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<p>The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.</p>
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<p>The meeting began at 9:31.</p>
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190213-1
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. item 1: introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I'd like to welcome Jayne Bryant to her first meeting as an official member of the committee, and we also welcome Carwyn Jones who is substituting for Mick Antoniw. Siân Gwenllian is substituting for Dai Lloyd for half of the first session of the committee, and Caroline Jones has apologised. We won't be waiting for other Members; we'll continue as things are. Does anybody have anything to declare in this session? No. Great. </p>
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190213-2
2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Moving on, therefore, to item 2—supporting and promoting the Welsh language: an inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context, and welcome to Eluned Morgan, AM, Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language; Bethan Webb, deputy director of Welsh language; and Jeremy Evas, head of Welsh language promotion. Thank you for attending this morning. Certainly, you will understand now, having come into the committee on a number of occasions, that we ask questions on different themes, and I will start with the first question. Can you explain to us why you have changed your mind in terms of introducing a new Act in relation to the Welsh language? Can you provide us with an explanation for why you've done that, and on what basis, what evidence, and the context of that decision? Thank you. </p>
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190213-2
2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Clearly, we had the White Paper, and there was a broad consultation on that White Paper. We've also been following what stakeholders have been telling you as part of your inquiry as a committee. And it became apparent to us that there wasn't unanimity on the way forward, so we started to consider the possibilities of delivering what we wanted to achieve within the current regime. Of course, the legislative pressures because of Brexit haven't helped either. But I do think that it is possible within the current system for us to reach those objectives of a million Welsh speakers. So, we are enhancing the possibilities already available to us. </p>
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190213-2
2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>So, the main reasoning, if I've understood correctly, to move completely from a new Act is what's been coming in front of this committee, and also Brexit pressure. Is Brexit pressure something that has an impact on your portfolio specifically, because there is a Minister for Brexit? </p>
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190213-2
2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>No, it's the legislative pressures within the broader system but, more than anything, I think it's the fact that stakeholders had made it clear that we can go a very long way with the legislation that we currently have. </p>
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190213-2
2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>But you have to understand that that is quite a significant change from your perspective, as you have been here before quite strong in your opinion that there is a need for a new Act. It has surprised many people that you have changed your view in a matter of months. </p>
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190213-2
2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>What I've been doing is having discussions with the commissioner in order to review what is available within the current system, and to push the boundaries of that system, for example, the fact that promotion of the language is one of the priorities of the commissioner, but also in terms of simplifying the legislation in relation to standards. That was something that I was very eager to do. I think that everyone understands that it's crucial that we do seek to simplify the regulatory system, but that it's possible to do that within the current legislation. And we've asked for legal advice in order to ensure that we push the boundaries available to the commissioner at the moment. And we have been discussing that with the commissioner, and have been in correspondence with her, and have sought legal advice, which underlines the fact that she could perhaps move more swiftly in ensuring that the system is streamlined and that matters are dealt with swiftly, rather than things taking months and months, as is currently the case.</p>
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190213-2
2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Members will have questions on this issue, but I wanted to ask—we've had e-mails in the past few days saying that some of your evidence looks as if you would force the commissioner to operate in a way that you shouldn't be placing pressure on them. For example, there are terms—for example, that you would perhaps give them more of a budget if they placed more emphasis on promotion work, that they would have a governing body to support the commissioner. Do you think that it's your role to provide those terms, on the basis of an additional budget? If they don't do these things that are in the paper that you've provided to us, what will happen, for example?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I have to underline the fact that I understand that the commissioner is independent, and it's crucial that the commissioner retains that independence, certainly in terms of regulation.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>But you use the word 'conditions' in the paper. That doesn't sound particularly independent.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>May I finish? In terms of regulation, I think that's crucially important. In terms of promotion, the main point that I was making in the White Paper was that we needed to change the emphasis, so that it is on promotion. And that is the main aim of the Measure, namely that the commissioner needs to be involved with promotion. And we believe, and we still believe, that the emphasis at the moment is too biased towards regulation, at the expense of resources that could be being invested into promotion. And what we want to see is a better balance struck. And of course there will be some discussions with the commissioner. Much of this work—because we were concerned that that work wasn't being done by the commissioner, then that work is being undertaken by the Government. Now, I don't necessarily think that the Government is the right body to do some of that work, and I would like to transfer some of those responsibilities to the commissioner, but we have to be more confident that that emphasis would change.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>But they would argue that that is reliant on having a sufficient budget to do so. So, why are you putting this condition on them to operate in a way that you decide? If there is a need to make regulations, then somebody independent, such as the commissioner, should be able to decide on whether they are working on those regulations, or whether they should be promoting or not.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, you will also see from our paper that one of the problems we have is that we have standards in place, and we have regulations. But the problem is that the use of the Welsh language, once we impose standards, is very low, and what we want to see is the commissioner doing a lot more work, not simply policing the matters, but also assisting these bodies and organisations to ensure that the use of the Welsh language increases. And we're of the view that more work could be done in that area.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. Siân Gwenllian.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Good morning. I notice in your evidence that you note that the core of these proposals is the desire to simplify the system, and I think everybody would agree with that. It's become clear by now that there is no need for legislation to do that, so there was no need for legislation for moving in that direction. And then the second part was establishing appropriate structures for achieving Cymraeg 2050. And I think that the stakeholders who've responded negatively to the White Paper still feel that there is a need for a suitable structure for promoting the Welsh language, but that what was in the White Paper was not the best way to move forward, because that was going to weaken the functions of the Welsh Language Commissioner and the standards and so forth. And we're pleased to see that that is going to continue. However, at this point, isn't the argument about establishing some sort of suitable structure for the promotion work, rather than giving it to the commissioner, still a valid argument: another structure, not just to do the promotional work, but also to do the language planning work—an agency or whatever—which really was the basis of this £5 million agreed between Plaid Cymru and the Government two years ago? That was the discussion at the time. All of that has gone for a while—okay; we are where we are. Is there an opportunity now to have that wider discussion or—? You, clearly, feel that moving things to the commissioner's office is the best way forward.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, there are two main points there. The first is that I do think that we need to ensure that we look at language planning in its entirety and we've already started to have discussions with the partnership council and I have asked my officials to come up with some ideas on the way forward in terms of language planning. We will have to look at where that would sit most comfortably, because I think there's an argument that that should be within Government, because there is more access to education, for example—we hold more of the levers within Government in that sense. But I am quite happy to listen to other views, if there are other views on the issue. But I don't think it would be a good idea to have an additional, separate agency. I think that muddies the waters. </p>
<p>It is already difficult for people, I think, to understand that you have the Government and the commissioner. So, when the rail companies don't use the Welsh language, who would they contact? I think if you also had an agency that would muddy the waters further. So, we won't go down the route of having a separate agency for promotional work, but we will now be discussing further where exactly promotion and marketing should sit. There are certain aspects of promotion that will have to remain in Government, but there are others that I think it would make much more sense to transfer them to the commissioner, if that were possible and if we had the confidence that those people wouldn't be sucked into regulation. So, I think there is a possibility of going down that route.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>But don't you accept that giving elements of language planning—retaining those elements within the Government in a small unit, and then moving some elements of promotion to the commissioner—? Wouldn't that cause confusion? At the moment, for the public, it is quite clear: if you have a problem regarding your rights as Welsh speakers, you know that you go to the commissioner. It's completely clear; I don't think there's any confusion regarding that. But then there is confusion about all the other important work that needs to be done: the language planning, the strategic work. If you're going to give a little bit of that to the commissioner and keep the rest within the Government—that is, it's not clear at the moment in what direction you're going to go.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>And what I've asked for now is a paper to look at the options in terms of language planning and where that should best sit. So, we will be discussing with the partnership council where the most appropriate place for that is, but I'm of the view at the moment that many of the levers for language planning are held by Government, and so perhaps we will see some sort of system within Government that will look at the issue on a cross-cutting basis. But these are the early days, and I've asked for a paper on it.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Okay. Isn't it too early to say, therefore, that you want to move some elements that are in the Government now to the commissioner? Wouldn't it be better to see what this paper argues in terms of the language planning and the promotion work—all the big work around the strategy? It would appear as if you’ve made a decision to move part of that work to the commissioner already, before seeing the evidence.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>No. I’ve made no decisions on which parts. I do think there are certain areas where the Government works well, such as policy and so on. There are practical issues on the ground that I think would work better outwith Government. So, we will be looking at those elements. But I want to see, and I want to be confident, that that would happen if we were to shift the responsibility to the commissioner.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>But you’re not closing the door on that discussion. I’m glad to hear that.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>I’m closing the door on the discussion on a separate, external agency, a new agency; I’m certainly closing the door on that.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Okay.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay? Right. David Melding.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Alun Davies is now able to speak with perhaps greater freedom—</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>I know; I've noticed.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>—than he had hitherto. And he said on, I think it was, <em>Sunday Supplement</em>, that the reason a new Act was required is the current legislation has produced a very top-heavy bureaucratic system, which has created a bureaucratic industry but not really supported the language. Now, that’s a very emphatic judgment. So, why have you formed the judgment that either he's completely wrong or the impediments that are in legislation at the moment can be reformed?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>I think Alun’s actually right in terms of the complexity of the current system. There are not many people who don’t agree that the complexity of the standards system—. I remember, when I first tried to get to grips with this, I sent 10 pages of questions to these guys just to try and understand. Now, that is not a good, simple structure, and I do think there are opportunities for us to simplify the process. So, we’ve started doing that anyway. So, if you look at the health standards, we’ve reduced the number to about 121 without reducing, actually, the need to change the functionality of what we're trying to achieve there.</p>
<p>So, it is possible to simplify, but I think the method of ensuring that people comply with the rules, I think that is where there is a heavy—where the commissioner at the moment really takes a long time to try and produce results, in particular if you look at the speed with which, for example, the ombudsman is able to resolve situations. So, I think there is a lot the commissioner can do to speed things up, and I think that the legal <em>barn</em>—what's <em>barn</em>—the legal—</p>
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Webb, Bethan
<p>Opinion.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>—opinion that we’ve had has given her, I hope, a bit of confidence that, actually, she can move quicker with some of the resolutions.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>So, we’ve heard that the heart of the matter is that it’s bureaucratic, basically because we have a complaints system that's like no other. It can’t be resolved within—you know, let’s take county councils as the best example. They can’t resolve it within their own complaints process; it involves the commissioner. Now, I sense you’re hinting that that’s the bureaucratic complexity, but that can’t be changed without primary legislation. So, why have you come to this judgment that it is too bureaucratic, but the thing that makes it most bureaucratic we're going to have to leave in statute and not be able to change it?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Because I have since had a discussion with the commissioner about how far we can push within the current framework, and your example of a county council, for example—we think there is a possibility that, actually, it would be possible for the commissioner to say, ‘You need to try and resolve this internally before you come to me’. So, it happens in lots of other spheres. The ombudsman has that system. We think that the tribunal’s suggestions, recommendations, in the past suggest that, actually, they could go much, much further in terms of speeding up the system.</p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>I mean, what you've described is certainly the standard model and the optimum one, I would have thought, in nearly all instances, but it's not the statutory basis in the current legislation, as far as I read it. I think it'll be interesting because we're actually doing post-legislative scrutiny of the 2011 Measure, and we should remember that. It's something that we could reasonably look at. I don't particularly want a ding-dong argument about whether you're right or it can be done, but it's an interesting question and needs our examination as well, I think. </p>
<p>You can look at this two ways. You've decided to pull the legislation after the consultation responses you've had so far to the White Paper. I think it's fair to say the balance of our evidence was cautious on whether we needed a new Act. I don't particularly want a Government that's so obdurate that they won't respond to evidence. I suppose a White Paper is fairly advanced in the process, so I just wonder what the costs have been in terms of developing your legislative proposals and the White Paper? Is some of that going to be recycled into other policy development or have we seen a fair amount of money being wasted in this decision initially to have a new Act and then to move in a different direction?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
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Morgan, Eluned
<p>I don't think that it's been a waste of money, in the sense that I think we've had a very comprehensive debate in the country and I think there is agreement now that actually we do need to work more towards encouraging the use of Welsh rather than on regulations. There seems to be, and my understanding is, from the evidence you've had in this committee, that that is something that people do agree on. So, I don't think it's been a waste, because I don't think we'd have moved much further on without that debate, so I don't accept that it's been a waste. Certainly, politically, I think we've moved the agenda forward quite significantly as a result of the White Paper. Perhaps I can ask Bethan to talk a little bit about the resources.</p>
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>The resources: we had four members of staff working both on the standards and the Bill, so it wasn't resource heavy. And all that policy, as the Minister says, is part of the strategic picture in terms of Cymraeg 2050. And a lot of the findings, when we were doing the policy work, have fed into other fields as well. Since the White Paper, from a personal perspective, we have worked much closer with the Welsh Language Commissioner's office, especially on certain aspects. Of course, not the regulatory side, but Cymraeg Byd Busnes, which my division leads on, has worked really effectively with the four business officers in the Welsh Language Commissioner's office. So, it has opened the doors to other possibilities, as the Minister has already stated. </p>
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Eluned Morgan
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Morgan, Eluned
<p>Just the other thing on standards, we will now pick up the standards for other—</p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>[<em>Inaudible</em>.]—thank you, Chair. </p>
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Eluned Morgan
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Morgan, Eluned
<p>Okay.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Thank you. I just want to continue broadly with what David was saying in terms of legislation. Just to confirm on the record, was there a specific timetable within the legislative time frame for this? Because when I've asked in the past, I haven't had a clear timescale, but according to the former Minister, Alun Davies—he said there was a legislative timetable. So, are you going to use that slot for you? That is, are you going to bring other legislation in your portfolio, or will that slot go to something else within the Government? Just for us to confirm.</p>
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Eluned Morgan
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Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, Brexit has thrown everything up into the air. Nobody knows exactly what the legislative programme will look like. So, we have to be cautious, but what we will do is to proceed with some of the standards for the other organisations that we had in mind, so—</p>
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Bethan Sayed
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Sayed, Bethan
<p>So, every part of Government's legislation is being affected as a result of Brexit.</p>
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Eluned Morgan
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Morgan, Eluned
<p>Without a doubt. We don't know what the situation is at the moment, so it's difficult for me to say with certainty that we will be retaining that slot, because I don't think that anyone in Government at the moment can be entirely clear as to how Brexit will impact the legislative programme.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
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Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. Vikki Howells. </p>
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Vikki Howells
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107
Howells, Vikki
<p>Thank you, Chair. Minister, you've been consistent, both in you evidence here this morning and in the wider sphere, about the importance of promoting the language. Now, that's a lot easier to do in the public sector than the private sector. So, I just wondered if you could expand for us—. I know in your statement you've noted that you're going to continue to consult closely with private bodies, such as banks and supermarkets, to try and get them to provide more services more consistently in Welsh. Just how difficult is that? And can you expand for us on the work that you're doing there? </p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>The responsibility for the banks and supermarkets in particular is with the Welsh Language Commissioner. So, I've corresponded with her, and asked what steps are happening. She's having a meeting in London soon, because part of the problem is that actually the banks and supermarkets are run generally from London, and to try and get them to understand the sensitivity is very difficult, and the people who are in Wales are not the people who can make the decisions on some of these issues. So, I think that's a very sensible move, and that will be happening I think within the next month or so.</p>
<p>There has been a lot of movement by some supermarkets. I'm a big believer that, actually, a lot of this we can do with the nudge approach. So, ironically, the best companies are actually the foreign companies that have come to Wales. You think about Aldi and Lidl—their policies on the Welsh language are much better than some others. So, I think we've got to encourage, praise and thank, where that's possible.</p>
<p>The banks—one of the issues with the banks is that actually, today, people use technology to access banks. So, one of the things that we're working on is how we can help with developing technology that uses the Welsh language, and Jeremy is an expert in this. Would you like to say a few words? </p>
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Dr Jeremy Evas
Evas, Dr Jeremy
<p>Well, lots of bank systems are based on legacy systems, which are very hard to change. So, with a product refresh cycle, if something new comes it's much easier to put things in than retrofit stuff to old systems. Voice banking—banking by voice—we're working to create speech synthesis, speech recognition components, which we can give free of charge to anyone who wants to use them, really. We're building the infrastructural blocks that these companies can use. </p>
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Vikki Howells
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107
Howells, Vikki
<p>That's very interesting, thank you. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
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Sayed, Bethan
<p>Siân Gwenllian. </p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>If the nudge approach doesn't work, will you consider perhaps that there will be a need to bring in new legislation specifically regarding the private sector—for the future?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Part of the problem with not having a Bill is that we lose the opportunity to do that in terms of the banks and supermarkets. So, the withdrawal of the Bill has created that problem. </p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>But there is a way of getting a much simpler Bill just in that regard.</p>
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Eluned Morgan
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Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I don't want to make— </p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>If there's a need. </p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, we will see how things develop. One of the problems that we have is that if they come back to us and look at what's happening in the public sector, where we've asked the public sector to introduce these things, and they look, for example, at what's happening in Bridgend County Borough Council, where 9 per cent speak Welsh but 0.01 per cent use the service<a class="footnoteLink" href="#C170403">FootnoteLink</a>, then it's difficult for us to sell the need to do that within the private sector. So, I do think that we do have to ask the commissioner to do a lot more in terms of the use and the uptake of those services. I do think that it's very, very difficult. That's the response I get back very often. The companies who are already doing things in the private sector and already providing services—Welsh speakers aren't making use of those services. I do think there is a responsibility on Welsh speakers to make use of those services. At the moment, they're not doing so. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay, thank you. Carwyn Jones. </p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Thank you, Chair. Minister, good morning. I have two questions. If I could ask the first one, which follows on from what we have been discussing already, which is legislation. You've said, of course, that it's too early to improve legislation at the moment, but are you of the view that legislation will be required in the longer term? </p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, it's possible—it's possible that legislation may be required in the longer term, but I don't think that now is the time for us to be looking at that issue. I am of the view that we had to see better use made of what's already available before we go further. I am of the view that when it comes to language and culture, you can only go so far with legislation. But the fact is, a culture shift is very difficult to achieve, and the stick will only take you so far—you do have to use the carrot as well. And I don't think that we have made sufficient use of the carrot yet.</p>
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<p>Correction: '0.02 per cent of face-to-face customers in the customer contact centre asked for a Welsh language service'</p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>To deal, therefore, with the issue of use—I agree that we need to ensure more use of the language. One way of assisting that—not a complete solution, of course—is to ensure that more children go to Welsh-medium schools, and, of course, there is a target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. I hope I'll be here to see that target. That is still a target for the Government. Evidence has come before the committee, I understand, from some who say that there should be a statutory right to Welsh-medium education across Wales. What is your view on that—on, perhaps, how practical would that be? And, secondly, would there be a need, therefore, for an Act to ensure that that right is available across Wales?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>I don't think that we need distinct legislation for Welsh-medium education. If you look at the work that Kirsty Williams is doing on the curriculum, what's happening there is that we are ensuring that the Welsh language is a key part of developing the curriculum across Wales, so it is a central part of what is being developed. And the fact that we are now looking at a language continuum helps with that process. So, I'm not of the view that we should have distinct legislation for Welsh-medium education. But what's important to me is—. Around 20 per cent of children go to Welsh-medium schools at the moment. We want to see an increase on that number. So, by 2050, we need to ensure that 40 per cent of our children are attending Welsh-medium schools. So, what's important for me is that we understand that the children in school today—we must ensure that many of those choose to send their children to Welsh-medium education and that their attitude towards the Welsh language is being developed now. And the way we teach Welsh in English-medium schools has to change. And we are doing a great deal of work to try to ensure that we are making that a better experience for those pupils. And things like going to Llangrannog, Welsh Language Music Day—all of those things create an excitement around the language that I think is crucial if we want those pupils to choose to send their children to Welsh-medium education in the future.</p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Thank you.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Jayne Bryant.</p>
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Jayne Bryant
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038
Bryant, Jayne
<p>Thank you, Chair. Good morning. You've been very clear that you're determined to simplify the system in relation to standards, and we've had evidence from bodies that it's bureaucratic and complex. You touched on this in a response to David Melding earlier, but how do you think the issue would be addressed without legislation?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>So, we've already started that process of simplification with the health standards. I think the standards are part of it, but it's more the kind of heavy-handed, long-term issue in terms of resolving problems. So, if somebody sees that something in Welsh has been misspelt, and that you see a complaint going to the commissioner—that could take months to resolve itself. I just think that is just simply not going to help us in reaching a million speakers. So, how do we resolve those small little problems very quickly? I think we can see a lot of that being done internally. If you look at what the tribunals have suggested is possible, and this is the point we've been making to the commissioner—that the tribunals have been clear that you can resolve this much quicker and in a more simplified form, and that that process should be helped. So, obviously, we've been speaking also to the current commissioner and the prospective commissioner about how we can simplify that process and how we can speed up the process. So, they're looking at—. We've had some legal advice and they have now taken their own legal advice. So, hopefully, we will see some movement in that area.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Thank you. I just wanted to go back to something that Bethan Webb said earlier about the relationship with the commissioner. Why did it need a White Paper to have a relationship that would allow more discussion with the commissioner? Why couldn't these things happen before a White Paper appeared? Was there a problem in terms of communication with the Government and the commissioner, or what did it take to change or to improve that relationship in that regard?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I do think that we need to improve the relationship between the Welsh Government and the commissioner, and I have now taken steps to ensure that we do improve ways of working. So, I've spoken to the commissioner's office and I've spoken to the department to see how we can make improvements. We have to collaborate—</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Wasn't there collaboration, previously?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>There was collaboration in the past, and I think Bethan Webb made it clear that there was a great deal of work being done at some levels, but I do think, in terms of the big picture, that we do have to ensure that we're all moving in the same direction. I think there's an opportunity now, with a new commissioner, for us to turn to a new page in this relationship.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Is it about personalities more than anything, then?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>No. I do think that part of the culture was simply to focus on regulations, and they saw their responsibility as having an emphasis on regulation rather than on promotion. I think the discussion that has occurred in light of the White Paper means that they also now realise that people are keen to see a change in terms of promotion.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Thank you. Bethan Webb wanted to come in.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>Yes, just to say, we had to be careful—. At the beginning of my journey in the department, of course, we were writing the standards that were going to be applied to the Welsh Government, so we had to be very careful with how we were collaborating at that time, and also during the enforcement stage, which was six months to a year, when they were doing their regulatory functions. So, there was a good relationship, of course, but it's easier now to work in partnership because that period has come to an end in terms of the enforcement and setting the standards. They can now support the Government, even, in terms of implementing the internal standards.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>But, that's true of them, too, isn't it, because you say that less focus is needed on regulation, but the whole point of focusing on regulation was that it was a new system that needed to be put in place. It would be natural, now, that they would have more time to do that promotion work that they perhaps couldn't do at the beginning of this journey.</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I'd like to think so, and we will now look forward to seeing evidence that that change is happening.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. Siân Gwenllian.</p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Thank you. You've mentioned the lack of use of Welsh-language services, and I totally agree with you; there is a need for us, as Welsh speakers, to make more use of them. But, one positive aspect of introducing the standards that perhaps we're not placing enough emphasis on is the change of culture that can happen within an organisation itself. And that, in turn, can make it must easier to reach the million Welsh speakers.</p>
<p>Also, what we're not perhaps emphasising enough is the fact that the standards create a Welsh-speaking workforce within some of the organisations. They bring Welsh speakers together, and that is a positive aspect of the standards. I would like to know—. You have been collecting data on the use made by the public. Are there data that show the increase in workforces that can speak Welsh? I think perhaps it's important to collect those data as well and to see the positive impact of the standards in that regard. </p>
<p>Two and a half years have passed now since the standards have come to a halt, so that aspect of being able to change the culture of organisations hasn't been happening, and I'm sure you'd agree that it's time to go back to that now.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I do agree. I think the standards have changed the culture within a number of organisations, and I think that's become clear in the evidence that you as a committee have heard. One of the problems that we have is the fact that what we haven't had from the commissioner is statistics on usage. So, when we receive an assurance report from the commissioner, we haven't received any stats on the use of the services available. So, the statistics you have in front of you here haven't come from the commissioner; these have come from local government. So, that's one of the things that I would like to see in the future, because it's not our role to look at usage levels. That's the responsibility of the commissioner, and what we haven't had is that information in the past. So, I would like to see that changing. I do hope that, in future assurance reports, there will be an improved picture of service usage. But I come back to this point: unless we can convince people to use these services—and you're right in terms of the workforce issues, but we're coming to a point now where it's difficult for people to recruit within some of these organisations. So, we are reaching a point where we have to increase the number of Welsh speakers in order to be able to provide these services.</p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>It's a circle, isn't it?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Yes, it's a circle.</p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Because these standards can provide a route for somebody who's going to have Welsh-medium education to know that there are posts available in the public sector where the skill of Welsh speaking is important, and that is directly because of the standards. To go back to the question, you've got a small sample here, and I don't think we should place too much emphasis on that small sample, but I agree that there is a need to increase the use of the language. But can you ask the commissioner also to collect data in terms of how standards are influencing the number of Welsh speakers within organisations that have gone through the process of standards? Because there is work—. I think many people forget—a lot of people think that the standards are just some sort of rules that are placed on a body, and they're expected to comply with them. There is a long and detailed positive process happening before getting to that situation, isn't there? And we've seen it in evidence, where culture does change and Welsh speakers within those workforces feel much more confident with regard to their Welsh-speaking skills. So, I think it's important to collect that data as well.</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>We are currently developing a framework agreement for the commissioner, and that is one of the things that we will ensure is included as part of our requirements.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Sorry, just one quick question on the use of the language: you've said on a number of occasions that there is a lack of people using the language, but also you said there's a lack of data. You've quoted what's come from the local government annual reports, but we've heard as a committee that there are problems with that data as well. For example, we've had an e-mail saying that, if you e-mail an English contact within the council, that counts as an English e-mail even though the content is in Welsh. So, if this data isn't reliable, how can you say that use isn't being made on the ground? Perhaps it is, but the data is wrong or patchy.</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I do think that's a point that the commissioner should take up and look at, so that when we do have a reflection of what is happening, we can be confident that the statistics we have are consistent across local government. So, that, I hope, is part of what we will ask her to do as part of the assurance report, and that we will see an improvement in terms of the data provided to us. Because at the moment, we have to rely on local government, and, as you say, perhaps that isn't entirely appropriate on all occasions.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. So, the commissioner is solely responsible for this work, in your view.</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Yes.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay, fine. David Melding.</p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Minister, the commissioner either completed or advanced significantly work on standards in some very important areas, including social housing, UK Government departments, utility companies, rail and bus, before the Government then decided to stay any further introduction of standards, awaiting this process, in essence. So, will we now see rapid introduction of standards in these areas, or will you expect a comprehensive review to be carried out by the next commissioner, presumably? </p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>So, I think there are a couple of areas where we're already quite advanced. So, water is one area where we think that we can move ahead fairly rapidly. The other one was the <em>rheoleiddio</em>—health regulators. So, those two are very much near the end of the process, so I'm hopeful that we could forge ahead with those areas fairly rapidly. </p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>And some of the others—are they just so complex that you want to reduce them fundamentally? Is that the criteria you're using at the moment in those that can come in fairly soon, and those that need review? </p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>One of the things that I've done is that I've written to the utilities companies and asked them to come in and have a discussion about what they're doing already, how far we can persuade them to work at the moment. I think we've got to be careful and sensitive in the way we approach this, because the last thing we want to do is see people not invest in Wales as a result. And so, we've got to be just careful how we tread, in particular when they start to quote the kind of figures that we're quoting already. If you look at it, some of these companies are already providing a service, and people are not using them. So, it's very, very difficult, I think, for us to then say, 'Step up your work'. And the investment that you'd have to make if the Welsh public are not using them—it's very difficult. </p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>And where are we with social housing, which is massively important in the heartland areas, for instance, for retaining a Welsh-speaking population? Are the standards in a fit state to be introduced soon? </p>
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Eluned Morgan
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Morgan, Eluned
<p>We've done a lot of work on those as well. Bethan, would you like to—?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>Yes, we've done a fair bit of work on the social housing standards, so they would be next. As you know, the commissioner always publishes a list of potential standards, because she starts—the process kicks off with her investigations and therefore we have a list that we stick to in terms of how we introduce the legislation. So, after the health regulators and water, social housing was the next on that list, from memory. </p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Okay, thank you. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
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Sayed, Bethan
<p>Siân. </p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Is there any idea regarding the timetable for that? So, we're talking about water and health regulation and housing associations, to be clear. Those will be the next standards to come forward, but when will that happen? </p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>It is difficult, because many people at the moment are being sucked into working on these issues—</p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Are the four people in the Welsh language unit being subsumed by Brexit? </p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>One of them has certainly gone already. </p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>So, there are three left, but they have been working on the Welsh language Bill, and now they are free from that, so—</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>And they have been affected by Brexit, and what's happening with Brexit. That's happening across Government. That's the problem that we have, so it's difficult for us to say, 'This is the timetable', because everything is being affected by Brexit at the moment. </p>
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Sian Gwenllian
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Gwenllian, Sian
<p>And then the organisations that have been created from new since the Act came into force—Qualifications Wales and the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, for example—when are they going to come within the regulations? </p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>I think we can move quite swiftly on those. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>Yes, it is a legislative process. So, it does depend, as the Minister has said, on the legislative resource of Government, because that resource is being taken up by Brexit at the moment. </p>
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Okay. And to be clear, these three persons now in the Welsh language unit—they'll be working on the standards, but will they also be responsible for the strategy of a million Welsh speakers? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>No, no. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Who's responsible for driving that? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>I'm responsible for driving that, and—</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Who are the civil servants working on that? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, there is a Welsh language division. You're aware—I think you've asked on a number of occasions how many people are working—</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Yes, and I still have no idea. And I'll ask again today. [<em>Laughter.</em>]</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, we can provide—</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>I think you've been provided with this—this is the structure of the division. So, there is a branch that is responsible for Cymraeg 2050. We have policy officials who do deal with standards, but, of course, they're not lawyers—they deal with policy. So, they remain within the division, of course they do. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Siân, have you finished? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>So, currently, their work is driving the 2050 strategy—the policy officials. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, there are policy officers—. There is a strategy that has been clearly set out, and their job is to deliver on that policy. So, we know exactly what we want to do and what we want to deliver. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>But that work could go to the commissioner in the future. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>It's a possibility, and that is a discussion yet to be had. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. Vikki Howells.</p>
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Vikki Howells
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107
Howells, Vikki
<p>Thank you, Chair. We've taken lots of evidence about the complaints process and the complexity of that, particularly the role of the commissioner in the decision-making process as well. One area that was being flagged up to us consistently is the expectation that the commissioner will investigate all the complaints she receives, regardless of whether the issue has been rectified before the investigation begins. It doesn't seem to be a very efficient way of operating or really aligned with the sort of carrot-and-stick approach that you've been discussing with us today. So, what are your intentions for simplifying that process? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, part of the problem is that that is an issue for the commissioner. I would love to see simplification of the process. I've heard that it can take about 56 hours to resolve a very, very simple issue about misspelling. This is really not how resources should be used, I don't think. So, what we've done is to get that evidence, we've asked for clarity, legal clarity, in terms of how far she can push the matter. We think that the evidence that has come from the tribunals in the past gives her the authority to speed the process up. So, we would very much encourage her to do that, and also to benchmark against other similar bodies, and to look at how fast resolution happens in other areas. The ombudsman says 'You've got to go through the system internally before you come anywhere near me.' That would seem to me to be a sensible approach. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Carwyn Jones.</p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Thank you, Chair. Of course, the Government's view in the White Paper is that there is a need to refocus on efforts to promote and change the way that regulation works, and that there's a need to do this as a matter of urgency. I totally agree with that. In which way, therefore, can that—? In what way does that work in terms of the decision not to go ahead with the Bill?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Focusing on promotion.</p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Yes. Do you need a Bill to do that, or are there other ways in which it could be done without the need for legislation?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I think that we can push the boundaries of the current system a lot further. I do think, certainly from the point of view of Government—. What I felt was that, as that work wasn't being done by the commissioner in the way that we would have hoped, in terms of the promotion activity—we had started to do that internally ourselves. Now, that's not necessarily the best place for it to be done, but we were filling a gap. Now, what we would like to see is that, if we see a new culture emerge within the commissioner's office, then I do think that we can do a great deal of work together in terms of promotion.</p>
<p>I want to see this as far more of a partnership between the Government and the commissioner. Of course, the commissioner must be independent, and of course there is regulatory work to be done within the commissioner's office, but many of these bodies and organisations who are subject to standards need help, and what we want to do is to ensure that that help is available to them in order to deliver against standards, so that more people use those services, rather than those organisations seeing the commissioner as the language police. I don’t think that helps anyone.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Okay. You said earlier that you’re open to transferring some responsibilities to the commissioner. We have to remember, that—experience has taught me—sometimes, responsibilities are transferred, but the blame remains with the Government. So, there is a need to be careful there. But, if we are in a situation where responsibilities have been transferred, would it be true, therefore, that resources would follow any transfer of responsibility?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, may I give you an example of what we're doing internally at the moment? With Cymraeg Byd Busnes, we now have 12 people travelling across Wales, helping small businesses to provide services through the medium of Welsh, and they can help with some translation or whatever it may be. Now, that’s an example of something that could be done by the commissioner’s office. But at the moment—and there is a helpline, and I would have thought that that’s something that the commissioner should provide, but we are going to be providing that. So, I do think that there are things that the commissioner could be doing, and, of course, if we were to see that there was an appetite in the commissioner’s office to move in that direction, then we could see the resources—. And we wouldn’t transfer responsibility without resources. Those people are currently within Welsh Government, and it’s possible that we may see them moving to the commissioner’s office in the future. So, yes, of course we would, but, at the moment, we're not sufficiently confident in seeing that they, too, wouldn’t be drawn in to the regulatory vortex, as it were.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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102
Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>So, therefore, the situation would be that there would be a transfer of resources and people, and not a situation in which more posts would be created in the commissioner’s office, perhaps doing the same work as officials in Welsh Government.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Ultimately, that’s what I would like to see, but we do have to see that there is a change of culture and that there is more enthusiasm in terms of carrying out the promotional activities within the commissioner’s office.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>What would be the benefit of that?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, the benefit would be—. I think that there are things that are done well within Government, such as policy. I think that people out in the community—I don’t see why they should be regulated by Government. I would prefer to see them out there and that they are closer to the people. And I would like to see, and I would like to think, that the commissioner would be closer to Welsh-speaking communities. I think that’s part of her role.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>What would it take for you to understand what a change of culture is? Because, for us who scrutinise, we need to understand what it would take for you to say, ‘Yes, the culture has changed in this way for me to earmark this funding for them’. What is the guidance, or the 'conditions', as in your paper, that would allow this to happen?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, if you—. I think we’d need to see a shift in the balance in terms of the number of those responsible for regulation within—</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>But that balance would be reliant on funding, and we’ve heard that the funding isn’t sufficient at the moment. So, how is that balance going to change unless they have the capacity in place?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>I don’t think it’s down to money. If it takes 56 hours to deal with one minor complaint, then it’s clear that those resources currently being sucked up into those activities could be released elsewhere. So, that’s the balance that we want to see changing.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>And what about the other organisations that are doing promotional work, such as the Urdd and the <em>mentrau?</em> You’ve placed a lot of focus on the commissioner to do promotion work; what would the balance be with them, therefore, in holding them to account for more work in this sector?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I do think that we need to ensure that they pulling their weight in reaching a million Welsh speakers. I think some of them are doing excellent work. It comes back to the point raised by Carwyn Jones in terms of where responsibility lies. If we give the responsibility to another organisation, it's very often the Government that's still blamed, even if the responsibility is transferred elsewhere. So, we do have to ensure that we strike the right balance in that regard. And I think that part of what we're doing in terms of language planning—and this is the new area that we're looking at—is that we are clear as to where that most comfortably sits. And I'm quite clear—if we were to provide all of the funds to the commissioner, and the commissioner were to say, 'Well, actually, we're not going to be funding the National Eisteddfod any more', the criticism wouldn't be of the commissioner's office, it would be a criticism of the Welsh Government. So, we have to be clear as to where the balance is acceptable in political terms too.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. Jayne Bryant.</p>
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Jayne Bryant
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038
Bryant, Jayne
<p>Thank you, Chair. Do you see a greater role for the commissioner in language planning, such as bringing experts together? Is that something you foresee?</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>I think language planning is the area that we need to focus on next. So, I've asked for a paper to be written to set out the options in relation to language planning. I think a lot of the tools in relation to language planning lie with the Welsh Government. So, education is a key part of language planning. I think economic development, and providing the opportunities for Welsh speakers to stay in the heartlands, is a key part of Welsh Government. So, I think there is a big case to be made that, actually, some of that—or, probably, that should be done in Welsh Government, but I'm open to hear whether other options are possible. So, I want to make sure that the partnership council, which advises us on the Welsh language, are a part of that debate, and that they are giving some external advice on where the best place to put that is. But, obviously, I think we need a discussion with the commissioner. We need clarity in terms of who is responsible for what. I think we can do a better job on that.</p>
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Jayne Bryant
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038
Bryant, Jayne
<p>Is that something that's started already, or is it just about to?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>The conversation has definitely started already. It's something we touched upon in the partnership council recently. It's something that we have been discussing with Dyfodol—the organisation are very keen to see that happening. So I think there's a real opportunity for us to really forge ahead in that area of language planning and to develop an expertise. So, I'm not sure that that expertise really exists either in the commissioner's office at the moment or within the Welsh Government. So, I think we have pockets of expertise; what we don't have is a real overall strategic view of language planning.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Thank you. Siân Gwenllian.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>I think we've heard, or the committee has heard, evidence from other countries that says that Wales is at the forefront in terms of language planning—that there is expertise here in Wales. But the question is: is the expertise in the Government? And what experts tell me is that the expertise isn't in the Government, and therefore that's why there is a need to bring that together in some sort of arm's-length body. Are you open to that idea?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>At the moment, I am looking at the options. I don't think I want to see an arm's-length body, because, again, that would create a new structure. I would want to have a discussion as to whether that would be within the commissioner's office or within Government. But I am open to listening to people's views on that, and that's why I've asked for a paper, to see where the best place for that is. But I want to listen to the experts in the area. There are experts in this area, and I want to hear what they have to say.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>Do you think you're being ambitious enough? We're talking about shifting resources around—we're not talking about providing more resources towards the million Welsh speakers plan. And the truth is that the Welsh Language Board—in those days, there was double the sum of money that's being spent on the Welsh language being spent then. We've gone back, and yet the ambition is a million Welsh speakers. So, is the answer really about providing more resources, so that the commissioner can continue with her work, and that the language planning work and promotion work also has a proper status, because it appears to me at the moment that you're trying to stuff everything into one place without sufficient resources? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I don't think anyone could say that the Welsh Government isn't ambitious in terms of a million Welsh speakers. That is very ambitious. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Sian Gwenllian
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4981
Gwenllian, Sian
<p>But resources do have to follow ambition. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>So, what's entirely crucial for us to underline is the resources going into Welsh-medium education. That's where we're going to see a fundamental shift in the number of Welsh speakers. So, it's not just the pot of money available within Welsh Government or the commissioner's office. There is a huge amount of money invested in Welsh-medium education. So, you can't ignore that, and there's far more money going into that than was the case in the past. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Thank you. Can I just ask a question on your idea of having a governing board as part of the commission's work? Do you think that it would be the role of the Government to appoint or to take a part in appointing members of that board, or would it be a role for the commissioner? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I do think it's important that all the power—. There is a danger of putting power into the hands of one person, and this is the impression—. We have seen evidence. I know that the House of Lords has done a lot of work on this, and said that there is a risk in placing so much power in the hands of one person, and that they recommend that there is some sort of board that's created that can be consulted on. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>But the other commissioners, the children's commissioner, the older people's commissioner—is there a danger there? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, the sort of power they have isn't the same sort of power that the commissioner has. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>No, but they are commissioners. And commissioners, as Sian has said—. We've had evidence from international commissioners that look to Wales as a positive example. Would you want to have a part in the appointment of any governing body? Would you want to see that happening, even though perhaps the new commissioner wouldn't want that to happen? That is something that has to happen, in your view.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, I do think that we have to ensure that we don't step on the commissioner's toes in terms of regulation. I think the commissioner has to be independent of Government in terms of regulation. But I do think, in terms of promotion, perhaps we do have a role, and it's important that we do collaborate on promotion. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>But, to be devil's advocate, there are a number of people in the Welsh language world who can advise the commissioner now without there having to be a governing board. Why is that a solution to your problem? </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Because what is needed is consistency and clarity and some sort of assurance that there is a direct route for us to be clear that the commissioner is taking account of the views of others. At the moment, those assurances aren't in place. There are many people she can approach, but she doesn't have to do that. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Right. Just before we end, is there some sort of timescale for all of this? Clearly, we have had this quite recently, so we would want to understand what the process is now in moving forward so that we understand, as a committee, how we can scrutinise the process. </p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Okay. So, the next steps—. There are things that we are currently implementing at the moment. The next important thing for me is that we make progress with our plans for language planning, that we make progress there, that we look at standards, particularly the water companies and the regulation of health—that those are put in place—that we don't lose focus on the private sector and ensure that they do what they can at the moment. That's why I've asked them to attend a meeting with me. I know that the commissioner is working on on the banks and supermarkets. And I will be doing some work on the utilities, so we're working in those areas. So, clearly, we will be working with the Minister for Education in terms of how we can encourage more teachers to teach through the medium of Welsh. So, those are the priorities for me over the next few months.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Perhaps a better question to ask is: when will you be in a better position to provide us with more of an update on what's been given in the evidence paper?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Well, much of it is reliant on Brexit, but what I can say is that, in terms of language planning, I would want to see that making progress. So, June—something like that. Perhaps before then.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>Yes.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Yes.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>And I just have a supplementary question in terms of asking you about information on the national health service primary care contract regulations. What is the timescale in terms of the introduction of these? You've said that you would provide the committee with enough time to scrutinise them.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>So, what's happening at the moment is that there are discussions with the four representative bodies—general practitioners, opticians, pharmacists and dentists. What we're trying to do is to see to what extent we can place Welsh language services within their contracts and terms and conditions. So, what we've done is to develop a toolkit for the sector in order to facilitate this. In terms of the timetable, do you have any update?</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Yes, it's the regulatory timetable that would help us.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>That's a matter for the health department, but it's captured in the same context in terms of the Brexit timetable being a priority in terms of legislation.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. So, we need to contact the health Minister.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Webb
Webb, Bethan
<p>The health department.</p>
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2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. Thank you very much for providing evidence. If there's anything in addition from us, we'll write to you shortly. Thank you very much.</p>
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Eluned Morgan
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4970
Morgan, Eluned
<p>Diolch.</p>
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3. Papers to note
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>There are items in terms of papers to note. There are quite a number of letters to note. Is everyone happy to note the papers, or are there any comments on them? No.</p>
<p>So, we'll now break until 11.15 a.m., when the BBC will be giving evidence. Thank you very much.</p>
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3. Papers to note
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<p>The meeting adjourned between 10:42 and 11:14.</p>
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4. National Broadcast Archive for Wales
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Thank you very much. We move on to item 4: the national broadcast archive for Wales. I welcome the BBC and the witnesses today: Rhodri Talfan Davies, director of BBC Cymru Wales, and Rhys Evans, head of strategy and education. Welcome once more to the committee. As you probably know by now, we have questions on different themes, and we will start there, if that's okay with you. </p>
<p>First of all from me: could you just provide us with some sort of overview of how you've been part of this project, and what did it take to reach this point, in working with the national library and the lottery, in making this application?</p>
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4. National Broadcast Archive for Wales
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Of course. If I could just introduce—Rhys has led the discussion on the development of the archive over the past two years, because he is head of strategy and education in BBC Cymru Wales.</p>
<p>Just in terms of how this debate started, well, first of all, there was a decision to relocate the BBC, and with that came around £100 million of investment in terms of transforming the technology systems within BBC Cymru Wales. And for the first time, we had the ability to digitise our assets in the archives—some 180,000 assets in the BBC Cymru Wales archive.</p>
<p>What happens in the digitisation process is that, clearly, a digital copy is made, a number of copies in fact, and some are retained in the building and others are held elsewhere, in terms of security and resilience. So, in terms of BBC Cymru Wales's requirements as a broadcaster, once the digitisation process is completed, there is no need to retain those assets. So, that's where Rhys comes in, given his overview of education. The core question was: do we simply dispose of those assets, or is there another institution, such as the national library, that would see a value in archiving those old assets? That was the beginning of the discussion, I think. I don't know whether you have—.</p>
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4. National Broadcast Archive for Wales
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>From that point forward, there were discussions, going back about three years, between me, the BBC and the chief executive of the national library, in terms of opportunity. And this is what we have here: an opportunity to open BBC Cymru Wales's archive, which is a chronicle of a nation's life in both languages, and opening that content out to the public, not only in Aberystwyth but also in Wrexham, Cardiff, Carmarthen and across—if the project is going to happen—hundreds of other community events, as well as 1,500 clips and programmes online.</p>
<p>And the selfish element—. The easiest thing in the world—as Rhodri has said—the easiest thing for us, as the BBC, would have been to stop once we had finished the digitising project, because from our point of view as a broadcaster, there is no need for us to do anything. But given our other responsibilities, in terms of working with national organisations in partnership, in terms of our education mission and also our responsibility towards the culture and history of Wales, this was—and continues to be—a unique opportunity, not just in terms of the BBC's archive. It's important that we don't forget—we're talking here about a national broadcast archive. That is, the BBC's archive would live side by side with other audio collections from ITV, S4C and other broadcasters, as well as all the richness of the other collections that exist in Aberystwyth. And then there would be one home that would be completely suitable for this collection and other collections.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Can I just ask—because I don't have any expertise in archiving, I have to say—you say that you would have disposed of the assets, once you created digital copies, clearly, but what's the concept behind disposal? Wouldn't it make sense to retain it because there may be a problem in future with the digital copies or there may be technological changes? What's the justification for disposing of the asset completely?</p>
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2019-02-13T11:19:42
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Well, there are different assets. I'm not an expert in the archive field, but I'll try to answer, and I'm sure Rhys will come in too. There are some assets that exist on tape, where there is a natural process that it deteriorates. There are some film cans that are perhaps worth securing, because it's something that we haven't prepared for. But the truth is that there is internal expertise within the BBC that keeps an eye on digital standards and that ensures that the assets are maintained to the standard that's required for the period that we're working in. So, there is a process of updating the digital standards as we go forward. The reason for keeping a number of different copies on different sites is if there was a technical problem or damage. So, there are strong processes within the BBC to ensure that those risks are managed.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>So, there's no risk, in not retaining the original asset, that technology might mean that it won't be available in the distant future.</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>No. The truth is that digitisation is the best way of safeguarding the archive, because there is a natural process with any physical asset that it does deteriorate over time. So, the digitising process is part of looking after that archive.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>And what about copyright and public access, then? Is that within the terms of the lottery project?</p>
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2019-02-13T11:21:18
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>Yes, it is within the terms of the project. In terms of copyright, we have a national copyright library in the national library, as well as the other three centres, one in Wrexham, Cardiff and also in Carmarthen, because they are managed by the library. They have copyright in order to make all our materials available. That is in accordance with the law.</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>For educational purposes only.</p>
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>For those educational purposes. But we don't have the right to provide all our content, despite how much we'd like to do that—we don't have the right to make all our content available online. It's entirely impossible for legal reasons, because in many pieces of film or recordings, third parties have rights, and musicians, authors, dramatists, writers. That is, to put it in more practical terms, perhaps: if we were ever to do that, there would be a large number of legal proceedings taking place in Llandaff the following day.</p>
<p>So, the creative approach that we've taken within the copyright regime is to ensure that all of the content is available, these 180,000 assets, in Aberystwyth, and the three other centres. But in addition to that, there will be 1,500 programmes and clips available online. That's going to be a very significant contribution. So, that content will be free from any copyright obligations. We will be working over a period of years with the library in order to ensure that the most attractive collections, those that are most appealing to the public, will be available, and free from copyright.</p>
<p>In addition to that, the library itself has prepared a broad-ranging programme of activities with groups such as Welsh learners, groups that would benefit from this content in terms of how it can help with memory—dementia groups, for example—so that a number of different groups benefit from this content, where there are no copyright barriers to that. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay, fine. Thank you for that. David Melding.</p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Can I just clarify: has all of your archive been digitalised, or have you regarded some parts of it as repetitive and not of interest anymore, or did you actually digitise it all?</p>
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2019-02-13T11:24:07
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>We have digitised almost all of it, yes.</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>We naturally, from year to year, do a thinning process. Clearly, there are rushes and archives picked up as part of the wider production process that were never used for broadcast. In some cases, we would get rid of that. </p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>I asked that because of the main question I just wanted clarified. You're actually sending the digitised copy, if I can put it that way, of your archive, to the national library, if I understand.</p>
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>That's correct, yes.</p>
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David Melding
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Melding, David
<p>So, why do we retain historic materials, then, in terms of the old-fashioned tapes and such like? </p>
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>Okay. I think we need to explain there are different remits here. Our remit as a broadcaster is to digitise content for our own production, internal purposes, so that people in future, programme makers, can make programmes based on that archive content. The reason why we offered the original tapes as well as the digital copies of everything that we had digitised to the library was because of their other remit, if you like, their longer term horizon in terms of ensuring that—and this is not dissimilar to the way a library would approach digitising manuscripts or newspapers; in other words, you digitise the original, but you also hold on to the original because, in terms of the library's statutory remit, they see value in the originals as well, as well as, obviously, having a digital copy that can be made more widely available to the public.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:25:47
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Another good example of that is that if we were to hold, I don't know, 80 years of copies of the <em>Western Mail</em>, once we've digitised them, that's fine for journalistic purposes, but clearly the remit of the archive or the remit of the national library—they would want to hold on to the original copies. It is that difference of function that means that they have greater motivation to hold on to the original archives. There's no broadcast benefit to us holding on to them, and that's the difference—</p>
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2019-02-13T11:26:18
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>No, I understand, and it's a very fair point. We could make the—you know, why hold original copies of the first edition of the Welsh Bible, or something? There are enormous reasons to do so—let me clarify that. [<em>Laughter</em>.] So, I understand the point you're making. But in terms of the social use, the ongoing use of the digitised material, which, as you say, is a wider remit with the library, they will do that from the digitised copy, won't they? I think we need to be fairly clear about that.</p>
<p>So, the second part of my question, then, is in terms of the preservation of old tapes—and we've all heard about films that corrode, and there is a real issue in terms of preserving these things—what sort of assessment did you make of that, and has that affected the discussions you've had with the library and, indeed, the offer you've made in terms of the direct or in-kind resources? Did you draw on your experience or that of your colleagues in terms of the relationship with the British Library?</p>
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2019-02-13T11:27:28
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=6983&l=en
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>In terms of the assessment, yes, certainly, before we started digitising, we had made a very full assessment of our collection in Llandaff. Overall, it's in a pretty good condition. So, the cost of the National Library of Wales having to look after—the ongoing cost—our collection isn't particularly onerous. I think it's worth bearing in mind that, within that big number of 180,000 broadcast assets or programmes, there is a huge variety of formats, so from film, where there is a greater level of risk—and where film, because of its inherent nature, degrades, there will be particular focus there—over to some of the easier, more robust formats, such as the digital tapes that we used in the late 1980s through to the early 1990s, up to 2014, at which point BBC Wales started broadcasting wholly in digital files.</p>
<p>In terms of the British Library, I think there's an important point to be made there. There is a clear precedent around a copyright library holding and making available a BBC collection. So, there's been an agreement in place between the BBC and the British Library since 1964 for the British Library to hold and to make available around 190,000 listenable, accessible items to the public. And that arrangement, that partnership, which is very important to the BBC, is made available on a no-cost basis. And in terms of the relationship that we have developed and hope to have on an ongoing basis with the library, that is the precedent that we will look to.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:29:32
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7107&l=en
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Okay. So, have you made any assessment of the preservation costs for this material? Do you regard that as the library's job, really—to make that assessment? They're experts in maintaining a collection. Because this goes to the heart of what the Minister tells us—this is where the whole model has not been really properly worked out.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:29:52
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7127&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>I think—just two things before Rhys comes back. It's very important to underline first that this is a proposed gift to the national library. So, clearly, it is the national library that will have made its own independent assessment of the condition of the archive. It is also the national library that would determine which parts of the archive it wished to retain for archival purposes. So, it's perfectly within the scope of this offer—</p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>It can dispose of materials.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:30:20
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Sorry?</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:30:21
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>It can dispose of materials.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:30:22
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>It can. So, that filleting process, if the national library wants to do that—. There is no obligation on the national library to take the archive lock, stock and barrel and, clearly, in putting its bid together to the Heritage Lottery Fund, it has considered the current condition of that archive. It's not taken us at our word in terms of the situation; it's done its own evaluation of that.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:30:46
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7181&l=en
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>And it's fair to say, from what I infer from what Rhys said, that the condition of the archive is considered to be reasonable and what you'd expect from materials that age and there aren't massive additional issues that have led you to dispose of it, however generous the way you describe it.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:31:07
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Yes. Some of the assets date back to what—the 1930s, 1940s?</p>
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2019-02-13T11:31:10
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7205&l=en
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>The 1930s—our earliest recording that we've still got.</p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Diolch yn fawr.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>So, just following on quickly from what David Melding said, you wouldn't agree with what the Deputy Minister told us in the last meeting, where he said, and I quote:</p>
<p>'If they think they can get away with taking money out of the Welsh block, they will try that on, and I'm surprised that this project ever really emerged.' </p>
<p>You would see it as a gift. So, you wouldn't see it as some—</p>
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2019-02-13T11:31:36
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>No, we wouldn't agree with that. I think the issue here is that it's very important to understand, and I think we underline this in the note to the committee, that if the national library does not wish to receive this collection, that is clearly a matter for the national library—we made the offer—and on that basis, the proposal and the HLF bid have been put together. if the national library, for whatever reason, decides to decline that offer, our position would be that we would dispose of the archive assets. And this is really important because it's the key difference between our proposal, and I think the Deputy Minister talked of the Perivale—</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>We'll come on to that.</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>—so, we do not need the physical archive for our operational purposes, which is a situation quite different to the rest of the UK.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Carwyn Jones.</p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Thank you, Chair. One thing I wanted to look at was what would be the contribution of the public sector in Wales to this project. From what I understand, the project will cost about £237,000 a year after 2024.</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>As a whole.</p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Sorry?</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>As a whole, yes.</p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Yes, and you've offered about £60,000 between everything in terms of funding and support. We know that there is a contribution of £9 million being given to Perivale by the BBC. Is that correct?</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Can we deal with Perivale first of all? Perivale is a centre for the BBC's broadcast requirements. Wales is the only nation in the UK where the BBC has been able to digitise its entire archive. So, some 75 per cent of all the assets in Perivale are non-digitised and need to be safeguarded for broadcast and production purposes. That isn't the situation in Wales. We don't need to retain the physical assets for broadcast needs in Wales. So, because Wales is ahead in terms of digital investment, as compared to the rest of the UK, we don't need a permanent archive in terms of the old assets. So, that's the difference. And this is an important point. The BBC isn't trying to avoid costs here. If the library doesn't need the assets, they won't be retained; they will be disposed of. Perivale is entirely necessary for the operational needs of the BBC.</p>
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>So, we know the BBC is giving £9 million, as I said—</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>It's not giving £9 million. The BBC owns Perivale, so Perivale is the BBC's archive centre.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:34:20
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7395&l=en
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>But just to get this clear: does it cost £9 million to run or—?</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T11:34:23
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7398&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>That's the figure.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:34:28
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7403&l=en
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>No, that isn't accurate. The capital cost of the establishment of Perivale back in 2011 was £9.2 million. Perivale doesn't cost £9 million to run. The other fundamental difference between Perivale and what we're discussing here is that there is no public access at all to Perivale. Perivale is an entirely closed centre, entirely for the internal needs of the BBC, where the whole purpose of a national broadcast archive is to make the BBC's collections, and other broadcasters', available and accessible. So, this comparison is very unfortunate, if I may say so, because there is no correspondence, in my mind, between Perivale and the national broadcast archive.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:35:21
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7456&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>If we were to ask the Government or the national library to fund the BBC's digital archive in Wales for broadcasting requirements, that would correspond, but nobody's asking that. This is about whether the national library wants to keep the physical archive for educational purposes. That's not the mission of Perivale at all.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T11:35:45
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Just one further question, in terms of Perivale, therefore: £9 million to establish it. That was the whole cost of Perivale—did the BBC pay everything, 100 per cent, or was there another contribution from—?</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T11:36:00
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7495&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>The BBC owns Perivale. It's like Llandaff. It's a building and a centre owned by the BBC for broadcasting requirements.</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Just to ask, therefore: is there a national archive in Scotland, with the BBC?</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T11:36:14
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7509&l=en
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>No, there isn't.</p>
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2019-02-13T11:36:16
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7511&l=en
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>No. Is there one in Northern Ireland at all?</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:36:19
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7514&l=en
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>No, there isn't.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T11:36:20
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7515&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>An archive for broadcasting needs?</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>The archive you want to establish in the library—is there something that corresponds in Scotland or Northern Ireland?</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:36:27
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7522&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>No—</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:36:29
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7524&l=en
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>This is the first.</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:36:31
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7526&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>—because in Northern Ireland the majority of the assets maintained in Northern Ireland are non-digitised assets, and it's more of a mix in Scotland. But there has been no gift given to any external organisations, because those assets are required for broadcasting requirements.</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:36:52
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7547&l=en
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Why do you believe that the Deputy Minister has added this to the debate—from what I believe—at the last minute? Because, he said in the evidence that nobody has answered this question of Perivale sufficiently for him. Why do you think—? Because I think I understand the difference, but why do you think the Deputy Minister didn't understand the difference?</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:37:18
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7573&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>I can't speculate on that.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:37:21
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7576&l=en
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Well, you must have has discussions with Government.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:37:23
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7578&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Well, yes, the issue of Perivale was raised, and we heard the session with the Deputy Minister. Since then, clearly, we've taken the opportunity to have a discussion—</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:37:33
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7588&l=en
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>But he didn't raise that before the evidence session.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:37:36
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7591&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>No.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
167001
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2019-02-13T11:37:37
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7592&l=en
190213-4
4. National Broadcast Archive for Wales
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159
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay, thank you. Dai Lloyd.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:37:40
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7595&l=en
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167
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Dai Lloyd
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=167
Lloyd, Dai
<p>Thank you, Chair. A number of the questions regarding Perivale have been answered, and I do understand the difference. Of course, as has been mentioned before, when this news broke, I think, in November, for those of us not in these inner circles of Government and important people and stuff and so forth, but, essentially, as Rhys has already said, we're talking about a national treasure here. In the midst of all this controversy, can you update us on what discussions are happening behind closed doors? I know the rooms used to be full of smoke but now there's legislation stopping that smoke, so, are you getting closer to any sort of agreement to solve this? And I think what we've been thinking about is if this doesn't happen we'll lose this collection, but if you say it's been digitised we won't lose this information, at least—.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:38:40
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7655&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>As a Welsh institution, the BBC—the assets would be maintained digitally, but those assets wouldn't be available for educational purposes, and the originals would not be maintained on any basis.</p>
<p>In terms of the discussion, clearly, after the last committee session, we asked for a meeting, and that was a positive meeting. It was an opportunity to explain the situation and to answer the questions on Perivale. It's not unexpected for us that the Government would want to scrutinise these proposals. These are expensive proposals, this is highly ambitious, and public funds are in short supply. So, we have no problem that there is scrutiny of the plan and that difficult questions are being asked. I think, on the basis of the discussions that we've had with Government officials and with the Deputy Minister and with the library, we remain optimistic that this proposal will be delivered, but clearly the basis of this is the discussion between the library and the Government, and we're not a central part of that discussion.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:39:57
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7732&l=en
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Dai Lloyd
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=167
Lloyd, Dai
<p>Thank you.</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:39:59
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7734&l=en
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. Sorry—Carwyn Jones.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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Cy
2019-02-13T11:40:02
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7737&l=en
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>From what I understand, then, what you're saying is that there is no comparison between Perivale and this scheme.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:40:07
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>No, not at all.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:40:08
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7743&l=en
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Okay. And, secondly, there is no other scheme that we can look at to compare with anywhere else in the UK.</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:40:17
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7752&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Apart from the project Rhys has mentioned already, namely the relationship between the BBC and the British Library.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:40:24
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7759&l=en
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>Yes, the British Library, since 1964.</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:40:27
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7762&l=en
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Okay, thank you.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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253
En
2019-02-13T11:40:29
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7764&l=en
190213-4
4. National Broadcast Archive for Wales
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Vikki Howells.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:40:30
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7765&l=en
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Vikki Howells
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107
Howells, Vikki
<p>Thank you, Chair. So, the figures that I have in front of me here—the library estimates the national broadcasting archive would cost around £9 million to establish, and that around £0.9 million of in-kind contributions would come to the library from BBC Cymru Wales and volunteer time. I'm just wondering whether negotiations have progressed anywhere since the stats that I've got in front of me here—whether you've increased your offer of support or whether it remains the same. </p>
5340
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2019-02-13T11:41:06
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>No, it remains the same. We set out a package of support both in terms of cash support and a range of benefits in kind, along with, obviously, the provision of all the digital copies free of charge for the national library. I believe we set that out to the national library back in the autumn, and that's the package that is still on that table. </p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:41:29
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7824&l=en
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5107
Vikki Howells
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5107
Howells, Vikki
<p>Okay, thank you. </p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:41:32
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7827&l=en
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Carwyn Jones, do you have any further questions?</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>Once more then, just one thing. This is a matter that hasn't been resolved yet. When did this issue come forward? We know that the Deputy Minister has said that he had concerns about how much a contribution is being asked for from the public sector in Wales. When did this become a problem? I don't want a date and a time, but clearly this is a problem now. Was it from the beginning or was it something that was raised after that?</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:42:10
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7865&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>We were aware for some months before the session in January that the Deputy Minister would want to see more of a contribution from the BBC. So, that wasn't unexpected. They hadn't designated a figure, but we were aware that they wanted to see a greater contribution. There were a number of issues for us in that. First of all, the basis of this is a gift from the BBC to the national library. It is unusual for the institution providing the gift to then maintain that collection too. There are also legal issues in terms of state aid. I don't want to go there. But we think that the package on the table here is substantial. It goes way beyond the £60,000 per annum mentioned financially in terms of energy and clearing copyright issues and all of the practical support that would be given to creating this archive. We have explained to the library and to the Government that it wouldn't be possible for the BBC to go beyond the package that is proposed already.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
167229
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2019-02-13T11:43:25
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7940&l=en
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Carwyn Jones
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=102
Jones, Carwyn
<p>So, it's a final offer.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:43:27
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7942&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Yes.</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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Cy
2019-02-13T11:43:28
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7943&l=en
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Great, thank you. David Melding. </p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:43:31
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7946&l=en
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>I just want to ask how the BBC's charter affects this. My understanding is that the BBC is required to maintain an archive and that the archive must be secure, and you also, under the terms of the charter, have to make reasonable provision for public access. Do I understand—Perivale was developed broadly in terms of securing material, and, as you say, three quarters, or whatever it was, is not digitised yet, but then is it the relationship with the British Museum that meets the public access requirements under the current charter? That bit I don't quite understand. Obviously, we're talking about the BBC globally here, rather than just in Wales.</p>
5340
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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En
2019-02-13T11:44:24
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=7999&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>I don't wish—. I'm not going to challenge your understanding of the charter, because I suspect it's rather better than mine. I think the issue of public access is primarily an issue of the online archive that we make available to all audiences. So, we already curate on iPlayer and on other online platforms whole collections of content related to historical events. The physical educational access to the archive is not a charter requirement, in part because the lack of digitalisation across the rest of the BBC prevents it at the moment, and there isn't the capital available to provide the level of access that we can hope to deliver under the Heritage Lottery Fund bid. So, that's my understanding of the public access requirement, rather than it being a physical access. </p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:45:01
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=8036&l=en
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Well, you might want to come back to this. I obviously appreciate you're not necessarily going to—</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:45:16
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Perhaps we could write you a note once I've returned to the charter. </p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:45:18
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=8053&l=en
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Because of our wonderful researchers and legal adviser, I have section 69 of the agreement, and it does state on the archive, under B,</p>
<p>'must give the public reasonable opportunities to visit the archives and view or listen to material kept there, with or without charge (as the BBC thinks fit).'</p>
<p>So, I think it would help us if we just could get—</p>
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2019-02-13T09:31:05
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2019-02-13T11:45:39
http://www.senedd.tv/en/5340?startPos=8074&l=en
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Just to add to that, we obviously get many enquiries from the public about aspects of the BBC archive, and, within the staffing resource we have, we try and facilitate that. But that is on a—. In terms of discretionary effort, obviously, most of the archival effort is focused on broadcast and production. But let me clarify that, because it's—</p>
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>A bit of a practical point in respect of access to the archive is that it's difficult to facilitate access to the archive, and actually quite unattractive to the public, if a lot of the archive isn't digitised. And most—as you've seen from the briefing notes, most of Perivale's archive holdings in AV, and also in audio, are undigitised. But the opportunity here, obviously, is that everything—all of the 180,000 broadcast assets that we have held onto—will be available digitally, so it's far easier to provide public access, because it is available in digital form. </p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>So, I think it's reasonable for me to conclude then that the public access element will get enhanced by the gift to—or whatever, the passing of the material to—the national library, but you still would have been able to achieve that to a large extent, because, as you say, once you digitise, it's enormous in terms of the access you can suddenly have, whereas going physically to one archive is obviously hugely challenging, just on a geographic basis. </p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Apart from the copyright issue, which is that we can only provide access on the basis of educational purpose. </p>
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David Melding
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=169
Melding, David
<p>Yes, okay.</p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Jayne, did you want to ask—? </p>
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Jayne Bryant
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038
Bryant, Jayne
<p>Yes, I was just—. My final question was going to be if it was usual for third parties to pay for the BBC to fulfil its charter requirements, but, obviously, you're disputing—you're saying that you are already fulfilling your charter requirements. </p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>I would never challenge David's expertise on the charter, let alone his researchers. So, let's write a note of clarification on that. </p>
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Jayne Bryant
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038
Bryant, Jayne
<p>Fine. Okay. Thank you. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>If there aren't any more questions, thank you very much for coming in today. If there is anything that we need, except for that note, of course—if there's anything we need to ask you in addition, we will write to you. </p>
<p>Sorry, just one further question. In terms of timescale, the library says that they're meeting on 18 February. If there isn't an agreement in that meeting, will you continue to have discussions? That doesn't stop you from doing—</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>No. Clearly, the timetables are driven by the HLF in terms of the availability of the investment. So, it is tight. But, as I said earlier, I am optimistic that there will be a solution. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
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Sayed, Bethan
<p>But you wouldn't offer this to someone else if the library wasn't able to proceed with this concept. </p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>Well, we could continue the discussion, but, clearly, the opportunity here is that there is core funding available through the HLF, we hope, which would help meet this need. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
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Sayed, Bethan
<p>Does it have to come through HLF? That's what I'm trying to ask.</p>
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Rhodri Talfan Davies
Davies, Rhodri Talfan
<p>No, it doesn't have to come from HLF. My question would be: where would it come from if it weren't to come from HLF?</p>
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Rhys Evans
Evans, Rhys
<p>And the other point is: if, in principle, we offered this collection to somebody else, then it would be a very unfortunate situation where the BBC's collection would sit separately not only to other media collections in Aberystwyth, but also to all the other political and cultural collections and manuscripts in Aberystwyth that help to interpret and make sense of the BBC's collection. We need to see it as a whole picture. </p>
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>Okay. Great. That's a big help. Thank you very much for joining us. </p>
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5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business:
I
<p>Motion:</p>
<p>that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).</p>
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5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business:
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<p>Motion moved.</p>
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5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business:
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
<p>We move on to item 5, which is a motion under Standing Orders to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business. Everyone content?</p>
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5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business:
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Dai Lloyd
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=167
Lloyd, Dai
<p>Content. </p>
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5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business:
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Bethan Sayed
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=159
Sayed, Bethan
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5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business:
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<p>Motion agreed.</p>
<p>The public part of the meeting ended at 11:49.</p>