Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Oh gosh, how the morning is starting.

Yes. Could I ask about—bore da, Elin—

Bore da, John.

—the place of history and specifically Welsh history and the Welsh perspective within that humanities area of learning and experience and the extent to which you think very local history is a good way of engaging pupils and how that can then be related to Welsh history, British history and, indeed, international history?

Diolch, John. You've put your finger on one of the weaknesses in the current situation, I think, because very many schools do some local history and they can do it very well. Very many schools do some aspects of Welsh history—in my view, varying. But what you don't see, I think—but as I say, there's no evidence—you don't see a joined-up approach.

However, I did see, this year, in one school, a special school dealing with children with complex and multiple needs—I saw some brilliant work on just this thing. They introduced the children when they were young—. When they entered school, they were introduced to the immediate environment of the school. Then, they were encouraged to use their senses to observe and to begin to make some conclusions. Then they looked at the slightly further environment of the school. It's a very lucky school in that it's got a police station across the road, it's next to a rugby club and a public park and a railway station is very near. They talked then about life in the village and in that community, and people from the various services came in to speak to the children, and they visited some of these sites.

They then looked at the shops in the local community and where the goods came from, who the people were who worked in the shop. And then they went to the railway station and they looked at the coal, the steam trains and the coal industry that had shaped the valley where they lived. And I thought that was an exemplary piece of work because it showed how children with complex and profound needs can be encouraged to feel confident with their own environment and know something, appropriate to age and abilities, about that environment and set it in its wider Welsh context. It was tremendous. It was an inspiring thing to see, and I do hope there are many schools in Wales that do just that. They ground the pupils in their immediate environment, make them feel confident and secure and to know who they are and where they're from, and then they expand their horizons. 

So, what would be you view then, Elin, in terms of the new curriculum and how it can encourage—is it likely to lead to that sort of teaching of history in our schools? What would be the difference compared to life before the new curriculum? 

I don't think there would be that much difference myself. I think good teaching is good teaching. I was looking at the work of the schools this year from the standpoint of the new curriculum, and this school, I thought, gave examples of how you could work in every aspect of humanities, because they were addressing every aspect of the humanities, most effectively in the work they were doing with the pupils.

I see. 

'I like this new curriculum; I can teach what I want.'

‘Well, haven’t you been doing that for years?’

‘Yes, but now I can justify it.’

Like Carwyn, I was educated in the ancien régime before the 1988 reforms, even, and—

Scarcely believe—[Laughter.]

I will now admit that I have never taught the curriculum, I only devised it, because I was teaching and taught under the ancien régime.

At Dwr-y-Felin Comprehensive School, I did history up to A-level, I did geography up to A-level, and you had to take questions on Welsh history. An excellent history department and really well taught, and geography the same. So, we studied the Ice Age via the Neath valley, the River Neath and the incredible terminal moraine you have at Jersey Marine—all this was there, visible, and I suspect that's always been the heart of good teaching. But since that time—and the 1988 reform I suppose really took it even further, in being a very descriptive approach to a curriculum, content-driven—we now seem to be looking at an approach to teaching rather than saying: the curriculum needs to contain X, Y, Z; though it will contain certain aspects. Under those circumstances, is there a greater danger that the Welshness of our experience is lost? So, amongst teachers that have less confidence, for instance—they may have been brought up in another part of the United Kingdom—they'll tend to teach Welsh history as an example of the British history that occurred in Wales. Is this is a danger?

It's happening—. I think, but there's no sound evidence—I think that happens in some schools now. They will teach popular risings and they may teach Merthyr, they may teach Newport. It's unlikely they'll teach Merthyr and Newport together as examples of popular risings. They'll put it in the wider context of Chartism in Britain.

And they may not teach the place of the Welsh language in those rights, which is key in both and shaped some language policies—there's no doubt about that if you read the magistrates' views of the Chartists and their 'wicked use of Welsh' so that the forces of law and order, or some of them, couldn't understand them. The fact that they were monoglot Welsh speakers is kind of lost, isn't it?

So, are you confident that the approaches that will be taken in the new curriculum will give us—? I know, I think it's marvellous—many people must come into Wales and just have a new sense of intellectual curiosity as they grasp the richness of Welsh history, so the fact that you're born in Loughborough or something is neither here nor there, if you've got that confidence and the teaching materials and training is available to you. But is there a danger they're not and, even amongst some people, perhaps, who were born in Wales who have not been in a particularly strong school in terms of seeing the Welsh content as integral—? Are you confident in the new approach that, if these gaps currently exist, they will be filled?

Well, if the gaps currently exist—we don't know—the opportunity is there, but how that opportunity will be interpreted by teachers, I cannot predict. I worry, because I have seen examples of misinterpretation of, you know, mindful of Cwricwlwm Cymreig, 'If I write the date on the board in Welsh or put any Welsh on the walls of the classroom, I've done the Welsh perspective.' That is always a danger. Carwyn Jones was kind enough to refer to the way in which versions of history can be presented—and misrepresented sometimes. Carwyn, the new curriculum is, as I say, so detailed, so broad, gives so much freedom to teachers to develop their own teaching materials that it provides an opportunity to pay lip service to it if you want to do it. You've put your finger on it in saying about the resources, the materials, the training to encourage teachers to see the possibilities in their own area and to go beyond that area, of course. The potential is there, definitely, but we don't know really what is the basis on which we will be building for this new curriculum. We don't know what teachers are making of the current curriculum, in my view.

Well, that's very helpful; I think it gives us a lot to reflect on. Just coming back to content a minute, I'm fairly relaxed about an approach that is flexible, because you can get so descriptive that you can't make these wide connections. And I can see how—I mean, geography has a big impact on politics and history and economics. More integration there makes sense—

And religion. Those all come together in humanities. The opportunities are there.

But it doesn't entirely take us away from the need to look at content, in my view. I put it to you that there are certain events in our history that are so axial that they have to be studied, if you want to develop an understanding. The Reformation is an obvious one, which, even in my time, I must say, I didn't think was always taught as well as it should be. You can't understand history, political development, the concept of self, scientific discovery, Welsh language and the fact that it did survive because it became the public language in essence and of religion—

And Northern Ireland—with Brexit and all that, that's a live issue.

So, are there certain key turning points that really we can't allow discretion over?

I think the curriculum requires you to have discretion over it. The new curriculum requires discretion. The previous curriculum was prescriptive, and I don't have evidence that it was being taught as I had intended in some schools. I've got no evidence to prove it one way or another. Some evidence I have suggests it wasn't. Other evidence suggests great stuff is being done, but it's a prescriptive curriculum. I don't know how the new curriculum is likely to develop.

But your question really is to do with: are there key events? Are there turning points? I commissioned two books on turning points in Welsh history, about 10 years ago, and it proved extremely difficult to identify turning points because history is a process. I think what you can do, though, is to say that there are certain key periods in Welsh history when there are developments that are central to the formation of an individual identity in Wales, and interestingly, two of them are periods that are not covered in the current curriculum, or the former curriculum, and that is the time immediately after the fall of Rome in the fifth and sixth centuries, which we call, in shorthand, the Age of the Saints. We don't study it at all in schools.

Or it's taught early, if it is—young primary school pupils who are least equipped to deal with those deep time events.

Yes, and it's not really—that early period isn't there. You've got the Stone Age, the early ages of stone, bronze, iron, and the Iron Age is usually interpreted as the Celts, and you've got the Romans, and then you've got about six centuries and then you've got 1066. I would say that that age is a formative period, and also the eighteenth century, because that was the time of nonconformity developing in Wales as a powerful influence in the mainstream of Welsh society, and that is where you get the development of the language. But I've noted two periods, they both have to do with religion, and I think you've put your finger on the Reformation as well. These are all religious issues, and they reflect how well you could have religion and history and geography, remembering Professor Bowen and the Saints, Seaways and Settlements in the Celtic Lands, how the dedications of churches reflected travel in that early period. There would be a possibility of doing it, but the resources are very few, they're not appealing as they stand, and I think that there is a danger of having a tick-box mentality if you list certain events or individuals who must be taught. It's a question of interpretation again, I'm afraid.

Diolch yn fawr. I wasn't going to ask this question of you, I was going to ask it of other witnesses, but it's now become relevant off the back of what David has said. You haven't used the phrase 'must haves' in terms of what has to be part of a pupil's knowledge when they study history, but you referred there to seminal moments. Quite right, history is a process. David mentioned the Reformation, and that's what I did, but my wife's experience of being taught the Reformation in a Belfast Catholic grammar school was not quite the same as the way it was taught here, in terms of who was on the correct side of the argument, shall we say. But are there, then—you've just alluded to it yourself—leaving aside the question of how to interpret those events, are there particular events in Welsh history that you think—I'm not asking you to name them all—that you could point to that are essential as part of a pupil's knowledge if they're going to understand Welsh history properly?

I'll give you a way of starting. Wynford Vaughan-Thomas or Gwyn Alf? 

When Was Wales? was Gwyn Alf.

Exactly.

I remember watching it, Bethan.

Just finally, you mentioned the—well, Stone Age, you said, but the Neolithic revolution is probably the most significant thing that happened to humankind and, of course, it's prehistory in a sense, unrecorded. And it's a time when Britain wasn't, Wales wasn't. And if you want the sense that these concepts are always in the making, do you think that part of our human story is relatively poorly dealt with in education?

I don't have the evidence, David. I go back to this: I don't have any evidence. Again, I've seen some good teaching on that. When I was working in the National Museum and the Stone Age galleries were my classroom, yes, I saw some excellent teaching on that, but it will again depend on the interest of the pupils and the interest of the teachers, and the resources available. So I would agree with you, yes, the Neolithic revolution and the development of farming and everything that led from that—warfare starts then, and so on—is hugely important, but there is something to be said, perhaps, for teaching history backwards, for children to make sense of where they are and what is around them and how that was shaped. And the older they get, the more they will understand. 

I completely agree. I've made this point myself. If you're going to be chronological, roughly, we ought to invert it, so the youngest children start with the most recent stuff. 

And that's what was happening in the foundation phase. They were starting with the most recent stuff and giving them an understanding of their local area at the moment, and then looking out to the distance. 

Yes. Elin, we've touched on much already, including what confidence we might be able to have in terms of what's being taught, how it's being taught, and how that balances with the new freedoms of the new curriculum, and so on. What would you say about the need for accountability in the new curriculum and how that's best taken forward?

Well, given the strength of feeling there appears to be in Wales about this topic, teaching Welsh history, I think there has to be a great deal more accountability, because I'm extremely worried—I hope my written submission made that clear—I'm extremely worried about the potential for this to become a very divisive issue, with teachers perceived not to be doing what the public wants them to do, teachers feeling under pressure to deliver unrealistic expectations, to teach in a way that they don't want to teach. So, I am worried that this is a divisive issue. I do think there needs to be more accountability, because I don't think it's good that we, in this committee and I have who have been so involved with the curriculum over the years, don't really know what is being taught in schools in Wales.

Would you have any specific suggestions, Elin, in terms of how that necessary accountability might be achieved, compared with what Welsh Government have set out? 

When we wrote the report on the Cwricwlwm Cymreig, we talked about having champions for Welsh history and people who could promote the idea, so that instead of prescribing, instead of forcing teachers to tick boxes again, you have people who will be able to give examples of good practice, will feel confident in doing that, will know where the resources are, and they'll also know how to interpret the material history that exist in all our communities of how that community developed and why. So, I would urge the idea of people who act as almost interpreters of history again within their own localities, so that they can advise teachers, help teachers, so that teachers will feel confident in responding to queries about what they're doing, and will feel that they are accountable not to them over there, but to somebody who they know and who comes into their school and is able to advise them and support them.   

Okay. In terms of resources again, which we've touched on, Elin, and Wales-specific resources to support the teaching of history in this way, what would you say are the key points there? What needs to change in terms of the availability of those resources?  

I thought you were going to finish now, John. I mean, you're opening up a whole new—[Laughter.] Okay. I commissioned resources to teach Welsh history and teach history in the schools of Wales for many years. They did not get used by very many schools. There are good resources out there. There are good resources on the web. They are not promoted commercially in the way resources that teach English history in schools in Wales have been promoted over the last five or six years, possibly longer. So, there needs to be investment, I'm afraid, in producing appropriate resources for the new curriculum, but they would be, I think, locally appropriate resources. That's why this idea of people who work in their locality to bring things together to help teachers to make the most of the history, the geography, the religious background, the business and the social aspects of the curriculum in their area. I think there's a need for a human face to these resources. They will know what resources are there—these people should know what resources are there—and how they are best used by that particular school. 

I was fortunate in having a wonderful history adviser, as they called them in the old days, David Maddox, and David used to come into the school and he would always praise what I was doing, and always show me a better way of doing it, and refer me to, 'Have you read so and so? This is a good book, Elin.' So, I'm maybe looking back too much, but I think that we need a more human face, we need more links between the community and the school that teaches its children, and a closer relationship to help us through the potentials of the new curriculum.  

Okay, Elin. Diolch yn fawr. 

No, I don't think there's been a tremendous amount of change. I think some schools, particularly the new three to 16, and three to 19 schools, have started to look at their curriculum, and to try to align what they presently do, based on the resources they have, with their interpretation of Donaldson and how Donaldson will work once the consultation period has come to an end. 

Teachers who have spoken to me, and then to NASUWT, have expressed concerns that, quite possibly, there could be a dilution of history as a single academic discipline, particularly as they are moving into a humanities-based curriculum, whereby they're trying to split curriculum time and availability of teachers and other resources in order to meet the needs of how they perceive the curriculum to be. Now, that worries me, and it worries NASUWT, because, obviously, it's going to have a long-term impact on the status of history and history teaching, particularly when you get into teaching post 14 at GCSE and advanced level. I've taught history for 30 years in various comprehensive schools, and I'm going to be biased, obviously, because we will push our subject and endeavour to make sure that what we are teaching is broad and balanced, with an emphasis, obviously, on Welsh and national history, and setting that in the context of European and international history. 

But, yes, there has been change, to answer the question. Not a significant amount of change—I think schools are trying to hold on to what they currently do, based on their resources and so on, but they are very mindful that the status of history will change significantly, I think, in the short and long term. 

I agree. Obviously, as historians, we are very much evidence based, and I think it has been very difficult to determine what's being done now, what needs to be done in future, without having that professional survey, if you like. So, whether Estyn does it, or another body, I think it's imperative that we look at where we are at this present time in order to facilitate planning and forward thinking on this. I also agree with Ioan in terms of the pressures being placed on teachers. I know we've had the pioneer schools, whereby the expectation was that time and various other resources would be put in place to ensure that schools were being prepared on a sort of hub basis, to prepare for the new curriculum. And yet not a lot of co-ordination has been done there. And I think what we are seeing in various schools—particularly the new schools—is that there's an anticipatory approach, and clearly there's got to be a consolidation of what's being done in order to bring everybody together and work within a framework. So, yes, I think a survey of where we are at the moment and what's needed in terms of resources and the expected results is essential. It takes me back 30 years to when the national curriculum came in, and we had huge amounts of documentation, which was simply unworkable. And then schools were endeavouring to do their best in order to interpret what was in front of them. And I hope that we're not going to be put in a position where that burden is placed on the workforce, and on school management, in order to implement this curriculum.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I wanted to ask about the place of history, and specifically Welsh history and the Welsh perspective, within that humanities area of learning and experience. Mark, you've already expressed concerns quite generally. What do you think should be the position?

Well, I've tried to prepare for this—I've obviously read the statutory documentation and so on, and I've tried to dovetail that into my own experience. There should be significant opportunities to enhance Welsh history and culture in schools from a Welsh perspective, obviously. But, in order for that to happen, there have to be certain guarantees. History as a specialist subject and discipline needs to be respected and its future guaranteed. I think—the issue for me is the specific place of history within the context of teaching humanities. When I started teaching, and, in fact, when I trained as a teacher, I was qualified as a history teacher and a teacher of integrated humanities. That was an experiment that lasted a couple of years in England, where I began teaching. And then, when I began teaching in the school in the Rhondda, it's something that lasted for a short while, then became unworkable. So, we need to make sure that history is valued as a specialised subject. 

We also need to ensure that specialist teaching will be retained and to dispel the myth that we're all teachers of history, and that all humanities teachers can teach history equally well. That may well be the case, but they will need to be trained and resourced to do that. And we need to ensure that curriculums based around the areas of learning afford sufficient time and facility to deliver history on a cross-cutting basis, and there need to be strong interdisciplinary links between the humanities subjects. And, more importantly, we need to have suitable resources and continuous professional development. So, yes, there will be opportunities for Welsh history and culture to be taught from a Welsh perspective, but, again, that needs to be very, very carefully planned, and, again, I think it’s a case of valuing history as a subject and valuing the expertise of those who deliver it to get the best out of the children.

I'm glad you came on, Rhys, to that sort of local, Welsh, British and international aspect. Is there anything more you'd like to say about how that should be taken forward in the new curriculum—you know, the opportunities that the new ways of working will bring?

In many ways, I don't think we should be concerned at all. The opportunity is going to be there at a local level and working out from the locality, from the cynefin, and forward. The vast majority of history teachers already do that effectively, and what they miss out on perhaps is that Welsh perspective, the place of Wales in the history of that individual—it often goes straight to the great political discussions of Britain and great political and religious discussions in Europe. What we need to do is bring it back and make it relevant from the perspective of the individual pupil and the individual teacher. Of course, that is something that might well need to come from not a retraining of teachers as such, because they are trained as history teachers, but they need to be given the opportunity to investigate and collate all the information that's needed in order to present a coherent history to the individual students.

But something I've emphasised in my written representation is that we need to look at qualifications. What most history teachers do in secondary schools is gear those pupils up to achieve the best possible results at GCSE. Now, I'm personally very much of the opinion that we need to change the GCSE wholesale. Yes, it will mean a lot of work, a lot of added pressures. However, I'm not sure if it's fit for purpose as it is at the moment, and definitely I don't think it's fit for purpose for the new curriculum. But also we have a GCSE, and A-level, at the moment where tokenism is a major issue. I have some information regarding how those specifications were put together, and it's a matter of, 'Oh well, let's see where can stick Welsh history in here. Where are the Welsh examples we can provide?'

We need to change our outlook, our viewpoint. So, we need to look at, for example, what happens in Scotland with the Highers where they have two exam papers; one is based on Scottish history and one is based on the wider world, with very important aspects of Scottish history as part of that exam paper. They also, of course, have an assignment, which means that we're looking at it from a different perspective. Now, I don't want to see a situation where we say, 'We have to look at that event'—a prescribed list is not the way forward—but we need to make sure that our students are ready and able to cope with the qualifications, which should be changed, and we need to make sure as well that the teachers are provided with ample opportunity to develop the resources to go along with that. And that is what our focus needs to be.

Now, I know this isn't what this curriculum is all about. It's about developing the importance of the local and developing local—. I don't mean local history or geography, but local answers to the curriculum. The major concern of specialist teachers, be they history teachers or, perhaps, geography teachers, is that we don't know what teachers are going to be held accountable for. At the moment, we've got a system where accountability is all based on GCSE results—and yes, we can look at value-added, but GCSE results, and if those GCSE results aren't where they should be, then there is a major issue with (a) that department and (b) that school. We need to make sure that teachers are aware what the path is and, at the end of that path, we need to make sure that Welsh history is examined correctly.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Is there anything you would add to that, Mark, or—?

I agree wholeheartedly with what my colleague says. But I would like to also make the point that Welsh history is firmly embedded in schools in Wales, and particularly in key stage 3 and certainly in key stages through the primary level. When we've planned curriculums and drawn up schemes of learning, there's been a significant emphasis on the teaching of Welsh history and making sure that topics are carefully chosen to enthuse children at particular stages of their education. So, for example, with year 9, towards the end of key stage 3, we are very mindful of recruitment and setting down the foundations in terms of knowledge and understanding and skills. So, we will select topics from a Welsh dimension in order to allow those children to access their local history and make national and international links. So, for example, you'd be looking at popular protests, the Merthyr rising, Chartism and so on. You'd be looking at the development of industrialisation and the consequences of that. And looking at it from a humanities perspective, I think that provides very, very strong opportunities for a cross-curricular approach to studying humanities, and history has a key role in that.

But I will reiterate the point made just now that it is essential that we don't lose our way, if you like, in terms of the skills and the concepts and the training up of our children, our students, in order to meet the needs of GCSE and A-level, to maintain that singular status, if you like, of history moving forward. My feeling is—and, again, I think this has leaked a little bit from the WJEC—that quite possibly with GCSE there's going to be a move towards humanities anyway, so perhaps the two will dovetail. But, that is a concern, and I think we seriously need to make sure that we don't lose our way with history as a subject, where the children in school can sometimes become bored with it and it loses value. 

My axial dates would be slightly different. [Laughter.]

And therein lies the issue.

The Stone Age.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Can I say, first of all, how disappointed I am to hear two historians who are yet to disagree? [Laughter.] But, based on what you've been saying, I have to say that, for me, one of the issues that we have to look at very carefully is the issue of flexibility. I think it is right that you need to trust teachers to be flexible, but there has to be guidance. People have to operate within a structure—that much is true.

There are different versions of history, and it's absolutely right that students should be exposed to different versions of history. There are some who would argue that Cromwell was a proto-democrat and fought against royal absolutism. There are others who would say that he was a military dictator. If you go to Ireland, you get a very different view of Cromwell. But it's important that those are taught.

How can we ensure that that happens? Flexibility is important—that's true. You've already said that there are no 'must-haves', in terms of what should be taught as part of any history curriculum, but how do we get the balance right between being too flexible on the one hand and being flexible enough to make sure that students get a good grounding in all history, not just Welsh history, and that we achieve a level of consistency across Wales?

That is the big question, obviously, and that's why you're asking it, I'm sure. I think it's going to be very, very difficult. Guidelines need to be given, and that will go against the spirit of the new curriculum. That is a must. Unfortunately, whether we need an inspection regime or not is another question, but, if we do have one, it means that inspectors should be asked to ensure that all aspects of history are taught.

Because of the depth and breadth of the humanities document, we have got a big issue in that respect. I would personally like to see the requirement of qualifications being made clear from an early stage in order to allow teachers to prepare. They are governed, time and time again, by the requirement of qualifications. Now, whether that should be the case or not—and let's hope there's going to be a big change—that is something that concerns teachers greatly.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure whether there is an easy mechanism to put in place to ensure that Welsh history is taught in the correct manner—not in the correct manner, but effectively. It has to be a national project, as it were—it has to be something that is done on a national level and that time is invested, and that we make sure that we come to it from the perspective of a national acceptance that this is what's going to happen. Yes, it's going to cause more work for historians. Changing the nature of the curriculum is one thing; changing what is expected of them to teach adds to that workload. But it has to come from a perspective of a civic duty and civic pride. Sorry, I don't think that there is an easy answer to that.

Mark, anything to add?

Well, I think there's got to be an element of prescription. On the other hand, if we turn the tables back to the classroom and to the specialists, and we reinforce the need to have specialist teachers, even within a humanities setting, you'll find there that the more experienced specialist teachers are going to know what to teach and what the emphasis should be on. So, yes, there has to be an element of prescription. But we also need to be very mindful that, as important as Welsh history is—and that's the point of this meeting—we mustn't narrow the teaching of history to solely Welsh examples as well, because we must also link Welsh history to the national context and to the international context.

I can come in to dispute that, if you'd like. Obviously, I don't think that teaching Welsh history curtails the aspects of other things. Welsh history is reflected in the world around us, and world history is reflected in Wales. It's just a matter of—. We also see 'national' different, as I'm sure you are quite aware.

Yes. There we are. That's not for today. 

I'll ask this question in Welsh, Mark, okay?

Ocê?

Mark, you mentioned pioneer schools and I was going to ask you whether there's any good practice that both of you, actually, have noticed from the pioneer schools. And can I just add a little bit to that? We've mentioned local studies and local history; it's very difficult to examine local history, because of course it's different across Wales. You can make it a project-based way of assessing students. But how have those pioneer schools managed to adapt or develop the teaching of history as pioneer schools, and particularly, perhaps, the emphasis on what they've done in terms of local history?

Succinctly.

Succinctly. Okay, I will. I'm sure there has been some excellent practice. I won't name schools—it's not the correct forum for that—but I've got a couple of schools in mind in the Swansea area that have got very well developed curriculums, and they are managing the humanities element very well. And history appears to be pretty much embedded in that—without contradicting myself. But, again, the concerns expressed there would be: will that humanities approach prepare the students sufficiently for what happens at GCSE and A-level? And in terms of the curriculum, I couldn't answer that question because I haven't actually seen the curriculum designs and so on, but based on what's presently happening in schools across Wales, there is a significant emphasis on local history—again, with experienced and committed historians. And the WJEC and Welsh Government have encouraged a broad and balanced approach to the teaching of history anyway. Certainly, I've taught a tremendous amount of local history for a number of years, and I see that as a rite of passage, for myself and the children. 

I think British historiography shifted in the 1970s to see the geographical space that perhaps we'll call Great Britain and Ireland as the history of four nations and then the development of Britain as well. My own view is that we should see Britain as a nation, as well as the four nations, because I think there are—

Today? No, we don't have time. 

—in the creation of political bonds that are coherent, you inevitably generate a national feeling. But that was a big shift. And you see it in the great classics of history that have been written—and politics, indeed. But I wonder, are we, in our schools, teaching Welsh history as Welsh history, or is it often taught as examples of British history that occurred in Wales? And, in terms of our teachers being equipped to, I think, see the world more historically coherent in terms of this shift to the four nations as well as Britain, how do we prepare teachers for that, especially, perhaps, those who are moving in and may not even have studied Welsh history? If you're from the south-east of England, you could have done a Master's degree and perhaps never actually studied in any depth a period of Welsh history. So how do we deal with this? Or are we dealing with it?

Well, again, I take on board what you're saying, but from my own experience—. During my career, there's been a significant emphasis on teaching Welsh history from a Welsh perspective, and at A-level, at GCSE and key stage 3, I've been happy, really, with what's being delivered and the levels of knowledge and understanding. But I will emphasise again that we can't isolate Welsh history from the national context and the international context. Because what I've been very mindful of over the years—and hopefully, this will aid planning in terms of the new curriculum—is that, as a nation, we mustn't look inwards, we mustn't keep looking at the past. Because Wales has gone through a tremendous amount of change. I'm from Tonyrefail and I'm very mindful of my family and what my family have gone through and the adverse conditions they lived in as coal miners in the past. But we've got to teach hope as well, and I think any informed curriculum planning has got to focus on the past and the Welsh identity, but that the children realise that that's given us a tremendous foundation on which to build, moving forward. And perhaps that's where humanities will come into it, because it allows us to broaden our perspective and to look at links with other nations and, again, look at that international context.

Rightly or wrongly, we're stepping into a situation where those who will have been taught to teach in England will not be able to do so in Wales, and there has to be a realisation and an understanding that that is the case. Our curriculum has been quite different to England in many ways for a number of years. These changes now mean that we are going to make the pot smaller, unless there is going to be an investment in training those who come into the country as teachers of the Welsh curriculum. And I'm not talking about aspects of history here, because in many ways, all historians will be quite happy to jump into various aspects of history and discuss the various interpretations. But we are coming to a crunch period in education in Wales, in as much as if you want to teach in Wales, you will have to be trained in Wales, and perhaps the partnership that goes across the border as far as teacher training is concerned is going to come unstuck in that respect as well. So, that is our major issue. Some will be happy with that, some will be unhappy with that, obviously.

David?

Yes. There's a whole range of questions I'd like to ask, but I think that, probably, was the essential one I wanted to reflect on, which is just how we place Welsh history. I understand what you say in terms of where it is in the British isles. Because it amazes me; I went to the National Museum of Scotland five or six years ago and asked, 'Where are your exhibits and material on the kingdom of Strathclyde?' to which I had a completely blank look. And there's a real issue, isn't there, about the understanding of Welsh history and culture in the other countries of the United Kingdom. And, to some extent, we also have a fairly poor understanding of Scottish history and English history as an entity as well, and then we tend to look at all that as part of the British story, to some extent anyway, and that may be what we need to challenge.

But that's something for the universities to look at as well, in terms of how, in any way Britain may be going—and it's in a period of profound change—these things need to be looked at. You can't understand devolution unless you have a concept of the four nations. You could look at devolution as decentralisation similar to a process that would've occurred in Australia or Canada—or Canada apart from Quebec—and see it's just a rational reordering of how you do government, less centrally and you allow provincial governments to develop. It's actually inadequate to look at what's happened to devolution, and the reason it's been so unpredictable and strong a force is that we devolve to national units and they already had a great entity. So, I think the way people cope and understand and then vote and choose possible futures has got to be determined by a very deep historical understanding, and I think that we face a lot of challenges there. I've not asked a question; I've made a statement. [Laughter.] 

Yes, I was noting that. Did you have anything quickly you wanted to say to that? We are running very short on time. 

No.

No.

Literally quickly—I'm not going to ask for an answer, okay—I wonder if you could write to us, because I think an important point has been raised there on the transferability of skills in terms of teaching in Wales. My assumption was, well, if you are a historian, you can adapt to where you are teaching history. If you're a medic, people will say, well, medicine is the same all over the world, but, in reality, if Dai was going to practice in Uganda, he'd find malaria was the biggest problem that he was facing, which he wouldn't have in Cockett, so—. 

I've had it in Cockett, funnily enough. [Laughter.] 

Well, not to the same extent, perhaps. If there was adaptation in there—I wonder if we could have something in writing on that, just to—. We haven't got time to do it now.  

On the transferability of skills of teachers, as opposed to historians. 

Yes. 

I've been around the country, and I've been to various events, and been accosted afterwards by people whose primary school teachers, in particular—but also secondary school teachers—insist that they cover it in depth, and I can believe that quite happily. However, there are other teachers who I have spoken to—this is all anecdotal, as mentioned before—and they say that they do very little at present. And this is, hopefully, where the new curriculum is going to come in, and it's going to, hopefully, enforce this on school teachers, so that they are able to deliver it. Dr Elin Jones, in her report, said that there hadn't really been any assessment of how much was being done for 20 years, and even then it wasn't done as well as it could have been done. And, consequently, I think that Estyn will play a big part in this, and their assessment of how it is being covered within the curriculum, especially if they're tasked specifically with doing that.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. In terms of the new curriculum and the humanities area of learning and experience, what would you say in terms of the place of history, and specifically Welsh history and a Welsh perspective, within that?

I'll answer it if you wish.

Well, you start.

Unfortunately, having read two of the documents twice, there isn't a huge amount. It's up to the teachers to put in their views of Welsh history, I think. But probably, with the views of other people, the pioneer schools, I assume, have supplied their partner schools with information about what should be going in there, but at present I haven't got a clue what it's going to be. There have been no exemplar materials made available for us to have a look at, I'm afraid. So, I don't know what it's going to be.

Wyn.

I'll speak in English. I find some of the 'what matters' and some of the four purposes rather vague and open to interpretation. I'm concerned about two of the 'what matters', which start with 'society is complex and diverse'. I think it's starting from the wrong end of the stick as far as history is concerned, because societies were simpler and less diverse, and I think you should start at the beginning. History is being squeezed anyway, because you throw in business studies—I would have preferred the title 'economics', which comes into history anyway; economic events affect history—and social studies. History is about social studies. So, I don't know why those two have been thrust in as well as history, geography and RE. I agree totally with what Eryl has said, that you can see Welsh history in the Welsh context, in the British context, as Mr Melding has raised, and in the world context. So, if you want to look in John Davies's book, that's why I've brought it. It's available in English as well, and it's local, it's Welsh, it's the effects of the rest of the United Kingdom and beyond. It's all there if you want to read it, and the history of the Welsh language I'm concerned with is in this little book by Cennard Davies, and most of the history was in Welsh.

I think the curriculum is well intentioned, but I think we need to get down to specifics, and that's where I think it'll be difficult.

I can only say I'm biased, but the story of Glyndŵr and the rest of the ages of the princes I find particularly interesting, and the website that the society has has had a lot of hits, but there is the Facebook page as well, and this is where we can get other people involved. I've had a lot of feedback from schoolteachers saying—whatever the post is that's gone on there, they're making their comments about it, and they're saying, 'That's interesting; we could use that'. So, new media—obviously, social media may not be the best form for it—can be used in order to promote these stories.

For example, I sent out a general post about Dydd Gŵyl Dewi hapus a few months ago. It reached nearly 15,000 people. But, just after that, I also put a post on about the penal laws of 1401 that were inflicted on Wales, and it reached nearly 28,000 people. By analysing the Facebook page, you could see that it wasn't just Welsh and it wasn't just British; this is reaching the whole—. It was something like 50 different countries that were reached by that post. So, people have got an interest in it—they've got a thirst for this knowledge. As I said, Owain Glyndŵr specifically, as a historian, I'm interested in, but the whole of the Age of the Princes and before that the Age of the Saints—all of these are stories that should really be told.

What gets me is the number of people who say, 'Why is it only now that we're hearing about this?' I put a post on a couple of days ago about the siege in Brecon by Glyndŵr in 1403 and it reached something like 6,000 people virtually within a day. So, it's a growing thing, and people, I think, are coming around to showing their interest in this part of our history. 

I have to follow on from what Wyn said, in that Glyndŵr, actually, had a Senedd that pulled people from all the commotes of Wales as well. So, he followed on from what Hywel Dda did. But obviously, focusing on Owain Glyndŵr only isn't enough, and that's why for the past three years we've been trying to get in touch with schools to see how we could help in order to develop materials, and help them with planning courses, et cetera. But I must admit, there's been very little feedback. I think that out of the 20 original humanities pioneer schools, we had feedback from four, maybe five of them. And out of those, though, we did put together a PowerPoint that picked 20 of the most prominent people from the Age of the Princes, and did a PowerPoint on that with snippets of information, just as a guideline, a chronological map or a timeline on our website as well, but linked into their family trees, so that they can see the links between the different people from the time, and show how they were related.

There's 20 people, there's a story for each of them, but there's a myriad of other things that we could be discussing at the same time, which—. You know, it's how much time people are going to be able to spend on this, plus for people like us—societies like mine, and there are lots around the country—who can provide resources, can provide help and assistance, but are just being ignored at the moment. 

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I was director of policy for the Conservative Party for 11 years, which is a long, long time, and for every researcher I employed, top of the reading list was John Davies's history, which I think is quite masterful, because it places Welsh history in its correct context. It's not an epiphenomenon of British history although it's deeply interrelated. His dealing of the Glyndŵr rebellion as a British phenomenon as well as a Welsh one, I think, is a profound reminder that the effects go both ways sometimes. But, is there some weakness, do you think, at the minute in the general teaching of Welsh history, where it is conducted, that it does tend to present it as British history that occurred in Wales, and there's not that sense of it as an indigenous phenomenon, or do you not see that?

'It's patchy, I think', I would presume is the answer to that. 

Patchy. I'll just finish off my point in English. That's the point I would make. That's probably the truth. And it was a consequence of the national curriculum we had—we still have in place, really. It was a curriculum developed for the whole of England and Wales, and the Cwricwlwm Cymreig came as an addition to it. So, it was natural then for schools to plan and to think in terms of, 'This is the main core of history; add a little bit onto it to give it the Welsh flavour', and hopefully we are moving away from that approach, because it's inherent in the structure of the new curriculum that Welsh history is integrated at the core and is central to what will be studied in schools in Wales.

Also resources—if resources are readily available from the Welsh dimension, showing the Welsh dimension, then they will be used more, but in the past a lot of the resources were, I wouldn't say Anglo-centric, but they were British-viewing rather than specifically Welsh-viewed. I think the biggest thing that's needed is some exemplar materials to show what is it people need to deliver the new curriculum properly.

I think Gareth is right and Eryl. It varies; it's patchy, and that is something I hope you could rectify in the next few months—that there is a consistency in the teaching so that children, when they finish studying history, know a core of our history now. As Carwyn Jones said earlier, there is a strong debate on how much you can include in the time frame, but I think we need to decide what they should know when they stop studying history. And there is an issue there with some teachers. I think they're not confident in that, and the resources that have been available have been coming from England—they're more attractive. This is an issue for you as well.

But I take very much the points that you made last week—as I said, I think it was an impressive debate last week—that there are links outside Wales: that Strathclyde is from Ystrad Clud and Cumbria is virtually the same word as 'Cymru', and in there you've got Penrith; Malvern is Moelfryn. Essentially, that is the Welsh language spread outside Wales, and these links are not well known to people outside Wales, and we are not aware of Scottish and, heaven help us, Irish history. If we understood Irish history a bit better, then perhaps David Lloyd George would have avoided the trap he fell into in 1922. But I think these are things that we need to rectify, but certainly, at the end of studying history, I would hope that there's a core knowledge of the key events in our history, but that's a challenge to do with teachers, in-service training and with resources.

I must say that I'm inclined to your view that there are key concepts or key events and periods that you need at least some familiarity with. We're moving to a curriculum that is based on concept rather than content. I can see that there are advantages to that and probably the best practice that will flourish will be really impressive, but the common practice may not be quite as integrated. And I just wonder if you think there's a particular danger there that, as we move to this freer style, some teachers who don't have the confidence to deal with the full richness of Welsh history, both in its location immediately to them, but also as you've emphasised, with Wales as an entity as well. We've even heard one witness say that it'll be a problem for those trained outside Wales to come in and make good if they've not already had this in their higher education, for instance. Do you see these as challenges that we might face in the new curriculum about the confidence and ability to integrate the Welsh history in this united humanities approach?

Yes, okay. It's a matter of accountability, really, isn't it, as we make this move from content to concept, as David Melding described. How can we have confidence that we will get consistency in terms of the quality of education on these matters? Is there anything in particular you'd like to see in terms of necessary accountability?

I'll say it in English, if you like. I really think that there are challenges with this idea of concepts, because they're open to interpretation, and it depends then how various schools interpret those. If you take the secondary sector, you might have a head of history or someone leading the history curriculum taking the lead role and the emphasis might be on history; you might have a geographer in another school. This is the problem that I have with the present guidelines, that they are open to this interpretation and there's not going to be a consistency throughout Wales, and, if you're calling it a vision for Wales, surely there should be some knowledge that is common to all pupils when they stop studying history. I think there's a huge, huge challenge ahead of schools in putting the meat on the bone. The structure sounds fine, but, when you try to pin it down to what parents should be asking when they come home from school, what examiners want to examine, what colleges and universities will want to know, I'm doubtful. I hope I'm wrong, because children's education is being considered here. I hope I'm wrong, but I am fearful of this idea of concept without pinning down the content. 

I know we've got very little time, Chair. Very briefly, the timeliness of the new qualifications—any key points you'd like to make on that?

The timeliness?

Yes. What do we need to see in terms of when they're introduced?

Ah, right. Well, the sooner we get the exemplar materials the better, because then people will know what the qualifications are going to roughly look like. Because without some exemplar materials—. I must admit I've been looking keenly and waiting for some examples of what's expected. But nothing yet, I'm afraid.

Anything you'd add on that, or—?

No. Just quickly, that's another driver, if you like, to the curriculum. I wouldn't wish in any way for teachers to follow rigorously set requirements of a syllabus for qualifications, like a racehorse with the what-do-you-call-them on the side of their—

Blinkers.

But that is the driver. If formal qualifications expect a certain standard and level and so on, then teaching will, at least partially, be driven towards that aim. So, that's another driver that would possibly achieve the consistency that I'm sure we're all after. 

Are you asking me, or both of us?

Both of us—both of you. When I'm asking, I'm asking both of you. You don't always have to answer each question. 

Okay. I don't see any change. 

I don't see any change either. And in terms of—. EYST Wales did engagement with pupils, with 32 pupils, in four different locations last year, and, especially in terms of representation of racial diversity in the curriculum, and people seeing their own identities and a range of identities represented, there is no change, and pupils feel that they're underrepresented in the curriculum and that this affects their self-esteem and the way that other pupils view them. 

Okay. I think that one of the main issues in order to effect change could begin here. So, for instance, we've come to talk about a topic that is about black and minority ethnic people and pupils, and we're short of time, so we're asked to be succinct. We are constantly either in an annex, an add-on, or 'shake a little bit on the top of what we're doing'. There needs to be a fundamental change, and that fundamental change must come from the Welsh Government, in the way that it looks at the curriculum, in the way that it looks to develop its citizens of Wales, and recognises that the citizens of Wales are not all white skinned, that we have a history that was about contribution to Wales and that history has to be reflected throughout the curriculum. So, there are some specific changes, but I think unless we—you—grasp that nettle and take that change and give it some importance, you will just be tinkering and very little will change.

Diolch. Ginger.

I would just say that I agree wholeheartedly—I agree wholeheartedly with the statement that Gaynor just presented to you, and I know that you want to be succinct, but—

But that's everybody by the way, because time is tight, so it doesn't apply exclusively to you, just for you to know.

Okay, that's fine. This is a quote that I often use just to illustrate that point. It's actually from Riz Ahmed, who is a British actor, who is quite often asked, 'What do you think about diversity in Hollywood? What about diversity in the roles that you get?' This is what he has to say. He talks about representation, not diversity:

'I don’t like to talk about diversity...it sounds like an added extra. It sounds like the fries, not the burger...like something on the side—you got your main thing...and [then you] sprinkle on a little bit of diversity.... That’s not what it’s about for me. It’s about representation. Representation is absolutely fundamental in terms of what we expect from our culture, and from our politics. We all want to feel represented. We all want to feel seen and heard and valued, so I prefer to talk about representation.'

I think that's just underlining the setting of the scene for that and where that fundamental shift needs to take place. But I just point out to you today that, if we look at pupils in Wales today, 11 per cent of pupils in Wales today have ethnic minority heritage. If we look at Cardiff, 33 per cent of those pupils have ethnic minority heritage—that's a third; a third of our students in Cardiff. Going to Newport, we're looking at nearly 25 per cent and, in Swansea, nearly 15 per cent. 

So, I think that, if we talk about culture as being something that's emerging, that intersects and is constantly changing and negotiating, this new curriculum must reflect dynamic Welsh cultures, cultures in plural, a multi-racial society, and it has to be transformative and progressive. But it's not going to happen by accident. I think there's a hard truth that we have to face. The current and previous curriculums of Wales and other UK nations have been Eurocentric. We all exist in a colonial history; there are racial hierarchies associated with those histories and they affect the way that all of us think in very different fashions, and I think that needs to be unpicked and challenged with counter-narratives. 

But I think—sorry, I'll finish very quickly now—getting to the question of what needs to happen—.

Now, in the current system.

Now in the current system, what needs to happen in the current system—I think, first of all, you need to look at who are your teachers, why are not more ethnic minority people going into the teaching profession, what can, what needs to, be done to recruit and progress BAME teachers, but also what needs to be done to ensure that current teachers are culturally competent—that they can deal with that history that we have just mentioned and create a curriculum that will be transformative. 

Okay. Thank you; diolch. John Griffiths.

In terms of the new curriculum and the area of learning of the humanities and the base of history and Welsh history within that, what would you say that should be?

Well, first of all, I would say that not all people are going to agree on what Welsh history is and what Welsh history means, and I think there needs to be a common agreement about what that is. It needs to be inclusive and it needs to include all of the histories that Gaynor mentioned in her answer to the previous question. I do think that there's going to be a tension between teaching what people often call the canon: the saints versus the—right, so, medieval history versus what's happening contemporarily. But I think even look at Wales in terms of colonial history. So, Wales has a history of being colonised by England, which I'm sure a lot of people think should be included in the new curriculum. Wales also has a history of participating and benefiting from the British empire and the British colonisation of many parts of the world, and that needs to be looked at—and in participating in slavery and the slave trade as well, and that needs to be looked at in a really honest fashion. In fact, the United Nations convention on the elimination of racial discrimination—the UK is a signatory to that. So, every five to six years the UK undergoes an assessment as to whether it's—. Because you have a duty to actually eliminate racial discrimination as a UK nation that has signed this treaty. In the most recent recommendations from the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, there's a specific recommendation to look at the way, throughout all UK nations, how colonial history is represented, and to represent it in a more factual and true light—not whitewashing it.

In fact, what I would say is that—I don't want to lose the pupil voice here, but I just want to say that a lot of the pupils that we spoke with were quite critical of the current way in which they see non-white British ethnicities represented in the curriculum. They didn't refer to whitewashing but they were able to talk about that. They were able to say—in answering the question 'What did they teach you about black history?', one girl said, 'They taught us that black people were slaves.' This is not where black history begins, nor where it ends. But that is what they were taught. When we asked about—.  Muslim girls were saying that it's the luck of the draw whether they actually get taught their religion in a school or not, because it depends very much on which school they went to, what their teachers actually know. They were quite critical of the superficial knowledge of teachers, in terms of teaching what we have been calling 'diverse histories'. Yes, so I think we need to show that history, not only contemporaneously by redefining what Welsh culture is, but making sure that everybody's on board and doesn't see it as a white definition, but also looking at that colonial interpretation.

Okay—

Gaynor, did you want to come in?  

Yes. 

Sorry, Gaynor—please. 

I was just going to say that Wales has been a forerunner in lots of areas of development, and going back to the—. Wales was the first country to develop the rights of the child and to embed it in the way that the Welsh Government operates. I think the curriculum is an action that falls out of that. If we want to develop our young people into full citizens of Wales, the choice that's being discussed here about the rights of particular schools to develop a curriculum that is locally based and informs children about their locale, as opposed to something that is prescriptive, and says, 'You have to cover this'—I think there are certain elements that have to be prescriptive, and some of the prescriptive elements have to be about—.

I've been listening to the debate whilst I was waiting in the room. I'm not going to rehearse all this about where history starts and whether the saints are important or not, because, like Carwyn said, it depends who's written the history. But our history—black history and that—. When I'm talking about Welsh history I tend not to use the words 'black history', because it's our history, it's Welsh history. When we talk about 'our history' we have to include all of us in it. So, I think there are elements that transpose the curriculum, that go into what education is really about. It's not just about young people passing exams, it's about growing them, it's about making them aware of their environment and their responsibilities. As such, I think there are elements within it that have to be prescriptive. 

Okay. Would you say that there's a sort of minimum level of knowledge that's required on diversity in Wales, historically, and now, right across Wales? And then, locally, in those areas, such as Newport, Cardiff and Swansea, where there are many more diverse communities than elsewhere in Wales, that, locally, then, you would expect more concentration on those issues? 

The organisation I'm the chair of is called Cultural Exchange, because it's about that. I want the kids who live in the docks—where I grew up—to know about north Wales, to know about Bangor and Carmarthen and Harlech, as much as I want the people in Harlech and Carmarthen and that to know about the docks and about the coal industry and about the shipping, because it's about Wales. This is our country, and we need to know the total of how we got here, and, more importantly, how we're going to move forward. And we can only move forward together. So, information is power. So, the more we can tell—. It doesn’t matter for me. There are specifics, and I think that’s where you get into the area of whether schools can develop specifics about their locale, and then you can say, 'Well, there’s a large Yemeni community, there’s a large Somali community—we can develop more things.' But, generally, right across Wales, we all need to know about each other.

Okay. Dai Lloyd.

Do you want to answer that or do you want me to start?

You go first, please.

Okay. When I looked at the draft, I thought we were missing some opportunities, because, although I think you thought I was talking about the past, I’m actually talking about the future. So, this issue of concept is what Ginger said—it’s about being represented. So, we need to represent the various communities and populations of Wales in our curriculum. And if we don’t include that as something that’s mandatory, then we will have missed an opportunity going forward.

Can you repeat the question one more time?

Okay. I see both challenges and hope in that. I would just say, once again, I agree with everything that Gaynor said, and maybe talk about one of the challenges that I would see, which is about making sure that teachers, especially when we're talking about representation—ensuring that representation of all of the people who live in Wales get into that curriculum. I think it's very important that, not only as was stated earlier—that we make sure that the population of teachers who are teaching reflect that diversity in that population—but that teachers are really trained and equipped and feel confident in presenting that. Because I think there's a lot of evidence that teachers, sometimes, don't feel equipped to present histories that they're not very familiar with. So, I think that we need to make sure that both initial teacher training—. There is some evidence that there's very little attention given to ethnic or racial diversity, currently, in initial teacher training, So, there is an opportunity to use this new curriculum to ensure that that is addressed, along with continuing professional development—looking at that continuing professional development. And I do think that there is going to be an initiative to train teachers to deal with the new curriculum, and I think you need to really take this issue seriously, and look at it at the centre when you're teaching teachers to rise to this challenge. 

Carwyn Jones.

Thank you, Chair. I think sometimes we in Wales have been guilty of convincing ourselves that, somehow, Wales doesn’t have a history of discrimination or racism, when in fact it does. We’re celebrating—‘celebrating’ is the wrong word. We're recognising the 100 years since the Cardiff race riots in 1919. There were anti-Irish riots in Tredegar a few years before that. Questions such as why it is, for example, that so many decedents of slaves in the Caribbean have Welsh surnames—there’s an involvement there of Welsh people. No-one ever talks about why it is, for example, that so many rugby players left Tiger Bay, as it was then, and got recognised playing rugby league, and never got recognised when they were playing in Wales. All these things have never been explored. And these are things that I’d never learned in school. There were things that I did pick up on as I studied history later on, but never in school. the history of Wales was entirely a white history based on what happened with the princes and Glyndŵr and not much beyond that, actually, which is not the full picture of Welsh history, as you say.

The question I have is this: the curriculum offers greater flexibility, which is an opportunity in terms of being able to teach more about the racial diversity of Wales and Wales as a tapestry of people and not one version of the history of Wales, but is there also a danger that, with flexibility, there will be some schools that will focus on particular aspects of history in their own areas, rightly so, and other parts of Wales will say, 'Well, Black History Month—it's very interesting, but, actually, it doesn't affect us, because we've got very, very few people from a black and minority ethnic background', but it is of relevance to them because it affects the whole of Wales? So, how can we balance up that flexibility to be able to teach locally relevant history, rightly so, while at the same time, ensuring that that doesn't mean that that history is also not taught in the rest of Wales?

I go back to what I said initially: I think there are some areas within the curriculum that should be made mandatory and some areas that are allowed to be localised. I think the challenge around that is providing the teachers and schools in areas where there are very very few black people with the teaching materials that they need to develop the curriculum, and to help them to make the links—'This is about Cardiff and it's got nothing to do with us'—to be able to help them to make the links to do with the development of Cardiff and the development of north Wales et cetera, and the economy of Wales and the economy within the world. So, there's a role, I think, that the Welsh Government really could help with developing the teaching materials that are about fair and full representation. If we don't do that—the fact that they're going to do something that is new, something that is different, and find the materials—will lead schools to say, 'Well, I won't bother with this, we'll just talk about'—I don't know—'farming in Wales', or 'We live on the coast in fishing villages', you know, and give that very twee impression of what Wales is about.

I would just say that I understand that teachers don't want any more monitoring in terms of numbers, and I understand the burden that gets put on teachers, with level after level of more requirements. But I do think that you do need to have some kind of evaluation mechanism to look at what's being taught in schools and to be able to come back yourselves and think, 'Are we getting this balance right? What is being taught in schools? And is there representation of both local history and other national histories, international connections and diversity of representation of people in Wales in there?' I don't see how you're going to know if you don't evaluate it.

Just very quickly, I entirely agree with the point that Gaynor made that it's important to look at particular aspects of history, such as Black History Month, or, indeed, Welsh history as a whole, but as long as it's not divorced from everything else and seen as some kind of optional extra—I think that's how you said it—an optional extra that doesn't form part of the core teaching of history, and that's something, of course, that we'd need to be able to guard against. Is there something that could be done in order to make sure that people understand that a specific strand of history doesn't sit on its own outside of history, but it's an important part of the history of Wales as a whole?

We developed—'we' being the Heritage and Cultural Exchange—part of the text and teaching materials for England for the O-level in humanities, and what we did was we made the links between the people, the place and the built environment. And in just covering the people, the place and the built environment, you have to draw in the rest of Wales, if not the rest of the world. So, Blaenau Ffestiniog, the slate industry, the coal mines, the wool, Lancashire, slavery, they're so interconnected if you look for the connections. But, again, I think that teachers will need help in developing the teaching materials so that they can make the subject true to the importance of history. I know it's going to sit in a broader humanities part of the curriculum—. And I heard the teachers; they were sat with me, saying that we've got to safeguard the integrity of history teaching. I loved history, but I think, too, that other areas of the curriculum can carry some of the information if the teaching materials are developed well. I keep saying this; that unless you look for those materials—. And the opening up of the archives, for instance, now gives us more and more information about what went on. A couple of weeks ago, I was looking at some of the correspondence between the Welsh Office and Westminster during the 1970s, and it just gives so much information that is interesting information; it's exciting. So, I just think that, with help, we can develop all those materials that are really good and can be groundbreaking.

So, just to confirm that you seem, in general, in favour of some content and events being taught, but you quite like the idea of a more humanities or liberal arts-type approach and more integration between, say, economics, geography and history, allowing these phenomena to be properly explored so we do get a full appreciation of the richness of our cultural heritage and hitherto minority groups that have not been represented get a full part to play. Is that fair for me to conclude—that that part of the curriculum, the shift, in this section, anyway, to humanities, is something that you think is going to be quite useful?

Ginger's got some facts and figures from some of the focus groups and the work with children. I don't know if you want to talk about that.

Yes. In itself, that concept could be very useful. I think the devil is in the detail as to how it plays out. So, I just think—. I actually had a look—. I'm going to refer to the framework first. I pored over the humanities AoLE last night, and there are a lot of things in there where I thought, 'Those are positive concepts, they could really be useful in the teaching of representative history'—such as self-awareness, critical thinking, tolerance, empathy, understanding diversity and challenging stereotypes. But one thing that I did notice is that the concepts of race or ethnicity weren't necessarily treated in a systematic fashion in the AoLE. Most references to race and ethnicity and equalities generally are in the relationships and sexuality section. So, that's where I think—. And just to underline one more time again, to underline previous points, it's really about making sure the teachers understand how to be racially aware beings and understand their own history in terms of these concepts, but also get the support they need to create those materials, which sometimes comes from organisations such as the one that Gaynor is involved in, and that a lot of other groups across Wales are doing.

The focus groups—

Yes, the focus groups. Actually, what I'll say—. Okay, so I'll just get this out here, because I do think it's important to have pupil voice in here. So, I was actually going to say that, basically, the pupils brought into sharp focus the critical role of schools and teachers and how they respond to racism. It illuminated the way in which a whitewashed curriculum distorts the ethnic minority pupils' sense of self-worth, but also their white peers' understanding of their place and value in the world. The pupils all agreed they wanted to see their identities and heritages. One of them said to me, 'I want to see us represented and our culture and religion. You need to know where we came from.' She pointed to me when she said 'you'; she was talking to me directly.

There were a group of girls from Torfaen who went to a school that had a centre that taught Gypsy and Traveller culture as well as human rights, and they felt that this not only affected their self-esteem, but it also helped them integrate and create friendships with other pupils in the school. As we know, those programmes now are in danger, as school funding is in danger.

But I'm just going to give you a few key themes that came out of these focus groups. So, No. 1—and I think this can go back to David Melding's question—what they do want is ethnically diverse role models across the curriculum, and this goes back to the point that it can't be something that is on the side. I spoke with one group of girls—these were a group of girls from Swansea—and they were actually mostly all interested in going into science. They were doing their A-levels and studying physics and chemistry and maths, and they noted a lack of BAME role models in science subjects and in maths. They went on to say—here's a quote from one of them—'in every subject, we want to hear a fact about Muslim people achieving big stuff; not just Muslims, but different races.' So instead of being allotted to history or religious education, in maths, in the odd lesson, they want to learn about past people who discovered different things, who made big accomplishments.

These focus groups were facilitated by youth workers, and it was either one of the youth workers or one of the other girls in the group that pointed out that the oldest continuous existing university in the world was actually founded by a Muslim woman. It's in Morocco, and still in operation now. A girl in the focus group, upon hearing that story, got really excited, and said, 'We want to hear more wildcards like that'. And I said to her, 'Well, why do call that a wildcard?' And she said, 'Because we don't hear these stories very often'. And I just thought that's not right, really. It shouldn't be like that.

The other point that they made—I think I've made this point before, so I won't labour it—is that it's about the representation of history that is outside that canon of white British history and white Welsh history, the competency of teachers to really teach it and teach it with confidence, and sometimes the superficiality of the way that slavery gets taught, or that black history is presented as an aside.

They had a thirst for global events and politics, and they were also critical of their teachers' knowledge and preparedness. They thought their teachers needed to be more prepared to teach representation and diverse histories. But they also saw the fact that, if this got into the curriculum, if it goes in the right way, authentically, it would be an antidote to racist viewpoints, and a lot of the pupils were really dealing with being called terrorists as Muslim students. A lot of these students had really experienced racist incidents. Some one-offs, sometimes it was a normal experience for the children and they really thought that this would be important if it was embedded in the curriculum in that way.

Was there any good practice identified in these exercises? I think it's very powerful, the evidence, but I just wonder—are there some schools getting it right already, or do we have a long way to go?

That's a good question. I do think that the example of the centre that Gypsy/Traveller students could go to that was in Torfaen—that was an example of good practice. When we talked about racist incidents being addressed in schools, and that's a different subject—I don't think it's a completely different subject to the curriculum, but different from our focus today—there were some good practice examples of that. In terms of the curriculum I'm afraid to say there was only that one good practice example in these focus groups in particular. I know they exist and they're out there, and that people are working really hard.

Most of my nieces and nephews—or great-nieces and great-nephews—are being educated through the Welsh medium. And last year one of my nephews had to do a project on inventors and developers, so I said, 'Try and find a black inventor, because you've told me they don't mention it in school'. They go to different schools, not just in Cardiff, and they all say the same thing—there's nothing about being black and Welsh. There is an assumption that they're from somewhere else. So I tell them, 'Tell them your grandfather and your great-grandfather fought in the first and the second world war and you can bring in the medals to prove it', but of course they won't. Anyway, the inventor—we identified the person that invented algorithms and software for emojis, and he took his project to the school and afterwards I said to him, 'What did your teacher say?' and the teacher said, 'Never heard of him', and put the project on the desk. And I just thought that is—. You know, we go back to preparedness for teachers, et cetera. I think that is symptomatic. It's not just us who don't know, it's the teachers, and you don't know what you don't know. So, I keep coming back to this need to develop further awareness, education and the materials, and the stuff that Ginger's already said about looking at the way in which teachers are trained.

John, did you have anything to add to the questions? 

I think lot of the—[Inaudible.] 

Okay. David, did you want to come back quickly? 

My final question was going to be on parents, teachers and teacher training, which you've fully covered, as the natural flow inevitably works this way sometimes. You've fully covered it, I think.   

We're on time now then. [Laughter.] 

Thank you. 

Thank you.