Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Okay. Good afternoon. This is a meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. We move on to item 1. By way of—. I'll deal with the housekeeping matters first—the usual housekeeping rules apply.

I'll go straight on, then, to apologies. We've had apologies from Suzy Davies, because of other committee commitments. Are there any declarations of interest? If there aren't any, we move straight on to item 2.

This is the first of the legislative consent memoranda that we'll be considering today. This one is on the Fisheries Bill. We have before us the legislative consent memorandum and various advice notes. If I can welcome Lesley Griffiths, the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, together with Gareth Bevington, deputy director, marine and fisheries, of the Welsh Government—happy to go straight into questions? The first one is that this obviously arises as a result of the common frameworks agenda. Are you satisfied that all of the provisions that are within this legislation are necessary and effective in actually delivering on the issue of a common framework?

Yes, we are. We think this Bill creates the primary legislative elements of the UK framework for fisheries management and support. It also provides a uniform set of powers, obligations and objectives. The common framework powers relate to fisheries objectives, joint fisheries statements and the fisheries management plans and the access and licensing provisions. 

Just for the record, would you like to outline what you see as the purpose of the common frameworks—why these common frameworks are necessary?

So, we're taking powers. So, the Welsh Government is taking powers in this Bill, so that—. It's an interim measure until we can bring forward our own Welsh fisheries Bill. So, until this UK Bill is passed, within the current devolution arrangements, an Assembly Bill would only be able to deal with the necessary administrative arrangements in relation to Wales, but not the wider Welsh zone. I'm sure we'll come on to talk about the wider Welsh zone later. So, there would be, I think, a lack of coherence if we did it prior to that.

Okay, if I can go straight in, then, to one of the areas of legislative competence—clause 23, one of the major clauses, which deals with the licensing of foreign fishing vessels in Welsh waters—the UK Government's explanatory memorandum doesn't consider that this requires Assembly consent. The legislative consent memorandum, basically, says that it does. I wonder if you could outline the areas of disagreement between you and the UK Government, what is being done to resolve it, and what potential dispute mechanism there may be to resolve this.

So, discussions are ongoing. I've also written to the Secretary of State, and I understand that the letter is with him now for consideration. Of course, we recognise the conducting of international negotiations is a reserved matter, but the implementation of those international obligations, if they're related to a devolved area of the Assembly—which, obviously, fisheries is—is a matter, I think, for us and for the Assembly. So, our concerns centre around the very broad way in which this power is written. I suppose one example is that, the way it's currently drafted, the Secretary of State could make a decision about Cardigan bay scallops, for instance. Again, in discussions with officials and at a ministerial level, I don't think it's the intention of the UK Government to use them in that way, of course, but who knows what a different Government could do in the future? So, it is—. The UK Government is firmly of the belief that it's a reserved matter and we remain of the view that consent is required.

So, I've reached an agreement with the UK Government to set out in the UK fisheries framework memorandum of understanding more detail on the intended use of the power within clause 23 and what the strengthened consultation processes are. Officials continue to work on this, and, as I say, I have written to George Eustice and I'm expecting a response, which I'll be very happy to share with the committee.

So, could I just ask: is there actually a memorandum of understanding in place yet, or is this something that's still being discussed?

That's still being drafted and discussed, but there will be one.

And will it contain within it a dispute-resolution mechanism?

I'll ask Gareth—.

So, the dispute resolution, we're still considering whether there will be a dispute resolution within the MOU itself or will it be part of the broader dispute-resolution mechanisms that are being put in place between Welsh Government and UK Government and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in particular. So, that's still up for discussion, but we're clear that there needs to be a robust dispute-resolution mechanism in place to allow us to work through that.

This was one of the issues that arose in the previous life of the previous version of a fisheries Bill. Is this a red line area for the Welsh Government?

So, yes, it is, and I've said that I could only recommend it if we sort this issue out. But I am confident that the MOU will be in place by the end of the implementation period. If I've got what we want in the MOU, and we've got that necessary reassurance in place, then I would be happy to recommend it.

Does that mean, then, though, in terms of the Bill itself, that you're confident that there will be amendments that will be made to it that will accommodate the legislative consent objection that is contained in the memorandum?

Yes.

Okay. Clause 4 is another area as well. Do the same issues apply to that in terms of your consideration for change?

Yes. I can understand the link between clause 4 and clause 23, but there's much less in clause 4. That's in relation to the Secretary of State's fisheries statement and concerns the setting of policies on how they'll meet the UK fishing objectives, and it's not our view that this specific provision requires consent. So, there's a contrast—. Clause 23—the Secretary of State will be exercising a function more operational in nature. Under clause 4, he would be setting the UK Government policy, which will outline how he then exercises the UK quotas under clause 23.

Okay. Dai Lloyd.

So, our view is still that these clauses don't require Assembly consent, because they're to do with the regulation of English fishing boats relating to a discards prevention scheme, so, that is a matter for the Secretary of State.

I think—. We continue to work—. So, at official level, you continue to work on this issue and as part of the Bill. I think, again—right, Gareth—those discussions are ongoing. So, I can't really say any more on that at the moment, but I'll be very happy to update committee at the conclusion of those.

Yes. I do think there is sufficient time. Again, I've just mentioned we're working really closely at official level. I'll bring forward a consent motion to the Assembly prior to the last amending stage.

Carwyn Jones.

Good afternoon, Minister.

Good afternoon.

The 2017-19 Bill and this Bill—comparing the two, what would you say the main difference is between those two Bills?

So, I suppose we've got everything we've asked for. The main addition is the inclusion of the provisions in relation to the extension of the legislative competence for this place, in relation to the Welsh zone.

We've also further strengthened the fisheries objectives, the relationship between the joint fishing statement and the Secretary of State's fisheries statement, and the inclusion of the fisheries management plan. I suppose they're the main ones.

So, given that you have everything that you want, I assume that you were happy with your involvement in the process of drafting the Bill.

Yes, I think, certainly at a ministerial level—obviously, George Eustice was the Minister of State, he is now the Secretary of State, and we have a very good relationship, and, at an official level, you'll be very well aware of the relationship, for many years, with the fisheries department. 

Yes. In terms of the possibility of a statement outlining your views on and your involvement in the preparation of the Bill, do you intend to do it for this Bill? I think you did it, didn't you, with the Agriculture Bill.

Yes. It's not quite the same. We've done the LCM—the memorandum—that we tabled for the UK Bill. I think that's got all the information that's certainly required by Standing Orders. However, as we're developing the future fisheries policy—. I'll probably do a written statement on 'Brexit and our seas'; I could also incorporate information and cover the Bill, really, in that statement.

Thank you. In terms of what you wanted to do in terms of seeking amendments to the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, where are we on those, or are we talking here about the extension of competence?

So, when the last Bill was being considered—if you looked then, we were seeking amendments to what's now Schedule 9. That provided powers via amendments to the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. We've secured an amendment to the interim Order-making power. That was set out in section 136 of the 2009 Act. That'll enable interim Orders to be made by us for fisheries management. I think it will allow us to be able to manage fisheries far more dynamically than we can, as you say, across the Wales and the Welsh zone.

In terms of possible future amendments, do you know if the UK Government has any surprises up its sleeve in terms of what they might want to do in the future? Have you heard of anything that may be introduced at a late stage? Obviously, if there's anything introduced at a late stage that requires the Assembly's consent, presumably then there'd have to be a supplementary LCM.

There would have to be a supplementary LCM. I think the answer is 'no'—certainly, no substantive amendments. I suppose there could be a few minor, technical amendments, but we're not expecting anything substantive.

Okay. If I could move on, then, to a Welsh fisheries Bill, I think you said earlier on that the powers in this Bill are intended to be temporary and will, in time, be replaced by a Welsh fisheries Bill. Do you have any idea yet of what a timescale might be for the introduction of such a Bill?

No, not at the present time. But we've been out to consultation on 'Brexit and our seas'. As I said, I'll be bringing forward a written statement in the near future around that. What we want to do is have our own future fisheries policy, and, whilst we've said there will be a fisheries Bill next term in the Assembly, I'm not able to commit in the way that I am with the agricultural Bill, because we know that will be in the first year of the next Assembly.

Could I move on then to—

Can I just ask—

Sorry, Mick.

—just on that? So, with a Welsh fisheries Bill, this legislation before us doesn't, in any way, amend or change the government of Wales legislation, so it doesn't change our competence powers permanently, other than the extent that goes through. But we would be in a position, presumably, with a Welsh fisheries Bill, to completely revise the whole nature of the fisheries policy. We would not be bound by the common framework agreements—there may be areas where, clearly, we would want to, but is there anything in this legislation that would inhibit our ability to legislate in this area of devolved competence?

No, my understanding is not.

Okay, then. Apologies, Carwyn.

No, not at all. If we could move on then to the non-legislative framework and the fisheries management framework agreement, I think I can understand why that is needed. Are we talking here about the creation of what is, in effect, a common fisheries policy for the UK?

No.

Well, what's your—[Inaudible.]—of the fisheries agreement?

I suppose—. I agree, 'the fisheries management framework agreement'—those are not words we use. We talk about the memorandum of understanding. So, I suppose, to add a bit of context, where the joint fisheries statement that is required by the Bill will set out the 'what', the MOU will set out the 'how', so it's the technical details of how the administrations will work together. So, we'll still be subject to a number of international obligations and, for the UK as a whole to meet those obligations, all administrations will have to play their part. So, that's why we're developing the MOU rather than a fisheries management framework agreement; that will set out how the four administrations will work together outside the common fisheries policy—for example, how we set common principles, how we co-ordinate science activities—that's what the MOU will do.

Okay. Isn't it better to have an agreement rather than a memorandum? I think an agreement suggests there has to be agreement. It's not called the fisheries management framework imposition—as it might otherwise be if it came from Whitehall, no doubt. The use of the word 'agreement', doesn't that strengthen your hand in some ways because it requires the active consent of the Government?

I'm going to ask Gareth to come in.

Sure. The common management framework will be in place and the legislative part of that will be via this Bill, so that will be done predominantly through the joint fisheries statement, and then the reserved bit via the Secretary of State's fisheries statement. So, that's the kind of legal basis for it. The MOU then is something that's slightly more dynamic and flexible between the countries on how it is that we enforce the policies that we agree via that framework. So, the framework is there, it just isn't technically called an agreement; but it broadly is, really.

As far as the memorandum is concerned—or the agreement, or the understanding—it's been described as cementing and enhancing the inter-governmental working practices. I assume becuase it is a memorandum, we all know, of course, that that depends on the attitude that's taken, primarily by the UK Government, as to whether they wish to respect it or not.

Yes. I suppose the reason for that is the inter-governmental working arrangements we've had over many, many years in relation to fisheries, which I just referred to—a fisheries council every December. That's why we use those words, because it's based on very constructive and well-established inter-governmental arrangements.

Could I ask you finally about trade? I think you've very appropriately identified the contradiction that exists between the UK Government's responsibility for trade negotiations and then the devolved Governments' implementation of those treaties. Clearly, we know where the legal boundaries lie, but practically there needs to be an understanding between all the Governments in order for the thing to work properly without there being friction.

In terms of trade negotiations about fish, what's your feeling on Wales's voice at the moment in terms of it being heard by the UK Government? Let me put it this way: are the UK Government thinking purely, when it comes to trade, that they are in charge, or are they aware of the fact that what they agree will inevitably have an effect on the operations of devolved Governments?

I think it's probably the latter; that's what they're saying. Obviously, the fisheries Bill will have no part in future trade relationships. We've got concerns about trade relationships, and obviously Eluned Morgan is the Welsh Government Minister that does the trade discussions. I understand that at an official level engagement is very good; at a ministerial level I think it's improving, I think it's fair to say. However, I think we're still awaiting formal confirmation of the role that we'll play in the live free trade agreements discussions. I think this is something we're going to have to watch very closely, but I think it's fair to say we've got concerns.

Thank you.

Can I ask just one additional point on that? With regard to the memorandum of understanding, obviously there's some importance within this process, will we see a copy before a formal legislative consent motion is tabled in the Welsh Assembly?

I certainly can't share it at the moment because it's being drafted. We're going to lay it before the end of the implementation period.

We're anticipating that the MOU will be drafted by the end of the year, so it's unlikely to be before the LCM is laid. I think the assurances that the Minister has sought from the Secretary of State around clause 23—we'll be able to share those reassurances that we'll hopefully have secured.

But the concern that leaves, of course, is on the whole issue of dispute resolution and everything else we are blind in regard to a key background agreement to the legislation itself, which is not really a very satisfactory situation. So, any letter around those particular clauses will need to be pretty clear and pretty robust in terms of the assurances that you're giving today. Is that—? Okay. On to Dai Lloyd. 

We've considered the scope of delegated powers very carefully. We've got to balance the powers to be broad enough to allow fisheries administrations to act very quickly. We need to be very responsive, I think, at all times in relation to our fisheries. We need to be able to respond to scientific advice very quickly. You'll be aware the delegated powers cover a range of areas, all of which are designed to enable us to do that, to effectively manage our fisheries, going forward. 

Setting detail in the Bill on the devolved areas I don't think would be appropriate or very useful, really, in the event that we need to react quickly or respond to any unforeseen circumstances. I will be providing adequate opportunity for scrutiny of these provisions. 

I think it's probably a bit too early to say. I suppose I can give you an example in relation to Schedule 5, the detail of any future arrangements are yet to be determined, for example, but we wanted to secure that as an enabling power that is equivalent to the power secured for the Secretary of State so that we can ensure the most appropriate use of any fishing opportunities, for example. So, again, I just wanted to reassure Members that any consultation process would be open and transparent. 

I think these are really important powers because, sometimes, you need to quickly respond to close a specific area of fisheries, for example. It's much quicker to have a variation of the licence rather than to use statutory instruments. I know it's been done in Scotland recently in relation to juvenile fish. So, it's a really important power.

This is very technical and, obviously, it's a new power and it does give us the powers to make Orders rather than statutory instruments. I am committed to being very open and transparent around this. It will enable measures to be brought forward for Wales and the Welsh zone. We won't be constrained to just marine conservation zones as now. Again, it's a very important part of the toolkit that we've got to protect our marine environment and manage our fisheries effectively. Any Orders that I bring forward will be subject to consultation—I go back to what I was saying in my previous answer—and we've got to publish notice of any Orders made. 

Again, these are technical issues, so what I will do is follow the practice that I did in January when I wrote—. Sorry, in relation to the devolved areas made by UK Ministers under the direct payment to farmers, I did the SI, so I'll follow the same practice. 

Just a couple of final points from me. Within the Bill, there's no sunset clause at all. Is this something that you're going to seek to have inserted into the legislation?

Not at the moment, because I don't have a timeline for the Welsh fisheries Bill. So, again, when we come on to the agriculture Bill, obviously in the agriculture Bill we have a sunset clause, because I've got a timeline for—

Wouldn't that be a reason, though, for at least having something in there, even if it turns out become unnecessary in due course, because we don't know what the timetable is or when there's going to be a Welsh fisheries Bill? Would that not be something that consideration should be given to?

We did consider it, but that was the decision we took. We can revisit. 

We can certainly look at it again, but our view was that having the sunset clause without knowing exactly where the fisheries Bill would be in the Welsh Government and the Assembly's timetable might make that sunset clause slightly difficult for us. 

Wouldn't the exact logic apply, though, on the basis that we don't have the timeline so all the more reason to actually have a sunset clause within it, because at least it gives you certainty as to this legislation, rather than something that will carry on indefinitely until such time as there is legislation? Doesn't it set a timetable also in terms of the extent to which UK Government in terms of common areas actually comes to a conclusion and agreement on, particularly those areas in dispute?

Yes. We can revisit that and, again, I can write to the committee. 

When do you think we might have a timetable for the fisheries Bill?

At the moment, I don't have any timeline at all, but as I said I will be bringing forward a written statement because we're much further behind in future fisheries policy development than we are with the agricultural Bill. So, at the moment, I don't have a timeline, but I will be making a written statement. Maybe by then I will have more information. 

Okay. The final point is just again in terms of some of the codification issues, accessibility of the legislation, and so on. How will this fit within the codification? Because it will be a UK Bill, but nevertheless it will relate to exercise of powers by Welsh Government and Welsh Government Ministers—again, without any timetable on it. Have you given any consideration as to how it might fit within the codification programme?

Obviously, when we've got our own fisheries Bill, that will fit in with what the Counsel General's doing around codification. This one will be on the UK Parliament website. Any statutory instruments that we make will also be published. But, obviously, in due course they will be replaced by a Welsh fisheries Bill, and will be on our own website. 

Okay. Minister, thank you very much for your evidence. That brings us to the end of that, slightly ahead of time. There will be a transcript in due course. I think we're going to adjourn for five minutes now to change over for the purpose of the agriculture Bill. So, thank you very much for your attendance and for your officials' attendance as well.

Thank you. 

We're going to adjourn now for five minutes. 

This is a reconvened meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. We're on to the second of our legislative consent memoranda and I'm glad that we still have with us Lesley Griffiths AM, Minister for the Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, together with her officials, James Owen, deputy director for land management reform with the Welsh Government and Lam Tran, Brexit policy adviser for the Welsh Government. Are you happy, Minister, to go straight into questions?  

Yes. 

Again, this is another piece of legislation in respect of the objective of achieving a common legislative framework. I wonder if you would outline what the key components of the common framework are that the legislation is seeking to address. 

This Bill, again, extensive discussions and all four administrations think it's best managed through non-legislative intergovernmental co-ordination, So, the areas that may be included in the agricultural support framework are likely to be market intervention, data collection and sharing arrangements and also some clarity for cross-border holdings. So, again, officials are working very closely to ensure effective co-ordination on this Bill. 

Thank you very much. The main clauses relating to Wales are contained in Schedule 5 of the Bill. When we considered this previously in the previous drafts, they were contained in what was then clause 3, and there's quite a marked difference. I wonder if you'd care to outline what those marked differences are—what you think the main differences are between what was previously considered and what is now, and what the reasoning behind that is. 

I suppose there are a few things. There's been quite a lot of time that has passed since the original UK agricultural Bill was published back in I think it was the autumn of 2018. As you say, we've also taken evidence from yourselves, again, and listened to your views. We've got more certainty about our own proposals in relation to future agricultural policy. I've removed the  broad 'new financial assistance powers' from what was Part 1 of the Wales Schedule. That would have allowed Welsh Ministers to operate new financial assistance schemes. Again, that will now be provided as part of the Welsh Agricultural Bill. We've been out to consultation twice: we had 'Brexit and our land' then we had 'Sustainable Farming and our Land'. So, as I say, we're far more ahead, now, than when the Bill was first published by the UK Government. 

Okay. And in the preparation of the Bill, to what extent has Welsh Government been involved in the construction of the Bill and the drafting of the Bill, or with regard to, I suppose, these specific instructions for the construction of this particular Bill? 

We've worked very closely on this Bill, officials and ministerially, and everything's discussed and scrutinised by Welsh Government officials; I'm kept updated as we've gone through. As we've just said in previous answers, some of the—well, not 'some', there have been significant changes in some of the provisions from the original Bill. I've added a sunset clause—that's another area that's very different—and the removal of the powers from the Wales Schedule. The addition of a sunset clause is because we've given explicit requests for those. 

Could I ask why you've insisted on a sunset clause in this legislation, as opposed to the one that we considered earlier—the fisheries Bill?

I suppose because we felt that we were so much more further forward. We thought that hopefully, that would remove the doubt that we would be having that Bill by the end of 2024. 

Okay. I'm sure there will be further questions on that. If we can go to Dai Lloyd.  

I've made very clear my disagreements with the UK Government's assessment of the provisions. I've got correspondence with the previous Secretary of State and with the current Secretary of State. So, discussions are still ongoing. I do expect some movement, and I'm waiting to hear back from the Secretary of State.

Yes, I have, and I've got it in writing.

Yes, there is.

It's exceptionally uncertain times for the agricultural sector, so I thought the UK Bill—it's a really important vehicle to be able to provide farmers with some very much needed stability, I think. Part of this Bill is our ability to pay our farmers. So, it's really important that we have that effective operation, also, of the internal market in the UK following our departure from the EU. But as I've said all along, they're only transitional powers.

I kind of pre-empted that question by saying that two main areas for me were the continuation of financial support for our farmers and the effective operation of the internal market once we leave the EU.

Subject to getting the sufficient funding for our farmers, for which we still haven't got that assurance, I intend to make a provision under paragraph 3 in Schedule 5 to extend the basic payment scheme to 2020-21. I thought it was really important to make that statement very early for our farmers. But, as I say, it does depend on getting the funding from the UK Government. So, that's an example.

Again, I've worked very closely with the UK Government to ensure, where possible, the powers are subject to affirmative resolution procedure. Some of the provision is very narrow in scope. So, the one you referred to—. There is one around agricultural tenancy disputes, for instance. So, I do consider that it's appropriate for the negative resolution procedure. But I do think, on the whole, this Bill contains namely affirmative procedures for the high proportion of the powers. So, obviously, they'll be fully scrutinised.

I mentioned before that I think we're far more advanced regarding the agricultural Bill. I've got the assurance that it will be in the first year of the Bill. I have committed to publishing a White Paper by the end of this year. As I say, the end of 2024 was chosen to dispel any doubt of the temporary nature of the powers in the Wales schedule taken from this UK Bill, but it does obviously allow that adequate time for the development of our own Welsh Bill.

Thank you. Carwyn Jones.

Yes. Can I ask you, about changes to the Bill, if I may? In paragraph 88 of the LCM, you state—or rather the LCM states: 

'There are outstanding concerns regarding the provisions in the Bill for the identification and traceability of animals (clause 32), agricultural tenancies (clause 34 and Schedule 3), and the regulation of organic products (clause 36).'

I wonder if you could tell us what those concerns are.

Okay. So, in relation to the agricultural tenancies and the concerns that we've had, I understand that just over the weekend, we've now had some assurance around that. We've done the policy diligence and we've had a write around, and we're confident that that's now sorted. In relation to—. You mentioned organic products—

Yes.

—and the identification and traceability of animals. At the moment, there's no requirement for the Secretary of State to seek our consent. I don't agree with that. I don't think anybody here would agree with it. We don't think it's acceptable. So, again, officials are working with the UK Government and the other devolved administrations to try and progress an amendment to that. There were also a number of technical amendments, so those discussions are ongoing. I don't know if James can add anything.

Yes, so we're working quite closely with officials on that request. We've put that in ministerial correspondence, and the Minister's written quite clearly to the Secretary of State on two occasions now, making it absolutely clear that those provisions are essential. We've had some fairly positive conversations at official level, and we're hopeful to make some progress on that in the near future.

So are they red lines, those three clauses?

Yes.

Okay. Clause 32 I think I'm right in saying was amended at Committee Stage in the House of Commons, specifically in relation to Wales. Was that at your request?

Yes. We specifically asked to bring those forward.

Okay. And in terms of amendments made to the Bill generally at Committee Stage, what's been the Welsh Government's involvement in influencing those amendments?

So, you just heard, we've worked very closely at official level and ministerial level. I think they'll reflect the previous discussions we've had in this committee, and they are really the product of the close working between the Welsh Government and the UK Government.

And in terms of the UK Government's sleeves, and what might be up them, anything at all that you're concerned about at this stage?

No, I don't think—. I do think— . You have to take the discussions at face value, of course, but because at official level, the scrutinising of anything that they're bringing forward is very intense, everything that we've agreed—I mentioned just over the weekend around the rural development programme, for instance, we've had movement on that. So, we're not expecting anything substantive, but obviously, a close watch.

And amendments have been made, haven't they, since we last looked at this, so will there be supplementary LCMs?

I'm expecting amendments to be made at the Report Stage, so yes, my intention is to lay one single LCM at the end, and I think that's been agreed, Chair, with committee clerks, that we would do that.

Okay. Thanks, Chair.

Just a couple of additional questions from myself: with regard to the timing of an agricultural Welsh Bill during the sixth Assembly, the sunset clause is surviving to 2024. Is the intention to introduce legislation, or—I mean, I appreciate that there'll be a new Government then—early in 2020-21, or do you have any view of a potential timetable?

So, you're right, obviously there will be a new Government, but at the current time, the proposal is to bring it in year one, so, yes, 2021. And I think the policy has been developed. We've had two consultations, so at the moment we've been moving—. The 'Sustainable Farming and Our Land' consultation closed. A significant number of responses. I'm just about to start the co-design of the sustainable farming scheme. So, we're well ahead on development for that. So, I think, yes, 2021.

And would fisheries probably follow after that or—?

Yes. Fisheries is definitely, definitely after.

I appreciate it's only the thinking at the moment, and, obviously, there are many things that might actually change.

Yes, but as I said in the previous evidence, we're nowhere near along the line of development for the future fisheries policy.

And in terms of—. You did refer earlier to the red lines, but just to clarify what we mean by 'red lines': if those can't be satisfactorily resolved, they would effectively lead to Government basically declining to give legislative consent. 

Yes, and I've made that very clear to the Secretary of State. I've said it at—

This is obviously a major test, then, of what is being suggested with regard to where Sewel stands at the moment as well.

Yes, absolutely. So, previously, one of my red lines—and I probably said this when I came to committee last time—was the red meat levy. I made it very clear that if that wasn't sorted then there was no way I could—and we got movement on it. So, I think relationships are good, but of course it is absolutely a test.

And in a specific Welsh Bill, I know you've partly commented on it, but what would be the main area of change that you would want to make in a Welsh Bill that isn't covered by this particular legislation?

So, the financial scheme is one. I suppose that's the main one. We've made it very clear—. I don't want to go too much into policy, but obviously we've made it very clear about public money for public goods. So, that would be—. I suppose the main one would be the financial scheme.

And, again, I suppose the final point, as I've made previously with regard to other legislation, is that the issue of codification becomes quite complicated. This is a major area of Government work, agriculture, and indeed fisheries accessibility at the moment. It won't be, I presume, as you've previously indicated, through the UK Government legislation. So, there'd be nothing that would fit in within codification until well after this legislation, the Welsh Bill, has been prepared and is proceeding.

Absolutely. It's the same, as I say. I'm very much committed to what the Counsel General's doing around consolidation.

Are there any other questions you want to ask?

Well, Minister, we've very efficiently concluded all the key points. Of course, the nature of this committee is technical rather than policy driven. There will be a transcript with you in due course. Thank you and your officials for your attendance.

Thank you very much.

We have a number of additional items to move on to now. I think we're on to item 4, the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020. We have before us the report, the regulations and the explanatory memorandum. This instrument makes amendments to the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Wales) Regulations 2011. The amendments make provision in relation to importers' liability for expenses incurred in dealing with the measures imposed on them following the import of a non-compliant consignment. I think there is a merits point to be identified.

It's one merits point on pack page 138, which noted that the explanatory memorandum wasn't quite as clear as it could have been when compared to the explanatory note that comes with the regulations. The Government accepts the point, but says that when you read the regulations, the explanatory note and the explanatory memorandum together, the picture's quite clear enough and there's no need to change the explanatory memorandum.

Okay, right. Shall we note that unless there are any other comments or observations?

We'll move on to 4.2: the Health Protection (Notification) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020. Again, you'll have all the relevant documentation in front of you plus correspondence from the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd. This instrument amendments the Health Protection (Notification) (Wales) Regulations 2010. Those regulations place obligations on various persons for the purpose of preventing, protecting against, controlling or providing a public health response to the incidence or spread of infection or contamination. These regulations are being made to address the public health risk of coronavirus disease—COVID-19. Again, one point identified.

Simply noting a breach of the 21-day rule and the public health reasons given by the Government for that breach. 

Yes, I think we note those and accept those. So, unless there are any other comments then, we move on to item 5, papers to note.

We have a letter from the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd with regard to the finance Ministers' quadrilateral. So, we've had a letter in response back very, very quickly. I think that letter is really there just to be noted. It relates to the meeting that took place on 10 March. Any comments or observations? No.

In which case we move on to item 5.2: letter from the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, the Official Controls (Animals, Feed and Food, Plant Health Fees etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020. Letter from the Minister dated 10 March, and a letter in response to our letter of 2 March. I think there were a number of items that we've identified that needed correction. Any comments or observations on that? 

Corrections noted. 

Okay, corrections noted. [Laughter.] 

So, then in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Do Members agree? That's agreed. We now move into private session.