Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Yn ôl i Chwilio

Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

18/01/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Jenkins AC Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Jenny Rathbone AC
Lee Waters AC
Neil Hamilton AC
Sian Gwenllian AC
Suzy Davies AC

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Bethan Webb Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government
Dona Lewis Dirprwy Brif Weithredwr / Cyfarwyddwr Systemau, Y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol
Deputy Chief Executive / Director of Systems, National Centre for Learning Welsh
Dr Jeremy Evas Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government
Efa Gruffudd Jones Prif Weithredwr, Y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol
Chief Executive, National Centre for Learning Welsh
Eluned Morgan AC Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes
Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning
Helen Prosser Cyfarwyddwr Strategol, Y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol
Strategic Director, National Centre for Learning Welsh

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Lowri Harries Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Steve George Clerc
Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:33.

The meeting began at 09:33.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Croeso i Bwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma. Eitem 1 yw cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod rhywbeth i'w ddatgan yma heddiw? Na. Ymddiheuriadau: cafwyd ymddiheuriadau gan Mick Antoniw a Rhianon Passmore. Ni chafwyd unrhyw ymddiheuriadau eraill, ac nid ydym yn disgwyl dirprwyon ar gyfer y cyfarfod yma.

Welcome to the meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee this morning. Let's move to introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interests. Does any Member have anything to declare here today? No, nothing. We have had apologies from Mick Antoniw and Rhianon Passmore. We haven't had any other apologies, and we're not expecting any substitutes for the meeting today.

2. Y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Cenedlaethol: Craffu Cyffredinol
2. National Centre for Learning Welsh: General Scrutiny

Eitem 2, felly. Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen at y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol a chraffu cyffredinol. Rydym ni'n estyn croeso i Efa Gruffudd Jones fel prif weithredwr, Dona Lewis, sef y dirprwy brif weithredwr a chyfarwyddwr systemau, a hefyd Helen Prosser, sef y cyfarwyddwr strategol. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi. Rydw i ar ddeall mai dyma'r tro cyntaf i chi roi tystiolaeth ger ein bron. Fe wnawn ni drio bod mor neis ag yr ydym ni'n gallu. Fel arfer, mae gyda ni themâu gwahanol, felly, os yw'n iawn gyda chi, byddwn ni'n mynd yn syth at gwestiynau ar y themâu hynny. Siân Gwenllian sydd yn arwain yma heddiw.

Item 2, therefore. We're moving on to the National Centre for Learning Welsh: general scrutiny. We welcome Efa Gruffudd Jones, chief executive, Dona Lewis, deputy chief executive and director of systems, and Helen Prosser, strategic director. Thank you very much to you. I understand that this is the first time that you have given evidence, so we'll try and be as nice as possible to you. Usually, we follow different types of themes, so, if it's okay for you, we'll go straight into questions on those particular themes. Siân Gwenllian is going to start.

Bore da. Rydych chi'n gorff gweddol newydd—2016—er wrth gwrs mae dysgu Cymraeg i oedolion wedi bod o gwmpas ers talwm iawn. Sut mae'r corff newydd wedi ei sefydlu erbyn hyn? Mi oedd yna rywfaint o broblemau yn y cychwyn.

Good morning. You are a relatively new organisation—established in 2016—although Welsh for adults has been around for many years. How has the new body bedded in now? There were some problems initially, I understand.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, yn gyntaf, am y gwahoddiad i ddod yma. Rŷm ni'n falch iawn o'r cyfle i rannu ychydig am ein gwaith a, gobeithio, am ein llwyddiannau a'n gweledigaeth ni. Rŷch chi'n hollol gywir, Siân. Yn y flwyddyn 2015, fe enillodd Prifysgol Cymru y Drindod Dewi Sant y tendr i weithredu'r ganolfan genedlaethol, felly gwnaed argymhellion gan bwyllgor o dan gadeiryddiaeth Dr Haydn Edwards. Enw'r adroddiad oedd 'Codi golygon', a'r canlyniad oedd y dylid sefydlu yng Nghymru, am y tro cyntaf erioed, gorff cenedlaethol i arwain y maes Cymraeg i oedolion yn strategol. Ym mis Awst 2016, trosglwyddwyd y cyfrifoldebau'n llawn i'r ganolfan.5

Ers sefydlu'r ganolfan, rŷm ni wedi, wrth gwrs, gorfod gosod rhaglen waith yn ei lle, ac mi oedd y cyfnod cychwynnol o ad-drefnu yna yn heriol, am nifer o resymau. Ond, yn sicr, rydw i o'r farn ein bod ni bellach wedi'i sefydlu'n llwyddiannus. Mae gyda ni lywodraethiant cryf. Mae gyda ni 11 o ddarparwyr yn eu lle ar draws Cymru, sy'n cynnig y gwersi Cymraeg i oedolion, ac mae'r ganolfan, fel corff canolog cenedlaethol bellach wedi ymsefydlu gyda thîm o staff sydd yn rhoi ein cynllun strategol ni ar waith.

Thank you very much, first of all, for the invitation to come here today. We are very pleased to have the opportunity to share some information about our work, and, hopefully, about some of our successes and our vision. You are absolutely correct, Siân. In 2015, the University of Wales Trinity Saint David won the tender to operate the national centre, so recommendations were made by a committee under the chairmanship of Dr Haydn Edwards, and the name of the report was 'Raising our sights'. One of the issues that came from that was to establish a national body to lead the Welsh for adults area, and, in 2016, those responsibilities were transferred in full to the centre.

Since then, of course, we have put a work programme in place, and that first period of reorganisation was challenging for many different reasons, but, certainly, I believe that we have established ourselves successfully. We have strong governance. We have 11 providers in place across Wales who are offering the Welsh for adults lessons, and the centre, as a central national body, has become established with a team of staff who are putting our operational plan into place.

09:35

Ac rydw i'n credu mai rhan o'r syniad tu ôl i sefydlu'r corff oedd i roi'r arweiniad strategol cenedlaethol yna, a hefyd i wneud yn siŵr nad oes dyblygu gormodol. A ydy hynny wedi gweithio?

And I think that part of the concept underpinning the establishment of the body was to give that national strategic lead, and also to ensure that there wasn't excessive duplication. Has that worked?

Yn sicr. Buaswn i'n dweud mai un o lwyddiannau'r ganolfan yw'r ffaith ei bod hi'n ganolfan genedlaethol. Gobeithio y gallwn ni gael cyfle i ymhelaethu ychydig nes ymlaen, ond, yn sicr, mae nawr gyda ni'r corff cenedlaethol yma sydd, er enghraifft, yn datblygu cwrs cenedlaethol am y tro cyntaf erioed. Yn y gorffennol, mi oedd 14 o gyrsiau i ddechreuwyr yng Nghymru, er enghraifft. Erbyn hyn, rŷm ni yn peilota'r cwrs cyntaf cenedlaethol i ddechreuwyr, ac fe fyddwn ni'n gweithio drwy'r holl lefelau. Mae hynny, yn ei dro, yn arwain at bob math o gyfleoedd, ac mae'n dod â'r cyfan at ei gilydd ac yn golygu ein bod ni'n gallu gweithio yn llawer mwy partneriaethol gyda sefydliadau eraill yng Nghymru, ac fe allwn ni ymhelaethu ar y rheini nes ymlaen. 

Certainly. I would say that one of the successes of the centre is the fact that it is a national centre. I hope we can expand on that, perhaps, a little later on, but certainly now we have this national body in place, which, for example, is developing a national course for the first time ever. In the past, there were 14 courses for Welsh learners at a starter level, but now we're looking at a national level course for Welsh beginners, and we'll be working through all of the levels. That, of course, will lead to all types of opportunities, and pulls everything together to make sure that we can work in a far more partnership-based way with other organisations in Wales, and we can expand on that later.

A beth ydy'r cysylltiad rhyngoch chi a strategaeth Cymraeg 2050?

What's the link between yourselves and the Cymraeg 2050 strategy?

Yn fy marn i, mae gwaith y ganolfan yn greiddiol i gyflawni gweledigaeth y Llywodraeth o ran Cymraeg 2050. Mae Cymraeg 2050 wedi'i rhannu mewn i dair elfen, os hoffech chi, sef cynyddu'r niferoedd sy'n siarad Cymraeg, ac yn amlwg mae'r gyfundrefn o ddysgu Cymraeg mewn cymunedau trwy Gymru, ac mewn llefydd gwahanol yng Nghymru, yn gweithio. Ar hyn o bryd, mae yna oddeutu 13,000 yn dysgu Cymraeg yn gyson drwy'r flwyddyn, a thua 5,000 yn cymryd rhan mewn gweithgareddau dysgu atodol. Mae tua threian o'r rheini yn dysgu ar y lefelau canolradd ac uwch, ac, unwaith i ddysgwyr gyrraedd y lefel canolradd ac uwch, maen nhw'n gallu cynnal sgwrs gyda chi. Yn 2050, mae yna darged o 1,000 ychwanegol yn siarad Cymraeg drwy'r gyfundrefn dysgu Cymraeg i oedolion, ac rŷm ni'n hyderus y byddwn ni'n gallu cyrraedd hynny a mwy.

Yr ail thema i 2050 yw cynyddu’r defnydd o'r Gymraeg. Wrth gwrs, rŷm ni eisiau dysgu pobl i siarad Cymraeg, ond bron yr un mor bwysig neu'n fwy pwysig yw sicrhau bod dysgwyr yn cael cyfleoedd i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg. Ac felly mae gyda ni nifer o brojectau ar waith sy'n rhoi mwy o gyfleoedd i ddysgwyr ddefnyddio eu Cymraeg, gan gynnwys cynllun newydd i gyflwyno'r Gymraeg yn y gweithle, ac rŷm ni wedi peilota nifer o brosiectau yn ymwneud â dod a dysgwyr a siaradwyr at ei gilydd.

Trydydd thema 2050 yw rhoi amodau ffafriol i ffyniant y Gymraeg, ac, yn amlwg, rŷm ni'n cydweithio â nifer fawr o bartneriaid, i sicrhau bod dysgwyr yn gallu croesi'r bont.

Felly, i raddau, nid ydw i'n gweld strategaeth y ganolfan yn rhywbeth ar wahân i Cymraeg 2050. Mae'r ddwy strategaeth yn cyd-blethu, a bron dyna ran o bwrpas y ganolfan: gwireddu dyheadau'r Llywodraeth o ran cynyddu'r niferoedd sy'n gallu siarad a defnyddio'r Gymraeg.

In my opinion, the work of the centre is core when it comes to fulfilling the Government's ambition for Cymraeg 2050. Cymraeg 2050 is divided into three elements, so that's to increase the numbers speaking Welsh, and of course the system we have of teaching Welsh throughout communities in Wales, and in different places in Wales, does work. At the moment, there are some 13,000 people learning Welsh throughout the year, and around 5,000 taking part in activities related to learning. Some third of them are learning on the intermediate and higher levels, and once learners get to the intermediate and higher levels, they are able to hold a conversation with you. In 2050, there is an additional target to have an extra 1,000 speaking Welsh through the Welsh for adults regime, and we are confident we'll be able to reach that and exceed it.

The second theme for 2050 is to increase the use of Welsh, and, of course, we need to teach people to speak Welsh, but also it's just as important to make sure that learners have those opportunities to use the Welsh language. And therefore we have many projects that are happening at the moment that give learners more opportunities to use their Welsh, which includes a new scheme to introduce Welsh in the workplace, and we have piloted many different projects in relation to bringing learners and Welsh speakers together. 

The third theme of 2050 is to put conditions in place that will help the Welsh language to thrive, and of course we work closely with many partnerships to make sure that learners can make that step and become fluent.

So, I don't see the centre's strategy as something separate to 2050. I see them coming together very well, and that's a very important part of the whole purpose of the centre: to realise the Government's ambitions and increase the numbers who can speak Welsh.

Pa mor hawdd ydy cyrraedd at y nod yn y strategaeth drwy'r gwaith rydych chi'n ei wneud? Pa mor heriol ydy'r uchelgais?

How easily attainable are those targets in the strategy through the work that you're doing? How challenging is that ambition?

09:40

Mae'r niferoedd sydd yn y strategaeth yn amlwg yn heriol a thu hwnt i beth mae’r ganolfan yn ei gwneud ar hyn o bryd, ond, os ydych chi'n edrych ar raglen waith y Llywodraeth, rŷch chi’n gallu gweld sut mae gwaith y ganolfan yn cyfrannu at gyflawni’r targed heriol hwnnw.

O ran beth rŷm ni’n ei weld sy’n digwydd yn ein gwaith ni a’n cyflawniad ni ar hyn o bryd, rŷm ni’n sicr ar drac i gyflawni’r cyfrifoldeb sydd gan y ganolfan o fewn darparu’r cynnydd y mae’r Llywodraeth am ei weld o fewn y strategaeth. 

The numbers in the strategy, of course, are challenging and beyond what the centre is doing at the moment, but, if you look at the Government's work programme, you can see how the work of the centre contributes to achieving that target, which is challenging.

In relation to what we see happening in our work and our achievements at the moment, we certainly are on track to achieve the centre's responsibilities in relation to providing the increase the Government would like to see within the strategy.

Fe ddown ni nôl at rai o’r pwyntiau yna, rydw i’n siŵr. Diolch.

I think we'll come back to some of those points. Thank you.

Ocê. Symudwn ymlaen at Jenny Rathbone.

Moving on to Jenny Rathbone.

Hello. Bore da. One of your strategic objectives is to develop attractive and suitable courses for learners, making full use of the latest technology, and I wondered if you could expand on how far you've got on that.

Ocê. Yn sicr, un o’n hamcanion strategol ni yw creu adnoddau newydd a defnyddio technoleg. Rydw i’n mynd i ofyn i Helen yn gyntaf sôn am y cynnwys addysgol, ac wedyn fe wnaf i ofyn i Dona egluro sut rŷm ni’n cyflawni’n gwaith ac yn hyrwyddo’r gwaith digidol.

Okay. Certainly, one of our strategic objectives is to generate new resources and to use technology. I am going to ask Helen first of all to talk about the educational content, and then Dona can explain how we deliver our work and promote our digital work.

Diolch. Fel nododd Efa, os ydych chi'n dechrau dysgu Cymraeg ar hyn o bryd, mae yna 14 o fersiynau gwahanol o’r gwerslyfr. Mae hynny’n gallu bod yn fanteisiol, wrth gwrs, ond, i yrru strategaeth genedlaethol yn ei blaen, mae hynny, wedyn, yn anodd iawn. Felly, y peth cyntaf wnaethom ni oedd sefydlu cwricwlwm cenedlaethol Cymraeg i oedolion, ac mae wedi ei fapio yn erbyn y fframwaith Ewropeaidd. Rydw i’n credu bod hwnnw’n ddatblygiad mawr hefyd. Os ydych chi eisiau dysgu unrhyw iaith fodern dramor, rŷch chi’n gwybod a ydych yn lefel A1, A2, B1, B2. Felly, mae hwnnw gyda ni nawr yn y Gymraeg. Ond, wrth gwrs, mewn gwirionedd, rhywbeth i eistedd yn y cefndir yw’r cwricwlwm. Yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw beth ddaw allan ohono.

Felly, i ateb eich cwestiwn chi, rydyn ni eleni yn peilota dwy lefel wahanol. Efallai nad yw pawb yn ymwybodol o’r lefelau. Mae gyda ni bedair prif lefel: mynediad, sylfaen, canolradd ac uwch. Rydym ni wedi cychwyn yr awduro gyda mynediad ac uwch. Rydym ni’n peilota mynediad yn y gogledd eleni ac uwch yn y de. Mi fydd y rhain yn weithredol ar draws Cymru o fis Medi nesaf ymlaen. Dyma enghraifft o’r cwrs uwch.

Felly, rydym ni’n hapus iawn gyda’r cynnydd sydd gyda ni a beth sy’n braf iawn am y tro cyntaf, nid jest bod cwrs cenedlaethol, ond mae’n cael ei beilota. Mae ein cyfarfodydd cyntaf gyda’r tiwtoriaid yr wythnos yma, ac rydym ni’n mynd ati nawr i ail-lunio ac ailwampio. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae’r adnoddau digidol wedyn yna i ategu, felly, rydw i’n mynd i drosglwyddo i Dona.

Thank you. As Efa noted, if you're starting to learn Welsh right now, there are 14 different versions of the textbook. That can be advantageous, of course, but, in order to drive a national strategy forward, that is quite difficult. So, the first thing we did was to establish a national curriculum for Welsh for adults, and it's been mapped against the European framework. I think that's a very important development. If you want to learn any modern foreign language, you know whether you're on level A1, A2 or B1 or B2. So, we do now have this in Welsh. But the curriculum is something that actually sits in the background. What's important is what comes out of it.

So, to answer your question, this year, we are piloting two different levels. Perhaps not everyone is aware of those levels. We have four main levels: entry level, basic, intermediate and higher. We've begun with the entry level and the higher level. So, we are piloting the entry level in north Wales and the higher level in south Wales. These will be operational across Wales from next September. Here's an example for you of one of the higher textbooks.

We're very happy with the progress we're seeing here, and what's nice to see is that not only do we have a national course, but it is being piloted. Our first meetings with the tutors are happening this week, and we'll be looking then at changing it and revising it. Then, of course, we have those digital resources, so I'll pass to Dona for that.

Mae’r gwaith digidol wedi bod yn un o flaenoriaethau’r ganolfan dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Felly, am y tro cyntaf erioed, mae yna un safle cenedlaethol rhyngweithiol sydd ar gael i bob dysgwr i chwilio am gyrsiau. Mae yna dros ddwy fil o gyrsiau y mae dysgwyr yn gallu chwilio amdanyn nhw ar-lein. Maen nhw bellach yn gallu cofrestru ar-lein, maen nhw’n gallu talu ar-lein, maen nhw hefyd yn gallu cael mynediad at y llyfrgell adnoddau sydd yn fynediad agored—open access. Mae yna dros 200 o adnoddau digidol i gefnogi dysgu Cymraeg ar hyn o bryd ar gael ar y safle, a’r bwriad ydy parhau i ddatblygu'r elfen yna o’r gwaith.

Mi fyddwn ni hefyd, maes o law, yn datblygu fframwaith digidol ac y bydd y framwaith yn cwmpasu sut y byddwn ni’n datblygu ymhellach y gwaith digidol er mwyn bod yn arloesol, er mwyn sicrhau bod y cynnig digidol i ddysgwyr yn un cyffrous ac yn un newydd. A’r gobaith ydy y byddwn ni’n diffinio ac yn parhau i weithio ac yn datblygu cyrsiau cyfunol lle mae yna fodd i rywun ddysgu ar-lein ac yn y dosbarth. Mae gennym gwrs ar-lein am y tro cyntaf yn genedlaethol ar y safle rhyngweithiol newydd. Mae’n gwrs 10 awr, a’r bwriad ydy ein bod ni’n datblygu dau gwrs arall cyn diwedd mis Mawrth, fel bod gennym dri chwrs dysgu ar-lein pur hefyd ar gael i ddysgwyr ar-lein. Felly, bydd y fframwaith digidol yn sicr yn ein harwain ni ymlaen ar gyfer y blynyddoedd nesaf o’r gwaith digidol.

The digital work has been one of the priorities of the centre over the past year. So, for the first time ever, there is one national interactive site available for all learners, where they can seek courses. There are over 2,000 courses that learners can search online. You can register online, you can pay online, and learners can also have access to a library of resources, which is open access. There are over 200 digital resources to support Welsh learning at the moment, and they're available on the website, and the intention is to continue to develop that side of our work.

We will also, in due time, be developing a digital framework that will encompass how we develop further our digital work in order to be innovative and to ensure that the digital offer for learners is an exciting one and is new and attractive. The hope is that we will continue to work and develop combined courses where one can learn in the classroom and online. We do have an online course for the first time at a national level on our new interactive site. It's a 10-hour course, and the intention is to develop two further courses before the end of March so that we will have three purely online courses available for online learners. So, the digital framework will certainly take us forward for the next few years in terms of our digital output.

Is your focus just on adult learners, or do you also focus on learners from birth?

Ein prif nod ni ydy dysgwyr ôl-16 ymlaen; dyna ydy nod y ganolfan.

Our main focus is post-16 learners; that's the aim of the centre.

Okay. Fine. But one of the strategic objectives is to get more Welsh learners, and that means we need to have good teachers, starting with the early years. So, how are you supporting the quest for more Welsh-medium teachers—excellent Welsh-medium teachers?

09:45

Pwynt pwysig iawn, achos mae parhad pobl i ddysgu'r iaith yn dibynnu, wrth gwrs, ar diwtoriaid, a thiwtoriaid yw conglfaen ein gwasanaeth ni i ddysgwyr. Rŷch chi'n codi pwynt pwysig iawn—nid yw hyfforddi'r sector addysg ysgolion yn gyfrifoldeb i'r ganolfan. Beth sy'n gyfrifoldeb i'r ganolfan yw addysg Gymraeg i oedolion. Felly, nid ydym ni'n gyfrifol am roi hyfforddiant i athrawon, er enghraifft. Mae hynny'n fater y mae'r Llywodraeth yn delio ag ef ar wahân.

That's a very important point, of course, because getting people to learn Welsh depends on tutors, and that's the cornerstone of our service for learners. You raise a very important point—training the education sector in schools is not one of our responsibilities as a centre. Our responsibility is Welsh education for adults. So, we are not responsible for giving training to teachers, for example. That is something that the Government is dealing with separately.

Okay. So, do you have any of your digital resources aimed at parents to help them support their children with their Welsh-medium learning?

Ydym, yn union. Rŷm ni'n awyddus iawn i dargedu sectorau newydd ac, yn amlwg, mae targedu rhieni, yn enwedig rhieni sy'n anfon eu plant i addysg Gymraeg, yn flaenoriaeth. Mae'r math o waith y mae'r ganolfan wedi gallu'i wneud yn ddiweddar yn cynnwys sefydlu partneriaeth genedlaethol gyda Mudiad Meithrin, er enghraifft, lle rŷm ni'n mynd i fuddsoddi mewn sesiynau gyda rhieni sy'n anfon eu plant i gylchoedd Ti a Fi, er enghraifft, lle bydd y rhieni'n derbyn peth hyfforddiant Cymraeg a pheth hyfforddiant rhianta. Ein nod ni, wedyn, fydd gwneud yn siŵr bod y rhieni hynny'n gwybod lle y gallan nhw fynychu cyrsiau Cymraeg i oedolion sy'n lleol iddyn nhw. Felly, rŷm ni'n targedu rhieni wrth iddyn nhw wneud dewisiadau dros eu plant.

Rŷm ni hefyd yn gweithio, trwy ein darparwyr ni, i sicrhau bod dosbarthiadau Cymraeg ar gael mewn lleoliadau cyfleus i rieni. Ar hyn o bryd, mae yna gyrsiau penodol—'Cymraeg i'r teulu' yw'r enw arnyn nhw—ac maen nhw'n fwy llwyddiannus mewn rhai ardaloedd nag eraill, ond rŷm ni ar fin buddsoddi mewn projectau arloesol yn ardal Llanelli, er enghraifft, fydd yn targedu, eto, rhieni sydd yn anfon eu plant i ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn yr ardal honno. Ond, enghraifft yw honno'n unig; rŷm ni'n hollol ymwybodol o'r angen i dargedu rhieni ar draws Cymru ac mae yna fwy nag un ffordd o wneud hynny.

Yes, that's exactly what we have. We are looking at targeting new sectors, and certainly, targeting parents, especially parents who send their children to Welsh-medium education, is a priority for us. The sort of work the centre has been able to do recently includes establishing a national partnership with Mudiad Meithrin, for example, where we are going to invest in sessions with parents who send their children to the Ti a Fi sessions, for example, where parents will have some training in Welsh language and some training in parenting. Our goal then would be to make sure that those parents know where they can attend Welsh for adults courses that are local to them. So, we'll be targeting those parents as they make those choices for their children.

We are also working, through our providers, to ensure that Welsh classes are available in convenient locations for parents. At the moment, there are specific courses for Welsh for the family, and they are more successful in some areas than others, but we are looking at investing in innovative projects in Llanelli, for example, which will target those parents who are sending their children to Welsh-medium schools in that area. But, that's just an example, of course; we are very aware of the need to target parents across Wales and there's more than one way of doing that.

Okay. You mentioned your relationship with Mudiad Meithrin. How closely are you working with them? How do you know that you're not duplicating effort?

Dyma un o fanteision, mewn gwirionedd, sefydlu corff cenedlaethol, sef ein bod ni, ar lefel genedlaethol, yn gallu cynnal perthynas gyda nhw. Y llynedd, fe wnaethom weithio ar broject rhannu gwybodaeth yn unig gyda nhw. Eleni, rŷm ni wedi gallu buddsoddi mewn project go iawn, gyda phroject o'r enw Clwb Cwtsh wedi'i sefydlu, sydd wir yn bartneriaeth rhwng y ddau sefydliad, gan ein bod ni, mewn gwirionedd, yn targedu'r un gynulleidfa. Project peilot yw e; fe gawn ni weld pa mor llwyddiannus fydd e. Ond, beth sy'n bwysig nawr yw, nawr bod y berthynas genedlaethol wedi'i sefydlu, fod y berthynas leol yn datblygu rhwng swyddogion y mudiad a'n darparwyr ni ymhob man yng Nghymru. Ond, yn sicr, rŷm ni'n ei gweld fel partneriaeth strategol bwysig iawn.

This is one of the advantages, of course, of establishing a national body, in that we, on a national level, can maintain a relationship with them. Last year, we only worked on an information-sharing project with them. This year, we've been able to invest in a real project, if you like, establishing a project called Clwb Cwtsh, which is a true partnership between both organisations, because we are, really, targeting the same audience. It's a pilot project and we shall see how successful it will be. But, what's important now, because that national partnership has been established, is that we now look at the local relationships between the officers of Mudiad Meithrin and our providers in every area of Wales. But, certainly, we see it as a very important strategic partnership.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rydym yn symud ymlaen yn awr at farchnata a hyrwyddo. Suzy Davies.

Okay. Thank you. We'll move on now to marketing and promotion. Suzy Davies.

A allaf i jest ofyn, i ddechrau, a ydych chi'n gwybod faint o bobl sy'n gweithio gyda'r corff neu gyda'ch darparwyr sydd wedi dysgu Cymraeg fel oedolion eu hunain?

Could I just ask to start with, please, do you know how many people who are working with your providers have learnt Welsh as adults themselves?

Cwestiwn diddorol iawn. Rŷm ni newydd wneud ymchwil i'r gweithlu, gan fod y gweithlu'n bwysig i ni, ond nid wyf yn siŵr os ydy hynny'n un o'r cwestiynau sydd—

That's a very interesting question. We've just carried out some research into the workforce, because the workforce is important to us, but I'm not sure if it's one of the questions—

Mae e'n un o'r cwestiynau, ond nid yw'n ffigwr sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, ond fe allwn ni ei ddarparu i chi yn sicr. Roedd e'n un o'r cwestiynau ac roedd y ffigwr yn sylweddol.

It is one of the questions, but I don't have the figure in front of me at the moment, but I can provide that to you. It was one of the questions and the figure was quite high.

A fuaset ti'n gallu anfon rhywbeth pan fydd y canlyniadau wedi cael eu sortio? 

Could you send that to us once you have the results?

Wrth gwrs, ie.

Of course, yes.

Ond, mae'r ymchwil yna rŷm ni wedi'i wneud yn bwysig achos mae'n dangos bod gennym ni oddeutu 500 o diwtoriaid ar hyn o bryd, gyda tua 80 y cant yn gweithio'n rhan amser i'r maes. Felly, pan rŷm ni'n sôn am roi hyfforddiant a'u hyfforddi nhw mewn darparu cyrsiau newydd, mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn ymwybodol o beth yw natur y gweithlu rŷm ni'n gweithio gyda fe.

Hefyd, ni fydd yn syndod ichi glywed bod y nifer sy'n gweithio yn y maes o dan 30, er enghraifft, yn isel. Felly, dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy nesaf, yn amlwg, rŷm ni ar fin datblygu cynllun i ddatblygu'r gweithlu, lle y byddwn ni, efallai, yn targedu pobl o oedrannau is i ddod i mewn i'r sector i weithio. A hefyd, yn edrych ar sut allwn ni gynnig cymwysterau byr, o bosib, a fydd yn addas i bobl fydd yn gallu ein cynorthwyo ni, pobl o ansawdd uchel sy’n gallu darparu gwersi gwych. Felly, byddwn ni’n edrych ar hynny dros y cyfnod nesaf. Nid ydym ni wedi gwneud y gwaith yna eto, ond, yn sicr, wrth fynd ymlaen, dyna un o’r darnau mawr o waith sydd gennym ni.

But, that research that we have done is important, because it does demonstrate that we have around 500 tutors at the moment, with around 80 per cent working part-time in our field. So, when we're talking about providing training and training them in providing new courses, we do have to be aware of the nature of the workforce that we're working with.

Also, it'll come as no surprise for you to hear that the numbers working in this area under 30 are low. So, over the next few years, we need to look at that, and we're about to launch a scheme to develop the workforce, where we will, perhaps, be targeting people who are younger who may want to come into the sector to work. We'll also be looking at how we can offer some short courses leading to qualifications that will be suitable for people who can support us, people of high quality who can provide excellent lessons. So, we will be looking at that over the ensuing period. We haven't done that work as of yet, but, certainly, moving forward, that's a major piece of work for us.

09:50

Felly, rŷch chi'n targedu oedran yn lle gweithle penodol, er enghraifft. Rwy jest yn mynd drwy'r ffigurau roeddech chi wedi eu rhoi inni ynglŷn â'r sefydliadau yr ydych chi'n cysylltu â nhw ar hyn o bryd, ac rwy'n gweld eich bod chi'n gweithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, wrth gwrs, ac mae'n mynd reit lawr i gyrff sy'n cael eu noddi gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Rydw i'n gweld yn y sector preifat, dim ond 10 firm neu gwmni sydd yn cymryd rhan yn eich gwaith ar hyn o bryd. A ydyn nhw'n gwmnïau mawr? A ydych chi'n gallu jest rhannu tipyn bach o fanylion ar hynny?

So, you're targeting age rather than a particular workforce. Because I'm just looking at the figures you've given us here in relation to organisations you're in touch with at the moment, and you work, of course, with the Welsh Government, and it goes right down to bodies that are sponsored by the Welsh Government. I see in the private sector only 10 organisations are actually taking part in the work at the moment. Are they big companies? Can you perhaps share some information about that?

Dim problem. Mae'r cynllun Cymraeg Gwaith yn amlwg yn cynnig darpariaeth i weithleoedd yn benodol. Felly, mi ydym ni wedi peilota un cynllun ar raddfa fawr efo BT Cymru. Felly, efo BT Cymru, rydym ni wedi trafod lot efo rheolwyr uwch y cwmni ac rydym ni wedi datblygu cynllun sydd yn unigryw ar eu cyfer nhw, sydd yn arwain at 350 o'u staff nhw yn dysgu Cymraeg yn y ganolfan alwadau yn Abertawe. Roedd o'n beilot newydd inni. Yn amlwg, roeddem ni eisio gweld sut y byddai'n datblygu yn gweithio efo cwmni mawr fel BT. Mae'r cynllun wedi ei sefydlu, felly, yn sicr y bwriad ydy symud ymlaen i weithio efo rhai cwmnïau mawr eraill.

Rydym ni hefyd wedi sefydlu partneriaeth efo Busnes Cymru a'r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach er mwyn cyrraedd llawer mwy o fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint a chynnig hyfforddiant—

Yes, no problem. The Work Welsh scheme obviously provides help for specific workplaces. We have piloted one major scheme with BT Cymru. With BT, we've been having discussions with the senior management of the company and have developed a scheme that is unique for them, which has led to 350 of their staff learning Welsh in the call centre in Swansea. So, it was a new pilot for us, and we wanted to see how that developed when working with a large company such as BT. So, that scheme is in place, and the intention now is to work with other large companies.

We've also formed a partnership with the Federation of Small Businesses and Business Wales in order to access far more small and medium-sized enterprises and to provide training to them—

Sori, nid oeddwn eisiau mynd yn groes i ti yn fanna. Yr ydych chi newydd ddechrau'r gwaith yma, achos, wrth gwrs, rydych chi'n gwybod bod Cymru'n dibynnu ar—nid wyf i'n cofio'r ffigurau off top fy mhen i nawr, ond mae'r mwyafrif o'n busnesau yn fusnesau bychain iawn, iawn, felly mae'n bwysig o'm safbwynt i eich bod chi'n gweithio gyda nhw hefyd ac yn ffeindio ffyrdd i weithio gyda nhw sydd ddim yn dibynnu ar bobl yn dod mas o'r gweithle—sori, gweithlu; defnyddiais yr un anghywir. Pryd ydych chi'n mynd i ddechrau ar hynny, achos mae'n bwysig imi ddeall beth fydd eich targedau yn ystod y pum mlynedd nesaf?

Sorry, I don't want to interrupt. You're saying that you've just started this work. Of course, Wales depends very much on—I don't remember the figures off the top of my head, but most businesses in Wales are very, very small businesses, aren't they? So, it's important from my point of view that you work with them also and find a way of working with them that doesn't depend on people coming out of the workplace—workforce, sorry, I should say. When are you going to start that, because it's very important for me to understand what your targets will be in the next five years?

Felly, mae'r cynllun Cymraeg Gwaith ar waith ers mis Ebrill 2017, felly, rydym ni dal ym mlwyddyn gyntaf y cynllun ar hyn o bryd. Rydym ni'n aros ar hyn o bryd i gael clywed a fydd parhad i'r cynllun flwyddyn nesaf. Mae'r cynllun wedi bod yn hynod lwyddiannus. Rydym ni wedi cyrraedd y targedau ac wedi cynyddu o'r targedau gwreiddiol. Mae'r sylw wedi bod yn eang iawn; rydym wedi ymgysylltu efo dros 700 o gyflogwyr. Felly, yn sicr, wrth symud ymlaen, mae yna rai sectorau penodol sydd o fwy o flaenoriaeth. Mae iechyd a gofal yn sicr yn un, a byddwn i'n dweud bod ymgysylltu ymhellach efo'r sector breifat yn arall, yn sicr.

The Work Welsh scheme has been in place since April 2017, so we're in the first year of that scheme at the moment. We're still waiting to hear whether that scheme is to continue for next year. It's been very successful. We have reached our targets and have made progress from the original targets. The coverage has been very broad; we've been in touch with over 700 employers. So, certainly, there are certain sectors that are more of a priority. Health and care is certainly one, and we will be engaging further with the private sector; that is certainly a priority, too.

Diolch am hynny. O safbwynt daearyddiaeth, a oes yna fylchau yn eich darpariaeth? Rydw i'n meddwl yn arbennig am ardaloedd difreintiedig, beth yw'ch gwaith ar—

Thank you for that. In relation to geography, then, are there gaps in your provision? I'm thinking specifically about more underprivileged areas.

O ran Cymraeg Gwaith neu o ran y brif ffrwd?

In terms of Work Welsh or the main streams of our activity?

Y gwaith—ie, y gwaith, achos rydych chi wedi ymateb i gwestiwn Jenny.

Well, more the Work Welsh programme, because you have answered Jenny's question.

Mae Cymraeg Gwaith yn genedlaethol. Felly, mae'r sylw gan y cyflogwyr sydd wedi ymgysylltu efo'r cynllun ar draws Cymru gyfan. Mae tua 70 y cant o'r cyflogwyr o fewn y sector gyhoeddus ar hyn o bryd. Nhw wnaethom ni eu targedu yn benodol. Ond mae'r amrywiaeth o gyflogwyr, y 700 o gyflogwyr sydd wedi ymgysylltu, yn eang tu hwnt—o un pen Cymru i'r llall, i ddweud y gwir.

The Work Welsh programme is a national programme. So, the employers who have interacted with the programme are spread across Wales. Some 70 per cent of employers are within the public sector the moment. We targeted them specifically. But, the range of 700 employers is very broad indeed, from one end of Wales to the other.

Ocê. A ŷch chi'n mynd i ganolbwyntio ar lefydd difreintiedig, er enghraifft, neu lefydd lle mae'r Gymraeg yn y gymuned yn barod, ond mae yna risg o'i cholli?

Okay. And are you going to concentrate on underprivileged areas, for example, or places where Welsh is already in the community, but there's a risk of losing it?

I raddau, gyda Chymraeg Gwaith, rydym ni'n dibynnu ar y cyflogwyr i ddweud wrthym ni pwy maen nhw eisiau i ddysgu. Felly, petasem ni'n penderfynu ein bod ni eisiau—hynny yw, rydym ni'n dibynnu ar gyflogwyr, ac mae e'n rhan hanfodol o'r cynllun ein bod ni'n ymateb yn hyblyg, fel ŷch chi newydd ddweud, i ofynion cyflogwyr. Felly, mae'r symudiad i gynnig cyrsiau ar-lein, er enghraifft, yn gam tuag at wneud hynny.

Fodd bynnag, mae angen i gyflogwyr sylweddoli hefyd nad oes modd dysgu Cymraeg heb roi amser iddo fe. Felly, mae'n rhaid rhoi ymdrech i ddysgu Cymraeg, a byddem ni'n gobeithio bod cyflogwyr yn gallu rhoi peth amser i'w gweithwyr ac anogaeth i'w gweithwyr, beth bynnag yw eu sefyllfa nhw, achos rydym ni'n gwybod hefyd fod pobl yn gallu dysgu Cymraeg. Dyna neges bwysig arall: mae pobl yn gallu dysgu Cymraeg ac, yn fuan, yn gallu dysgu digon o Gymraeg efallai i gyfarch neu ymgymryd â thasgau syml yn y gweithle a newid ethos y gweithle.

Felly, nid ydym ni wedi bod yn targedu yn ddaearyddol. Ar gychwyn y cynllun, yn sicr, dyhead y Llywodraeth oedd ein bod ni'n targedu'r gweithleoedd hynny sydd yn dod o dan y safonau iaith, am resymau amlwg. Fodd bynnag, o'r cychwyn rydym ni wedi bod yn awyddus bod y cynllun yma ar gael i gyflogwyr o bob maint ym mhob man yng Nghymru. Mae'r gwaith ymgysylltu yr ydym ni wedi'i wneud yn dechrau dwyn ffrwyth. Mae gyda ni berthynas erbyn hyn gyda'r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach, sy'n gefnogol iawn o'r cynllun. Felly, rydym ni'n gobeithio gweithio gyda nhw i roi gwybodaeth i'r rheini sy'n aelodau gyda nhw, er enghraifft, sut gallan nhw fanteisio ar y cynllun. Efallai y gallai nifer o fusnesau bach ddod at ei gilydd i ni greu rhywbeth hyblyg iddyn nhw, achos mae'r cynllun wedi'i saernïo mewn ffordd sy'n golygu ein bod ni'n wir yn gallu ymateb i anghenion cyflogwyr. Os yw'r cyflogwr yn dweud eu bod nhw eisiau gwers dwy awr am 7 i 9 ar fore dydd Sadwrn, a 7 i 9 ar nos Wener, gallwn ni ddarparu hynny. Mae'r cynllun wir yn un hyblyg.

Felly, mae'n ddyddiau cynnar i'r cynllun, ond hyd yn hyn rydym ni wedi curo'r targedau i gyd. Felly, fel dywedodd Dona, rydym ni'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr i glywed nawr os allwn ni barhau gyda'r cynllun ar ôl mis Mawrth.

To a certain extent, with Work Welsh, we rely on employers to tell us who they want to learn Welsh. So, if we were to decide—that is, we rely on employers and it's a crucial part of the programme that we respond flexibly, as you've just said, to the requirements of employers. So, the move to offering online courses is a step in that direction.

However, employers also need to realise that it's not possible to learn Welsh without giving employees time to do so. So, you have to make an effort to learn the Welsh language, and I would hope that employers would be able to give some time and encouragement to their workforce, whatever their situation, because we also know that people can learn Welsh. That's another important message: people are able to learn Welsh and, soon, they'll be able to learn enough Welsh to greet people or undertake simple tasks in the workplace and to change the ethos of that workplace, perhaps.

So, we haven't been geographically targeting the programme. At the outset, certainly, the Government's aspiration was that we should target those workplaces that are captured under language standards, for obvious reasons. However, from the outset we've also been eager that this programme should be available for employers of all sizes and scales in all parts of Wales. The engagement work that we have done is starting to bear fruit. We do now have a relationship with the Federation of Small Businesses, which is very supportive of the programme. Therefore, we intend to work with them to provide information to their members, for example, in terms of how they can benefit from the programme. Perhaps a number of small businesses could come together for us to create a flexible package for them, because the programme is tailored in a way that means that we can truly respond to the requirements of employers. If an employer says that they want a two-hour lesson from 7 to 9 on a Saturday morning, and 7 to 9 on a Friday evening, we can provide that. It is truly that flexible.

So, it's early days for the programme, but so far we have been attaining and exceeding our targets. As Dona said, we're looking forward now to seeing if that scheme can go on post March.

09:55

Pwynt fy nghwestiwn i, beth roeddwn i'n cyfeirio ato, yw hyn: mae'n hawdd mynd i gyrff sydd o dan safonau, neu sydd â chynlluniau, er enghraifft, ond y rhai nad oes ganddynt yr anghenion yna, efallai nad ydyn nhw'n edrych ar y Gymraeg fel cyfle, cawn ni ddweud. Felly, beth yw cynnwys eich neges farchnata, a sut ydych chi'n gwneud hynny mewn gwahanol ffyrdd, siŵr o fod? Rydw i wedi gweld y stwff ar Facebook, ac yn y blaen.

But what I'm trying to get at here is: it's easy to go to bodies that are subject to standards or those that have schemes, for example, but for those that are not in that position, they don't look at the Welsh language, perhaps, in the same way. They don't see it as an opportunity, shall we say. So, what are you saying when you're going out with your marketing message? What are you telling these people? I'm sure you're doing it in different ways. I've seen some things on Facebook, for example.

Wel, y neges yw, os yw'ch busnes chi eisiau rhoi gwasanaeth da i bobl yng Nghymru, gwasanaeth dwyieithog yw'r gwasanaeth gorau y gallwch chi ei gael. Mae yna fuddion i'r busnes o gynnig gwasanaeth Cymraeg. Mae yna beth dystiolaeth ar hyn, onid oes? Ein neges ni yw bod—. Hynny yw, rydym ni mor frwd dros beth mae dysgu Cymraeg yn gallu rhoi i chi fel unigolyn, felly, mae pob math o resymau, onid oes? Mae datblygiad personol, buddsoddi yn eich gweithlu; mae hyfforddiant o unrhyw fath i'ch gweithlu yn rhywbeth i'w groesawu, ac wrth gwrs mae'r hyfforddiant yr ydym ni'n gallu ei gynnig, gyda chefnogaeth Llywodraeth Cymru, yn hyfforddiant wedi'i ariannu yn llawn. Felly, er bod y cyflogwr yn aml yn rhoi'r amser, mae'r hyfforddiant wedi'i ariannu yn llawn. Felly, rydym ni'n gobeithio bod busnesau yn gallu gweld y budd o weithio mewn partneriaeth gyda ni a'n bod ni'n gallu cynnig rhywbeth i'n gilydd. Y canlyniad iddyn nhw, gobeithio, fydd gweithle hapus, cynhyrchiol sy'n gallu cynnig rhywbeth ychwanegol i'w gwasanaeth arferol nhw.

Well, the message is that, if your business wants to provide a good service for the people of Wales, then a bilingual service is the best possible service. There are benefits for the business in providing bilingual services, and there is evidence of that, I think. Our message is—. That is, we are so enthusiastic about what learning Welsh can give you as an individual; there are all sorts of reasons for learning Welsh, aren't there? It's personal development, it's investment in your workforce; training of any kind for the workforce is something that should be welcomed, and of course the training that we can provide with the support of the Welsh Government is training that is fully funded. Therefore, although the employer gives up some time, the training is fully funded from elsewhere. So we hope that businesses can see the benefits of working in partnership with us, and that we can offer something to them, and the outcome for them will be a happy, productive workplace that can provide something in addition to the usual services.

Diolch, Suzy. Symud ymlaen at gyllid. Lee Waters.

Thank you, Suzy. Moving on to finance, then, Lee Waters.

A gaf i ofyn yn gyntaf amboutu'r resources digidol? A ydyn nhw ar gael am ddim dros y we?

Can I ask first of all about the digital resources? Are they available free online?

A wyt ti'n defnyddio YouTube hefyd? Sut mae hynny'n gweithio?

Do you use YouTube as well? How does that work?

Ar hyn o bryd, mae popeth yn fyw ar ein platfform digidol ni. Felly, y nod yn y flwyddyn gyntaf ydy cael cymaint o ddysgwyr â phosibl i gyrraedd y platfform. Mae yna sawl peth ar gael yna: newyddion am ein gweithgaredd ni, ac yn y blaen. Felly, wrth i ni ddatblygu ein llyfrgell mynediad agored, yn sicr rydym ni'n mynd i drafod, wrth ddatblygu'r fframwaith digidol, sut rydym ni'n gallu ymestyn hynny ymhellach na ddim ond ar ein platfform digidol ni. Felly, mae YouTube yn sicr yn un ohonyn nhw. Mae'r adnoddau yn rhai bach, maen nhw'n gallu cael eu rhoi ar Facebook, ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae yna bob math o ffyrdd o ddatblygu'r llyfrgell adnoddau ymhellach.

At the moment everything is live on our digital platform. So, the aim in the first year is to get as many learners as possible to access that platform. There is a lot of stuff available there: news about our activities and so on and so forth. So, as we develop our open-access library, we will certainly be discussing, in developing the digital framework, how we can extend that further than our digital platform. So, YouTube is certainly one option. The resources are small and they can be put on Facebook, and so on. So, there are all sorts of ways of developing that resource library further.

Mae'r fframwaith digidol yn mynd i gael ei ddatblygu o fewn y tri mis nesaf. Felly, ar ôl hynny bydd gennym ni gynllun pendant i weithio tuag at y blynyddoedd nesaf. Mae'r platfform digidol yn ei le ar hyn o bryd, felly gwaith mawr blwyddyn diwethaf oedd adeiladu cynllun ar gefn platfform digidol bespoke ar gyfer y safle.

The digital framework will be developed over the next three months. So, after that we will have a specific programme that we will be working to over the next few years. The digital platform is in place at the moment, so the major work over the last year has been to develop that bespoke digital platform for the site.

Beth amboutu evaluation? Beth wyt ti'n gwneud i fesur pa mor effeithiol mae'r arian wedi bod?

What about evaluation? What do you do to measure how effective this funding has been?

Y ganolfan yn ei chyfanrwydd?

The centre as a whole?

Mae hwnnw'n gwestiwn da, diddorol, ac efallai nad oes ateb llawn iawn gyda fi ar hyn o bryd. O ran llywodraethiant y ganolfan ei hun, mae gennym ni fwrdd ymgynghorol sy'n craffu ar ein polisïau ni ac yn ein cynorthwyo ni i ddatblygu ein polisïau ni. Mae gennym ni fwrdd cyfarwyddwyr sy'n amlwg yn edrych ar yr ochr ariannol a'r ochr busnes, ac yn craffu ar ein gwariant ni. Ar ben hynny, mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru pwyllgor craffu wedi'i sefydlu sydd yn edrych ar faterion megis gwerth am arian.

O ran gwerth am arian, y ffordd mae'r ganolfan ei hun yn gwario ei harian, wrth i ni rannu arian i'n darparwyr ni, rydym ni'n defnyddio patrwm ariannu ôl-16 y Llywodraeth. Felly, beth bynnag yw'r patrwm hwnnw, rydym ni'n dilyn yr un math o fformiwlâu. Felly, mae'r sicrwydd o ran gwerth am arian a beth rydym ni'n ei brynu a'n disgwyliadau ni o'n darparwyr yr un fath a cholegau addysg bellach, er enghraifft.

Well, that's a good and interesting question, and perhaps I can't give you a comprehensive answer at the moment. In terms of the governance of the centre itself, we have an advisory board that scrutinises our policy and helps us to develop those policies. We have a board of directors that obviously looks at the financial side and the business side, and scrutinises our expenditure. In addition to that, the Welsh Government has a scrutiny committee established that looks at issues such as value for money.

In terms of value for money and the way that the centre spends its money, as we distribute funds to our providers we use the Government's post-16 funding pattern. So, whatever that pattern is, we follow the same kinds of formulas. So, assurances in terms of value for money, in terms of what we buy and what we expect from our providers, are the same as those for FE.

10:00

Sut mae eich llywodraethwyr chi yn eich herio chi? 

And how do your governors challenge you? 

Cyfarwyddwyr y cwmni neu'r pwyllgor craffu? Mae llawer o haenau gyda ni. Mae pwyllgor craffu y Llywodraeth wedi cyfarfod, rydw i'n meddwl, dair gwaith erbyn hyn, ac fe fyddwn ni'n gwneud cyflwyniadau eto iddyn nhw ym mis Mai. Felly, maen nhw'n cwestiynu o ran cyflawniad, nifer y dysgwyr. Mae yna bethau pwysig i graffu arnyn nhw, pethau, er enghraifft, fel cadw dysgwyr yn y system. Mae'n cyfarwyddwr cwmni ni yn craffu o ran yr ochr ariannol ac ar beth rŷm ni'n ei wario, a sicrhau bod ein holl systemau ni yn gywir, ac, wrth gwrs, mae gyda ni archwilwyr mewnol ac allanol sy'n edrych ar ein gwariant ni.     

Are you talking about directors or the scrutiny committee? There are many layers to this. The Government scrutiny committee has met three times, I believe, and we will be making further presentations to them in May. So, they ask questions in terms of delivery, the number of learners. There are important things to scrutinise, things such as retaining learners within the system. Our company directors scrutinise the financial side of things, and ensure that all of our systems are in place and, of course, we have internal and external auditors that look at our expenditure too. 

Ond, fel enghraifft, eich strategaeth ddigidol chi: sut ydych chi yn mynd i herio'ch hunain ar gyfer hynny? 

But, as an example, the digital strategy: how are you going to challenge yourselves on that? 

Mi ydym ni wedi sefydlu panel o arbenigwyr i weithio efo ni ar y fframwaith digidol, felly byddan nhw yn dod ag arbenigedd a hefyd yn ein helpu ni i graffu ar y gwaith rydym ni'n ei wneud. Efallai nad ydym ni bob tro yn arbenigwyr ar bopeth o fewn y ganolfan, felly mae'n bwysig ein bod ni yn tynnu arbenigwyr allanol i fewn i'n cynorthwyo ni efo'r gwaith. Felly, mae'r cyfarfod cyntaf yn mynd i ddigwydd, gobeithio, ym mis Chwefror, ac wedyn wrth i ni ddatblygu ein fframwaith digidol byddan nhw hefyd yn gallu cynghori a chraffu ar y gwaith hwnnw. 

We have established a panel of experts to work with us on the digital framework, so they will bring expertise and help us to scrutinise the work that we do. Perhaps we're not always experts in everything within the centre, so it's important that we bring external experts in to assist us with that work. So, the first meeting is to take place, hopefully, in February, and then as we develop our digital framework they will also be able to advise and scrutinise that work. 

A gaf i ofyn am y £3 miliwn ychwanegol rydych chi wedi ei gael? Sut ydych chi'n mynd i wario hynny? 

Can I ask about the additional £3 million you've had? How are you going to spend that? 

Ie, wrth gwrs. Er mwyn bod yn fanwl gywir, erbyn hyn, £2.75 miliwn yw e. Mae'r arian yna i gyd wedi mynd at broject newydd o'r enw Cymraeg Gwaith yr ŷm ni newydd grybywll ychydig amdano fe. Dona, a wyt ti eisiau sôn ychydig mwy am y project? 

Of course. Just to ensure that we're entirely correct, it's £2.75 million, and it's all gone to a new project called Work Welsh, which we've just mentioned. Dona, do you want to say a little more about the project? 

Felly, mae Cymraeg Gwaith yn cynnig sawl haen o hyfforddiant. Felly, mae cyrsiau ar-lein yn un rhan ohono fo. Mae yna gynnig arall, sef cyrsiau preswyl, felly mae gweithwyr yn gallu mynd i ffwrdd am bum niwrnod i gael eu trochi yn llwyr yn y Gymraeg, a gwella eu Cymraeg. Mae yna elfen arall sydd yn cynnig cyrsiau dysgu dwys. Felly, mae'r rheini yn gallu bod yn oriau dros gyfnod estynedig lle mae yna diwtor yn mynd i'r man gwaith, neu mae dysgwyr yn dod allan o'u man gwaith i ddysgu. Ac mae yna hefyd ystod o wasanaeth, gwybodaeth a chymorth sy'n cael eu rhoi i gyflogwyr. Felly, trwy'r bedair elfen yna, mae cyflogwyr yn gallu dewis a dethol beth sydd yn gyfleus. 

Cymraeg Gwaith/Work Welsh offers a number of layers of training. Online is part of that. There are also residential courses where staff can go away for immersion over five days in a residential centre. There's another element offering intensive courses, and they can be a number of hours over an extended period where a tutor goes to the workplace, or the learner comes out of the workplace to learn. And then there is a range of services, advice and information available to employers. So, through those four elements, employers can pick and choose what is best for them. 

Jest i ychwanegu at hynny, mae yna bethau strategol bwysig yn y cynllun yna hefyd, sef partneriaeth gyda'r sector blynyddoedd cynnar. Felly, rŷm ni wedi buddsoddi mewn project trwy Cymraeg Gwaith i edrych ar asesu sgiliau staff blynyddoedd cynnar yng Nghymru, a datblygu cyrsiau penodol iddyn nhw. A hefyd, rŷm ni wedi gweithio gyda'r sectorau addysg bellach ac uwch i ddatblygu cynlluniau sy'n rhoi cymorth dwys i'w staff nhw i ddysgu'r Gymraeg. Felly, trwy'r cynllun Cymraeg Gwaith, rŷm ni hefyd wedi gallu taro amcanion strategol Cymraeg 2050, i ddod nôl at y cwestiwn gwreiddiol, mewn gwirionedd. Felly, mae wedi gallu cynorthwyo ni a'r Llywodraeth i fwrw amcanion strategol tu hwnt i jest dysgu unrhyw un sydd eisiau dysgu. 

Just to add to that, there are other strategic elements that are important in that scheme, for example, a partnership with the early years sector. So, we have invested in a project through Work Welsh looking at assessing the staff of the early years sector in Wales, and developing courses for them. And we've also worked with the further and higher education sectors to develop schemes that give intensive support to their staff to learn Welsh. So, through the Work Welsh programme, we've also been able to hit specific objectives in relation to Cymraeg 2050, which brings us back to the original question. So, it has been able to assist us and the Government to hit those strategic objectives beyond just teaching anyone who wants to learn. 

Mae gan Suzy Davies gwestiwn am yr arian. 

Suzy Davies has a question on funding. 

Ie, jest un ychwanegol ar y pwynt arian yna. Mae'r Llywodraeth wedi rhoi £400 miliwn ychwanegol tuag at Cymraeg Mewn Busnes. Mae hwnnw'n arian i 10 swyddog i weithio gyda busnesau bach. A ydy hwn wedi dod drwyddo chi?  

On that funding point, the Government has provided an additional £400 million for Welsh in Business. I think that funds 10 officials to work with small businesses. Has that come through you? 

O, mae e ar wahân. Sut ydych chi'n gweithio gyda'ch gilydd? 

It's separate, is it? How are you working together? 

Pwynt da iawn. Ie, £400,000, rydw i'n credu, maen nhw wedi ei roi, ie? 

That's a very good point. It's £400,000, I think, that they've given, yes? 

Ie, £400,000. Sori, beth a ddywedais i? 

Yes, £400,000. Sorry, what did I say? 

Pedwar can milwn, ond dim ots. [Chwerthin.] Rŷch chi'n hollol gywir; maen nhw wedi penodi 10 swyddog, rydw i'n credu. Rydw i wedi bod i siarad â'r swyddogion ac wedi gwneud cyflwyniad ar ein gwaith ni, ac mae rheolwr Cymraeg Gwaith a rheolwr y project yna mewn cysylltiad â'i gilydd nawr. Felly, rŷm ni wedi arfogi'r swyddogion yna gyda gwybodaeth am ein project ni achos rŷch chi'n hollol gywir—gyda lwc, maen nhw'n perswadio busnesau i ddefnyddio mwy o'r Gymraeg, ac rydym ni yn gallu rhoi'r hyfforddiant iddyn nhw. Felly, mae'r cysylltiadau yn eu lle. Newydd ddechrau mae'r project yna, ond dros amser byddem ni'n gobeithio bod y cydweithio yna yn parhau, ond mae yna ddeialog.  

I think you said £400 million, but that's all right. [Laughter.]  You're absolutely right, of course; they have appointed 10 officials, I think. I have been to speak to those officials, and I've given a presentation on our work, and the manager of Work Welsh and that project are in touch now. So, we have given them the information they need about our project, because you're absolutely right—with any luck, they will be persuading businesses to use the Welsh language further, and we can give them that training. So, those links are there and the relationship is there. The project has only just begun, and over time I hope that that collaboration will continue, but there's certainly a dialogue happening there. 

Grêt, achos mae yna fwy ar gyfer arloesi hefyd, ac mae hwn efallai yn berthnasol i'r scheme digidol.   

That's great, because there's more for innovation as well, and it's perhaps relevant to the digital scheme. 

Beth sydd yn wir i ddweud, wrth gwrs, yw bod y rhan fwyaf o bethau rŷm ni wedi sôn amdanyn nhw heddiw yn bethau newydd sbon sydd byth wedi digwydd o'r blaen. Felly, rŷm ni mewn sefyllfa freintiedig, ond rŷm ni yn cymryd ein cyfrifoldebau o ddifrif, ond rŷm ni wir yn gyffrous am y pethau newydd rŷm ni wedi gallu eu cynnig. Mae Cymraeg yn y gweithle, yn amlwg, yn broject sylweddol i ni. Rŷm ni yn teimlo ein bod ni wedi cael hwyl arni, ac yn cyrraedd cynulleidfaoedd nad ydym ni wedi wneud o'r blaen. Ond rŷm ni hefyd wedi gallu budsoddi yn ddiweddar iawn, er enghraifft, mewn projectau arloesol newydd gyda'r byd busnes, ond hefyd, er enghraifft, rŷm ni newydd ddechrau project arbennig i geiswyr lloches yng Nghaerdydd, er enghraifft, a phroject bychan yng Nghasnewydd. Felly, rŷm ni'n trio bod mor arloesol a blaengar ag rŷm ni'n gallu bod gyda'r adnoddau sydd gyda ni, ond yn parhau, wrth gwrs, i barhau'r gwaith gwych sy'n digwydd ar draws Cymru, i roi'r cyfle i unrhyw un sydd eisiau gwneud i ddysgu'r Gymraeg, a dyna rŷm ni eisiau ei wneud.

What's true to say, of course, is that most of the things we've talked about are very new and have never happened before. So, we are in a very privileged position, but we also take our responsibilities very seriously, but we are very excited about these new things we've been able to offer. Work Welsh, of course, is a big project for us, and we feel we're doing well there and we are reaching audiences we haven't reached before. But we've also been able to invest quite recently in new innovative projects with the world of business, but also, for example, we're looking at a new project for asylum seekers in Cardiff, and also a small one in Newport. So, we're trying to be as innovative as we can with the resources that we have, and, of course, are continuing the wonderful work that's happening across Wales to give everyone an opportunity to learn Welsh if they wish to do so, and that's what we want to do.

10:05

Ocê, diolch yn fawr. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Ie, achos dyna oedd yr argymhelliad gan bwyllgor arall y mae Siân Gwenllian a minnau'n eistedd arno, sef bod ceiswyr lloches wedi dweud wrthym ni yn sicr eu bod nhw eisiau nid yn unig dysgu Saesneg, ond dysgu'r Gymraeg, achos mae ganddyn nhw efallai agwedd gwahanol weithiau—hyd yn oed i bobl sydd y tarddu o Gymru. Felly, bydd yn dda i'w weld e, os ŷch chi'n gallu rhoi diweddariad i ni ar hynny.

Yes, because that was a recommendation made by another committee that Sian Gwenllian and I are members of, namely that asylum seekers had told us that they want to not only learn English, but also learn Welsh, because they perhaps have a different attitude to even people who are originally from Wales. So, it would be good if you could give us an update on that.

A dweud y gwir, nawr y mae'r projectau hynny'n dechrau. Mae dau broject penodol—projectau gwahanol iawn—un yng Nghasnewydd ac un yng Nghaerdydd. Felly, wrth gwrs, pan fydd y project wedi digwydd, byddwn ni'n sicr yn hapus iawn i weld sut mae wedi gweithio a beth y gallwn ni ei ddweud wrthych chi.

To be honest, it's just now that those projects are starting. There are two specific projects and they're very different projects—one in Newport and one in Cardiff. Of course, once those projects have happened, then we'll be very happy to look at how they've worked and let you know about that.

A chais i chi ddod i Abertawe hefyd.

We'd also like you to come to Swansea as well.

Ie. Rŷm ni'n gwneud lot o bethau da yn Abertawe.

Yes. We do a lot of good things in Swansea.

Mae gan Siân Gwenllian gwestiwn.

Siân Gwenllian has a question.

Y cwestiwn pwysig, mae'n debyg, ydy: pa mor llwyddiannus ydy'r gwaith? Hynny yw, sut ydych chi'n mesur llwyddiant? Mae'n ddigon hawdd mesur y niferoedd o bobl sy'n cychwyn cyrsiau fel oedolion, ond nid ydy hynna'n dangos dim byd i ni mewn gwirionedd. Medrwch chi ddechrau cwrs ac, mewn wythnos, rhoi'r gorau iddi. Y pegwn arall ydy'r oedolion hynny sydd yn llwyddo i ddysgu Cymraeg yn ddigon hyderus i'w ddefnyddio fo bob dydd, fel y mae siaradwyr iaith gyntaf yn freintiedig o fedru ei wneud. Yn anffodus, yng Nghymru, prin ydy'r nifer yna mewn gwirionedd, oherwydd bod ein cymunedau ni yn gymunedau dwyieithog. Mae'n wahanol i ddysgu iaith dramor, lle dim ond y brif iaith sydd yna ac nid oes gennych chi ddewis—os ydych chi'n mynd i gymuned yn Ffrainc, nid oes gennych chi ddewis heblaw cael eich trochi yn iaith y gymuned, oherwydd dyna ydy'r iaith. Ond, yng Nghymru, efallai rydym ni, fel Cymry Cymraeg, yn barod iawn i droi i'r Saesneg. Felly, liciwn i wybod sut ydych chi—pa fesuriadau y bydd gennych chi mewn. Mae'n ddyddiau cynnar, ond sut y byddwch chi'n mesur llwyddiant?

The important question, I suppose, is: how successful is your work? How do you measure success? It's very easy to count the numbers of people who start courses as adults, but that doesn't tell us anything, if truth be told. You can start a course and give it up in a week. The other pole is those adults who do succeed in learning Welsh and have sufficient confidence to use it on a daily basis, as first-language Welsh speakers are privileged to be able to do. Unfortunately, in Wales, the numbers there are small because our communities are bilingual communities. It is different to learning a foreign language, where only that main language is spoken in a country and you don't have a choice—if you go to a community in France, then you have no choice but to become immersed in the language of the community, because that's the language of daily conversation. But we, in Wales, perhaps as first-language Welsh speakers, are very happy to turn to English too often. So, I'd like to know what measures you have in place. I know it's early days, but how will you assess and measure success?

Maen nhw'n gwestiynau hollol deg a phwysig iawn a ni allaf ddweud yn onest fod gyda fi i'r ateb perffaith i'r cwestiwn. Beth buaswn i'n hoffi ei ddweud yw ein bod ni, am y tro cyntaf erioed, yn mynd i allu dracio dysgwyr—faint o bobl sy'n dysgu, am ba mor hir maen nhw'n dysgu—ac yn gallu mynd ar ôl pobl sydd wedi stopio dysgu. Nid yw hynny wedi gallu digwydd yn systematig o'r blaen, oherwydd safon y data, ond gyda'r system data newydd sydd gyda ni, cyn bo hir byddwn ni'n gallu dweud wrthych chi ym mha dai yng Nghymru y mae pobl yn dysgu Cymraeg. Felly, dyna'r pwynt cyntaf: byddwn ni'n gwybod ble mae'r dysgwyr, faint maen nhw wedi bod yn dysgu, a ydyn nhw wedi bod yn dysgu am 10 mlynedd ac yn mynd yn ôl i'r un dosbarth, neu a ydyn nhw'n gwneud cynnydd trwy'r lefelau, a sut y gallwn ni newid hynny.

O ran eich cwestiwn chi am faint o'r dysgwyr yma sydd yn siarad Cymraeg yn gyson, mae'n gwestiwn anodd iawn i'w ateb. Ond mae gyda ni broject peilot wnaethom ni ei lansio ddoe, er enghraifft, o'r enw Siarad, lle rŷm ni, mewn pedair ardal yng Nghymru, yn treialu project lle rŷm ni'n gofyn i siaradwyr a dysgwyr gwrdd â'i gilydd am 10 awr dros gyfnod o amser. Mae hynny'n cael ei hwyluso gan ein darparwr lleol ni, ac rŷm ni'n gweld y math yna o broject, sydd wedi ei seilio ar batrwm project sydd yn llwyddiannus iawn yng Nghatalonia, sef—ni wnaf drio dweud y gair yng Nghatalaneg nac yn Sbaeneg, ond mae yna fodel lle rŷch chi'n gallu, mewn ffordd strwythuredig yn y lle cyntaf, dod â siaradwyr Cymraeg a dysgwyr at ei gilydd. Y syniad yw eu bod nhw'n cwrdd am 10 awr a'u bod nhw'n mynd i'r caffi, mynd i'r theatr—ac eto, rŷm ni wedi gallu gwneud partneriaeth gyda'r Theatr Genedlaethol Cymru, ac fe all bartneriaid cael 10 y cant oddi ar y perfformiad nesaf o Y Tad os ydyn nhw'n mynd gyda'i gilydd—siaradwr Cymraeg a dysgwr gyda'i gilydd—er enghraifft.

Dyna'r math o syniadau creadigol rŷm ni nawr yn gallu trafod ac archwilio, ac rŷm ni'n creu hefyd canllawiau i siaradwyr Cymraeg o ran sut i siarad gyda dysgwr. Mae Helen wedi rhoi llawer o arweiniad i mi dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf o ran sut i ymwneud â dysgwyr a sut i siarad â dysgwyr. Siarad Cymraeg gyda dysgwr yw'r peth cyntaf i'w wneud—peidio â chywiro. Mae'r math yna o ganllawiau yn rhan o'r canllawiau rŷm ni'n eu datblygu wrth ddatblygu’r project Siarad. Felly, mae'n ddyddiau cynnar y ganolfan, ond rŷm ni'n awyddus i dreialu pethau, i gychwyn pethau newydd, ac er bod y project Siarad, ar hyn o bryd, yn broject bychan, rŷm ni'n mynd i edrych ar y peilot, ond nid oes unrhyw reswm yn y byd pam all hwnnw ddim datblygu. Yn sir Benfro, rydw i'n meddwl eu bod nhw wedi rhoi hysbyseb bach yn y papur bro, ac fe gawson nhw 50 o bobl o fewn wythnos yn dymuno cymryd rhan yn y project. Felly, mae awydd gan siaradwyr Cymraeg i gefnogi dysgwyr, ac rŷm ni yn gwybod bod Merched y Wawr, er enghraifft, yn croesawu dysgwyr. Ond beth byddem ni ei eisiau yw bod sefydliadau Cymraeg o bob math yn cefnogi dysgwyr.

Allaf i ddim ateb dy gwestiwn di yn union, Siân; nid ydym ni'n gwybod yn union faint o siaradwyr Cymraeg sy'n siarad Cymraeg bob dydd chwaith, felly bydd yn gyfuniad o wybodaeth, rydw i'n credu, cyfuniad o ffactorau. Byddwn ni yn gallu yn sicr rhoi llawer mwy o wybodaeth am faint o bobl sy'n dysgu, ym mhle ac am ba mor hir, maes o law. Byddwn ni'n gwybod faint o bobl sy'n defnyddio ein safle rhyngweithiol ni, faint o bobl sy'n defnyddio ein adnoddau ni, faint o bobl sy'n cymryd rhan yn ein projectau ni. Felly, drwy gyfuniad o ffactorau, rydw i'n meddwl, y byddwn ni'n gallu rhoi argraff i chi, beth bynnag. 

O ran sut mae'r ganolfan ei hun yn mesur llwyddiant, cwestiwn tebyg i'r un a oedd Lee yn holi yn gynharach, mewn ffordd—eto, cyfuniad o ffactorau. Hynny yw, mae ansawdd y dysgu yn bwysig iawn ac, wrth gwrs, mae pobl yn fwy tebyg o barhau i ddysgu os yw ansawdd y dysgu yn uchel. Felly, yn amlwg, mae Estyn yn cynnal arolygon o'r ddarpariaeth. Rŷm ni'n cydweithio gydag Estyn. Rŷm ni newydd sefydlu fframwaith ansawdd genedlaethol i'n darparwyr ni weithio tuag ati hi. Bydd ar ôl y flwyddyn gyntaf yn cynnwys gwaelodlinau o ran y safonau rŷm ni'n disgwyl i'n darparwyr ni eu cyrraedd. Felly, mae llawer o waith gosod a threfnu a datblygu yn digwydd, ac rydw i'n gobeithio mewn mwy o flynyddoedd y byddem ni'n gallu rhoi ateb mwy aeddfed i'r cwestiwn rŷch chi wedi ei ofyn i ni. 

Those are very fair and very important questions and I can't tell you honestly that I have a perfect answer to that question. But what I would like to say is that, for the first time ever, we are going to be able to track learners—how many people are learning and for how long—and also, we can look at those who have stopped learning. That has not been able to be done in a systematic way previously, because of the quality of the data, but the new data system that we have means that we will be able to tell you very soon in which houses in Wales people are learning Welsh. So, that's the first point: we will know where they are, how long they've been learning, have they've been learning for 10 years and going back to the same class or are they moving through the levels, and what we can do about that.

In relation to how many of those learners are speaking Welsh frequently, that's a very difficult question to answer. However, we do have a pilot project that we launched yesterday, called Siarad, where, in four areas in Wales, we are piloting a project, where we ask Welsh speakers and learners to meet each other for 10 hours over a period of time. That's facilitated by our local provider, and we are looking at that type of project, which is based on the pattern of a project that is very successful in Catalonia—and I won't try and say the word in Catalan or in Spanish, but there's a model where, in a structured manner, you can bring Welsh speakers and learners together. The idea is that they meet for 10 hours, maybe in a café, in a theatre or wherever—and, again, we've formulated a partnership with Theatr Genedlaethol Cymru, where you can get 10 per cent off the next performance of Y Tad, if you take a Welsh learner with you and you're a Welsh speaker.

So, those are the sort of creative ideas we're now looking at, and we're also creating guidelines for Welsh speakers on how to speak to learners. Helen has given me a lot of guidance in that over the last year in terms of how to relate to learners and how to speak to them. Speak Welsh to them, of course, is the first thing you should be doing—not to correct someone. Those are the sorts of guidelines we are developing in the Siarad project. So, they are early days for the centre, but we are very keen to pilot certain things and to start new projects, and although the Siarad project at the moment is quite a small project, we're going to look at the pilot and I don't see any reason why that can't be developed. I think in Pembrokeshire, they've put a little advert in the local paper, and they had 50 responses within a week from people wanting to take part. So, Welsh speakers do want to support learners, and we know that Merched y Wawr, for example, welcome learners. But what we'd like to see is organisations of all types supporting Welsh learners. 

I can't answer your question very specifically, Sian, because we don't know how many Welsh speakers speak Welsh every day either, so I think it'll be looking at some combination of information, I think, some combination of factors . But, certainly, we will be able to give you far more information about how many people learn, for how long and where they are, shortly. We'll know how many people are using our interactive services and our resources, and how many people are taking part in our projects. So, through a combination of factors, I think, we will be able to give you an idea, at least. 

In relation to how the centre measures success, similar to Lee's question earlier—again, it's a combination of factors. Quality of learning, of course, is important, and people are more likely to continue with their learning if the quality of teaching is good. Estyn, of course, are inspecting the provision. We work with them. We've established a national quality framework for our providers to work towards. So, after the first year, that will include baselines in relation to the standards that our providers are expected to reach. So, there's a lot of work happening at the moment in relation to development, and I hope in a few more years we'll be able to give you a more mature answer to that question.   

10:10

I just want to go back to how we learn, because the UK has a terrible reputation for the learning and teaching of languages. We always assume that everybody will speak English wherever we go. And, our European partners, they speak four or five languages no problem. So, in what way does your curriculum meet the European framework? You know, how is that different to what we've been doing before? 

Reit. Rydw i'n mynd i drosglwyddo i Helen. 

Right. I will transfer this to Helen. 

Rydw i'n credu taw un o'r heriau mwyaf sydd gyda ni yw nad yw pobl wedi arfer dysgu ieithoedd, bod dysgu iaith yng Nghymru ac ym Mhrydain yn cael ei weld fe gweithgaredd abnormal yn hytrach na normal, a gwych iawn yw cael rhywun o Ewrop yn cerdded mewn drwy'r drws yn gwybod ei bod hi'n bosibl dod yn rhugl, ac felly mae hynny yn digwydd. Felly, mae honno yn neges bwysig i ni ei rhoi i bobl: mae dysgu Cymraeg yn bwysig. 

Beth rydym ni'n treial ei wneud a beth rydym ni wedi gallu ei wneud fel canolfan, rydw i'n gweld, yw gyrru partneriaethau fel bod pobl yng Nghymru—. Achos fod cwrs cenedlaethol gyda ni, rydym ni'n gallu cael nifer o bethau sy'n ategu'r dysgu drwy'r amser. Er enghraifft, un bartneriaeth bwysig iawn sydd gyda ni, rydw i'n credu, yw'r un gyda Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru, lle maen nhw'n buddsoddi mewn 20 o lyfrau newydd sbon ar gyfer dysgwyr—pump ar y bedair lefel—sydd yn llyfrau hamdden. Ond beth sy'n mynd i fod yn wych yw, am y tro cyntaf erioed, ar ôl wyth uned—uned mewn cwrs, so efallai wyth wythnos—bydd pobl yn gallu darllen llyfr. 

Jest ar nodyn arall, rydw i hefyd yn credu bod hynny yn ofnadwy o bwysig, ein bod ni'n cefnogi wedyn y diwydiant llyfrau yng Nghymru, ein bod ni gyd yn cefnogi'n gilydd. Felly, fe fydd yna strwythurau. Bydd pobl yn gallu ategu at eu dysgu drwy'r amser. Hefyd oherwydd y ffaith fod cwrs cenedlaethol gyda ni, rydw i'n credu, mae'n ein galluogi ni i ganolbwyntio ar hyfforddiant sy'n dod â'r cyrsiau yn fyw—sut i ryddhau pobl a chanolbwyntio ar y llafar, ac ysbrydoli pobl i roi cynnig ar eu Cymraeg. Felly, rydym ni'n gyffrous iawn ynglŷn â hyn, bod cwrs cenedlaethol. Mae tiwtoriaid gwych wedi bod erioed—nid ydym ni yn honni bod y tiwtoriaid yn mynd i fod yn well—ond beth rŷm ni'n gallu ei wneud yn strategol yw dod â llawer iawn o strands gwahanol at ei gilydd. 

Mae cyflwynwyr Radio Cymru yn recordio pytiau ar gyfer ein cyrsiau i ddechreuwyr—agor y drws iddyn nhw.  

I think that one of the greatest challenges facing us is that people haven't been used to learning languages. Learning a language in Wales and in the UK is seen as an abnormal activity, rather than it being the norm, and it's excellent to have someone from Europe walking through the door and knowing that it's possible to become fluent and so that can happen. So, that's an important message that we convey to people, that learning Welsh is important. 

What we're trying to do and what we've been able to do as a centre, in my view, is to drive partnerships so that people in Wales—. Because we do have a national course available, we can bring a number of things together that enhances the learning all the time. So, one important partnership we have at the moment is one with the Welsh Books Council, where they're investing in 20 brand new books for learners—five on the four levels—which are leisure reads. But what's going to be excellent is that, for the first time ever, after eight units—so, that's just eight weeks—people will be able to read a book in Welsh. 

Just on another note, I think that's very important in and of itself, that we support the books industry in Wales, that we're all supporting each other, essentially. So, there will be structures in place. People will be able to enhance their learning all the time. Also, because of the fact that we have a national course, I think that enables us to focus on training that brings these courses to life—how do you release people and focus on the spoken word and inspire people to actually give it a try. So, we're very excited about this, that we have a national course. We've always had excellent tutors—we're not going to claim that the tutors are going to be vastly improved—but what we can do strategically is bring numerous strands together. 

Radio Cymru presenters are recording clips for our courses for beginners, and that opens the door to them. 

I'm glad to hear that, because that was my other question, which is your relationship with our national media. There was an interesting poem on BBC 2 last night, which was promoting—. It was a poem in Welsh, but was subtitled, and it was promoting Radio Cymru. So, I just wondered whether you've got any involvement in that, or what your expectations are for—. Because orally is how people learn.

10:15

Wrth gwrs, ie. Mae cytundeb ffurfiol gyda ni gyda Radio Cymru, felly rydym ni'n datblygu'r berthynas gyda nhw. Gyda S4C—rŷm ni'n hyderu'n fawr y bydd S4C yn parhau i ddarparu rhaglenni yn arbennig ar gyfer dysgwyr, ond beth arall rŷm ni'n gwneud gyda S4C yw maen nhw'n anfon deunydd atom ni, mae’n eistedd eisoes ar ein safle rhyngweithiol, ac mae wedi cael ei ymgorffori yn y gwerslyfrau. Felly, mae perthynas agos gyda'r cyfryngau.

Yes, of course. We have a formal agreement with Radio Cymru, so we are developing that relationship with them. With S4C, we hope that they will continue to provide programmes that are especially for learners, but the other thing we're doing with S4C is that they send us material, it's already on our interactive website, and it is incorporated into the books we use for learning. So, we do have a very close relationship with the media.

A ydych chi wedi gwneud asesiad amboutu'r effaith y datblygiad mewn artificial intelligence? Achos mae Google yn datblygu peiriant sydd yn mynd i mewn i'ch clust sydd yn gallu cyfieithu'n instantaneous. Felly, beth fydd effaith y datblygiad hyn?

Have you carried out any assessment of the impact of the development of artificial intelligence? Because Google is developing an implant for the ear that can provide instantaneous translation. So, what will the impact of these kinds of developments be?

Rwy'n meddwl mai dyma'r union fath o beth ydy'r bwriad efo ymestyn ein gwaith digidol ni. Nid yw'r maes wedi bod yn hynod arloesol, buaswn i'n dweud, yn y maes digidol yn sicr, felly wrth inni fod yn datblygu rŵan mae'r math yna o bethau yn sicr yn bethau sydd angen inni edrych i mewn iddyn nhw. Yn amlwg, mae rhywbeth fel AI yn cymryd lot o arian a buddsoddiad, felly byddwn ni hefyd yn chwilio am bartneriaid, efallai, i gydweithio â ni yn y meysydd yna i weld beth sydd yn bosibl. Rwy'n meddwl mai'r prif beth ydy gweld beth sydd yn bosib pan mae'n dod i ddysgu Cymraeg.

I think this is exactly the type of thing that is our intention in expanding our digital work. This area hasn't been very innovative, I would say, certainly in the digital field, so in developing this now these type of things are certainly very important and they're something we need to look at. Certainly, something like AI is expensive and needs a lot of investment, so we'd be looking for partners to work with us in those areas to see what is possible. I think the main thing is to see what's possible when it comes to learning Welsh.

Beth ydym ni ddim yn gwybod yw beth yw'r elfennau digidol sy'n gwneud i bobl ddysgu’n gynt, neu a ydyn nhw'n gwneud i bobl ddysgu'n gynt. O'r sgyrsiau rŷm ni wedi'u cael hyd yn hyn, nid oes ateb pendant gan addysgwyr chwaith. Dyna pam rŷm ni'n sefydlu'r fframwaith digidol, sef grŵp o bobl yn y lle cyntaf, a bydd hynny'n arwain at ysgrifennu fframwaith a fydd yn trio dod o hyd i'r arfer orau yn rhyngwladol ac yn y maes dysgu Saesneg fel iaith dramor, er enghraifft, fel ein bod ni'n casglu'r wybodaeth orau sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd.

Mae yna syniadau fel dysgu trwy virtual reality, neu eich bod chi mewn dosbarth a'ch bod chi'n rhoi set ar eich pen. Mae yna lawer o syniadau. Beth rydw i'n awyddus ein bod ni'n gwneud yw ein bod ni'n penderfynu dros y misoedd nesaf, 'Wel, dyma'r arian sydd gyda ni, dyma beth ni'n gallu gwneud yn realistig, ond dyma ble ni eisiau cyrraedd', a'n bod ni'n mapio hynny efallai am y tair blynedd nesaf—cyn ein bod ni'n dechrau gwneud unrhyw fath o fuddsoddiad—er mwyn cael consensws. Ac mae'n rhaid i ni blethu hyn gyda'n gwersi ni. A ydyn ni'n rhoi darnau ar-lein a darnau yn y dosbarth fel bod pobl yn gallu dysgu’n gynt? Rŷm ni'n gwybod bod pobl sy'n dysgu'n gynt yn aros neu'n llwyddo i gyrraedd ymhellach yn aml iawn, ond ar hyn o bryd rŷm ni yn y broses o ddod o hyd i'r arfer orau. Felly, dyna pam rŷm ni eisiau tynnu arbenigwyr i mewn atom ni i'n cynorthwyo ni.

What we don't know is what the digital elements are that actually encourage people to learn more quickly, or whether it achieves that. From the conversations we've had so far, there are no definite answers from those teaching already. That's why we've established the digital framework, a group of people in the first place, and that will draw up a framework to try to identify good practice internationally and in the area of learning English as a foreign language, for example, so that we gather the best information available.

There are ideas such as learning through virtual reality, or that you are in a classroom and put on a headset. There are many ideas. What I'm eager for us to do is that we decide, over the next few months, 'Well, this is the funding we have available, this is what we're realistically able to achieve, but this is where we want to reach', and that we map that out for the next three years—before we start to make any sort of investment—so that we get that consensus. And we have to dovetail this with our lessons. Are we providing online materials and materials in classrooms so that people can learn more quickly? We know that those who do learn more quickly do get further very often, but at the moment we're in the process of identifying best practice. So, that's why we want to draw in expertise to assist us.

Ond a oes perygl—os bydd pobl yn gallu deall Cymraeg drwy rywbeth gan Google, beth fydd yr angen i ddysgu Cymraeg?

But is there a danger—if people are able to understand Welsh through something by Google, why would they need to learn Welsh?

Mae honno'n ddadl am bob iaith yn y byd, o bosib—

That's pertinent to all languages in the world, I suppose—

—ond mae'n gwestiwn diddorol iawn. A wyt ti eisiau siarad o safbwynt addysgol, Helen?

—but it's an interesting question. Do you want to talk from an educational point of view, Helen?

Rydw i'n credu hefyd beth sydd yn bwysig iawn, rhywbeth rydym ni'n ceisio ei annog, yw bod yna ymdeimlad o berthyn hefyd. Rydym ni eisiau i ddysgwyr deimlo eu bod nhw'n perthyn, eu bod nhw'n gallu defnyddio eu Cymraeg, a bod yna groeso iddyn nhw. Rwy'n credu, tra bydd ieithoedd gwahanol yn bod, y bydd dal i fod cyfathrebu rhwng pobl mewn sefyllfaoedd fel hyn, ac yn anffurfiol, ac y bydd yn parhau i fod yn bwysig. Felly, dylid defnyddio'r dechnoleg i ategu'r dysgu, ond dylid cadw'r pwyslais yna ar ddefnydd iaith. Rŷm ni eisiau i bobl nid jest i ddeall yr iaith ond eu bod nhw'n gallu ei defnyddio hi, sy'n ddau beth hollol wahanol, rwy'n credu.

I think that what's very important, and what we are trying to encourage, is that there should be a feeling of belonging too. We want learners to feel that they belong, that they can use the Welsh language, and that they are welcomed. I think that, whilst different languages exist, there will still be communication between individuals in situations like this, and informally, and that it will continue to be important. So, we should use the technology to enhance the learning, but we should keep the emphasis on language use. We want people not just to understand the language but also use it, which are two different things, I think.

A fydd hynny'n cynnwys meddalwedd ddigidol o ran voice dictation? Achos rwy'n credu os ydych chi'n dysgu'r iaith ar lafar, yn hytrach na'i dysgu'n ysgrifenedig, os ydych wedyn yn trio creu e-bost, er enghraifft, rydych chi'n gallu gweld y geiriau'n dod o'ch blaen chi ac wedyn dysgu drwy'r llais ond wedyn gweld y geiriau ar y sgrin. A ydy hynny'n rywbeth rydych chi'n mynd i fod yn ei wneud, neu drwy weithio gyda Chanolfan Bedwyr neu—?

Would that include digital software in relation to voice dictation as well? Because I think if you're learning Welsh orally, rather than in written form, if you then try to write an e-mail, for example, you can see the words in front of you and then learn through the voice but also you can see the words on the screen. Is that something you think you're going to be doing, or maybe working with Canolfan Bedwyr or—?

Rwy'n meddwl mai'r hyn sydd yn bwysig ydy mabwysiadu partneriaethau. Yn amlwg, nid ydym ni'n arbenigwyr ar bopeth sy'n ymwneud efo digidol, felly mae'n bwysig ein bod ni yn cydweithio ag arbenigwyr eraill yn y maes, yn sicr. Rwy'n meddwl beth sy'n bwysig ydy bod yna ddewis i ddysgwyr. Felly, os ydyn nhw'n dymuno dewis dysgu'n ddigidol ac yn gyfunol, efallai bydd y dewis yna ar gael, ond ni ddylai gymryd i ffwrdd o'r ffaith chwaith mai dysgu mewn dosbarth yw'r arf mwyaf pwerus sydd ar gael i ddysgu Cymraeg.

I think what's important is that we develop partnerships. We're not experts in all areas relating to digital, so it is important that we do work with other experts in the field, there's no doubt about that. I think what's important is that there are options available for learners. So, if they want to learn digitally or in combination with lessons, then that should be available, but it should not take away from the fact that learning in a classroom is the most powerful tool available for learning Welsh.

Ocê. Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn cwestiwn arall ynglŷn â'r hyn roeddech chi'n dweud reit ar y cychwyn o ran y gwaith cymunedol. Rwy'n cael pobl yn fy ardal i yn dod ataf i yn dweud eu bod nhw eisiau—yn amlwg, fel rydych chi'n gwybod—ymarfer yr iaith yn eu bywyd bob dydd, ac efallai bod y cyfleoedd ddim ar gael mewn ardaloedd, efallai, lle nad yw'r Gymraeg yn cael ei defnyddio o ddydd i ddydd. Sut ydych chi'n hwyluso eu gallu nhw i ymarfer yr iaith? Mae'n amlwg bod yna gymunedau newydd, Tŷ'r Gwrhyd yng nghymoedd Abertawe, ond weithiau nid oes unman i fynd. Sut ydych chi'n—?

Okay. I just wanted to ask another question about what you said right at the beginning in relation to community work. People in my area come to me and say that—obviously, as you know—they want to practice the language in their everyday life, and perhaps those opportunities aren't available to them in areas where the Welsh language isn't used on a day-to-day basis. How can you facilitate their ability to practice the language? Clearly, there are new communities centres like Tŷ'r Gwrhyd in the Swansea valley, but sometimes there isn't anywhere for someone to go to practice. How do you—?

10:20

Mae'n her. Rŷm ni wedi sefydlu pwyllgor cefnogi dysgwyr yn genedlaethol sy'n dod â'r mudiadau Cymraeg i gyd at ei gilydd lle rydym ni yn trafod sut y gallwn ni gael dysgwyr i groesi'r bont i ymuno â phethau. Rŷm ni hefyd yn gweithio gyda'r holl ganolfannau iaith, ac yn aml iawn mae sesiynau dysgu Cymraeg yn digwydd yn y canolfannau hynny, ac felly mae hynny'n naturiol. Ond rwyt ti'n hollol iawn, mae yn her lle nad oes cymuned Gymraeg o'ch cwmpas chi, a dyma le mae'r gwaith trwy'r cwrslyfrau newydd ac yn y blaen o gyflwyno pobl i sut y gallan nhw ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg maen nhw'n dysgu os nad yw e'n bosib yn eu gweithle nhw,—er enghraifft, maen nhw'n gallu gwrando ar Radio Cymru, maen nhw'n gallu edrych ar S4C, maen nhw'n gallu dod i wybod am y pethau Cymraeg sydd yn digwydd yn eu cymuned nhw achos rŷm ni yn gwybod bod yna bethau Cymraeg yn digwydd ym mhob cymuned.

Mae yna brosiect arbennig yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd yn sir Fôn i gymhathu dysgwyr a siaradwyr i'r cymdeithasau sy'n bodoli yn sir Fôn yn barod. Felly, nid creu cymdeithasau ar wahân ar gyfer dysgwyr, ond sicrhau bod dysgwyr yn gwybod lle mae'r cymdeithasau Cymraeg a sut y gallan nhw ymuno. Felly, mae yn her, ond rŷm ni'n ymwybodol o'r her, ac mae'r pwyllgor cefnogi dysgwyr rŷm ni'n ei sefydlu o leiaf yn golygu bod deialog rhyngom ni a'r partneriaid eraill pwysig sydd yn trefnu'r gweithgareddau Cymraeg. 

It is a challenge. We have established a national committee to support learners that brings the Welsh language organisations together where we discuss how we can assist learners to make that transition and to join in with activities. We are also working with all the language centres, and, naturally, very often the Welsh teaching sessions happen in those centres. But you're entirely right, it is a challenge where you don't have a Welsh-speaking community surrounding you, and that's where the work through the new course books and so on in terms of introducing to people how they can use the language they are learning if it is not possible in the workplace—for example, they can listen to Radio Cymru, they can watch S4C, they can learn of the Welsh language events happening in their communities because we know that there are events happening in all communities.

There is a particular project happening at the moment on Anglesey to assimilate learners and Welsh speakers into the societies already in existence on Anglesey. So, we're not creating separate structures for learners, but ensuring that learners know where these societies are and how they can get involved and engage with them. It's a challenge, but we're aware of that challenge, and the committee that we're establishing means that there is, at least, a dialogue between ourselves and the other important partners who arrange these Welsh language activities.

A jest cwestiwn arall ar y cyllid: yn amlwg, bydd yna rhyw fath o bris set os ydych chi'n gweithio gydag awdurdod lleol neu gyda busnes, er enghraifft yr FSB. Beth yw'r gost i'r unigolyn sydd ddim yn rhan o unrhyw fath o sefydliad gwahanol?

Just one more question on the finance, then: clearly, there'll be some sort of set price if you're working with local authorities or the Federation of Small Businesses. What's the cost to the individual who isn't part of any type of organisation? 

Cwestiwn diddorol iawn, Bethan. Ar hyn o bryd, mae'r gost yn wahanol ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Mae'n ddyhead gan y ganolfan i ni drio dod a'r ffioedd yn debycach i'w gilydd ymhob rhan o Gymru. Os af i'n ôl cam, mae'r darparwyr mae'r ganolfan yn eu hariannu yn gymysgedd o sefydliadau addysg uwch, prifysgolion a chynghorau sir. Maen nhw â'u polisïau gwahanol eu hunain, ac mae yna amrywiaeth mawr yn y ffioedd.

Mae'r ffi i gyd sy'n cael ei gasglu yn mynd yn ôl i mewn i'r gwasanaeth, felly mae hynny hefyd yn ffactor pwysig. Felly, mae'n gwella'r gwasanaeth sydd ar gael. Ar y llaw arall, ein barn ni ar hyn o bryd yw bod gormod o amrywiaeth yn y ffi yna, felly dros y cyfnod nesaf, rŷm ni'n cynnal trafodaeth gyda'n darparwyr ni am sut y gallwn ni ddod â'r ffi i ystod sydd, yn ein barn ni, yn fwy synhwyrol, a hefyd i gytuno beth yw'r gostyngiadau achos rŷm ni'n awyddus bod neb yn methu dysgu Cymraeg oherwydd y ffi, ac mae yna bolisïau gostyngiadau amrywiol—mae 11 darparwr, mae 11 system wahanol. Felly, rhan o'n sialens ni o sefydlu trefn genedlaethol yw trio cysoni'r pethau yma. 

A very interesting question, Bethan. At the moment, the cost is different in different parts of Wales. It is the centre's aspiration that we do try to make the fee similar in all parts of Wales. Now, to go back a step, the providers the centre supports is a mixture of county councils, universities and colleges, and they have various fees in place.

The fees collected all go back into the service, and that's an important factor, so it improves the service available. On the other hand, our view at the moment is that there is too much variation in terms of that fee. So, over ensuing years we'll be having discussions with our providers as to how we can bring the fee into a range that is, in our view, more sensible, and also to agree on reductions, because we don't want anyone to miss out on learning Welsh because of the fee, and there are concessions available—there are 11 providers and 11 different systems at the moment. So, part of our challenge in establishing a national system is to try to bring consistency to these areas. 

Ocê. Byddwn i'n edrych ymlaen at weld mwy am hynny oherwydd, yn amlwg, byddech chi ddim—fel rydych chi'n dweud, really—eisiau prisio rhywun mas— 

Okay. I look forward to hearing more about that because, clearly, as you've already said you wouldn't want to buy someone out of—

Yn union.

Exactly.

—o'u gallu nhw i ddysgu iaith y wlad. 

—the opportunity to learn Welsh. 

Dyna'r pwynt pwysig. 

That's the important point.

Diolch. A oes cwestiynau eraill gan Aelodau? Os ddim, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod mewn yma heddiw. Mae'n siŵr y byddwn ni'n siarad â chi eto yn y dyfodol i glywed am rywfaint o'r gwaith arloesol rydych chi yn ei wneud fel sefydliad, ond diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod i mewn yma heddiw. 

Thank you. Are there any further questions from Members? If not, thank you very much for coming in today. I'm sure we'll speak to you again in future to hear about some of the innovative work that you're doing as an organisation, but thank you very much for coming in.

Diolch i chi. Pob lwc gyda'r gwaith. 

Thank you. Good luck with the work.

Diolch. Byddwn ni'n cymryd seibiant hyd nes bod y Gweinidog yn dod mewn. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. We're going to take a break until the Minister arrives. Thank you.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:23 a 10:32.

The meeting adjourned between 10:23 and 10:32.

10:30
3. Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes: Craffu Cyffredinol
3. Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language: General Scrutiny

Diolch, a chroeso i eitem 3 ar yr agenda: sesiwn graffu ar Weinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Rydym yn croesawu Eluned Morgan, sef Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, a hefyd Bethan Webb, sef dirprwy gyfarwyddwr y Gymraeg, a hefyd Jeremy Evas—os ydy hynny'n iawn—pennaeth hybu'r iaith Gymraeg. Diolch i chi am ddod atom heddiw.

I gychwyn, mae'n siŵr y byddai gan Aelodau ddiddordeb i glywed am eich datganiad y bore yma am yr ombwdsmon. Mae’n siŵr bydd nifer ohonom yn croesawu’r penderfyniad hwnnw, ond a fyddech chi’n gallu esbonio pam rydych chi wedi rhoi datganiad mas heddiw? Beth yw’ch meddylfryd y tu ôl i wneud y penderfyniad hwnnw? Diolch.

Thank you, and welcome to item 3 on the agenda: Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language—general scrutiny session. We'd like to welcome Eluned Morgan, Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, Bethan Webb, deputy director, Welsh language, and also Jeremy Evas—if I'm right in my pronunciation there—head of Welsh language promotion. Thank you for coming to us today.

Can I begin, then, please? I'm sure Members would be interested in hearing about your statement this morning in relation to the ombudsman. I'm sure many of us would welcome that decision, but could you explain why you've issued this statement today? What is your thinking behind that decision? Thank you. 

Mae hwn yn rhywbeth sydd yn ymwneud â’r Papur Gwyn, wrth gwrs, ac roeddwn yn ceisio sicrhau ein bod ni’n ymateb. Rydym wedi cael ymgynghoriad eithaf trylwyr ar y Papur Gwyn. Un o’r ymatebion a gawsom ni oedd gan yr ombwdsmon, a oedd wedi taflu’r syniad i mewn i’r pot efallai y byddai ef â rhai o’r sgiliau, rhai o’r posibiliadau ynglŷn â gwneud ychydig bach mwy o ran rheoleiddio.

Fe wnaethom ni ystyried yn ofalus beth oedd ganddo fe i’w ddweud. Rwy’n meddwl bod lot y gallwn ni ei ddysgu o’r ombwdsmon o ran effeithlonrwydd. Rwyf yn meddwl, beth bynnag sy’n digwydd yn y dyfodol, mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau bod benchmarking yn digwydd o ran rheoleiddio a sut mae rheoleiddio’n digwydd mewn gwahanol ardaloedd, ac effeithlonrwydd hynny. Ond ar ôl inni ystyried, beth oedd yn glir oedd y byddai hyn yn codi materion cymhleth iawn o ran newid rôl yr ombwdsmon. Felly, er enghraifft, dim ond ychydig bach iawn o hawliau sydd gan yr ombwdsmon o ran y posibilrwydd o ymyrryd mewn cwmnïau preifat—wel, mae hynny'n rhywbeth, efallai, rŷm ni eisiau ri gadw ar yr agenda am y dyfodol. O ran enforcement, mae hwnnw’n rhywbeth arall sydd yn wannach, rwy’n meddwl, os ŷch chi’n cymharu'r math o bŵer sydd gan y comisiynydd o gymharu gyda'r ombwdsmon. So, unwaith roeddem ni wedi edrych arno fe mewn manylder, roeddem ni'n meddwl ei fod e'n rhywbeth lle byddai'n rhaid i ni newid rôl yr ombwdsmon mewn ffordd really cymhleth a newid y gyfraith, ac nad oedd hynny'n rhywbeth—. Ond, mae yna bethau y gallwn ni eu dysgu o'r ombwdsmon, yn sicr.

This is something that relates to the White Paper, of course, and I was endeavouring to ensure that we respond. We've had quite a thorough consultation on the White Paper, and one of the responses we received was from the ombudsman, who had thrown the idea into the ring that perhaps he would have some of the necessary skills in terms of doing a little more in relation to regulation.

We gave careful consideration to his comments. I think there is a great deal we can learn from the ombudsman in terms of effectiveness. I think whatever happens in the future, we do have to ensure that there is benchmarking in terms of regulation and how regulation happens in various areas, and the efficiency of that. But having considered, what became clear was that this would raise some very complex issues in terms of changing the role of the ombudsman. So, for example, there are only very few powers available to the ombudsman in terms of the possibility of intervening in the private sector—well, that's something that we want to keep on the agenda for the future. In terms of enforcement, that is another area that would be weaker, I think, if you were to compare the powers available to the commissioner as opposed to the ombudsman. So, once we'd looked at this in detail, then we did think that it was an area where we would have to substantially change the role of the ombudsman in a complex way and that there wold be a need for a change in the law, and that wasn't something—. But there are certainly things that we can learn from the ombudsman.

10:35

Jest yr ail gwestiwn ar hyn, ac i orffen—rwy'n siŵr bydd gan fwy o Aelodau gwestiynau ar hyn yn hwyrach—rydych chi'n mynd i fod yn cyhoeddi adroddiad a chrynhoi'r ymatebion i'r ymgynghoriad yn y Papur Gwyn yr wythnos nesaf, felly a ydych chi'n mynd i gadw'r pwerau hyn gyda'r comisiynydd? A ydych chi'n dal i fod o'r farn bod angen newid system y comisiynydd i fod yn gomisiwn ac yno fydd y pwerau hyn yn eistedd, neu a fydd hynny'n rhy gynnar i 'pre-empt-io' yr hyn rydych chi'n mynd i'w wneud yr wythnos nesaf?

Just a second question, therefore, on this—and I'm sure that Members will have more questions on this later—you're going to be publishing the report on the White Paper and summarising the responses to the consultation next week, so are you going to keep these powers with the commissioner? Is it still your opinion that we need to change the system and have a commission rather than a commissioner, and that's where the powers will remain, or is it too early in the process yet to tell us what you're going to do?

Rydw i'n meddwl, ddiwedd y mis, byddwn ni'n dod mas ag ymatebion i'r ymgynghoriad. Wedyn, byddwn ni'n gwneud sylwadau mwy manwl ar beth fydd y siâp rŷm ni'n ei weld o ran rheoleiddio yn y dyfodol. Ond, nid ydym ni wedi gwneud penderfyniadau pendant ar hynny eto, felly fuaswn i ddim eisiau mynd i mewn i fanylder ar hynny eto.

I think, at the end of the month, we will be publishing the responses to the consultation. Then, we will be making more detailed comments on the shape of regulation for the future. But, we haven't made any definite decisions on that, as of yet, so I wouldn't want to go into any detail there yet.

Grêt. Jest i symud ymlaen, felly, at Cymraeg 2050, roeddech chi yma o'r blaen— yn anffodus, roeddwn i'n sâl—i gymryd cwestiynau ynglŷn â'r strategaeth o ran cyrraedd y filiwn. Beth yr oeddwn i eisiau ei ofyn oedd, yn eich tystiolaeth, roeddech chi'n dweud efallai nad oedd yn bosib—. Mae gen i hyn mewn dyfyniad:

Great. Just to move on, then, to Cymraeg 2050, previously, you appeared before the committee—unfortunately, I was away ill—and you answered questions about the strategy in relation to reaching a million speakers. What I'd like to ask is, in your evidence, you state that perhaps it's not possible—. I have it in a quote here:

'40 groups is already quite a stretch'.

—o ran creu mwy o fudiadau meithrin. A ydych chi'n credu bod yna broblem gyda'r targedau, os ydych chi'n dweud yn barod efallai fod y targedau interim yna'n mynd i fod yn anodd i'w cyrraedd? A ydy hynny'n wir, felly, ar gyfer targedau eraill o fewn y strategaeth hynny?

—in terms of establishing more Mudiad Meithrin groups. Do you think there's a problem with those targets if you're already saying that those interim targets are going to be difficult to reach? Is that true, therefore, in relation to other targets within the strategy?

Rydw i'n meddwl bod y pethau hyn i gyd yn eithaf heriol, ond nid yw'n golygu ein bod ni'n ffaelu eu gwneud. Rydw i yn hyderus, er ei fod yn eithaf stretch i gyrraedd y targed yna o gael 40 o ganolfannau meithrin newydd, rydym ni'n hyderus y gallwn ni gyrraedd hynny. Felly, mae'r arian wedi'i roi i Mudiad Meithrin, nawr, yn barod, ac rŷm ni'n hyderus y gallan nhw delifro ar beth rŷm ni wedi gofyn iddyn nhw i'w ddelifro.

I think that all of these things are quite a stretch, but it doesn't mean that we can't deliver them. I am confident that, although it is quite a stretch to reach that target of getting an additional 40 canolfannau meithrin, we're confident that we can achieve that. So, the funding has been allocated to Mudiad Meithrin already, and we're confident that they can deliver on what we've asked them to deliver.

Ocê. Y cwestiwn arall oedd gen i oedd ar eich sylwad mai cynnydd bychan fydd i'w weld yn y pedair blynedd gyntaf. Y dystiolaeth y cawsom ni, fel pwyllgor, oedd bod angen 'front-load-io' hyn oll er mwyn i bethau ddigwydd yn gyflym ac yn gynharach fel bod mwy o bobl, wedyn, yn gallu dysgu Cymraeg. A ydych chi'n credu bod eich sylwad, wedyn, mai cynnydd bychan sy'n cael ei weld, yn mynd yn erbyn hynny? Neu, a ydych chi'n gweld ei fod yn dal i fod yn realistig i gyrraedd y targed, er na fyddem ni'n gweld newid sylweddol yn y pedair blynedd cyntaf?

Okay. The other question I have is about your comment saying that you're only looking at a small increase, perhaps over the first four years. In relation to the evidence we've had as a committee, people feel that this needs to be front-loaded in order for things to happen quickly and earlier, so that more people are able to learn Welsh. Do you think that your comment, then, that the gains you would make would only be quite small, is in contrast with that? Or, do you think it is still realistic that we'll reach the target, even though the change will be small within the first four years?

Wel, un o'r problemau gyda'r blynyddoedd cyntaf yw bod lot o blant yn y system yn barod, ac felly mae'n anodd effeithio ar hynny. Felly, y pwynt pwysig yw ein bod ni'n treial annog mwy o bobl i fynd i mewn i'r system addysg Gymraeg, er enghraifft, a dyna pam mae rhoi darpariaeth i'r blynyddoedd cynnar ac i ysgolion meithrin yn hanfodol. Dim ond ar ôl ychydig amser bydd y rheiny'n mynd i mewn i'r system addysg, felly rydw i'n meddwl—.

Hefyd, mae'n rhaid ichi gofio hyfforddi. Mae hyfforddi digon o athrawon yn hanfodol ac nid ydyn nhw'n cael eu hyfforddi dros nos; mae eisiau ychydig o amser arnyn nhw i fynd drwy'r system ac i gael eu hyfforddi. Felly, o ran ble rydw i'n canolbwyntio arno ar hyn o bryd, rydw i'n canolbwyntio ar hyfforddi digon o athrawon fel bod gennym ni ddigon yn y system i gyrraedd y targedau yma, ac mae hynny'n mynd i fod yn galed, ond rŷm ni nawr wedi rhoi mesurau mewn lle, lle rŷm ni'n gobeithio y byddwn ni'n gweld symudiad o ran cael mwy o bobl mewn i hyfforddi drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

Well, one of the problems with these first stages is that there are a number of children in the system already, and so it's difficult to have an impact there. So, I think the important point is that we try and encourage people to go into the Welsh-medium education system, for example, and that's why providing that early years provision and the nursery provision is crucial. It's only after a certain amount of time that those will come into the education system, so I think—.

Also, you have to bear in mind training. Training sufficient numbers of teachers is crucial and that can't be done overnight; it takes time for them to go through the system to be trained. So, in terms of my focus at the moment, I am focusing on training sufficient numbers of teachers so that we have a sufficient number in the system to achieve these targets, and that's going to be difficult, but we have now put measures in place where we hope we will see some development in terms of getting more people to train through the medium of Welsh.

Mae'r cwestiwn olaf sydd gen i ar fesur y cynnydd. Nid oes cyfrifiad tan 2021, ac fe nodoch chi yn eich papur y byddwch chi'n ceisio cynyddu defnydd pob dydd o 10 y cant i 11 y cant erbyn 2021, a hyd at 20 y cant erbyn 2050. A ydy hynny'n rhywbeth rydych chi'n ei ategu yma heddiw?

My final question is in relation to measuring the increase. Of course, there's no census now until 2021, and you noted in your paper that you would be looking to increase daily use from 10 per cent to 11 per cent by 2021 and up to 20 per cent by 2050. Is that something that you would reiterate here today?

Yn y blynyddoedd cynnar yma, rydw i'n meddwl bod y strategaeth yn—. Fel yr oeddwn i'n sôn yn gynharach, mae'r targedau hyn yn rhai really clir, felly mae pob un yn gwybod beth sydd angen ei wneud. Y drafferth yw nad ni sy'n gyfrifol am y cyfrifiad. Felly, allwn ni ddim cael y ffigurau hynny tan ein bod ni'n cael y cyfrfiad hwnnw. Felly, gobeithio y gwnawn ni weld ychydig o symud yn y cyfnod hwnnw. Rydw i yn meddwl, erbyn 2021—sydd ddim yn bell i ffwrd o gwbl—na fyddwn ni'n gweld y symudiad radical y byddwn ni'n gobeithio ei weld yn y blynyddoedd sydd yn dod yn nes ymlaen.

At these early stages, I do think that the strategy—. As I mentioned earlier, these targets are very clear, so everyone knows what needs to be done. The difficulty is that we're not responsible for the census, so we can't get those figures until the census takes place. So, I hope we will see some movement in that period. I do think that, by 2021, which isn't so very far away, we won't see that radical shift that we would hope to see in later years.

10:40

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Symud ymlaen at y Gymraeg mewn addysg a Neil Hamilton.

Thank you very much. We move on now to Welsh in education and Neil Hamilton.

I'd like to pursue the question of the targets that you've got for seven-year-olds in Welsh-medium education, and then to talk perhaps a little bit about the training of teachers. I appreciate that it's always the most difficult at the beginning of a massive project of this kind to make progress. You've now got a target of increasing the number of seven-year-olds in Welsh-medium education by 2021 from 22 per cent to 24 per cent in percentage terms. That's 700 pupils. It doesn't sound very much in itself but I appreciate that getting from where we are to where we want to be is not as easy as it looks, especially when you consider the historical background that, in the four years between 2010 and 2014, in percentage terms, you managed to increase the number of seven-year-olds in Welsh-medium education by 0.4 per cent. You're now hoping to increase that to 2 per cent over the next four years. That's a jump of five times what was actually realised. So, put in those terms, it does seem a very challenging target. I am in favour of having targets that are beyond one's reach, in a sense, because that inspires you to greater efforts. Your original target was 25 per cent of seven-year-olds by 2015 and 30 per cent by 2030. So, how confident do you think you can be, at this stage, of achieving this 2 per cent increase in four years?

I accept some of the points you make that, actually, we haven't seen that radical shift over the years that we'd hoped, but the difference now is that the resources are being put in to encourage the use. The fact that we're looking at meithrin, the fact that we're looking at the gofal—what is it called?—three-year-olds and four-year-olds getting free childcare. We're putting steps in place. Once you put those early years steps in place, then it's kind of almost a natural progression that people go on to Welsh language education. So, putting that—frontloading the money—onto those early years, I think, is crucial. I think the key thing for us to remember is that, yes, to increase demand, you've got to put that money in upfront in the early years.

The figures that we've got at the moment show that, in that four-year period of 2010-14, the percentage of seven-year-olds receiving Welsh-medium education increased, but in eight local authority areas it actually decreased. So, are you going to target your resources and focus upon the authority areas where the performance has been worst, or are you going to build on the success of those areas where it's been better?

So, we have asked every local authority now to come up with a Welsh education strategic plan, and we expect them to demonstrate to us what their plan is for reaching this goal of a million. When we first received the reports from local authorities, we sent every single one of them back to say, 'Actually, you're not being ambitious enough. You haven't understood what we were asking you to do'. We are adapting it to different local authorities. So, what you expect from Gwynedd is going to be different from what you expect from Torfaen. So, what's happened—and I've been quite impressed, actually—is that Welsh Government officials have created really close relationships with local authorities in developing these plans and getting them to understand that this is a shift that is expected of them. We're hoping now that we will, in the next few weeks, be able to sign off some of the strategic plans, but not all of them. There's a lot that we've sent back again, saying, 'You need to do more work'. There is a link between this and the twenty-first century schools programme. We have deliberately made that link so that there's an understanding that we'd expect them to take that into account while developing their twenty-first century schools programme.

10:45

Thank you for that. I won't trespass further upon what is going to be Jenny's line of questioning on the Welsh in education strategic plans, so I'll just leave that there. But I'd just like to go on to the problem of teacher training, which you mentioned a moment ago. The idea is to increase the number of primary teachers capable of teaching through the medium of Welsh from 2,900 to 3,100 by 2021 and secondary teachers from 1,800 to 2,200 in the same time, with 100 extra teachers teaching Welsh as a subject. But we've had, in 2017, I understand, a 25 per cent drop in applications for teacher training places. Does this put at risk the achievement of the objectives that I've just set out?

Well, I think, first of all, it's worth pointing out that these figures are for 2031, not 2021.

If there is an area that I'm concerned about, it's this. It's how do we get enough people into actually taking up this opportunity to teach through the medium of Welsh. So, I've asked my officials now to give me a monthly update on where we're at, because if we don't get this right, right from the beginning, we're going to miss all the targets later on. You can't force people to do this, but we have put incentives in place, so there's £5,000 for people who go into teaching through the medium of Welsh. But it's not just about those people; there are, actually, a lot of teachers in the system already who are not teaching through the medium of Welsh, and it may be that we could do a lot more to develop their confidence and their ability to teach through the medium of Welsh, or simply to ask them, 'Look, would you consider this?' I think we've got to be sensitive, because there's a lot of pressure on English-medium education as well. So, I think that's probably where we'll need to explore further—how many people are already in the system that we can actually encourage to teach through the medium of Welsh?

I appreciate the point you make about being sensitive, but if you are to achieve or approach the objective of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, you do have to have some kind of prioritisation in favour of Welsh, don't you, inevitably, given the paucity of resources—human resources as well as financial—at the moment. Especially in the early years, you'll need, perhaps, to have a greater emphasis upon this than you will need to have in, say, 20 or 30 years' time, hopefully, if we make progress in that period.

That's absolutely right, and part of that prioritisation is giving that incentive of £5,000 a year for people to go into the profession. Already, there's a whole programme of ensuring that people are aware of this incentive. I've heard some bits about that programme and that it's quite an intensive campaign, but I just want to make sure that we really focus on that because this has got to start in September.

Mae gan Siân Gwenllian gwestiwn ychwanegol yn yr adran yma. Diolch, Siân.

Siân Gwenllian has an additional question on this section. Thank you, Siân.

Roeddech chi'n sôn am athrawon yn y system sydd yn siarad Cymraeg, ond ddim yn dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac mae yna ymdrechion wedi bod i'w cael nhw i ddysgu drwy'r Gymraeg. Mae cynllun sabothol i athrawon. Rŵan, nid ydy hwnnw really wedi bod yn llwyddianus iawn, oherwydd mae yna lot o bobl yn mynd arno fo ond efallai nad ydyn nhw'n landio i fyny nôl yn y gweithle yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, mae angen edrych ar hwnnw.

You were just talking about teachers in the system who speak Welsh, but are not teaching through the medium of Welsh. There have been attempts to get them to teach through the medium of Welsh. There's a sabbatical scheme for teachers. Now, that really hasn't been all that successful, because a lot of teachers go on the course but they don't actually come back to the workplace to teach through the medium of Welsh. So, I think that needs to be looked at.

Wel, rydym ni'n gwneud lot o waith ar asesu'r cynllun sabothol. Rydym ni'n ymwybodol bod pobl yn poeni am hynny. Rydw i wedi gwneud pwynt o siarad gyda phobl sydd wedi bod ar y cynllun a gofyn iddyn nhw beth oedd eu profiad nhw a beth allem ni fod yn ei wella, ac un o'r pethau mae pobl rydw i wedi siarad â nhw yn ei ddweud yw bod eisiau lot mwy o ôl-ofal. So, yn lle mynd jest yn syth nôl mewn i'r system, mae eisiau iddyn nhw barhau â'r hyfforddiant mewn rhyw ffordd neu'i gilydd, ac mae hynny wedi cael ei 'tweak-io' nawr yn y system, ond rydym ni'n cadw golwg yn arbennig ar y cynllun sabothol yna.

Well, we're doing a great deal of work in assessing the sabbatical programme. We are aware that people are concerned about it. I've made a point of speaking to people who have attended the programme and asked them what their experience was and where we could be making improvements, and some of the feedback I've got is that people have said you do need a lot more after-care. So, rather than going straight back into the system, they need to continue with that training in one way or another, and that has now been tweaked in the system, but we are keeping a close eye on that sabbatical programme.

Pan fyddwch chi'n dweud hynny, a ydych chi'n gallu rhoi ffigurau inni o faint o bobl sydd wedi mynd ar y cyrsiau sabothol sydd yn mynd o beidio â dysgu Cymraeg o gwbl i ddysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg? A oes ffigurau fel yna gyda chi fel Gweinidog?

When you say that, can you give us some figures on how many people who follow the sabbatical course then go from not teaching Welsh at all to teaching through the medium of Welsh? Do you have figures on that, Minister?

10:50

Mae yna ffigyrau gyda ni. Gallaf i roi'r ffigyrau yma i chi os ŷch chi'n moyn. Mae 77 o bobl yn y system ar hyn o bryd ar lefel mynediad, sylfaen 71, uwch 101. So, mae 249 o bobl wedi mynd trwy'r system sabothol ar hyn o bryd. 

There are figures available and I can provide them to you if you'd like. Seventy-seven people are currently on the entry level, 71 on foundation and 101 on higher. So, there's a total of 249 people who have gone through the sabbatical system at the moment.

Jest eleni yw hwnna. Jest eleni. 

That's just this year. Just this year.

Ond faint o'r rheini sy'n defnyddio'r Gymraeg yn yr ysgolion?

But how many of them are using Welsh in schools now?

Ar ôl iddyn nhw wneud y cyrsiau. Dyna ydy'r pwynt: mae'n iawn mynd ar y cyrsiau, ond wedyn beth maen nhw'n ei wneud efo'r profiad maen nhw wedi'i gael a'r hyfforddiant mae nhw wedi'i gael? Os nad ydyn nhw'n gallu ei ddefnyddio fo yn y gweithle, mae o'n wast o amser. 

After being on the course. That's the point: it's all very well going on the course, but what happens afterwards? What are they doing with the experience that they've had and the training they've had? If they can't use it in the workplace, it's a waste of time.

Ar ôl y gwerthusiad diwethaf, mae'r ôl-ofal wedi dod yn rhan mwy allweddol o'r rhaglen newydd, felly maen nhw'n treialu, yn lle mynd yn ôl i'r ysgol Saesneg, eu bod nhw'n treulio tri i chwe mis mewn ysgol Gymraeg i ddysgu yn Gymraeg wedyn. Felly fel mae'r Gweinidog wedi dweud, rydym ni'n gwerthuso'r rhaglen yn barhaus er mwyn ei gwella hi. 

After the last evaluation, the aftercare, if you like, has become a more crucial part of the new programme. So, rather than going back to an English-medium school, they spend three to six months in a Welsh-medium school so that they can teach through the medium of Welsh. So, as the Minister has said, we continually evaluate the programme to make improvements.

Nid oes gennych chi ddim ffigyrau penodol, felly, ynglŷn â'r dilyniant. 

You don't have specific figures, therefore, regarding the progression. 

Mae pawb sydd wedi ymroi—. Mae o'n ymroddiad mawr i fynd ar y cwrs, achos mae o'n dri i chwe mis allan o'r ysgol, ac mae'n ymroddiad gan yr awdurdod lleol a'r ysgol ei hunan hefyd. Felly, pan maen nhw'n mynd nôl i'r ysgol, maen nhw yn dysgu Cymraeg yn yr ysgol wedyn. Ond, yn amlwg, mae yna rai yn defnyddio mwy neu llai, ac felly mae o'n dibynnu ar sefyllfa'r ysgol, ac mae yna drefniadau lleol gwahanol hefyd. Ond mae'r tîm sy'n arwain ar hwn wedi cymryd y gwerthusiad o ddifrif, ac mae yna bethau cadarnhaol yn eu lle rŵan er mwyn mynd i'r afael â hynny. 

Everyone who has committed—. It is a major commitment to go on the course, because it is three to six months out of school, and it's a commitment from the local authority and the school itself. So, when they do return to school, they do teach Welsh at school. But, clearly, some use more than others and it depends on the situation in the particular schools and there are different local arrangements in place too. But the team leading on this has taken the evaluation seriously, and there are positive steps in place now to tackle that.

O ran rhai o'r bobl rydw i wedi siarad â nhw, roedd rhai o'r rheini wedi mynd o ysgolion cynradd di-Gymraeg gydag ychydig iawn o Gymraeg y tu fewn i'r ysgol o gwbl, felly roedd cael rhywun i fynd ar y cwrs yma a mynd nôl i'r ysgol di-Gymraeg a oedd wedyn wedi dod yn tsiampion y Gymraeg y tu fewn i'r ysgol di-Gymraeg—. Achos rydw i yn meddwl bod rhaid i ni really newid y ffordd rydym ni'n dysgu Cymraeg yn yr ysgolion di-Gymraeg. Mae'n rhaid i ni wella safon hynny, ond yn gyntaf, mae'n rhaid i ni gael y bobl sydd gyda'r cefndir, y gallu a'r enthusiasm i ddysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Dyna sydd wedi digwydd yn rhai o'r achosion rydw i wedi clywed amdanyn nhw: nhw sydd wedi mynd nôl mewn wedyn i ddysgu tu fewn i'w hysgol nhw a bod yn tsiampions i'r ysgol. Felly nid yw e ddim jest am ddysgu Cymraeg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond mae'n rhan o newid diwylliant yr ysgol i fod yn fwy Cymreig. 

In relation to some of the people I've spoken to, some of them have gone from English-medium primary schools with very little Welsh there in the school at all, so it was about getting someone to go on the course and then go back to the school, the non-Welsh-medium school, and then become a Welsh champion within that school. Because I do think we really do need to change the way we teach Welsh in the English-medium schools. I think we have to improve that standard. But, first of all, we need to get those people who have that background and the ability and the enthusiasm to teach through the medium of Welsh and that's what's happened in some of these cases I've heard about. Those are the people who have gone back into the school to teach within their school and been champions for the school. It's not just about teaching Welsh through the medium of Welsh, but it's about changing the culture of the school to be more Welsh in nature.

Tybed—sori i gario ymlaen gyda'r pwynt yma—a oes modd i ni weld rhyw werthusiad o'r hyn sydd yn digwydd. Mae'n anodd i ni gwestiynu o hyd pam nad ydym ni'n gwybod, efallai—

Sorry to labour this point, but I wonder if we could see the evaluation of what's happening. It's difficult for us to ask questions when we don't know, perhaps—

Mae yna werthusiad yn mynd i gael ei gomisiynu yn 2018 er mwyn gwerthuso'r trefniadau newydd. 

There is an evaluation about to be commissioned for 2018 to look at the new arrangements.

Ocê. Fe wnawn ni edrych ar hynny. Symud ymlaen at Jenny Rathbone a chwestiynau ynglŷn â'r Gymraeg mewn addysg hefyd. 

Okay. We will look at that. We'll move on to Jenny Rathbone and questions in relation to Welsh in education also. 

Before I delve into the detail of the WESPs, I just want to go back a step, which is that Aled Roberts has expressed a lot of surprise that when he did his rapid review there was no target in relation to pre-school education, and I just wondered why we aren't putting a little bit more focus on what goes on before the child gets to nursery. Because looking at the 2011 census, although just under half of the Welsh learners learnt it at home and just over 50 per cent at school, when you look at the actual child cohort of three to 15 year-olds, only 20 per cent learnt it at home and the rest are learning it in school. So, there is a key issue around people who speak Welsh not teaching their children Welsh, and I wondered how much that was to do with the dominance of media, television and radio, and what resources are available for very small children—because we all learn language from birth—to access the sort of age-appropriate videos like Peppa Pig, Stick Man et cetera. Are they available in Welsh? Because that would be a way of reinforcing the Welsh language rather than the default option of English. 

10:55

I think it's really important. It's more the media side of things than my area, but, actually, my first job after I graduated was photocopying SuperTed scripts and Fireman Sam scripts for S4C. Very glamorous, it was. What was really interesting about that was that, actually, it was a way of reaching in to homes that were non-Welsh speaking. Peppa Pig does exist in the medium of Welsh. So, there's a lot of— 

Absolutely. Paw Patrol as well. Apparently that's the go-to thing for kids at the moment. So, there are things that we can do. There are things that are being done. But also, kind of just stepping outside my brief slightly, I think what's interesting is that it's also an opportunity for S4C. It's what they actually really specialised in in those early years because they thought it was a way of really presenting the Welsh language to the world, and they did. They sold SuperTed and Fireman Sam across the world, and those were made in Wales.

Okay. So, perhaps they need to refresh some of that strategy.

Now focusing on your targets for pre-school education and these 40 groups that you are hoping to develop in the next three years, given the shortage of nursery education across the nation, there is—. Clearly, if we are able to develop high-quality Welsh-medium nurseries, people will go to them regardless of what language they speak at home. So, I suppose the key to that is the early years teacher who is going to deliver that. Is that the main anxiety you have about being able to meet that target by 2021, or is it schools that are being reluctant to expand their buildings to accommodate a Welsh-medium nursery?

Training is something we are very focused upon. So, part of the attempt to set up 40 Mudiad Meithrin centres goes hand in hand with the fact that we need the teachers to staff those Mudiad Meithrin centres. So, all that is in place. There is a structure—

But is that the biggest barrier to developing these or is it developing the places to house the operations?

That's one of the problems, but there is another issue about structure. You will have heard in the budget that there is an extra amount of money that could be allocated to expanding, for example, Welsh nursery provision. So, that additional money—I think it's £30 million—that could go now into twenty-first century schools could be spent—. For example, we've got the Hamadryad new school here. Because there were restrictions in terms of the budget, it was difficult to put a meithrin as a part of that school, which has been done in other schools. With this additional funding, there may be a possibility that that could be done. So, that additional funding could be very, very useful.

Okay. But would you say that the main barrier is to ensure that we have the quality workforce to deliver quality nursery education?

Okay, but of the statistics you cited, I didn't hear anything about early years teachers doing the conversion course.

That is within the contract that's been given to Mudiad Meithrin. 

All right, great. Thank you very much indeed for that.

Aled Roberts was quite concerned about the quality of the relationship that the Government had with local authorities, and picking up on Neil Hamilton's point, do you think your relationship has now improved with local authorities? What is your strategy when you think that Welsh education strategic plans are not fit for purpose?

Well, I was very impressed recently when I met the people who were actually responsible for developing that relationship between Welsh Government and the local authorities in developing these Welsh in education strategic plans. It strikes me that they have a very good relationship now. They've really got under the skin of the issues within local authorities. I think there are three or four people who are responsible for really getting to grips with this issue in the local authorities throughout Wales, and they have developed very close relationships, from what I understood, which is why we have seen a transformation in what's come forward from what I would say now is the majority of local authorities in Wales.

11:00

Nevertheless, there are eight local authorities where the number of Welsh-medium learners has gone down, which—. I mean, it's clearly not Cardiff, so is there any pattern to where these local authorities are where Welsh-medium education numbers are actually going down?

It's really, really varied across the whole of Wales. So, as I say, what we ask of Gwynedd, which came forward with their proposals—. And, actually, for Gwynedd, that wasn't good enough either. You know, we've got to be driving up—. Even though it's quite a high number of people who speak Welsh there, where is your ambition? You know, we want to see more. The same thing is true for Torfaen, but it would be in a very different place. So, you have to adapt, I think, to what's going on locally and what the ability is locally, and that's what we've done. We have, I think, been quite a lot more demanding now, and people have responded—at least most of them have.

Okay. So, at what point do you think we're going to see this better relationship with local authorities translating into more early years nurseries—

So, in the next few weeks, I'll be signing off probably more than half of the Welsh in education strategic plans. But what I'm hoping is that that will stimulate the others to come to the table with improved plans themselves. So, I think it is important to make sure that you reward those who have shifted. But the others will understand then that, when you shift, there is a reward at the end of the programme. But the Aled Roberts proposals—I think they were all accepted by the Welsh Government. But there was recognition and there is a recognition that when you're talking about strategic plans, the missing link was those early years. So, that will be addressed in future. 

I think the other issue was about actually making sure that we are using much broader time horizons. So, you can't do language planning on the basis of a couple of years; you need to be doing a much longer period.

Okay. One of the other recommendations was that you set up a board to broaden and push your ambition. So, where are you at on that?

The board is almost ready. So, we're going to be announcing that fairly shortly.

The objectives are kind of set out in Aled's recommendations, really. It's a question of getting somebody to make sure that people are running with it and pushing. I think the strategy's there, more or less.

The focus seems to be entirely on building up the size of the Welsh-medium sector, and there seems to be very little said about the English-medium sector and how you increase and improve the standard of Welsh being taught there, which is still where the majority of children are going to be educated for some time to come. So, there seems to be a bit of a blind spot on this. What's the Government doing?

Let me assure you that there are two things that I'm absolutely focused on: one is increasing the number going into teacher training, and the other is what are we doing to improve Welsh language teaching in English-medium schools. Now, there is a whole strategy that is going to be put in place. We've got the whole Donaldson review and all of that, but actually that's not coming into force until 2021, and I don't think we can miss this time. So, I am really focused on what it is we can do to help and support. I think there is a lack of resources available for people who are teaching Welsh in non-Welsh-speaking schools. So, I've already commissioned some work on that to see what we can do to support those teachers, particularly in the early years. So, you see a fall-off. You see children in primary schools being quite enthusiastic about the Welsh language, and then they hit secondary school and their interest just falls off. I think that's a really crucial time. So, that's where I'm focused. I'm not waiting till 2021; I want this to be done now. If we wait, we've lost another cohort because the people—. By 2050, we're hoping that we're going to get 40 per cent of people in Wales sending their children to Welsh-medium schools. Well, unless we get to the children who'll be having the babies in future, who are currently in school—in English-medium schools—we're not going to get anywhere and we're not going to hit those targets. There's a whole cultural shift that we need to do, and part of that—. The Donaldson stuff, I think, is great; it's going in the right direction, but I don't think we can wait that long. We need to get on with it now. So, I am absolutely focused on that, I can assure you.

11:05

I'm encouraged by that recognition of the issue; it doesn't seem, though, that providing extra resources for Welsh teachers in English-medium schools goes anywhere near close to tackling the problem. To be fair to you, this is a huge problem and I'm just concerned that the whole focus of the sector is elsewhere. So, what can we do to build up the capacity to address this problem? Because what you've announced is a speck in the ocean, isn't it? What else can we do just to get the thinking together and the recognition to attack this end of the problem?

There's a huge amount of work being done. There's going to be a change in terms of how we assess Welsh. So, we have this strange situation at the moment where you can go through a Welsh-medium education school, come out, fail your GCSE, have no qualification at all to prove that you can actually speak Welsh, and somebody comes out from a non-Welsh-speaking school with an A in Welsh. It doesn't make any sense for people. It's very difficult for people to know, 'Right, what is your Welsh-language ability?' So, I do think this idea of having some kind of continuum of assessment makes sense. Particularly if you're an employer, you want to know whereabouts is this person on that scale. So, I think that's the right thing to do. My concern is that it's going to take—. And there's a lot of work being put into that, but it's a bit more long-term.

I've been and spoken again—. I like to do these little secret squirrel things where I go and actually ask people who are on the front line, without these guys anywhere near me, to say, 'What does it look like? How does it feel to you?' That's the answer I was getting from some of them: 'We need some resources, we need consistency'. So, what's happening at the moment is that a lot of them are basically creating their own resources for the syllabus whereas, actually, in a lot of other subjects, those resources exist. There is a paucity in terms of Welsh. So, a lot of work has been done in ERW, as I understand it, to fill that gap. So, that is an area where I'm really trying to make sure that we focus.

It seems one of the main challenges for schools now is that the staff themselves don't speak any Welsh, so you're having young children being taught their Welsh by somebody who can't speak a word of it. Is there something that can be done—there's no quick fix to this—maybe to draw upon volunteers to come in and help? Is there this sort of thinking taking place?

I think there's a lot more we probably could do with volunteers. Part of the problem, I guess, with that would be how difficult would it be to find volunteers in Torfaen, compared to Gwynedd. So, there would be an issue there, but there's no reason why we couldn't get on with some of that. Perhaps that is something that we should think about: creating an infrastructure for volunteers. I'll take that one and think about it.

Rwy'n credu, jest i gario ymlaen o hynny, bod angen i'r learning support assistants mewn ysgolion gael mwy o hyfforddiant drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Rydw i'n datgan diddordeb. Mae fy mam i'n dysgu mewn ysgol yn Nhrefforest, ysgol Gatholig. Hi yw'r unig berson sy'n siarad Cymraeg yn yr ysgol. Mae hi'n dweud, petasai hi'n cael help gyda'r cynorthwywyr staff—maen nhw ymhob ystafell, fel afer—yn siarad Cymraeg, byddai hynny'n help. Rwyf i'n wyndran a oes yna fwy o emphasis ar eu helpu nhw i ddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, neu gyrsiau hyfforddiant y gallan nhw fynd arnynt i helpu.

If I could just take that forward, I do think that the learning support assistants in schools need further Welsh language training as well. I declare an interest. My mother teaches at a school in Trefforest. It's a Catholic school, and she's the only Welsh-speaker in that school. She said that if she could get support with the assistants—there's usually one in every room—speaking Welsh that would be of assistance to her. I was wondering if there's more emphasis on helping them to undertake training in Welsh, or is there training available to them.

Wel, dyna yw'r cynllun sabothol. So, dyna yw'r pwynt, fel ein bod ni yn rhoi—. Yn amlwg, o ran y ffigurau, nad ydym ni'n cyrraedd lot o bobl eto. Ond dyna'r pwrpas: i wneud yn union beth yr ŷch chi'n sôn amdano.

Well, that's what the sabbatical scheme is, of course. That's the point of that: to make sure that we give—. Clearly, in relation to the figures, we are not reaching a lot of people yet, but that's the intention: to do exactly what you've mentioned.

Ie. Ocê. Symud ymlaen at Suzy Davies nawr, gyda chwestiynau am y Gymraeg mewn addysg, ond cynlluniau ar gyfer twf. Diolch.

Okay. We'll move on to Suzy Davies, with questions about Welsh in education and planning for growth.

11:10

Diolch. Just to finish off on these points quickly, volunteers: you've got a ready market out there called the Welsh baccalaureate. There's compulsory volunteering in there, and there was actually a project due to run in the Neath Valley at Ysgol Ystalyfera, but I ran out of money, so I couldn't do it. But that's just a thought out there.

Jest ar y pwynt a wnaeth Lee ynglŷn â Chymraeg mewn ysgolion di-Gymraeg, mae yna ddigon o arian yn mynd mewn trwy'r raising school standards BEL. Rydym ni'n sôn am £4 miliwn, tuag at £5 miliwn, ond mae peth o hwnnw yn mynd i'r consortia—wel, rŷch chi wedi dweud rhywbeth am hynny. Sut ydych chi'n teimlo am y ffordd y mae'r arian yna yn mynd i gael ei wario? A ydy e'n well iddo fynd i ysgolion i greu eu hadnoddau eu hunain, fel rŷch chi wedi sôn amdano, neu fyddai'r syniad gorau i gael yr arian mewn lle canolog i helpu gyda hyn? Jest cwestiwn agored yw hwnnw. Achos mae yn bwysig—rydw i'n cytuno 100 y cant gyda hynny. 

Just on Lee's point on Welsh in English-medium schools, there is plenty of money going in through the raising school standards BEL. You're talking about £4 million or £5 million. But some of that goes to the consortia—well, you've already mentioned that. So, how do you feel about the expenditure of that money? Is it better that it goes to the schools so that they can create their own resources? Or would it be a better idea to have the funding in a central pot? That's an open question in a way. Because it is important, I agree 100 per cent on that. 

Mae'r arian yna yn cael ei gydlynu yn strategol drwy'r consortia ar hyn o bryd i wneud yn siŵr bod yr initiatives i gyd yn cyd-redeg efo ei gilydd. Mae yna gydlynydd iaith ym mhob consortiwm drwy'r arian er mwyn hybu a hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg mewn addysg—yn nealltwriaeth i ydy boed mewn addysg Gymraeg neu mewn addysg Saesneg. Rydw i'n meddwl bod rhaglen yr Siartr Iaith wedi bod yn allweddol. Mae wedi cael ei chychwyn mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg, ond mae yna botensial i ddechrau honno mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg. Achos, fel rydych chi wedi cydnabod, mae yn fwy na jest siarad yr iaith. Mae'r ymwybyddiaeth a dealltwriaeth, y cariad at Gymreictod, yn hollbwysig, achos mae dysgu yn rhywbeth lle, os oes agwedd bositif, yna mae pobl yn fwy tebygol o ddysgu, ac eisiau dysgu.

That funding is strategically co-ordinated through the consortia to make sure that those initiatives all dovetail together. There is a language co-ordinator in every consortium tasked with promoting the Welsh language in education, whether in Welsh-medium or English-medium education. I think the Siartr Iaith programme has been a key element. It started in Welsh-medium schools, but there is potential to start it in English-medium schools, because, as you have already recognised, it's more than just about speaking the language. The feeling of passion towards Welsh, being Welsh, is really important. Learning is much easier if you have a positive attitude, and people are more likely to learn then, and want to learn.

A ydy e'n dechrau creu diwylliant mewn ardaloedd di-Gymraeg? A ydych chi'n gweld unrhyw fath o dystiolaeth i gadarnhau hynny?

Is it starting to change the culture in non-Welsh speaking areas? Do you have any evidence to support that?

Yn sicr, ble mae'r Siartr Iaith—. Ac rydw i'n gwybod—yng Ngwynedd y gwnaeth y Siartr Iaith gychwyn, ac mae'r gwerthusiadau cynnar, a'r person a wnaeth yn datblygu'r rhaglen, wedi gweld sut mae ar waith yn Wrecsam a'r ardaloedd yn y de-ddwyrain, ac maen nhw wedi cael eu cyffwrdd, achos mae wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth anferthol yn fanna. Mae wedi rhoi fframwaith mewn ardaloedd di-Gymraeg i Gymreigio, ac mae wedi ysgogi arloesi. Rydw i'n gwybod bod cyngor cymuned yn Wrecsam yn agor siop coffi, rydw i meddwl dau ddiwrnod yr wythnos, a bod rhieni di-Gymraeg yn mynd â'r plant, ac yn rhedeg—. So, mae wedi creu sens o gymuned a Chymreictod tu hwnt i'r ysgol. Mae yna lot o enghreifftiau da fel yna.

Certainly, where the Siartr Iaith has been used—. And I know—in Gwynedd the Siartr Iaith began, of course, and those early indications, and the person who developed that programme has seen how it's in operation in Wrexham and areas in the south east, and they have had a very good impression of that, because it has made a great impression there. It has put a framework in non-Welsh speaking areas to develop the Welsh language and has encouraged innovation. I know that the community council in Wrexham opens a coffee shop, I think two days a week, and non-Welsh speaking parents take their children there. So, that's created a feeling of community and Welshness there outside of the school, and there are many good examples like that.

Ocê. Achos mae un o'r cwestiynau sydd gyda fi ynglŷn â chynllunio dros dwf yn nefnydd y Gymraeg, gobeithio, yw hyn: mae yna ddyletswydd statudol, rydw i'n credu, ar y cynghorau ar hyn o bryd, nid dim ond i asesu gofyn ond i hyrwyddo'r gofyn hefyd. Yn anffodus, nid oes gofyniad statudol i ddarparu dros unrhyw dwf, ond mae'n debyg i fi, ac rydw i wedi edrych trwy'r papurau yr ydym ni wedi'u cael oddi wrthoch chi—welais i ddim sôn o hyfforddi'r Gymraeg. A ydy'r syniad yw—H? Na, hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg, sori—gair anghywir. A ydy'r syniad i drosglwyddo'r ddyletswydd i Fudiad Meithrin, er enghraifft, i greu twf tu fewn i gymunedau, neu ydy'r WESPs yn dal yn cynnwys unrhyw sylwadau ynghylch dyletswydd y cynghorau eu hunain i hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg? Achos byddai'n hawdd i fod yn dawel ar hynny, a gweld dim twf o gwbl.

Okay. Because one of the questions I have in relation to planning for growth in the use of the Welsh language, I hope, is this: there is a statutory duty, I think, on councils at the moment not only to assess demand, but also to promote that demand as well. Unfortunately, there isn't a statutory requirement to provide for any growth, but I've looked through the papers that we've had from you and I didn't see any mention of training in relation to the Welsh language. Sorry, I should say promotion—I used the wrong word there. Is this idea to transfer the duty to Mudiad Meithrin, for example, to create growth within the communities, or do the WESPs still include any comments on the duty of the authorities themselves to promote the Welsh language? Because it would be easy to keep quiet about that, and not see any growth at all. 

Rydw i'n meddwl bod Aled wedi nodi rhywfaint o anhawster o ran mesur y galw. Mae'n gysyniad od iawn. Mae'n gweithio mewn rhai ardaloedd, ond nid ydy e'n gweithio mewn ardaloedd eraill, achos mae mesur y galw ymysg rhai sydd ddim yn deall yn y lle cyntaf—.

Ond mae'r ddyletswydd yna yn dal yn ddyletswydd gyfreithiol o dan y rheoliadau cyfredol. Felly, mae'n gwestiwn yr ydym ni'n ei ofyn fel swyddogion pan fyddem ni'n cael y sgyrsiau. Mae'r Llywodraeth wedi paratoi deunyddiau ar gyfer hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg a all pob cyngor sir eu defnyddio. Cafodd eu lansio ym mis Medi. Felly, mae yna gefnogaeth i'r cynghorau sir, ac arweiniad ar sut y byddan nhw'n cyfleu negeseuon. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw addasu'r negeseuon yna yn lleol, achos mae sefyllfa'r Gymraeg yn wahanol ym mhob ardal.

I think Aled did note some difficulties in terms of measuring demand. It works in some areas, but it doesn't in others, because measuring demand among those who may not understand the questions in the first place—.

But that duty is still a legal responsibility in the current regulations, and therefore it is a question that we as officials ask when we have these conversations. The Government has prepared materials for Welsh language promotion and all councils can use those. They were launched in September. So, there is support for the local authorities, and guidance as to how they should be conveying messages. But, of course, they have to adapt those messages at a local level because the situation of the Welsh language differs in all areas.

Rydw i'n derbyn hynny, ond jest eisiau cael dipyn bach o syniad o pa bwyslais rydych chi'n ei roi yn y WESPs ar hyrwyddo. Beth ydych chi'n ddisgwyl ei weld yn y WESPs arno ynglŷn â beth mae'r cyngor—pa un bynnag—yn wneud i drio tyfu'r gofyn am addysg drwy'r Gymraeg yn yr ardal? A ydy'n glir? A oes yna rywbeth fel footnote, neu a ydych chi'n gweld ei fod e'n rhywbeth sylfaenol? 

I accept that, but I'd just like to have some sort of idea as to what emphasis you put in the WESPs on promotion. What do you expect to see in the WESPs in relation to what a council—whichever one—is doing in order to grow the demand for Welsh-medium education in that particular area? Is it clear? Is there a footnote in there or do you see it as something fundamental?

11:15

Mae o'n rhan o'r sgwrs sylfaenol. So, mae yna ddeilliannau pendant ac mae yna strwythur statudol i'r berthynas ac i'r WESP ar hyn o bryd, ac mae mesur y galw a hyrwyddo yn rhan annatod o hwnnw. Ond newydd ddod i rym oedd y clause yna, felly nid yw wedi bod yn ofynnol dim ond am flwyddyn. 

It is part of that fundamental conversation. So, there are specific outcomes and there is a statutory framework in terms of the relationship and the WESP at the moment, and measuring demand and promotion is an integral part of that. But that clause has only just come into force, so it's only been a requirement for 12 months. 

Ie, wel, mae yna broblem yna. 

So, there is a problem there. 

Oes, mae yna broblem efo hwnnw. 

Yes, there is a problem with that. 

Gan ddweud hynny, a ydy'n bosibl i'r—? Beth ydych chi'n ofyn i'r cynghorau wedyn i'w wneud i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gallu gwneud beth oedden nhw'n addo ei wneud ynglŷn â hyrwyddo? 

Having said that, is it possible—? What are you asking the authorities therefore to do to ensure that they are able to do what they're promising to do in relation to promotion?  

Mae yna sawl ffordd o'i wneud. Mae yna fforwm iaith addysg ym mhob sir, ac mae partneriaid ar lawr gwlad sy'n hybu a hyrwyddo—y mentrau iaith, y Mudiad Meithrin. So, mae'r holl bartneriaid hybu a hyrwyddo yn rhan o hwnnw. Felly, mae yna lot o sylw a thrafodaethau ynglŷn â beth ydy rôl bob partner.  

There are several ways of doing it. There is an education language forum in every county, and partners on the ground that promote—the mentrau iaith, the Mudiad Meithrin. So, all the promotion partners are part of that. So, there's a great deal of focus and discussion as to the role of each partner there. 

Felly, nid ydyn nhw'n dod nôl atoch chi a dweud, 'Hoffwn i wneud hynny, ond nid oes adnoddau gyda ni.' 

So, they're not coming back to you and saying, 'I'd like to do that, but I don't have the resources.' 

Na, achos mae yna fforwm iaith addysg ym mhob sir sy'n cynnwys bob partner. 

No, because there is an education language forum in every county including all the partners. 

Achos roeddwn i'n mynd i ofyn a oes yna ryw gwestiwn dros y posibilrwydd cael cyllidebau mwy nag un flwyddyn, er enghraifft, i helpu gyda'r broblem—ac rwy'n ei gweld fel problem yn lleol—o ran hyrwyddo'r iaith, yn arbennig i deuluoedd ifanc. 

O safbwynt cyfalaf yn lle refeniw—

Because I was going to ask whether there is any question here in relation to having funds for more than one year, for example, to help with this problem—and I see it as a problem locally—in relation to promotion, especially for young families. 

In relation to capital as opposed to revenue—

Ar y pwynt yna, mae yna raglen Cymraeg i Blant yn benodol i dargedu teuluoedd ym mhob ardal yng Nghymru rŵan.

On that point, there is a programme Cymraeg for Kids, which specifically targets families in all areas of Wales. 

A ydych chi wedi ystyried eto cael rhywun sy'n siarad Cymraeg ym mhob setting Dechrau'n Deg? Nid yw cweit yr un cwestiwn a wnaeth Jenny ei ofyn. A yw hyn wedi dod lan yn ddiweddar? 

Have you considered again having someone who speaks Welsh in every Flying Start setting? It's not quite the same question as Jenny asked. Has this come up lately? 

Ydy. Mae gennym ni ffigurau ar Dechrau'n Deg, ac mae'r Mudiad Meithrin yn gweithio'n agos efo Dechrau'n Deg. Ond mae mwyafrif rhaglen Dechrau'n Deg wedi ei thargedu at y rhieni; rydw i'n meddwl bod tua 80 y cant o'r arlwy ar gyfer datblygu sgiliau rhieni. Felly, gall y rhieni fod angen arlwy Saesneg ond eu bod nhw eisiau mynediad o bosibl i addysg Gymraeg. Felly, lle mae'r rhaglen Dechrau'n Deg wedi adnabod bod rhieni Saesneg am gael addysg Gymraeg i'w plant, maen nhw'n cael eu cyfeirio os oes yna arlwy ar gael. 

Yes. We do have figures on Flying Start and Mudiad Meithrin work closely with them. But the majority of the Flying Start programme is targeted at parents; I think that some 80 per cent of it is targeted at parents. So, parents might want that provision in English, but might also want to access Welsh-medium education for their children. So, where Flying Start has identified that English-speaking parents want Welsh-medium education for their children, they are referred to it if it's available. 

Ond maen nhw tu fas i'r WESPs, a ydyn nhw? Nid oeddwn i cweit yn siŵr am hynny; dyna pam roeddwn i wedi gofyn. 

But they are outside of the WESPs, are they? I wasn't sure about that; that's why I was asking. 

Ardaloedd lle nad oes lot o Gymraeg—a oes yna rywbeth yn y WESPs i esbonio sut mae'r cyngor yn mynd i ddenu athrawon i'r ardal os nad ydynt yn gallu creu nhw eu hunain? A ydy hynny'n rhan o beth maen nhw'n ei wneud? 

In areas where there is not much Welsh, is there anything in the WESP to explain how the authority is going to attract teachers to the area if they cannot create them themselves? Is that part of what they do? 

Sori, nid ydw i—

Sorry, I don't—

Rwyf i jest yn ystyried lleoedd eithaf lleol i ni, rili, lle nad oes yna lot o Gymraeg yn yr ysgolion ac nid oes lot o Gymraeg yn y gymuned. Mae angen mwy o athrawon Cymraeg i ddod i fewn. A ydy o'n rhan o'r WESPs i gynghorau i esbonio sut maen nhw am ddenu athrawon Cymraeg i'w hardal nhw? A ydy'n rhan o'r WESP? 

I'm just thinking about areas that are local to us, really, where there isn't much Welsh in schools and there's not much Welsh in the community. We need more Welsh teachers to come in. Is it included in the WESPs for authorities to explain how they will attract Welsh-speaking teachers to their areas? Is it in the WESP? 

Wel, mae'r sgwrs am athrawon ac adnoddau, wrth gwrs, yn rhan annatod o'r sgwrs am agor mwy o ysgolion. Felly, mi fuasai fo, achos mae'r broses WESP yn broses hir; mae'n cymryd tair i saith mlynedd. Felly, yn y cyd-destun yna, os oes cytundeb i agor ysgol, yna byddai'r pethau sydd eu hangen er mwyn gwneud yr ysgol yna yn weithredol hefyd yn cael eu trafod. 

Well, the conversation on teachers and resources, of course, is an integral part of the conversation about schools. So, yes, it is included, because the WESP process is a lengthy process; it takes three to seven years. So, in that context, if there is an agreement to open a new school, then the things necessary to bring that school into operation would also be discussed. 

Ocê. Wel, rydych chi wedi sôn am y tymor hir: beth ydych chi'n ddisgwyl gan gynghorau i ddatrys y broblem hon, sef, mewn ardaloedd lle nad oes ddim lot o Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd ac mae angen twf, mae gyda ni broblem lle mae lot o ysgolion newydd Cymraeg yn cael eu lleoli mewn lle canolog rhywle yn y sir? Pan fo hynny yn digwydd, wrth gwrs, mae lot o bobl yn bell o le y mae'r ysgol newydd wedi cael ei sefydlu. Sut rŷm ni'n delio gyda hynny a gyda'r uchelgais o gael mwy o ysgolion yn y dyfodol? Os rŷm ni'n cael gormod yng nghanol bob sir ar hyn o bryd, mae'n mynd i fod yn anodd gofyn am ysgolion ychwanegol ar y peripharies ymlaen llaw. A ydy hyn yn broblem?

Okay. Talking about the longer term, then, what are you expecting from authorities to solve this problem, that is, in areas where there's not much Welsh at the moment and growth is need, we have a problem where many new Welsh-medium schools are being located in some central areas within counties? When that happens, of course, many people find themselves far away from the new school. How are we going to deal with that and the ambition to have more schools in future? Because if we have too many located in the middle of each county, it's going to be difficult to ask for additional schools on the peripheries. Is that a problem?

11:20

Mae lleoliad ysgol yn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr achos beth sy'n digwydd yw bod pobl—os nad oes diddordeb ganddyn nhw mewn anfon eu plant nhw i ysgolion Cymraeg, ond os yw un yn agor y drws nesaf iddyn nhw, maen nhw jest yn mynd, 'Wel, fe wnawn ni fynd amdani'. So, mae cael daearyddiaeth y peth—rwy'n meddwl fod hwnnw'n rhan bwysig o ran sut rŷm ni'n setio fe allan. Mae'n galed i ni—gallwn ni ymyrryd i raddau o ran beth sydd gyda'r llywodraethau lleol, ond, yn y pen draw, bydd rhaid iddyn nhw ystyried ble fydd y llefydd gorau. Ond mae yna adegau, rwy'n meddwl, pan fydd yn rhaid inni ystyried daearyddiaeth sut mae hyn yn gweithio. So, er enghraifft, mae fy nheulu i’n dod o Dyddewi. Petawn i eisiau i’m mhlant i i fynd i ysgol Gymraeg o Dyddewi, byddai’n cymryd tua awr a hanner mewn bws i gyrraedd ysgol Crymych. Wel, nid yw e’n ymarferol.

The location of a school has a major impact because what happens is that, if people aren't interested in sending their children to a Welsh-medium school but if one opens next door to them, they'll say, 'Well, okay, let's go for it'. So, getting the geography right is an important part of how we set all of this out. It's difficult for us—we can intervene to a certain extent with local authorities, but ultimately, they will have to consider the best locations. But there are times when I do think we need to consider geography and the impact that that has. So, for example, my family’s from St David’s. If I wanted my children to go to a Welsh-medium school from St David’s, it would take them about an hour and a half by bus to get to Crymych school. It’s just not practical.

Rwy’n falch i ddweud bod ysgol newydd yn mynd i agor yn Hwlffordd, ond y pwynt yw bod y busnes yma o ble maen nhw’n ddaearyddol yn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr.

I’m pleased to say that a new school will be opening in Haverfordwest, but the point is that this business of where schools are located geographically does have a major impact.

Ac rydych chi'n ystyried hynny fel rhan o’r broses o edrych ar y WESPs.

And that’s something that you would consider as part of the process of looking at the WESPs.

Achos y cwestiwn olaf, Gadeirydd, yw: beth ydych chi’n mynd i’w wneud os na fydd rhai o’r cynlluniau yna yn dod lan i’r snuff yn y lle cyntaf, neu os nad yw cynghorau yn sticio atyn nhw? Pa mor ddewr ydych chi’n mynd i fod?

My final question is: what are you going to do if some of these schemes don’t come up to snuff in the first place, or if the authorities don’t stick to them? How brave are you going to be?

Wel, rwy’n meddwl ein bod wedi bod yn eithaf dewr yn barod yn eu hanfon nhw i gyd yn ôl. Nid ydym ni'n mynd i’w harwyddo nhw tan ein bod ni’n hapus, ac, eto, rŷm ni wedi anfon rhai arall yn ôl eto. Felly, y cwestiwn wedyn yw: sut ŷm ni’n eu cadw nhw i fynd ati? Rwy’n meddwl bod y cysylltiad yma rhwng twenty-first century schools yn un pwysig, achos mae’r arian ychwanegol yna ar gael iddyn nhw. Nawr, nid wyf i’n dweud fan hyn y bydd yr arian yna yn mynd tuag at ysgolion Cymraeg—rhaid inni fod yn really gofalus—ond mae’n rhaid inni sylweddoli, ac mae’n rhaid iddyn nhw sylweddoli, ein bod ni eisiau gweld eu bod nhw’n cymryd y system yma o ddifrif, ac rwy’n meddwl eu bod nhw yn dechrau gwneud hynny.

Well, I think we’ve been quite brave already in sending them all back to the authorities. We’re not going to sign them off until we’re content, and, again, we’ve returned some a second time. So, the question therefore is: how do we ensure that progress is maintained? I think this link with twenty-first century schools is important, because there is this additional funding available. Now, I’m not saying here that that funding will be provided to Welsh-medium schools—we have to be very careful here—but we have to realise, and they have to realise, that we do want to see that they are taking the system seriously, and I think they’re starting to do that.

Ocê. Jest un olaf: sawl gwaith ydych chi’n mynd yn ôl at y cyngor i weld beth maen nhw’n ei wneud? Mae’n dibynnu os bydd yn gwneud ei stwff yn dda, ydy?

Okay. Just one final one: how many times are you going back to them to find out what they’re up to? Does it depend on whether they’re doing their work well?

Wel, nid ydym ni wedi pasio unrhyw WESP eto, felly gadewch inni ddechrau ar y system gyntaf cyn ein bod ni’n dweud, ‘Reit, nid ydych chi wedi—’. Un o’r issues—ac mae hyn yn rhywbeth y mae Aled Roberts wedi’i wneud yn glir—yw ei bod hi’n gwneud sens i edrych mewn ffordd mwy hirdymor. Felly, bydd yn rhaid inni gadw golwg ar y sefyllfa dros gyfnod o amser. Rwy’n gobeithio y byddwn ni’n edrych ar hynny o fewn beth mae Aled Roberts wedi’i ddweud a beth fydd y bwrdd yn ei argymell yn y dyfodol.

Well, we haven’t passed a single WESP yet, so let’s get the system up and running first before we say ‘Right you haven’t—’. One of the issues—and this is something that Aled Roberts has made clear—is that it makes sense to look at things over the longer term. So, we will have to keep an eye on the situation over a period of time. I hope that we will be looking at that within the timescale set out by Aled Roberts and what the board will recommend in the future.

Ocê, diolch yn fawr. Diolch, Gadeirydd. 

Okay, thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. 

Diolch. A allaf fi jest ofyn cwestiwn clou ar hwn? Fe wnaethoch chi ddweud ar Radio Cymru fod awdurdodau lleol yn wynebu’r posibilrwydd na fyddant yn derbyn cyllid i adeiladu ysgolion newydd os nad ydynt yn cynyddu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn eu hardaloedd. Ai arian ar gyfer ysgol Cymraeg—

Thank you. Can I just ask one quick question on this? You mentioned on Radio Cymru that local authorities are looking at the possibility of not receiving funding to build new schools if they do not increase the provision of Welsh-medium education in their areas. Is that funding for Welsh-medium schools—

Ysgolion yn gyffredinol. So, na. Mae’n rhaid i ni fod yn glir nad yw’r arian yna, o reidrwydd, ar gyfer ysgolion Cymraeg, ond rydym ni eisiau gweld beth yw eu strategaeth nhw ar gyfer ysgolion Cymraeg cyn ein bod ni—. Mae yna ysgolion sydd mewn stad waeth—sydd yn ysgolion Saesneg—nag ysgolion Cymraeg. Felly, mae’n rhaid i ni fod yn ofalus yna. Rydw i’n meddwl y byddai’n creu cynyrf mawr petaem ni’n dweud, 'Dim ond ysgolion Cymraeg fydd yn cael ysgolion newydd.' Na, nid ydym ni’n mynd i lawr y trywydd yna. Ond y pwynt yw, 'Mae yna gysylltiad; rydym ni eisiau i chi gymryd hyn o ddifrif.'

Schools in general. So, no. We have to be clear that money is not necessarily for Welsh-medium schools, but we want to see what their strategy is for Welsh-medium schools before we—. There are schools in a worse condition—English-medium schools—than Welsh-medium schools. So, we do have to be careful there. I think that it would create a great furore if we said, 'Only Welsh-medium schools will have new schools.' No, we’re not going in that direction at all. But the point is, 'There is a link; we want you to take this seriously.'

Ocê, grêt. Diolch—rwy’n deall hynny nawr. Siân Gwenllian.

Okay, great. Thank you—I understand that point now. Siân Gwenllian.

Jest ar y pwynt yna, nid ydw i’n cweit yn deall, achos mae yna £30 miliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer rhaglen ysgolion yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, ac roeddwn i o dan yr argraff bod y £30 miliwn yna ar gyfer codi ysgolion newydd Cymraeg.

Just on that point, I don’t quite understand, because there is an additional £30 million for the twenty-first century schools programme, and I was under the impression that that £30 million was for building new Welsh-medium schools.

11:25

Mae yna wahaniaeth rhwng y £30 miliwn a'r £2.3 biliwn. Mae'r £30 miliwn yna wedi cael ei 'ring-fence-o', ond mae'r £2.3 biliwn—mwy neu lai—mae hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n wahanol.

There's a difference between the £30 million and the £2.3 billion. That £30 million has been ring-fenced, but the £2.3 billion—more or less—that is something separate.

Ie, wrth gwrs. So, mae'r £30 miliwn—. Hwnnw ydy'r arian ychwanegol.

Well, of course. So, the £30 million—. That's the additional money.

Mae hwnnw'n ring-fenced, ac mae'n ychwanegol.

That £30 million is additional funding and that is ring-fenced.

Ac mae hwnnw ar gyfer—. A ydy'r £30 miliwn yn rowlio ymlaen?

And that is for—. Is that £30 million on a rolling basis?

So, mae rhai o'r cynghorau sydd wedi rhoi eu cynlluniau WESPs i mewn yn barod, ac rydych chi wedi'u cytuno nhw, efallai yn mynd i—

So, some of the councils that have already submitted their WESPs, and you've agreed them, are perhaps going to—

Nid ydym ni ddim wedi cytuno'r un WESP eto, na.

We've not agreed a single WESP, as of yet.

Ond y rhai sydd ddim wedi cael eu hanfon yn ôl—a oes yna gyfle i rai o'r rheini ddiwygio yng ngoleuni'r ffaith bod yna fwy o bres rŵan? A ydych chi'n dallt beth sydd gen i? Mae yna rhai sydd yn meddwl bod eu cynlluniau nhw'n barod, a rŵan mae yna bres newydd wedi dod, ac mae o ond am eleni, so mae yna beryg bod yna rai cynghorau a fyddai'n gallu bod bach yn fwy uchelgeisiol o wybod bod yna arian, ac mae o bach yn hwyr yn y dydd iddyn nhw drio gwneud hynny, os ydy'r arian ond am flwyddyn.

But those that haven't been sent back to the authorities—is there an opportunity for these to be amended in light of the fact that there's more funding available now? Do you understand my point? Because there will be some that believe that their WESPs are ready, but now there's additional funding available and it's only available for this year, so there is a possibility that certain councils could be more ambitious, perhaps, in knowing that there is funding available, but it's a little late in the day for them to try and incorporate that, if that funding is available only for 12 months.

Mae'r £30 miliwn yna ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf, ac mae o yna i ysgogi, efallai, y rhai sy'n cael trafferthion neu sydd ddim wedi gwneud ceisiadau cryf. So, mae'r £30 miliwn, fel mae'r Gweinidog wedi ei ddweud, yn ring-fenced, ac mae o i ysgogi mwy o ddarpariaeth Cymraeg ym mhob sir. 

The £30 million is there for next year, and it's to try and encourage those who are having difficulties, or perhaps haven't submitted strong applications. So, as the Minister said, that £30 million is ring-fenced, and it's there to try and encourage more Welsh provision in every county.

Bydd yn rhaid i rai ohonyn nhw ddiwygio eu cynlluniau, felly. 

Some of them will have to amend their plans, then.

Ni fydd rhaid diwygio lot ar cynlluniau hynny.

There won't be a great deal of amendments required.

Ocê, iawn. A jest cyn i mi ddod at stwff Bil y Gymraeg, y berthynas yma rhwng y cynllun gofal 30 awr a'r strategaeth 2050—mae yna adroddiad beirniadol iawn wedi dod allan gan Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg yn dweud nad oes perthynas rhwng y ddau beth. A ydych chi'n edrych ar hynny? A ydy'r berthynas rhwng y ddau gynllun yn gwella?

Just before I come to the Welsh language Bill, this relationship between the 30-hour care and the 2050 strategy—there has been a very critical report published by the Welsh Language Commissioner, saying that there's no dovetailing between the two things. Are you looking at that? Is that interrelationship improving?

Nid ydw i ddim yn derbyn nad oes perthynas. Rydw i wedi bod yn edrych ar bapurau sydd yn ei gwneud hi'n hollol glir bod hwn yn rhan hanfodol bwysig sydd yn gorfod bod yn rhan o sut rŷm ni'n datblygu'r cynllun gofal 30 awr. Felly, nid ydw i ddim yn derbyn hynny. Mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, rydw i wedi cael fy siomi ar yr ochr orau o ran beth sy'n digwydd yn Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae pob peth sy'n dod trwyddo, i bob un, yn gorfod ystyried—. Mae pob penderfyniad yn gorfod ystyried sut mae hwn yn mynd i effeithio ar gyrraedd y targed yna o filiwn o bobl. Nid ydw i ddim wedi gweld unrhyw beth tebyg yn unrhyw le arall. Rydw i'n meddwl ei fod e'n eithaf impressive

I don't accept that there's no relationship there. I've been looking at papers that make it entirely clear that this is a crucial part, which has to be part of how we develop the 30 hours of care scheme. So, I don't accept that. I have to say, I have been very impressed in relation to what's happening in Welsh Government. Everything that's coming through, for everyone—. Every decision that's made has to consider how this is going to affect reaching that target of a million Welsh speakers. I haven't seen anything like it anywhere else. I think it's very impressive.

Wel, mi ddylem ni weld tystiolaeth o hynny maes o law, felly.

Well, we should see evidence of that in due course, I suppose.

Mae o yn digwydd, ydy. Mae hwnnw'n rhan ganolog o'r ystyriaeth.

It is happening, yes, and it is a central part of our considerations. 

Sori, jest—. Felly, beth yw'r rhesymeg? Pam ydych chi'n credu bod y comisiynydd wedi dweud hynny os oes gennych chi farn hollol wahanol?

Sorry, just—. What's the rationale, then? Why do you think the commissioner is saying that, if you have a completely different opinion?

Nid ydw i ddim yn siŵr. Bydd rhaid i fi edrych ar hynny, ond, yn sicr, nid dyna'r dystiolaeth rydw i wedi ei gweld.

I'm not sure. I'll have to look at that, but certainly that's not the evidence that I've seen.

I droi at Fil y Gymraeg, enw'r Papur Gwyn oedd 'Taro'r cydbwysedd iawn'. A ydych chi'n meddwl, ar hyn o bryd, bod y cydbwysedd yn gywir o ran y drafodaeth gyhoeddus? Hynny yw, mae lot o drafod am Fil y Gymraeg, ac rydym ni wedi cael y drafodaeth yma am yr ombwdsmon, ac rydw i'n croesawu'ch cyhoeddiad chi heddiw. Mae'r drafodaeth yna, rŵan—gallem ni stopio cael y drafodaeth yna. Ond mae yna lot o drafod yn mynd ymlaen o hyd ynglŷn â rôl Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, a pha fath o gorff newydd sydd eisiau. Oni fyddai'n well peidio â dod â Bil y Gymraeg newydd i mewn, anghofio am hwnnw am y tro, a chanolbwyntio ar y strategaeth? Achos yn y pen draw, y strategaeth sydd yn hollbwysig. Wrth gwrs, mae gan y ddeddfwriaeth a rheoleiddio rhan i'w chwarae, ond mewn ffordd, a ddylai'r ffocws fod ar y strategaeth ar hyn o bryd?

If we can turn now, then, to the Welsh language Bill, the name of the White Paper was 'Striking the right balance'. Do you think, at the moment, that that balance is correct in relation to the public discussion around this? A lot of this discussion has happened about the Bill for the Welsh language, and we've had a discussion about the ombudsman, and I welcome your announcement today. We can stop that discussion now. But there has been a lot of discussion, and it's still happening, about the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner and what type of new body is needed. Wouldn't it be better to not bring forward the new Welsh Bill for the time being, and look at the strategy and concentrate on that? Because, really, the strategy is what's crucial, isn't it? Of course, the legislation and regulation has a part to play, but surely, shouldn't the focus be on the strategy?

Rydw i'n cytuno. Mae'n rhaid i'r strategaeth o gael miliwn o siaradwyr fod yn flaenoriaeth i ni, ond pwynt y Papur Gwyn yw i sicrhau bod y ddeddfwriaeth mewn lle i ddiogelu'r strategaeth honno. Felly, y strategaeth yw'r ysgogiad i ni o ran pan rŷm ni angen y Papur Gwyn. Fe fyddwn ni'n dod mas gydag ymatebion i'r ymgynghoriad erbyn diwedd y mis, so bydd syniad gyda chi, wedyn, o sut mae pobl wedi ymateb i'r ymgynghoriad.

I agree. The strategy of a million Welsh speakers has to be our priority, but the point of the White Paper is to ensure that the legislation is in place to safeguard that strategy. So, the strategy is the driver for us, in terms of why we need that White Paper, and we will be publishing the responses to the consultation by the end of the month, so you will then have an idea of how people have responded to the consultation. 

Mae'r busnes yma o daro'r cydbwysedd iawn rhwng hyrwyddo a sicrhau bod rheoleiddio yn y lle iawn—rwy'n meddwl bod hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n werth ei drafod. I raddau, beth sy'n bwysig i fi yw ein bod ni'n dod at bwynt lle rŷm ni'n gweld cynnydd yn y defnydd o'r Gymraeg. Mae yna ddadl i gael ynghylch a yw defnyddio ffon yn fwy o bwysau. Rydw i'n meddwl bod y safonau, er enghraifft, wedi trawsnewid, mewn llywodraeth leol er enghraifft, y ddarpariaeth sydd ar gael. Er, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, rwy'n meddwl bod y safonau yn gymhleth tu hwnt. Byddwn i'n sicr ddim wedi dechrau o fan hyn petawn i'n ail-greu’r system. Ond, nid wyf i'n meddwl y byddai'n gwneud synnwyr i ni rwygo'r holl beth i fyny, achos rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi gweld llwyddiant. Y cwestiwn yw, i ba raddau y dylem ni really roi pwyslais yn y dyfodol ar hyrwyddo o gymharu â defnyddio ffon. Dyna yw'r drafodaeth rŷm ni'n dal i'w chael.

This business of striking the right balance between promotion and regulation—I do think that's something that is worthy of discussion. To a certain extent, what's important for me is that we do get to a point where we see an increase in the use of the Welsh language. There is an argument to be had about whether using the stick is more effective. I do think that the standards, for example, have transformed, in local government for example, the provision available. Although, I do have to say that I think the standards are exceptionally complex. I certainly wouldn't start from this starting point if I were to redesign the system. But, I don't think that it would be sensible for us to tear it all up, because I do think that we have seen successes emerging from the system. But the question is to what extent we should really put the emphasis in future on promotion as compared to using the stick of regulation. That is the debate that is ongoing.

11:30

A ydych chi wedi gwneud penderfyniad bod Bil y Gymraeg yn mynd i ddod?

Have you made a decision that a Welsh language Bill is going to happen?

Ydym. Fe fydd Bil y Gymraeg yn cael ei gyflwyno, bydd.

Yes. There will be a Welsh language Bill tabled.

Ocê. O ran cynnwys hynny, nid ydych chi’n mynd i ddechrau datgelu hynny heddiw, yn amlwg.

Okay, but you're not going to talk about the content yet.

Nid heddiw, ond yn y dyfodol agos iawn.

Not today, but in the very near future we will.

A fedrwch chi roi amserlen fwy penodol na hynny?

Can you give us a more specific timetable on that?

Wel, mae yna gwpwl o bethau, er enghraifft, jest o ran amseru—rwy'n gobeithio dod mas â safonau iechyd yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf. Mae ysgrifennu deddfwriaeth yn really cymhleth. Mae'n really cymhleth. Mae'n rhaid i chi sicrhau—

Well, there are a few things, just in terms of timelines—I intend to publish the health standards in the next few weeks. Drafting legislation is very, very complex. It's really complex. You do have to ensure—

Dyna un rheswm pam rwy'n gofyn a oes ei angen. Ond, dyna fo—rydych chi wedi penderfynu bod angen deddfwriaeth newydd.

That's why I'm asking whether it's necessary. But, there we are—you've decided that it is necessary.

Mae ei angen e. Rydw i'n meddwl bod ei angen er mwyn i ni gyrraedd y strategaeth yna o gael 1 filiwn o bobl. Ond beth nad wyf i eisiau yw bod gyda ni fudiadau sydd, er enghraifft, eisiau gwneud lot fwy i helpu'r iaith ond actually mae'n really anodd iddyn nhw achos maen nhw'n ffaelu cael pobl i ymgeisio am swyddi ac ati—so, lle mae yna ewyllys da ond, actually, nid yw'r bobl allan yna i gyflawni'r pwrpas.

It is necessary, yes. I do think it's necessary so that we can deliver this strategy of 1 million Welsh speakers. But what I don't want to see is that we have organisations, for example, that want to do a great deal more to help the Welsh language but, actaully, it's very difficult for them because they can't get people to apply for posts with them and so on—so, where there is goodwill but, actually, the people simply aren't out there to deliver.

I droi at y safonau iechyd, felly, sef y rhai rydych chi ar fin eu cyhoeddi, rwy'n falch iawn o glywed hynny. So, mae hynny yn mynd i ddigwydd.

Turning, therefore, to the health standards that you are about to publish, I believe, I am very glad to hear that. So, that is going to happen.

Ydy, yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf.

Yes, during the next few weeks.

Yn eich papur i ni, rydych chi'n dweud ei bod yn bwysig fod unrhyw safonau sy'n cael eu paratoi o hyn ymlaen—sef ar ôl y rhai iechyd, rwy'n cymryd—yn cyd-fynd â pholisi'r ddeddfwriaeth newydd. Rŵan, oni fydd hynny'n arafu'r broses i lawr hyd yn oed yn waeth? Rydym ni wedi bod yn disgwyl a disgwyl am safonau ym maes tai, trafnidiaeth a thelathrebu. Mae yna rai o'r rheini wedi bod ar ddesg y Llywodraeth ers dwy flynedd. A ydym ni'n mynd i weld hyd yn oed mwy o oedi rŵan efo cyflwyno mwy o safonau?

In your paper to us, you say that it's important that any standards prepared from now on—after the health ones, I assume—should certainly align with the policy of the new legislation. Now, isn't that going to slow down the process even more? We've been waiting and waiting for standards in housing, transport and telecommunications. Some of these have been on the Government's desk for two years. Are we going to see further delay now with the introduction of further standards?

Wel, nid wyf i'n meddwl bod pwynt cyflwyno safonau os yw'r system yn mynd i newid. Ond nid ydym ni'n siŵr i ba raddau mae'r system yn mynd i newid. Beth sy'n bwysig yw nad yw'r system sydd yna'n bresennol yn wahanol iawn i sut fydd y system yn y dyfodol yn edrych. Felly, rwy'n meddwl ei bod hi'n gwneud synnwyr i ni gyhoeddi'r safonau iechyd—achos rŷm ni wedi addo gwneud hynny—ac wedyn ein bod ni'n canolbwyntio ar Bapur Gwyn a dweud sut rŷm ni'n gweld y ddeddfwriaeth yn edrych a sut mae'r safonau'n debygol o weithio yn y dyfodol, ac wedyn byddwn ni'n mynd ymlaen. Felly, fe fydd e'n cymryd mwy o amser achos bod y Bil yn dod ymlaen, bydd, ond rwy'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni'n cael y fframwaith mewn lle cyn gynted ag y gallwn.

Well, I don't think there's any point in bringing standards forward if the system's going to change. But, we're not sure to what extent that system's going to change. What's important is that the system that's already in place isn't too different to the future system. So, I do think that it makes sense for us to publish the health standards—because we've pledged to do so—and then that we focus on the White Paper and say how we see that legislation developing and how standards are likely to work in future, and then we will proceed. So, it will take longer because the Bill is being brought forward, yes, that's true, but I do think it's important that we get the correct framework in place as soon as possible.

Ond rydych chi yn gweld gosod safonau a chynnal y gyfundrefn o gael safonau yn bwysig i'r dyfodol.

But you do see setting standards and maintaining the standards regime as important for the future.

Wel, fel rydw i'n dweud, rydw i'n meddwl ei fod e wedi gweithio. Rydw i'n meddwl ei fod e wedi gweithio. Felly, fyddai rhwygo'r system i fyny ddim yn gwneud synnwyr, ond mae yn gymhleth.

Well, as I say, I think it has worked. I think it has worked. Therefore, tearing the system up would make no sense, but it is complex.

Ond, a ydych chi'n meddwl eu bod nhw'n gwneud—. Maen nhw'n cadarnhau hawliau siaradwyr Cymraeg, y safonau, onid ydyn? A ydyn nhw'n gwneud mwy na hynny?

But, do you think that they do—. They confirm the rights of Welsh speakers, the standards, don't they? Do they do more than that?

11:35

Mae hawliau yn bwysig. Rydw i'n meddwl bod hawliau yn bwysig, ond beth wnes i ei ffeindio'n anodd, wrth edrych trwy'r pethau yma mewn manylder yw, actually, mae e'n really galed i weld ble mae eich hawliau chi, achos mae eich hawliau chi yn wahanol, yn dibynnu ar ble rŷch chi yn y wlad, achos y busnes yma. Felly, byddwn i'n lico gweld symleiddio o ran sut mae ein dealltwriaeth ni o hawliau—sut mae hynny'n gweithio yn y dyfodol. Mae hynny'n really gymhleth, so dyna beth rydym ni'n edrych arno ar hyn o bryd.

Rights are important. I do think that rights are important, but what I found difficult in looking at this in detail is that it's really difficult to see where your rights sit, because your rights are different depending on where you are geographically and so on. So, I would like to see a simplification in terms of our understanding of rights and how that's going to work for the future. That is exceptionally complex and so that's what we're looking at at the moment. 

A allaf i jest gofyn cwestiwn ynglŷn â'r safonau? Nid ydw i cweit yn deall eich meddylfryd ar hyn, achos rydych chi'n dweud bod y safonau yn gymhleth ond, eto i gyd, wedyn, rydych chi'n dweud nad oes bwriad i newid y system. Felly, beth yw'r broblem gyda dechrau safonau yn y sectorau eraill os nad ydych chi'n bwriadu sgrapio'r safonau ynddyn nhw eu hunain? Pam ddim, felly, parhau â'r gwaith hynny tra bod y Bil yn datblygu?

Can I just ask a question about the standards? I don't quite understand your mindset there. You say they are complex, but then you're also saying that there's no intention to change the system. So, what's the problem with maybe establishing standards in other sectors if you're not intending on scrapping the standards in themselves? Why not just continue with that work while that Bill is developed?

Achos beth rydw i'n gobeithio yw y byddwn ni'n symleiddio'r system mewn rhyw ffordd. Mae'r system yn gymhleth.

Because what I do hope to do is to simplify the system in some way. The system is complex.

So, rydych chi yn bwriadu newid y safonau.

You are intending on changing them, then.

Symleiddio'r ffordd rŷm ni'n cyrraedd y nod yna.

To simplify the way in which we reach that point.

Felly, petaech chi'n cyflwyno safonau, fydden nhw ddim yn cyd-fynd â'r hyn y byddai'r Bil yn ei ddweud, ac felly y byddai'n anodd wedyn—

So, if you were to present standards, they wouldn't align with what the Bill says, so it would be difficult, then—

Ie. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau, gyda'r rhai sydd eisoes wedi pasio, fod yna gysondeb. So, mae'n eithaf cymhleth, ond mae rhan ohono fe o ran datblygu'r safonau. 

Well, yes, but we must also ensure that those that have already passed are consistent with the new system. So it's quite complex, but part of it is about developing standards.

Faint o bobl yn y Llywodraeth sydd yn gweithio ar reoliadau'n ymwneud â'r safonau?

How many people in the Government are working on regulations relating to the standards?

Oh my God—loads, rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i wedi cwrdd ag eithaf lot ohonyn nhw.

Oh, I think there are loads. I've met quite a few of them.

Nid yw hi'n llawer yn ôl—. Mae yna rai yn honni bod y fiwrocratiaeth yn arafu pethau, ond mae'r faith nad oes yna ddigon o bobl yn gweithio ar ochr y Llywodraeth ar baratoi'r rheoliadau hefyd yn broblem ac yn rhwystr a dyna pam yr ydym ni wedi gweld yr arafwch yn y system.

It's not long since—. Some people would say that the bureaucracy slows things down. but the fact that there aren't enough people working in Government on preparing those regulations is also a problem and a barrier, and that's why we've seen the slowing down in the system.

Wel, rydw i wedi cwrdd ag eithaf lot sy'n gwybod ei onions nhw ar y mater yma. Ond mae'r mater o sut mae staffio yn gweithredu a phwy sy'n gwneud beth yn fater i'r Permanent Secretary, o beth rydw i'n deall.

Well, I've met quite a few people who know their onions on these issues. But the issue of how staffing works and who does what is a matter for the Permanent Secretary, from what I understand.

Reit. Ocê, wel, efallai ei fod o'n gwestiwn i ni ei ofyn. A allwn ni, fel pwyllgor, ofyn y cwestiwn yna o ran faint o swyddi sydd yna yn gweithio ar baratoi'r rheoliadau?

Thank you. Well, maybe that's a question for us to ask. Maybe we as a committee could be asking that question of how many posts relate to the preparation of regulations.

Rydw i wedi colli trywydd lle roeddwn i'n mynd, rŵan. Felly, mi fydd yna Fil y Gymraeg yn dod ymlaen, ac mi fydd yna arafu ar y broses o gyflwyno safonau. Bydd y safonau iechyd yn digwydd. A gaf i jest gofyn am y safonau iechyd, i gloi? A fyddan nhw'n cynnwys darpariaeth ar gyfer meddygon teulu? Mae yna ddadl yn mynd ymlaen, onid oes e? Mae yna rai pobl yn credu y dylai meddygfeydd a meddygon teulu gael eu cynnwys yn y rheoliadau.

Sorry, I've lost track of where we were going now. So, there will be a Welsh language Bill and there will be some delay in the process of standards. The health standards will be happening. Regarding those health standards, will they include provision for GPs? I think there is a bit of an argument at the moment, isn't there? Some people feel that GP surgeries and GPs should be included in those regulations.

Nid ydw i eisiau cyhoeddi yma, ond os gallaf i jest dweud ei fod e'n eithaf cymhleth. Mae'n really gymhleth o achos bod meddygon teulu yn self-employed, so mae e'n eithaf cymhleth.

I don't want to make any announcements here, this morning, but if I could just say that it is quite complex. It's very complex because GPs are self-employed, so it is quite complex.

Ond maen nhw ar gytundeb i fwrdd iechyd, ac mi fyddai modd i fwrdd iechyd ofyn—

But they are under contract with a health board, and the health board would be able to—