Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Yn ôl i Chwilio

Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol

Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee


Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Dai Lloyd AC
David Melding AC
Mick Antoniw AC Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Alys Thomas Ymchwilydd
Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Tanwen Summers Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rhain yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 14:30.

The meeting began at 14:30.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Good afternoon. Welcome to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. Item 1: apologies and declarations of interest. I understand we have one apology from Nathan Gill, so we note that. I note that I've omitted the introductory matters. In the event of a fire alarm, Members should leave the room by the marked fire exits and follow instructions from ushers and staff. No tests forecast for today. All mobile devices are to be switched to silent mode. The National Assembly for Wales operates through the medium of Welsh and English languages. Headphones are provided. Do not touch any buttons on the microphone as this can disable the system. Interpretation is available on channel 1, verbatim on channel 2. 

2. Offerynnau sy’n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i'r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
2. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Assembly under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

So, back onto the agenda now, item 2 is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Assembly under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. An affirmative resolution instrument on which this committee, I believe, has reported previously: the Council Tax Reduction Schemes (Prescribed Requirements and Default Scheme) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2018. I'll perhaps ask the lawyers for comment.

Just briefly to say that the council tax reduction scheme legislation is notoriously detailed and intricate, and we just want to say how helpful the explanatory memorandum and explanatory note were in helping us scrutinise this legislation.

I certainly think it's good to commend best practice, because we do carp on a lot when things are not done properly. So, I think it's good to say when they have been done well.

I thought it was very, very clear. Okay. No other comments? No. 

3. Is-ddeddfwriaeth yn ddarostyngedig i ddim gweithdrefn
3. Subordinate legislation subject to no procedure

In which case, we move on to item 3, which is subordinate legislation subject to no procedure: the National Assembly for Wales (Returning Officers' Charges) (Amendment) Order 2017, which I thought was of some interest. There are regulations and a report before the Members. Any comments from the lawyers?

We just thought it was an interesting Order that wouldn't usually be brought to the attention of a committee of the Assembly, as there is no procedure and there's no requirement for it to be laid before the Assembly either. So, we provided a short report for the committee.

It's interesting to at least have these figures and statistics on record. It's something I've never seen before.

4. Papurau i’w nodi
4. Papers to note

The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill 2017: letter from the chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee to the Chair, dated 21 September 2017, which I understand was slightly delayed because it was misaddressed. This was the letter suggesting closer co-operation and so on. Are there any comments on this? Is it agreed that we fix up a meeting? Are there some plans to try and meet?

Well, it's reassuring that they know where are now, then. What happened to the letter?

I think it went to the previous Chair's constituency address as opposed to here, and, inevitably, took a while to get here. An unusual mistake to make, but there we are—we are where we are. The request is to suggest meeting with Bernard Jenkin of late Question Time fame.

Is everyone happy with that? I think I'm due to be down in Westminster at a meeting, aren't I? So, we can arrange that. I've no problem if someone else is keen to attend as well.

The next meeting of the Interparliamentary Forum on Brexit is scheduled for 18 January in the House of Lords, so we were hoping to organise something within the margins of that.

So, if it's possible and it's useful to have that meeting, have that discussion, see where that leads, at a particularly interesting period of time in mid January. So, if anyone is interested—

Well, I'll be on another meeting. I'll try and wangle out of the one that I'm not chairing—always makes it easier.

Yes. Okay, so we note that for the moment. 

On to the next item, which is a letter from the Llywydd to the chair of the House of Commons Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee of 28 November 2017, and you have the letter before you. Maybe this is a matter we might want to refer to in private session.


Item 4.3, on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, is a letter from Robin Walker MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, to the Chair of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, dated 4 December 2017. You've seen the letter and the response that was given. Again, this is a matter perhaps we'll discuss in private session later on. 

Okay. On to item 4.4, which is the Wales Act 2017 (Commencement No.4 Regulations) 2017. This is for information, but I think you'd raised matters on this previously, David, hadn't you, about the commencement dates in relation to energy and—?

And we've had an answer to that as well, I understand. Is that right? Yes, okay. So, that's really just to be noted, unless there are any comments on it. 

Item 4.5 is the response to consultation on proposals to develop an Act on the interpretation of Welsh legislation. So, we note the written statement from the Counsel General in relation to the consultation, and the summary of the consultation responses. So, it will be something to review in due course. Can I just make a comment on this though? This is a particularly technical piece of legislation. It seems to me it is one that is appropriate to probably be scrutinised by this committee. Do we have any view or any indication as to whether this is legislation that will be allocated to this committee?

Not as yet. It will depend on when it was brought forward for introduction, and then it would be a matter for the Business Committee to make a decision on where that legislation—

Not as far as I'm aware, no. 

Can I just suggest that maybe what we ought to do is make a representation to that and say that that's legislation that should be before this committee, unless anyone disagrees?

I'm not aware there is a formal timescale. It may well be that it's likely to be the early part of next year. 

It's reasonable, I think, because it wouldn't fall under any other committee, would it?

5. Ymchwiliad i'r pwerau ym Mil yr Undeb Ewropeaidd (Ymadael) i wneud is-ddeddfwriaeth: Ymatebion i'r ymgynghoriad
5. Inquiry into the powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill to make subordinate legislation: Consultation responses

Okay, we move on to item 5, which is the inquiry into the powers in the EU withdrawal Bill to make subordinate legislation and the consultation responses. You've seen the responses, some of which I thought were quite good. Shall we again defer this to have a discussion at the end of the meeting?

6. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod
6. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting


bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Item 6 is a motion under Standing Order No. 17.42 to resolve to meet in private. Does anyone move? 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 14:38.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 14:38.

Dysgu am Senedd Cymru