner but also creating some sort of arm's-length body from Government? Ideally, I suppose, it's the Government that should do this, but practically, because we haven't seen it happening, is the solution to move towards some new structure to do that promotional work?

10:50

Nid oes llawer o ots gen i, cyn belled a'i fod o'n cael ei wneud gan rywun. Mae'n rhaid i rywun ei wneud o. 

To be honest, I don't really mind, as long as somebody's doing it. Someone has to do it. 

Ond nid ydy o ddim yn digwydd ar y funud. 

But it's not being done at the moment. 

Wel, mater i'r Llywodraeth yw esbonio hynny. Rydw i yn credu bod yn rhaid ichi gael uned o fewn y Llywodraeth sydd yn crynhoi eich strategaethau chi. Sut y gallwch chi fod â'r targed o greu miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg? Mae pawb yn gwybod nad ydy hynny ddim yn mynd i ddigwydd fel mae pethau. Nid ydy cario ymlaen i wneud yr un peth yn yr un ffordd—. Nid yw dysgu ail iaith yn aneffeithiol—fel dysgu Ffrangeg; yn gwbl aneffeithiol—yn ein hysgolion ni ddim yn ffordd ymlaen, nac ydy? Felly, mae'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth ei hun fod ag uned strategol sydd yn gyrru—. Achos maen nhw'n sôn, er enghraifft, yn eu delfryd, am gefnogi'r economi o fewn y cymunedau Cymraeg, ac rydw i'n credu y buasen nhw'n dweud yr un peth am gymunedau tlawd hefyd. Wel, pwy sydd yn mynd i wneud hynny? Y Llywodraeth sydd â'r cyfrifoldeb i wneud hynny, felly mae'n rhaid i'r uned—. Ni allwch chi ddim rhoi honna allan—i beth? Creu WDA newydd? Wel, efallai mai dyna maen nhw'n mynd i'w wneud, nid ydw i'n gwybod, ond buaswn i'n tybio bod yn rhaid i'r Llywodraeth ei hun fod ag uned strategol sydd â throsolwg o holl waith y Llywodraeth os ydych chi eisiau cyrraedd y miliwn yma. Os ydych chi o ddifrif ynglŷn â chyrraedd y miliwn, mae'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth ei hun gymryd cyfrifoldeb, yn sicr o fewn y sector addysg. Mae'r Llywodraeth ei hun yn gorfod gyrru hynny efo cynllun cynhwysfawr, manwl.

O ran pethau mwy meddal fel y mentrau iaith ac yn y blaen, mae'r Comisiynydd eisoes, meddai hi yn ei hadroddiad, yn gwneud gwaith gwirfoddol, yn cefnogi busnesau ac yn cefnogi cyrff yn y trydydd sector. Felly, mae hi'n gwneud lot o'r gwaith yna'n barod. Mi allai hi fod yn ysgwyddo'r cyfrifoldebau mwy meddal hynny, neu gallwch chi greu rhywbeth arall os ydych chi eisiau. Ond, fel rydw i'n dweud, nid oes gen i ddim ateb i'r cwestiwn yna cyn belled a'i fod o'n cael ei wneud. Ond mae'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth yn y pen draw ysgwyddo'r cyfrifoldeb. Hi sydd wedi rhoi targed o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg, ac mi ddylai hwnnw fod yn darged wedyn dros lywodraethau'r dyfodol: rhywbeth y mae pob Llywodraeth o bob plaid yn ei gefnogi wrth fynd ymlaen. 

Well, that's a matter for the Government, isn't it? I do believe that you have to have a unit within Government that summarises all your strategies. How can you have a target of creating a million Welsh speakers? Everybody knows that won't happen as things stand, carrying on to do the same thing in the same way. Teaching Welsh as a second language is ineffective; it's like teaching French is completely ineffective in our schools. It's not the way forward. And, so, the Government itself has to bring in a strategic unit that drives it. They say, for example, in their ideal world that they would support the economy within Welsh speaking communities, and I'm sure they would say the same thing within poor communities as well. Well, who's going to do that? Well, it's the Government's responsibility, and, so, that unit can't be farmed out—to what? To create a new WDA? Well, perhaps that's what they want to do, I don't know, but I would imagine that the Government itself has to have a strategic unit that has an overview of all the governmental work if you want to attain these million speakers. If you're serious about that, then the Government itself has to take the responsibility, certainly within the education sector. The Government has to drive that with a detailed, comprehensive plan.

As regards the other things such as the mentrau iaith, the Commissioner says that she's already doing the work voluntarily of supporting businesses and the organisations in the third sector. So, she's doing a great deal of that work already. So, she could take on the softer duties, or you could create another entity, if you like. But as I say, I haven't got a solution to that question as long as it's done, but the Government, ultimately, has to take that responsibility. It has set that target of a million Welsh speakers and it should be a target for future governments: it should be something that every government of every party should support as they move on. 

Pa wersi sydd yna i'w dysgu o'r persbectif rhyngwladol? Rydych chi wedi sôn am Iwerddon, ond beth am Wlad y Basg, er enghraifft? 

What lessons could be learned from the international perspective? You've talked about Ireland, but what about the Basque Country, for example? 

Y cof sydd gen i ydy bod y gweision sifil wedi edrych ar arfer da mewn gwledydd eraill cyn llunio'r ddeddfwriaeth yma, ac, yn sicr, Gwlad y Basg ydy'r enghraifft orau o ran adfywio iaith nad oedd yn iaith fwyafrifol. Ac unwaith eto, addysg oedd eu prif arf nhw, fel rydw i'n deall. Ond nid ydy pethau'n berffaith yng Ngwlad y Basg; peidiwch â meddwl bod yna atebion hawdd yn hyn o beth. Mae grym y diwylliant Eingl-Americanaidd yn aruthrol, fel rydych chi wedi sôn am delegyfathrebu—mae'n aruthrol. Ac yng Ngwlad y Basg, Sbaeneg ydy o, ac mae Sbaeneg yn iaith ryngwladol, bwerus iawn, iawn. Ac, felly, nid ydy o'n hawdd trosi'r siaradwyr newydd yna i ddefnyddio'r Fasgeg hyd yn oed. Felly, mae hon yn broses tymor hir, mae'n fenter aruthrol, gyffrous iawn, iawn, iawn, a fel yna y dylem ni edrych arni. Yn bendant, dylech chi edrych ar Wlad y Basg, ond hefyd lle mae yna arfer da mewn llefydd eraill i weld beth sydd yn bosib i'w wneud. 

My recollection is that the civil servants did look at best practice in other countries before coming up with this legislation. Certainly, the Basque Country is the best example from the point of view of language regeneration of a language that wasn't a majority language. Once again, education was their main tool, as I understand it. But things aren't perfect in the Basque Country. Don't believe that there are simple solutions there: the power of the Anglo-American culture is exceptionally powerful. And in the Basque Country, the neighbouring language is, of course, Spanish and that is an extremely powerful language. It's not easy to change those speakers into Basque speakers, and, so, it's a long-term venture and a very exciting one, and that's how we should view it. And, certainly, you should look at the Basque Country but also you should look at good practice in other places.

A oes gennych chi syniad sut mae Gwlad y Basg wedi bod mor llwyddiannus? Roeddech chi'n sôn am addysg, ond a ydy o'n fater o ewyllys? 

Do you have any understanding of why the Basque Country has been so successful? You talked about education, but is it a matter of will?

Commitment gwleidyddol ydy o. Mi roedd yna lywodraethau a oedd yn glymbleidiau—nhw ddaru ddechrau'r broses yma, ac mae'r broses wedi para yn weddol gyson ers hynny, er bod yna newidiadau wedi bod yn lliw'r Llywodraeth. Nid ydw i'n gwybod yn fanwl, ond mi roedd o dros dymor hir, a dyna'r peth pwysig, onid e? Nid rhywbeth dros dymor llywodraeth ydy hwn; mae'n rhaid i'r—. Mewn gwirionedd, mae'n rhaid i'r Cynulliad i gyd fod yn hapus bod hwn yn gynllun a fydd yn para ymlaen dros ddegawdau, mewn gwirionedd.

It's political commitment. There were governments, they were coalition governments, and they began this process, and the process has continued relatively consistently, although there have been changes in the leadership of the governments. I don't know about that in detail, but it was a long-term thing. In fact, the Assembly has to be happy that this is a long-term plan, lasting over decades.

10:55

Yes. I think, strangely enough, in my own party I've argued for nearly 20 years that we needed a very clear strategy of how to make Wales a bilingual country—i.e. get towards 50 per cent of the population as a minimum, and this is a century project, possibly. It seems to me what you do need—and you said this earlier: that one of your disappointments is that the whole sense of strategic development in the Welsh Government is being lost; they don't have a unit that's clearly looking at this, and that capacity and ambition is not there. So, we have a policy to have a million Welsh speakers, which, I think, would be the highest number of Welsh speakers ever—in absolute terms anyway—but it doesn't seem to me that there's much idea, in language recovery, how you would do that. We have, basically, a stable position today—the numbers are at about 20 per cent—as a result of educational reforms that started in the 1980s to make it much easier to access Welsh language primary school education, and that was largely inadvertent. I think people at the time were given—. You know, the Government—. There were huge educational reforms in the 1980s, and they gave this right to have your children educated in the Welsh medium, probably thinking that not many English-speaking parents would choose it. Of course, what happened was that there was a cultural shift, and a lot of English-speaking parents, especially perhaps where parents were split, with one English and one Welsh speaker—they chose that. Now, we need to develop a strategy that, with much more forethought, possibly, and intention, takes the nation forward. Isn't this one of the great projects we have—to retain Welsh as a fully-functioning language? It's one of the achievements of Europe, so far, in the last two millennia. If this generation, and the next couple that follow it, don't do it, then this situation is quite bleak. As our research paper indicated, the number of languages in real stress around the world is ever-increasing. So, why isn't that strategic thinking there, if this great ambition—or at least the first step—is there to make us properly bilingual?

That's not a question, David; that's a peroration. [Laughter.]

Ond rydw i'n cytuno 100 y cant efo'r hyn yr ydych chi'n ei ddweud. Mae yna shifft wedi digwydd, yn rhannol oherwydd bod pobl wedi dewis shifft o fewn byd addysg, a bod llywodraeth leol—weithiau yn wirfoddol, a weithiau ddim mor wirfoddol—wedi ymateb iddo fo. Ac mae'r Llywodraeth wedi ymateb iddo fo hefyd, yn y pen draw. Felly, mae yna lot ohono fo wedi digwydd, ond mewn gwirionedd, nid oes yna gynllunio priodol wedi ei wneud yn y maes hwnnw ar raddfa genedlaethol. Rydych chi'n hollol iawn bod angen inni weld cynllun. Oherwydd fel yr oeddwn i'n ei ddweud, un peth ydy ymateb i'r galw mewn lle fel Caerdydd, ond mae yna broblemau pur dyrys y tu allan i Gaerdydd, er bod yna arwyddion gobeithiol. Ond i wneud hynny, mae'n rhaid ichi gael gweithlu sydd yn gallu gwneud y gwaith. Mae yna beryg mawr, os nad oes gan athrawon y sgiliau priodol, a bod yna ethos briodol yn yr ysgol, y gall ysgol gyfrwng Cymraeg fod yn arwynebol lwyddiannus ond, mewn gwirionedd, ddim yn cyflawni ei gwaith. Mae yna enghreifftiau gwych ar hyd a lled Cymru o ran y sector uwchradd. Mae ysgol Gwynllyw, er enghraifft—nid wyf yn dweud ei bod hi'n unigryw, ond mae'n sefyll allan fel ysgol sydd, rywsut neu'i gilydd, yn cynhyrchu siaradwyr dwyieithog rhugl, hyderus, ac y mae hynny'n ymwneud ag ethos yr ysgol. Rydych chi angen y math yna o ethos mewn ysgolion—ym mhob un ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg—achos nid ydyw'n hawdd, yn enwedig pan fo mwyafrif llethol y plant yn dod o gefndir di-Gymraeg. Felly, mae'n rhaid ichi—mae'n rhaid i'r staff, y pennaeth, a'r holl wasanaethau cefnogol fod yn glir iawn sut y mae cyflawni'r dasg yma. I wneud hynny, mae'n rhaid ichi gael gweledigaeth glir iawn, iawn o'r canol, byddwn i'n ei ddadlau. Nid oes gan y cynghorau sir, ar hyn o bryd, yr adnoddau na'r arbenigedd i sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd.

I agree 100 per cent with what you say. There's been a shift, partly because people have chosen that shift within education, and because local government—sometimes voluntarily, and sometimes not so voluntarily—have responded to it. And the Government have responded to it too, ultimately. So, much of it has happened, but in reality, there has been no appropriate planning carried out in that area on a national scale. You're entirely right that we need to see a plan. Because, as I've said, it's one thing to respond to demand in an area such as Cardiff, but there are some complex problems outwith Cardiff, although there are hopeful signs. But to do that, you have to have a workforce that is appropriate. There is a huge risk, if teachers don't have the appropriate skills, and if there isn't the appropriate ethos within the school, that a Welsh-medium school could be very superficially successful, but in reality, not achieving its objectives. There are excellent examples the length and breadth of Wales in the secondary sector. Ysgol Gyfun Gwynllyw, for example—I'm not saying it's unique, but it stands out as a school that, one way or another, produces bilingual confident, fluent speakers, and that is all about the ethos of the school. You need that kind of ethos in all schools—all the Welsh-medium schools—because it's not easy, particularly when the vast majority of the pupils come from non-Welsh speaking backgrounds. So, the staff, the head and all of the support services must be very clear as to how they achieve that task. To do that, you have to have a very clear vision from the centre, I would argue. The county councils, at the moment, don't have the resources or the expertise to ensure that that happens.

11:00

Grêt. Mae'n rhaid inni orffen y sesiwn nawr. Rydym ni ar amser, felly diolch yn fawr iawn am fod gyda ni y bore yma. Mae'n siŵr y byddwch chi'n cymryd diddordeb yng ngweddill yr ymchwiliad. Os oes unrhyw gwestiynau ychwanegol, byddwn ni'n ysgrifennu atoch chi, os yw hynny'n iawn.

Great. We have to bring this session to a close. We are on time, so thank you very much for coming to see us this morning. I'm sure that you will take an interest in the remainder of the inquiry. If we have any additional questions, we'll write to you, if that's okay.

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi.

Okay. Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod i mewn. Byddwn ni'n cymryd seibiant o ddwy funud. Diolch.

Thank you for coming today. We'll now take a two-minute break. Thank you.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:00 a 11:07.

The meeting adjourned between 11:00 and 11:07.

11:05
3. Cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg - ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi ac yn ehangach: Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2
3. Supporting and promoting the Welsh Language - an inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 2

Grêt, diolch yn fawr iawn. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 3: cefnogi a hybu’r Gymraeg—ein hymchwiliad i mewn i’r iaith a goblygiadau Mesur 2011 ac i’r hyn sydd yn mynd i ddigwydd i’r dyfodol. Croeso i’n tystion: Meri Huws, sef Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, a hefyd Dyfan Sion, cyfarwyddwr strategol. Croeso mawr atom heddiw eto.

Rydym ni wedi clywed yn barod—fel rydych chi wedi, yn siŵr—lot o gyfeiriadau at waith y comisiynydd yn hynny o beth, a hoffwn i jest ofyn cwestiwn i gychwyn o ran eich meddylfryd chi o ran beth oedd wedi digwydd ar y pryd o ran creu swydd y comisiynydd gyda Mesur 2011, ac efallai eich barn chi ynglŷn â’r newid, wedyn, o 1993 yn symud at y broses hynny.

Great, thank you very much. We'll move on to item 3: supporting and promoting the Welsh language—our inquiry into the legislative policy and wider context of the 2011 Measure and what will happen for the future. We welcome our witnesses: Meri Huws, the Welsh Language Commissioner, and Dyfan Sion, the strategic director. A very warm welcome to you once again.

We've already heard, as I'm sure you're aware, many references to the work of the commissioner this morning, and I'd just like to ask the first question in terms of your thinking as to what happened at the time when the commissioner's role was created through the 2011 Measure, and your view, perhaps, on that shift from the 1993 Act towards that process and the 2011 Measure.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr am y croeso. Nid wyf yn siŵr iawn fy mod i wedi cael gymaint o build-up erioed cyn ymddangos o flaen pwyllgor gan y rhagflaenydd a oedd yn rhoi tystiolaeth. [Chwerthin.]

Reit, o edrych yn ôl i ddeddfwriaeth 1993 a’r hyn yr oedd 1993 yn ei wneud, rydw i’n credu bod angen inni gydnabod pwysigrwydd deddfwriaeth 1993. Roedd hi’n sylweddol bwysig—darn o ddeddfwriaeth San Steffan a oedd yn rhoi cyfrifoldebau ar gyrff cyhoeddus yng Nghymru i gynnig gwasanaethau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg trwy gynlluniau iaith.

Ar yr un pryd, sefydlwyd Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg—mi ddylwn i ddatgan diddordeb: mi oeddwn i’n aelod o’r Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg cyntaf yn 1993, o dan gadeiryddiaeth Dafydd Elis-Thomas—a’r corff yna’n cael ei sefydlu er mwyn gwneud dau beth, yn y bôn, o ran cynllunio iaith: cymeradwyo’r cynlluniau iaith a chytuno ar y cynlluniau iaith, a delio â chwynion. Nid oedd y bwrdd yn gallu rheoleiddio, gorfodi a monitro, a thros y blynyddoedd mi ddaeth hynny'n wendid amlwg. Nid oedd modd delio â methiannau o ran cynlluniau iaith. So, os oedden nhw’n bodoli a bod yna ddim cydymffurfiaeth â’r cynlluniau iaith yna, roedd yn anodd iawn, iawn i Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg ymyrryd mewn unrhyw ffordd a oedd yn creu newid. A dyna, rydw i'n credu, oedd un o’r prif ffactorau a oedd yn gyrru y galw am ddeddfwriaeth erbyn 2008-9, a wnaeth arwain at Fesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011. Un peth arall: rydw i'n credu ein bod ni’n anghofio nad oedd deddfwriaeth 1993 yn rhoi statws swyddogol i’r iaith Gymraeg. Mi oedd yna gydnabyddiaeth o gyfartaledd, ond nid oedd yna ddatganiad clir ynglŷn â statws swyddogol. Ac rydw i yn credu bod Mesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011 yn delio â hynny hefyd.

Beth sydd wedi digwydd gyda Mesur y Gymraeg, felly, yw sefydlu Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, yn gorfforaeth un dyn, neu’n gorfforaeth un person, sydd â phwerau, wedi i safonau gael eu gosod trwy reoliadau, i osod y safonau hynny ar gyrff cyhoeddus, i ddelio â chwynion, i fonitro cydymffurfiaeth, ac—nid wyf i’n licio’r gair, ond mi wnaf i ei ddefnyddio fe—i orfodi cydymffurfiaeth, i sicrhau bod cyrff cyhoeddus yn gweithredu o fewn y safonau.

Rydw i yn credu, fel rydym wedi’i ddweud yn y dystiolaeth, ein bod wedi gweld cynnydd. Ar ôl cyfnod byr o amser—ac mae yn gyfnod byr o amser gyda gweithredu deddfwriaeth—rydym wedi gweld newid ar lawr gwlad o ran argaeledd gwasanaethau a chysondeb gwasanaethau, achos rydw i'n credu bod hynny'n bwysig hefyd. Mi oedd pob cynllun iaith yn unigryw i'r corff. Felly, ar un adeg, rydw i'n credu bod rhywbeth fel 550 o gynlluniau iaith gwahanol yn bodoli yng Nghymru. Wel, fel defnyddiwr gwasanaethau, roedd angen i fi fynd i ddarllen 550 o gynlluniau iaith cyn fy mod i'n gwybod pa wasanaeth y gallwn i ddisgwyl oddi wrth gorff arbennig.

Mae e wedi creu y comisiynydd fel y person sy'n gallu rheoleiddio. Mae e wedi creu newid, a beth mae e wedi ei wneud hefyd yw creu elfen o gysondeb ar draws sefydliadau. Ac un peth arall—ac rydw i'n siŵr y down ni nôl i drafod eto beth sydd wedi digwydd oddi ar gyflwyno'r Mesur—mae'r Mesur yn gosod safonau ar sectorau, ac i'ch atgoffa chi: awdurdodau lleol, Llywodraeth Cymru, parciau cenedlaethol, heddluoedd Cymru, gwasanaethau brys Cymru, colegau addysg bellach Cymru, prifysgolion Cymru, tribiwnlysoedd Cymru, a diolch byth, erbyn hyn mae cyrff iechyd Cymru yn gweithredu o dan y safonau. Un o fanteision safonau sectorol yw bod cyrff yn gallu gweithio gyda'i gilydd, rhannu arfer da, a deall, ar y cyd, beth yw'r galw yma sydd ei angen arnom ni. Rŷm ni'n sicr wedi gweld hynny gyda—un sydd wedi fy nharo i yw heddluoeddd, lle maen nhw'n cydweithio fel heddluoedd yng Nghymru i gyrraedd y safonau.

Fe wnaf i orffen yn fanna, ond rydw i yn credu bod deddfwriaeth 2011, Mesur y Gymraeg, yn delio â'r gwendidau a amlygwyd gan Ddeddf 1993. Roedd Deddf 1993 yn bwysig ac mae 2011 yn gam ymlaen, a dyna y dylem ni fod yn ei wneud gyda deddfwriaeth—camu ymlaen.

Okay. Thank you for your welcome. I'm not sure whether I've ever had such a build-up before appearing before this committee, given the previous witness's comments. [Laughter.]

Right, in looking back to the 1993 legislation and what that legislation did, I think we have to recognise the importance of the 1993 Act. It was substantial—a piece of Westminster legislation that placed responsibilities on public bodies in Wales to provide services through the medium of Welsh through the language schemes.

Simultaneously, the Welsh Language Board was established—and I should declare an interest: I was a member of the first Welsh Language Board in 1993, chaired by Dafydd Elis-Thomas—and that body was created in order to do two things, essentially, in terms of language planning: to approve the language schemes and to deal with complaints. The board could not enforce, monitor or regulate, and over the years that became a clear weakness. The board couldn't deal with failings in relation to language schemes, so if they did exist, and there was no compliance with those language schemes, then it was very difficult for the Welsh Language Board to intervene in any way that would generate change. And that, I think, was one of the main factors driving the demand for legislation by 2008-9, which led to the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. One other thing that I think we forget is that the 1993 legislation didn't give official status to the Welsh language. There was recognition of equality, but there wasn't a clear declaration as to the official status of the language. And I do think that the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 dealt with that issue too.

What’s happened with the Welsh language Measure, therefore, is the establishment of the Welsh Language Commissioner as a corporation sole, which has powers, once standards are created through regulations, to impose those standards on public bodies, to deal with complaints, to monitor compliance, and—I don’t like the term, but I’ll use it—to enforce compliance, to ensure that public bodies do operate within standards.

I do believe, as we've stated in the evidence provided to you, we have seen progress. We have, after a relatively short period of time—and it is a short period of time since the implementation of the Measure—we have seen a change on the ground in terms of the availability of services and the consistency of those services, because I think that’s important too. Every language scheme was unique to the body, therefore at one time I think there were some 550 different Welsh language schemes in existence in Wales. Well, as a service user, I would have to read 550 language schemes before I knew what services I could expect from a particular body.

It has created the role of commissioner as the individual with responsibility for regulation. It has generated change, and what it’s also done is to create an element of consistency across organisations. And one other thing—and I’m sure we’ll return to discuss what’s happened since the introduction of the Measure—the Measure imposes standards on sectors, and to remind you: local authorities, the Welsh Government, the national parks, Welsh police forces, emergency services, further education colleges in Wales, universities in Wales, tribunals in Wales, and thank goodness, now health bodies in Wales are all operating under standards. One of the benefits of sectoral standards is that bodies can work together, they can share good practice, and they can come to a joint understanding of the demand that they need to meet, and we’ve certainly seen that happening with—. One thing that struck me is the police forces, where they do collaborate as Welsh police forces to attain those standards.

I will conclude there, but I do think that the 2011 legislation, the Welsh language Measure, does deal with the weaknesses highlighted in the 1993 Act. The 1993 Act was important and 2011 is a step forward, and that’s what we should be doing through legislation—taking steps forward.

11:10

Byddwn ni yn dod at y cwestiynau am y ddeddfwriaeth, ond, jest yn glou, mae'r cwestiwn nesaf gen i ynglŷn â chwmpas y Mesur. Rydym yn clywed ei fod, efallai, yn rhy gyfyng neu wedi'i adael yn rhy eang. Mae pobl wahanol yn dweud pethau gwahanol. I ddod yn ôl at y cwestiwn a gawsom yn y sesiwn ddiwethaf o ran hyrwyddo a hwyluso, fe wnes i ddarllen yn eich tystiolaeth chi—ac roedd yn ddiddorol i fi ei glywed am y tro cyntaf—eich bod yn gweld safonau fel rhan o'r cysyniad yma o hyrwyddo ynddo'i hun. Felly, sut ydych chi'n gweld eich rôl chi yn hynny o beth, ac a ydych yn cytuno, efallai, gydag Alun Ffred Jones, sy'n dweud, 'Wel, actually, mae rhelyw o'r gwaith hynny i fod i gael ei wneud gan Lywodraeth Cymru, felly nhw ddylai fod yn atebol am hynny'?

We will be coming to the questions about legislation, but, just quickly, the next question that I have is about the scope of the Measure. We hear that it, perhaps, was too restricted or that it was too narrow, or maybe that it was too broad. Different people say different things. But to return to the question that was asked at the last session, namely about promotion of the language, I read in your evidence, which was interesting for me to hear for the first time, that you view standards as part of this concept of promotion in itself. So, how do you view your role in that, and do you, perhaps, agree with Alun Ffred Jones who says, ‘Well, actually, the majority of that work should be done by Welsh Government, so they should be accountable for that’?

Reit, mae sawl cwestiwn yn fanna—

There are a number of questions there—

—ond cawn ni ddechrau gyda'r cwestiynau ynglŷn ag a yw'r ddeddfwriaeth bresennol yn rhy gyfyng, y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Nid oes unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth yn berffaith. Nid ydw i'n credu ein bod wedi cyrraedd y pwynt yna eto yn y byd lle rŷm ni'n gwybod beth yw deddfwriaeth berffaith, ond mae sgôp y ddeddfwriaeth yma yn eang. O ran y comisiynydd, rydw i wedi sôn ynglŷn â phwerau delio â safonau—y gorfodi a delio â chwynion—ond mae Rhan 2 y Mesur hefyd yn dweud yn glir y gall y comisiynydd gymryd unrhyw gamau i hybu a hwyluso defnydd o'r Gymraeg, ac mae Rhan 2 yn rhestru'r pethau y gallwn ni eu gwneud, ymysg pethau eraill: gwneud gwaith ymchwil, cyhoeddi adroddiadau. Rydym wedi gwneud gwaith ymchwil mewn sawl maes—rydw i'n credu bod y maes gofal sylfaenol iechyd yn un rydw i'n falch ohono fe, lle rŷm ni wedi gwneud darn o waith sylweddol. Fe wnaethom ni gyhoeddi adroddiad yn dilyn hynny. Mi allwn ni gynnig cyngor i Lywodraeth neu unrhyw gorff arall, ac rŷm ni wedi gwneud hynny nid yn unig yn y maes iechyd—rŷm ni wedi ei wneud e o ran addysg, rŷm ni wedi ei wneud e o ran cynllunio, rŷm ni wedi ei wneud e o ran gofal cymdeithasol hefyd, lle rŷm ni wedi cynnig cyngor i Lywodraeth ac eraill. Mi allwn ni roi grantiau. Mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yn caniatáu i Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg roi grant. Nid yw'r gyllideb yn caniatáu i ni wneud hynny, ond mae'r pwerau yna i wneud hynny hefyd.

Felly, rydw i yn credu bod yna le a sgôp o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol, achos deddfwriaeth fframwaith yw hi, sy'n caniatáu. Mae yna le i gryfhau'r elfen hybu a hwyluso'r comisiynydd. Ond gadawn ni gofio hefyd beth arall mae'r Mesur yn ei wneud. Mae Mesur 2011 yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru gael strategaeth o ran yr iaith Gymraeg, ac rydw i yn credu gyda strategaeth iaith Gymraeg, sy'n ofynnol o dan y Mesur, a hefyd o ran strategaethau eraill sy'n eistedd o dan hynny, fel strategaeth addysg y Llywodraeth, dyna le mae gyrrwr y newid arall yna yn digwydd. So, felly, o ateb y cwestiwn, 'A ydy sgôp y Mesur yma yn ddigonol?' Ydy, ac rydw i yn credu bod angen manteisio ar hynny.

Y drydedd elfen, rydw i'n credu, sy'n bwysig o ran edrych ar hybu a hwyluso: prif strategaeth y Llywodraeth, ond hefyd y galw sydd ar awdurdodau lleol eu hunain o dan y safonau i gael cynlluniau hybu'r Gymraeg yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain. Mae yna ofyn statudol iddyn nhw ei wneud, ac mae yna dystiolaeth—

—but let’s start with that question as to whether the current legislation is too narrow. No legislation is perfect. I don’t think we’ve reached that point where we know what perfect legislation looks like, but the scope of this legislation is broad. In terms of the commissioner, I’ve talked about the powers in dealing with standards—the enforcement and the complaints procedures—but Part 2 of the Measure states clearly that the commissioner can take any steps to promote and facilitate the use of the Welsh language, and Part 2 lists the things that we can do, among other things: research, publication of reports. We have carried out research in a number of areas—I think primary care and health is one that I’m very proud of, where we have carried out a substantial piece of work. We published a report following that research. We can provide advice to Government or to any other body, and we've done that, not only in health—we've done it in education, planning and social care, too, where we have provided advice to Government and to others. We could provide grants. The legislation allows the commissioner to provide grants. The budget doesn't allow us to do that, but the powers are there to do that.

So, I do think that there is scope within the current legislation, because it's framework legislation, which permits things to happen and is enabling. So, there is scope to strengthen the promotional work of the commissioner. But let's remember what the Measure does. The 2011 Measure asks the Welsh Government to put in place a strategy for the Welsh language, and I do think that the strategy that is required under the Measure and in terms of other strategies that would sit below that, such as the Government's education strategy, that's where the driver for change is. So, in responding to the question as to whether the scope of this Measure is sufficient, well, yes, it is, and I do think that we need to take full advantage of that.

The third element that I think is important in terms of facilitation and promotion: the main strategy of Government, yes, but also the demand on local authorities themselves under standards to have Welsh language promotion schemes in their own areas. There is a statutory requirement for them to have those, and there is evidence—

11:15

A ydych chi wedi gwneud asesiad o hynny?

Have you carried out an assessment of that?

Ydym, ac mi fyddwn ni gyhoeddi hwnnw. Mae e wedi cael ei wneud. Mae e wedi'i bennu. Mi fyddwn ni gyhoeddi'r canlyniadau a chyngor sy'n deillio o hwnnw i'r awdurdodau lleol yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf. Mae'n barod i fynd.

Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol wedi serennu. Nid yn aml rydw i'n ei ddweud, ond mae yna ambell esiampl arbennig, ac mae ambell un sydd yn dlotach. Ond—.

Yes, and we will publish that. It has been carried out. It's been concluded, and we will be publishing the outcomes and the advice emerging from that to local authorities over the next few weeks. It's ready to go.

Some local authorities have been exceptional. I don't often say it, but there are some excellent examples and there are some that are not so positive. But—.

Gwnawn ni edrych ymlaen at gael hwnnw. Siân Gwenllian.

We'll look forward to seeing that. Siân Gwenllian.

O fewn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol, felly, a ydych chi—? Rydych chi'n dweud bod hybu a hwyluso o fewn sgôp, ond beth am y trosolwg strategol a chynllunio ieithyddol, a'r gwaith lefel uchel yna sydd ei angen i ddod â phopeth ynghyd? A ydy hynny o fewn sgôp eich gwaith chi fel comisiynydd?

Within the present legislation, you say that promotion and facilitation are within the scope, but what about the strategic overview and the language planning, and that high-level work that is required to bring everything together? Is that within the scope of your work as a commissioner?

Buaswn i yn dadlau, o ran yr elfen yna, strategaeth y Llywodraeth ddylai hynny fod. Rydw i'n credu, fel clywsom ni oddi wrth y tyst a oedd yn rhoi tystiolaeth yn gynt, ond rhywbeth rŷm ni'n ei gredu: Llywodraeth yw gyrrwr y strategaeth yn ei chyfanrwydd. Mae gwahanol asiantaethau yn gallu cyfrannu a chwarae rôl o fewn i hynny, ond strategaeth y Llywodraeth yw ar y lefel ymbarél uchel yna. Ond mae yna le i ni, a rôl y comisiynydd, fod yn flaenllaw yn hynny, ac rydw i yn gredwr cryf nad yw rheoleiddio a hybu o fewn corff yn wrthdaro; mae'n ddwy ochr o'r un geiniog.

I would argue that, in terms of that element, then that should be the Government strategy. As we heard from your earlier witness, the Government is the driver of the strategy as a whole. There are various agencies that can contribute and play a role within that, but it's the Government strategy at that umbrella level, that high level, that overarching level. So, we as a commission have a prominent role in that, and I do believe that regulation and promotion within one organisation isn't a conflict—it's two sides of the same coin.

Good morning. In this age of austerity it's hard to find a civil servant or public body that doesn't say, 'If only we had more money', but that doesn't feel like a very realistic line of inquiry, so I'd be keen to understand how you've managed to collaborate with other relevant organisations in the work in promoting and facilitating the language.

Rydw i'n mynd i drosglwyddo i Dyfan Sion, y cyfarwyddwr strategol sydd â chyfrifoldeb am y tîm bach sy'n ymwneud â hybu, ond, cyn bo fi'n ei wneud, a gaf i ddod nôl at rywbeth y gwnaeth y Cadeirydd sôn amdano yn ein tystiolaeth ni? Rydw i yn credu bod safonau yn ffordd o hybu, hefyd. Rydw i yn credu bod rhoi disgwyliadau ar sefydliadau yn rhan o greu gwasanaethau, ac mae gwneud hynny mewn ffordd fel, gobeithio, rydym ni yn ei wneud erbyn hyn, lle rŷm ni'n gweithio gyda nhw yn agos i greu gwasanaethau sydd yn fodern, yn gyfoes ac yn ddwyieithog, i greu gwasanaethau sydd yn fodern, yn gyfoes ac yn ddwyieithog yn ffordd o hybu a hwyluso. Ond drosodd atat ti, Dyfan. 

I will hand over to Dyfan Sion, the strategic director with responsibility for the small team dealing with promotion, but before I do that, may I return to something the Chair mentioned in relation to our own evidence? I do believe that standards are also a means of promotion. I think placing expectations on organisations is part of creating service change, and doing that in the way I hope we are doing, where we work very closely with the bodies involved to create services that are modern and bilingual, is a way of promoting and facilitating. But it's over to you, Dyfan. 

11:20

Ie, diolch. Mi oedd y cwestiwn yn cyfeirio at gydweithio yn benodol, ac yn sicr rydym ni yn gweld cydweithio fel ffordd dda o allu dylanwadu efo llai o adnoddau, llai o gyllid. Jest i roi cwpwl o enghreifftiau i chi ynglŷn â hynny: mi wnaeth Meri gyfeirio at y tîm hybu sydd gennym ni. Eu prif rôl nhw ydy gweithio efo busnesau ac elusennau, felly'r sector preifat a'r trydydd sector. Cwpwl o bethau maen nhw wedi ei wneud yn ddiweddar: o ran y maes chwaraeon, mae yna gydweithio da wedi bod efo Chwaraeon Cymru ar fodiwl ar-lein ar gyfer annog hyfforddwyr a gwirfoddolwyr i wneud mwy o ddefnydd o'r Gymraeg. Felly, mae'r cydweithio yna wedi bod yn dda. A drwy gydweithio hefyd efo Chwaraeon Cymru, rydym ni wedi gallu cael mynediad wedyn at gyrff chwaraeon fel Undeb Rygbi Cymru, cyrff pêl-droed a chriced hefyd.

Enghraifft arall ddiddorol, o bosibl, ydy bod y tîm yn gwneud lot o waith hyfforddi, felly cynnal sesiynau hyfforddiant efo busnesau ac elusennau eto. Diben y sesiynau hyfforddiant yna ydy cynghori unigolion a chyrff ynglŷn â sut y gallan nhw gwneud mwy o ddefnydd o'r Gymraeg, a beth rydym ni wedi ei wneud ydy cydweithio efo cyrff fel Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru, sydd wedyn yn ein galluogi ni i gael at wirfoddolwyr y mudiadau maen nhw yn cydweithio efo nhw. Ac rydym ni hefyd wedi cydweithio efo cyrff eraill fel y Gronfa Loteri Fawr, er enghraifft. Felly, yn sicr, mae'r cydweithio yna'n bwysig.

Elfen arall o'n gwaith ni hefyd ydy ein bod ni'n ceisio cynnull fforymau gwahanol ynghyd. Felly, dwy enghraifft i chi: mae gennym ni fforwm banciau a fforwm archfarchnadoedd hefyd—cyrff sydd ddim yn dod o dan unrhyw ddyletswyddau iaith ar hyn o bryd. Beth mae'r fforymau yna yn ein galluogi ni i'w wneud ydy trafod arfer da efo'r cwmnïau a thrafod problemau sy'n codi hefyd, diffygion. Ac mae o'n gyfle, oherwydd eu bod nhw'n fforymau sectorol, i ddod i fyny efo atebion sydd efallai yn berthnasol i ni i gyd. Mae yna le i wella, yn sicr, ond, os edrychwn ni ar archfarchnadoedd fel un enghraifft, yn sicr, mae arwyddion, datganiadau sain, a pheiriannau hunan-wasanaeth sydd ar gael yn Gymraeg erbyn hyn—mae yna gynnydd aruthrol wedi bod dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ac rydw i'n meddwl bod cydweithio a fforymau tebyg yn hwyluso hynny.     

Yes, thank you. The question referred to collaboration specifically. and certainly we view collaboration or partnership working as a way of working with fewer resources, less funding. Just to give you a couple of examples of that, Meri referred to the team working on promoting the language and their work with the private sector and the third sector. A couple of things that they've been doing recently: for example, with sport, there's been very good collaboration with Sport Wales on an online module to encourage trainers and coaches to make more use of the Welsh language. That's worked really well. And, by collaborating with Sport Wales, we can then get access to the sport organisations such as the WRU, and the football and cricket organisations.

Another interesting example is that the team does a great deal of training work, and they hold training sessions with businesses and charities once again. The purpose of these training sessions is to advise bodies and individuals on how to make greater use of the Welsh language, and what we've done is collaborate with bodies such as the WCVA. That then enables us to get to the volunteers and the organisations that they collaborate with, and we've also worked with bodies such as the Big Lottery Fund. So, certainly, that partnership working is very important. 

Another element of our work is trying to convene various forums. Two examples: we have a banking forum and a supermarket forum, too—organisations that don't come under any language stipulations at the moment. What these forums allow us to do is to discuss good practice with the companies and the problems and issues that they're facing. It is an opportunity, because they're sectoral forums, to come up with solutions that are relevant to us all. There's definitely room for improvement, but, if we look at the supermarkets as one example, then certainly signage, announcements and self-service machines that are now available in Welsh—there's been a great deal of progress made over the past few years, and I think that collaboration and similar forums facilitate that.  

A gaf i hefyd jest ategu? Rydw i'n credu bod y gwaith rŷm ni wedi ei wneud gyda'r cyrff yna wedi'n helpu ni gyda'r gwaith safonau hefyd, achos mae yna safonau sydd wedi cael eu gosod ar gyrff sydd yn ymwneud â pheiriannau hunan-wasanaeth, sut mae rhywun yn cofrestru dewis iaith, ac mae hynny wedi bod yn heriol. Mae wedi bod yn heriol. A beth rŷm ni wedi gallu ei fwydo i fewn i'r drafodaeth yna trwy ein hymwneud ni gyda'r banciau—mae ambell i fanc sydd yn gweithredu tu fas i Gymru ac yn gweithredu tu fas i Brydain—yw sut maen nhw wedi creu'r feddalwedd i allu dal y wybodaeth yna'n glou, a chreu y cyswllt wedyn rhwng y gwaith hwnnw a'r gwaith safonau. Rydw i'n credu bod honno yn esiampl lle mae hybu, hwyluso a rheoleiddio o ran arfer da yn gallu gweithio ar y cyd. 

May I just also add? I think that the work that we've done with those organisations has helped us with our standards work too, because there are standards that have been imposed that relate to self-service machines, how one registers language of choice, and that's been challenging. It has been challenging. What we've been able to feed into that discussion through our engagement with the banks—some banks that are operating Wales and outside the UK—is we've looked at how they've created the software in order to capture that information quickly, and created that link between that work and the standards work that we do. So, I think that's an example of where promotion, facilitation and regulation can work together well in terms of good practice.  

Okay. Picking up on what Alun Ffred was saying earlier, I wondered if you could just tell us how you've worked with the pedagogical community to ensure that we have—. You know, if we're going to push forward with increasing the number of Welsh speakers, we have to have a quality workforce able to teach through the medium of Welsh, and it seems to me to be one of the sticking points that we all recognise. So, could you just tell us a bit about your work there?   

Reit. Yn gyntaf, rydw i'n credu ei bod yn bwysig pwysleisio bod strategaeth addysg gwlad yn nwylo'r Llywodraeth, ac rydw i'n credu bod yn rhaid i ni gydnabod pwysigrwydd hynny. Nid osgoi unrhyw gyfrifoldeb yw hynny. Ond, wedi dweud hynny, un o'r pethau sydd wedi dod yn amlwg i ni yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf—wel, i fi yn sicr—yw yr angen yna am weithlu. Wrth bod safonau yn dod yn weithredol, rŷm ni yn creu sefyllfa lle mae cyrff cyhoeddus—. Mae 103 ohonyn nhw nawr yng Nghymru yn darparu gwasanaethau. Mae angen pobl arnyn nhw—ar dderbynfeydd, yn ateb ffôn, yn cynnig gwasanaeth wyneb yn wyneb yn y maes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol—a'r heddluoedd yn arbennig ar hyn o bryd. Mae Heddlu De Cymru dros yr haf wedi hysbysebu 25 o swyddi lle roedd y Gymraeg yn hanfodol. Felly, mae adnabod yr angen yn digwydd. Beth rŷm ni wedi bod yn ei wneud, o weld yr angen yna'n tyfu, yw gweithio gyda cholegau addysg bellach, ColegauCymru yn arbennig, a'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n ymwybodol o le mae'r galw a bwydo hwnnw trwyddo i'w sefydliadau nhw.

Un darn o waith a wnaethom ni ar ddechrau'r haf oedd darn o waith gyda'r Ffederasiwn Hyfforddiant Cenedlaethol Cymru ar brentisiaethau a'r galw a'r angen sydd yna i gryfhau'r fframwaith prentisiaethau yng Nghymru i sicrhau ein bod ni'n creu gweithwyr dwyieithog. Mae hwnnw wedi cael ei gyflwyno i'r Llywodraeth ac mae wedi cael ei rannu gan NTFW a CholegauCymru. Felly, beth rŷm ni'n ei wneud—y rôl rŷm ni'n ei chwarae—yw codi ymwybyddiaeth, gweithio gyda'r cyrff yma wedyn i ddylanwadu ar y Llywodraeth, ond hefyd i ddylanwadu ar ddarparwyr addysg i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n ymateb i'r galw yma am weithlu dwyieithog.

Dim ond ddoe ges i gyfarfod gyda chorff achredu mawr sydd yn gweithredu y tu allan i Gymru yn trafod yr union fater yma—sut mae creu gweithlu dwyieithog. So, dyna'r berthynas sydd gyda ni: un o ddarparu tystiolaeth, gweld lle mae'r angen ac wedyn trio gweithio ar y cyd i ymateb i'r angen yna.

Right. First of all, I do believe that it's important to emphasise that a nation's education strategy is in the hands of the Government, and we must acknowledge the importance of that. I'm not trying to avoid taking any responsibility. Having said that, one of the things that has become evident to us during the past few years—well, certainly it's become evident to me—is the need for a workforce. As standards become operational, we are creating a situation where public bodies—. There are 103 of them in Wales delivering services. They need people—to answer the phone, in receptions, providing services face to face in healthcare and social services—and the police forces in particular. Over the summer, South Wales Police advertised 25 jobs where the Welsh language was essential. So, they're acknowledging the need. What we've been doing, in seeing this need grow, is collaborating with the FE colleges, with CollegesWales in particular, and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to ensure that they are aware of where these pockets of demand exist. Then they feed that through to their institutions.

One piece of work that we did at the beginning of the summer was a piece of work with the National Training Federation Wales on apprenticeships and the demand and need to strengthen the apprenticeship structure in Wales to ensure that we are creating bilingual workers. That has been presented to the Government and it's been shared by NTFW and CollegesWales. And so what we are doing is raising awareness, working with these organisations to influence Government, but also to influence the education providers to ensure that they respond to this demand for a bilingual workforce.

It was only yesterday that I met with the major accreditation organisation working outwith Wales to discuss this exact subject—how to create a bilingual workforce. That's the relationship that we have: one of providing evidence, identifying where the need lies and then trying to work collaboratively to see how we're going to meet that demand.

11:25

Okay. Given that legislating implies resources that are not used for something else, what do you think could be achieved if the commissioner had significant additional powers through legislation? What is it about new legislation that's going to transform the work that you're doing?

Fe welwch chi o fy nhystiolaeth i nad ydw i'n credu bod angen inni ddeddfu. Nid yw'r Mesur sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd yn berffaith—rydw i'n cydnabod hynny. Ac rydw i yn credu ar adegau byddai modd efallai ystwytho rhywfaint. Ond mae'r Mesur, yn y bôn, yn Fesur sydd yn rhoi'r sgôp; nid yw'n cyfyngu, ac nid ydw i'n credu ein bod ni eto—a buaswn i ddim ar ôl pump neu chwe blynedd—wedi defnyddio'r Mesur i'r eithaf, o bell ffordd.

Os feddyliwch chi, mae Canada yn edrych ar hyn o bryd ar adolygu eu deddfwriaeth ieithoedd swyddogol, sydd wedi bod mewn bodolaeth ers hanner canrif. Nid ydw i'n argymell ein bod ni'n treulio hanner canrif yn peidio ag edrych ar y Mesur, ond rydw i'n credu y dylem ddefnyddio'r Mesur sydd gyda ni—edrych ar y ffiniau ac, wrth gwrs, adolygu, os oes angen, pan ddaw hynny'n amlwg. Ond nid ydw i'n credu bod y dystiolaeth yna ar hyn o bryd bod angen cael deddfwriaeth o'r newydd. Rydw i'n credu bod y Mesur sydd gyda ni yn un y dylem ni fod yn falch ohono fe.

You will see from my evidence that I do not believe that we need to legislate. The Measure that we have at present is not perfect—I recognise that. And I believe that, at times, it would be possible to make it a little bit more flexible. But, fundamentally, the Measure gives the scope; it's not restrictive, and I don't believe that we have yet—well, I wouldn't, having spent five or six years doing this—used the Measure to its greatest potential, by a long way. 

At the moment, Canada is looking at reforming its official languages legislation, which has existed for half a century. I do not recommend that half a century should elapse before we look again at legislation, but we should use the Measure that we already have—look at the boundaries and, of course, reform, if we need to, when we need to. But, at present, I don't think we need fresh legislation. I believe that the Measure that we have is one that we should be proud of.

Okay, thank you for that. I'm conscious of the time, and others are going to ask you further questions on that matter. I just wanted to ask you whether—. Dyfodol i'r Iaith has said that the 2011 Measure hasn't got to grips with the need to increase the number of Welsh speakers. I wonder if you could just briefly tell us why you think that is—well, (a) whether you agree with that and—

Rydw i'n credu nad yw deddfwriaeth yn ateb yn ei gyfanrwydd. Mae deddfwriaeth, pan fyddech chi'n sôn am gynllunio ieithyddol, yn rhan o'r ateb. Beth sydd ei angen ochr yn ochr â deddfwriaeth—ac mae gyda ni ddeddfwriaeth—yw polisïau addysg sydd yn creu defnyddwyr hyderus sydd yn defnyddio'r iaith. Rydw i'n credu bod hynny yn nwylo'r Llywodraeth—mae o fewn dwylo deddfwriaeth yn ymwneud ag addysg a chynllunio addysg a chynllunio polisi addysg. Rydw i yn credu bod y ddeddfwriaeth yma yn creu'r cyfleoedd i ddefnyddio, ond nid deddfwriaeth sy'n creu'r defnyddiwr—mae gymaint o bethau eraill sydd angen ymyriadau eraill y mae angen inni edrych arnyn nhw, sef anogaeth—mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau, lle maen nhw yn bodoli, yn rhwydd mynd atyn nhw, bod yna gynnig rhagweithiol, bod pobl yn cael eu hannog i ddefnyddio'r gwasanaethau. Felly, nid ydw i'n credu mai diffyg yn y ddeddfwriaeth yma sydd gyda ni fan hyn, ond yr angen i wneud cant a mil o bethau eraill yn ychwanegol i'r ddeddfwriaeth.

I don't think that legislation is a panacea. When you talk of language planning, then legislation is part of the solution, but what you require along with legislation—and we have the legislation in place—is education policies that create confident Welsh speakers who use the language. I think that is in the Government's hands—it is down to legislation related to education and policy related to education. I do think that this legislation creates the opportunities to use the language, but it's not legislation that creates the language user—there are so many other things that need other interventions that we need to look at, encouragement—we need to ensure that the services, where they exist, are easily accessible, that there is an active offer, that people are encouraged to use those services. Therefore, I don't think that it's problems with this legislation that we're facing here; it's the need to do all sorts of other things in addition to the legislation.

11:30

Ocê, diolch yn fawr iawn. David Melding.

Okay, thank you very much. David Melding.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I think there's a general consensus that the shift to a standards-based policy and away from the language scheme policy that came in after the 1993 Act has been a very significant and worthwhile shift. There is much less consensus around the quality of the standards in terms of their complexity and whether they're too bureaucratic. Whatever you think about the fairness of this, quite a few stakeholders have made these comments. So, could you react to that in terms of the complex nature and the bureaucratic costs of this system? Or is that not a very fair way of looking at the change and the rigour that are inevitably brought in from a system of standards rather than a much more reactive one in terms of Welsh language policies?

Diolch am y cwestiwn yna. A gawn ni ddechrau gyda'r ffaith bod cyflwyno unrhyw gyfundrefn newydd, neu newid cyfundrefn—a dyna rŷm ni'n ei weld fan hyn—yn mynd i greu cyfnod o drafodaeth ynglŷn ag a ydy hwn yn well, a ydy hwn yn waeth, a ydy hwn yn teimlo'n rhwyddach neu'n—? A gawn ni dderbyn hynny, bod unrhyw fath o newid—?

Rydw i'n credu ein bod ni angen cydnabod hefyd beth mae'r safonau yn ceisio ei wneud. Beth mae'r safonau yn ei wneud yw cymryd gwasanaethau a sefydliadau sy'n reit gymhleth eu natur—awdurdodau lleol, byrddau iechyd—a gosod allan yn glir iddyn nhw beth yw'r disgwyliadau arnyn nhw wrth eu bod nhw'n cynnig gwasanaethau i'r cyhoedd. Cofiwch hefyd fod y safonau'n mynd ymhellach na chynlluniau iaith oherwydd bod cynlluniau iaith yn gyfyngedig i wasanaethau i'r cyhoedd. Mae'r safonau yma hefyd yn ymwneud â gweithredu mewnol sefydliadau, a oedd yn heriol, ac yn delio â phenderfyniadau polisi sefydliadau, sydd yn gysyniad newydd—sut ydych chi'n mesur effaith y penderfyniad polisi yma ar y Gymraeg? 

So, o reidrwydd, mi oedd y safonau yn mynd i fod yn fwy cymhleth na chynlluniau iaith. Mae yna lot fawr o safonau, rydw i'n derbyn hynny. Erbyn hyn, rydw i'n credu, os gwnewch chi'r syms, mae yna filoedd o safonau yn bodoli, oherwydd mae 103 o sefydliadau. Ond, wedi dweud hynny, erbyn hyn, beth rŷm ni'n ei glywed—. Ac rwy'n derbyn beth rŷch chi'n ei ddweud; mae ambell i sefydliad wedi cwyno bod y broses ar y dechrau yn fiwrocrataidd. Fe eglurodd y Gweinidog pam oedd hynny. Ond beth rŷm ni'n ei glywed oddi wrth sefydliadau nawr yw eu bod nhw'n croesawu’r elfen eithaf penodol sydd yn y safonau. Maen nhw'n gosod allan yn glir beth yw'r disgwyliad. Nid oes angen gorddadansoddi. Os ydych chi'n mynd i dderbynfa, mi ddylech chi dderbyn gwasanaeth yn y Gymraeg. 

Felly, er yn gymhleth, er yn fanwl, er yn niferus, rydw i'n credu eu bod nhw'n gweithio. Rydw i'n credu un man lle rŷm ni wedi dysgu fel sefydliad yw'r broses o osod y safonau. Erbyn hyn, rŷm ni wedi mynd drwy chwe set o safonau. Fe ddechreuom ni gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, awdurdodau lleol a'r parciau, rŷm ni ar set Rhif 7, ond y chweched set oherwydd bod un wedi disgyn. Rydw i'n mynd i droi at Dyfan achos un o dy dimoedd di sydd yn mynd drwy'r broses yna. Beth sydd wedi newid?

Thank you for that question. Let's start with the fact that introducing any new regime, or changing a regime—this is what we saw here—is going to create a period of debate as to whether this is an improvement, whether it's a deterioration, whether things feel easier or—. Let's accept that any change is going to generate that sort of discussion.

I think we also need to recognise what the standards seek to deliver. What the standards do is to take services and bodies that can be quite complex—such as local authorities and health boards—and to set out clearly to them what is expected of them as they provide services to the public. Bear in mind too that the standards go further than language schemes because language schemes were restricted to services to the public. These standards relate to the internal operation of institutions, which was very challenging, and deal with policy decisions, which is a new concept—how do you measure the impact of this policy decision on the Welsh language?  

So, the standards were always going to be more complex than language schemes. There are many standards, I accept that. I think, if you do the math, there are thousands of standards in existence, because there are 103 organisations involved. But, having said that, what we hear now—. And I accept what you say; some bodies have complained that the initial process was bureaucratic. The Minister explained why that was the case. What we are hearing from organisations now is that they welcome this specific element within the standards. They set out clearly what the expectations are. You don't need to overanalyse this. If you go to a reception area, you should be able to access a service through the medium of Welsh.

So, despite some complexity and a great deal of detail and despite being numerous, I do think that the standards are working. I think one area where we have learnt lessons as an institution is the process of imposing the standards. We have now gone through six rounds of standards. We started with the Welsh Government, local authorities and the national parks, we are on set No. 7, but the sixth set because one had fallen. I'll turn to Dyfan because it's one of your teams that is going through that process. What's changed?

Ocê. Jest i fynd yn ôl at y cwestiwn yn gyflym hefyd, o ran rydym ni'n derbyn bod yna rai cyrff wedi mynegi pryder ac rydym ni'n ceisio gwrando ar hynny, achos mae yna le i wella drwy'r adeg, mae'n bwysig nodi hefyd, rydw i'n meddwl, ein bod ni yn cydweithio'n adeiladol â nifer fawr o gyrff. Felly, mae'r gwaith yna'n parhau. Er enghraifft, mae gennym ni gynhadledd mewn ychydig o wythnosau i drafod arferion llwyddiannus a fydd yn gyfle i rannu arfer da ac ati. Felly, mae yna gydweithio adeiladol yn digwydd hefyd ac mae'n bwysig nodi hynny.

O ran y gwaith gosod safonau, rydw i'n meddwl mai un o'r pethau rydym ni wedi eu newid ydy rydym ni'n ceisio sicrhau bod yna gymaint o gyfleoedd â phosibl i drafod efo cyrff. Felly, unwaith mae'r Cynulliad yn pasio rheoliadau safonau, un o'r pethau cyntaf rydym ni'n ei wneud wedyn ydy cynnal sesiwn briffio ar gyfer y sector. Felly, mae'r cyrff i gyd yn mynychu'r sesiwn yna. Mae o'n gyfle inni egluro'r drefn, ac efallai cael trafodaeth gychwynnol ynglŷn â gofynion y safonau hefyd.

Yn dilyn hynny wedyn, ac yn bwysig iawn, a rhywbeth rydym ni wedi’i ddysgu wrth inni symud ymlaen, rydym ni'n sicrhau ein bod ni'n cael cyfarfod neu gyfarfodydd efo pob corff yn unigol, felly, pob un sefydliad rydym ni'n gweithio efo nhw—mae yna gyfarfodydd unigol hefyd a dyna le mae'r cyfleoedd yn dod i drafod mewn manylder wedyn. Felly, mae yna fwy o gyfle i drafod.

Rydym ni hefyd yn ymwybodol iawn bod angen i hyn ddigwydd yn weddol fuan achos, yn amlwg, mae pobl yn craffu arnom ni hefyd o ran faint o amser mae'r safonau yn cymryd i'w cyflwyno. Felly, ar gyfartaledd, unwaith mae rheoliadau safonau'n cael eu pasio yn y Cynulliad, mae'n cymryd rhyw chwe mis wedyn i ni drafod efo'r cyrff cyn mae'r hysbysiad cydymffurfio terfynol, sef y safonau terfynol, yn cael ei roi i gyrff. Felly, dyna'n fras ydy'r cyfnod o ran amser, ac un o’r pethau rydym ni wedi'i ddysgu drwy brofiad ydy'r angen yna i gael deialog mor agos â phosib efo cyrff. Nid ydw i'n gwybod os ydy hynny'n ateb y cwestiwn.    

Okay. Just to go back to the question quickly too, we accept that some bodies have expressed concern and we've tried to listen to those, because there's room for improvement always. It's also important to note that we are working constructively with a great number of organisations. So, that work is continuing. For example, we will be holding a conference in a few weeks' time to discuss best practice and successful practices. So, there's very constructive collaboration taking place too and it's important to note that.

As regards the work of imposing the standards, one of the things that we have changed is that we're trying to ensure that there are as many opportunities to discuss the issues with the bodies as possible. So, once the Assembly passes a round of standards, the first thing we then do is hold a round of briefings for the sector and all the organisations attend that. It's an opportunity for us to explain and perhaps have an initial discussion about the requirements of the standards too.

Following on from that, most importantly, and it's something that we've learned as we've moved along, is that we ensure that we have a meeting or meetings with each body individually. So, every institution that we work with, we have individual meetings with them, and that's where we have the opportunity to discuss the minutiae. So, there is greater opportunity for discussion.

We're also very aware that this needs to happen quite soon because, obviously, people are scrutinising us too as regards how long it's taking us to introduce these standards. So, on average, once the standards regulations are passed in the Assembly, it takes about six months for us to have the discussions with the organisations before the final compliance notice is given of the imposition of the these standards to the bodies. So, that's the timetable in outline, and one of the important lessons that we've learned from experience is the importance of having a dialogue with the organisations. I don't know if that answers the question.

11:35

David, cyn i ti ddod yn ôl i mewn—.

David, before you come back in —.

Sorry, just before you come back in, Siân Gwenlllian just had a quick question.

Jest er mwyn eglurder, felly, a fedrwch chi egluro'r broses? Hynny yw, beth sy'n digwydd? Ar ôl i chi gyflwyno'ch rhan gychwynnol chi o'r gwaith, mae o'n mynd i'r Llywodraeth ac, yn ôl yr hyn rydw i'n ei ddeall, mae yna lot o waith wedi cael ei wneud sydd yn dal, mewn ffordd, heb gael ei drosglwyddo i mewn i safonau—mae o'n dal efo'r Llywodraeth. A fedrwch chi egluro ac enwi'r gwaith yna sydd yn dal—? Achos os oes yna fiwrocratiaeth yno, mae'n bwysig deall bod yna fiwrocratiaeth. Ie, efallai bod yna fiwrocratiaeth o fewn eich swyddfa chi, ond mae yna oedi mawr yn gallu digwydd o fewn Llywodraeth, os ydy hynny'n ffeithiol gywir.

Just for the sake of clarity, can you explain the process? What exactly happens? Once you have started your initial piece of work, it goes to Government, and, as I understand it, a lot of work has been done that still hasn't been turned into standards. It's still with the Government. Can you explain and tell us what work is still in the pipeline? Because, if there is bureaucracy there, it's important that we understand that there is bureaucracy within your office, but there is also great delay that could happen within Government too. I don't know if that's factually correct.

Yn syml iawn, mae'r Mesur yn gosod tri cham i'r broses. Y cam cyntaf ydy'r ymgynghori cychwynnol, os liciwch chi, â sector, a'n cyfrifoldeb ni fel comisiynydd ydy hynny. Unwaith mae hynny'n digwydd, wedyn rydym ni'n trosglwyddo adroddiad i'r Llywodraeth. Mae'r Llywodraeth wedyn yn gweithio ar y rheoliadau safonau, sef beth rydych chi'n ei weld ac yn ei basio yn y Cynulliad. Ac ar ôl i hynny ddigwydd, mae'n trosglwyddo'n ôl i ni lle rydym ni'n gweithio efo'r cyrff yn unigol. Felly, dyna'r broses yn syml.

O ran y cam cyntaf yna, yr ymgynghoriad cychwynnol, rydym ni wedi cwblhau'r broses yna efo'r mwyafrif helaeth o'r sectorau sy'n cael eu henwi yn y Mesur, felly'r cyrff sydd yn gweithredu safonau erbyn hyn, ond hefyd yn ychwanegol at hynny, y cyfleustodau roeddech chi'n eu trafod yn gynharach—felly cwmnïau dŵr, nwy a thrydan—cwmnïau teithio hefyd, a hefyd sectorau eraill, fel cymdeithasau tai. Felly, mae'r rheini i gyd yn gyrff ac yn sectorau rydym ni wedi cwblhau'r cam cyntaf yna efo nhw. Wedyn—

Very simply, the Measure gives us three steps in the process. The first step is the initial consultation with a sector, and it's our responsibility as the commissioner's office to do that. Once that has happened, we then submit a report to the Government, and then they work out the standards regulations, which is what you see and pass in the Assembly. Following that, it's transferred back to us where we then work with individual organisations. So, that's the process put simply.

From the point of view of that first step, the initial consultation, we have completed that process with the vast majority of the sectors that are named in the Measure, so, the bodies that are actually implementing the standards at present, but, in addition to that, the utilities that you were discussing earlier—the water, gas and electricity companies—companies in the transport sector, and also the housing associations. So, they are all bodies and sectors that we've completed that initial step with. 

Ers faint? Er enghraifft, gyda'r cymdeithasau tai, ers faint mae'r gwaith yna wedi'i drosglwyddo i'r Llywodraeth? 

How long has it been since you transferred the housing association work to the Government?

Tua dwy flynedd, rydw i'n meddwl.

About two years, I think.

Felly, nid oes cynnydd wedi bod yn y ddwy flynedd yna o safbwynt cymdeithasau tai. 

So, there hasn't been any progress made over the past two years from the point of view of housing associations.

Nid wyf i'n siŵr bod hynny'n deg. Rydw i'n gwybod bod yna waith wedi digwydd yn y Llywodraeth yn dilyn hynny. Hefyd, os cymerwn ni gwmnïau dŵr fel enghraifft, mae yna reoliadau a safonau drafft wedi cael eu hymgynghori arnyn nhw ar gyfer cwmnïau dŵr. Mae hynny ar stop ar hyn o bryd oherwydd y rhesymau roeddech chi'n eu trafod yn gynharach ynglŷn â'r Bil ac ati. Felly, mae yna waith pellach wedi digwydd, ond yn amlwg nid ydy hynny wedi gweld golau dydd eto o ran rheoliadau safonau. 

I'm not sure whether that's fair. Work has been going on in the Government following that. But, also, if I can take the water companies as an example, there are draft standards regulations that have already been consulted upon with the water companies. That's on stop at the moment because of the reasons that you were discussing earlier regarding the Bill. So, further work has taken place, but it hasn't yet seen the light of day.

If I can infer—. Or am I inferring correctly that you think most of the friction around are these things—the standards—too complex and bureaucratic is really, perhaps, what you might expect in an initial phase of moving to a new system? Because not only is this a transition, but it's quite a fundamental shift, isn't it, in an important public policy area. So, is that a fair inference on my part?

I know we've just not had much time, really, to see standards in practice yet, but is there much evidence that the ongoing position, then, once we're over the hump, as it were, of establishing the standards, is an easier and more productive process? Are we seeing the results, in other words?

11:40

Rydw i'n meddwl bod hynny'n gywir. Jest un peth bychan y buaswn i'n ychwanegu at hynny: rydym ni yn delio â gwasanaethau cyhoeddus mawr a chymhleth, felly yn anorfod mae yna elfen o gymhlethdod, wedyn, mewn safonau sydd yn adlewyrchu'r gwasanaethau hynny. Rydw i'n meddwl unwaith mae'r cyfle wedi bod gennym ni i fod yn trafod efo cyrff—cynnal cyfarfodydd a sesiynau briffio—yn sicr mae hynny yn helpu o ran dealltwriaeth y cyrff.

Hefyd, rydw i'n meddwl unwaith maen nhw wedi buddsoddi yn y safonau, fel mae nifer helaeth o'r cyrff sy'n gweithredu safonau wedi gwneud hyd yma, rydym ni'n gweld wedyn fod y meddylfryd yn newid. Roeddwn i'n cyfeirio'n gynharach at gynhadledd arferion llwyddiannus, ac mae'n bwysig inni nodi hynny—bod yna nifer o gyrff wedi mynd at y safonau o safbwynt adeiladol a phositif, ac rydym ni'n gweld gwahaniaethau rŵan ac arferion da. Cawsom ni gyfle i drafod hynny, hefyd, yn yr Eisteddfod yng Nghaerdydd, felly, fel mae'r broses yn aeddfedu, rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni'n gweld mwy o hynny hefyd.

I think that's correct. Just one minor thing I'd add to that is that we do deal with large and complex public services, so, inevitably, there is an element of complexity in standards that reflects those services themselves. I think once we've had the opportunity to discuss with bodies, and to hold briefing sessions and meetings, then, certainly, that has helped, in terms of those organisations' understanding.

Also, once they have invested in standards, as very many of the organisations that deliver those standards have done, then we do see that the mindset changes. I mentioned earlier a good practice conference. It's important to note, too, that there are a number of organisations that approach the standards in a constructive and positive way, and we are seeing a difference being made and good practice being developed. We had an opportunity to discuss that, too, at the National Eisteddfod in Cardiff, so, as the process matures, I do think that we are seeing more and more of that.

Liciwn i jest gyfeirio'n fyr iawn, iawn at y sesiwn yn yr Eisteddfod, lle cawsom ni arweinydd cyngor Caerdydd a dirprwy gwnstabl Heddlu De Cymru yna yn barod i roi tystiolaeth yn gyhoeddus, fel rhan o gyhoeddi'r adroddiad sicrwydd, eu bod nhw'n gweld budd safonau, a'u bod nhw wedi derbyn—. Mi oedd yr awdurdodau lleol—y cyngor—wedi mynd drwy'r rownd gyntaf, eithaf poenus, yna o gyflwyno'r safonau, ond eu bod nhw nawr yn gweld budd o hynny.

Yn sicr, mae'r broses—rŷm ni wedi dysgu lot fawr yn y broses hefyd, ynglŷn â pha wybodaeth sydd ei heisiau ar gyrff. O beth rydw i'n ei weld gyda chyflwyno safonau i'r sector iechyd, mae hi lot yn llai poenus nag oedd y rownd gyntaf, ac mae hynny gyda sector sydd yn gweld heriau anferth.

I would just like to refer, very briefly, to the session we held at the Eisteddfod with the leader of Cardiff council and the deputy chief constable of South Wales Police, who were there ready to give evidence publicly as part of the publication of the assurance report. They said they could see the benefit of the standards. The local authorities—the council—had gone through quite a painful initial round of introducing the standards, but they now see a benefit in doing so.

We have learnt a great deal in this process, as regards what information the organisations require. From what I see with the introduction of standards in the health sector, it's much less painful than the first round was, and that is in a sector that does encounter massive challenges generally.

Jest o ran y sector iechyd, a wnewch chi ddweud wrthym ni faint o amser wnaeth o gymryd o'r trafodaethau cychwynnol yna—faint wnaeth y darn canol, pan oedd y gwaith efo'r Llywodraeth, gymryd, inni gael syniad? Wedyn, erbyn hyn—

Just on the health sector, could you just tell us how long it took from those initial discussions—how long did that middle part of the work, which happened within Government, take? Then, how long—

Efallai y gallwch chi ysgrifennu atom ni, oherwydd rwy'n cydnabod bod amser yn weddol fyr. Gallwch chi ysgrifennu atom ni, os ydych chi'n gallu, gyda rhyw fath o esboniad o'r amserlen.

Perhaps you could write to us with that detail, because time is relatively short. Perhaps you could write to us, if you can give us some sort of explanation of the timeline.

Rwy'n credu y byddai hynny'n decach i wneud, achos mi allwn ni roi dyddiadau i chi wedyn—pryd cyflwynwyd yr ymchwiliad safonau, ac yn y blaen. Mi wnawn ni hynny'n syth.

I think that would be fairer, because then we could give you the specific dates of when the standards were introduced, et cetera. We'll do that immediately.

So, you don't accept the criticism that, in general, it would've been better if standards had been conceived more as a general principle, as more strategic, and, therefore, you would need fewer of them. Why was that approach not taken, because it seems to be the nub of what those who have criticised the current situation have thought would have been a better approach?

Mi oedd yna lot fawr o drafodaeth yn y cyfnod pan oedd y Bil yn cael ei ystyried. Yn amlwg, mi oeddem ni gyd â gwahanol farn ynglŷn â safonau cymhleth, rhy gymhleth ac yn y blaen. Rydw i'n credu bod y dystiolaeth, erbyn hyn, oherwydd natur cymhleth y gwasanaethau a'r sefydliadau rŷm ni'n sôn amdanyn nhw—bod y ffaith eu bod nhw'n eithaf prescriptive ac yn eithaf penodol i'w groesawu. Rwy'n credu y byddai safonau lefel uchel, lle'r oedd yna lot fawr o ddehongli, yn creu mwy o broblemau i'r sefydliad.

Ond, hefyd, rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig bod yn rhaid inni gofio beth yw pwrpas safonau—rhoi sicrwydd i ddefnyddwyr, a dyna mae'r safonau yma yn ei wneud. Nid ydyn nhw yn rhoi cyfrifoldeb ar siaradwyr y Gymraeg a defnyddwyr y Gymraeg i drio dehongli beth allan nhw ei ddisgwyl—maen nhw'n eithaf clir.

There was a great deal of discussion when the Bill was being considered. We all had different views as to whether the standards were complex, too complex and so on and so forth. I think the evidence, because of the complex nature of the services and the organisations that we're talking about—I think the fact that they are quite prescriptive and quite specific is something that is to be welcomed. I think high-level standards, where there was a great deal of interpretation required, would be more problematic for the organisation.

But I think it's also important that we bear in mind the purpose of standards, and that is to provide assurances to service users, and that's what these standards do. They don't place a responsibility on Welsh speakers to try and interpret what they should expect—it's clearly set out.

11:45

Okay, I understand that argument. I think, if the standards get so general and strategic or whatever, that the polite way of describing that, you know, more aspirational statement is—I mean, you're almost back to a language scheme regime, aren't you? So, there's a certain inevitability of some prescription in a standards approach. Others have, sort of, come back and said, 'Well, yes, that might be true, but why have codes of practice not been issued?', which I think was envisaged originally, which, kind of, does try to get in this balance of reasonableness and what it really means in practice when you have what can seem to be quite prescriptive standards set. So, are there going to be codes of practice? Certainly in a sectoral approach, you would have thought codes of practice would be a very beneficial way of putting principles into practice. 

Mae yna godau ymarfer yn mynd i fod. Mae yna un yn cael ei gyflwyno ymhen hir. Ond a gaf i ofyn i Dyfan jest i egluro'r meddylfryd dros y ffordd rydym ni wedi gweithredu? 

There will be codes of practice. One is to be introduced soon. I'll just ask Dyfan just to explain the thinking behind that. 

Diolch. Rydym ni'n ymwybodol bod rhai sefydliadau a fyddai wedi dymuno gweld cod ymarfer ynghynt. Rydym ni'n deall hynny. Ond, hyd yn ddiweddar, mae'n blaenoriaeth ni wedi bod ynghylch gosod y safonau a chael trafodaethau efo'r cyrff ynglŷn â dehongli'r safonau wedyn. Felly, mae'r cod ymarfer yn un ffordd eithaf statig, mewn gwirionedd, o roi arweiniad i gyrff ynglŷn â'r safonau, ac rydym ni yn bwriadu cyhoeddi codau, ond yn y cyfamser beth rydym ni wedi bod yn ei wneud wrth osod y safonau efo nhw ydy trafod efo nhw wyneb yn wyneb a derbyn cwestiynau ynglŷn â, 'Beth mae hyn yn feddwl? A allwch chi ddehongli hwn?' Felly, rydym ni wedi bod yn rhoi'r arweiniad yna iddyn nhw wyneb yn wyneb mewn cyfarfodydd a sesiynau briffio, ond mi fyddwn ni rŵan yn ffurfioli hynny mewn codau ymarfer.

Rydw i'n meddwl un pwynt arall y buaswn i'n ei wneud hefyd: mantais, mewn ffordd, o oedi efo'r codau ymarfer ydy ei fod o wedi ein galluogi ni i gynnwys rhai enghreifftiau achos ar sail profiad hefyd—enghreifftiau penodol o weithredu efallai na fyddem ni wedi gallu eu cynnwys pe baem ni wedi eu cyhoeddi nhw'n syth. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl bod yna fanteision i hynny. Ond fel mae'r gwaith yn datblygu, fel dywedodd Meri, rydym ni'n bwriadu cyhoeddi'r cod ymarfer cyntaf yn fuan. Mi fydd eraill yn dilyn wedyn. 

Thank you. We are aware that some organisations would have liked to have seen a code of practice earlier. We understand that. But, until recently, our priority has been imposing standards and having discussions with organisations on interpreting those standards. So, the code of practice is one static way of providing guidance to organisations on the standards, and we do intend to publish codes, but in the meantime what we have been doing in working on the standards with them is having face-to-face discussions and taking their questions, questions on, 'What does this mean? Can you interpret this for us?' So, we have been providing that guidance to them on a face-to-face basis in briefing sessions and meetings, but we will now be formalising that in codes of practice.

I think one further point that I would make is that the benefit of holding these codes of practice back is that it's enabled us to include some case studies based on our experience too—some very specific examples that we, perhaps, couldn't have included had we published them immediately. So, I do think that there are benefits to that. But, as the work develops, as Meri said, we do intend to publish the first code of practice soon and others will follow. 

A hefyd, yn ogystal ag arferion da, rydym ni wedi gallu cynnwys ambell i benderfyniad gan y tribiwnlys sydd yn bwysig o ran dadansoddi gwahanol safonau, so rydw i'n credu bod yna brofiad yn mynd mewn i'r cod ymarfer.

And also, in addition to good practices, we have been able to include a couple of tribunal decisions or determinations that are important from the point of view of analysing the various standards, so I think there will be experience contained within the code of practice.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, David. Jenny. 

Thank you very much, David. Jenny. 

You've already covered the ways in which you're streamlining the implementation of the standards with stakeholder organisations. I just wondered if you could tell us rather specifically—you said very clearly in your written evidence that the White Paper, published just over a year ago, was premature. I wonder if you can just explain in what way it came to the wrong conclusions by having done its evaluation too early. 

Ocê. Fel rydym ni wedi trafod, rydw i'n credu bod newid unrhyw gyfundrefn yn mynd i greu ymateb ac mae angen i newid cyfundrefn, fel rydym ni wedi'i gael gyda'r safonau, neu gyflwyno cyfundrefn newydd, mae angen amser i'r gyfundrefn setlo i ni gael tystiolaeth o effaith newid cyfundrefn. Rydw i'n dal i gredu ei bod hi'n gynnar i fod yn gwneud penderfyniadau ynglŷn â newid rhywbeth. Rydw i mewn sefyllfa, ac mae'n swyddfa ni mewn sefyllfa, drwy ein gwaith monitro ni, drwy ddelio â chwynion, drwy'n gwaith rheoleiddio ni a thrwy'r cyswllt dyddiol yna rydym ni'n ei gael gyda chyrff, yn benaethiaid ac yn swyddogion, i weld newid. Mae yna newid yn digwydd. Fe gyhoeddom ni ein pedwerydd adroddiad sicrwydd y byddwn ni'n trafod gyda chi mewn rhyw bythefnos. Fe gyhoeddom ni ein pedwerydd adroddiad sicrwydd yn yr Eisteddfod. Teitl yr adroddiad oedd 'Mesur o Lwyddiant' ac nid ar chwarae bach y gwnaethom ni ei alw fe'n fesur o lwyddiant oherwydd rydw i'n credu ein bod ni yn gweld hadau o lwyddiant yn dod trwodd. Mae yna o hyd le i wella, wrth gwrs, ond rydw i'n credu ei bod hi'n lot rhy gynnar i benderfynu bod angen newid y ddeddfwriaeth yn llwyr. Nid yw'r dystiolaeth yna. 

Okay. As we have discussed, I believe that changing any system is going to create a reaction, and with a change to the system as we have had with the standards, or when introducing a new system, you need to have time for the system to settle for us to get the evidence of the impact of the regime or system change. I still believe it's too early for us to take decisions on changing something. I'm in a position, and our office is in a position, through our monitoring work, through dealing with complaints, through our regulatory work and through the daily contact that we have with organisations, both the heads of those organisations and the officials, to see the change. Change is happening. We published our fourth assurance report, which we will be discussing with you in a fortnight's time. We published that at the Eisteddfod. The title of the report is 'A Measure of Success' and we did not call it a measure of success lightly because we are seeing shoots of success coming through. There is still room for improvement, naturally, but I do believe that it's much too early to decide that the legislation needs to be amended wholesale. The evidence just isn't there.

11:50

Right. Okay, so the fact that the Welsh Government seems to be determined to defer any new regulations until the proposals for new legislation have been worked out—I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about how that's impacting on your work.

Fe wnaf i ddechrau ac wedyn fe wnaf i droi, achos, eto, mae Dyfan yn ymwneud â hyn o ddydd i ddydd. Mae gen i gonsýrn o ran ein gwaith ni fel sefydliad, a gwaith y sefydliadau sydd wedi buddsoddi mewn safonau. Rydw i'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn meddwl am beth mae'r sefydliadau—y 103 ohonyn nhw—wedi ei wneud. Maen nhw wedi newid systemau. Maen nhw wedi defnyddio adnoddau. Maen nhw wedi cyflogi. Rydw i'n credu bod yna wir gonsýrn ein bod ni'n mynd i golli momentwm, a momentwm y gwaith yna sydd yn tyfu. Ond rydw i'n credu, os, Dyfan, y gelli di sôn amboutu beth mae'n ei feddwl o ddydd i ddydd i ni—.

I'll start and then I'll turn to Dyfan, because, again, Dyfan deals with this on a daily basis. I do have some concerns in terms of our work as an organisation and the work of the organisations that have invested in standards. I think it's very important to think about what the 103 organisations have done. They have changed their systems. They have made use of resources. They have employed staff. I do think that there is real concern that we're going to lose momentum, and it's the momentum that has been developing. But, Dyfan, if you could tell us what it means on a day-to-day basis—.

Are we saying that monitoring and regulation is on hold, or that we're just simply not undertaking anything new?

Ie. Mae'n gwestiwn pwysig, rydw i'n meddwl, achos beth mae'n ei olygu ydy o ran y cyrff sy'n gweithredu safonau rŵan, a'r cyrff iechyd hefyd a fydd yn gweithredu'r safonau yn fuan, rydym ni'n gallu parhau i reoleiddio'r cyrff yna. Felly, nid oes problem o ran hynny, ond mae yna issue, efallai, o ran dealltwriaeth cyrff, os ydy'r Llywodraeth yn sôn am newid, pa effaith a fydd hynny'n ei gael arnyn nhw?

Yn ymarferol, mae gennym ni waith mawr o'n blaenau rŵan, yn gweithio efo'r cyrff iechyd, felly yn ymarferol, nid yw'n cael lot o effaith eto, ond fydd yna ddim rhagor o safonau ar ôl i ni weithio efo'r cyrff iechyd am y tro. Mae'n bwysig i ni ddeall yn union beth mae'n ei olygu, hefyd, yr oedi yma, oherwydd mae'n annhebygol, rydw i'n meddwl, y gwelwn ni Fil newydd tan ddiwedd 2020, dechrau 2021. Mae etholiadau'r Cynulliad wedyn, fel y byddwch chi i gyd yn ymwybodol, ym Mai 2021. Felly, yn ymarferol, mae'n annhebygol y gwelwn ni ragor o reoliadau safonau tan ddiwedd 2021, o bosib—tair blynedd i ffwrdd—sydd yn oedi sylweddol. So, mae'n bwysig i ni ddeall hynny.

Yn ymarferol, beth mae'n ei olygu i ni wedyn ydy ein bod ni'n ystyried gweithio efo rhai cyrff y buasem ni wedi dymuno gosod safonau arnyn nhw o dan yr hen drefn cynlluniau iaith. Er enghraifft, mae yna gyrff cyhoeddus newydd wedi'u sefydlu'n weddol ddiweddar, lle mae'n debyg, rŵan, y gwnawn ni ddechrau gweithio efo nhw ar gynlluniau iaith, oherwydd nid ydym yn gallu o dan y gyfundrefn safonau. Felly, dyna'r math o effaith ymarferol y mae'n ei gael.

Yes. It's an important question, I think, because what it means is that from the point of view of the organisations that are implementing the standards now, and the health organisations that will have to implement them soon, we are able to continue to regulate those organisations. So, there's no problem there, but there may be an issue from the point of view of the organisations' understanding, if the Government is talking about change, what impact that would have on them.

Practically, we have a great deal of work ahead of us now, working with the health organisations. So, practically, it hasn't had a great impact to date, but there will not be any more standards after we've finished our work with the health sector. It's important for us to understand what this delay will mean, because it's unlikely that we will see a new Bill until the end of 2020 or the beginning of 2021. Then you have the Assembly elections in May 2021, as you will all be aware. So, practically, it's unlikely that we will see any more standards regulations until the end of 2021, which is three years hence, which is a substantial delay. So, it's important for us to understand that.

Practically, what that means for us is that we're considering working with some organisations that we would have wished to have imposed standards on under the old system of the language schemes. For example, new organisations have been established recently where it's likely that we will begin to work with them on language schemes because we can't work with them under the standards regime. So, that's the kind of practical impact it's having.

Just briefly, do you think this uncertainty over the future is creating resistance amongst bodies to do what their standards oblige them to do?

Mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, ar hyn o bryd, nid oes tystiolaeth o hynny. Mae yna dystiolaeth o bobl yn cwestiynu beth sy'n digwydd: 'A ydy hwn yn mynd i effeithio arnom ni?' Rŷm ni'n gallu dweud, 'Na, mae ein perthynas ni', fel mae Dyfan wedi'i ddweud, 'gyda chi, fel rheoleiddiwr, yn mynd i barhau.' A dweud y gwir, mae ambell i sefydliad na fydd yn dod o dan safonau—rhai o'r cyrff newydd yma—wedi mynegi pryder i fi yn ddiweddar na fyddan nhw ddim o dan y safonau, achos dyna fuasen nhw'n ei ddymuno, er mwyn bod yn rhan o'r teulu yma o sefydliadau yng Nghymru sy'n gweithredu o dan safonau. Ac mae yna sefydliadau, o bosib, yn mynd i fod yn gofyn i'r Llywodraeth a allan nhw gael eu cynnwys o dan y safonau.

I have to say that, at the moment, there is no evidence of that. There is evidence of people questioning what's happening: 'Is this going to impact upon us?' We can can say 'No', as Dyfan has said, 'our relationship as a regulator will continue with you.' To be honest, some organisations that won't be captured under standards—some of these new organisations—have expressed concern to me recently that they won't be captured, because that is what they would choose, so that they could be part of this family of organisations in Wales working to standards. And there are organisations that will be asking Government whether they can be included in the standards regime.

Felly, rydych chi'n dadlau nad oes angen newid ar hyn o bryd oherwydd, un, y peryg o golli momentwm efo'r hyn sydd wedi digwydd cyn belled, y tair blynedd posib o oedi a all ddigwydd yn sgil hyn, a'r ail reswm, bod pethau heb wreiddio, bod pethau'n newydd. A ydy hynny'n crynhoi hynny? Felly, a ydych chi'n dadlau nad oes dim angen newid o gwbl ar ryw bwynt i'r dyfodol?

So, you argue that there is no need for change at present, because, first, the risk of the loss of momentum with what's happened so far if we have the potential three-year delay, and the second reason is that things haven't bedded in, they haven't been able to take root. Is that a fair summary? And so, are you arguing that there is no need for any change in future at any point?

Na. A gaf i ddweud yn gyntaf fod eich dadansoddiad chi yn gywir? Rŷm ni'n poeni am y colli momentwm. Rŷm ni'n poeni am y colli cyfle sy'n mynd i fod. Wir, nid wyf yn credu, ar adegau, fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn sylweddoli faint o fudd sydd wedi bod i'r ddeddfwriaeth yn barod, a buasen nhw ar eu hennill o fod yn adeiladu ar hynny. A ydy hynny yn golygu na fydd byth newid? Rydw i'n credu bod angen cadw unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth o dan ficrosgop o ran beth sydd angen ei newid, ond diwygio o fewn beth sydd gyda ni yn hytrach na thaflu un gyfundrefn allan a dod â chyfundrefn arall i mewn, buaswn i'n dweud. Rydw i'n rhagweld, gyda'r safonau sy'n bodoli yn barod ar sefydliadau, ar ryw adeg fe fydd angen adolygu'r rheini wrth i batrymau gwaith sefydliadau newid, wrth i batrymau gwaith digidol gryfhau. Bydd angen jest—i ddefnyddio'r gair Saesneg—tweak.

No. May I say, first of all, that your analysis is correct? We are concerned about that loss of momentum. We are concerned about the possible opportunities missed. I don't think, at times, the Welsh Government realises how much benefit has been brought about by this legislation, and that they would gain from building on those successes. Does that mean that there will never be change? Well, no, I think we need to keep any legislation under the microscope in terms of where amendments are required, but I do think that we need reform within what we have rather than throwing one system out and introducing a new system. I would anticipate, with the standards already in existence, that at some point we would need to review those as the working habits of those organisations change, as digital working develops. I'll just use the English word—I think we'll need to 'tweak' them.

11:55

Beth ydych chi'n meddwl ydy'r newidiadau mwyaf o gonsýrn a fyddai'n deillio o weithredu cynigion y Papur Gwyn? Gan gymryd rŵan fod y cyfnod yma—rydym ni wedi cyrraedd ar ôl etholiadau'r Cynulliad ac mae yna fwriad i symud ymlaen efo comisiwn, ac i ddileu rôl y comisiynydd, a symud ymlaen efo cynigion y Papur Gwyn fel y maen nhw ar hyn o bryd. Beth fyddai effaith hynny mewn gwirionedd?

What do you think the changes of greatest concern would be following the implementation of the proposals in the White Paper? Assuming that it's post the Assembly elections and there's the intention of carrying on with establishing a new commission, and removing the commissioner's role, and moving on with the proposals in the White Paper. What would be the impact of that in reality?

Mae sawl cwestiwn yn codi. I ddechrau, gyda'r sail tystiolaeth mae'r angen i newid, so gwnawn ni dderbyn hynny. Rydw i yn credu, o feddwl am y sefydliadau hynny sydd wedi buddsoddi yn barod, a'r sectorau sydd wedi buddsoddi yn barod mewn safonau, a ydy e'n deg a'r defnydd gorau o arian cyhoeddus i fod yn dweud wrthyn nhw, 'Rŷch chi'n mynd i fod yn newid i strwythur ychydig yn wahanol eto'? Nid ydw i'n sicr bod y drafodaeth—mae braidd yn annelwig beth fuasai'r gyfundrefn newydd, ond nid ydw i'n credu mai dyna le dylem ni fod yn defnyddio adnoddau cyhoeddus ar hyn o bryd, yn sôn am greu strwythurau gwahanol, ac yn y blaen. Adnabod lle mae yna le i adeiladu ar beth sydd gyda ni yn barod fuasai'r her, rydw i'n credu. Rŷm ni wedi clywed Aelodau'n sôn am gyfnod o dyndra cyllidol. Nid ydw i'n siŵr bod creu systemau o'r newydd eto yn mynd i fod yn ddefnydd da o arian. A hefyd, a ydy hynny yn mynd i gryfhau'r sefyllfa'r Gymraeg? Mae yna wastad peryg o fod yn newid strwythurau eich bod chi'n colli'r nod o beth rŷm ni'n ceisio'i gyflawni, sef creu siaradwyr a chreu defnyddwyr hyderus dwyieithog.

There are a number of questions arising. First of all, with the evidence base for a need for change, we'll accept that. I do think, in considering those organisations that have already invested, and the sectors that have already invested in standards, is it fair, and is it the best use of public funds, to be telling them, 'Well, you will be changing to a slightly different structure once again'? I'm not convinced that—it is a little ambiguous as to what the new regime would be, but I don't think that that is where we should be using public resources at the moment, in discussing the creation of new, different structures. I think we need to identify where there is room to build on what we have in place already; that would be the challenge. We've heard Members mentioning a period of financial austerity. I don't know that creating new systems is going to be the best use of funds at this point. Also, is that going to strengthen the position of the Welsh language? There is also a risk in structure change that you lose sight of your actual ambition, namely, creating confident bilingual speakers and users.

Dadl y Llywodraeth fyddai y byddai comisiwn, yn hytrach na'r sefyllfa sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, byddai comisiwn yn galluogi symud mwy tuag at yr agwedd hybu a hwyluso a thuag at fwy o gynllunio strategol. Hynny yw, mae'n amlwg bod yna newid pwyslais.

The Government's argument would be that a commission, rather than the status quo, would enable greater movement towards the promotion and facilitation aspect and towards more strategic planning. That is, it's obvious that there would be a shift of emphasis.

Rydw i'n dal i feddwl nad ydym wedi manteisio yn llwyr ar y pwerau sy'n bodoli o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol o ran hybu a hwyluso, a'r cyfleoedd sy'n eistedd o fewn swyddfa'r comisiynydd i wneud peth o'r gwaith yna. Fe fydd angen i Lywodraeth Cymru gael strategaeth o ran y Gymraeg ei hunan, ond rydw i yn credu bod yna le o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol, ac nid ydw i'n gweld tensiwn o ran hynny o fanteisio a chryfhau'r elfen hybu a hwyluso. Yn y bôn, prinder adnoddau ar hyn o bryd sy'n gwneud hynny'n anodd.

I still don't think we've taken full advantage of the powers that exist within the current legislation in terms of promotion and facilitation, and the opportunities that exist within the commissioner's office to do some of that work. There will be a need for the Welsh Government to have its own Welsh language strategy in place, but I do think that there is scope within the current legislation, and I don't see any tension in that regard, in strengthening that promotion and facilitation area. It's a problem of resources that makes that difficult at the moment.

Os mae yna dair blynedd o oedi sylweddol, a dim llawer o waith o safbwynt safonau newydd yn digwydd, a ydy hynny'n rhoi cyfle i chi symud yn strategol o fewn swyddfa'r comisiynydd tuag at wneud mwy o waith hybu a hwyluso?

If there is a significant period, a three-year delay, and there's no work done on the new standards, does that give you an opportunity to move strategically within the commissioner's office towards doing more promotion and facilitation work?

Ni fyddaf i yna.

I won't be there.

Wel, mae'n gywir i ddweud ein bod ni'n adolygu ein gwaith yn gyson, a gweld lle mae yna gyfleoedd i ni wneud mwy mewn meysydd eraill. Un o'r pethau efo'r ddadl yma yw nad yw hybu a rheoleiddio yn annibynnol ar ei gilydd, ac mae'n bwysig cofio hynny. Mae yna waith hybu yn digwydd o dan y gyfundrefn reoleiddio. Roeddem ni'n trafod safonau hybu yn gynharach, sy'n galluogi awdurdodau lleol, er enghraifft, i gael cynlluniau hybu, ac mae yna waith adeiladol yn digwydd o ran yr ochr reoleiddio hefyd, lle mae yna ganllawiau gwaith hybu yn digwydd ar yr ochr yna. Ond yn sicr, rydw i'n meddwl, os oes yna gyfleoedd inni wneud mwy o'r gwaith hybu yr ydym ni'n ei wneud efo busnesau ac elusennau hefyd, mi fuasem ni'n awyddus iawn i wneud hynny. Ond mae ein cyllideb gyffredinol ni'n parhau fel ag y mae o hefyd, wedi dweud hynny.

Well, it's true to say that we are reviewing our work on an ongoing basis, and identifying where there are opportunities for us to do more in other areas. One thing about this argument is that promotion and facilitation are not independent of each other, and it's important to remember that. There is promotional work taking place under the regulatory system. We were discussing promotional standards earlier, which enable local authorities, for example, to have promotional schemes and plans, and there is constructive work taking place on the regulatory side as well, where there are promotion guidelines given there. But certainly, if it were possible for us to do more of the promotional work that we're doing with the companies and the charities, then we'd be very eager to do that. But our general budget remains the same, having said that.

12:00

Jyst un cwestiwn terfynol gennyf i, felly, ynglŷn â'r sector preifat. Wrth gwrs, mae rhan fwyaf y sector preifat y tu hwn i sgôp y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Sut byddai newid hynny? A oes angen newid hynny?

Just one final question from me, on the private sector. Of course, most of the private sector is beyond the scope of the current legislation. How could that be changed, and does it need to be changed?

Rŷm ni wedi trafod yn barod y ffaith bod cyfleustodau—y cwmnïau dŵr—yno yn barod. Mae cwmnïau trafnidiaeth i mewn yn y Mesur yn barod, mae cwmnïau telegyfathrebu i mewn, mae ynni a nwy i mewn. So, mae yna ddarnau o'r sector preifat—ac rŷm ni wedi paratoi i wneud hynny, drwy ein hymchwiliadau safonau—a gallem ni fynd ar ôl y sectorau hynny pe bai'r Llywodraeth yn pasio'r rheoliadau safonau.

We've already discussed the fact that the utilities—the water companies—are there already. Transport companies are also included within the Measure, and telecommunications companies are in, as are electricity and gas. So, there are parts of the private sector that we could—and we have prepared to do that, through our standards investigations—actually pursue, if the Government passed the standards regulations.

Ond o ran y sector manwerthu—y cwmnïau mawr yma—rydym yn clywed enghreifftiau dro ar ôl tro, onid ydym, am ddiffyg ewyllys da tuag at y Gymraeg.

But as regards the retail sector—these major companies—we've seen examples time after time of the lack of goodwill towards the Welsh language.

Fel y mae Dyfan wedi ei egluro, rŷm ni'n gweithio'n agos gyda nhw. Mae yna gwestiynau, yn sicr, yn codi gyda'r sector, fel y sector cyllid—y sector banciau. Maen nhw wedi arfer cael eu rheoleiddio erbyn hyn. Fydden nhw, rydw i'n credu, efallai ddim cweit yn croesawu ond yn sicr yn gweld rhesymeg y safonau. Rŷm ni'n gweithio'n agos gyda nhw ac, yn aml, maen nhw—. Nid wyf i'n credu y bydden nhw'n wrthwynebus i'r cysyniad hwnnw ac, yn sicr, ni fyddwn i'n wrthwynebus i'r cysyniad o fanciau yn dod o dan safonau. Byddai modd gwneud hynny drwy ymestyn y Mesur presennol ar ryw adeg.

As Dyfan has explained, we work closely with them. Questions do arise, certainly, with the financial sector—the banking sector. They have become used to regulation now. They, I think, perhaps wouldn't welcome but would certainly understand the rationale of standards. We work closely with them and, very often—. I don't think that they would oppose that concept, and certainly I wouldn't oppose seeing the banks included under standards. That could be done through extending the current Measure at some point.

Nid oes angen deddfwriaeth newydd er mwyn dod â'r safonau i fewn i'r sector breifat.

So, there's no need for new legislation in order to bring standards into the private sector.

Rydw i'n credu mai arbenigwyr cyfansoddiadol yn fan hyn fyddai'n gallu delio â hynny.

I think that it is constitutional experts here who could perhaps deal with that question.

Ocê. Iawn. Gwnawn ni ofyn iddyn nhw ar ôl y pwyllgor yma. Jyst i orffen, te, wedyn, Mick Antoniw.

Okay. We will ask them after we conclude this committee meeting. Just to finish, Mick Antoniw.

I'll be very quick and very succinct, then, because of time. On the issue of legislation—. Well, with language policy, generally, there seem to be three components. One is the legislation, the second one is teaching and knowledge, and the third one is the use. The latter two go into the strategy bit. So, just on the legislation bit to start with, do you think there's really been just too much focus to this? In many ways, the focus on legislation itself is a distraction from the key challenges.

Buaswn i'n dadlau bod deddfwriaeth yn eithriadol o bwysig, ond mae deddfwriaeth gennym ni ar hyn o bryd. Mae Mesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011 yn bodoli, ac rydw i'n credu bod yna gyfle nawr i edrych ar y meysydd hanfodol bwysig hynny, sef addysg—byddwn i'n dadlau bod yr addysg cyn-16 ac addysg ôl-16 yn hollbwysig o ran creu gweithlu dwyieithog yng Nghymru. Mae defnydd yn sialens lle allwch chi ddim deddfu i orfodi rhywun i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg. Nid wyf i'n credu ein bod ni'n dod i'r math yna o sefyllfa, ond mae yna ffyrdd eraill o annog defnydd, a dyna lle mae angen y pwyslais.

I would argue that legislation is exceptionally important, but we have legislation currently. We have the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011, and I do think that there is an opportunity now to look at those crucial areas, namely education—I would argue that pre-16 and post-16 education are crucially important in creating a bilingual workforce in Wales. Language use is a challenge where you can't legislate. You can't force anyone to use the Welsh language through legislation. I can't see us getting to that kind of situation, but there are other ways of encouraging language use, and that's where the emphasis needs to be.

I suppose the point on that is the recognition that you can increase the numbers, but the language can still be in decline. There are international examples, really, around where that is happening.

In terms of the issue of merits for a single regulatory body, what would be—quickly—your pros and cons of creating a single regulatory body to do that? I suppose we're effectively talking about the Government's proposals to effectively create almost a Welsh language tribunal.

Mae gyda ni driwbiwnlys y Gymraeg, wrth gwrs, yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r pwerau rheoleiddio sy'n eistedd gyda ni yn rhai sylweddol. Mae'n ddyddiau cynnar o ran ni'n defnyddio'r pwerau hynny. Fel rŷch chi'n ymwybydol, yn y ddeddfwriaeth mae yna ystod o bethau y gallem ni eu gwneud o ran gorfodi. Mae yna ysgol o ymyriadau prin wedi dechrau o ran y gorfodi yr ydym ni wedi ei wneud. So, eto, buaswn i'n dadlau bod sgôp o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol a, gydag amser, mi welwn ni pa mor llwyddiannus yw hynny. Ond megis dechrau yr ydym ni o ran defnyddio'r ddeddfwriaeth bresennol.

We have a Welsh language tribunal, of course, currently in existence. The regulatory powers that are held by us are substantial. It's early days in terms of us using those powers. As you will be aware, in the legislation there is a range of things that we can do in terms of enforcement. There is a scale of enforcements, so our work on enforcement is only just starting. So, I would argue that there is scope within the current legislation and, with time, we will see how successful that is. But we are only now starting to use the current legislation.

And, very quickly, do you think we could be doing more in terms of engagement with other countries that are doing something similar, and that there are ongoing lessons to be learned from other countries?

12:05

Rydw i'n credu'n wastod y gallem ni fod yn trafod mwy gyda phartneriaid mewn gwledydd eraill. Efallai eich bod yn ymwybodol fy mod i newydd gamu i lawr fel cadeirydd yr International Association of Language Commissioners. Felly, mae yna drafod ar lefel Canada, Iwerddon, Kosovo a Gwlad y Basg a Chatalwnia—y gwledydd hynny sydd ag ieithoedd lleiafrifol. Rŷm ni wedi dysgu lot fawr oddi wrthyn nhw. Rydw i wedi dysgu lot fawr iawn, iawn o Ganada o ran pwysigrwydd y cynnig rhagweithiol—nid jest darparu gwasanaeth, ond marchnata gwasanaeth er mwyn creu defnydd. Yn eironig, mae Iwerddon yn edrych arnom ni ar hyn o bryd fel yr esiampl o ddeddfwriaeth y buasen nhw yn dymuno ei fabwysiadu. Mae ganddyn nhw strwythur o gynlluniau iaith y buasen nhw, rydw i'n credu, yn dweud sydd ddim yn gweithio o gwbl. Maen nhw ar hyn o bryd yn trafod heads of legislation er mwyn cael safonau yn weithredol yn Iwerddon. So, rŷm ni'n gallu dysgu, ond nid wyf i'n credu ein bod ni'n wastod yn sylweddoli ein bod ni'n cael ein gweld fel esiampl o arfer dda yn rhyngwladol o ran deddfwriaeth ar hyn o bryd.

I always believe that we could have more discussions with partners in other countries. You may be aware that I've just stepped down as the chair of the International Association of Language Commissioners. So, discussions are ongoing in Canada, Ireland, Kosovo and the Basque Country and Catalonia—those countries that have minority languages. We have learned a great deal from them, and I have learnt a great deal from Canada as regards the importance of the proactive offer—not just delivering a service, but marketing that service in order to create demand. Ironically, Ireland looks to Wales at present as the exemplar for legislation that they would wish to adopt. They have a structure of language schemes that they, I believe, would say doesn't work at all. They are in negotiations at the moment on heads of legislation in order to implement standards in Ireland. So, we are able to learn, but I don't believe that we always realise that we are viewed as an example of good practice internationally as regards legislation at present.

A allaf i jest ofyn cwestiwn clou, achos rŷm ni eisiau ei gael e ar y record? Efallai y byddai Llywodraeth Cymru yn dod yn ôl, o ran creu comisiwn, a dweud bod yna esiamplau rhyngwladol lle maen nhw'n gwneud mwy na dim ond yr iaith. Rwy'n credu bod Kosovo, o fewn cwmpawd gwaith y comisiynydd, yn gwneud pethau mwy eang nag iaith; maen nhw'n gwneud pethau ynglŷn â hawliau dynol hefyd. Felly, byddai ei droi e'n gomisiwn yn caniatáu arbenigedd gwahanol o gwmpas y bwrdd yn hytrach na bod yna un comisiynydd. Dyna, efallai, yr hyn rwy'n dechrau ei glywed gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Beth fyddech chi'n dweud am hynny?

Can I just ask a quick question, because I want to get it on the record? Perhaps the Welsh Government would come back on the issue of the creation of a commission and say that there are international examples where they do more than simply deal with the language. I think that in Kosovo, within the scope of the commissioner's activity, it is broader than simply just the language; it's about human rights too. So, turning it into a commission would bring in different expertise around the table rather than having a single commissioner in place. That is perhaps what I'm starting to hear from the Welsh Government. How would you respond to that?

Yn Kosovo, comisiynydd iaith annibynnol ar fodel tebyg iawn i beth sydd gyda ni yng Nghymru sy'n bodoli. Mae e wedi cael ei sefydlu o dan amodau gwahanol iawn yn dilyn, wrth gwrs, yr ymladd fuodd yn Kosovo, felly mae yna, yn naturiol, elfen o hawliau dynol, ond mae'r remit fwy neu lai'n gywir run fath â'r remit sydd gen i fel comisiynydd iaith.

In Kosovo, there is an independent language commissioner with a very similar model to the one we have here in Wales. It has been established under very different conditions, of course, following the fighting that took place in Kosovo, so, naturally, there is an element of human rights there, but the remit is almost exactly the same as the remit that I have as a language commissioner.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Os oes mwy o gwestiynau—rwyf ar ddeall eich bod wedi rhoi amserlenni gwaith i ni o ran deddfwriaeth o'r blaen—ac os oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol yr hoffech chi ei roi inni, byddai hynny'n grêt hefyd. Os oes mwy o gwestiynau, byddwn ni'n ysgrifennu atoch chi. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much for that. If there are further questions—and I do understand that you have provided us with some timelines in terms of legislation in the past—or if there is anything that you would like to add, then we would welcome that of course. If we do have further questions, we will write to you with those. But thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr, ac mi fyddwn ni yma eto ymhen pythefnos yn edrych ar yr adroddiad sicrwydd a'r adroddiad blynyddol, ac os oes yna unrhyw gwestiynau ychwanegol neu unrhyw dystiolaeth ychwanegol, rydw i'n sicr y gallwn ni ddefnyddio’r sesiynau yna i rannu hynny.

Thank you very much, and we will be here again in a fortnight, looking at the assurance report and the annual report, and if there are any additional questions or any further evidence, then I'm sure that we can use those sessions in order to deal with that. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

Thanks very much to you.

4. Papurau i’w nodi
4. Papers to note

Symudwn ymlaen at eitem 4—papurau i'w nodi. Mae 4.1 ar gyllid ar gyfer addysg gerddoriaeth gan Making Music. Mae yna lythyr gan Gerddorfa Genedlaethol Cymru a Chorws Cenedlaethol Cymru y BBC—jest i roi ar y record ein bod ni'n mynd i fod yn trafod y gwaith hwnnw yn y sesiwn preifat. Ac wedyn, mae yna lythyr arall gan Ffilm Cymru Wales ynglŷn â chynyrchiadau ffilm a theledu mawr yng Nghymru, ac, eto, byddwn ni'n trafod hynny yn y sesiwn preifat.

Wedyn, mae yna lythyr gan y Llywydd ataf i ar raglen Senedd@. Rwy jest eisiau atgoffa Aelodau yma heddiw ein bod ni wedi cytuno y bydd y pwyllgor yn cynnal ein cyfarfod ar 6 Rhagfyr yn Aberystwyth fel rhan o fenter Senedd@. Felly, cadwch hynny'n rhydd yn eich dyddiaduron. A oes unrhyw sylwadau gan Aelodau yn hynny o beth? Na.

We will move on to item 4—papers to note. We have paper 4.1 on funding for and access to music education, and that's a letter from Making Music. There's a letter from the BBC National Orchestra and Chorus of Wales—just to put on record that we'll be discussing that work in our private session. And then there's another letter from Ffilm Cymru Wales on film and major television production in Wales, and, again, we will discuss that in our private session.

And then, there's a letter from the Llywydd to me on the Senedd@ programme. I will just remind Members that we have agreed that the committee will meet on 6 December in Aberystwyth as part of the Senedd@ programme. So, please keep that free in your diaries. Are there any comments from Members? No.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Eitem 5 yw cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y sesiwn. A yw pawb yn hapus gyda hynny? Hapus ac yn llawen. Diolch.

Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Is everyone content? Everyone is content. Thank you.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 12:09.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 12:09.

Archwilio Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru