Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Yn ôl i Chwilio

Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

01/02/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Jenkins AC Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Lee Waters AC
Mick Antoniw AC
Rhianon Passmore AC
Sian Gwenllian AC
Suzy Davies AC

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Lowri Harries Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Manon Huws Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Martin Jennings Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Steve George Clerc
Clerk

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9:32.

The meeting began at 9:32.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Croeso i Bwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Eitem 1: cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. A oes gydag unrhyw Aelod rhywbeth i'w ddatgan heddiw? Yr unig beth sydd gennyf i'w ddatgan yw beth gwnes i ddatgan o'r blaen, sef bod fy nhad i wedi gweithio gyda Chyngor Llyfrau Cymru a Llenyddiaeth Cymru fel awdur. 

Ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon: ymddiheuriadau gan Neil Hamilton a Jenny Rathbone. Nid ydym ni'n disgwyl dirprwyon yn y cyfarfod yma. 

Welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. The first item is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations. Anything to declare today? The only thing I have to declare is something I've previously declared, which is that my father has previously worked with the Welsh Books Council and Literature Wales as an author. 

Apologies and substitutions: apologies from Neil Hamilton and Jenny Rathbone. We're not expecting any substitutions in this meeting. 

2. Papurau i'w nodi
2. Paper(s) to note

Eitem 2: papurau i'w nodi. Mae'r papurau i'w nodi fel a ganlyn: 2.1, gohebiaeth gan y Gweinidog Diwylliant, Twristiaeth a Chwaraeon—gwybodaeth ategol yn dilyn tystiolaeth y Gweinidog ar 6 Rhagfyr; cynrychiolwyr diwylliannol i Tsiena, adroddiad i'r Llywodraeth gan Gelfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru; a ffrydiau gwaith partneriaeth strategol Cymru Hanesyddol, cynnydd a dyheadau. A hefyd 2.2, gohebiaeth gan Arweinydd y Tŷ a'r Prif Chwip, craffu ar baratoad cyfrifiad poblogaeth 2021.

Ar eitem 2.2, mae swyddogion yn argymell y dylai'r pwyllgor wahodd y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, yr ONS, i roi tystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor. Mae'r ONS wedi treulio blynyddoedd yn ymchwilio a phrofi cwestiynau am gyfrifiad 2021, ond serch hynny mae nifer fawr o faterion lle nad oes gan yr ONS opsiwn dewisol o hyd. O ddiddordeb uniongyrchol i'r pwyllgor yma, mae hwn yn cynnwys y cwestiwn, neu gwestiynau, ar yr iaith Gymraeg, ac, rydw i'n credu, fel sydd wedi cael ei grybwyll—roedd Mike Hedges wedi codi hwn yn y Senedd ddoe—nad oes dim opsiwn dewisol pendant ar ryw neu ar dueddfryd rhywiol. 

Mae Martin Jennings o'r Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yn mynychu'r cyfarfod i ateb unrhyw gwestiynau sydd gan Aelodau ar y meysydd lle mae'r pwyllgorau yn cael siawns i ddylanwadu ar yr ONS. Felly, os oes gan unrhyw Aelodau gwestiynau ar naill lythyr neu'r llal, efallai ar yr ONS yn gyntaf, neu—. Lee Waters. 

Item 2: papers to note. They are as follows: 2.1, correspondence from the Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport—additional information following his evidence on 6 December; cultural delegation to China, report to the Government by Wales Arts International; and Historic Wales strategic partnership workstreams, progress and aspirations. Also 2.2, scrutiny of preparations for the 2021 census of population, correspondence from Julie James AM, leader of the house.

On 2.2, officers are suggesting that we extend an invitation to the ONS to come and give us evidence. They spent many years testing questions for the 2021 census, but there are many issues where the ONS do not have options available within questions of specific interest to this committee, and this includes, perhaps, questions in relation to the Welsh language, and, as has been mentioned previously—Mike Hedges raised this yesterday in the Senedd—there is no specific option in relation to gender and sexual orientation.

Martin Jennings is here to answer any questions that Members may have on those areas. So, we have an opportunity perhaps to influence the ONS. Do any Members have any questions about any of those letters—maybe specifically on the ONS first? Lee Waters.

I have a point on the Historic Wales paper. Shall I come to that now?

I think it's underwhelming. I think the ambition for progress and the aspirations—well, the progress, some of it, is risible, and the aspirations aren't particularly stretching, and there's no clear timeline or any metrics at all next to them. So I suggest that we keep a close eye on this and ask for further information from the Minister about timings and clear milestones for us to come back to it.

Yes, I agree, because of course he said in his evidence that he wasn't convinced about an advisory group, which is in the legislation, so if this is going to be his marker for progess then we need to make sure that we can see timelines and achievements, really. Suzy Davies. 

I'd just go a little bit further than that, perhaps as well as asking for those, to say: can you report back to us at regular intervals? It's up to us to choose the interval, so that, actually, we keep him to a timetable as well as in the—. I don't—

09:35

Yes, we can factor that in via the team here—put some diary markers in as to when would be appropriate.

Yes, they could be written updates, unless we start to worry that the written updates are a bit thin.

Okay. Any other comments on that or on the other paper from the Minister? 

No. Did you want to comment on the Office for National Statistics?

Well, I'm sure Siân will have something to say—. You go first.

Roeddwn i jest eisiau gwybod beth oedd yr amserlen, a faint o gyfle sydd yna, mewn gwirionedd, i'r Cynulliad ddylanwadu, nid yn unig ar y broses, ond ar gynnwys rhai o gwestiynau'r cyfrifiad.

I just wanted to know what the timetable for this is, and how much opportunity there will be for the Assembly to influence, not only the process, but also the content of some of the questions in the census.

The census 2021 is planned to take place in the spring of 2021, so whilst it seems a long way away, a lot of the work has now been done. The Office for National Statistics is responsible for the census in England and Wales, and what is happening now is that, as Bethan was saying, there's been a lot of work in terms of investigating, consulting on and testing out questions.

There will be a UK Government White Paper, which will set out the date and suggested census questions, and we'd expect that to happen later in this year, or early in 2019—it depends a bit on getting time in Westminster. Following that, a census Order would be expected to be considered by the UK Parliament in 2019, probably at the end of the year. And what comes here are census regulations, but that would probably be in early 2020. That sets out the delivery and collection methods, so that's really nothing to do with the questions.

So, why this is being considered now, really, is that this is the best opportunity to be able to influence questions in the census leading up to that White Paper. What else is there—?

Mae'n ymddangos, felly, mai rŵan ydy'r amser priodol i ni gael tystiolaeth—gwahodd rhywun o swyddfa'r ONS i mewn i ateb cwestiynau. Y ddau beth y byddwn i'n tybio y bydd gan y pwyllgor yma ddiddordeb ynddyn nhw ydy geiriad y cwestiwn ynglŷn â'r iaith Gymraeg—nifer y siaradwyr. Mae yna rywfaint o ddadlau ynglŷn â sut yn union y dylai'r geiriad yna ymddangos. Wedyn, mae'r mater yma: a ddylid cyfrif siaradwyr Cymraeg y tu draw i Gymru—siaradwyr Cymraeg yn Lloegr—yn rhan o hyn? Oherwydd, mae yna rai miloedd, mae'n debyg, ochr draw'r ffin, a byddai'n ddiddorol iawn cael y wybodaeth yna hefyd. Felly, mae hynny'n fater priodol iawn i'r pwyllgor yma drio cael dylanwad arno fo, byddwn i'n tybio. Buaswn i'n meddwl y byddai'n syniad gwych i gael rhywun i mewn yma i ni fynd ar ôl hynny, a hefyd i feddwl sut yn union mae'r Cynulliad yn mynd i geisio cael dylanwad ar y broses, achos buasem ni, fell pwyllgor, efallai'n medru gwneud argymhellion, ond tybed a oes angen rhywbeth ar lefel llawr y Siambr i grynhoi beth ydy safbwynt y Cynulliad ar y mater yma.

It appears, therefore, that now is the appropriate time for us to take evidence from the ONS and to invite them in to answer our questions. The two things I would think that this committee would be interested in is the wording of the question on the Welsh language in terms of the number of speakers. There has been some debate as to how exactly that wording should appear on the census. Then, there's this issue of whether Welsh speakers outwith Wales—Welsh speakers in England—should be counted. Because there are many thousands, apparently, over the border, and it would be very interesting to have that information too. So, I think that's a very appropriate issue for this committee to influence, I would've thought. I would suggest that it would be an excellent idea to get someone in to give us evidence so that we can pursue that, and also to consider how exactly the Assembly is going to seek to influence this process, because, we, as a committee, could make recommendations, but I'm wondering whether we need something in the Chamber to summarise the views of the Assembly on this issue.

Martin, did you want to come back on those points? Suzy, did you have anything else to add?

Just some of that, and you went further than what I was going to ask. The question I had, because I was sitting behind Alun Davies yesterday when Mike was asking his question, and Alun said, 'Oh, I don't actually agree with Mike about what type of questions should be asked.' So, I suppose my general question to you is: how will ONS balance the views put forward by the Assembly, which could be different from—I know Alun's not the Minister—whoever the Minister would be, and that they listen to—?

Yes, I think definitely—you're both absolutely right. and the ONS could come and talk to you about the work they do, and I know that there are stakeholders from all around Wales who're feeding in through the census advisory group on an officials level.

The questions that you've raised are all questions that they're considering, and if you get them in, they could talk to you about that, and they'll also talk about the fact that one of the most important things is getting that consistency of data between 10 years—being able to record progress towards meeting the 1 million-plus speakers in Wales, and then looking at other services that they do. They can talk to you about the work that they do in terms of the use of Welsh and the sort of level of detail we need to get into questions and whether they need face-to-face discussions with people.

So, definitely the questions you're raising are the ones that'll be really good to raise with the ONS and now really is the time to do it.  And then, again, you can talk about the balance of how they would view the Assembly's views and different people in the Assembly, and very much the questions that you've been raising that would have been raised in the Welsh language focus groups they've been running as well. 

09:40

Ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r cwestiynau eraill yn ymwneud efo'r Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, ac mae rhai ohonom ni ar y pwyllgor yna hefyd. Felly, mi fyddai o yn briodol, efallai, i feddwl am ryw fath o sesiwn ar y cyd neu geisio eu cael nhw yma yr un diwrnod, beth bynnag, fel ein bod ni'n gallu eu holi nhw am hynny hefyd, achos mae'r agwedd yna yn bwysig, onid ydy?  

And, of course, some of the other questions would be relevant to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, and some of us are also on that committee. So, it would be appropriate, perhaps, to think of having a joint session, or to try to get them here on the same day at least, so that we can question them on those issues too, because those aspects are important too, aren't they? 

Mae hynny'n syniad da, efallai, achos mae'r elfen gyda ni—. Wel, mae'n bwysig ac mae'n weddol fach, ac efallai y byddai sesiwn ar y cyd yn gwneud mwy o synnwyr o ran amser, achos mae cwestiynau o ran hunaniaeth Gymreig yn rhan o hynny. So, fe wnawn ni edrych i ofyn i'r ONS ddod mewn, os yw hynny'n iawn gyda phawb. 

Ocê, symudwn ymlaen—[Torri ar draws.]

That's a good idea, because we're looking at a very important element but, of course, it's quite a small element, so maybe a joint session would be a more sensible option in terms of time, because there are questions regarding Welsh identity also, of course. So, we'll look to ask the ONS to come in, if that's okay with everyone. 

Okay, we'll move on—[Interruption.]

Sorry, Rhianon—I missed you there. 

I missed it earlier on. With regard to the paper on the cultural delegation to China, obviously we've received this paper to this committee today, as we requested. I'm really interested with regard to how the trade missions occur in terms of, 'Is it chicken and egg?', 'Is it attached to a wider trade mission moving forward?', and if so, in terms of the arts agenda and tourism and around cultural branding, and how important that is going to continue to be to us in the future, 'What is going to happen in terms of reporting back to this committee?' Is there a systemic strategy around arts and trade missions, or is it just something ad hoc that occurs on the back of something else? 

I don't know if you recall, we've got a report imminent on the non-public funding of the arts where we've made certain recommendations. That's yet to be published, so if you have any additional views we can feed that into there. But I think the point we want to make is that when we heard evidence, people said that it has to be more strategic because we know of brass bands from the Valleys that have gone internationally, but potentially haven't been part of what the Government is doing on the economic front. So, we'll definitely feed your views in that way. 

3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22 i ethol Cadeirydd dros dro ar gyfer y cyfarfodydd a ganlyn: 15 Chwefror a 28 Chwefror
3. Motion under Standing Order 17.22 to elect temporary Chair for the following meetings: 15 February and 28 February

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn ethol Cadeirydd dros dro yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.22 ar gyfer y cyfarfodydd a ganlyn: 15 Chwefror a 28 Chwefror. 

Motion:

that the committee elects a temporary Chair in accordance with Standing Order 17.22 for the following meetings: 15 February and 28 February.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Symudwn ymlaen i eitem 3, felly, a chynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22 i benodi Cadeirydd dros dro ar gyfer y cyfarfodydd a ganlyn: 15 Chwefror a 28 Chwefror. Bydd rhai Aelodau yn gwybod na fyddaf ar gael i gadeirio'r cyfarfodydd hynny oherwydd, fel mae'n dweud fan hyn, 'eich priodas'—fy mhriodas. Felly, mae angen penodi Cadeirydd dros dro am y cyfarfodydd hynny.

Yn fy absenoldeb, rwyf yn gwahodd y pwyllgor i benodi Siân Gwenllian fel Cadeirydd dros dro am y cyfarfodydd pwyllgor hynny. A ydy pawb yn hapus gyda hynny? A oes unrhyw un yn gwrthwynebu? Na. Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn, a phob lwc i Siân wrth wneud hynny. Rwy'n siŵr, fel y tro diwethaf, y byddwch chi'n wych.  

Moving on, therefore, to item 3, and a motion under Standing Order 17.22 to elect a temporary Chair for the following meetings: 15 February and 28 February. Some Members will be aware that I won't be here to chair the meetings on those dates because, as it says here, I'm getting married. Therefore, we need to appoint a temporary Chair for those meetings.

In my absence, I would like to invite the committee to appoint Siân Gwenllian as temporary Chair for those meetings. Is everyone content? Does anyone object? No. Thank you very much, and good luck to Sian in undertaking that role. I'm sure, as you were last time, you will be great.   

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion agreed.

Could we just add to the record, Chair, our congratulations to you and we wish you all the best? 

Oh, thank you, Lee. I'll bring you all back a present from India. [Laughter.] 

No, not chocolates. Something I can carry on the plane, yes. Diolch. 

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod ar gyfer y busnes a ganlyn: eitem 5 a'r cyfarfod ar 7 Chwefror 2018
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business: item 5 and the Meeting on 7 February 2018

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod ar gyfer y busnes a ganlyn: eitem 5 a'r cyfarfod ar 7 Chwefror 2018.

Motion:

that the committee in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) resolves to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business: item 5 and the meeting on 7 February 2018.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Symudwn ymlaen i eitem 4: cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod ar gyfer y busnes a ganlyn: eitem 5 a'r cyfarfod ar 7 Chwefror 2018. A ydy pawb yn hapus gyda hynny? Diolch. 

Moving on to item 4: a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business: item 5 and the meeting on 7 February 2018. Is everyone content? Thank you. 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:43.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 09:43.

Archwilio Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru