Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Yn ôl i Chwilio

Y Pwyllgor Cyllid

Finance Committee

04/04/2019

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies AC
Llyr Gruffydd AC Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Mike Hedges AC
Rhun ap Iorwerth AC

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Anna Daniel Pennaeth Trawsnewid Strategol, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
Head of Strategic Transformation, National Assembly for Wales
Manon Antoniazzi Prif Weithredwr a Chlerc y Cynulliad
Chief Executive and Clerk to the Assembly
Nia Morgan Cyfarwyddwr Cyllid, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
Director of Finance, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
Tom Jackson Rheolwr Bil
Bill Manager
Y Llywydd / The Llywydd Yr Aelod sy’n gyfrifol am y Bil
The Member in charge of the Bill

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Dr Toby James Cynghorwr Arbenigol
Expert Adviser
Leanne Hatcher Clerc
Clerk
Martin Jennings Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Ryan Bishop Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod am 9:30.

The public part of the meeting began at 9:30.

2. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
2. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Wel, bore da, bawb, a chroeso i gyfarfod Pwyllgor Cyllid y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Gaf i nodi bod y clustffonau ar gael ar gyfer y cyfieithu fel arfer, wrth gwrs, a bod modd hefyd defnyddio'r rheini i addasu lefel y sain, os oes angen? Gaf i hefyd atgoffa Aelodau i ddiffodd y sain ar unrhyw ddyfeisiadau electronig sydd gennych chi ac a gaf i ofyn a oes gan unrhyw Aelod unrhyw fuddiannau i'w datgan? Nac oes. Diolch yn fawr. Gaf i nodi hefyd ein bod ni wedi derbyn ymddiheuriad gan Nick Ramsay, sydd yn methu â bod gyda ni'r bore yma? Mi symudwn—

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this meeting of the Finance Committee at the National Assembly. Could I say that the headsets are available for interpretation and that you can use those also to amplify the sound, if you need to do that? Could I also remind Members to ensure that any electronic devices are on silent, and could I ask whether Members have any interests to declare? No. Thank you very much. Could I also note that we have had apologies from Nick Ramsay, who can't join us this morning?

Ac mae Rhianon Passmore yn mynd i gyrraedd, ydy, ond yn mynd i gyrraedd yn hwyr. Ie, diolch yn fawr am hynny, Mike.

And Rhianon Passmore is going to be here, but she's going to be late, yes, so thank you very much for that, Mike.

3. Sesiwn graffu ar y Bil Senedd ac Etholiadau (Cymru): Comisiwn y Cynulliad 1
3. Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill scrutiny session: Assembly Commission 1

Iawn, mi awn ni at eitem 3 ar ein hagenda ni, felly, sef sesiwn graffu ar y Bil Senedd ac Etholiadau (Cymru), a dwi'n croesawu cynrychiolwyr Comisiwn y Cynulliad atom ni: Manon Antoniazzi, Prif Weithredwr a Chlerc y Cynulliad a Nia Morgan, y cyfarwyddwr cyllid. Croeso i'r ddwy ohonoch chi. Mi awn ni'n syth i gwestiynau os ydy hynny'n iawn, ac mi gychwynnaf i os caf i drwy nodi bod yna lawer o gostau yn yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol ar gyfer y Cynulliad sy'n ymwneud ag amser staff. Dwi jest eisiau gofyn, mewn gwirionedd: beth yw'ch barn chi ynglŷn â'r fethodoleg sydd wedi cael ei defnyddio i ddod i'r symiau hynny ac ydy'r fethodoleg yna wedi cael ei defnyddio'n gyson drwy'r asesiad?

Okay, we'll go to item 3 on our agenda, namely a scrutiny session on the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill, and I welcome representatives from the Assembly Commission: Manon Antoniazzi, Chief Executive and Clerk to the Assembly and Nia Morgan, director of finance. Welcome to both of you. We'll go straight into questions if that's okay, and I will start by noting that many of the costs identified in the regulatory impact assessment for the Assembly relate to staff time. I just want to ask what your opinion is of the methodology that was used to arrive at those estimates and has that methodology been used consistently throughout the RIA.

Dwi yn meddwl bod y fethodoleg wedi bod yn un cadarn ac yn un sydd wedi cael ei gweithredu'n gyson hefyd. Gallaf i dim ond siarad, wrth gwrs, ynglŷn â'r costau ar gyfer y Comisiwn, ond fe fyddwch chi wedi cael cyfle, dwi'n gwybod, ar achlysuron eraill, i holi rhanddeiliaid eraill ynglŷn â'u costau nhw. Ond dwi'n gwybod bod yna ymarferiad weddol drylwyr wedi digwydd o fewn y Comisiwn yn ymgynghori â sawl pennaeth adran, a hefyd yn gwneud yn siŵr bod y penaethiaid adran yn ymgynghori â'i gilydd mewn cyfarfodydd i wneud yn siŵr bod tybiaethau yn gyffredin rhyngddyn nhw i gyd a bod yna ddim costau wedi cael eu dyblygu, fel petai. So, dwi'n gyfforddus bod y fethodoleg yna'n gywir, a hefyd, lle mae'n bosib o fewn y memorandwm esboniadol, fod y fethodoleg yna a'r tybiaethau wedi cael eu gosod allan fel bod modd craffu'n fwy effeithiol nawr ac ar ôl deddfu.

I do think that the methodology is robust and is one that has been applied consistently. I can only speak of the Commission costs, but I know that you will have had an opportunity, on other occasions, to question other stakeholders about their costs. But I do know that there was quite a thorough exercise undertaken within the Commission in consulting with a number of heads of department, and also ensuring that those heads did consult with each other at meetings to ensure that the assumptions were common among them all and that no costs have been duplicated. So, I am comfortable that that methodology was accurate, and, where possible within the explanatory memorandum, that that methodology and the assumptions have been properly set out so that they can be scrutinised more effectively now and after legislating.

Iawn. Alun, ŷch chi eisiau dod i mewn?

Fine. Alun, do you want to come in?

Pan fyddaf i'n edrych ar gostau, pan fo sôn amboutu amser staff, dwi wastad yn gofyn i fy hun y cwestiwn: ydy honno yn gost go iawn? Ydych chi'n cyflogi staff ychwanegol ac ydyn nhw'n gwneud pethau gwahanol, neu ydy'r rhain yn staff sy'n bodoli ar hyn o bryd, sy'n aelodau o staff ar hyn o bryd, ac yn mynd i fod yn aelodau o staff trwy gydol y cyfnod dŷn ni'n ei drafod fan hyn?

When I look at costs, when it talks about staff time, I always ask myself the question: is that a real cost? Are you employing extra staff, are they doing different things, or are these staff members who are existing members of staff and who are going to be staff members during the period that we're discussing here?

Yn ymarferol—. Rŷch chi'n gwneud pwynt da—yn ymarferol, dwi'n meddwl y bydd llawer iawn o'r costau staff yn cael eu cynnwys, eu llyncu, o fewn y gyllideb arferol, ond dwi'n deall, drwy gydol y memorandwm esboniadol, fod yna agwedd bwyllog wedi cael ei chymryd tuag at amcangyfrif costau, ac felly, er mwyn defnyddio arfer gorau a bod yn hollol dryloyw fel bod modd craffu, yna rŷn ni wedi mynd i mewn i'r costau staff yna a'u gosod nhw allan fel bod modd cwestiynu hynny. Mi allech chi ofyn yr un peth am amser Aelodau, ond wrth gwrs does yna ddim posibilrwydd o gael mwy o Aelodau i fod yn gwneud gwaith craffu yn hwyrach yn y broses.

Beth rŷn ni'n ei wneud o flwyddyn i flwyddyn, wrth gwrs, yn y Comisiwn yw amcangyfrif yr anghenion busnes sydd yn mynd i fod yn codi, ac, ambell i waith, rŷn ni yn amrywio niferoedd y staff o fewn cwmpawd bach o safbwynt hwnnw. Ond, yn sicr, cymryd agwedd bwyllog roedden ni'n meddwl oedd orau wrth baratoi Bil, achos rŷn ni eisiau bod yn enghreifftiol ac ymateb i sylwadau mae'r pwyllgor yma ac eraill wedi eu gwneud wrth graffu Biliau eraill yn mynd trwyddo.

On a practical level, you make a good point—I think many of the staff costs will be subsumed within the usual budget, but I do understand that, throughout the explanatory memorandum, there has been a prudent approach towards cost estimates, and, in order to make best use of best practice and to ensure transparency to allow scrutiny, then we have gone into those staff costs and set them out so that they can be scrutinised. You could ask the same of Members' time, but there's no possibility of having more Members to be doing scrutiny work later on in this process.

What we do year on year, of course, in the Commission is to estimate the business needs that will arise, and, on occasion, we do vary staff numbers within strict limits. But, certainly, we've taken a cautious approach, and we thought that was best in preparing this Bill, because we do want to be an exemplar and to respond to comments made by this committee and others in scrutinising other Bills.

Dwi'n deall hynny a dwi'n gwerthfawrogi hynny; dwi ddim yn herio hynny o gwbl. Ond dwi eisiau deall ydy hyn yn—dyw hon ddim yn gost ychwanegol.

I understand and appreciate that; I don't challenge that at all. But I just want to understand whether this is—it's not an additional cost.

Posib iawn—wel, mae hi'n mynd i fod yn gost. Rŷn ni wedi rhoi pris ar y gost oherwydd mae e'n mynd i fod yn angen gwirioneddol. P'un ai fyddwn ni'n cyflogi staff ychwanegol, allaf i ddim dweud ar hyn o bryd.

Very possibly—well, it is going to be a cost, and we have put a price on it because it's going to be a real need. Whether we'll employ additional staff, I can't tell you at the moment.

Ocê, ond mae'n swnio i fi fel ei bod hi'n gost feddal yn lle cost galed.

But it sounds to me that it's a soft cost rather than a hard cost.

Posib iawn.

Very possibly.

Diolch yn fawr. Wrth gwrs, y prif gost i chi yw'r costau'n ymwneud â newid yr enw.

Thank you. Of course, the main cost for you is the cost relating to the name change.

Pa mor gadarn ŷch chi'n credu yw'r costau sydd wedi cael eu darparu ar gyfer yr agwedd yna'n benodol?

How robust do you think that the costs are that have been provided for that aspect of the Bill?

09:35

Wel, unwaith eto, dwi yn teimlo bod y costau yma yn weddol gadarn. Dwi’n reit gyfforddus, unwaith eto, bod yr ymarferiad ddigwyddodd i asesu’r costau wedi bod yn un trwyadl, a bod pob rhan o’r mudiad wedi edrych ar rheina—o'n sefydliad ni—wedi edrych ar rheina ac wedi mynd trwyddyn nhw. Efallai mae hwn yn foment i nodi ein bod ni wedi cymryd cyfleoedd, lle’n bosib, i leihau’r gost. Mi gytunodd y Comisiwn, wrth gwrs, dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i gael ymarferiad ail-frandio graffeg llwyr, felly, fydd yna ddim logo newydd ar gyfer enw newydd. Rŷn ni wedi edrych ar arwyddion a phethau, sydd yn bethau drud, o gwmpas yr ystâd, a lle mae’n bosib hepgor arwydd, er enghraifft, ar ochr yr adeilad hwn, Tŷ Hywel, mi fyddwn ni jest yn tynnu’r enw cyfredol o yna a ddim yn rhoi un arall nôl. Ar hyn o bryd, pan fo yna angen wedi codi ar gyfer eitemau fel carpedi, er enghraifft—roedd angen i ni adnewyddu un carped yn y fynedfa oherwydd bod dŵr wedi niweidio fe, yna mi wnaethon ni gael carped newydd oedd heb eiriau, jest efo’r logo a’r gair ‘Croeso’ fel dŷn ni ddim yn rhoi cost i ni’n hunain os bydd y Bil yma’n pasio.

Well, once again, I do feel that these costs are quite robust. I am quite comfortable, once again, that the exercise that took place to assess those costs has been thorough, and that all parts of the organisation have looked at that and gone through the costs in detail. This may be an appropriate time to note that we did take opportunities, where possible, to reduce the costs. The Commission agreed that we wouldn't have a full graphic rebranding exercise, so there will be no new logo to go along with the new name. We have looked at signage, which can be expensive, of course, around the estate, and where we can do without a sign, for example on the side of this building, Tŷ Hywel, we will simply withdraw the current sign and not replace it. At the moment, when a need has arisen for items such as carpets, for example—we needed to replace one carpet in the entry because it had been damaged by water, then we had a new carpet that didn't have any wording, just the logo and the word, 'Croeso/Welcome' so we're not putting extra costs on ourselves if this Bill passes.

Mae yna bwynt wedi cael ei wneud hefyd, wrth gwrs, fod y dyddiad yma o fis Mai 2020 ar gyfer mabwysiadu’r enw newydd, ond bod dim disgwyl, o reidrwydd, i hynny gael ei adlewyrchu mewn arwyddion, ac yn y blaen, o safbwynt Aelodau, tan 2021. Oes yna botensial am ddryswch yn y cyfnod yna a chostau, efallai, yn cael eu gwario’n gynt nag oeddech chi’n rhagweld? Oherwydd mae’n eithaf arwyddocaol—rwy’n siŵr y byddai rhai Aelodau yn dymuno cael hynny wedi'i adlewyrchu.

There's also been a point made that there is this date of May 2020 for adopting the new name, but there's no expectation, necessarily, that that will be adopted in the signage until 2021. Is there potential for confusion in there and costs being spent before you expect? Because it's quite significant, and I'm sure that some Members would like to see that reflected.

Wel, mi fydd tipyn o'r costau rŷn ni’n tybio—. Mi fydd tipyn o’r newidiadau yn gallu digwydd yn syth—pethau fel defnyddio’r derminoleg ar lythyron ac yn electronig ar wefannau ac ati, a chardiau busnes a’r math yma o beth, lle mae yna turnover eithaf sydyn ac mae’r stociau’n mynd i fod yn cael eu rheoli’n iawn ac mae’n hawdd i’w hadnewyddu nhw ac maen nhw’n cael eu hadnewyddu’n aml. O safbwynt costau arwyddion, yna mater i’r bwrdd taliadau bydd talu am arwyddion yn y pen draw, ac mae yna dybiaethau wedi cael eu hadeiladu i mewn i’r costau bydd arwyddion yn aros am flwyddyn, achos, wrth gwrs, mewn rhai achosion, efallai na fydd yr un enw ar yr arwyddion, felly mi fydd yn fodd i leihau’r costau. Os gallwn ni aros tan y flwyddyn 2021, yna mi fydd modd dechrau’r chweched Cynulliad efo set gyfan o arwyddion heb gost ychwanegol i’r pwrs cyhoeddus. Ond, yn amlwg, mi fydd hwnna’n fater i Aelodau unigol i benderfynu.

Well, many of the costs we anticipate—. Many of the changes will be able to happen immediately—things such as using the terminology on letterheads, electronically on websites, and business cards and so on, where there is quite a quick turnover and the stocks will be properly managed and they're easily replenished and are often replenished. In terms of the cost of signage, then, it's a matter for the remuneration board, ultimately, and it has been built into the costs that the signage will remain in place for a year, because, in some cases, the names will change, so it will be a way of reducing costs. If we can wait until the year 2021, then we will be able to start the sixth Assembly with a whole new collection of signage without cost to the public purse. But that will be a matter for individual Members to decide.

Iawn. Mae Alun eisiau dod i mewn ar hwn hefyd.

Fine. Alun wants to come in here too.

Dwi'n meddwl bod angen newid y ddelwedd ta beth, os dwi’n hollol frank gyda chi. Dwi ddim yn credu bod y ddelwedd bresennol yn dweud dim byd amboutu’r lle yma a beth mae’n ei wneud. Dwi ddim yn credu ei bod yn help i gyfathrebu neu nodi’r sefydliad mewn unrhyw ffordd o gwbl, ond dwi’n cymryd bod honno'n ddadl i ddiwrnod arall i heddiw.

Dwi’n cymryd bod y costau’n aros yr un peth beth bynnag ydy unrhyw enw newydd; dwi ddim yn credu bod yna gost ychwanegol i un opsiwn na’r llall. Rwy’n cymryd bod y gost yw’r gost.

I think that we need to change the image anyway, if I could be quite frank with you. I don't think the image says anything about this place and what it does. I don't think it communicates the nature of the institution at all, but I think that's a debate for another day.

I take it that the costs remain the same whatever the new name is. I don't think that there is an additional cost to one option, in terms of one name or another. I take it that the cost is the cost.

Na. Dyna chi, ie.

No. You're right, yes.

Fe sonioch chi am ddeunydd ysgrifennu, ac yn y blaen, ac, wrth gwrs, mae hyd at 95 y cant o'r £100,000 yn y gyllideb ar gyfer deunydd ysgrifenedig yn cael ei wario bob blwyddyn. Roeddwn i jest yn cysidro—. Rŷch chi'n defnyddio hwnna fel cost sylfaenol—y 95 y cant yma—ar gyfer pob un o'r pum mlynedd. Ydyw e'n deg tybio mai £95,000 fydd y gost bob blwyddyn am bum mlynedd? Hynny yw, does posib bod yna ryw elfen o amrywio, neu ai hwnna yw'r gost uchaf rŷch chi wedi'i chynnwys?

You mentioned stationery, and so forth, and up to 95 per cent of the £100,000 in the budget for stationery is spent every year. I was just wondering—. You're using that as a baseline costing for each of the five years. Is it fair to assume that £95,000 will be the cost for each of the five years? It is possible that there will be a variation, or is that the peak cost?

Hwnna yw'r gost uchaf; dyna'r amcangyfrif gorau y gallwn ni ei wneud ar sail gwariant cyfredol. Mae'n rhaid inni, wrth gwrs, roi ffigur penodol yn ein cyllidebau drafft ni yn hytrach nag ystod o ffigurau, a gan fod yr ystod yn un bach iawn yn nhermau deddfu, unwaith eto, mae hwn, fel y gwelwch chi, wedi bod yn arfer rŷn ni wedi mabwysiadu drwy gydol y memorandwm esboniadol, sef rhoi'r uchafswm yn hytrach nag ystod o gostau.

That is the peak cost; that's our best estimate on the basis of current spend. We, of course, have to put a specific figure in our draft budget rather than a range of figures, and, as that range is very small in relation to legislation, as you can see, this has been a practice that we have adopted throughout the explanatory memorandum, namely, providing a maximum rather than a range of costs.

Ocê. Y cwestiwn olaf gen i am y tro: pa gostau ŷch chi'n meddwl sydd â'r sicrwydd lleiaf o safbwynt y costau rŷch chi'n gyfrifol amdanyn nhw? Ac oni fyddai wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol cael dadansoddiad sensitifrwydd yn yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol er mwyn i ni allu testio impact, efallai, newid rhai o'r assumptions allweddol sydd yn y costau?

Okay. The final question from me for now: which costs have the least certainty in terms of the costs you're responsible for? And wouldn't it have been useful to have a sensitivity analysis in the regulatory impact assessment so that we could test the impact of changing some of the key assumptions in the costs?

Wel, dwi'n meddwl bod—. Mae yna dybiaethau wedi cael eu gwneud ac, wrth gwrs, lle mae hynny'n briodol, maen nhw wedi cael eu gosod allan yn y memorandwm esboniadol fel bod modd i'r pwyllgor, ac unrhyw un arall sy'n craffu, graffu'r tybiaethau yna hefyd. 

Dwi'n gyfforddus yn y methodoleg—er enghraifft, pan fo cost wedi cael ei seilio ar gost eitem sydd wedi cael ei brynu'n hanesyddol, fod yna addasiad wedi cael ei wneud ar gyfer chwyddiant yn y cyfnod ers y cyfnod diwethaf. Yn gyffredinol, oherwydd bod yr ystod cost yn gymharol fach, fel soniais i—a dwi'n meddwl bod y Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi ategu'r farn yma pan ddaeth e o'ch blaen chi yn ddiweddar—doedden ni ddim yn teimlo bod rhoi ystod costau o help i ystyried y materion sydd wrth law fan hyn, ac rŷn ni wedi gosod mwyafswm fel ffordd o fod yn hollol dryloyw ac yn adlewyrchu y costau y bydd yn rhaid inni roi o'ch blaen chi fel Comisiwn pan ddown ni atoch chi gyda chyllideb ddrafft. 

Well, I think—. Certain assumptions have been made, and, where appropriate, they have been set out in the explanatory memorandum so that the committee, and anyone else, can scrutinise those assumptions too. 

I am comfortable in the methodology—for example, that, when a cost is based on an item that has been purchased historically, some accommodation has been made for inflation, but, generally speaking, because the cost range is relatively small, as I mentioned—and I think the Counsel General echoed this view when he appeared before you recently—we didn't feel that providing a range of costs would be of assistance in considering the issues before us today, and we've put a maximum in place in terms of being entirely transparent in reflecting the cost that we will put before you as a Commission when we come before you with a draft budget. 

09:40

Bore da. Symud ymlaen at ostwng oedran pleidleisio a'r heriau o ran codi ymwybyddiaeth, mae'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol yn rhoi ffigur i ni o £150,000 ar gyfer codi ymwybyddiaeth. Allwch chi roi syniad i ni o sut gyrhaeddoch chi'r ffigur hwnnw, a pam eich bod chi'n ddigon hyderus yn y ffigur hwnnw nad oeddech chi'n teimlo y byddai rhoi ystod yn fanteisiol, felly? 

Good morning. Moving on to reducing the voting age and the challenges in terms of raising awareness, the RIA includes a figure of £150,000 for awareness raising. Could you give us an idea of how you arrived at that figure, and why are you sufficiently confident in that figure that you didn't feel that giving a range would be of benefit? 

Oherwydd bod hwnnw yn mynd i fod yn gost cyfraniad at ymgyrch lle mae yna sawl rhanddeiliaid yn mynd i fod yn cyfrannu at honno, yn cynnwys y Llywodraeth a'r Comisiwn Etholiadol, mae e yn fater o farn. Rŷn ni wedi gorfod barnu, ar sail beth dŷn ni wedi wario o'r blaen ar ymgyrchoedd yn arwain at etholiadau, beth fyddai'n gymwys. Mi fydd y gost yma yn dod o flaen y pwyllgor fel rhan o'n cyllideb ddrafft ni ar gyfer 2020-21 ymhen rhyw chwe mis. Felly, roedd yn rhaid inni ddewis ffigur, achos hwnnw yw'r ffigur cychwynnol fyddwn ni'n ei roi yn y gyllideb. Mae hwn yn mynd i fod yn rhan o'r gyllideb o £500,000—dyna beth rŷn ni'n meddwl sy'n addas ar hyn o bryd—bydd ar gyfer costau cyn-etholiadol cyffredinol yn y flwyddyn honno.

Mae hwnna'n seiliedig, fel roeddwn i'n ei ddweud, ar ein profiad ni o wariant o flaen etholiadau blaenorol. Cyn yr etholiad diwethaf, fe wariwyd o gwmpas £75,000—dwi'n siŵr bydd Nia yn fy nghywiro i os dwi'n anghywir—ar godi ymwybyddiaeth. Rŷn ni'n teimlo bydd yna fwy o alw i roi pwyslais ar yr elfen yna o'r gyllideb tro yma oherwydd bod yna newid, a bydd angen creu deunyddiau penodol a thargedu cynulleidfaoedd ifanc yn benodol. I raddau, dyw e ddim yn fater gwyddonol o weithio allan sut rŷn ni yn cyrraedd y £150,000 yna—mae'n profiad ni'n dweud y byddai'n swm i gynhyrchu ymgyrch addas. Ac, wrth gwrs, mi fyddwn ni'n gweithio'n agos iawn gyda rhanddeiliaid eraill er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr bod ni ddim yn dyblygu, ond bod ni i gyd yn gwario'n arian yn y ffordd fwyaf cost-effeithiol. 

Because that will be a cost where we will contribute to a campaign undertaken by a number of stakeholders, including the Government and the Electoral Commission, it's a matter of opinion. We have had to come to an opinion, on the basis of what we have spent in the past on campaigns leading up to elections, in terms of what would be appropriate. This cost will come before the committee as part of our draft budget for 2020-21 in some six months' time. So, we had to choose a figure, because that's the initial figure that we will place in the budget. This will be part of a budget of £500,000, which we think is appropriate, which will be for general pre-election costs in that year.

That, as I said, is based on our experience of expenditure pre-election in previous years. Before the last election, around £75,000 was spent on awareness raising—I'm sure Nia will correct me if that figure isn't correct—and we feel that there will be more demand to emphasise that element of the budget this time because of the change, and we will need to create specific materials and target young audiences particularly. To a certain extent, it's not an exact science in how we reach that £150,000—it's experience that's led us to that figure in terms of producing an effective campaign. And we will work closely with other stakeholders in order to make sure that there's no duplication, but that we all spend our money in the most cost-effective way possible.  

Ac dŷch chi'n hollol iawn—un o nifer o bartneriaid fydd y Comisiwn, ac un o'r partneriaid hynny, fel yr enwoch chi, ydy Llywodraeth Cymru. Beth fyddech chi'n disgwyl i'r cydbwysedd fod o ran pwy sy'n gwneud pa lefel o gyfraniad?  

And you're right—the Commission will be one of a number of partners, and one of the partners, as you mentioned, is the Welsh Government. What would you expect the balance to be in terms of who is providing what level of contribution? 

Wel, mae hwn yn mynd i fod yn rhywbeth i'w drafod. Rŷn ni eisoes, yn amlwg, yn trafod yn fanwl gyda chydweithwyr yn y Llywodraeth, ac mae yna gyfathrebu wedi bod rhwng y Llywydd a Gweinidogion ar y mater, ac mae'n siŵr cewch chi gyfle i holi'r Llywydd ynglŷn â hynny nes ymlaen. Rŷn ni wedi bod yn cydweithio ar faterion ymarferol, ond mae'r Llywodraeth wedi cynnwys yn eu llythyr nhw y bwriad o osod bwrdd llywio i fyny efo rhanddeiliaid allweddol, yn cynnwys mudiadau sy'n gweithio'n benodol gyda ieuenctid a mudiadau sy'n arbenigo ar addysg, a chyrraedd pobl efallai sydd ddim yn hawdd i'w cyrraedd drwy ysgolion. Felly, mi fydd y grŵp llywio yna, ac wedyn cydweithredu ymarferol agos iawn rhyngom ni a'r Llywodraeth, dwi'n gobeithio, yn gwneud yn siŵr bod yr ymgyrch yn mynd rhagddo fel un ymgyrch fawr, yn hytrach na nifer o ymgyrchoedd ar wahân.  

Well, this is going to be an issue for discussion. We are already, clearly, discussing in some detail with colleagues within Government, and there has been communication between the Llywydd and Ministers on this issue, and you'll have an opportunity to question the Llywydd on that later, I'm sure. We have been collaborating on practical issues, but the Government has included in its letter the intention of putting in place a steering board with key stakeholders, including organisations working particularly with young people and those working in education, and reaching those groups that perhaps can't be easily reached through schools. So, that steering group and practical collaboration on a basic level between ourselves and Government will ensure that the campaign will proceed as one major campaign, rather than many smaller campaigns.   

Ac mae un o'r llythyron gennym ni fel Aelodau fan hyn, lle mae'r Gweinidog yn sôn am amcangyfrif cost, ddywedwn ni, o gwmpas rhyw £900,000. Ac, wrth gwrs, doedd yna ddim costau ar gyfer codi ymwybyddiaeth Llywodraeth Cymru yn yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol. 

And one of the letters before us has the Minister talking about a cost estimate of about £900,000. Of course, there weren't any costs for raising awareness for the Welsh Government in the RIA. 

Doedd y costau yna ddim ar gael ar y pryd. 

Those costs weren't available at the time. 

A ddylai bod alarm bells yn codi i ni bod yna gost eithaf sylweddol fel yna wedi dod i mewn yn hwyr, ac oes yna unrhyw berthynas rhwng y swm mawr yna a'r £150,000 sydd wedi cael ei amcangyfrif gan y Comisiwn fel eich cyfraniad chi?

So, should alarm bells be ringing for us in terms of the fact that there's quite a significant cost that has come in late, and is there any relationship between that significant amount and the £150,000 that has been estimated by the Commission as your contribution?

09:45

I ddechrau, mae'r swm yna dros gyfnod o dair mlynedd, dwi'n meddwl, felly dyw hwnna ddim yn swm mewn un flwyddyn. Yn amlwg, rŷn ni'n blaengynllunio fan hyn lle mae'n cost ni. Y bwriad yw gwario fe yn ystod y flwyddyn sydd yn arwain i fyny at yr etholiad, i baratoi ar gyfer yr etholiad cyntaf. Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n weddol gymwys, mae hwnna'n cyd-fynd. Ond ein bod ni'n gwneud yn siŵr bod y cydweithredu yn real ac yn adeiladol, yna dwi'n gweld hwnna'n gweithio'n eithaf da. 

Firstly, that figure is over a period of three years, I think, so that isn't expenditure in one year. Obviously, we are forward planning here where our costs are. Our intention is to spend that in the year leading up to the election, in preparation for that first election. I think that is right and proper. Just as long as we ensure that that collaboration is real and constructive, I can see it working quite well.

Jest i godi pwynt, roeddech chi'n dweud bod y ffigurau ddim ar gael o safbwynt y Llywodraeth. Wrth gwrs, mae'r ffigurau yna mewn llythyr gan y Llywodraeth ddiwedd Ionawr. 

Just to raise a point, you said that the figures weren't available from the Government. But of course those figures are in a letter from the Government at the end of January.

Ie, ond ddim ar gyfer pan roedd y memorandwm esboniadol yn cael ei roi at ei gilydd.

Yes, but not for when the explanatory memorandum was being put together.

Reit, achos mi osodwyd y Bil wedi hynny, ond do? So, mi fyddai wedi bod yn bosib efallai adlewyrchu ychydig o hynny. Ond dyna fe, mae'n gwestiwn i'r Llywydd efallai wedi hynny.

But the Bill was tabled after that, wasn't it? So, it would have been possible to reflect some of that. Maybe that's a question for the Llywydd. 

Jest un cwestiwn penodol arall gen i: sut mae amcangyfrifon y costau codi ymwybyddiaeth yn adlewyrchu gofynion gweithio efo sector o'r boblogaeth sydd ddim wedi cael eu gweithio efo nhw o'r blaen, sef plant 14 a 15 oed a'r angen am brotocols a systemau mewn lle ar gyfer gwarchod y rheini ac ati?

Just one more specific question from me: how do the cost estimates for raising awareness reflect the requirements of working with a sector of the population that you haven't worked with previously, namely 14 and 15-year-olds and the need for protocols and systems to be put in place to safeguard them and so forth?

Yn hollol. Mae yna ddarpariaethau penodol wrth gwrs yn Rhan 3 y Bil ynglŷn â chofrestru a diogelu gwybodaeth pobl ifanc iau nag 16 oed yn y broses honno, ond yn amlwg nid mater i'r Comisiwn yw hynny. O safbwynt strategaethau cyfathrebu, mae arbenigedd wedi'i fagu gan y Comisiwn yn y maes yma dros y blynyddoedd o ymgysylltu ag ysgolion, ac o gyfathrebu'n arbennig efo ysgolion. Mi gafodd yr arbenigedd yna ei danlinellu yn ystod y broses ddiweddar o gynllunio ar gyfer y Senedd Ieuenctid. Felly, mae gyda ni bobl sydd yn brofiadol ac wedi arfer â'r gofal penodol ac arbennig sydd angen ei gymryd efo pobl ifanc yn y sefydliad. 

Exactly. There are specific provisions in Part 3 of the Bill in terms of registration and protecting the data of people below the age of 16 in that process, but clearly that isn't a matter for the Commission. In terms of communication strategies, we have developed expertise within the Commission in this area over the years in engaging with schools, and in communicating with schools. That expertise was highlighted during the recent process of planning for the Youth Parliament. Therefore, we do have people in place who are experienced and are well used to the specific issues that need to be taken into account with young people. 

Felly, mae'r costau o roi'r mathau yna o drefniadau mewn lle wedi cael eu hysgwyddo'n barod, mewn ffordd.

So, the costs of putting those arrangements in place have been included, in a way.

Wedi cael eu cynnwys—ydyn, maen nhw.

Yes, they have.

Ydw. Dwi'n edrych ar y gost o £150,000 i godi ymwybyddiaeth. Dwi'n ystyried hynny ar ben y gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud o ddydd i ddydd—y gwaith outreach dŷch chi'n gwneud. Mae'n taro fi, ro'n i'n eistedd mewn sesiwn yn cael ei chynnal gan—ro'n i'n mynd i ddweud Senedd Lloegr—Senedd Prydain cwpwl o wythnosau yn ôl, ro'n nhw'n sôn amboutu sut mae Senedd San Steffan yn gweithio a beth mae Senedd San Steffan yn gwneud, heb sôn amboutu Senedd Cymru o gwbl. Doedd dim sôn o gwbl yn ystod awr o gyflwyniad. Ro'n i'n ystyried hynny fel cyfle coll. Dwi'n cymryd bod ein gweithwyr ni yn gwneud bron a bod yr un peth, yn gweithio mewn paralel. Mae'n taro fi y dylsech chi fel Comisiwn fan hyn a'r comisiwn yn San Steffan ddod at eich gilydd i wneud y math yna o waith, i godi ymwybyddiaeth o'n sefydliadau democrataidd ar y cyd a gyda'ch gilydd, a ddim ar wahân. Achos mae ar wahân oherwydd ei fod yn siwtio ni fan hyn, achos mae'n rhwyddach i ni nag yw e i'r bobl dŷn ni'n eu gwasanaethu. Mi fyddai'r gost o godi ymwybyddiaeth wedyn yn cael ei adlewyrchu fwy mewn cyfathrebu strwythur llywodraethol y Deyrnas Unedig mewn ffordd mwy cyfan nag ar wahân.

Yes. I'm looking at the cost of £150,000 to raise awareness. I consider that to be on top of the work that's being done from day to day—the outreach work that you do. It strikes me, I was part of a session that was undertaken by—I was going to say the English Parliament—the UK Parliament a couple of weeks ago, and they were talking about how the Westminster Parliament works and what that Parliament does, but they didn't mention the Welsh Parliament at all during an hour-long presentation. I consider that to be a missed opportunity. I take it that our staff are doing almost exactly the same thing, working in parallel. It strikes me that you as a Commission here and the commission in Westminster should come together to do this kind of work in terms of raising awareness of our democratic institutions jointly and together, not separately. It's separate because it suits us here, because it's easier for us than it is for the people we serve. The cost of raising awareness then would be reflected more in communicating the governmental structures of the UK in a more complete way, rather than separately.

Buasai'n dda gen i gael sgwrs pellach â chi ynglŷn â hynny. Mae yna dipyn o gydweithio, fel mae'n digwydd bod, rhwng yr adrannau addysg gyhoeddus, fel petai, yn y gwahanol Seneddau, yn adlewyrchu cydweithredu ar bob lefel. Dwi'n cael cyfarfodydd aml gyda'r clercod eraill ar draws Prydain hefyd. Mae'n siomedig felly i ddeall mai dyna'ch profiad chi, achos mi fyddwn i'n cefnogi'r pwynt dŷch chi'n ei wneud bod addysg civic yn rhywbeth y gellir ei ddysgu o sawl cyfeiriad. 

I'd be happy to have a further conversation on that. There is a fair bit of collaboration, as it happens, between the public education departments in the various Parliaments, which reflects collaboration on all levels. I have regular meetings with the other clerks across Britain too. Therefore, it's disappointing to learn that that's your experience, because I would support the point that you make that civic education is something that can be learned from a number of different directions.

So, dŷch chi'n cytuno y dylai un rhaglen fod yng Nghymru, Lloegr a'r Alban, ac nid dwy raglen.

So, you agree that there should be one programme for Wales, England and Scotland, not two programmes.

Buaswn i ddim yn mynd mor bell â hynny heb ddeall ychydig bach yn fwy at beth rŷch chi'n cyfeirio.

I wouldn't go quite that far without understanding to what exactly you're referring. 

Dwi'n meddwl bod angen i ni gynllunio a darparu rhaglen sydd yn addas ar gyfer pobl ifanc Cymru.

I do think that we need to plan and provide a programme that is appropriate for the young people of Wales.

09:50

Sy'n addas ar eu cyfer nhw, ac mae hynny'n meddwl eu bod nhw'n deall rôl Senedd Cymru, rôl Senedd y Deyrnas Unedig a sut mae'r sefydliadau democrataidd, gan gynnwys y llywodraethau gwahanol yng Nghymru, yn cyd-weithio i greu ein democratiaeth ni a ddim ei wneud e ar wahân. 

That is appropriate for them, and that entails that they understand the role of the Welsh Parliament, the role of the UK Parliament and how the democratic institutions, including the different governments in Wales, collaborate to create our democracy, and not do it separately. 

Ie, wel, fel roeddwn i'n ei ddweud, mae yna gyfathrebu rhwng y bobl sy'n darparu hyn, ac rwy'n siŵr bod yna lot i'w ddysgu o gymharu sut y mae pobl yn mynd o'i chwmpas hi a'r adnoddau sy'n cael eu creu i ddisgrifio'r strwythur yma. Wrth gwrs, dyw e ddim yn rhywbeth statig. Mae'r ffordd rŷm ni'n trafod Bil nawr sydd yn gyfansoddiadol—mae pethau'n datblygu drwy'r amser, yn enwedig ar hyn o bryd, ac mae yna lot o le i rannu arfer gorau, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, a thrio cael y mwyaf o effaith am y lleiaf o gost wrth inni symud ymlaen. Mae'n rhywbeth sydd ar ein meddyliau ni, ond diolch am y cyfraniad am hynny. 

Well, as I said, there is communication between those people who provide these services, and I'm sure that there is a lot to be learned from comparing how people go about it and the resources that are generated to describe these structures. Of course, it's not static. The way we are discussing a constitutional Bill today—things do constantly develop and evolve, particularly at the moment, and there's a lot of scope to share good practice, as I said, and to try to have the greatest impact for as small a cost as possible as we move forward. That's something that's on our minds, but thank you for that contribution. 

Following on from a question Rhun asked earlier, surely a solution for 14 and 15-year-olds is not to have them on the public register. Anybody can decide not to go on the public register. There's a little tick-box to say you don't want to go on the public register, so you just keep them on the private register and not the public one. I don't see any costs to that, it's just—. In fact, there might actually be a saving, because they're not printing them on the public one. 

I think that's a policy matter, so it strays beyond what I can comment on, but in terms of the background, yes, I agree with the point in terms of the cost. 

Actually, it's neither a policy matter nor a matter for here; it's an administrative matter. 

Coming on to the £150,000, you said it's going to be £600,000 across four organisations. Is it serendipity that you are exactly one quarter of it?

It is, actually. Yes. [Laughter.]

Following on from that, then, how are you going to ensure that there's no overlap and people are working together in a co-ordinated manner?

I think that what we have already is close co-operation at official level. And, as I mentioned in answer to Rhun's question, we are setting up a steering group with stakeholders involved—and not just from the Government and the Commission, but also youth organisations and educational organisations. We will work very closely with that, and the Llywydd has suggested some organisations that should be represented on that. So we will need to work together into the future. 

And the other question is: we know there's one thing all 16-year-olds do, or virtually every 16-year-old does, and that's register for a national insurance number. Have you considered the administrative ability to use that registration as a double registration, using the Department for Work and Pensions for electoral registration as well? Because you know—. For the national insurance number, they have to give their name and address, and their post code, so you can identify where they should be.

I'm aware of the issue, yes. If there's a policy decision to adopt automatic registration, then I can see that what you describe would be the case. As accounting officer for the National Assembly, I think the desirability of doing it is not really a matter I should comment on. 

Yes. They wouldn't be savings for the Assembly Commission, though. 

For the public purse. 

For the public purse, and the Assembly Commission relies on the public purse for virtually all its money, and the more money we don't spend on some things, the more money you've got available. 

Well, I'm sure that—. I will be very interested to see what recommendations this committee comes to and, obviously, I will do my best to facilitate positive outcomes to those, and I'm sure the Llywydd will have more to say on that later, as well. 

Gan droi at drefniadau goruchwylio a'r Bil yn rhoi dyletswydd ar y Cynulliad i ystyried trefniadau cyllidol a goruchwylio ar gyfer gwaith y Comisiwn Etholiadol. Mae'r Comisiwn Etholiadol wedi cyfeirio at y trafodaethau maen nhw wedi'u cael efo'r Comisiwn ynglŷn â newidiadau i drefniadau goruchwylio ers mis Rhagfyr 2017—ffigwr sydd, yn yr asesiad effaith, yn £39,200, a hynny ar gyfer amser staff dros bum mlynedd. Ydy hwnnw'n amcangyfrif cywir, dŷch chi'n credu?

Turning to the oversight arrangements and the Bill imposing a duty on the Assembly to consider the funding and oversight arrangements for the work of the Electoral Commission. The Electoral Commission has referred to the discussions they've had with the Assembly Commission regarding changes to oversight arrangements since December 2017—the figure in the regulatory impact assessment is £39,200 for staff time over a five-year period. Is that an accurate estimate, do you think?

09:55

Wel, dwi wedi adolygu'r tybiaethau sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ffigwr yna a dwi'n gyfforddus gyda'r ffigwr yna, yn hyn o beth ei fod e'n ateb y galw yn y Bil o fod yn gofyn i'r Cynulliad graffu, ystyried a gwneud argymhellion ar y mater yma yn y dyfodol.

Well, I have reviewed the assumptions that have contributed to that figure, and I am comfortable with it, in that it does meet the demands of the Bill in requiring the Assembly to scrutinise, consider and to make recommendations on this particular issue in the future.

Mae'r ffigwr yna hefyd yn cyfeirio at y gwaith o graffu. Mae yna waith o sefydlu trefniadaeth graffu. Ydy'r ffigwr yn cynnwys y gwaith yna, p'un ai ydy o'n adnoddau dynol neu'n adnoddau eraill o roi pethau yn eu lle ar gyfer y gwaith craffu?

This figure also refers to the work of scrutiny. There is work to establish the arrangements for scrutiny. Does that figure include that work, whether in terms of human resources or other resources, in terms of putting things in place for that scrutiny?

Mae'r costau yn y memorandwm esboniadol er mwyn tryloywder, ond yr ateb i'ch cwestiwn chi yw 'na', achos fyddwn ni ddim yn gallu amcangyfrif yn gywir beth fydd costau'r gwaith ei hun nes bod yna welliannau yn dod ymlaen, os bydd yna welliannau’n dod ymlaen. Ac felly, mi fyddwn ni'n cyfrannu at y gwaith yna o amcangyfrif costau unwaith i ni wybod beth yw'r argymhellion. 

The costs are in the explanatory memorandum for the sake of transparency, but the answer to your question is 'no', because we wouldn't be able to accurately estimate the costs of that work itself until amendments are tabled, if amendments are to be tabled. And we will contribute to that work of estimating costs once we know what the recommendations are.

Ac mi fydd hynny'n cael ei gyhoeddi wrth inni gyrraedd y pwynt priodol.

And that will be published at an appropriate stage.

Gaf i jest ddod i mewn? Sut felly dŷn ni, fel Pwyllgor Cyllid, yn mynd i gael cyfle i graffu hynny? Oherwydd unwaith dŷn ni wedi cyrraedd Cyfnod 2 a gwelliannau, dŷn ni wedi gwneud ein hargymhellion i bob pwrpas, ond do, ynglŷn â chostau?

Can I just come in? How are we, as a Finance Committee, going to have an opportunity to scrutinise that? Because once we reach Stage 2 and the amendments, we'll have made our recommendations to all intents and purposes, won't we, about the costs?

Unwaith eto, dwi'n meddwl efallai bod ni'n symud i dir amserlen ddeddfwriaeth yn fanna sydd ddim yn rhywbeth y dylwn i fynegi barn arno fe. Ond yn sicr, o'n safbwynt ni, fel Comisiwn, mi fyddwn ni'n gwneud ein gorau i ddarparu gwybodaeth ariannol i gyd-fyd ag unrhyw welliannau, i roi cyngor ynglŷn â goblygiadau ariannol unrhyw welliannau sy'n codi. Ac, wrth gwrs, os yw'r pwyllgor yma'n dymuno cael unrhyw wybodaeth bellach neu graffu ar unrhyw beth pellach yng nghwrs y ddeddfwriaeth, yna gwnawn ni ein gorau i hwyluso hynny. 

Once again, perhaps we are moving on to the ground of the legislative timetable, which isn't something that I should express a view on. But certainly, from our perspective, as a Commission, we will do our very best to provide financial information in relation to any amendments, to provide advice on the financial implications of any amendments tabled. And, if this committee wishes to receive any further information or to scrutinise anything further in the course of the legislation, we will do our best to facilitate that.

Ac yn olaf, rwy'n teimlo y bydd hwn yn rhywbeth y gallwch chi wneud sylw arno fo. Mae'r Llywydd a'r Comisiwn wedi gwneud datganiadau, wedi siarad efo'r pwyllgor neu wedi rhoi tystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor o ran hynny yn disgrifio diwygiadau a allai gael eu gwneud yng Nghyfnod 2 yn ymwneud â datganoli cyllid. Beth fyddai'r goblygiadau i'r Comisiwn? 

Finally, I feel this may be something that you can comment on this. The Llywydd and the Commission have made statements, have spoken to the committee or have given evidence to the committee describing the amendments that could be made at Stage 2 relating to the devolution of funding. What would be the implications for the Commission?

Wel, unwaith eto, mae e'n anodd dweud yn union heb wybod beth yw'r cynnig. Yn gyffredinol, os yw'r trefniadau'n gweithio fel y maen nhw yn San Steffan gyda'r speaker's committee yn fanna, yna dŷn ni ddim yn rhagweld y bydd yna gostau ychwanegol na ellir eu cynnwys yng nghostau dydd-i-ddydd y Comisiwn. Bydd e'n fater o graffu ychwanegol ac mae'n dibynnu a fydd yna bwyllgor newydd yn cael ei sefydlu neu beth bynnag, ond yn gyffredinol, dyma'r math o newidiadau y byddem ni'n eu hystyried fel rhan o'n haddasiadau dydd-i-ddydd ni beth bynnag.  

Well, once again, it's difficult to say exactly without knowing what the proposals are. Generally speaking, if the arrangements work as they currently do in Westminster with the speaker's committee there, then we don't anticipate additional costs that couldn't be included in the day-to-day running costs of the Commission. There will be an issue of additional scrutiny and it depends if a new committee is established, and so on and so forth, but, generally speaking, these are the kinds of changes that we would consider as being part of our day-to-day adaptations in any case.

Ac yn rhan o gostau craidd heb fod yn gostau ychwanegol.

And part of the core costs without there being additional costs.

Just for clarification, the financial details or financial impacts set out in the explanatory memorandum are what they are today without any further amendments. So, there's nothing in all the expenditure, or expected expenditure, likely to occur as the Bill sits now that is not in the explanatory memorandum.

I am comfortable that that is the case.

Dŷn ni'n mynd drwy broses o newid, beth bynnag ydy'r newid yn mynd i fod, a dwi'n gyfforddus iawn gyda'r costau dŷch chi wedi eu cynnig i ni fel mae'n digwydd. Dwi'n credu bod yna bethau eraill licien i eu gweld yn cael eu gwneud sydd yn ychwanegol at beth sydd o'n blaen ni, ond dwi'n cymryd bod hynny'n sgwrs ar gyfer rhywbryd arall. Ond, dwi'n cymryd hefyd y byddwch chi a bod gyda chi mewn lle broses o adolygu'r newid yma. So, dŷch chi ddim jest yn rheoli costau fel dŷch chi wedi ei ddisgrifio i ni'r bore yma, ond dŷch chi'n disgwyl edrych yn ôl hefyd ac yn ystyried hynny ac yn adolygu'r broses o newid.  

We're going through a process of change, whatever the change will be, and I'm comfortable with the costs that you've proposed as it happens. I think there are other things that I'd like to see being done in addition to what's before us, but I do take it that that's a discussion for another day. But, I also take it that you will have and that you have in place a process of reviewing this change. So, you're not just controlling the costs as you've described to us this morning, but you expect to look back as well and consider that and review that process of change.

Rhan o'r agwedd rŷn ni wedi'i gymryd at y costau fel maen nhw wedi cael eu mynegi yn y memorandwm esboniadol yw hwyluso craffu ôl-ddeddfwriaethol, a gwneud y math yna o adolygiad. Mi fyddwn i'n croesawu ac yn disgwyl hynny. Yn amlwg, o safbwynt costau'r Comisiwn, mi fyddwn ni'n adrodd ar y rheini yn y ffordd arferol, ac mi fydd y rheini'n cael eu craffu gan y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus. Felly, bydd modd inni edrych nôl ar y costau hynny yng nghwrs busnes, a hefyd, yn fwy hirdymor, wrth gwrs, edrych ar ganlyniadau'r ddeddfwriaeth ar ein trefniadau cyfansoddiadol ac etholiadol ni. Bydd hwnna'n rhywbeth i edrych arno fe yn fwy yn yr hirdymor. Ond yn sicr, mi wnawn ni yn y Comisiwn bopeth y gallwn ni i hwyluso'r math yna o ymarferiad.

Part of the approach that we've adopted to the costs, as they've been set out in the explanatory memorandum, is to facilitate post-legislative scrutiny, and carrying out that kind of review. I would welcome and expect that. Obviously, in terms of Commission cost, we will be reporting on those in the usual manner, and they will be scrutinised by the Public Accounts Committee. Therefore, we will be able to look back at those costs in the course of business and also, in the longer term, in looking at the effect of the legislation on our constitutional and electoral arrangements. That will be something that can be looked at in the longer term. But in the Commission we will do everything we can to facilitate that kind of exercise.

10:00

Ocê. A gaf i jest ofyn pa drafodaethau ŷch chi wedi'u cael gyda'r Llywydd a Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch costau gweithredu argymhellion Comisiwn y Gyfraith?

Okay. Could I just ask, then, what discussions you've had with the Llywydd and the Welsh Government in terms of implementing the recommendations of the Law Commission?

Wel, dwi'n gwybod bod y tîm sy'n cefnogi'r Llywydd yn paratoi'r Bil yma wedi bod yn siarad gyda swyddogion y Llywodraeth. Mae'r costau'r ddarpariaeth sydd yn y Bil yn amlwg yn fychan iawn. Os bydd y Bil yn cael ei basio fel y mae e, a bod y grymoedd yma yn cael eu gweithredu, yna mater i Weinidogion y Llywodraeth fydd hynny, ac mi fydd ymateb i unrhyw ddatblygiadau fel yna, unwaith eto, yn rhan o gostau creiddiol y Cynulliad. Mi fydd hi'n fater o fusnes fel arfer, dydd i ddydd, yn ymateb i gostau craffu ychwanegol gallai ddod yn y dyfodol.

Well, I do know that the team supporting the Llywydd in preparing this Bill have been speaking to Government officials. The costs of the provisions contained within the Bill are clearly small. If the Bill is passed as currently drafted and these powers are implemented, then it will be a matter for Government Ministers, and responding to any such developments will again be part of the core costs of the Assembly. It will be a matter of business as usual, and responding to additional scrutiny costs for the future.

Achos barn Llywodraeth Cymru yw mai'r Cynulliad, yn hytrach na Llywodraeth Cymru, ddylai arwain y gwaith o ddatblygu'r newidiadau yma. Ydych chi'n teimlo, petai hynny'n digwydd, fod gennych chi'r adnoddau a'r amser angenrheidiol i'w wneud e?

Because the opinion of the Welsh Government is that the Assembly rather than the Welsh Government should lead on the work of developing these changes. Do you feel that you would have the resources and the time to do that?

Wel, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, fy swydd i bob dydd yw gwneud yn siŵr bod yr adnoddau yma. Mae gen i ddyletswydd statudol i wneud yn siŵr bod yr adnoddau gan y Cynulliad i wneud ei waith, ac mi fyddwn ni'n parhau i wneud hynny. Dwi'n hyderus y byddwn i'n gallu ymateb petai hynny yn digwydd.

Well, as I said, in my day-to-day job I have a statutory duty, indeed, to ensure that the Assembly has the necessary resource to carry out its functions, and we will continue to do that. I'm confident that we will be able to respond if that were to happen.

A oes gan Aelodau unrhyw gwestiynau pellach, neu ydyn ni'n hapus gyda hynny? Iawn. Wel, gaf i ddiolch o galon i chi am ddod atom ni? Diolch am eich tystiolaeth. Yn amlwg, fe fydd cyfle i chi wirio'r trawsgrifiad i wneud yn siŵr bod y cyfan wedi'i fynegi yn y modd yr oeddech chi wedi'i obeithio. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod atom ni. Mi wnaiff y pwyllgor dorri nawr tan 10:20. Diolch yn fawr.

Do Members have any further questions, or are we content with that? Okay. Thank you very much for joining us and thank you for the evidence. Evidently, there will be an opportunity for you to check the transcript to ensure that everything has been expressed in the way that you had hoped. Thank you very much for joining us. The committee will take a short break now, until 10:20. Thank you very much.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:02 a 10:10.

The meeting adjourned between 10:02 and 10:10.

10:10
4. Sesiwn graffu ar y Bil Senedd ac Etholiadau (Cymru): Comisiwn y Cynulliad 2
4. Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill scrutiny session: Assembly Commission 2

Croeso nôl i Bwyllgor Cyllid y Cynulliad. Gaf i groesawu ein tystion nesaf ni? Rwy'n croesawu'n arbennig Elin Jones, y Llywydd, a'i swyddogion, Tom Jackson ac Anna Daniel. Croeso i chi i gyd. Os ŷch chi'n hapus, awn ni'n syth i gwestiynau. Mi gychwynnaf i, os caf i. Mae ein sesiynau tystiolaeth ni gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, y Comisiwn Etholiadol a Chomisiwn y Cynulliad wedi dangos sut y maen nhw wedi mewnbynnu costau ar gyfer eu sefydliadau nhw. Gaf i ofyn pa asesiad wnaethoch chi er mwyn profi pa mor rhesymol oedd yr asesiadau hynny ganddyn nhw?

Welcome back to the Finance Committee at the National Assembly. Could I welcome our next witnesses? I welcome in particular Elin Jones, the Llywydd, and her officials Tom Jackson and Anna Daniel. Welcome to you all. If you're happy, we will go straight into questions. I'll start, if I may. Our evidence sessions with the Welsh Government, the Electoral Commission and the Assembly Commission have highlighted how they have inputted the costs for their organisations. What assessment did you undertake to consider how reasonable those estimates are?

Wel, rŷch chi'n gywir i ddweud bod y cydweithio rhyngom ni a'r cyrff hynny wedi bod yn agos iawn oherwydd natur yr hyn sydd yn deillio o'r Mesur yma, ac yn enwedig o safbwynt yr etholfraint ac ymestyn yr etholfraint i bobl ifanc 16 a 17 oed, gan fod llywodraeth leol yn enwedig, a'r Comisiwn Etholiadol, yn mynd i fod yn rhan ganolog o weithredu ar hynny, gyda Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd. Felly, rŷn ni wedi derbyn nifer o'r asesiadau costau—gan taw nhw yw'r arbenigwyr a'r bobl fydd yn gweithredu ar hyn—oddi wrth y cyrff yna. Rŷn ni wedi trafod y costau hynny gyda'r cyrff hynny ac rŷn ni'n weddol o hyderus bod yr hyn rŷn ni wedi ei dderbyn a'i gyflwyno yn yr—

Well, you're right to say that collaboration between us and those bodies has been very close, because of the nature of what stems from this Bill, and particularly from the perspective of extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, given that local authorities, in particular, and the Electoral Commission, are going to be a central part of implementing that, with the Welsh Government as well. So, we have accepted a number of the cost estimates—because they are the experts and the people who will be implementing this—from those bodies. We have discussed those costs with those bodies and we're quite confident that what we've received and what we've set out in the—

Yr asesiad effaith reoleiddiol. 

The regulatory impact assesment.

Asesiad effaith, ie—diolch—bod hynny mor agos ac y gallwn ni fod at yr hyn rŷn ni'n rhagweld fydd yn digwydd. Efallai o ran y drafodaeth fanwl a ddigwyddodd a'r asesiad mwy manwl ar y costau hynny, fe wna i gyfeirio at naill ai Tom neu Anna i ymateb ar hynny. P'un ohonoch chi sy'n gwneud?

Yes, the RIA—thank you—that it is as close as possible to what we foresee will happen. In terms of the detailed discussion and the more detailed assessment of the costs, I'll ask maybe Tom or Anna to respond on that. Which of you would like to contribute?

Gwnaf i ymateb ar hynny. Fe wnaethon ni hefyd ddefnyddio costau yn seiliedig ar adroddiad wnaeth y Comisiwn Etholiadol yn 2011 ar gyfer asesu costau yn ymwneud â rhedeg etholiadau. Dŷn ni'n hyderus mai'r rheini ydy'r costau gorau fedrwn ni eu defnyddio—y rhai mwyaf cynhwysfawr sydd wedi eu cynhyrchu hyd yn hyn ar gostau etholiadau.

I'll respond on that. We also used costs based on a report carried out by the Electoral Commission in 2011 to assess costs related to running elections. We are confident that those are the best costs—the most comprehensive ones that have been produced to date on the costs of elections.

Ond mi fyddai'r rheini wedi dyddio tipyn ers 2011, wrth gwrs.

But they would have dated considerably since 2011, of course. 

Bydden, ond dŷn ni dal yn creud mai'r rhain ydy—. Hwnna ydy'r unig adroddiad sydd wedi ei gynhyrchu sydd yn cynnwys ystod eang o gostau etholiadau, sydd yn cynnwys costau rhedeg etholiad o ran tîm, costau postio, dylunio—yr holl gostau. Felly, dŷn ni'n credu mai hwnna o hyd yw'r sail gorau ar gyfer y memorandwm esboniadol. 

Yes, but we still believe that these—. That's the only report produced that includes a broad range of electoral costs, including the costs in terms of running an election, the team, postage, design—all sorts of other things. So, we still believe that that's the best basis for the explanatory memorandum. 

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr. A wnaethoch chi ymgynghori yn benodol, felly, ynglŷn â goblygiadau cost i unrhyw sefydliadau eraill y gallai'r Bil fod yn effeithio arnyn nhw?

Okay. Thank you. Did you consult specifically in terms of the cost implications for other organisations that may be affected by the Bill?

Do, fe wnaethon ni ymgynghori gyda llywodraeth leol, y Comisiwn Etholiadol—

Yes, we consulted with local authorities, the Electoral Commission—

Mae'n ddrwg gen i—tu hwnt i'r rhai sydd yn cael eu crybwyll.

I'm sorry—I'm talking about going beyond those that are mentioned.

Do, mi fuon ni'n trafod gyda rhai partneraid eraill, ond o ran darganfod ar bwy yn union fydd y costau yna'n disgyn, dwi'n credu ein bod ni wedi ffocysu ar y rheini fydd yn gyfrifol am 'implement-o' y polisi, os hoffwch chi—felly, llywodraeth leol a'r Comisiwn Etholiadol ydy'r prif bartneriaid, a Llywodraeth Cymru.

Yes, we did have discussions with some other partners, but in terms of identifying who exactly would bear those costs, I think we have focused on those who will be responsible for implementing the policy, if you like—so, local government and the Electoral Commission are the main partners, along with the Welsh Government.

Llywodraeth leol, wrth gwrs, sydd yn mynd i fod yn cario'r baich mwyaf o safbwynt y costau sydd yn deillio yn sgil y Bil yma. I ba raddau gafodd cywirdeb y costau yma ac, yn wir, baich y costau yma eu trafod yn uniongyrchol gydag awdurdodau lleol eu hunain?

Local authorities, of course, will have to carry the greatest burden in terms of the cost that will emanate from this Bill. To what extent was the accuracy of these costs and the burden they involve discussed directly with local authorities themselves?

Mae prif gostau'r Bil yma yn ymwneud ag ymestyn yr etholfraint i oed 16 ac 17, ac wrth gwrs llywodraeth leol sydd yn gweinyddu'r etholiadau hynny a'r canfas ar gyfer yr etholfraint. Felly, ie, yn naturiol, ar lywodraeth leol mae'r byrdwn yna yn cwympo. Ac wrth gwrs, rŷn ni wedi bod yn trafod gyda llywodraeth leol, y swyddogion etholiadau yn benodol sydd yn arwain ar hynny, ac felly mae yna drafodaeth wedi bod ac yn parhau gyda nhw o ran cydweithio ar sut fydd gwahanol elfennau o'r Mesur yma yn cael eu rhoi ar waith. O ran y drafodaeth gyda llywodraeth leol yn benodol—

The main costs of this Bill relate to extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, and, course, local government administers those elections and the canvass for the franchise. So, yes, naturally, that burden will fall on local authorities. Of course, we have been having discussions with local government and election officers particularly who lead on that aspect, and therefore there has been a discussion that continues with them in terms of collaboration on how various elements of this Bill will be implemented. But in terms of the discussion specifically with local government—

10:15

So, as the Llywydd's outlined, we've had coversations with the WLGA and with a number of individual local authorities. We've also had dialogue with Socitm, the society of all Wales's local authorities' directors of ICT, so that there's been ongoing engagement with local authorities around their potential costings in the Bill.

Ocê. Mae rhai o'r ffigurau'n awgrymu efallai bod cost awdurdod lleol safonol wedi cael ei luosogi 22 o weithiau. Yn amlwg, mi fyddai costau'n amrywio o un—byddwn i'n tybio—awdurdod lleol i'r llall oherwydd nodweddion penodol. Felly, oes yna risg bod hynny efallai ddim cweit yn ddigon cywir? Ydy e'n rhy simplistig i luosogi â 22?

Some of the figures suggest that a standard local authority cost has been multiplied by 22 local authorities. Evidently, the cost would vary, I would suspect, from one local authority to another, because of specific characteristics. So, is there a risk that perhaps that isn't accurate enough? Or is it too simplistic to multiply it 22 times? 

Wel, yn gyffredinol mae hynny'n wir o ran sut mae'r costau wedi cael eu dylunio. Mae yna enghreifftiau, wrth gwrs, lle dyw hynny ddim yn wir. Er enghraifft, yng nghyd-destun newid enw, mae yna gostau mwy yn cwympo ar gyngor fel Caerdydd, oherwydd bod y lle yma yng Nghaerdydd, na beth sydd ar rai o'r awdurdodau eraill. Felly, mae'r asesiad costau'n adlewyrchu rhyw gymaint o hynny. Ond o ran yr etholfraint, yna mae'r hyn rŷch chi wedi'i ddisgrifio'n fwy cywir o ran hynny. 

Well, generally speaking that's true in terms of how the costs have been drawn up. There are examples, of course, where that isn't the case. In the context of the name change, for example, costs would be greater on a council such as Cardiff because this place is located in Cardiff, and that would have a greater impact there than it would elsewhere. So, the cost assessments do reflect that to a certain extent. But in terms of the franchise, then what you have described is more applicable in those terms. 

Do you want to—?

I think it's perhaps also worth just outlining that some of the costs are based on an all-Wales figure for local authorities. So, it's not necessarily that we've multiplied a cost up by 22, but in some instances we've developed a figure—often working with Welsh Government and other partners to develop an all-Wales figure. So, we can give you an average cost per local authority, but it's fair to say that that average cost per local authority is where there's potentially some variation. 

Ocê. Fe wnaethoch chi gyfeirio at newid yr enw gynnau, wrth gwrs. Rŷch chi wedi penodi dyddiad arfaethedig ar gyfer newid yr enw, sef 6 Mai 2020. Mae'r asesiad effaith yn rhagdybio y byddai'r bwrdd taliadau yn dweud wrth Aelodau am beidio ag arddel hynny, i bob pwrpas, tan 2021. Ydyn nhw wedi rhoi arweiniad i chi mai dyna fyddai eu bwriad nhw neu ydy hynny jest yn rhagdybiaeth gennych chi? 

You referred to the name change earlier. You have set a legal date for the name change of 6 May 2020. The impact assessment makes assumptions that the remuneration board would direct Members not to do that until 2021. Have they given you a steer that that would be their intention, or is it your assumption? 

Rhagdybiaeth gennym ni yw e o ran datblygu'r costau ar gyfer y Mesur yma, ac felly mater i'w benderfynu gan y bwrdd taliadau fydd hynny. Felly, fe fyddan nhw'n penderfynu maes o law, os bydd y ddeddfwriaeth yma'n dod i rym, beth fydd yn rhesymol o'u safbwynt nhw o ran gwariant gan Aelodau. Felly, rŷm ni wedi rhagdybio taw o bosib fel hyn gellid bod yn gweithredu ar hyn, o bosib taw hyn sy'n rhesymol i feddwl gan taw dim ond blwyddyn fyddai ar ôl o dymor unrhyw Aelod. Ond yn y pen draw, mae'n fater i'r bwrdd taliadau. Os ydw i'n cofio'n iawn, rhyw £30,000 neu rywbeth o wariant fyddai hynny yn sgil hyn.  

It is our assumption in drawing up the costs for this Bill, and therefore it's a matter for decision by the remuneration board. They will make that decision in due time, if this legislation comes into force, on what would be reasonable, from their perspective, in terms of expenditure by Members. Therefore, we have made an assumption that this is a reasonable approach and could be reasonably assumed there would only be one year left of the term for any Member. But ultimately, it is a matter for the remuneration board. If memory serves me rightly, the expenditure would be some £30,000. 

Oni fyddai'n daclusach i gael un dyddiad sy'n cyfateb i'r etholiad nesaf? Hynny yw, mae arwyddocad newid enw, rwy'n siŵr, yn un dwi'n teimlo y byddai nifer o Aelodau'n awyddus i adlewyrchu mewn arwyddion, ac yn y blaen, yn hytrach nag aros tan ar ôl 2021.

Wouldn't it be tidier to have one date that corresponds to the next election? Because the significance of the name change is one that I feel many Members would be eager to reflect in signage and so forth, rather than wait until 2021.

Wel, bydd e'n ddiddorol i wybod beth yw barn y y pwyllgor yma ac unrhyw bwyllgor arall ar hyn. Mae'n fy nharo i, o ran bod yn ddarbodus ar arian cyhoeddus, fod yna elfen efallai o wastraff arian cyhoeddus os byddai rhywun naill ai ddim yn sefyll ar gyfer etholiad 2021 ond yn dymuno newid yr arwydd am flwyddyn yn unig, neu ychwaith rywun sy'n colli etholiad yn 2021, ac mae'r arwydd yna'n gorfod newid ar y pwynt yna beth bynnag. Felly, fy marn i oedd i ddilyn y trywydd mwy darbodus yn hyn o beth, ond efallai bydd y bwrdd taliadau ac efallai eich pwyllgor chi hefyd yn cymryd barn wahanol. 

Well, it would be interesting to know what the views of this committee and any other committees are on this. It strikes me, in terms of being prudent with public funds, that there is an element of waste if someone either weren't to stand for the 2021 election but wished to change their sign for a year only, or someone who loses an election in 2021, and that sign would have to change at that point in any case. So, my view was that we should take that more prudent approach in that regard, but perhaps the remuneration board and your committee will take a different view. 

Mae yna bryderon wedi cael eu mynegi, wrth gwrs, ynglŷn â'r holl broses o newid enw ac yn y blaen fel rhan—

There have been concerns expressed about this whole process of changing the name as part—

Oh, go on then, Mike. 

10:20

On the change of name, we changed our e-mail addresses, didn't we, a couple of years ago, and we actually had to change everything at that stage, because everything we put out had our e-mail addresses. Do you know how much that cost?

I don't have that figure to hand.

That's an interesting question, isn't it? So, on 6 May next year—

Ar 6 Mai y flwyddyn nesaf—. Ar hyn o bryd, dwi'n defnyddio alun.davies@assembly.wales neu @cynulliad.cymru, beth bynnag. Oes gyda'r Comisiwn—? Ydych chi'n berchen ar domain arall—so, parliament.wales neu senedd.cymru? Mae gyda chi hynny yn ei le, ie?

On 6 May next year—. At present, I use alun.davies@assembly.wales or @cynulliad.cymru. Does the Commission—?  Do you own another domain—so, parliament.wales or senedd.cymru? You have that in place, do you?

Ydyn, mae'r holl domains yna ar gael i ni i'w defnyddio, yn dibynnu ar beth yw'r penderfyniad ar yr enw—

Yes, all of those domains are available for our use, depending on the decision on the name—

Mae nhw ar gael. Os ydw i'n cofio'n iawn, mae'r cyfan o'r domains potensial yma wedi cael eu prynu—dwi'n meddwl gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Neu ni?

It is available. If memory serves me correctly, all of these potential domains have been obtained—I think by the UK Government. Or is it by ourselves?

Cawson nhw eu trosglwyddo o Senedd San Steffan i ni. Felly, bu Claire Clancy mewn cysylltiad â'r Clerc i ofyn am drosglwyddo nhw pan oedden ni'n gwybod bod yna botensial i newid yr enw fan hyn, i sicrhau ein bod ni'n medru cael y domains yna. 

They were transferred from the Westminster Parliament. So, Claire Clancy was in touch with the Clerk to ask for their transfer when we knew that there was potential to change the name here, to ensure that we could have those domains. 

Ac, wrth gwrs, mae'n bosibl defnyddio dau gyfeiriad sy'n mynd i'r un lle. So, mae'n bosibl defnyddio'r enw 'Cynulliad' a'r enw 'Senedd' ar yr un pryd.

And, of course, it's possible to use two e-mail addresses that would be directed to the same place. So, you could use the names 'Assembly' and 'Senedd' simultaneously.

Fel ddigwyddodd yn y newid diwethaf—roedd y ddau yn fyw am gyfnod. Ond mae yna gwestiwn ynglŷn â sut dŷch chi'n ymateb yn fwy cyffredinol i sylwadau ynglŷn â'r holl gostau sy'n deillio o newid enw ar gyfnod o gyni fel hyn.

As happened with the previous change—both were live for a period of time. But there is a question as to how you respond more generally to comments on the whole costs emanating from the name change in a period of austerity such as this one.

Ie. Dwi'n deall, wrth gwrs, ac yn sensitif i'r mater yna, fel mae pob un ohonon ni. Byddwn i'n dweud, yn gyntaf, ein bod ni wedi ceisio gwneud hyn yn y ffordd mwyaf darbodus posib drwy edrych ar fod mor effeithiol â phosib ynglŷn â chyn lleied o gost byddai hyn yn ei olygu drwy wneud rhai materion fel newid enw, ddim newid logo a newid yr holl faterion sy'n mynd o gwmpas rhyw rebrand llawn—felly, elfen weddol o ofalus ar sut rŷn ni yn gwario ar hyn oll. Ond, yn fwy cyffredinol, wrth gwrs, beth rŷn ni'n edrych i gyflawni drwy hyn yw bod pobl Cymru yn dod yn fwy cyfarwydd â'r gwahaniaeth rhwng beth sy'n Senedd a beth sy'n Lywodraeth, ac ein bod ni nawr yn galw ein hunain yr hyn yr ydyn ni ac yn gwneud hynny'n glir i bobl Cymru fel bod dealltwriaeth pobl Cymru o'r hyn sy'n cael ei gyflawni yn y lle yma ar eu rhan nhw yn well. Gobeithio fydd hwn yn para am ganrif a mwy i ddod, a dyw e ddim yn rhywbeth bydd Cynulliadau yn y pump, 10, 15 mlynedd nesaf yn gorfod edrych arno eto.

Yes. I understand, of course, and am sensitive to that issue, as we all are. I would say, first, that we've tried to do this in the most prudent way possible by looking to be as effective as possible in terms of reducing costs by doing things such as changing the name, not changing the logo and changing all the things relating to a full rebrand—so, quite a cautious element in terms of that spending. But what we're trying to achieve through this more generally is that the people of Wales become more familiar with the difference between what's Parliament and what's Government, and that we now call ourselves what we are and make that clear to the people of Wales and make sure that they better understand what is being delivered on their behalf in this place. We hope that this change will last for a century and more, and is not something that Assemblies in five, 10 or 15 years' time will need to look at again.

Amen. [Chwerthin.] Ond y gwir yw, beth bynnag dŷch chi'n ei wneud fel Comisiwn i godi ymwybyddiaeth ac i redeg rhyw raglen o addysg gyhoeddus, bydd y rhan fwyaf o bobl yn clywed amboutu'r lle yma drwy ffynonellau gwahanol—trwy sgwrsio, trwy newyddion, trwy drafod beth sy'n digwydd yma—ac nid yn trafod enw'r lle. Ydych chi hefyd yn trafod, ac wedi cael trafodaethau, gyda'r sefydliadau darlledu, er enghraifft? Dwi'n clywed pobl yn y BBC—y rhan fwyaf o Lundain, nid o Gaerdydd—sydd yn amlwg ddim yn deall strwythur llywodraethol yng Nghymru ar ôl 20 mlynedd o ddatganoli, ac mae'n bwysig, buaswn i'n meddwl, ein bod ni ddim jest yn craffu ar beth sy'n digwydd fan hyn, y costau o wneud hyn—. A dwi ddim yn credu bod yna gostau parhaol i hyn, fel mae'n digwydd. Dwi'n gwybod eich bod chi wedi amcangyfrif £1,600 neu rhywbeth—dwi ddim yn deall hynny; mae'r lle yma yn mynd i fod ag enw, beth bynnag yw e. Ond y gwir yw: y peth pwysig gall y Cynulliad, neu'r Comisiwn, ei wneud yw cynnal trafodaethau gyda'r bobl sy'n adrodd ar ein gwaith.

Amen. [Laughter.] But the fact of the matter is, whatever you do as a Commission to raise awareness and to run a public education campaign, the majority of people hear about this place through different sources—through conversations, through news, through discussing what actually happens here—rather than looking at the name. Have you also had discussions with the broadcasters, for example? I hear people on the BBC—for the most part from London, not from Cardiff—who clearly don't understand the governance structure here in Wales after 20 years of devolution, and I would have thought that it was important that we not only scrutinise what's happening here and the costs of this—. And I don't think there are ongoing costs to this, as it happens. I know that you have estimated £1,600 or something—I don't understand that; this place will have a name, whatever that name is. But the truth is: the most important thing that the Commission can do is to have discussions with those people who report on our work.

Ie, a dwi'n cytuno. Mae hwnna'n elfen arall o'r gwaith rydym ni fel Comisiwn, a fi fel Llywydd, wedi cychwyn arno. Ac, wrth gwrs, fe oedd yr adolygiad ar gyfathrebu a chyfathrebu digidol, a wnaeth gael ei arwain gan Leighton Andrews ar y pryd, wedi rhoi nifer o argymhellion i ni ar sut rŷn ni yn gwella ein cysylltiad uniongyrchol gyda phobl yng Nghymru drwy gyfryngau cymdeithasol, ond hefyd, sut rŷn ni’n edrych ar wella’r drafodaeth a’r ddealltwriaeth o’n gwaith ni yma gyda’r cyfryngau mwy traddodiadol yng Nghymru—y rhai sydd yng Nghymru—a’r rhai, fel rŷch chi’n ei ddweud, sydd yn Llundain.

Yn sicr, dwi a’r tîm cyfathrebu wedi bod yn cynnal cyfarfodydd gyda’r BBC ac ITV i fod yn edrych ar sut allwn ni wella ein dealltwriaeth ni a’n cyfathrebu ni o’r amrywiaeth o faterion sydd yn digwydd fan hyn, ac, wrth gwrs, gwaith y pwyllgorau’n enwedig, byddwn i’n ei ddweud, sydd yn aml iawn yn cael ei anghofio, rhyw ffordd, yn y drafodaeth gyhoeddus. Ac yn y gwaith yna, rŷn ni’n gweld stwff diddorol iawn yn digwydd y byddai pobl Cymru â diddordeb ynddo, ond dŷn nhw jest ddim yn ei glywed e. Felly, dwi’n gobeithio eich bod chi wedi sylwi bod rhywfaint mwy o sylw yn cael ei wneud nawr gan gyfryngau ar adroddiadau pwyllgor a thystiolaeth ddiddorol i bwyllgor ar wahanol agweddau; felly, mae hwnna’n elfen bwysig o’r gwaith. Dwi’n gobeithio hefyd, mewn cyfraniad bach, bod y ffaith ein bod ni’n defnyddio ieithwedd, drwy ailenwi’n hunain yn enw sydd yn fwy cyfarwydd i bobl—pobl arbenigol fel y rhai sy’n gweithio yn y cyfryngau, ond hefyd pobl Cymru’n gyffredinol, sef Senedd a Llywodraeth—dyna’r hyn y mae pobl yn gyfarwydd ag e, a dyna fel y dylem ni fod yn cyflwyno ein gwaith. Dyna beth rŷn ni’n ei wneud, erbyn hyn; gwaith senedd.

Yes, and I agree. That's another element of the work that we as a Commission, and I as Llywydd, have started on. And, of course, the review of digital communications that was led by Leighton Andrews at the time gave us a number of recommendations about how we improve our direct links with the people of Wales through social media and so forth, but also how we improve the discussion and understanding of our work here with the more traditional media in Wales—those in Wales—and those, as you say, who are based in London.

But certainly, I and the communications team, we've been holding meetings with the BBC and ITV to look at how we can improve our understanding and our communication of the range of issues that take place here, and, of course, the committee work in particular, which is often forgotten somehow in the public debate. And in that work, we see very interesting things happening that the people of Wales would be interested in, but they just don't hear about it. So, I hope that you've noticed that there is more coverage in the media of committee work and the evidence given to committees; so, that's a very important element of the work. I hope that the fact that we are using language by renaming ourselves to a name that's more familiar to people—for experts, who work in the media, but also for the people of Wales generally, namely Parliament and the Government—that's what people are familiar with, and that's how we should be presenting our work. That's what we're doing now; the work of a parliament.

10:25

A dwi’n cytuno gyda chi. Ond dwi jest eisiau mynd yn ôl at hynny. Ac rŷch chi’n gwneud hynny gyda sefydliadau yn Llundain hefyd. Mae mwy o bobl yn darllen y Daily Mail na’r Western Mail. Mae mwy o bobl yn gwrando ar Radio 2 na sy’n gwrando ar Radio Cymru neu Radio Wales. Felly, mae’n bwysig, yn fy marn i, bod y Comisiwn yn edrych ar ble mae pobl Cymru’n actually derbyn eu newyddion.

And I do agree with you, but I want to return to that. You're doing that along with the London-based organisations. Because there are more people reading the Daily Mail than the Western Mail. There are more people listening to Radio 2 than listen to Radio Cymru or Radio Wales. So, it is important, my view, at least, that the Commission does look at where the people of Wales actually receive their news.

Dwi’n cytuno gyda chi. Rŷn ni wrthi’n gweithio ar raglen o waith sydd yn cynyddu ac yn gwella ein helfennau cyfathrebu ni. Rŷn ni wedi cychwyn dipyn ar hynny gyda’r cyfryngau o fewn Cymru. Mae’n fater ychwanegol, gyda mwy o adnoddau, fe fyddem ni’n gallu gwneud mwy, wrth gwrs, ond mae’r pwyntiau rŷch chi’n eu gwneud yn iawn ac maen nhw'n rhywbeth i fi drafod ymhellach gyda’r swyddogion sydd yn gyfrifol am gyfathrebu.

I agree with you. We are now working on a programme of work that is increasing and improving our communication work. We've started on that with the media within Wales. It is an additional issue, with more resources, we could do more with that, but, of course, the points that you make are right and it's something for me to have further discussions on with the officials who are responsible for communication.

Can I return to the lowering of the franchise age to 16? Now, I would say that—why can't we use a national insurance number for people? Because every 16-year-old, or nearly every 16-year-old, will register for a national insurance number at that age, and that would mean that if we could get automatic registration of them at that age, then there wouldn't need to be any additional cost of canvassing. All you'd be doing is putting them on the register, or whatever you pay the Department for Work and Pensions for the data.

The intention, with this legislation, and what we are doing with this legislation, is, as a Commission and as this Member in charge, is to extend the franchise to 16, 17. The issues as to how that's then done and whether there are any changes to that—the registration process—I've taken the view that that's a matter for Welsh Government not for us to undertake in this piece of legislation. I think I'm correct in saying that when, in Scotland, they introduced this, they didn't do it via the automatic registration, via DUP—DUP? I've been listening too much to something recently—DWP on national insurance. But I'm sure that this is a matter, and I think it is one of the matters, that the local government consultation on electoral reform did look at. I don't know whether there's anything else that anybody would want to add on that.

Well, only to say that we are conscious that it's something that, for example, the Electoral Comission have recommended in the past to be explored. But as the Llywydd says, given that the Welsh Government are looking at a range of different innovations to do with the registration process, then we think it's best led by Welsh Government. It's worth saying that there are—when we've engaged with returning officers, through the Wales electoral co-ordination board, for example, they have expressed some concerns about the cumulative effect of having a number of different changes happening at one election, for example. So, for the 2021 election, potentially looking at lowering the franchise, but also there are plans for canvass reform as well, led by UK Government and Welsh Government jointly for the 2021 elections. So, there are a number of different reforms. I think it's right that the Welsh Government look at the cumulative impact of those reforms and how they're best managed with local authority partners.

10:30

Two questions from that. One is that, if it was done free or virtually free from using DWP information, that would change the cost quite considerably for a change in the franchise. The second thing is that I'm bemused by what you've just said about the view of electoral officers, because they're continually getting updates. In Swansea East, I expect to have 500 to 600 coming on or off the register every two months or so when I get the information sent to me. They're having all these changes all the time, so putting 16 or 17-year-olds on would, I suggest, add very little to that, and they do that fairly automatically.

Well, I think that introducing an electoral system that includes 16 and 17-year-olds and then 14 and 15-year-olds leading up to the registration—the local authority see that as quite a significant change for them because it's a sector of the population that they haven't had to approach or deal with previously. So, they see this as quite a significant change. I think that, on the whole, they would want to do it in a way where they can focus on this particular area of work and do it effectively. So, I don't want to downplay how significant a change this is for local authorities and the electoral returning officers in how they do their work.

I can see a danger of drifting into policy outside cost, but, solely about the costs, should we not be asking local authorities if they can find a cheaper way of doing it?

Well, there is quite a significant piece of work that's being undertaken at the moment on canvass reform, and there's likely to be change that all local authorities across the UK are looking to do on canvass reform for next year's 2020 canvass. That may well, from what I understand, lead to significant cost changes, reduction of costs in how that canvass reform is undertaken. I'm not sure how much detail we have on what that is likely to look like at the moment, but it's certainly something that local authorities expect will significantly reduce the costs of the annual canvass for them from next year on.

Also, I take it that 14 to 16-year-olds will go on the private register and not the public register, but that should generate no extra cost.

Well, if you look at how the legislation has worked, we've put some considerable effort into working with local authorities, the Electoral Commission and others on how safeguarding issues for pre-16 children are protected in the electoral system. And this is an area of work that the electoral system hasn't had to look at previously in the same way because of the particular issues around 14 and 15-year-old young people on the electoral register. So, it's not as straightforward, I think, as you've just highlighted. We have looked at special considerations on safeguarding for younger people at 14 and 15, and that has had an implication on how the Bill has been drafted, certainly. Anything on costs on that?

Only that returning officers will need to engage with a new segment of the population, of course, and so that will give rise to some additional costs, but they're not significant.

This isn't rocket science, is it? This is quite a straightforward change. We are looking at including people who aren't currently on the register on the register. Now, there is an electoral management board for Wales, I think it's called. The Electoral Commission have done a great job in helping to create that, and there's a great deal of expertise around that particular table for which we pay a considerable sum of money already, because we're constantly being told by local authority chief executives that they need these additional payments in order to do the job. Well, I'm inclined to ask them to do it—to get on and do it—and to do it in the most cost-effective and straightforward way. It appears to me that our role here, and I presume, your role as a Commission, is to set the policy objective, which is to include a proportion of the population on the electoral register—it isn't on the electoral register as it is—and, if the electoral management board for Wales doesn't have the expertise around that table, then perhaps we should buy it in from somewhere else and stop paying the returning officers who are currently claiming these additional sums of money and get people who can do it. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it appears to me that we're spending a great deal of time having a debate around a policy objective that really should be delivered by the officers who already have the expertise to do it. 

10:35

That's fine. The Bill and the RIA do outline the costs, as anticipated, to local government of increasing the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds. The cost estimates are in the RIA on that. There will be a discussion between Welsh Government and local government as part of the local government settlement on how and if—or how—the local government settlement reflects the additional costs that local government see arising from introducing the 16 and 17-year-olds. That's how we've approached this, with Welsh Government and local authorities.

But, surely, sorry, the management board—I can't remember its precise title—which does include all the expertise I can see on electoral management in Wales, is a board of, I would have anticipated, some expertise. Now, if that cannot find a way of doing this in a cost-effective and efficient way, that reflects very poorly on local government and chief officers and returning officers, I would suggest. So, I would suggest that our role here should be to actually have that conversation with them, if they are really making the case that this is a very, very difficult task to undertake. Perhaps we should employ more Scottish chief executives, who seem to do it in a very efficient way.

I didn't want to—. I don't think I have given the impression that local authorities consider this to be a huge undertaking, but they do and they have worked with us constructively on the policy development and the costings behind this, but they have outlined to us actual costs of what they think will be necessary and they're in the RIA, and the most significant, if I recall, is the actual update of the software that's required. And those are costs that local government would have to meet and those are costs that they will be discussing with Welsh Government as part of the local government settlement.

We are going to Scotland in a couple of months, Chair, so I would suggest that we actually put some time in our agenda there to have this conversation with those people who made these changes in Scotland some years ago.

Well, we will be discussing our forward work programme later on, so we can pick up on that. Rhun—oh, sorry, Anna.

It's the Wales electoral co-ordination board, which the Electoral Commission supports and which has all the returning officers on it. We're working very constructively with them and they're very positive about these changes and they're ready to implement the changes and work with Welsh Government and ourselves on those. So, I wouldn't want you to be left with the impression that they were—[Inaudible.]

But, as the Llywydd said, they've been very positive about this.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr. Diolch. Rhun.

Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Rhun.

Gan ein bod ni wedi bod yn trafod yr Alban, mae nifer o'r amcangyfrifon cost sydd wedi cael eu gwneud yn seiliedig ar brofiad yr Alban a'r costau oedd wedi cael eu cynnwys yn Bil etholiadau'r Alban—y Scottish Elections (Reduction of Voting Age) Bill. Mae'n werth nodi, serch hynny, na chafodd y ffigurau bryd hynny sgriwtini y pwyllgor cyllid yn Senedd yr Alban a bod yna sbel wedi pasio ers hynny. Felly, pa waith sydd wedi'i wneud i sicrhau bod y ffigurau a bod deilliannau Cymreig yn gywir ac yn berthnasol i'n cyd-destun ni ac yn gyfoes?

Given that we've been discussing Scotland, a number of the cost estimates are based on the Scottish experience and the costs included in the Scottish Elections (Reduction of Voting Age) Bill. It's worth noting, however, that those figures at that time didn't have scrutiny from the finance committee in the Scottish Parliament and that a long time has passed since then. So, what work has been done to ensure that those figures and the Welsh implications are accurate and are relevant to our situation?

Wel, wrth gwrs, mae profiad yr Alban, a'r costau yn y Mesur cychwynnol ac yn y blaen, wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol i ni wrth ddatblygu y gwaith dadansoddi o ran beth yw'r costau sy'n deillio o gyflwyno Mesur o'r math yma yng Nghymru hefyd. Fe oedd yna rywfaint o frys, os dwi'n cofio'n iawn, ar gyflwyno'r Mesur yn yr Alban, felly doedd yr elfennau o'r sgriwtini efallai ddim i gyd wedi cael eu gwneud yn yr un ffordd a dŷn ni'n ei wneud fan hyn ar y Mesur yma. Ac, wrth gwrs, o beth dwi'n deall, dwi ddim yn ymwybodol bod yna unrhyw waith post-legislative wedi digwydd yn yr Alban ar y gwaith yna, ond gwnaf i ofyn i rywun fan hyn roi mwy o wybodaeth ynglŷn â sut dŷn ni wedi defnyddio'r ffigurau o'r Alban.

Well, of course, the Scottish experience, and the costs in the original Bill and so on, have been useful for us as we have developed our analysis of the costs emerging from the introduction of this kind of Bill in Wales too. The Bill in Scotland was introduced in something of a hurry, so the elements of scrutiny weren't perhaps carried out in the same way as we're doing here on this particular Bill. And, of course, from what I understand, I'm not aware that any post-legislative scrutiny happened in Scotland either on that particular Bill, but I will ask someone here just to provide a little more information as to how we have used the Scottish figures. 

10:40

So, the lowering of the minimum voting age in Scotland clearly represents the recent example of doing so within a UK context, so it was natural that we'd turn to that example for cost estimates. They've, of course, been updated for Wales—uprated and, where possible, verified with stakeholders. It's perhaps also useful to say that some of the Scottish cost estimates used were based on actual quotes received from suppliers in Scotland, so I'm thinking here of things like the electoral management system. Although such costs weren't, therefore, scrutinised at the time, they were robustly calculated.

Felly, dŷn ni'n sgriwtineiddio'r ffigurau o'r Alban yma yng Nghymru. Ar y cwestiwn o godi ymwybyddiaeth ac unrhyw wersi dŷch chi wedi ceisio eu dysgu o'r Alban, mi oedd y cyd-destun yn wahanol iawn yn yr Alban. Mi oedd yna lefel uchel iawn, iawn, iawn—. Mi fydd rhai ohonom ni fuodd yn yr Alban ar y pryd yn cofio hynny—mi oedd yna lefel uchel iawn o ymwybyddiaeth beth bynnag ymhlith y boblogaeth, yn cynnwys y rhai ifanc oedd yn cael eu gwahodd i bleidleisio am y tro cyntaf. Ydych chi'n hyderus ein bod ni wedi cymryd hynny i ystyriaeth? Bydd yna lefel uwch o waith gan y Comisiwn a gan eraill—y Llywodraeth, er enghraifft—i wneud gwaith rhagweithiol i godi ymwybyddiaeth, yn hytrach na gallu dibynnu ar y don oedd yn digwydd ymhlith y boblogaeth yn naturiol, rhywsut, yn yr Alban.

So, we're scrutinising figures from Scotland here in Wales. In terms of awareness raising and any lessons that you've tried to learn from Scotland, the context was very different in Scotland. There was a very high level—. Some of us who were in Scotland at the time will remember this—there was a very high level of awareness anyway among the population there, including the young people who were being invited to vote for the first time. Are you confident that we have taken that into consideration? There will be a higher level of work to be done by the Commission and others, such as the Government, to do proactive work in terms of awareness raising, rather than just being able to rely on what happened naturally in Scotland.

Wel, ie, dwi'n deall y pwynt dŷch chi'n ei wneud. Yn amlwg, fe oedd yna ymwybyddiaeth uchel iawn o'r cyfle i bleidleisio am y tro cyntaf. Dwi'n meddwl o'r drafodaeth sydd wedi bod yn deillio allan o argymhelliad panel Laura McAllister, lle wnaeth y panel yna sôn bod cyflwyno'r newid yn yr etholfraint mewn etholiad Cynulliad yn gyntaf yn hytrach na mewn etholiad llywodraeth leol hefyd yn ffordd o sicrhau bod yr etholiad sydd â'r fwyaf o sylw cenedlaethol, a mwy o statws cenedlaethol, o bosib—'higher salience', dwi'n meddwl oedd y term a ddefnyddiwyd yn yr adroddiad hwnnw—yn ffordd o sicrhau bod yr ymwybyddiaeth yna'n uwch nag os byddai hyn yn cael ei gyflwyno gyntaf ar gyfer llywodraeth leol.

O ran y gwaith ar gostio faint o arian dylid ei wario a beth yw'r gwaith o ddatblygu'r ymwybyddiaeth i bobl ifanc o'r ganfas yn gyntaf ac wedyn o'r pleidleisio, yna mae tipyn o waith rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru, y Comisiwn Etholiadol a ni wedi mynd mewn i weithio allan sut gall hyn gychwyn, ond cychwyn rŷn ni'n ei wneud ar y maes yma. Fe fyddwch chi'n ymwybodol o'r £150,000 y mae'r Comisiwn wedi'i roi tuag at y gwaith yma. Fe ydych chi hefyd, o bosibl, yn ymwybodol bod Llywodraeth Cymru nawr wedi dweud y byddan nhw'n clustnodi rhywle rhwng £895,000 a £945,000 dros gyfnod o dair blynedd i'r gwaith o hyrwyddo newidiadau i'r etholfraint, nid dim ond yn 16 ac 17 ar gyfer y Cynulliad ond hefyd ar gyfer llywodraeth leol.

Wrth gwrs, yn ein trafodaethau â Llywodraeth Cymru, maen nhw hefyd wedi cyfeirio'n benodol at sut byddan nhw'n gwario'r arian yna neu'n clustnodi'r arian yna—£80,000 tuag at y gwaith cychwynnol o ymchwilio ar ba fath o ymgyrchoedd cyfathrebu y dylid bod yn ymgymryd â nhw, ac wedyn £215,000 i £265,000 ar yr ymgyrch i gofrestru ac i hyrwyddo pobl ifanc i bleidleisio, ac wedyn y darn mwyaf o'r arian, £600,000 o'r cyfanswm yna, yn mynd tuag at adnoddau ar gyfer ysgolion. Felly, fe fyddwn ni wedyn yn sefydlu ffrwd o waith rhwng y Comisiwn, y Comisiwn Etholiadol a Llywodraeth Cymru ar sut mae'r gwahanol agweddau a'r cyllidebau sydd wedi cael eu gosod gan y gwahanol gyrff yn plethu at ei gilydd ac yn cael eu cynllunio mewn ffordd fel nad oes yna ddim dyblygu, a bod pawb yn ymwybodol o, ac yn cytuno ar, ba elfennau o'r gwaith bydd y gwahanol wariant yn mynd arno o'r cyrff gwahanol.

Well, yes, I understand the point that you make. Clearly, there was a very high level of awareness, in terms of the opportunity to vote for the first time in Scotland. I think, from the discussion emerging from the recommendation made by the Laura McAllister panel, where that particular panel mentioned that introducing the change to the franchise in the Assembly election first, rather than in a local government election, was also a means of ensuring that the election that generates most attention nationally and has a higher status, possibly—I think 'higher salience' was the term used in the expert panel report—was a means of ensuring that the awareness level would be higher than it would be if it was first introduced for local government elections.

In terms of the work on costings, in terms of how much should be spent and what work needs to be done in developing the awareness of young people, first of the canvass and then of the opportunity to vote, there's been a great deal of work between Welsh Government, the Electoral Commission and ourselves that's gone into working out how this can start, but we are only making a start on this. You will be aware of the £150,000 that the Commission has allocated for this work. You may also be aware that the Welsh Government has now said that they will allocate something between £895,000 and £945,000 to the work of promoting changes to the franchise, not just for those at 16 and 17 for the Assembly elections but also for local government elections.

In our discussions with the Welsh Government, they have also referred specifically to how they will spend or allocate that funding—£80,000 towards the initial work of researching the kinds of communication campaigns that should be undertaken, and then £215,000 to £265,000 on the campaign to register and to encourage young people to vote, and then the greatest sum, £600,000, going towards the production of resources for schools. So, we will then establish a work stream between the Commission, the Electoral Commission and the Welsh Government, in terms of how those various aspects and budgets allocated by the different bodies can come together and can be planned in a way that ensures that there's no duplication, that everyone is aware and is agreed on what elements of the work the expenditure will be spent on by the various bodies involved.

10:45

O ran y ddau ffigur gwnaethoch chi sôn amdanyn nhw yn y fanna—y £150,000, y gost a gafodd ei adnabod ar gyfer y Comisiwn—chyhoeddwyd ddim o'r ffigur £895,000 gan y Llywodraeth ar yr un pryd. Mi fydd hynny'n canu larymau i rai pobl—pam na allwyd wedi cynnwys y ffigur hwnnw efo'r ffigurau a gafodd eu cyhoeddi. Ydych chi'n gyfforddus na chafodd y ffigur mawr hwnnw o bron £1 filiwn ei gynnwys ochr yn ochr â ac ynghlwm â'r ffigurau ynglŷn â chodi ymwybyddiaeth gychwynnol?

In terms of the two figures that you mentioned there—the £150,000 in terms of cost that was identified for the Commission—that £895,000 figure from the Government wasn't published at the same time. That will cause alarm bells to ring for some people, as to why that figure wasn't included with the figures that were published initially. Are you comfortable or content that that large figure, nearly £1 million, wasn't published with the awareness raising figures initially?

Wel, dwi'n gyffyrddus yn y ffaith fy mod i wedi cael trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, Gweinidogion, un ohonyn nhw sydd erbyn hyn yn eistedd o gwmpas y bwrdd hwn, yn ystod y misoedd diwethaf—Kirsty Williams, Alun Davies, nawr Julie James, wrth gwrs, sydd wedi cydlofnodi'r llythyr mwyaf diweddar yna—a oedd yn fy arwain i i fod yn gyfforddus bod eu ymrwymiad nhw o ran cefnogi'r polisi yn un cadarn iawn a bod hynny'n mynd i gael adlewyrchiad, hefyd, mewn cyfraniad ariannol. Mater iddyn nhw oedd pryd roedden nhw'n gallu dod â'r ffigurau yna a'u cyflwyno nhw i fi, ac i ni, i'w cyhoeddi nhw maes o law. Dwi'n meddwl gwnaeth y Cwnsler Cyffredinol, hefyd, yn ei dystiolaeth i chi, gyfeirio at agweddau ar y cyllid yma hefyd. Felly, mae e'n gyfraniad sylweddol, ond, wrth gwrs, roedden nhw'n datblygu eu ffigurau nid dim ond ar gyfer yr etholfraint—ychwanegu pobl 16 ac 17 i'r etholfraint ar gyfer y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol—mae'r gyllideb yma, cofiwch, oddi wrth y Llywodraeth, yn gyllideb ar gyfer tair blynedd o waith, sydd yn cynnwys y flwyddyn yna fydd yn arwain lan at etholiadau llywodraeth leol yn 2022.

Well, I'm comfortable in the fact that I have had discussions with the Welsh Government and Welsh Ministers, one of whom is now sitting at this very table, during the past few months—I've had discussions with Kirsty Williams, Alun Davies, now Julie James, who has jointly signed that most recent letter—and that led me to be comfortable that their commitment in terms of supporting the policy was very robust and that that was going to be reflected in a financial contribution. It was a matter for them as to when they were able to bring those figures forward and to present them to me, and to us, for publication. I think the Counsel General, in his evidence, referred to certain aspects of this funding too. Therefore, it's a significant contribution, but of course they were developing their figures not just for the franchise in terms of 16 and 17-year-olds for National Assembly elections—this budget from Government is a budget for three years of work, which will include that year that will lead up to the local government elections in 2022.

Ond maen nhw yn dweud:

But they are saying:

'We would be grateful if you would take the matter of a financial contribution from the Commission under consideration.'

Pa ystyriaeth sydd wedi cael ei rhoi i hynny?

What consideration has been given to that?

Mae'r llythyr gan Julie James a Kirsty Williams:

The letter from Julie James and Kirsty Williams says:

'We estimate the cost of this work'

grybwylloch chi

that you mentioned

'at around £895,000 to £943,000 over three years, commencing 2019-20. We would be grateful if you would take the matter of a financial contribution from the Commission under consideration.'

Ie, wel, maen nhw'n ymwybodol o'r arian rŷn ni'n rhoi at y gwaith yma. Nawr mater o gydlynu a chydblethu'r gwaith fel nad oes yna ddim dyblygu a bod pawb yn cytuno ar ei rhaglen waith a'r gwariant y byddan nhw'n ei wneud. Rŷn ni wrthi yn rhoi rhyw strwythur i sut mae'r gwaith yna'n mynd i gychwyn.

Yes, well, they are aware of our contribution to this work. It's now a matter of co-ordinating and dovetailing the work so there is no duplication and that everyone is agreed on a work programme and the expenditure made. We are currently providing some structure as to how that work will commence.

Roeddwn i jest eisiau dweud: fyddwn ni ddim yn cyfrannu tuag at y costau yna, y £900,000. Fel mae'r Llywydd yn ei ddweud, fe fydd gan y Comisiwn ei arian ei hun fydd yn cael ei dargedu mewn ffordd sy'n gyson â'r amcanion.

I just wanted to say: we won't be contributing to those costs, in terms of the £900,000. As the Presiding Officer says, the Commission has its own funding that will be targeted in a way that's consistent with the objectives.

Mae Mike eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn.

Mike wants to come in on this.

Just a question on the expenditure: isn't there expenditure already being made in education in general in terms of citizenship, and wouldn't some of that already be being spent? And you're going to say I shouldn't be asking this to you, I should be asking it to the Welsh Government, but can I ask it to you or can you ask it to the Welsh Government? [Laughter.]

I think you have a more direct channel, possibly, than I have, to Welsh Government, Mike, but—

I think that the point on that is that that's wider citizenship issues that reflect the wider democratic processes that we have. This is now meant to be quite specific about the electoral process and 16 and 17-year-olds and the mechanics of voting, as well as the responsibilities around voting for 16 and 17-year-olds. 

10:50

We did have a conversation earlier with the chief executive of the Commission about the way in which the National Assembly's outreach works alongside the UK Parliament's work on these matters. It would appear to me that rather than having two parallel programmes working in Wales it would be better to have a single programme that explains the democratic structures that govern Wales, both from the UK and from a Welsh perspective. Is that something you've given any consideration to?

Well, I'd expect that work on citizenship generally and elections generally within schools, and the resources, would, of course, reflect the wider array of—

Yes. The outreach work that we do, I wouldn't know the detail of how we do that. I think it's pretty wide-ranging in terms of the work that we do here primarily, of course, but I wouldn't expect any of that work to be done completely in isolation to the wider democratic processes that we have—UK and EU, for that matter. Whether we have some kind of combined effort on outreach, I haven't given any consideration to. I'm not aware of how much outreach work the UK Parliament or House of Commons does in Wales, actually, to know the extent of that. I've not come across it myself, but there may be something that they do. So, I wouldn't want our work to be overly dominated—if that's the word—by anything else. You were the person to raise the question earlier about making sure that people are aware of what we do here, and that's what our outreach work tends to focus on.

And the context is that, in Wales, the Welsh Parliament and the Welsh Government govern these aspects of our lives, and the UK Parliament and the UK Government does something different. And my experience of living in this country is that there remains a significant level of confusion amongst the population as to who the health Secretary is or who the education Secretary is; decisions that are taken here; decisions they have taken there.

Now, it appears to me that where you have a resource that, in this case, is under your direct control—and I accept what you say about the education system; I don't disagree with you there—but where you have a resource that's under your direct control as a Commission and there is a similar resource under the control of the Speaker of the House of Commons, that it would be better in Wales, and I presume Scotland as well, were those resources brought together to give a holistic view of the governance of our country and our democratic structures and institutions, rather than it being done as it is at the moment, which is entirely separately. 

Well, all I can say is that I'm not fully aware of what resource the UK House of Commons spends currently in Wales and what the nature of that is. So, I can't really reflect a comment back to you on whether it would be better done together than separately. I wouldn't expect any of the outreach work that the National Assembly officials are involved in not to reflect the fact that there are powers that the National Assembly has, and Ministers that it has responsible for those powers, that are different to what the UK Parliament has and an explanation of where different powers lie. One can't be done in isolation to the other.

Ocê. Dwi ddim eisiau mynd ar ôl hwnna ymhellach—dwi'n credu ein bod ni wedi gwyntyllu hwnna. Ond jest i fynd nôl at y ffigurau yma gan y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â chodi ymwybyddiaeth, felly. Fe dderbyniwyd y llythyr ar 30 Ionawr. Gwnaethoch chi osod y Bil ar 12 Chwefror. Dwi'n tybio nad oeddech chi ddim yn teimlo bod yna ddigon o amser i'w cynnwys nhw, felly, yn yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol.  

Okay. I don't want to pursue that any further—I think we've given that enough of an airing. But just to return to these figures from the Government in terms of raising awareness. The letter was received on 30 January. The Bill was tabled on 12 February. I suspect that you thought there wasn't enough time to include them in the RIA.

Rwy'n tybio bod hwnna'n gywir, ond gwnaf ofyn i swyddog. Ond byddwn i'n mynd yn ôl at y pwynt gwnes i ynghynt, wrth gwrs: mae'r ffigurau sydd gyda ni yn y Bil yn cyfeirio at ymestyn yr etholfraint i 16 ac 17 ar gyfer etholiadau 2021; mae'r ffigurau dwi newydd eu cyflwyno, gwaith y Llywodraeth, yn rhaglen fwy cynhwysfawr na hynny o'u gwaith nhw dros gyfnod o dair blynedd. Felly, dyw'r read across ddim yn uniongyrchol. 

That assumption is correct, but I will ask an official. But I would refer to the point that I made earlier, of course, that the figures that we have in the Bill refer to extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds for the 2021 election; the figures for the Government's expenditure are for a more comprehensive programme in terms of their work over a period of three years. So, the read across isn't direct in that regard. 

But maybe Anna—

It's perhaps also just work reflecting that the figures include activity to raise awareness amongst non-EU and non-Commonwealth citizens, reflecting the Welsh Government's intention to also be extending the franchise to foreign nationals for local government elections, which represents a larger part of the electorate—non-EU and non-Commonwealth citizens.

10:55

Felly, jest i fod yn glir, petai yna asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol diwygiedig yn cael ei gyflwyno, a fyddech chi'n edrych i gynnwys unrhyw elfennau perthnasol sy'n deillio o ffigurau y Llywodraeth yn hwnnw, efallai?

So, just to be clear, if an amended RIA were to be tabled, would you be looking to include any relevant elements stemming from the Government's figures on that?

Byddai'n rhaid inni edrych ar sut dŷn ni'n edrych ar ba ganran o'r gost yna y buasem ni'n medru dweud sy'n berthnasol i waith y Bil yma. Felly, buasem ni eto'n ddibynnol ar y Llywodraeth i roi'r asesiad yna i ni.

We would have to look at what percentage of that spend we could say was relevant to the work of this Bill. So, again, we would be reliant on Government to to provide that assessment to us.

Ond, yn sicr, gallwn ni drafod hynny ymhellach gyda nhw. Mae wedi bod yn anodd cael y ffigurau sydd yn dod â chanrannau i mewn.

But, certainly, we can discuss that further with them. It has been difficult to get accurate figures in that regard that include percentages.

Ocê. Diolch am hynny. Dŷn ni wedi gwyntyllu tipyn ar gostau cofrestru pobl 16 oed, felly fe awn ni ymlaen efallai, Rhun, i oruchwylio'r Comisiwn Etholiadol.

Okay. Thank you very much. We've discussed the costs of registering 16-year-olds at length, so we'll go on perhaps, Rhun, to oversight of the Electoral Commission.

Mae'r pwyllgor yma wedi bod yn feirniadol o Lywodraeth yn y gorffennol am wneud newidiadau yng Nghyfnod 2 sydd â goblygiadau ariannol, weithiau sylweddol, iddyn nhw. A wnewch chi egluro'r newidiadau neu'r gwelliannau dŷch chi, ar y pwynt yma, yn bwriadu eu cyflwyno yng Nghyfnod 2 o ran trefniadau goruchwylio y Comisiwn Etholiadol?

This committee has been critical of the Government in the past for making changes at Stage 2 that have financial implications—implications that are sometimes significant. Could you explain the changes or amendments that you, at this point, intend to introduce at Stage 2 in terms of the oversight arrangements of the Electoral Commission?

I fynd nôl i Ddeddf Cymru 2017, dyna le deilliodd y pwerau am y tro cyntaf i ni, fel Cynulliad, fod â'r hawl i ddeddfu ar faterion ariannol a throsolwg o'r Comisiwn Etholiadol. Yn dilyn hynny, fe fuodd yna gychwyn ar drafodaeth rhyngof i, rhwng y Comisiwn Etholiadol ac yna Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd ar wireddu hyn o fewn y Mesurau arfaethedig. Ac mae dau Fesur, wrth gwrs: mae un y Llywodraeth ar lywodraeth leol ac un y Comisiwn ar etholiadau'r Cynulliad.

Fe ddaethpwyd i'r casgliad—ac yr oedd hi braidd yn hwyr yn y dydd i gyrraedd y Mesur yma mewn ffordd lawn ar gyfer cyflwyno'r Mesur—taw drwy'r Mesur yma y gellid ystyried cyflwyno gwelliannau yn ystod Cyfnod 2. Wrth gyflwyno'r Mesur a chyn cyflwyno'r Mesur, fe wnes i'r bwriad yna'n glir: ein bod ni'n ystyried hyn a'n bod ni'n gobeithio y byddai pwyllgorau, wrth gymryd tystiolaeth yn ystod Cyfnod 1, yn trafod y materion yma, ac mae gan y Comisiwn Etholiadol, yn amlwg, gyfraniad i'w wneud yn hynny o beth. Felly, dwi'n derbyn, yn ddelfrydol, y byddwn i'n dweud y dylai hyn fod yn rhan o Fil sydd yn llawn o'r cychwyn, ond, wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni amserlen ac mae gennym ni etholiadau, ac os ydyn ni eisiau cyflwyno newid yn yr etholfraint, fe oedd yna amserlen benodol i'w chwrdd â hi.

Gallem ni fod wedi ystyried Mesur ar wahân ar gyfer hynny—gwnaethon ni feddwl am hynny—ond, wrth gwrs, roeddem ni'n teimlo bod Mesur cyfan gwbl ar wahân dim ond ar gyfer cyflwyno'r trefniadau yma o bosib ddim y ffordd fwyaf priodol pan fod gennym ni'r cyfle i ddeddfu drwy'r Mesur yma.

To return to the Wales Act 2017, this is where the powers were provided to us for the first time, as an Assembly, to legislate on financial issues and issues related to the oversight of the Electoral Commission. Following that, there was a debate commenced between myself, the Electoral Commission and then the Welsh Government too on delivering this within the proposed Bills. And there are two Bills, of course: the Government's Bill on local government and the Commission's Bill on Assembly elections.

We reached the conclusion—and it was quite late in the day to be included in this Bill in a meaningful way in terms of its introduction—that it was through this Bill that we could consider introducing amendments at Stage 2. In introducing the Bill and before introducing the Bill, I made that intention clear: that we were considering this and that we hoped that committees, in taking evidence at Stage 1, would be discussing these issues, and the Electoral Commission, clearly, has a contribution to make in that regard. So, I accept that, ideally, we would say that this should have been included in a comprehensive Bill from the very outset, but of course, we are working to a timetable and we have elections on the horizon, and if we do want to introduce the change to the franchise, then we have to work to a very specific timetable to do that.

We could have considered a separate Bill for that—we did consider that—but, of course, we did feel that an entirely separate Bill just to introduce these arrangements would possibly not be the most appropriate way when we had an opportunity to legislate through this Bill.

Gan nad ydyn ni mewn sefyllfa ddelfrydol lle roedd popeth yno, beth fyddwch chi'n ei wneud i sicrhau bod yna ddigon o gyfle i sicrhau tryloywder ac i graffu ar yr amcangyfrifon newydd a ddaw?

And given that we're not in an ideal situation with everything in place, what will you do to ensure that there's enough opportunity to ensure transparency and to scrutinise the new estimates that come before us?

Fe fydd yna farn gan y pwyllgor yma a'r Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol hefyd ar rai o'r materion yma ynglŷn â sut y dylid cyflwyno'r union ddeddfwriaeth a'r gwelliannau, a Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd, wrth gwrs. Ond, wrth gwrs, o gyflwyno gwelliannau yn ystod Cyfnod 2, os byddwn ni'n gwneud hynny, fe fydd yn rhaid i'r asesiad ariannol gael ei gyflwyno'n llawn wrth ochr hynny.

This committee will take a view, as will the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, on some of these issues as to how the legislation and the amendments should be introduced, and the Welsh Government will also take a view on that, of course. But, in bringing forward amendments at Stage 2, if we were to do that, then the financial assessment will also have to be introduced in full along with that.

Gaf i jest ofyn, te, ynglŷn ag ariannu'r Comisiwn Eholiadol? A fydd e'n cael ei ariannu drwy gyllideb Comisiwn y Cynulliad, neu fel tâl uniongyrchol o gronfa gyfunol Cymru, y consolidated fund?

Could I just ask, then, in terms of funding the Electoral Commission? Will it be funded through the Assembly Commission budget, or as a direct payment through the Welsh consolidated fund?

11:00

Wel, rŷn ni wrthi'n gwneud rhywfaint o waith ar sut gallai'r gwaith yma gael ei gyflwyno, y cyfrifoldebau yma gael eu cyflwyno, a'r ariannu a fydd yn dod i'r Comisiwn o'r consolidated fund. Dyw ariannu uniongyrchol o'r Comisiwn Etholiadol o'r consolidated fund ddim yn bosib—dwi'n meddwl fy mod i'n gywir i ddweud hynny. Felly, sut ŷn ni'n rhagweld y bydd hyn yn digwydd? I fi gael ofyn cwestiwn ohonot ti. [Chwerthin.]

Well, we're currently doing some work on how this work, how these responsibilities can be brought forward, and the funding that will be provided to the Commission from the consolidated fund. I think direct funding of the Electoral Commission from the consolidated fund is not possible—I think I'm right in saying that. So how do we anticipate that this will happen? I'll ask that question. [Laughter.]

Diolch am ofyn cwestiwn. [Chwerthin.]

Thank you for asking a question. [Laughter.]

Does gennym ni ddim y gallu i ddeddfu i ganiatáu iddyn nhw dderbyn arian yn uniongyrchol o'r gronfa gyfunol. Felly, bydd yr arian yn gorfod dod drwy gyllid y Comisiwn, ac felly yn rhan o hynny. Ond, y trefniadau ar gyfer sut bydd y cyllid yna yn cael ei gytuno o fewn y Cynulliad, mae hwnnw'n fater arall sy'n dal yn cael ei drafod, ac, yn wir, fel mae'r Llywydd yn ei ddweud, byddai o ddiddordeb gen i wybod beth fyddai eich argymhellion chi ar hynny.

We don't have the ability to legislate for them to receive money directly from the consolidated fund. So, the money will have to come through Commission funding, as part of that. So, the arrangements for how that funding will be agreed within the Assembly, that's another issue that's being discussed now, and, as the Llywydd says, I would like to know what your recommendations are on that.

Felly, os dyw e ddim yn dod yn uniongyrchol o'r gronfa gyfunol, dŷch chi ddim yn rhagweld angen i ymwneud â'r archwilydd cyffredinol, er enghraifft, fel byddai angen ichi wneud petai yn dod yn uniongyrchol o'r gronfa honno.

So, if it doesn't come directly from the consolidated fund, you don't anticipate the need for the involvement of the auditor general, for example, as you would need if it were to come directly from that fund.

Na, fyddem ni ddim, ond wedi dweud hynny, mi ydym ni yn trafod y mater gyda'r swyddfa archwilio ar y foment, er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr y bydd y trefniadau archwilio ar gyfer y Comisiwn Etholiadol yn dal i weithio ar lefel Brydeinig gydag un cynllun corfforaethol ac un cyllid ar gyfer y Deyrnas Unedig i gyd. Felly, rŷm ni wrthi yn cael trafodaethau gyda'r swyddfa archwilio ar y foment ar sut buasai'r archwilio yn cael ei wneud, ond dyna'r math o drafodaethau y byddaf i'n eu cael gyda'r swyddfa archwilio.

No, we wouldn't, but having said that, we are discussing the issue with the audit office at the moment, to ensure that the audit arrangements for the Electoral Commission will still work at a UK level with one corporate plan and one budget for the entire UK. So, we're having discussions with the audit office now about how the audit would work, but those are the kinds of discussions I will have with the audit office.

Wrth gwrs, mae'n bwysig i wybod bod Senedd yr Alban, Llywodraeth yr Alban, ar fin cyflwyno deddfwriaeth hefyd a fydd yn cynnwys, o bosib, trefniadau ar gyfer datganoli'r gwaith yma i Senedd yr Alban hefyd, ac mae'r Comisiwn Etholiadol yn awyddus i weld prosesau sydd yn weddol debyg yn yr Alban ac yng Nghymru. Dyw hynny ddim yn dweud bod yn rhaid i hynny fod, ond mae hwn yn rhywbeth lle rŷm ni'n gweithio gyda Llywodraeth a Senedd yr Alban arno hefyd, fel ein bod ni'n gallu rhoi hwn ar waith mewn cyd-destun y speaker's committee a'r Trysorlys hefyd o ran yr arian sy'n deillio sydd yn angenrheidiol i wireddu'r gwaith yma.

And of course it's important to bear in mind that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are about to introduce legislation too that will possibly include arrangements for the devolution of this work to the Scottish Parliament, and the Electoral Commission is very eager to see processes that are relatively similar in Scotland and in Wales. I'm not saying that that has to be the case, but this is something that we are working on with the Scottish Government and Parliament too, so that we can implement this in the context of the speaker's committee and the Treasury in terms of the funding required in order to deliver this work.

The Bill proposes giving the Welsh Ministers some responsibility for electoral law without the need for primary legislation. How can you assure us that there will be sufficient scrutiny of any financial implications?

Well, I think the assurance there lies in the fact that any subordinate legislation that would be brought forward by Welsh Government, if they were to receive this power via primary legislation, then would need to prepare the impact assessments and the explanatory memoranda that would be required by subordinate legislation, and the outline of costs that come with whatever administrative change via these Law Commission recommendations would be made clear at that point. At this point, of course, the Law Commission recommendations are interim recommendations as of 2016 and their final report is yet to come on what they want to recommend and any cost that would be anticipated as a result of those recommendations.

Okay. Well, the explanatory memorandum sets out the policy intention to implement the Law Commission's recommendations, but does not quantify the associated costs. Will at some stage we be given the associated costs?

That's the point that I think I made, that they are interim recommendations at this point and they could change, so that when they actually become final recommendations, there may well be costs outlined by the Law Commission at that point. But the costs, if Welsh Government want to use their subordinate legislation powers to introduce any of those changes, then they do so with the expected impact assessments and costings that would be associated with any subordinate legislation.

Os caf i jest fynd nôl at y Comisiwn Etholiadol am funud, un peth na wnaethom ni ddim holi, wrth gwrs, oedd ynglŷn â threfniadau goruchwylio gwaith y Comisiwn Etholiadol a'r awgrym bod angen pwyllgor newydd i graffu ar waith y comisiwn. Ydych chi'n credu mai dyna'r opsiwn mwyaf addas neu ydych chi'n meddwl y byddai un o bwyllgorau presennol y Cynulliad yn gallu gwneud y job yna?

If I could just go back to the Electoral Commission, one thing we didn't ask was about the oversight arrangements of the Electoral Commission's work and the suggestion that we need a new committee to scrutinise on the work of the commission. Do you think that that is the most appropriate option, or do you think that one of the existing Assembly committees could do that work?

11:05

Wel, dwi heb ddod i unrhyw gasgliad terfynol ar hyn. Mae'r dystiolaeth mae'r pwyllgorau ar hyn o bryd yn ei chymryd ar y mater yna, a'ch barn chi fel y ddau bwyllgor sydd yn ymwneud â hyn—cyllid a chyfansoddiadol—yn mynd i fod yn ddefnyddiol i'w wybod.

Mae gan y Comisiwn Etholiadol farn eu bod nhw'n awyddus i weld unrhyw bwyllgor trosolwg sgrwtini yn cael ei gadeirio gan y Llywydd neu'r Dirprwy Lywydd, oherwydd eu bod nhw'n meddwl fod y rheini'n fwy niwtral yn wleidyddol, oherwydd y gwaith sensitif gwleidyddol etholiadol mae'r Comisiwn Etholiadol yn ymgymryd ag ef, ac i adlewyrchu'r Speaker's Committee. P'un ai a oes angen pwyllgor newydd i wneud hynny, mae hwnnw'n fater arall. Mae'r Comisiwn, wrth gwrs, yn un pwyllgor fan hyn, ac mae gyda ni bwyllgorau posib eraill y gellid fod yn gyfrifol.

Felly, yr hyn fyddwn i'n dweud yw y byddwn i'n awyddus i glywed beth yw'ch barn chi. Rŷch chi fel pwyllgor, er enghraifft, yn gwneud gwaith goruchwylio ar rai cyrff hefyd, felly mae gyda chi brofiad yn hynny o beth. Byddai clywed eich barn chi ar y trefniadau rŷch chi'n credu fyddai'n berthnasol yn ddiddorol ac yn ddylanwadol, ond dwi heb gymryd unrhyw benderfyniad terfynol ar hyn o bryd.

Well, I've yet to come to a final conclusion on this. The evidence the committees are currently gathering on this issue, and your views as the two committees dealing with this, namely finance and the constitutional affairs committees, will be useful to me.

The Electoral Commission has a view that they are eager to see any oversight or scrutiny committee chaired by the Llywydd or the Deputy Llywydd, because they believe them to be more neutral politically, because of the sensitive political work that the Electoral Commission is involved with, and to reflect the Speaker's Committee in that regard. Whether we need a new committee to do that, that's another issue. The Commission, of course, is one committee of this place, and we have other committees where this work could be done.

So, what I would say is that I'd be eager to hear your views. As a committee, for example, you carry out scrutiny work on certain bodies, so you do have experience in that regard. I will look forward to hearing your views on the arrangements that you think will be most appropriate, and that will be most interesting and influential, but I've yet to make a final decision. 

Iawn. Mae'n ddrwg gyda fi fy mod i wedi neidio nôl at hwnna—roeddwn i'n meddwl ei fod e'n bwynt pwysig i'w godi.

Un o'r pethau mae'r pwyllgor yma wastad yn pregethu yw ei bod hi'n arfer dda i sicrhau bod yna graffu ôl-ddeddfwriaethol yn digwydd. Does yna ddim darpariaeth ar gyfer hynny yn yr hyn rŷch chi'n gynnig. Ydy hynny’n rhywbeth y byddech chi'n ystyried ei gynnwys?

Thank you. Sorry that I jumped back to that, but I thought it was an important point to note.

One of the things that this committee always preaches about is that it's good practice to ensure that there is post-implementation scrutiny that's conducted. There's no provision for that in what you propose. Is that something that you would consider including?

Does gyda fi ddim gwrthwynebiad mewn egwyddor i graffu ôl-ddeddfwriaethol. Dwi'n agored i hynny os ydy e'n fater mae'r pwyllgor yn credu sy'n bwysig. Dwi'n deall y safbwynt dŷch chi'n gwneud. Mae'r symiau, efallai, sy'n rhan o'r costau i'r Mesur yma dipyn yn llai na'r symiau sydd yn gysylltiedig â nifer o wahanol agweddau o ddeddfwriaeth sydd yn dod drwy'r lle yma. Felly, mae hwnna'n un mater efallai y byddech chi eisiau ystyried os byddech chi'n cyflwyno argymhelliad o'r math yna, o ran bod yn proportionate i beth yw cynnwys y Mesur penodol yma. 

I have no opposition in principle to post-legislative scrutiny. I'm open to that if it is an issue that the committee believes to be important. I understand your views. The figures included in the costs for this Bill are quite a bit lower than the costs of various other aspects of legislation that comes through this place. So, that is one issue perhaps that you may want to consider if you were to make such a recommendation, in terms of being proportionate in relation to the content of this particular Bill.

Iawn. Oes yna unrhyw gwestiynau pellach gan Aelodau? Na, dŷn ni'n hapus. Iawn. A gaf i ddiolch i'r Llywydd a'r swyddogion am ddod atom ni i roi tystiolaeth i ni? Fe gewch chi, wrth gwrs, gopi o'r trawsgrifiad, fel sy'n arferol, i sicrhau bod hwnnw'n gywir. Diolch o galon i chi am ddod atom ni. 

Fine. Do Members have any further questions? No, everyone's content. Could I thank the Llywydd and the officials for joining us this morning to give us evidence? You'll have a copy of the transcript, as is usual, to ensure that that is accurate. Thank you very much again for joining us. 

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Mi wnawn ni fel pwyllgor nawr symud i sesiwn breifat. Felly, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi), dwi'n cynnig bod y pwyllgor yn gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ydy Aelodau'n fodlon â hynny? Ydyn. Dyna ni. Diolch yn fawr. Fe symudwn ni i sesiwn breifat, felly. Diolch. 

We will as a committee go into a private session. So, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Yes. Thank you very much, we will go into private session. Thank you.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:08.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:08.

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